ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2018 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Monday, October 23, 2017

Garibaldi's nightmare

Lombardia and the Veneto overwhelmingly vote for autonomous rule:
Two of Italy’s wealthiest northern regions on Sunday voted overwhelmingly in favour of greater autonomy in referenda that took place against the backdrop of Catalonia’s push for independence from Spain.

Voters in the Veneto region that includes Venice and Lombardy, home to Milan, turned out at the high end of expectations to support the principle of more powers being devolved from Rome, officials said. Veneto President Luca Zaia hailed the results, which were delayed slightly by a hacker attack, as an institutional 'big bang' while reiterating that the region’s aspirations were not comparable to the secessionist agenda that has provoked a constitutional crisis in Spain.

Turnout was projected at between 57-61 percent in Veneto, where support for autonomy is stronger, and at around 40 percent in Lombardy. The presidents of both regions said more than 90 percent of voters who had gone to the ballots had, as expected, done so to support greater autonomy.

The votes are not binding but they will give the leaders of the two regions a strong political mandate when they embark on negotiations with the central government on the transfer of powers from Rome to the regions.
Hey, the Lombardi have already got a perfectly good, if rather ugly, castle sitting at the end of the Galleria waiting for a new Duke of Milan to rule over them, although I'd prefer to rule from the Bergamo high city myself. Let's face it, liberal democracy in Europe was pretty much a complete failure across the board even before it turned suicidally pro-immigrant. Italy certainly managed to accomplish a good deal more of lasting value in the age of city-states; post-Garibaldi Italy did little more than produce Fascism and Fiats before getting itself raped twice by Germany.

Labels: ,

45 Comments:

Blogger Sherwood family October 23, 2017 5:16 AM  

I was looking at small states in Europe just yesterday. Liechtenstein, for example, seems a decent country run very competently with reasonable regulations when it comes to immigration and in the way they produce their wealth by noble family. Imagine a U.S. broken up into hundreds of competing city states that could develop their own culture and institutions according to the preferences of the people who live in them who, if they hated it, could vote with their feet and dollars to try to go to some competing city state that seemed more welcoming and attractive. There are worse fates for the country that I could think of. Of course, Italy, in the age before unification, was almost constantly at war somewhere along the Peninsula, so there is that, but if you think of commerce, art, literature, architecture, and science, the Italy of the 15th, 16th, 17th centuries was a much more productive place than the Italy of the 20th century. You contrast that with the vast bloated imperial mess we live in today and realize that the limited government envisioned by the Founders was much closer to 15th Century Italy than to 21st Century America.

Blogger xavier October 23, 2017 5:32 AM  

Vox
What would the increased autonomy entail? Become a political subject that can conclude treaties with othet regions in area of exclusive competency?
xavier

Anonymous Adam October 23, 2017 5:40 AM  

This coupled with the Czech and Austrian elections shows that the tide of European nationalism is beginning to rise. If just one country pulls out of the EU then the dominoes will begin to fall. And it may well happen very fast, like the Berlin Wall.

Blogger pyrrhus October 23, 2017 5:45 AM  

After Italy produced the great Enrico Fermi and some brilliant engineers in the first part of the twentieth century, it seemed to have hit a wall. If Italy breaks up, maybe it would trigger a new Renaissance!

Blogger Koanic October 23, 2017 5:51 AM  

Fascism, Fiats... and Francis.

Blogger FrankNorman October 23, 2017 6:00 AM  

I'm guessing that it was the northern parts of what is now "Italy" that were doing things intellectually and economically in those centuries. Piedmont, Lombardy and Venice.
The Papal States... not so much?
And then Spanish-ruled southern Italy?

So it's going to be the north saying bye-bye, and the south wailing "Noooo! Mah gibsmedats!"

Blogger Ezekiel October 23, 2017 6:04 AM  

Well, there was also Evola. That counts for something I guess.

Blogger Shimshon October 23, 2017 6:29 AM  

So it's going to be the north saying bye-bye, and the south wailing "Noooo! Mah gibsmedats!"

Not exactly:

Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - the most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line"! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha...

DROPS DEAD.

Blogger Sherwood family October 23, 2017 6:34 AM  

Slow clap, Shimshon. Well played.

Anonymous TheHiss October 23, 2017 6:47 AM  

@4. Francis is Argentinian. You can't blame Italy for him.

Blogger ZhukovG October 23, 2017 6:52 AM  

There is no reason for modern first world countries to be governed from an 'Imperial City'.

Therefore the problem must be corrected by inviting hordes of third world invaders from Latin America, or in Europe's case, the Muslim World.

Anonymous Bertram October 23, 2017 6:53 AM  

Will these smaller states be more likely to be anti mass immigration? If not, then there is no real point to this as the third worlders will replace them anyway. If they turn out to be opposed to all immigration, then I say break Europe (and the U.S.) into as many city states as possible!

Blogger Lazarus October 23, 2017 7:01 AM  

Bertram wrote:If they turn out to be opposed to all immigration, then I say break Europe (and the U.S.) into as many city states as possible!

Who gets the nukes?

Anonymous Rocklea October 23, 2017 7:06 AM  

"Who gets the nukes?"

I think Rocketman, so far, is the first successful template of that question.

Anonymous SAK October 23, 2017 7:09 AM  

Pope Francis is the son of an italian immigrant and the daughter of italian immigrants.

So is he Italian, or did the dirt of Argentina transform his father and maternal grandparents?

I'll let you decide.

Anonymous Dave October 23, 2017 7:10 AM  

Fiats bleh. Ducati please

Blogger Sherwood family October 23, 2017 7:53 AM  

"Who gets the nukes?" "Whoever can get the nukes, that's who." And if you have them...you can pretty much guarantee the neighbors and larger countries will leave you alone. Especially, if your country is "born" with them.

Blogger Jack Ward October 23, 2017 7:57 AM  

I stand with the Lombards

[ugly castle or not. Really, some castle is better than no castle. No?]

Anonymous JAMES October 23, 2017 8:29 AM  

The castle is not that ugly.

I live in Australia. We don't have any castles. We have snakes instead.

Would you like some snakes?

Blogger Johnny October 23, 2017 8:37 AM  

Combine some tendency to be generous with the female tendency to be inclusive with the vote buying tendency of the political class and the stew produced is the welfare state. If you make politics very local there will be a renewal of selfishness in that if the guy your money goes to is out on the back porch next door puffing on some 'weed', the enthusiasm for an elaborate handout system goes down. Or if it is an Arab who forces you to listen to his call to prayer so many times a day, and then blocks the street with his rear end in the air, same thing.

I claim no expertise here beyond common experience, but I have been suspicious from the start that maybe it is the welfare state driving this stuff.

Blogger Sherwood family October 23, 2017 8:46 AM  

The problem with large polities is that they practically require the "welfare state." No one can hope to take care of the needs of the poor all by themselves. So we band together via legislation and it creates a permanent welfare class in short order. If we have a small polity, where people know who is really working hard but has fallen on hard times and who is a slacker that is constantly in trouble and we have a mechanism to give to the former and withhold from the latter, then we avoid the bloat that goes with a welfare state. Personal charity is more able to cope, as well, with the difficulties of a small number of indigents in a community. A vast neighborhood of indigents in a large city becomes almost untenable. Small entities tends to be more organic and amenable to the flexibility needed to deal with real world problems. Once the bureaucratic machinery gets involved it is tough to do the smart thing and it becomes easier to do the "legally required" thing.

Anonymous franklinjennings October 23, 2017 9:09 AM  

Bergamasco will again be heard!!!

Anonymous Ledfordbot October 23, 2017 9:12 AM  

The Venetians and Lombards are smarter and more serious than the Catalans. Declaring independence without a) existing substantial self-government (with guns) and/or b) foreign support, is foolish.

Blogger rcocean October 23, 2017 10:29 AM  

The Italians had to combine into one country in order to stop the French, Austo-Hungarians, and British from pushing them around and making Italy a battlefield, They no long have to worry about that. Time to reconstruct the Kingdom of Naples.

Anonymous Humpty Dumpty Parumpty October 23, 2017 10:30 AM  

http://www.eljueves.es/medio/2017/10/23/ikea-alfombrilla_a8e6dfe6.JPG

Anonymous TheTruthIsAlwaysUnacceptable October 23, 2017 10:43 AM  

Italy certainly managed to accomplish a good deal more of lasting value in the age of city-states; post-Garibaldi Italy did little more than produce Fascism and Fiats before getting itself raped twice by Germany.

There is a lot to be said for the competition between the city-states that engendered much of that accomplishment.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 23, 2017 11:11 AM  

@17

Snakes, castles... both are good at keeping invaders away.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 23, 2017 12:09 PM  

@18

"
I claim no expertise here beyond common experience, but I have been suspicious from the start that maybe it is the welfare state driving this stuff."

Ya think????

Take away the welfare state, and ALL of these problems go away

Blogger J.M. October 23, 2017 12:31 PM  

rcocean wrote:The Italians had to combine into one country in order to stop the French, Austo-Hungarians, and British from pushing them around and making Italy a battlefield, They no long have to worry about that. Time to reconstruct the Kingdom of Naples.

You can thank the Pax Americana and the concomitant tutelage of the US over most of the World for that peaceful world... Once that period ends, all bets are off.

OpenID doktorjeep October 23, 2017 12:38 PM  

Having a lady friend from around Milan and learning "a few things" about Italy, I would like to add in that the attitudes between "north and south" in Italy are on the level of that between say the Northeast USA and the Ozarks.

They hate each other.

Now everybody has their reasons and desires. And in neither case why bother to take sides and go into reams of pointless "yeah but you" arguments?

Just have the divorces already.

Blogger VFM #7634 October 23, 2017 1:03 PM  

The Venetians and Lombards are smarter and more serious than the Catalans. Declaring independence without a) existing substantial self-government (with guns) and/or b) foreign support, is foolish.

@21 Ledfordbot
I don't think it's entirely coincidental that the Catalan nationalists are leftist and the northern Italians right-wing. Leftists, after all, are known for shoving the program into place first and dealing with the problems later (cf. Obamacare).

There is a lot to be said for the competition between the city-states that engendered much of that accomplishment.

@24 TheTruthIsAlwaysUnacceptable
Also explains how Europe ran rings around China in the last half-millennium. And yet now they want to make a European superstate...

Blogger Bibliotheca Servare October 23, 2017 1:23 PM  

@JAMES

Okay, I snickered a bit at that one. Lol. And y'all don't just have *snakes* you've got an entire *continent* of creatures from the nightmares of agoraphobic people! Heck, the nightmares of *normal* people, for that matter! It's like God was trying to hint "Don't live here." and the British Empire said "Well, bollocks to that! We'll send our prisoners there!" And now y'all are just too stubborn to leave. (not a criticism, just an observation) :-P

*resumes snickering over "...would you like some snakes?"*

Anonymous TheTruthIsAlwaysUnacceptable October 23, 2017 1:30 PM  

VFM #7634 wrote:Also explains how Europe ran rings around China in the last half-millennium. And yet now they want to make a European superstate...

That is the fundamental problem with socialism/communism, the incentive factor is lost when you don't see the fruits of your labor advance your existence, except for the few geniuses who do it for country. You have to have an incentive and something to push against.

That is why, I believe, communist countries had so many exceptional athletes, especially in world and Olympic competition. It was the one area you could see a reward for your efforts and a definite raise in status.

Blogger Johnny October 23, 2017 1:39 PM  

rcocean wrote:The Italians had to combine into one country in order to stop the French, Austo-Hungarians, and British from pushing them around and making Italy a battlefield...

Although it was more financial than battlefield stuff, same thing with the Germans.

Anonymous Looking Glass October 23, 2017 2:14 PM  

So, "Italy" might become the... Confederated States of Italy at some point.

It seems things work best when you have associated City-States rather than a empirical setup. Probably why the USA worked better when you it took days to send letters. You didn't have to worry about the other idiots that much.

Anonymous Mr. Rational October 23, 2017 2:38 PM  

@32 I guess that's what happens when your society is centered around amore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0EysM1iNMk#t=62

Blogger DonReynolds October 23, 2017 3:39 PM  

The Lombards were Vikings (from Scandinavia) and basically fought their way across Europe to Italy and they ruled what is now Italy from the fall of Rome until Charlemagne came along.

The Republic of Venice was a rather successful trading empire that lasted over 800 years, sometimes called the Stato da Mar (State of the Sea) and Domini da Mar (Domain of the Sea).
The Venetians have had much more of their human history as Venice than as part of the Italian state created by Garibaldi. But the Venetian empire ended with the invasion by Napoleon....like so many others....so it had been gone over 50 years before Garibaldi came along.

Blogger Pteronarcyd October 23, 2017 3:49 PM  

I viewed Italy as a homogeneous nation until I worked in Milan for a week and a half. I was surprised to hear that the people of northern Italy look down upon the people of southern Italy as lazy, while they viewed themselves aligned in character with industrious inhabitants of the former Austro-Hungarian Empire. The fact that I could not find any traditional Italian food -- ie, pasta -- in Milan confirmed to me that our US (Hollywood) perception of Italy is bias toward the south and Rome.

Blogger Magnifico October 23, 2017 4:16 PM  

Pteronarcyd, that's because in the USA, Italian -Americans are almost 100% from Sicily and the boot of Italy. It's not a perception from Hollywood.

Blogger tuberman October 23, 2017 5:18 PM  

Magnifico wrote:Pteronarcyd, that's because in the USA, Italian -Americans are almost 100% from Sicily and the boot of Italy. It's not a perception from Hollywood.


Yes, this seems true, while going to college (and working), I had a friend that I was mentoring. His family was from Southern Italy, and that's all he would talk about when discussing Italy. And another Italian American family I knew (three brothers), their family came from Southern Italy too.

Blogger WynnLloyd October 23, 2017 5:46 PM  

They would have to be after a point, since they would have less territory for invaders to disperse in.

Blogger Meng Greenleaf October 23, 2017 6:58 PM  

Phew..... Rebel, omnibuses I II III, IV V VI, Avalon I II III, and now RPG. Let's hope this is a long-term success :)

Anonymous Post Alley Crackpot October 23, 2017 7:41 PM  

JAMES: "Would you like some snakes?"

AWWWW YISSSSSSSS SNAKES ON A PLANE

Will it be making any stops in Hawaii? :-)

We used to have a castle, couldn't afford the maintenance -- post-war taxation rates pretty much saw to that.

At least Lombardy's castle is still theirs ... if they can keep it.

Blogger Doom October 24, 2017 5:25 AM  

Once the leaders get their pounds of coin or wake with a horse's head in their bed they will sell out the rest. Just gimmickry.

Blogger The Kurgan October 24, 2017 7:35 AM  

VD,
Based on your last sentence alone, your next project should be the issue of history book.
They'd be awesome.

Post a Comment

Rules of the blog
Please do not comment as "Anonymous". Comments by "Anonymous" will be spammed.

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts