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Wednesday, October 04, 2017

EU or independence

The EU helpfully clarifies the situation for Catalonia:
European Union officials have ruled out helping to mediate the clash between Spain's government and Catalan officials over Catalonia's upcoming independence referendum.

European Parliament President Antonio Tajani said at an EU summit in Estonia on Friday that the dispute is "a Spanish problem in which we can do little. It's a problem of respecting Spanish laws that Spaniards have to resolve."

Catalan officials, including the mayor of Barcelona, have asked the EU to mediate the tense standoff ahead of Sunday's planned vote that Spanish authorities say is illegal.

Tajani says the EU is maintaining its support of Spain's government because "on a legal level, Madrid is right." He says: "I think it's important to talk on a political level after Monday."

The EU has said Catalonia will be ejected from the bloc, if it declares independence.
And now we'll be able to discover if the Catalonians really want to be independent, or if they just wanted a direct line to EU largesse.

Labels: ,

95 Comments:

Blogger Gloriam Deo October 04, 2017 5:54 PM  

Given the course of the rest of Europe, I would not be surprised if the Catalonian government backs down, but the Catalonian people react poorly to that. Once a population has experienced what they just experienced, there is at least a temporary backlash. This should be interesting to watch. Grab the popcorn, it's going to be a long one.

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable October 04, 2017 5:56 PM  

Best timeline. Everything is getting so clarified.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 04, 2017 6:16 PM  


The EU has said Catalonia will be ejected from the bloc, if it declares independence.


Well. Didn't see that coming. Wonder if Madrid knew of this in advance?

The Basques, Corsicans and northern Italians can't be too happy with this statement, either.

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable October 04, 2017 6:17 PM  

I've always assumed it was the latter, so break out the popcorn and let's see.

Blogger Abdul October 04, 2017 6:17 PM  

During the first Quebec referendum debate, the banks created quite effective news imagery for the establishment by moving money very publicly in armoured cars from Montreal to Toronto.

Anonymous Überdeplorable Psychedelic Cat Grass October 04, 2017 6:20 PM  

OT: The security guard that took on Paddock was unarmed. Also, the door was barricaded, hence the need to blow it off its hinges. Apparently Paddock saw him approaching via the camera he set up outside and popped him.

My money is on Cataluña staying. Now that the EU isn't there to back them up they'd rather not eat grass.

Blogger Chent October 04, 2017 6:23 PM  

And now we'll be able to discover if the Catalonians really want to be independent, or if they just wanted a direct line to EU largesse.

Of course, the latter. But only less than 50% of Catalan people.

"The EU has said Catalonia will be ejected from the bloc, if it declares independence."

File this under "Obvious things". The European Union is an agreement between States. If you stop being part of one EU State, you stop being part of the European Union. The same way, if there is an agreement between political parties and you stop belonging to one of the political parties, you stop being part of the agreement.

Of course, you can reapply as a new State: to the EU, to NATO, to United Nations, to OECD, etc. You start from scratch: this is what "a New State" means.

Hence, if Spain does not vet you, you can re-enter as a Catalan state to the European Union some years from now. Meanwhile, all the banks will have fled your territory, because they won't be backed by the European Central Bank if their see is not located inside the EU. The same way, many companies will move their see to Madrid to remain inside Spain and the European Union (the way Oryzon biotech company has done today, increasing 35% the value of their actions, if I am not mistaken).

This is really obvious, but Catalan secessionist leaders want to fool people and they say once and again that they are going to remain inside the European Union.

Former Catalan president Artur Mas said once "Europa is not interested in losing seven million of Catalan people. So they will find a way. That's their problem" (they have a huge arrogance, as if Catalonia was the center of Europe, instead of a corrupted Southern European country, with public debt qualified as a "junk debt" and approaching the level of Rwanda http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/10/04/59d54a7fca47417a208b4686.html)


Ceterum censeo EU esse delendam

Blogger GraceIronwood October 04, 2017 6:25 PM  

The EU is in favour of making regions from Nations in general.

Anonymous Reenay October 04, 2017 6:29 PM  

Indeed... Catalonians, choose ye this day who you will serve. As a man cannot have two masters, neither can a nation.

Anonymous krymneth October 04, 2017 6:33 PM  

"Do not calle up That which you can not put downe."

For all that we sometimes speak as if the world is entirely dictated by elites, history shows they can start processes that they can't end.

And I am skeptical anytime politicians make a claim about the future that will cost them something. Will the EU really evict Catalan if push comes to shove, and forgo the power and money that flows through it? The talk is cheap now, but will the talk stay the same when it gets expensive? Maybe so, but I'm still skeptical on general principles. Right now the still-medium term prospect of losing Catalan may be outweighed by the long term prospect of losing other polities, but as the Catalan loss becomes a short-term concern can they hold the line?

Blogger ZhukovG October 04, 2017 6:40 PM  

This is something the EU should have made clear before the vote. Of course had Madrid been more accommodating and less reactionary the vote could have been postponed until details like this were made clear to the voters.

In a more civilized time King Alfonse would have his Prime Minister Punished. Beheading would be fair, since in the case of the current PM that is clearly not a vital organ.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 04, 2017 6:49 PM  

Can the EU take Puerto Rico if they lose Catalan?

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 04, 2017 6:54 PM  

A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents wrote:

The EU has said Catalonia will be ejected from the bloc, if it declares independence.


Well. Didn't see that coming. Wonder if Madrid knew of this in advance?

The Basques, Corsicans and northern Italians can't be too happy with this statement, either.


This is known since ever, and was on the front pages of Spanish newspapers since 2012 at least. A former president of the EU Parliament, Catalan, former Economics Minister, Aerospace Engineer used that fact as one of his main reasons against secession back then.

The example is Algeria, got out of the EEC and of France at the same time when it became independent.

And that information was given on one of the first posts in this series about "How to talk International Politics and prove you are an ignoramus".

Putos guiris...

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar October 04, 2017 6:55 PM  

Right now the Spanish nation is very, very angry, and the people loyal to Spain in Catalonia are waking up fast.

I do hope that the separatist rats are correctly eliminated, and their propaganda network, brutally dismantled. ;)

Today, while Puigdemont was delivering an official televised message at 9, you could hear a huge "cacerolada" (people beating pots and pans at the windows), similar to the one you heard while the King was speaking the day before.

This is where VD is totally mistaken. I explained it to him and he couldn't see it. Nations are not objective entities, they are creations of will. Of course, will is also determined by objective factors such as language, race, etc., but will is what makes a nation.

And the Spanish nation is INSIDE Catalonia in the form of the will of many Catalans to be Spanish. Catalonia will not separate without imploding and going through a civil war. As happens with all revolutions, by the way.

Blogger Lazarus October 04, 2017 6:58 PM  

Abdul wrote:During the first Quebec referendum debate, the banks created quite effective news imagery for the establishment by moving money very publicly in armoured cars from Montreal to Toronto.

Performance art is a form of rhetoric.

Corporations can also afford to engage in a capital strike, where they simply do not invest in X area until the political authority is an amenable authority.

Blogger darkdoc October 04, 2017 7:03 PM  

Can the EU take Puerto Rico if they lose Catalan?

I like the way you think.

Anonymous Steve October 04, 2017 7:04 PM  

And now we'll be able to discover if the Catalonians really want to be independent, or if they just wanted a direct line to EU largesse

Obviously the latter, though probably without the largesse bit, at least not in the way many folks might assume.

I might be wrong, but I don't think Catalonia (as a well heeled region of an affluent Member State) gets much or anything in the way of net cash transfers out of the EU trough these days. Nor can they ever reasonably expect to get more from the EU pot than they put in.

Since the last tranche of enlargement, regional funds have mostly shifted East. Only Extremadura is classed as a "less developed region" in Spain.

What EU membership in its own right would mean for Catalonia is direct access for its parasite political class to many, many more platinum-plated sinecures in the Euro institutions. Brussels, and to a lesser extent Luxembourg and Strasbourg, resemble the Bureaucracy Planet Isaac Asimov envisaged in FOUNDATION. (Or I might be thinking of Johan Kalsi).

Either way, it's an earthly paradise for people with no real skills, but who fancy living like Bourbon Kings on the basis of their vague alleged competencies in "coordinating", "enabling", or "advising" things.

And that is a very sweet gig indeed. Plus, their top pols would get invited to all the gratifying summits and dinners and photo ops with other "world leaders".

It remains a huge temptation for the SNP in Scotland, who speak longingly of "wur ain place at the European table!". That table being a gilded all-you-can eat buffet lavishly funded by taxpayers and waited on by obsequious flunkies, where the grotesquely mediocre fart and LARP as masters of the universe.

I don't reckon the EU will expel Catalonia. Expansionism is written into the EU's DNA. To lose Barcelona, and while the wounds of Brexit are still open, is unthinkable to these people.

That's why they're saying stuff like "on a legal level, Madrid is right." and "I think it's important to talk on a political level after Monday."

This isn't the door slam the Spaniards would be hoping for. Madrid's truculence will be a problem for the EU, but some sort of tawdry deal is likely to be worked out.

Anonymous zebedee October 04, 2017 7:06 PM  

The issue of EU membership was also raised during the Scottish Referendum. But of course separatist shysters (and I include the hardline brexiteers in this category) always promote the "They need us too much. You'll see, they'll have to give us everything we want" fantasy.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 04, 2017 7:13 PM  

@12
And that information was given on one of the first posts in this series about "How to talk International Politics and prove you are an ignoramus".

You quoted the EU president on this topic? Link or it didn't happen.

@13
This is where VD is totally mistaken. I explained it to him and he couldn't see it. Nations are not objective entities, they are creations of will

You "explained" something he already knew, that many other commenters here already knew. Meanwhile totally confusing "proscriptive" with "descriptive".

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 04, 2017 7:15 PM  

Alvin von Diaspar wrote:Right now the Spanish nation is very, very angry, and the people loyal to Spain in Catalonia are waking up fast.

I do hope that the separatist rats are correctly eliminated, and their propaganda network, brutally dismantled. ;)

Today, while Puigdemont was delivering an official televised message at 9, you could hear a huge "cacerolada" (people beating pots and pans at the windows), similar to the one you heard while the King was speaking the day before.

(...)



In my street there has been a mini confrontation, with the fanatic old lady that every night gives us the serenade at 2200 (per la Independència!) reproaching some neighbors, then girl replied to her with something about "Freedom of speech".

After a while, another Separatist said something about verbal abuse, a "¡Viva la Legión!" was heard, Separatist went back inside.

Heartwarming night, this one.

I would not be so optimistic about sepa-rats getting their due, however.

Blogger VD October 04, 2017 7:18 PM  

The Basques, Corsicans and northern Italians can't be too happy with this statement, either.

You're wrong. The northern Italians very much want out of the EU.

Basta bugie, no UE!

Anonymous NadieEpera October 04, 2017 7:20 PM  

A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents wrote:@12

And that information was given on one of the first posts in this series about "How to talk International Politics and prove you are an ignoramus".

You quoted the EU president on this topic? Link or it didn't happen.

@13

This is where VD is totally mistaken. I explained it to him and he couldn't see it. Nations are not objective entities, they are creations of will

You "explained" something he already knew, that many other commenters here already knew. Meanwhile totally confusing "proscriptive" with "descriptive".


Ete guiri no s'a enterao que ezo de la nasión de leye, no de hombre, lo inventaro ello.

¡Pisha! Parese que tié tiempo y etá tayudito, azí que ha sabe, a bucá. Zino, e lo buque tu padre, zi lo conose.

Conio, ete e el zegundo que zale con los de procritaiv y decritaiv. No, zi parese que le vaya a hase u'exame y tó.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer October 04, 2017 7:25 PM  

I don't reckon the EU will expel Catalonia. Expansionism is written into the EU's DNA. To lose Barcelona, and while the wounds of Brexit are still open, is unthinkable to these people.

That's why they're saying stuff like "on a legal level, Madrid is right." and "I think it's important to talk on a political level after Monday."


Precisely. Anyone who is paying attention knows the EU would accept any and all petitioners. When your only principal is power you will accept anyone who is asking to be subjugated.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents October 04, 2017 7:28 PM  

@21NadieEpera

vay' 'e' chonayta' Sov law' latlh commenters naDev chonayta' Sov, ghaH QIj SoH. meanwhile "proscriptive" ghaH "descriptive" totally mIS.

vay' wItI'nISmo' Daghaj.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 04, 2017 7:31 PM  

@20 VD
You're wrong. The northern Italians very much want out of the EU.

That would be quite interesting for a lot of reasons.

Anonymous NadieEpera October 04, 2017 7:31 PM  

Grasioso, er guiri. Ezo que ecribió que no me lería nunca má. Poca palabra tiene, malaje.

Anonymous Whitey Whiteman III October 04, 2017 7:37 PM  

>Cataluña

Is this gonna get the Moammar Khaddaphi treatment, ala Sailer?

Blogger Servant of the Chief October 04, 2017 7:48 PM  

Been a few years since University, but as I recall from my EU law classes, the law stipulates that any country that secedes from an existing EU member state has to apply to the EU as if it were an entirely new country seeking admission from the bloc. Technically it is an ejection but its more a method of the EU reintegrating territory with new treaty arrangements. Someone who is more familiar with it please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that's standard procedure, Scotland would have had to go through the same thing if it seceded from the UK.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 04, 2017 7:53 PM  

Servant of the Chief wrote:Been a few years since University, but as I recall from my EU law classes, the law stipulates that any country that secedes from an existing EU member state has to apply to the EU as if it were an entirely new country seeking admission from the bloc. Technically it is an ejection but its more a method of the EU reintegrating territory with new treaty arrangements. Someone who is more familiar with it please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that's standard procedure, Scotland would have had to go through the same thing if it seceded from the UK.

Yes, that is the standard procedure, more or less. Exit from union is guaranteed, and there are practical reasons for that, like the continuation of the EU.

Anonymous Clay October 04, 2017 8:32 PM  

Servant of the Chief wrote:Been a few years since University, but as I recall from my EU law classes, the law stipulates that any country that secedes from an existing EU member state has to apply to the EU as if it were an entirely new country seeking admission from the bloc. Technically it is an ejection but its more a method of the EU reintegrating territory with new treaty arrangements. Someone who is more familiar with it please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that's standard procedure, Scotland would have had to go through the same thing if it seceded from the UK.

Well, we just launched an artillery attack on Fort Sumter. More specifically, the ships trying to re-supply them.

We TOLD them to GTFO....they didn't listen.

I still think this Catalonia crap reminds me of the Confederacy.

Blogger Desdichado October 04, 2017 8:44 PM  

The only thing Alvin von Diaspor had demonstrated is that he's not a Catalonian. I don't know why anyone would take the word of a Castilian imperialist over that of a Catalonian about the matter of Catalonia.

Anonymous NinguNoEnsEspera October 04, 2017 8:49 PM  

Osti tu! Aquest tiu si que sap.

Blogger Lazarus October 04, 2017 8:59 PM  

One interesting thing about other languages is that they sound so interesting until they are translated, and then it is just the same crap people say in English.

Most disappointing.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 04, 2017 9:05 PM  

Yeah, it is so a waste having so many languages when all we could use only Spanish.

Blogger Lazarus October 04, 2017 9:06 PM  

Una cosa interesante sobre otros idiomas es que suenan tan elegante hasta que se traducen, y entonces es apenas la misma gente de la mierda dicen en inglés.

Más decepcionante.

Blogger Ransom Smith October 04, 2017 9:10 PM  

I still think this Catalonia crap reminds me of the Confederacy.
That's one of the reasons why Southerners tend to be skeptical of the official Spanish position.

Anonymous Roundtine October 04, 2017 9:10 PM  

If Catalonia is ejected, then I guess they don't owe any of the euro debt incurred by Spain. Are we sure Catalonia and Spain aren't scamming the EU?

Anonymous NadieEspera October 04, 2017 9:12 PM  

Hay un error grave de traducción ahí. Y soy tan capullo que no lo voy a decir.

Blogger Lazarus October 04, 2017 9:19 PM  

One of the things pushing these secession movements is the fact of population increase allowing for more countries that are viable units. There at least 120 sovereign countries in the world with the same or lesser population of that of Catalonia. The fact that Catalonia could survive economically and legally as a separate country goes a long way to creating incentive to do so.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents October 04, 2017 9:19 PM  

@38 NadieEspera

Es ist ein schwerwiegender Fehler der Übersetzung gibt. Und ich bin ein Kokon, also sage ich es wird nicht.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 04, 2017 9:20 PM  

Or to put it another way

Hi ha un error greu de traducció allà. I jo sóc un capoll, així que no dir-ho.

Blogger Lazarus October 04, 2017 9:20 PM  

NadieEspera wrote:Hay un error grave de traducción ahí. Y soy tan capullo que no lo voy a decir.

tomarlo con google

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 04, 2017 9:22 PM  

@38 Lazarus
There at least 120 sovereign countries in the world with the same or lesser population of that of Catalonia.

Nightmare fuel for globalists. A multipolar world is bad enough for them.

Anonymous Eduardo October 04, 2017 9:24 PM  

@Lazarus

I think ... "más" is not what Google think it is. I think "Demasiado" is the correct word.

Maybe "Mucho Decepcionante" might be the spot.

Actually, Latin-languages and English have similar ways of building phrases, that is why we seen to speak in similar ways. But I bet there are some crazy stuff going on other languages XD.

Blogger Orthodox October 04, 2017 9:25 PM  

Nightmare fuel for globalists.

What's the nightmare? Break nations into component states and crush them under transnational government.

Anonymous Eduardo October 04, 2017 9:28 PM  

@39

No .. he is not a cocoon XD.

He is saying is he is an Imbecile, maybe a Jack-ass.

Or maybe he is Trolling and "capullo" is really just meant to be cocoon.

Blogger Lazarus October 04, 2017 9:29 PM  

Orthodox wrote:Nightmare fuel for globalists.

What's the nightmare? Break nations into component states and crush them under transnational government.


The component states can always form voultary and temporary alliances for protection from transnationalism.

Anonymous NadieEpera October 04, 2017 9:30 PM  

Confiá en gúguel, malaje, confiá.

Anonymous Eduardo October 04, 2017 9:30 PM  

@44

In the case of Europe that is very likely what they will do.

Smaller nations, means smaller armies and more bureaucrats. Perfect for a MultiNational Organization like the EU.

Anonymous Eduardo October 04, 2017 9:34 PM  

@Lazarus

Assuming the bureaucrats are nationalists...

But are they?

@47

For real dude, the spanish schtick isn't even all that impressive, and you say so little with no fun-effect... DOesn't even tickle my Multicultural bone!



Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 04, 2017 9:34 PM  

@44
What's the nightmare? Break nations into component states and crush them under transnational government.

Think it through. What is the crushing tool, where does it come from?

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 04, 2017 9:34 PM  

Smaller nations, means smaller armies and more bureaucrats.

Why?

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 04, 2017 9:36 PM  

Ni ĉiuj devus uzi la anglan.

Blogger Lazarus October 04, 2017 9:37 PM  

NadieEpera wrote:Confiá en gúguel, malaje, confiá.

mierda mocoso

I sincerely apologise if guguel did not translate you correctly, but you said to trust it, so there you go.

Anonymous Eduardo October 04, 2017 10:04 PM  

@51

Basically, I am thinking that these smaller nations will have to Cover the base of the Federal Government. Some may have smaller parliaments so they will probably increase the number of representatives which will highlight differences among regions within the smaller State.

Now you have a parliament that is on a grid-lock based on tiny region predilections, without saying your country may not even be self-sufficient and it might be dependant on a Pro-EU State. It is kind of Like Uruguay and the South of Brazil. If the South of Brazil says no to them, the country goes under.

If the EU wants your economy... it is all over, especially if your new parliament are a bunch of pro-EU people.

If you have a Vulture like the EU waiting to eat you better not be all alone and weak.

Anonymous NadieEpera October 04, 2017 10:27 PM  

Zi eto zupiera lo que m'importa zu opinió...

Anonymous VFM #6306 October 04, 2017 10:31 PM  

Spain really stepped in it, then. It should have been nearly impossible to make the secessionists appear to be the rational ones, yet they somehow pulled it off. Andele!

Anonymous Eduardo October 04, 2017 10:33 PM  

Z instead of S?

So I am guessing you are not Iberian...

Zupiera is Italian Apparently.

Somebody skipped his spanish classes XD.

Blogger Silly but True October 04, 2017 10:34 PM  

Blood shed for the cause is not going back into the body.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 04, 2017 10:44 PM  

Yes, you skipped your Spanish classes, or you were not taught in the Iberian dialects, listo, que eres un listo.

Anonymous Eduardo October 04, 2017 10:52 PM  

@59

Yeah, I skipped them... Had so few XD. Just the thought of relearning a similar Grammar to Portuguese killed any Spanish Boner I had. But I can understand somewhat Spanish.

So an Iberian dialect huh?

Didn't know that one, thought the Spanish people here spoke the same Spanish as Spain with some minor variation.

But still, why did we change the letter?!? The sound is the same XD.

Vivendo e apredendo...

Anonymous map October 04, 2017 10:53 PM  

On what side was Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War?

Blogger AdognamedOp October 04, 2017 10:57 PM  

Yini ezweni elikhulu, elibanzi lemidlalo eliqhubekayo?

Anonymous map October 04, 2017 11:02 PM  

OT:

The more I think about this, the more everything looks suspiciously like an FBI or some government op gone sideways.

Paddock was acting as a confidential informant inside a Philippine terror cell. His background is one that would be very useful to said terror cell...extensive Las Vegas and Philippine travel, millionaire real estate investor, IRS accountant, pilot, and so thoroughly clean-cut American that it would not raise any red flags. His estrangement from his family meant no family commitments to get in the way of the op long term so he can easily play the role of a lonely American businessman seeking love in the Philippines...essentially attracting the kind of honeypots terror cells use to rope useful idiots.

Once the honeypot was convinced that this was a fool to be turned, Paddock went on to play the role to the hilt. The FBI or whomever directed him to set up the scene, bring in all of the weapons and ammo and wait until the terrorist parties showed up. The idea was to identify and arrest...but something went wrong. The terrorists killed him and proceeded to massacre the people before Paddock could signal for his buddies to swarm.

The amount of ammo and weapons that were brought was not to use entirely on the crowd. The terrorists told him that they needed these for close-quarter combat to get out of the hotel. The bump-stock was used instead of getting full-auto because they wanted to keep the weapons purchased without too much paperwork, and the silencers would at least help in preventing law-enforcement from localizing gunfire when the terrorists are trying to escape.

The terrorists probably lied to him about how many were going to show up and what they were going to do. Paddock probably got suspicious and jumpy when the requisite number of people did not show and he was probably asking too many questions about the lack of personnel or equipment needed to execute the attack as originally planned. The terrorists killed him and then jumped the timeline for when they would start attacking, taking the FBI or whomever by surprise.

The key point to keep in mind is that Paddock rented both the suite and the adjoining hotel room. That hotel room has no common door between itself and the suite. Entry and exit would have to be through the hallway, which would be monitored by cameras, unless said cameras were turned off or disabled somehow. This hotel room probably had agents monitoring what Paddock was doing. The window was taken out so that Paddock could signal by hand or some other device that the attack was imminent. The windows that were destroyed on both ends would allow line-of-sight for signalling.

Then the massacre started and the FBI or whomever was taken completely by surprise. They probably fired through the window to distract anyone from localizing the gunfire at Paddock's hotel room, which delayed the response. The FBI may have staged further distractions elsewhere, which is why we get multiple reports of multiple gun shots going off. When they finally took over from the local police, they probably delayed the breach into Paddock's hotel suite to give enough time for the terrorists and the FBI to clear out before the cops arrived. That's why we hear police waiting 72 minutes before they go in.

Basically, the FBI or whomever screwed up. They had to let this massacre go through and set up the scene as a lone wolf or else they would be responsible for the worst massacre since Waco, Texas.

The key to unraveling this mystery is simply to ask for all of the hotel footage on that floor along with any entry/exit points in the service area. If this information is not forthcoming or if it is delayed or edited, then my story increases in plausibility.




Anonymous Mandos October 04, 2017 11:56 PM  

Now that's what I call a tl;dr post on Catalonia's independence showdown.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 05, 2017 12:03 AM  

@54 Eduardo
Basically, I am thinking that these smaller nations will have to Cover the base of the Federal Government.

What Federal Government?

It is kind of Like Uruguay and the South of Brazil. If the South of Brazil says no to them, the country goes under.

Which hurts the South of Brazil as well, no?

Look at the Wisegrad group. That may be one future path for small countries.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 05, 2017 12:04 AM  

Eduardo
thought the Spanish people here spoke the same Spanish as Spain with some minor variation.

o_0!

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 05, 2017 12:18 AM  

Speaking of Southern Brazil, catalan vote inspires Brazillian separatists.

Residents of Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Catarina and Parana states are being called to vote in an informal plebiscite on Oct. 7 on whether they want independence. Organizers are also urging residents of the three states to sign a legislative proposal for each of their regional assemblies that would call for a formal, binding referendum. The non-profit group "The South is My Country" aims to mobilize a million voters in 900 out of the region’s 1,191 cities.

Not gonna happen because Brazilian Constitution, but there it is. Fragmentation just like in northern Italy and other places.

Anonymous Looking Glass October 05, 2017 12:37 AM  

@67 A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents

I saw a skin-tone distribution map of Brazil recently, and, lo & behold, it's the southern states wanting to leave. The fair skinned region. Another case of "White Flight". (Actually, there's some interesting trends in their crime stats recently.)

Definitely "something in the air" that's pushing a lot of groups to segment away from each other.

As to Catalonia, I get the feeling the EU finally came out with this statement because it was going to be a problem going forward. Some regions still want to get out of the EU, but it removes the push-pull game a few groups are trying to play.

Anonymous Yann October 05, 2017 12:38 AM  

NobodyExpects:
Yeah, it is so a waste having so many languages when all we could use only Spanish.


I have a slight problem with those arguments that say "it's better to have a common language".

In this blog there's a common language: English. You write half of your messages in Spanish, though, even translating the nick from "NobodyExpects" to "NadieEspera".

In US there's a common language: English. However, you see Spanish people and Spanish newspapers extremely happy to hear how Spanish language is spreading accross the south of the country. And that means that there's not a single common language anymore, which is supposedly a waste, but that doesn't matter because the new language is Spanish.

So the problem with these kind of arguments is that they are not really honest, what they really mean is "it's better to have my language as a common language"

I've had this kind of debate before, and I used to answer the same way: "Fine, let's have a common language, let's use English as the common language in Spain, and we even avoid learning English as a second language". The answer is always "No". Well, that says it all.

Anonymous Yann October 05, 2017 12:58 AM  

VoxDay:
And now we'll be able to discover if the Catalonians really want to be independent, or if they just wanted a direct line to EU largesse.


Nobody knows.

We can hope for the best, but at the end of the day it's just to toss a coin. It's easy to know what's the motivation for independence: people from Catalonia ('from', not 'in'), or people in from the Basque Country, we don't feel part of Spain. That's very clear. However, when it comes to predict what we could do with independence, that's a very different story.

And it's too easy to fool yourself into thinking that it would work as you wish.

Catalonia has a large Muslim population right now. Basque Country doesn't have such a larger population, but it's having quite a nice amount of problems with them, since Basque people are very law-abiding and rule-oriented, and the contrast with Muslims is higher. I would like to think that were we independent, the situations has evolved enough to wake up and think twice before entering the EU. But it's easy to fool yourself here.

At the end of the day, it's a toss of a coin. However, sometimes you must take risks. And if that doesn't change what it's coming to Europe, we'll have to think again and to take even higher risks, because the stakes will be higher and higher each passing year from now on.

Blogger Antony October 05, 2017 1:23 AM  

OT - but there is a Football Lad's Alliance march against islamic extremism on Saturday in London ; http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/tens-thousands-football-fans-head-534311

Anonymous Eduardo October 05, 2017 1:26 AM  

@20 cents

I meant to say Spanish-Speaking-people-of-the-Americas... Let's pretend that is what I wrote XD.

Cents, Many places in order to maintain what they have right now, depend on some Federal Government. Creating a new country out of the old one, there might be increases on Government bureaucracy. It happens... Not all places are libertarian or conservative minded and definately, most politicians are not all that inclined to keep power to a minimun.

I am still at awe at what I wrote XD.

The South of Brazil would definately would be hurt. But do politicians really know any limits when they can get away with it? Maybe they might have already indoctrinated the population so hard, they might be willing to fudged up their businesses if it is for the greater good (mess with the evil "others")

Let me check these Visegrád Groups

About the South wanting to split, the Separatist movement is pretty weak (not yet mainstream), their major argument is that the South pays a huge amount of Taxes and these Taxes go to the Northeastern States. Yes... before you go look at, that is where the mostly non-white people live. As a matter of fact that is the major reason why the Movement even exists. There are separatist movements elsewhere but in the South things are more... Deficitarian.

The problem is that the South is also Very Nationalistic, so it is hard for them to let go of the whole "We are Brazilians" thing. But the Taxes do convert people everyday. Let's see what happens, if the Right-Winger wins, he might straighten up the Taxes, and the South might be happy again.

We will see. Truth is, they are not like any part of the country, their stats are European level in some places, I guess majority of the problems they have is immigrants from the north. If there ever was a vote... I would vote yes, we are just a drain to them, let them keep their Taxes. BUT! The Northeastern Elite is too shitty to ever allow that, they know their states are worthless, sometimes because of them, the Elite, if the South were to Split, or even São Paulo, their gibmedats would end.

@68 Looking

Well it sort of is and it is sort of not. They were always very white from the start and most Non/Less-Whites are not really all that in the mood to go that far South. Too Cold (Like ice falling from the skies cold), and too different from the their homes. As a matter of fact many of them are going back to the Northeast, since the country is in the shitter anyways...

If Race Realism becomes a normal position, we might see the South wanting to expel the Northeastern people.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) October 05, 2017 1:26 AM  

3. A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 04, 2017 6:16 PM
Well. Didn't see that coming.



why not?

practically everything the EU has been doing domestically since 2008 has revolved around keeping the PIIGS ( Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, SPAIN ) propped up on crutches so they can keep paying their bonds off.

if they start defaulting on .gov bonds in the European industrial core, the entire world wide house of cards ( large portions of the "assets" of every first world .gov consist of the bonds issued by foreign nations, in an incestuous back scratching arrangement ) comes down.

do you think Spain or Italy or Greece can plausibly continue to service their debt if they have sub-states seceding?

in the specific case of Spain, in which Catalonia is the most prosperous and productive area of the country, to permit Catalonian secession is to declare immediate default on all outstanding debt.

the Divine Usurers will be having none of that.


i note that Catalonia ratified a Declaration of Autonomy back in 2006
...
and, POST RATIFICATION, had large portions of Law changed on an ad hoc basis by the Spanish Supreme Court.



which means that the entire document ( which the non-Catalonian Spanish who comment here have been appealing to as 'Law' ) is not binding on the people of Catalonia in any way.

because it is a document which THEY never ratified.

funny how the Spaniards keep forgetting to mention that they, also, are ruled by priests in black robes.

they pretend to "Democracy" and the will of the people
...
but it always seems to come down to corrupt judges, banksters and schmucks in the military following orders.


20. VD October 04, 2017 7:18 PM
You're wrong. The northern Italians very much want out of the EU.


and, as with Spain and Greece, the Bankstas want very much to keep them in.

Anonymous Eduardo October 05, 2017 1:27 AM  

Damn ... I messed up the post number... I am sleepy, my bad.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents October 05, 2017 1:44 AM  

Eduardo
I meant to say Spanish-Speaking-people-of-the-Americas... Let's pretend that is what I wrote XD.

o_0 Really? Seriously?

Gramatica

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 05, 2017 1:47 AM  

@72 Eduardo
Cents, Many places in order to maintain what they have right now, depend on some Federal Government.

Heavy on the right now. That can change, quickly.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 05, 2017 1:49 AM  

bob kek mando
but it always seems to come down to corrupt judges, banksters and schmucks in the military following orders.

Well, yeah. It does. I was surprised because fragging Spain to bulk up EU states makes a perverse kind of sense. But if it unzipped the Spanish economy, that would gut the S out of PIGS, and we can't have that.

Anonymous Eduardo October 05, 2017 2:01 AM  

@76

The big problem is: What people will create the new government.

I mean, the Elite just cook-up some stupidity and just creates more problems, usually to serve their desire.

btw, yes the Visegrad group would be a nice solution to keep the EU at bay but, if each region split, one at a time, the EU can dry them up one by one, Thermopilae style.

I guess it is just easier to ban the EU politicians from Europe.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 05, 2017 2:11 AM  

The big problem is: What people will create the new government.

Merkel has decided to import a new people. That's why population replacement matters.

if each region split, one at a time, the EU can dry them up one by one, Thermopilae style.

The EU's power is mainly financial. It has no military worth mentioning.


I guess it is just easier to ban the EU politicians from Europe.


That could happen, but not yet.

Now, go watch que es gramatica up thread. Get yerself an education.

Anonymous Yann October 05, 2017 2:48 AM  

The EU's power is mainly financial. It has no military worth mentioning.

This is changing.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/765942/Brexit-Nick-Clegg-Brussels-EU-Army-Russia-Blacklist

Blogger Galahad78 October 05, 2017 3:29 AM  

I'm quite shocked to read people here surprised about EU's stance, and their statement about a new Catalonian Republic being automatically out of EU: it has been their stance from years now, and they have repeated it also during the weeks leading to the "referendum".

This has been one of our main points of friction with separatists: their stubborn defense of an automatic ingress in EU despite all the statements to the contrary by the same EU.

Anonymous LF October 05, 2017 3:45 AM  

You botched the translation.

Anonymous The Pain in Spain falls Mainly on the Lame October 05, 2017 3:49 AM  

Up next

Catalan expansionists demand Northern (French) Catalonia be "liberated from French oppression" to "join their Catalan brethren to the south"

Extremadura extremists demand independence, campaign called "quixotic" by Madrid

Portugal demands Galicia, claims they "feel uncomfortable having Spain on two sides." The Galicia that's adjacent to Ukraine files complaint with U.N., not realizing that Portugal was referring to the other Galicia.

Basques continue to be Basques.

Blogger Sillon Bono October 05, 2017 3:58 AM  

@21

Pero que chamullas en caló???

Translation: WTF?

Blogger Galahad78 October 05, 2017 4:14 AM  

@70 Yann

Quite funny: I'm Basque and now live in Catalonia. And I do feel Spanish. What does that make me? Not part of Basque and Catalonian people? In your dreams.

Speak properly, please. We already know propaganda tricks.

Blogger Sillon Bono October 05, 2017 4:25 AM  

@85,

It is incredibly difficult to explain how the secessionists control the narrative to people outside of Spain.

Truth is that the "Prime Minister" is an incompetent buffoon and they have no understanding of optics (to avoid anglos from to engage in their "muh freedom" reflex)

I would like someone else other than me explain the abuses made by the catalonian secessionists on the other half of the region who doesn't want to hear anything about their "happy revolution".

I'm sure that everyone involved will cuck, the taxpayer in Spain will take care of the catalonian debt in the end,which I think is the objective here.

map wrote:On what side was Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War?

Catalonia fought for the commies, once they realised Franco was the winning side they sided with Franco. Franco rewarded them for their support instead of giving them free helicopter rides and here we are again with the same shit all over again,at the edge of another civil war.

Blogger AdognamedOp October 05, 2017 4:56 AM  

I am not all up on what exactly this is all about but,.. do these Cats have a legit grievance against the Spanish gov't? Are they being oppressed? Or are they like Spains version of BLM?

Anonymous LF October 05, 2017 5:08 AM  

They are basicaly antifas

Blogger Lazarus October 05, 2017 5:21 AM  

Spain abandoned the Church and procreation then embraced feminism.

It is demographically doomed.

Contenado.

Blogger David Power October 05, 2017 5:22 AM  

Like the Scots, Catalalonians don't want freedom, they just want a change of master.

Blogger Lazarus October 05, 2017 5:46 AM  

David Power wrote:Like the Scots, Catalalonians don't want freedom, they just want a change of master.

It is a type of hypergamy. Staying with a doomed Spain pales in comparison with hooking up with the EU. I don't take the EU's stated position seriously, and neither do the Catalans, apparently.

Blogger Sam Spade October 05, 2017 8:16 AM  

"And now we'll be able to discover if the Catalonians really want to be independent, or if they just wanted a direct line to EU largesse."

SJWADD

Blogger J.M. October 05, 2017 11:42 AM  

Lazarus wrote:Orthodox wrote:Nightmare fuel for globalists.

What's the nightmare? Break nations into component states and crush them under transnational government.


The component states can always form voultary and temporary alliances for protection from transnationalism.


When a company or even a business unit becomes too big, the best way to restore manageability is to split it up in a coherent way. The same thing applies with organizations with totalitarian ambitions like the EU. I think Spain is their playground for the new modus operandi. Will it work or will the genius escape the bottle and get out of their control? Only time will tell.

But everyone who thinks that a world full of little nations will be a peaceful one or even one of little nations allying themselves against the "transnationlists", should return to earth and grab a history book because his current address is in the stratosphere. Little nations alliances normally are short-lived, the only exception were the southern and central nations of Europe that had to fight Islam and more or less fought their important battles united and even in this era Neither England, France or the Dutch to mention a few wasted any opportunity to back stab the Spaniards, germans (holy empire), Italians and many other peoples on the back, for short term gains or plain envy. Alliances last as long as the perception of a common enemy does. So is human nature.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 05, 2017 12:56 PM  

Sillon Bono wrote:@21

Pero que chamullas en caló???

Translation: WTF?


:) At last!

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