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Wednesday, October 25, 2017

Mailvox: Churchian convergence, Senator Cuck, and Generation Rebel

CK discovers that truth is now hate in the eyes of the converged Churchians on Facebook:
Apparently saying that 3 does not equal 1 now qualifies as "hate speech." An episode unfolded yesterday here in town that exposed just how far gone even most conservative evangelicalism is in riding the inclusivity train right off the cliff.

A local Christian women's Facebook group, after a couple months of ambiguity, determined to update their policy to clarify that they were open to Christians only, not unbelievers. My friend politely asked what this did and didn't mean, since there were Mormons in the group as well, who by definition are not monotheists. The group admin *deleted* her comments, then, when confronted, insisted that she had somehow done so by accident.

So my friend dutifully posted again, bending over backwards to coat her words with grace and love, and merely noting that it was important to be clear that Christians and Mormons don't really share the same faith at all, so the group should be simply be renamed for the sake of clarity and accuracy. A Mormon friend of hers cheerfully rejoined and said that actually Mormons are Christians, and another said, “Yeah, we believe the Trinity—three distinct beings in one Godhead, etc.”

My wife piped up briefly to say, "Well, see, that's the problem. Actually Christians don't believe in three distinct beings" and quoted from the Athanasian Creed. One of the Mormons responded fairly defensively seeking to justify the Mormon view from Scripture.

At that point, the group admin shut down the thread, declaring that it was not glorifying to God, the devil was at work, it was hateful and slanderous, and posted a general rebuke warning people not to debate their beliefs. This was the cue for the other (mostly conservative evangelical) people in the group to pile on and accuse my wife and her friend of "hate speech."
Meanwhile, BP in Arizona is entirely unimpressed with his departing senator:
I know you keep being right on just about everything, but it is still strange and impressive to watch it happen, again and again, exactly as predicted.  Watching Senator Jeff Flake (may God forget he was our countryman) talk about muh principles, while blubbering about all of Trump's failure of character, leadership, etc, ad nauseum, and then quitting, announcing he isn't running for re-election...

Well, you nailed it, exactly, again.  Flake is everything you said conservatives are and have become was illustrated perfectly in that self-important speech, in all its limp-wristed glory.  What an amazing cuck.  It also amazes me that the idiocy he says is self-evidently false, and yet he stands up there and says it anyway, illustrating he's an evil, duplicitous, lying, traitorous bastard, or he's just the stupidest, most egotistical asshole ever.  Arizona is going to be so much better off with him and McCain gone, and so will the rest of the country.

Drain the swamp, and MAGA!
And finally, a woman writes in of her husband's unexpected enthusiasm for Alt★Hero:
So Sig. Other, after over 10 years of mocking me for my mild interest in comics, has not only backed the Alt-Hero campaign at the figurine level, he suggested Rebel as a middle name for our daughter. While the name would be a tribute to his Southern heritage and not the character, he admitted he wouldn't have thought of it if it weren't for Alt-Hero.

Thought you'd be amused. Alt-Hero is changing hearts and minds already.
I am indeed amused. But taken in the whole, it should be readily apparent that across the increasingly divided West we are now caught up in a full-blown culture war. It is still a cold war, in that it is merely livelihoods rather than lives that are being lost, but it is clear that the conflict is gradually heating up.

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206 Comments:

1 – 200 of 206 Newer› Newest»
Anonymous Icicle October 25, 2017 5:48 AM  

Out of all the possible nuttiness with Mormons...it's THAT thing that set them off?

Blogger Felix Bellator October 25, 2017 5:52 AM  

The Flake-Out was an incredible thing. What a pathetic loser. He abandoned his base and then wonders why he is taking in the polls. It must be Trump's fault because it cannot be his own. Did he read something into the Scalise shooting about how serious this is getting because the failure of his fellow travelers? Something that he cannot own up to?

Anonymous Looking Glass October 25, 2017 5:59 AM  

"It is still a cold war, in that it is merely livelihoods rather than lives that are being lost, but it is clear that the conflict is gradually heating up."

It's been noticeable since the Summer that the War-Fighter class on the Right, at least their more public members, are getting less than pleased with the Left. Or more specifically the duplicity of the UniParty. I think the whole Antifa support from DC activated a lot more defensive instincts in the "guys with guns" than the UniParty understands. This trend went right along with increase in support for Trump. Those aren't unrelated.

Blogger James Dixon October 25, 2017 6:12 AM  

> It is still a cold war, in that it is merely livelihoods rather than lives that are being lost, but it is clear that the conflict is gradually heating up

Via Instapundit, even the think tanks of the left have noticed, they they refuse to let the information sink in: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/10/on-safari-in-trumps-america/543288/

Anonymous Stoa October 25, 2017 6:18 AM  

I volunteered for another deployment learning how to insurgent in Kurdistan so I wouldn’t be in the States to do something wild to those poor bastards. Hopefully the swamp drains before I get back or the whole business goes hot and fun becomes legal by default.

Blogger dtungsten October 25, 2017 6:34 AM  

Icicle October 25, 2017 5:48 AM
Out of all the possible nuttiness with Mormons...it's THAT thing that set them off?


Indeed, I've had people tell me that Jehovah's witnesses were not Christians because they *didn't* believe in Trinity.

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 25, 2017 6:37 AM  

Looking Glass wrote:"It is still a cold war, in that it is merely livelihoods rather than lives that are being lost, but it is clear that the conflict is gradually heating up."

It's been noticeable since the Summer that the War-Fighter class on the Right, at least their more public members, are getting less than pleased with the Left. Or more specifically the duplicity of the UniParty. I think the whole Antifa support from DC activated a lot more defensive instincts in the "guys with guns" than the UniParty understands. This trend went right along with increase in support for Trump. Those aren't unrelated.


Part of this is military culture waking up from it's Obama induced malaise.

What with required classes on "consent is sexy" and "White Privilege". To say nothing of Obama's pet freakshow being sent to bootcamp. American military culture felt like it was under siege...because of course, it was.

Identify a target.

Kill it.

Gut it.

Then parade around in it's carcass demanding respect.

U.S. military culture prides itself of submission to civilian authority but it would appear that that has limits after all.

Blogger Sillon Bono October 25, 2017 6:38 AM  

@7

Some of the people we met expressed the conservative-leaning view that changes in society and the family were to blame. One, a technical-skills instructor at the Chippewa Falls school, questioned whether women belonged in the workplace at all. “That idea of both family members working, it’s a social experiment that I don’t know if it quite works,” he said. “If everyone’s working, who is making sure the children are raised right?”

Others expressed more liberal-minded sentiments, seeing insufficient government action as the root of the community’s problems. A school-board official cried as she described the problems plaguing education. A group of middle-class women who met through local activism lamented the area’s lack of diversity and hidden pockets of poverty.


My head almost exploded reading that crap, I love the subtle way in which "more liberal-minded sentiments" is cast on a better light than "conservative-leaning".

They also try to associate "lack of diversity" (too many whites) to poverty.

100% Puke material.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer October 25, 2017 6:38 AM  

The most intriguing part is all the conservatives, who have complained about RINOs for decades, are whining that the GE is getting them to purge themselves. The GE is extremely effective at getting people to show their true nature and intentions.

Anonymous Man of the Atom October 25, 2017 6:50 AM  

Sillon Bono wrote:

My head almost exploded reading that crap, I love the subtle way in which "more liberal-minded sentiments" is cast on a better light than "conservative-leaning".

They also try to associate "lack of diversity" (too many whites) to poverty.

100% Puke material.


It's good though. Both the "researchers" and the Atlantic reporter are "squeezing their findings into the same old mold." Let them continue to do that and continue to misapprehend the reasons for Trump. More votes "left on the table" for us, to paraphrase a comment in the Alt-Hero thread.

So much winning.

Blogger Desdichado October 25, 2017 6:55 AM  

Although it doesn't state a much explicitly, it's clear from the first anecdote that the author's wife believes that the Arians were not Christian.

Maybe the admin who shut down the thread did her a favor before she could embarrass herself with even more historical illiteracy.

Blogger James Dixon October 25, 2017 6:56 AM  

> Both the "researchers" and the Atlantic reporter are "squeezing their findings into the same old mold."

Yep. The evidence of the polarization and the reasons for it were right there in front of them, they saw it, and they refused to comprehend. As our host says, the Alt-Right (by whatever name it comes to be called) is inevitable.

Blogger John M October 25, 2017 7:01 AM  

The only way I would consider a Mormon to be a Christian would be if he denounces Joseph Smith as a heretic and the Book of Mormon as pure crap. Otherwise if Mormons are Christians then so too are Muslims.

Blogger James Dixon October 25, 2017 7:02 AM  

> Maybe the admin who shut down the thread did her a favor...

Not so much her as the entire group. Discussions of the exact nature of the Trinity are probably best left out of general purpose discussions. There's a reason it's called a mystery.

Blogger ZhukovG October 25, 2017 7:05 AM  

Apparently Sen. Flake is opposed to smoking and so hopes to avoid being an offered a cigarette and a sunny wall in front of which to enjoy it.

As for Mormons, well, I can't help but think that the Lord can tolerate a significant amount of doctrinal error before he withholds his grace. In any event, I will not be the one on the throne on Judgement Day.

The Alt-Right continues its advance. Behind their mask of pride and disdain, the stink of fear grows ever more obvious in the Globalist Left.

Ad Victoriam, Ave Imperator Trump!

Anonymous Nick October 25, 2017 7:08 AM  

But will she exclude Jews?

Blogger Sherwood family October 25, 2017 7:15 AM  

As I understand it, our host is a non-Trinitarian Christian. Please correct me if I have stated this in error.

Blogger VD October 25, 2017 7:17 AM  

Only people who belong to a church founded by the Christ Jesus are Christian.

That is false. Take your Roman Catholic propaganda elsewhere and don't come back.

Blogger VD October 25, 2017 7:19 AM  

As I understand it, our host is a non-Trinitarian Christian. Please correct me if I have stated this in error.

I prefer the term Nicene Creed Christian. As opposed to the Constantinian Creed Trinitarian that most Christians who wrongly believe themselves to be in accordance with the Nicene Crred are.

I am always deeply suspicious of anyone and anything that is deceptively labeled.

Blogger pyrrhus October 25, 2017 7:33 AM  

Mormons believe in polygamy (no matter what the "official" positon, adopted to satisfy the Feds, states) and that young children don't have fully developed souls, amongst many heteredox doctrines. Christians? I think not...

Blogger pyrrhus October 25, 2017 7:34 AM  

Flake is popular amongst the liberals in my area of AZ, so I knew he was worthless..

Blogger Nate October 25, 2017 7:40 AM  

"A local Christian women's Facebook group"

That tells you all you need to know. By an large women are far more concerned with what is pleasant and polite than what is good or true.

Anonymous Looking Glass October 25, 2017 7:41 AM  

@10 Man of the Atom & @12 James Dixon

Yup, and I'm quite glad they're incapable of understanding it. Both the "researchers" and the reporter lack the introspection to realize these people were defending their own interests, but that's because neither party doing the "research" has self-interest in being truthful.

"Blind Whores" is a good description of the class of people doing this research.

In days of yore, the thought of having valuable information and not giving it to someone seemed harsh and cruel. Now? You can't logic someone out of blind fealty to a false god. Divine Intervention is the only way most of that lot isn't going to meet a bullet in what's to come.

Anonymous JAG October 25, 2017 7:44 AM  

Trump broke Flake.

Blogger Quilp October 25, 2017 7:54 AM  

Jonah Goldberg having a sad on Townhall made my week. His attempt to deify Buckley was just pathetic. They still can't believe people won't be running back to their book sales out the back of the cuckwagon, or booking passage on the "muh principles" cruise.

Really enjoying SJWADD so far. Sore knee from overdoing the cardio a bit..so I'll finally have time to give it the attention it deserves.

Blogger marco moltisanti October 25, 2017 7:58 AM  

@20:

"Mormons believe in polygamy (no matter what the "official" positon, adopted to satisfy the Feds, states) and that young children don't have fully developed souls, amongst many heteredox doctrines. Christians? I think not..."

I was raised Mormon and consider myself a non-Nicean Christian now. The former statement you made about polygamy in LDS doctrine is true, the latter about children not having fully developed souls is false (perhaps a misunderstanding of the LDS church's rejection of infant baptism).

A lot of you are more knowledgeable on theocracy than me. Can you explain to me why most mainstream Christians consider the Nicean creed a prerequisite for being considered a genuine Christian? I get that seeing the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as separate beings is a pretty essential difference from mainstream Christians, but it seems like a view that could be supported from the Bible depending on your interpretation. I've never been able to understand why the view that was decided on in a counsel called hundred of years after the death of the apostles by a pagan emperor with worldly, political motives is considered a central pillar of Christian belief.

Blogger Nate October 25, 2017 7:59 AM  

I would remind everyone who's getting all bowed up over the Trinity... christians have been fighting over this for 2000 years. Most of the men we call saints today were curses as heretics in their day... primarily over this issue.

Blogger Nate October 25, 2017 8:00 AM  

And of all the things to site as disqualifying the mormon church as christian... their view of the Trinity is way down the list.

The fact is the Mormon church is precisely like Islam... founded on the claim that the Christian Church had screwed everything up so much... that God needed a do-over.

Blogger Dire Badger October 25, 2017 8:06 AM  

pyrrhus wrote:Mormons believe in polygamy (no matter what the "official" positon, adopted to satisfy the Feds, states) and that young children don't have fully developed souls, amongst many heteredox doctrines. Christians? I think not...

Right, and they practice Human sacrifice and devil worshipping in secret rooms in the temple.

Are you completely fecking cracked? or did you just get ahold of some bad weed? I was Mormon for damned near fifteen years, on many levels, and NEVER heard something as stupid as 'children have unformed souls'.

In short, I am calling you a liar, and calling you out. Prove it, from a MORMON source, not some anti-lds propaganda site.

And yes, one of the reasons I left was because I consider polygamy to be anti-civilizational, and the book of mormon to be utter fiction. But along with their many flaws, they are also one of the few protestant sects still holding the line against convergence, and thus are a hell of a lot more 'Christian' than Episcopalian lesbian transgender priests and Pope Francis the heretic.

Anonymous Avalanche October 25, 2017 8:10 AM  

@2 "t must be Trump's fault because it cannot be his own. Did he read something..."

Why yes, he read "What Went Wrong" -- and since Death Grandma is getting press (and a facelift?) -- he thought maybe trying to blame his own horrors on everyone/anyone else, it might work for him!

Blogger Markku October 25, 2017 8:13 AM  

Yes, there is a reason. I'm deleting them. Catholic go home.

Blogger Duke Norfolk October 25, 2017 8:14 AM  

Nate wrote:christians have been fighting over this for 2000 years.

You mean we're not going to resolve all the internecine doctrinal disputes here in the comment section of a blog? Oh darn.

I was so looking forward to the 2000 comments that would so succinctly deal with all of this, once and for all. Just think of how many people would be enlightened and humbly accept the position of others.

Anonymous Looking Glass October 25, 2017 8:15 AM  

@28 Nate

And the entire issue boils down to applying a human-centric point of view to the Divine, a nature beyond our ability to wholly grasp. (God is 1 and God is 3, and the problem is that to a human that can't be true. Well, we're the created, not the creator.)

Though some form of Trinitarianism is necessary. Anyone that's gone away from it has gone rolling off the deep end in short order. Mostly because once you start arguing about who you should be worshiping, you're going to lose the plot.

Blogger VD October 25, 2017 8:15 AM  

Yes. Take the Catholic performance art somewhere else. I do not tolerate recreations of the 30 Years War here. If you want to defend the Roman Catholic Church, I strongly suggest you do something about your ridiculous Pope before you even think about commenting on the subject here.

Blogger Sherwood family October 25, 2017 8:15 AM  

I think you must be mistaken. I am not Catholic. Never have been.

Blogger Johnny October 25, 2017 8:15 AM  

I have long thought that the debate over the Trinity is on the same level as the debate over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I mean really, is getting that question right on a quiz going to get you in or keep you out of heaven? Seems unlikely.

As for Flake, listening to him talk I thought that he must live in an alternative universe. Upon reflection it would seem that when the crap starts to fall he only notices if some if it hits he himself personally. Doesn't vote his constituents interests and then is pissed that they don't support him. Between him and McPain, what's with the folks from Arizona?

Blogger VD October 25, 2017 8:17 AM  

You're banned and spammed, anonymos-coward. Don't try to comment here again.

Blogger VD October 25, 2017 8:17 AM  

I think you must be mistaken. I am not Catholic. Never have been.

Whatever you are, knock it off.

OpenID anonymos-coward October 25, 2017 8:18 AM  

You're banned and spammed, anonymos-coward. Don't try to comment here again.

Or what? Please kindly go fuck yourself.

Blogger Sherwood family October 25, 2017 8:18 AM  

Sorry. Not sure what I did wrong. Just replying to Nate.

Anonymous Bob Ramar October 25, 2017 8:19 AM  

Speaking of Senator Cuck, here is an interesting piece from Zero Hedge.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-24/paul-craig-roberts-american-left-rip

Blogger VD October 25, 2017 8:20 AM  

Sorry. Not sure what I did wrong. Just replying to Nate.

You might not have done anything wrong, but you were making the spam situation worse. Don't worry about it, just drop the topic.

Blogger Andrew Brown October 25, 2017 8:20 AM  

The Mormon god should technically be matter as it's described as eternal whereas god the(ir) father was once a man. Also this man who is now supposedly our God required a fallen angel to start the process of humans becoming gods.
You don't even have to dig deep for their cult to fall apart.

Blogger Sherwood family October 25, 2017 8:20 AM  

Dropped.

Blogger Markku October 25, 2017 8:21 AM  

I see, you're probably Mormon then. I read your argument the wrong way around, especially since it was the exact same argument the Catholic troll was making, but probably from the other perspective.

This is not to say that I consider it any way possible that Mormons are Christian, just that I don't have specific instructions regarding Mormons.

Blogger Sherwood family October 25, 2017 8:22 AM  

Well...Vox asked me to drop the topic so I won't respond on this thread. We'll disagree obviously.

Blogger Dire Badger October 25, 2017 8:23 AM  

What, exactly, is the difference between a nicene creed Christian and a constantine creed Christian?

Blogger Dire Badger October 25, 2017 8:26 AM  

Andrew Brown wrote:The Mormon god should technically be matter as it's described as eternal whereas god the(ir) father was once a man. Also this man who is now supposedly our God required a fallen angel to start the process of humans becoming gods.

You don't even have to dig deep for their cult to fall apart.


Wrong. Mormons believe that JESUS was once a Man. God is eternal. And I have NO idea where you got that 'fallen angel to start the process' crap from. That sounds more like that weird semi-christian sect out in Indiana's beliefs... you know, the ones that don't believe in Heaven?

Anonymous Strategy October 25, 2017 8:28 AM  

I like the strategy of ousting moderate and fake republicans. The republicans need to sit down and write up a list of core values. And if any of them dont agree with or feel strongly about these core values ... get republican voters to help them construct this list. What do the republican voters want to see happen. If the Flakes and the Mccains and that woman from Maine that calls herself a republican and others dont share that vision and are not on the same page then they have to go. They have no business in the party..

Anonymous Looking Glass October 25, 2017 8:29 AM  

@36 Johnny

It's a common sentiment that the Trinity doesn't matter much, in the grand scheme, but that's incorrect. It's one of the uniquely Christian traits, along with being keenly important for the assumptions that go along with being a Christian.

Fallen human nature is to create gods that reflect our own image, where the Trinity renders that impossible. Just as a concept, it brings out the rebelliousness of the soul very easily, but the truth of it will change you. As there is only one path to Salvation.

Blogger FALPhil October 25, 2017 8:30 AM  

dtungsten wrote:Icicle October 25, 2017 5:48 AM

Indeed, I've had people tell me that Jehovah's witnesses were not Christians because they *didn't* believe in Trinity.


That's not too far off the mark. Besides that, one may conclude that Watchtower nuttiness rivals Mormon nuttiness, what with all the anti-orthodox interpretations of scripture.

Blogger Dire Badger October 25, 2017 8:33 AM  

Most 'normal' republicans DO have a list of things that they think that the republican party is and isn't...

It wasn't until the Dubya and Obama years that most of us realized that what we THOUGHT the republicans were and what they REALLY were was as different as dogs and Lampreys.

Anonymous Causal Lurker October 25, 2017 8:36 AM  

Leave the squirrel alone, folks. Concentrate on the real enemy:

"The Judean People's Front!

NO! The Romans!

Ohhhh..."


Focus on the Temple on Nice and how to uproot it and then sow with salt. Send discussion to another thread, fine. Start harpying about hate speech and I'll give you chapter, verses, from Scripture, and interpret. Girls, this is why you can't have good faith. :)

Blogger Dire Badger October 25, 2017 8:37 AM  

I still haven't found any examples of 'Judeo Christ'

Blogger WynnLloyd October 25, 2017 8:38 AM  

It's almost dreamlike, that we have a president that's as awesome as he is. Takes some getting used to, since cowards and cucks like Flake have been empowered for so long.

Blogger VD October 25, 2017 8:46 AM  

What, exactly, is the difference between a nicene creed Christian and a constantine creed Christian?

You can read the comparison between the original Nicene Creed and the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed on Infogalactic.

Blogger wreckage October 25, 2017 8:47 AM  

The thing is that with every year that the should-have-been cultural and political warfighters of the Right refused to wage the culture war, civil war came closer to inevitability.

And then we have the attempt at massive demographic displacement via immigration which, I am terribly sorry leftists and sensible centrists, really *IS* genocide by at least one existing definition. One that moderates were - again, I might add - intent on sitting out.

What makes a man turn neutral?

Anonymous deplorable October 25, 2017 8:47 AM  

Speaking of Churchians helping rebuild the Tower of Babel 2.0 check this out...

https://www.salemoffers.com/campaign/welcome/

Noticed its women/feminism yet again.

Blogger Sillon Bono October 25, 2017 8:48 AM  

VD wrote:If you want to defend the Roman Catholic Church, I strongly suggest you do something about your ridiculous Pope before you even think about commenting on the subject here.

So true it hurts.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd October 25, 2017 8:50 AM  

wreckage wrote:What makes a man turn neutral?

Cowardice, or treachery.

Blogger Dire Badger October 25, 2017 8:52 AM  

marco moltisanti wrote:@20:

A lot of you are more knowledgeable on theocracy than me. Can you explain to me why most mainstream Christians consider the Nicean creed a prerequisite for being considered a genuine Christian? I get that seeing the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as separate beings is a pretty essential difference from mainstream Christians, but it seems like a view that could be supported from the Bible depending on your interpretation. I've never been able to understand why the view that was decided on in a counsel called hundred of years after the death of the apostles by a pagan emperor with worldly, political motives is considered a central pillar of Christian belief.


I wouldn't expect an answer. I have been asking that same question for almost 20 years, and NO ONE seems to be able to justify it biblically...They all just quote athasian like it is somehow every bit as valid as The words of the apostles.

I would LOVE a good, thought-out and rational rational explanation, from a philosophical, psychological, or even decently grounded theological point of view.... but the only answers anyone seems able to provide involve arrogant, self-satisfied "WE are saved and you are going to hell" prattling. Which is ironic because, last time I checked, Jesus himself stated pretty clearly that the only person who gets to judge who is going to hell is God himself.

Frankly, I don't much care if devout Muslims are going to heaven or hell. I simply want to help expedite the decision-making process.

Anonymous deplorable October 25, 2017 8:56 AM  

Anyway it was an email from the Salem network, here is some of the text...


"The world is coming to our doorstep. How will we, as Christians, respond?

Learn how to create a culture of welcome in a divided land. Get your FREE Bible study on immigration, refugees, and our call to love the stranger.





GET THE FREE BIBLE STUDY




Across the globe, families are fleeing violence, trying to escape persecution and working to provide their families with the food they need to live and opportunity to give them hope.
One of the ways we can live out Christlike hospitality is to be welcoming to immigrants, refugees and the victims of human trafficking in our country and communities while speaking out for systems that treat everyone fairly.

To learn more about how the Bible teaches us to love the stranger in our midst, get your FREE Bible study today!"

And as usual its addressed to the women/feminists. See Dalrock as to why that is or Genesis 3:1-2.


Blogger Dire Badger October 25, 2017 9:00 AM  

"Our call to love the stranger" is often referred to as 'xenophilia', and is, in fact, still in the psychiatrist's list of mental diseases.

Anonymous deplorable October 25, 2017 9:01 AM  

"About the Authors

Welcome. is a community of Christian women committed to living out Christlike hospitality for all God's children, but specifically for "the stranger."

We believe that one of the ways we can live out Christlike hospitality is to be welcoming to immigrants, refugees and the victims of human trafficking in our country and communities while speaking out for systems that treat everyone fairly.

Get your FREE Bible study today!"


For an explanation of the Churchian BS see Genesis chapter 3

Anonymous deplorable October 25, 2017 9:04 AM  

"Our call to love the stranger" is often referred to as 'xenophilia', and is, in fact, still in the psychiatrist's list of mental diseases.

I looked it up, Good catch.

Anonymous deplorable October 25, 2017 9:08 AM  

"While speaking out for systems that treat everyone fairly..."

What convoluted logic. So when these Churchians find a 'system' that treats every fairly THEN they will speak out!? What's the point then? Churchian BS.

Anonymous deplorable October 25, 2017 9:18 AM  

That syrupy shit is straight from hell. And there is all these people downloading the "free" bible deception study, men too even though the email and message are directed to women with the website having a big picture of Churchian women sitting around in a field drinking something (probably coffee). Crazy stuff.

Blogger WynnLloyd October 25, 2017 9:19 AM  

Nice Zapp Brannigan reference. Love that episode.

Blogger WynnLloyd October 25, 2017 9:22 AM  

It does hurt. Very much. However it's the truth.
No one converts because of trolling in comment sections anyway. I hope that when we defeat the SJWs that we don't go back to attacking each other over doctrinal differences. Maybe this era will teach us to appreciate each other's sects.

Blogger WynnLloyd October 25, 2017 9:23 AM  

Didn't know that. That's amazing. I assume that's the DSM you're referencing?

Blogger EasyCompany October 25, 2017 9:25 AM  

"That is false. Take your Roman Catholic propaganda elsewhere and don't come back."

"Yes. Take the Catholic performance art somewhere else. I do not tolerate recreations of the 30 Years War here. If you want to defend the Roman Catholic Church, I strongly suggest you do something about your ridiculous Pope before you even think about commenting on the subject here."

Your kind always show their true colors.

Oh, you don't have to ban me, I'm gone.

Anonymous deplorable October 25, 2017 9:31 AM  

"We believe that one of the ways we can live out Christlike hospitality is to be welcoming to immigrants, refugees and the victims of human trafficking in our country and communities while speaking out for systems that treat everyone fairly."

Hot tip Churchians they're are no "systems" in the world that treat people fairly, oh that's right you must mean the globalist system that's causing all those wars and displacements all over the world and that are bringing you all those "wonderful" strangers into your communities that's the "fair" system that you are now speaking up for when instead you should have been speaking up against all the unfair systems that have been exploiting people from day one including globullism. Hell even some pagans do that. SMFH.

Anonymous Looking Glass October 25, 2017 9:41 AM  

@60 Dire Badger

Gnostics screw up everything. Nicene "agreement" is something of a baseline for not getting too far off into nuttiness. It's part shared identity and part defending the faith.


@19 VD

https://infogalactic.com/info/Nicean_Creed

The weird part is I'm pretty sure most of the time I've heard the Creed, it starts in the latter version but mostly uses the first. Granted, the Creed doesn't come up much.

Though I do see where the issues would you notice are, mostly. Though it's easy to forget how easily everyone call fall to appeals to universalism.

Blogger Ned October 25, 2017 9:44 AM  

Re Flake: We saw his Mormon minions at an Arizona gun show six or so weeks ago, attempting to collect signatures to get Flake's name on the ballot. Everyone I saw, including the guy I was with and me told them to piss off. I watched for a while, as this was more entertaining than anything I'd seen for a while. The Mormon boys trying to collect signatures look like they'd all just watched their team get beaten to a pulp. Totally demoralized. With idiots like McCuck and Flake getting re-elected in AZ, it was great to see this.
I think Flake is wimping out because he couldn't collect enough ballot signatures in AZ. So he virtue snivels his way into retirement.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd October 25, 2017 10:00 AM  

VD wrote:I prefer the term Nicene Creed Christian.

This Nicene Creed? I like that one. Jesus is the only begotten son of God.

Could you give us a link to the Constantinian Creed?

Blogger Akulkis October 25, 2017 10:16 AM  

I'm waiting for big fun time too.

Blogger Akulkis October 25, 2017 10:22 AM  

The U.S. military prides itself on being apolitical. What Obama did was to deliberately throw that out the window.

Certain political generals need to be booted post-haste, starting with General You-can't -make-me-get-rid-of-transexuals and whatever Colonels and Sergeants Major are encouraging his obstinacy.

Blogger S1AL October 25, 2017 10:28 AM  

I've always liked the term "Christian Cult" to describe the various non-orthodox branches (for those of you who are about to sperg, this means JW's and Mormons). There's no doubt in my mind that they hold an imperfect truth, but according to any given denomination so does everyone else. There comes a point where one must throw one's hands in the air and say "Christ will judge".

This does not, of course, mean that one shouldn't attempt to evangelize as appropriate. But Mormons and JW's are certainly demi-Christians, given that they hold the most core truths of Christianity (Christ's death and resurrection for the sake of atonement, etc).

The Nicene Creed nicely resolves most issues of the trinitarian doctrine - frankly, I'm not sure how one can find any meaningful disagreement if it is accepted. I blame the insistence on exact quantification of doctrine that sprung from... certain traditions.

Blogger Akulkis October 25, 2017 10:30 AM  

Basementhomebrewer

You don't magnify a million dollar construction company into a billion dollar construction company without learning how to get both hidden enemies and their foot-dragging allies to expose themselves publicly.

To realize fantastic real estate/construction profits one must acquire the skill of head-faking as a way of life, or else you'd never get run-down, abandoned, and collapsed buildings at anything less than what the derelict owners think they can gouge out of you profit projections. Make noise about a plan to build a huge project on the east side, while getting the land on the west side that you ACTUALLY want to redevelop.

Blogger S1AL October 25, 2017 10:40 AM  

"I wouldn't expect an answer. I have been asking that same question for almost 20 years, and NO ONE seems to be able to justify it biblically...They all just quote athasian like it is somehow every bit as valid as The words of the apostles."

The Nicean Creed is universally accepted as a summation of the tenets it addresses - that means by Orthodox, RCC, all Protestants, Anglicans, etc. "Summation" is the key word.

But given the fact that it was created by a true Ecumenical council and is accepted by all of Christianity, you might as well just toss out the Bible if you reject it.

Blogger Arthur Isaac October 25, 2017 10:43 AM  

On the military front: La David was an Imperial Trooper, I'm not sure what nation he was fighting for but it wasn't mine.

Blogger Markku October 25, 2017 10:47 AM  

Ominous Cowherd wrote:VD wrote:I prefer the term Nicene Creed Christian.

This Nicene Creed? I like that one. Jesus is the only begotten son of God.

Could you give us a link to the Constantinian Creed?


Vox has always acknowledged the full divinity of Christ, and on that front the creeds are essentially the same. The difference is that Constantian Creed fleshes out details about the Holy Spirit, whereas Nicene leaves it all open. If I understand correctly, Vox is not convinced of the Holy Spirit being a person (as in, a center of consciousness, in the same way the Father and the Son are). And that is his beef with Holy Trinity. Not Jesus.

Scroll about one third down and see a comparison of the two

Anonymous Just another commenter October 25, 2017 11:01 AM  

One thing I'm not looking forward to if I ever start regularly attending church is finding one that doesn't make my hackles stand up when the preacher says things that are pure SJW. The nearest Catholic church doesn't have Latin mass - when I asked about anyone there knowing Latin at all (a translation question), the person on the phone didn't know of anyone in the whole diocese that might know it, and could only recommend that a madrigal singing group that occasionally visited might, because they had some obviously not-English songs....

Blogger tz October 25, 2017 11:08 AM  

I find theological discussions interesting but generally unproductive. At best we are trying to discern and decide on what is unknowable based on the shadows of eye witness accounts from centuries ago (and the occasional shroud of Turin). At worst, its purpose is to divide and purge.

At LEAST 90% of the people here are likely wrong on some major point about the nature of God - and the 30 years war is not the way to resolve it.

Christian can mean simply someone who believes in Jesus Christ and God. By their fruit ye shall know them. I'd rather be around uncucked Mormons fighting to restore America than most fellow Catholics that agree with my theology 100% but are actively trying to turn the USA into a 3rd world multicultural hell-hole forgetting about the nature of man - fallen, concupicence, sinful. The hardest part is to be a peacemaker without being a moderate.

Catholics recite the constanople-nicean Creed with filioque every mass, but many don't consider them Christian because they hold sola scriptura (though the Bible itself is ambiguous).

We waste the little time we have here arguing about words and invisible and remote things while we should be extinguishing fires and planting trees. Doing things. The book describing what the Apostles did is called Acts, not theoretical theology.

Will God condemn you for wrong-think it would be hard to know or resolve or wrong acts which are very clearly condemned? Are they discussing the Gospel or living it?

As to the Facebook church lady, I wonder how much more angst if she instead tried to hold single mothers or divorcees to account.

Blogger tz October 25, 2017 11:09 AM  

@82 Ecclesia Dei has a directory.

Blogger James Dixon October 25, 2017 11:14 AM  

> As for Mormons, well, I can't help but think that the Lord can tolerate a significant amount of doctrinal error before he withholds his grace.

It is indeed fortunate that none of us will be the ones making those calls, isn't it?

> I get that seeing the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as separate beings is a pretty essential difference from mainstream Christians, but it seems like a view that could be supported from the Bible depending on your interpretation.

Unfortunately, a full discussion of the matter would get "interesting", and it's not a subject I know all that much about.

> I would remind everyone who's getting all bowed up over the Trinity... christians have been fighting over this for 2000 years. Most of the men we call saints today were curses as heretics in their day... primarily over this issue

> Just think of how many people would be enlightened and humbly accept the position of others.

> And the entire issue boils down to applying a human-centric point of view to the Divine, a nature beyond our ability to wholly grasp.

I didn't want to write "Exactly" three times. :)

> I would LOVE a good, thought-out and rational rational explanation, from a philosophical, psychological, or even decently grounded theological point of view

I admit that I have no idea what the biblical basis for the Holy Ghost being on par with the Father and Son is, but a good summation of the nature of Christ and the Father is John 1:1-14.

Blogger S1AL October 25, 2017 11:20 AM  

"I admit that I have no idea what the biblical basis for the Holy Ghost being on par with the Father and Son is, but a good summation of the nature of Christ and the Father is John 1:1-14."

The most common citations would be:

"I am sending you one who is just like me"

"Baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"

There's more, but those are the verses that directly equate the Spirit with the Father and Son.

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable October 25, 2017 11:21 AM  

Technically it's already hot in the sense that bullets have flown (e.g. Rep. Steve Scalise shot), but people died in the Cold War (lest we forget), so as long as it doesn't go above bushfire status we can still call it a Cold Civil War II without breaking the analogies.

Looking Glass wrote:I think the whole Antifa support from DC activated a lot more defensive instincts in the "guys with guns" than the UniParty understands. This trend went right along with increase in support for Trump. Those aren't unrelated.

Actually, even dotty old Nancy Pelosi was aware enough to walk it back and condemn the Antifa. Apparently, although Democrats are all rank socialists now, straight-up commie revolutionary street thugs are a bridge too far even for them.

Blogger James Dixon October 25, 2017 11:23 AM  

> At LEAST 90% of the people here are likely wrong on some major point about the nature of God - and the 30 years war is not the way to resolve it.

If it's only 90% I'll be extremely surprised.

Blogger Student in Blue October 25, 2017 11:23 AM  

@26. marco moltisanti
A lot of you are more knowledgeable on theocracy than me. Can you explain to me why most mainstream Christians consider the Nicean creed a prerequisite for being considered a genuine Christian? I get that seeing the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as separate beings is a pretty essential difference from mainstream Christians, but it seems like a view that could be supported from the Bible depending on your interpretation. I've never been able to understand why the view that was decided on in a counsel called hundred of years after the death of the apostles by a pagan emperor with worldly, political motives is considered a central pillar of Christian belief.

I can't speak for most mainstream Christians (because let's face it, most mainstream Christians aren't very good Christians), but I can tell you what I've been taught as a Lutheran. Also assuming you meant theology instead of theocracy.

The Father is separate from the Son, due to Jesus' baptism when the heavens opened and the voice of God came down and literally proclaimed Him, His Son. Jesus refers to His Father multiple times, never claiming to be Him, but to be of Him. Son of David, yet David's Lord.

Another key point brought up in the Nicene Creed is how Jesus was True Man, Yet True God. If He was not a man, he could never have accepted our sins, as God is absolutely just, and died, as God is eternal, never changing. If he was not God... well, a single human's sacrifice would never have sufficed for the entirety of sin of humanity, past present and future. And He never could have brought himself back to life, conquering death, and given us new life, if He were not God.

Nicene Creed also mentions how Jesus will return one day. Also pretty dang important.

Anyway, the nature of Jesus was the subject of much debate and many heresies in the early Christian Church. And a number of those heresies still pop up today, but people just slap on new names or pass them off as something else, because they don't know their Church history. Just looking at some of those heresies (Arianism, Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism...) and the arguments for and against will give you a good sense of why they were so important.

Anonymous BBGKB October 25, 2017 11:26 AM  

Out of all the possible nuttiness with Mormons...it's THAT thing that set them off?

Isn't their magic t-shirts supposed to protect them?

Part of this is military culture waking up from it's Obama induced malaise... Obama's pet freakshow being sent to bootcamp

15 states + DC are still fighting for trannies in the military as of last week.

Get your FREE Bible study on immigration, refugees, and our call to love the stranger

Produced by Harvey Weinstein

OT: I posted about this before but didn't see any comments about the 4th circuit ordering a WWI memorial cross torn down. perhaps I had too many ooos https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/court-declares-veterans-memorial-unconstitutional-andorders-its-removal

Blogger Student in Blue October 25, 2017 11:28 AM  

@Ominous Cowherd
Could you give us a link to the Constantinian Creed?

Vox said Infogalactic for a reason. Look at the 381AD First Council of Constantinople for the version he refers to.

Blogger Markku October 25, 2017 11:32 AM  

S1AL wrote:"I am sending you one who is just like me"

Pretty sure this is not from the Bible. I looked at all the Comforter verses, and though you could say that the equivalence is implicit, this is not actually stated. I think you are confusing two verses, and getting the "just like me" from:

Act 7:37 This is the Moses who said to the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers.’

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable October 25, 2017 11:37 AM  

Well for what it's worth I believe in the Trinity as one Being with three Persons, which any spec-fic fan should be able to understand as the natural consequence of the insertion of a higher-dimensional being into our limited space.

And BBGKB, I'm nursing my anger at our Jewy courts' twisted repurposing of the 1A, so I have no words.

Blogger Markku October 25, 2017 11:40 AM  

Also, what with Constantine being everybody's favorite whipping boy these days, it might be tempting to think that the doctrine about the Holy Spirit was actually INVENTED (nefariously) at the time it was added to the creed. Not so. Ignatius of Antioch, c. 35–c. 107:

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians, Chapter II

Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to "baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," [1316] not unto one [person] having three names, nor into three [persons] who became incarnate, but into three possessed of equal honour.

Blogger Student in Blue October 25, 2017 11:43 AM  

@SciVo de Plorable
Well for what it's worth I believe in the Trinity as one Being with three Persons, which any spec-fic fan should be able to understand as the natural consequence of the insertion of a higher-dimensional being into our limited space.

Definitely one of my long-running working theories. Also the whole "omnipresence" and "outside of time" thing lends itself very well to an incomprehensible higher-dimensional being.

Blogger James Dixon October 25, 2017 11:51 AM  

> Well for what it's worth I believe in the Trinity as one Being with three Persons

That's the standard understanding as far as I know it, yes.

Now, how that can be I don't presume to understand. In fact, I doubt I'm even capable of understanding.

Anonymous VFM #7916 October 25, 2017 11:52 AM  

@81

Thank you, Markku

Anonymous mistaben October 25, 2017 11:58 AM  

There are a lot of cucked Mormons in the US, but that is changing, just as it is with all the base cuckservatives (BTW, Mormons outside the US tend to be more woke in general). The culture of elevating niceness to the greatest virtue among American Mormons continues to collapse.

In the meantime, Mormons are to the right of almost everyone in the US on most other facets of preserving Western Civilization. Don't shoot to the right.

Blogger S1AL October 25, 2017 12:01 PM  

Markku wrote:Pretty sure this is not from the Bible. I looked at all the Comforter verses, and though you could say that the equivalence is implicit, this is not actually stated. I think you are confusing two verses, and getting the "just like me" from:

You're making me do research. Bah.

John 14:15, according to some sources, is usually translated "another", but that word signifies "another just alike", or somesuch. Now I have to read commentaries and figure out how accurate that is.

Bah.

Blogger S1AL October 25, 2017 12:08 PM  

Ah, here we go:

http://gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?search=allos&dict=vine&lang=greek

Transliterated "allos", the word means "another of the same kind". This is differentiated from "heteros", meaning "another of a different kind".

So it's a bit squishy.

Anonymous BBGKB October 25, 2017 12:08 PM  

@4 "Via Instapundit, even the think tanks of the left have noticed, they they refuse to let the information sink in: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/10/on-safari-in-trumps-america/543288/"

The funniest part was that hippies are too far to the right of shitlibs

""The hippies should have been her kind of people, but the attitudes they’d expressed had offended her sense of the way America ought to be"

Blogger Good Will October 25, 2017 12:11 PM  

I can attest, from personal experience, that livelihoods are being lost.

I was a school teacher for 21 years. A political opponent of liberalism, an avowed (if not outspoken) proponent of family, faith and Western culture (as it was, not what it is now). I was forced out -- my career ruined -- by a convergence of accusers who, simultaneously, heaped scurrilous, absurd and endless salacious accusations on my head.

A joke I made to a student (whose surname is pronounced "solar") -- saying "you must be hot!" -- was used YEARS LATER to accuse me of sexual harassment after I caught her cheating on a chemistry exam.

Another accused me of sexual harassment because I said to her: "You behaved. It was a good day." (Until that moment, she had NEVER behaved...and so I had never complimented her.) My "out-of-the-ordinary" compliment was thus couched as having no other conceivable purpose than sexual harassment.

A student -- who threw objects at my classroom window (including a soda can), laughing hysterically, menacing, insulting me and others while dropping f-bombs -- was removed and, ultimately, arrested...but was brought back the next day. However, I was then removed from class for WEEKS, placed under investigation and finally formally reprimanded, because, when I spoke with the security guard privately outside about this student's behavior in class, I said he was "acting like a freak." (Only the security guard heard me.) The lesbian security guard said she was "offended" by my "unprofessional" characterization and degradation of the student by using this term.

I told my high school seniors -- who couldn't multiply 8 x 7 or add 6 + 9 without a calculator -- that they needed to "go kick your math teacher's ass...I don't even know if they have a donkey or if kicking it would do any good...but, in any event, you should ask for a refund because clearly nobody taught you how to do math." This was characterized as promoting violence and sexual assault.

Making an analogy about valence electrons and ionization energy, I talked about the difficulty of "ripping" a baby from its mother's arms. At least one of my barely-able-to-speak-English students heard "raped" and "told" on me. I was reprimanded for triggering potential victims of rape and unnecessarily talking about sexual activity!

Blogger Good Will October 25, 2017 12:11 PM  

ANY AND EVERY possible insult, accusation or defamation that COULD be lodged against me WAS lodged against me -- repeatedly, daily, hourly. The district interviewed (or tried to interview) EVERY ONE of my students, going back over a decade -- spending HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS -- to see if they could dig up ANY "dirt" on me. "Did he ever touch you? Did he ever leer at you? Did he ever talk about sex with students?" Such "leading" questions turned my classroom into a "free-for-all" of seeing and hearing nothing but innuendo and sexual misconduct in EVERY action I took, every statement I made.

When I wore a periodic table printed on a tee-shirt and pointed to it, they said "you were touching your nipples in class and smiling."

When I said "My wife and I have seven children, so obviously we know what we're doing and we enjoy doing it," his was characterized as "talking about having sex with your wife in front of students and telling them how much you enjoy having sex."

The Liberal establishment is INSANE. I don't know how I lasted as long as I did! I have been lied about, mischaracterized and defamed at EVERY turn.

Have I been perfect? No. Twenty years ago I took a misbehaving student out into the hall and asked him, point blank, why he was "being such an asshole" in my class. He shaped up...but not before "telling" on me. I got fired.

When, TWO DECADES LATER, I said a kid was "acting like a freak" in my class, that first statement was referenced to allege a "pattern" of inappropriate and unprofessional misconduct! Saying "asshole" and "freak" TWENTY YEARS APART constituted a "PATTERN" of verbal abuse! (Of course, it didn't matter that the kids in question WERE acting like assholes and freaks!)

So I lost my job. My career is destroyed. I will lose my credential perhaps later next year. In education, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU DO. It only matters WHAT YOU'RE ACCUSED OF. And so THEY ACCUSE YOU OF EVERYTHING, INCESSANTLY, ALWAYS PROJECTING. Liberal, drug-using, porn-surfing teachers who openly call their students "fucking little shits" behind closed doors will accuse you of calling your students "stupid" and being "rude."

The hypocrisy is overwhelming.

Blogger Markku October 25, 2017 12:13 PM  

Here's more from Ignatius (remember, along with Justin Martyr he was one of the very first ever recorded Church fathers)

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians
Chapter VI.--Abstain from the poison of heretics.
They introduce God as a Being unknown; they suppose Christ to be unbegotten; and as to the Spirit, they do not admit that He exists. Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person, and that the creation is the work of God, not by Christ, but by some other strange power.

Anonymous Looking Glass October 25, 2017 12:15 PM  

The real hang up from the AD 381 version would be this line:

"And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets."

I honestly can't recall the bolded part ever coming up in discussion, at any point. It seems a sudden upgrade to the Holy Ghost. It should be noted that the implicit references to the Old Testament with the Trinity are there as well, though mostly in the descending nature. There's the Lord as Mt. Sinai, the Angel of the Lord and the Spirit. (The Spirit would "descend" or "come upon" depending on the era & translation. Sampson is a good example, though there are a number.)



@95 Student in Blue

The Prophet Isaiah is pretty clear that the Lord is beyond us, but, yes, we are the dimensionally trapped attempting to understand something well beyond our frame of reference. The Apostle Paul even addressed this. That's what "through a glass, darkly" and various translation therein are speaking to, at least partially.

Blogger S1AL October 25, 2017 12:16 PM  

Markku wrote:They introduce God as a Being unknown; they suppose Christ to be unbegotten; and as to the Spirit, they do not admit that He exists. Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person, and that the creation is the work of God, not by Christ, but by some other strange power.

Man - that hits Unitarians, JW's, Mormons, and a few others.

Blogger James Dixon October 25, 2017 12:19 PM  

> So it's a bit squishy.

I think that pretty well sums up everything concerning the Holy Ghost. It's really hard to pin down the exact references and meanings. There's enough there to justify the official church position, but the details are definitely fuzzy.

Blogger Student in Blue October 25, 2017 12:23 PM  

@Looking Glass

Also consider 2 Peter 3:8.

Blogger S1AL October 25, 2017 12:26 PM  

James Dixon wrote:I think that pretty well sums up everything concerning the Holy Ghost. It's really hard to pin down the exact references and meanings. There's enough there to justify the official church position, but the details are definitely fuzzy.

Yup, and that's reflected in the creeds.

That said, Matthew 28:19 is very definitive in Christ's own affirmation of the foundation of the Trinity. John 14:26 likewise absolutely affirms the personhood of the Spirit, as well as His likeness with Christ as Teacher.

Blogger Good Will October 25, 2017 12:30 PM  

John M wrote:The only way I would consider a Mormon to be a Christian would be if he denounces Joseph Smith as a heretic and the Book of Mormon as pure crap. Otherwise if Mormons are Christians then so too are Muslims.

As a Mormon for 37 years, I would have said "Mormons surely are Christians!"

But then I was excommunicated by the Mormon Church for claiming that "Jesus Christ is our PERSONAL Savior." They said "That's false doctrine!"

Apparently they now believe that Jesus has given His power "to save" unto men (see 2 Nephi 28:5); that by THEIR ORDINANCES and KEYS and LEADERSHIP (like the Catholic Church), they (alone) are empowered by God to "save" or "condemn."

They told me that if I didn't "submit" to their alleged "authority," I would lose my membership, my temple privileges, even my wife and children.

I was WILLING to call their leaders "prophets, seers and revelators." But I would NOT denounce Christ as my PERSONAL Savior. (I had simply had too many real and personal encounters with Him to allege that.)

The guy who handed me my letter kicking me out of the Mormon Church (and later "banishing" me, so I couldn't even attend Mormon services as a non-member with my family), then sexually seduced my wife. (She is now divorcing me. That guy's son is now dating one of my daughters Nice kid!)

I lost my Mormon membership, my marriage, my seven children...Mormons on the school board even thought NOTHING of firing me...so I lost my career, too. (Now my family HATES me...as do my former Mormon friends. I'm an "outcast.")

For all the GOOD WORKS Mormons do -- all their vaunted humanitarian efforts, their excellent emphasis on family, their wonderful videos and media productions, their teachings about Christ, their programs, etc. -- the Mormon Church has gone off the rails into the same heresies that have infected ALMOST EVERY sect of Christendom. They now PERSECUTE the saints of God.

That being said, Joseph Smith WAS a true prophet of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon IS true.

The Mormon Church ISN'T true. Polygamy and all that Brigham Young, et al., foisted on the world isn't true. (And, yes, even Joseph Smith made some mistakes.)

But the Book of Mormon is true. And following its precepts will bring you closer to Jesus Christ than any other book.

Blogger Markku October 25, 2017 12:30 PM  

Also, Justin Martyr, 100-165:
Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew
Chapter XXXVI.--He proves that Christ is called Lord of Hosts.

And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory.'

Blogger pyrrhus October 25, 2017 12:40 PM  

@73 "Re Flake: We saw his Mormon minions at an Arizona gun show six or so weeks ago, attempting to collect signatures to get Flake's name on the ballot."

Yes, the Mormons are cucked beyond belief in this State..That's the only reason McCain and Flake have survived this long.

Blogger Student in Blue October 25, 2017 12:41 PM  

@Looking Glass
I honestly can't recall the bolded part ever coming up in discussion, at any point. It seems a sudden upgrade to the Holy Ghost. It should be noted that the implicit references to the Old Testament with the Trinity are there as well, though mostly in the descending nature. There's the Lord as Mt. Sinai, the Angel of the Lord and the Spirit. (The Spirit would "descend" or "come upon" depending on the era & translation. Sampson is a good example, though there are a number.)

I had always half wondered if the dry bones episode was another showing of the Holy Spirit. That God put "breath" into the reconstructed flesh, and only then they had life. Supposedly the Hebrew for breath used there could also mean "wind" or "spirit".

But really I think the main reason why they called the Holy Spirit the Giver of Life was because without the Holy Spirit, you cannot on your own power believe in Christ. See the disciples all throughout Jesus' time and then during and after Pentecost.

Also see Baptism, described as drowning the old self in Jesus' death and coming to new life with His resurrection.

Blogger pyrrhus October 25, 2017 12:44 PM  

Mormons have set some kind of world record for convergence, having been around less than 200 years. It took the Protestants much longer...

Blogger Student in Blue October 25, 2017 12:45 PM  

@Good Will
The Mormon Church ISN'T true. Polygamy and all that Brigham Young, et al., foisted on the world isn't true. (And, yes, even Joseph Smith made some mistakes.)

Polygamy was around long before Joseph Smith and Brigham Young however. I believe it also wasn't explicitly labeled as sinful anywhere.

Now, whether it's a good idea is another matter. Sort of like smoking.

That said, polygamy via fornicating with an already married woman is already a done deal as far as sin goes. It's pretty dang clear that's a huge no-no.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd October 25, 2017 12:46 PM  

Markku wrote:
Scroll about one third down and see a comparison of the two


Thanks, Markku. I don't find much to disagree with in the Constantine Creed, either.

The reference to ``... one holy catholic ... church ...'' raises hackles, but that's because long after 381AD the Roman Church tried to appropriate the word catholic.

Markku wrote:If I understand correctly, Vox is not convinced of the Holy Spirit being a person (as in, a center of consciousness, in the same way the Father and the Son are). And that is his beef with Holy Trinity. Not Jesus.

Interesting. I'm not sure if I disagree with that.

I have always understood the Trinity to be a reference to the three ways we can experience the one God. Think of the story of the blind men and the elephant. As others have said in this thread, God is more than we can understand. I don't think that our understanding of the Trinity is central to our salvation. I do think that understanding that Jesus is God and vice versa is central.

Blogger Markku October 25, 2017 12:48 PM  

Yes, looks like the "Giver of Life" part comes from Eze 37, which seems to be a bit of a pun in the original. When it talks about "breath", and then switches to "And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live", all the time it was using a single word: ruwach.

Blogger pyrrhus October 25, 2017 12:49 PM  

@102 Yes, there are quite a few conservative male teachers, but they were very discreet about it in our school district. I was standing at the back of the auditorium for a graduation with a veteran teacher whom I knew slightly when the female Principal got up to speak...He whispered "here comes 'it takes a village'"--and sure enough, two minutes later, it did...

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 25, 2017 12:50 PM  

Trump broke Flake.

Makes you wonder if Harvey Schweinstein spilled some potted plant residue on him, or if something curious turned up on Wiener's computer. Interesting that the Alzheimer's state will have two Incitatuses to replace soon. In light of how many Mexicans already vote there, wouldn't be surprised to see two Mexican D-jerseys "elected" by Soros & Co.

Blogger Elder Son October 25, 2017 12:51 PM  

@76 Akulkis - The U.S. military prides itself on being apolitical.

The latest poll of the enlisted ranks says White Supremacy is more dangerous to America than Ter-er-er-ism.

Blogger Good Will October 25, 2017 12:54 PM  

The Book of Mormon attests that Jesus is the Father and the Son: the Father because of His Spirit and the Son because of His flesh.

The Book of Mormon rightly and invariably proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Eternal God. It proclaims that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are "one God."

Mormons understand this better than most -- but they MINIMIZE the divinity of Jesus, NOT UNDERSTANDING WHO HE REALLY IS!

Christ, though not possessing a fulness of God in the flesh at first, but growing from grace to grace, nonetheless was the Word, God Himself. He condescended to come to earth from His eternal throne On High, having created this world and innumerable worlds like unto it, being the Father of heaven and earth, to live among us, the Father becoming as the Son, to show us the Way.

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17.) Here Christ was announcing that He was, once again, assuming the role in heaven of the Father.

Christ, in His role as "Father," created all things which were created, organizing ALL THIS for our benefit and His glory. He said "To him who overcomes will I grant to sit with me on My throne, even as I have overcome and am sat on my Father's throne."

This is the great mystery of godliness.

Anonymous deplorable me October 25, 2017 12:57 PM  

@55
What, exactly, is the difference between a nicene creed Christian and a constantine creed Christian?

You can read the comparison between the original Nicene Creed and the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed on Infogalactic.


Thanks very much -- very interesting to see the comparison.

Vox and fellow readers, any recommendations/suggestions for Christian theological texts?

Raised an RC, I'd always deferred to the experts, but over the past few years I've come to realize that I need to take control of my faith formation by educating myself in the variations and nuances. I'm currently taking RCIA/Adult Instruction classes at a LCMS church, and have enjoyed learning about the similarities and differences. Not sure if I'll end up taking the plunge and becoming a (not-crazy)Lutheran, but at least I'll come away with a better understanding of RC doctrine.

Blogger marco moltisanti October 25, 2017 12:58 PM  

"In the meantime, Mormons are to the right of almost everyone in the US on most other facets of preserving Western Civilization. Don't shoot to the right."

I hope you're right about that. Still, most of the formerly cute girls I knew at BYU 20 years ago who I have on social media now just seem like garden variety SJWs who occasionally quote the Book of Mormon.

Blogger pnq8787 October 25, 2017 1:02 PM  

The trinity can be explained this way: The Universe is a computer simulation created by a team of three University students from a higher dimension. There is only one master player account named "God" but those three guys used to log in to change parameters, create objects, and interact with the characters, but all under the same account. That's why the three persons are co-equal and that's why you don't want to piss any of the three persons off because any one of them could cause you big problems. There's a lot of other higher dimensional beings out there too, but they never logged into the Universe. Those three guys set up religion by interacting with us through the prophets. But, you may have noticed there hasn't been much of that going on lately. That's because those three guys graduated and no longer have the time to play the Universe anymore. One day the power will fail or the University will shut down the Universe simulation program the and the Universe will disappear altogether. As long as you are only in RAM and your identity hasn't been "saved", you will disappear when you die. That's where Jesus (Spanish pronunciation) comes in. He's one of the three original creators of the Universe. If you ask, Jesus can "save" you. Once you are "saved" Jesus will put you on his personal server back at the house where you can live forever. Jesus's house server has much less processing power. That's why it is so hard to get "saved", only a few can really be saved anyway, max capacity and all that. Also, heaven is a very stripped down version of the Universe for obvious reasons, but things are good there in a simplified way. Any questions? ;)

Blogger James Dixon October 25, 2017 1:04 PM  

> Matthew 28:19 ... John 14:26

Matthew 12:31-32 and Mark 3:28-29 seem apropos also. Again, the exact nature of the Holy Ghost is left open though.

Blogger Elder Son October 25, 2017 1:06 PM  

Christ is of His Father in the same way we are of our fathers. Physically.

Christ is of His Father spiritually because He fulfilled the law, the prophets, and Gods will.

Christ shares our humanity through Mary.

They are One because they are in agreement.

Blogger marco moltisanti October 25, 2017 1:06 PM  

Yes, I meant theology. I think autocorrect dinged me there.

Thank you for your answer, that was helpful. The point someone else made about the nicean creed having been produced at a truly ecumenical council of the church was interesting too.

I'm still seeing through a glass darkly here but thank you for sheading a bit more light.

Blogger S1AL October 25, 2017 1:11 PM  

Elder Son wrote:They are One because they are in agreement.

John 1:1 and John 14:9 would like a word with you.

Blogger Good Will October 25, 2017 1:13 PM  

Mormon men are "pussy-whipped" cucks who, by and large, don't know God, wouldn't recognize Jesus' voice if they heard Him, are YUGE hypocrites who sleep around, diddle their future wives before they marry them in the temple, lie about their "worthiness," raise good families, and silently hope and pray all their porn surfing, fibbing, cheating, and drinking alcohol or pot smoking won't be discovered by anyone -- so they can claim all the "benefits" of "membership in good standing in the kingdom" and, hopefully, qualify to be "saved" when Christ returns (or they die, whichever comes first).

Mormons SAY they believe in Christ, the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healings, interpretation of tongues and so forth. But ASK a Mormon to share with you THEIR INTERACTION WITH CHRIST or ANY recent "prophecy" they've uttered (or heard spoken by "the Brethren"), ANY recent vision or revelation given, ANY incidence of divine, on-the-spot healing in Christ's name, ANY speaking in tongues or interpreting the same (without training), etc., and you will get CRICKETS.

Mormons BELIEVE these things. They just don't DO these things. And they PERSECUTE anyone who says he (or she) does. If you claim to have met Christ, in the flesh, personally -- heard His voice, seen His face, been carried to heaven by His Spirit, conversed with angels, etc. -- they will mock you, call you crazy, silence you and, ultimately, cast you out of their midst.

Oh, they believe these things -- for Lehi, Nephi, Mormon and Moroni, even for Joseph Smith and Thomas S. Monson!

Just not for YOU. (Because it's CERTAINLY not true for THEM.)

Blogger Good Will October 25, 2017 1:16 PM  

@pnq8787: Virtually EVERYTHING you wrote in your last post is wrong (even by analogy).

Blogger James Dixon October 25, 2017 1:17 PM  

> The reference to ``... one holy catholic ... church ...'' raises hackles,

As my wife's grandmother used to say "Roman Catholic, dear. We're as catholic as they are." And as apostolic, though she didn't say that. Which, at the time, the Espiscopal Church was.

Blogger Elder Son October 25, 2017 1:20 PM  

S1AL - John 1:1 and John 14:9 would like a word with you.

Your point?

Blogger Unknown October 25, 2017 1:20 PM  

Markku wrote:S1AL wrote:"I am sending you one who is just like me"

Pretty sure this is not from the Bible. I looked at all the Comforter verses, and though you could say that the equivalence is implicit, this is not actually stated.


I'm thinking of John 14:16,``And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;''

The greek for Comforter is Παράκλητον, which Strong's says is closer to advocate or lawyer than it is to equal.

I see the Holy Spirit as another manifestation of God. God and His Son and His Spirit are all one, even though we experience them differently. So,

Blogger James Dixon October 25, 2017 1:22 PM  

> Virtually EVERYTHING you wrote in your last post is wrong (even by analogy).

Virtually everything we think we know about the Trinity (and the nature of the Eucharist, etc., etc., etc.) is probably wrong.

Blogger Good Will October 25, 2017 1:28 PM  

Inasmuch as we "receive" one of the "mansions" prepared for us by Jesus in His Father's house hereafter, we will become even more like Him (in appearance, etc.) until, finally, we will be utterly and completely "one" with Him (indistinguishable from Him and His Father). It's NOT just about Jesus and His Father being in "agreement." Jesus IS the personification of His Father, in EVERY sense, His "higher self," revealed by the Holy Spirit (or "mind" of God) and fashioned after the Father in the flesh. The more of God's Spirit we have dwelling in us, the more like God we become!

Christ possessed a FULNESS of the Father, eventually.

When Jesus was baptized, the voice of the Father spoke from heaven saying, "Behold, thou art my son! This day have I begotten thee!" (That's what the Father REALLY said. The Gospels have since been changed -- and correlated -- to read: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.")

Blogger Elder Son October 25, 2017 1:30 PM  

I suppose it has never been said to any man or boy, "You're just like your father"?

Blogger S1AL October 25, 2017 1:38 PM  

@Unknown - Yeah, already covered that. The Greek word used indicates "another of the same kind" very explicitly. I've heard it inserted parenthetically so often that I forgot it's not actually written that way in most English translations.

@Elder Son - The "oneness" is explicitly more than just purpose or agreement. Per John 1:1 (the word used is "the Divine") it's a oneness of kind at minimum.

@James Dixon - I'm extremely annoyed by how the RCC co-opted the word in the vernacular. Especially the notion that it means "universal" - it doesn't. That's ecumenical.

Blogger Markku October 25, 2017 1:40 PM  

Yes, Finnish version translates "catholic Church" as "pyhäin yhteisen seurakunnan", which would (with extreme literalism) translate to something like "the congregation which is common to all saints"

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 25, 2017 1:41 PM  

BGKB:

OT: I posted about this before but didn't see any comments about the 4th circuit ordering a WWI memorial cross torn down. perhaps I had too many ooos Blackrobes declare crosses unconstitutional

BGKB often picks up details that few notice. This particular one is even worse that the usual blackrobe decrees of its kind. If upheld and enforced all the way, it would require removal of all crosses on headstones in military cemeteries in the USA, which is of course exactly the ultimate objective of the SJWs who control the system of "law" in Kwa-Bananaland. The churchians and other worshippers of Judeo-Christ are too busy condemning waycism in the name of their pet dindus imported as part of the government money-laudering rapefugee racket (which has actually increased under Trump - who evidently is in charge of very little) to be concerned about issues like this. Conservatives doing what they do best: surrendering to every SJW demand in order to conserve the gains made by the Marxian forces.

Blogger Elder Son October 25, 2017 2:01 PM  

S1AL - You have to remember we are now talking flesh and the same temptations we all have. The Word became flesh. If the Word that became flesh had not been in agreement with God?

This is my beloved Son, (in the flesh) hear him.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

The question is, was/is the Word, Elohim Yahweh?

Blogger Good Will October 25, 2017 2:12 PM  

Jesus is Yahweh, the Eternal God. He is our Father and God (if we allow ourselves to be begotten of Him), our Creator, Redeemer, Deliverer, Savior, etc. He is "One" with Elohim (or "the Gods" who inhabit the Divine Council and ordain all things according to Their Divine Will, or Holy Spirit), those who said "Let US make man in OUR image." And so The Word spoke.

That is what the Gods do. They beget beings like unto Themselves.

Blogger FALPhil October 25, 2017 2:14 PM  

Dire Badger wrote:
I would LOVE a good, thought-out and rational rational explanation, from a philosophical, psychological, or even decently grounded theological point of view...

It's out there by a theologian named R. C. Sproul.

Blogger Elder Son October 25, 2017 2:30 PM  

Jesus is not Elohim Yahweh anymore than the Divine Council is Elohim Yahweh.

Big E. Little e.


In the beginning... In the beginning of what?

Blogger Student in Blue October 25, 2017 2:40 PM  

@Good Will
Christ, though not possessing a fulness of God in the flesh at first, but growing from grace to grace, nonetheless was the Word, God Himself.

I can't seem to recall any evidence that Jesus ever did not possess "a fullness of God in the flesh" and had to essentially 'grow' into being God.

Even before He was born, there were numbers upon numbers of signs. Even during the months before He was born, and very likely before He was even concieved, there was a star guiding wise men from far away. Right when He was born angels sang out in chorus in joy.

That doesn't sound anything like a guy who hasn't quite gotten his splendour and power yet.

Blogger Elder Son October 25, 2017 2:41 PM  

Here is a good primer on the Divine Council.

Here: http://drmsh.com/?s=Divine%20Council

And

Here: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=michael+heiser+divine+council

And: You’ve Seen One Elohim, You’ve Seen Them All? A Critique of Mormonism’s Use of Psalm 82

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/pdf-control.php/publications/review/19/1/S00013-5176a81cbf97e13Heiser.pdf

Blogger Student in Blue October 25, 2017 2:43 PM  

The question is, was/is the Word, Elohim Yahweh?

The better answer is, "To what extent the Word overlaps with Elohim Yahweh, we have no possibly way of understanding, if it even overlaps at all."

Blogger S1AL October 25, 2017 2:43 PM  

@SiB - The guy's a Mormon, with all the associated Mormon kookery. Just keep that in Mind.

@Elder Son - I'm not sure what you're even discussing anymore. The Word (Jesus) was/is one with God the (Divine) Father, but he is not the Father. That oneness is *more* than just agreement. This is reiterated more times than I can recall.

Blogger Elder Son October 25, 2017 2:47 PM  

Yahweh is an elohim, but no other elohim are Yahweh.

Blogger Elder Son October 25, 2017 2:49 PM  

@146 There is no argument. The fact is, you and I, as far as I can tell, are in agreement. Maybe you and I are looking at each other sideways.

Blogger Student in Blue October 25, 2017 2:50 PM  

@S1AL

Oh I know. Eventually I wanted to move into the territory of, "How can you possibly keep the first commandment if you can become a god yourself?"

Anonymous mistaben October 25, 2017 2:57 PM  

marco, they're women. They will bend to whatever the dominant men say. As pyrrhus and Good Will have mentioned, there has been too much cuck nonsense among these women's husbands and prospects, but that is generational and therefore changing. It's amazing the bonds I see form between surviving members of the silent generation and young Mormon chads. They each recognize the attitude of the other, absent even in too many boomers and gen-xers.

Anonymous mistaben October 25, 2017 3:05 PM  

Good Will, I remember you. I also remember the difference between how you like to present yourself and your actual beliefs and actions.

In a thread last November Sherwood Family and Lobo Util demonstrated you were a perfect case study of being kicked out of an organization instead of being allowed to converge it from the inside. Your monomania and sperging out probably didn't help in the (self-)destruction of your marriage, your LDS membership, or your career. Ease up, man.

Blogger S1AL October 25, 2017 3:12 PM  

@ES - Gotcha. Seems likely.

@SiB - I include the ability to ignore obvious, irreconcilable, internal contradictions under the category of "kookery". :P

Blogger Markku October 25, 2017 3:15 PM  

One of our Mormons once put a curse on me here, all Old Testament style. Assured that I'd be begging for him to take it off, and he would refuse me. I was going to die of the curse soon. Funny shit. I wonder if it was Good Will.

Blogger RobertT October 25, 2017 3:19 PM  

Nobody will ever see this, but here it is anyway.
My money's on this one ... stupidest, most egotistical asshole ever.

Anonymous mistaben October 25, 2017 3:25 PM  

Markku,

Glorious! Please tell me you have that archived somewhere.

Blogger Markku October 25, 2017 3:29 PM  

Unfortunately not. I remember showing you guys the quote you-know-where and teasing you with it (it was several years ago) but I didn't think of archiving it. And you know how impossible it is to search old content from you-know-where.

Blogger Elder Son October 25, 2017 3:29 PM  

It helps when you read the bible without the Magical Mystery Tour goggles on. There is nothing mystical or magical about our Father. He is, after all, I AM THAT I AM. You just have to read His word, and take His word for it. Whether in heaven, or on earth, we are all His imagers. Christ, being the perfect manifestation of Gods image.

Blogger Elder Son October 25, 2017 3:31 PM  

And I'll preface that with Adam and Eve were perfect imagers, until they were not.

Blogger Student in Blue October 25, 2017 3:37 PM  

@S1AL
I include the ability to ignore obvious, irreconcilable, internal contradictions under the category of "kookery". :P

If only that didn't describe the vast majority of humanity!

Blogger S1AL October 25, 2017 3:39 PM  

Student in Blue wrote:If only that didn't describe the vast majority of humanity!

I can't begin to count the number of rational, intelligent people I know who throw all of that out whenever the concept of socialism is discussed. It's staggering to me.

Blogger Student in Blue October 25, 2017 4:08 PM  

@S1AL
I had a rambling paragraph in here because I wanted to work in a reference to "Kill Yr Idols" by Sonic Youth, but it was deleted as it just a bit too overwrought.

That said, I know that feeling. Cheers, man.

Blogger Dire Badger October 25, 2017 4:26 PM  

Good Will wrote:Mormon men are "pussy-whipped" cucks who, by and large, don't know God, wouldn't recognize Jesus' voice if they heard Him, are YUGE hypocrites who sleep around, diddle their future wives before they marry them in the temple, lie about their "worthiness," raise good families, and silently hope and pray all their porn surfing, fibbing, cheating, and drinking alcohol or pot smoking won't be discovered by anyone -- so they can claim all the "benefits" of "membership in good standing in the kingdom" and, hopefully, qualify to be "saved" when Christ returns (or they die, whichever comes first).

Mormons SAY they believe in Christ, the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healings, interpretation of tongues and so forth. But ASK a Mormon to share with you THEIR INTERACTION WITH CHRIST or ANY recent "prophecy" they've uttered (or heard spoken by "the Brethren"), ANY recent vision or revelation given, ANY incidence of divine, on-the-spot healing in Christ's name, ANY speaking in tongues or interpreting the same (without training), etc., and you will get CRICKETS.

Mormons BELIEVE these things. They just don't DO these things. And they PERSECUTE anyone who says he (or she) does. If you claim to have met Christ, in the flesh, personally -- heard His voice, seen His face, been carried to heaven by His Spirit, conversed with angels, etc. -- they will mock you, call you crazy, silence you and, ultimately, cast you out of their midst.

Oh, they believe these things -- for Lehi, Nephi, Mormon and Moroni, even for Joseph Smith and Thomas S. Monson!

Just not for YOU. (Because it's CERTAINLY not true for THEM.)


I am not even Mormon anymore and I still don't Drink, puff weed, or cheat. Take that with a grain of salt if you like, and I do make my money 'creating' furry porn for freaks, but assuming that all, or even a majority, of mormon dudes do these things is nothing more than pure projection.

And condemning people who strive for righteousness but fail to do so seems a little... cheap.

Based on your story, you sound like an utter nutball. I cannot blame them for asking you to shut and stop ranting up or get out. You have had a divine revelation? Great. Start your own church. Stop being mad at them for trying to protect their own from your gibbering looniness. They are, in the end, flawed humans.

I've had a divine revelation too... The reason There have been no miracles in a LONG time is because Christians agreed to settle for the nicene 'Truth by consensus' instead of the word of God. Jesus has left the building. We are Truly Fallen. The Trump happened, and those of us that remain missed the bus.

Sure, some of us can still get to heaven, and Jesus has given us a ladder, but the 'easy path' and the 'iron rod' are gone for good... Blatant Acts and Miracles are done, because we threw away 'faith' in favor of power and unity.

Blogger Dire Badger October 25, 2017 4:40 PM  

And BTW, that's the Beauty of Christianity. As long as we all strive to follow the word of Christ, we can create great things. We will ALL fail at times... we are only human, obviously, and humans fail. But at least we are trying... and that shared goal keeps us united as a culture, the greatest culture to ever exist.

Mormons, Catholics, Protestants, Roman Catholics, Baptists, whatever... as long as they still try to follow the Bible Their individual 'wrongness' can still be smoothed over. They may try to interpret the word differently, but as long as they do their best to TRY to follow the word they can still work together.

It's only those Jackasses to try and CHANGE the word, or blatantly oppose it under the auspices of 'this is the way the bible SHOULD read' that are beyond the pale.

Despite the insane heresy of the nicene creed, I still consider nicenes to be 'Christian'. Flawed, sure, but humans are always flawed.

Anonymous c matt October 25, 2017 4:53 PM  

When Jesus was baptized, the voice of the Father spoke from heaven saying, "Behold, thou art my son! This day have I begotten thee!" (That's what the Father REALLY said. The Gospels have since been changed -- and correlated -- to read: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.")

So you were there when the original was written, and when the changes were made? Dang, you must be old, but in phenomenal shape to still be able to post.

Anonymous c matt October 25, 2017 5:01 PM  

A non-Nicean Christian is simply an oxymoron, or in this thread, an oxymormon.

Blogger Student in Blue October 25, 2017 5:22 PM  

and I do make my money 'creating' furry porn for freaks

Tell me I'm not wrong in my observation that they all have WAY too much money to blow, right?

Anonymous Jill October 25, 2017 5:58 PM  

Ye old Facebook Christian groups...my, how I don't miss my days on Facebook. And I have no doubt there's a culture war on. It was obvious long before it touched my life. I can't even make up some of the shit that's occurred in my own life. Because I've been under investigation at my job, I'm wary of information I offer on the internet. I deleted dozens of my Periscope videos just in case I said something that could be perceived the wrong way. Heck, I don't even know if it's prudent to post here. But then, I've never been known to suffer from a proper amount of paranoia.

Anonymous Katt Brenner October 25, 2017 7:55 PM  

"There is a religious war going on in this country. It is a cultural war, as critical to the kind of nation we shall be as was the Cold War itself, for this war is for the soul of America." - St. Patrick J Buchanan, Aug. 17, 1992...the John the Baptist of the Alt Right...Roman Catholic

But, I'll take my "Roman Catholic propaganda" elsewhere.

Blogger marco moltisanti October 25, 2017 7:59 PM  

That's good to hear. Mormonism is an awesome culture in a lot of ways. Preserves much of the mentality of the New England and Scandinavia of previous centuries, at least in its unconverged form. I sometimes wish I still had that testimony I once had as a young naive man and could go back.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 25, 2017 8:05 PM  

@25 Quilp
Jonah Goldberg having a sad on Townhall made my week. His attempt to deify Buckley was just pathetic. They still can't believe people won't be running back to their book sales out the back of the cuckwagon, or booking passage on the "muh principles" cruise.
---

They burned their bridges even worse than the NFL is doing.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 25, 2017 8:06 PM  

@26 marco moltisanti

I've never been able to understand why the view that was decided on in a counsel called hundred of years after the death of the apostles by a pagan emperor with worldly, political motives is considered a central pillar of Christian belief.
---

I've been wondering this myself lately

Blogger Were-Puppy October 25, 2017 8:14 PM  

@53 Dire Badger
I still haven't found any examples of 'Judeo Christ'
---

Judeo Christs greatest achievement was convincing people he was there.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 25, 2017 8:15 PM  

@56 wreckage

What makes a man turn neutral?
---

Fear

Blogger AaMcavoy October 25, 2017 8:47 PM  

Good Will, for the love of all good things, stop pretending you're Mormon. You were kicked out, and no one believes it's because you're noble, normal, and good.

Blogger Rashadjin October 25, 2017 8:51 PM  

Dire Badger wrote:marco moltisanti wrote:@20:

A lot of you are more knowledgeable on theocracy than me. Can you explain to me why most mainstream Christians consider the Nicean creed a prerequisite for being considered a genuine Christian? I get that seeing the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as separate beings is a pretty essential difference from mainstream Christians, but it seems like a view that could be supported from the Bible depending on your interpretation. I've never been able to understand why the view that was decided on in a counsel called hundred of years after the death of the apostles by a pagan emperor with worldly, political motives is considered a central pillar of Christian belief.


I wouldn't expect an answer. I have been asking that same question for almost 20 years, and NO ONE seems to be able to justify it biblically...They all just quote athasian like it is somehow every bit as valid as The words of the apostles.

I would LOVE a good, thought-out and rational rational explanation, from a philosophical, psychological, or even decently grounded theological point of view.... but the only answers anyone seems able to provide involve arrogant, self-satisfied "WE are saved and you are going to hell" prattling. Which is ironic because, last time I checked, Jesus himself stated pretty clearly that the only person who gets to judge who is going to hell is God himself.

Frankly, I don't much care if devout Muslims are going to heaven or hell. I simply want to help expedite the decision-making process.


Challenge Accepted.

In the Bible, God often refers to himself in the plural (particularly the Old Testament), yet is held to be a single entity all the same. That single entity is clarified to be Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That's the theological basis from scripture.

Next, we wander into psychology, parts of which have recently figured out that humans can and do develop subpersonalities.

It's a thing relatively common for creative types, particularly writers. Some of our characters become distinct subpersonalities that we can have an honest conversation with. They're kind of sub-creations, or sub-beings, housed within the human mind. In one sense, we're talking to ourselves when we chat with them. In another sense, we're chatting with someone who is not us in that they think and act and sometimes even speak differently than we, the dominant personality, do. And no, I'm not talking multiple personality disorder, although that may be a very extreme example of someone developing subpersonalities.

Now instead of having subpersonalities, imagine a collection of co-equal personalities housed within a single being.

Now shift the concept of co-equal personalities into co-equal expressions of the same being. It's sort of like God having three 'modes' of relating to and existing alongside humanity except that these modes function as distinct entities in a sense that's more true and complete than what humans manage when they pull together a sub-personality. But by the same coin, God's co-equal expressions are a single being in the same sort of way that the dominate and subpersonalities within a single human are one being.

The Christian Trinity hasn't seemed perplexing to me in a long, long time. Which isn't to say that I'm right, just that sanity is overrated.

RE: #110 - Good Will
I've long held that the Mormon faith is an uppity cult, and that's exactly how cults do culting. Thanks for another notch to that tally?

Also - No, I'm not interesting in getting into a cat fight about it. And yes, it's a bit of a cheap shot that way...

Blogger Dire Badger October 25, 2017 9:02 PM  

Student in Blue wrote:and I do make my money 'creating' furry porn for freaks

Tell me I'm not wrong in my observation that they all have WAY too much money to blow, right?


You are definitely not wrong.

I have one dude that is into mind control fatties that spends an average of 300 bucks a week on his weird ass fap fuel.

All I care is, 65 bucks for 23 minutes worth of work. No boss, no interest in the subject matter.

I DO look forward to when people ask me to do 'character art' for like their D&D or superhero RPG characters, though... Those are enormous fun, and I usually give them a lot more than they pay for.

Blogger Rashadjin October 25, 2017 10:11 PM  

#175 - Continued...

Because, oh yeah, I was suppose to explain why you need this sort of Nicene Creed Trinitarian view of God to be a Christian.

Humans can only serve one master, which has been painfully demonstrated throughout history and the Bible. If you split God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, you create three masters, and then faith and the community of the Church goes all sorts of bad.

More fundamentally, tho', God's character is expressed through the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. If you do not see God, singular, as being all three, you end up with the Old Testament 'mean' God competing against the New Testament 'buddy' Jesus. Because American Christianity has strayed from a proper trinitarian view of God, it's become cucked, as we so quaintly like to say.

Long story short - God is three in one so that we can't put him in one of our convenient boxes and screw it all up. It takes the wholeness of the trinity for us to properly understand him. And even then, we're trying very hard to fail at it.

Blogger marco moltisanti October 25, 2017 10:25 PM  

"it's become cucked, as we so quaintly like to say."

Isn't "cucked" the exact opposite of quaint? I get that we need a vicious, humiliating term to shame traitors to the cause, etc. but I've never liked it personally. Quaint would be calling them scoundrels or something.

Blogger R Beisert October 25, 2017 10:54 PM  

A verse that is found in the catalog of the Byzantine texts but which is not found in the modern lexicons (and, it should be noted, slightly falls short of the "majority of texts" criteria of the Majority Text) sheds further light on the nature of the Trinity:

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Now, it can be said that this verse was added to the text at a later date than its origin, and unfortunately I lack evidence to refute this claim, but this verse serves well to combine other textual references to the Trinity.

---

Deuteronomy 6:4 - Hear, O Israel, the LORD is our God. The LORD is One (Hebrew word "echad", meaning "one" as a cluster of grapes is "one" - united but distinct).

Mark 3:29 - But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.

---

By this, in addition to Matthew 28:19-20 (The Great Commission), we are given to understand that these three distinct persons are One God. The Father is very God; the Son is very God; the Holy Spirit is very God. I believe it to be incorrect to suggest that these are three incarnations of God, but rather that these three persons are distinct but united. Were they incarnations, the Father and the Son would not speak to and of one another as they do, nor would Christ be ignorant of the day and the hour (which only the Father in heaven knows). However, neither are they wholly separate entities, lest they not be "one".

This summarizes my current understanding of the Trinity.

Blogger Rashadjin October 25, 2017 11:25 PM  

marco moltisanti wrote:"it's become cucked, as we so quaintly like to say."

Isn't "cucked" the exact opposite of quaint? I get that we need a vicious, humiliating term to shame traitors to the cause, etc. but I've never liked it personally. Quaint would be calling them scoundrels or something.


I enjoy my peculiar sense of irony. So yes, that they're opposites is exactly the point.

And balances the part where 'cucked' is a very appropriate word for the attitude that pervades American Christianity while giving your discomfort a nod. I'm not exactly happy about it either, but then, 'feckless' doesn't quite evoke the damage said attitude has done and is doing.

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim October 25, 2017 11:36 PM  

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Blogger Sterling Pilgrim October 25, 2017 11:38 PM  

1. When asked which was the greatest commandment, Jesus replied, "Love the lord with all your might..."
This is an instance where Jesus quotes Scripture, the passage is the Shama, Deut. 6:4-9. It is called Shama because the first word is שמע (sha-ma) "hear or listed". “Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God, the YHWH is one.” That last part, "YHWH is one" is the a declaration of monotheism. God cannot be separate beings and remain אחד (ehad- one,alone,only). Yet, at the Baptism, we clearly see the three persons of the Trinity. As Jesus rises from the water, the Father says, "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased," as the Holy Spirit descends on Him as a dove. Three distinct persons.

2. Constantine was NOT a pagan. His father was, but his mother was s devout Christian. Constantine had a "deathbed confession" which was common for the time. People believed the false idea sins after confession would not be forgiven. Constantine legalized Christianity and used his power to bring a council together to address the leading heretical sect led by Arius. Though Constantine sat over the Council of Nicaea, he did not hold authority over their decision. Think about the way a Chief Justice presides over an Impeachment trial or the Vice President presides over the Senate. In all three, they can and do contribute, but do not hold final decision.

3. The Council of Nicaea was about Arianism, Arius teaching that Christ was the first created being. There are a legion of problem with his view. John 1:1 is a big one, "In the beginning was God and the Word was with God and the Word was God." John goes on to explicate the Word took flesh as Jesus Christ.
Arianism is a heresy. Heresy is a technical term meaning "a false teach that cost the believer salvation." So, if I believed the apostles were actually the Harlem Globe Trotters, set back through time to First Century Palestine, the teaching would be false. The belief would not affect my salvation, therefore it would not be a heresy. Arianism DOES affect salvation. If Jesus was a created being, his death and resurrection only affects Him. He cannot die for the sins of the world but only lives as an example of how we should act. Therefore, the false teaching is a heresy.

4. The Nicene Creed has some base in the Apostles' Creed. It goes further by explicating the Trinity.

5. The quote is well informed... by Dan Brown; "The De Vinci Code". Michael Bay gets more correct about his source material than Dan Brown gets corrects about history. The church has always been Trinitarian. Not Trinitarian views are heresy. Again, heresy is not a "crime against the church" it is false belief that cost salvation. I relate this to by analogy of knowing Michael Jackson. You and I both went to school with Micheal. I played in the band with him. If we had gone to a Michael Jackson concert, could we get back-stage passes because we knew the white, country boy from Mississippi? No, it's ludicrous to think saying, "Michael Jackson is my friend," would get us past the bouncer. Even if it did, Michael Jackson would look at both of us and say, "I don't know you." The same is true of a false version of Jesus. If we do not know the true Jesus Christ, if we follow a false Jesus, Jesus will say to us, "I don't know you."

Blogger Andrew Brown October 26, 2017 3:29 AM  

Read the King Follett Sermon by Joseph Smith. I think you'll find he states God was once a man like us. And it's common Mormon knowledge that the devil was necessary to get Adam & Eve to sin in order to further God's work.

Blogger Dire Badger October 26, 2017 5:42 AM  

Hmm... interesting. Since when did 'chose' and 'necessary' become synonyms?

And it is no less interesting than the question from Genesis... If God made Man in his own image, then doesn't it follow that God is a Man? Are you so arrogant that you assume that god Cannot CHOOSE to be a man?

it's an interesting theological question, but frankly I have zero interest in your answer. consider it rhetorical if you wish.

I may not be a Mormon, but I get as tired of idiots that have to lie about mormonism in order to prosecute it as I do of leftists that lie about the civil war and Atheists that Lie about the Crusades and inquisition.

Educate yourself. Do your own research. When you listen to some fool with a 'bone to pick' he is going to lie to you in order to further his own agenda. It's simple human nature.

Blogger Dire Badger October 26, 2017 5:59 AM  

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Blogger Dire Badger October 26, 2017 6:01 AM  

It's really very simple. God is God. There is only one god.

Jesus is not god. Jesus states as much repeatedly. He is our savior, our redeemer, and the son of God. We FOLLOW Jesus, we do not WORSHIP him. If anyone worships Jesus, he is denying god, and disobeying the very first commandment in a way that Jesus EXPLICITLY said not to do.

Christians are followers of Christ. They are not worshippers of Christ as a false god.

You know, there are like 60 verses in the bible which directly conflict with the 'proof by consensus' of the Nicene creed.

Here's an article I suspect you will ignore that will save me 40 minutes of typing that you will just ignore. Trinitarians have been 'peer reviewing' their doctrine for 1800 years. Protestantism was the best thing that ever happened to the church... too bad it didn't last.

http://www.bibleanswerstand.org/worshipped.htm

Blogger Student in Blue October 26, 2017 8:14 AM  

Long story short - God is three in one so that we can't put him in one of our convenient boxes and screw it all up. It takes the wholeness of the trinity for us to properly understand him. And even then, we're trying very hard to fail at it.

Also, uh, it's kinda hard to "have no other gods before me" if God is somehow three gods.

Blogger S1AL October 26, 2017 8:49 AM  

"We FOLLOW Jesus, we do not WORSHIP him. If anyone worships Jesus, he is denying god, and disobeying the very first commandment in a way that Jesus EXPLICITLY said not to do."

You're a liar.

Blogger Dire Badger October 26, 2017 3:00 PM  

S1AL wrote:"We FOLLOW Jesus, we do not WORSHIP him. If anyone worships Jesus, he is denying god, and disobeying the very first commandment in a way that Jesus EXPLICITLY said not to do."

You're a liar.


You're a fool.

Blogger SirHamster October 26, 2017 3:45 PM  

Dire Badger wrote:S1AL wrote:"We FOLLOW Jesus, we do not WORSHIP him. If anyone worships Jesus, he is denying god, and disobeying the very first commandment in a way that Jesus EXPLICITLY said not to do."

You're a liar.


You're a fool.


"Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!""

"For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength."

Blogger Good Will October 26, 2017 3:47 PM  

Markku wrote:One of our Mormons once put a curse on me here, all Old Testament style. Assured that I'd be begging for him to take it off, and he would refuse me. I was going to die of the curse soon. Funny shit. I wonder if it was Good Will.

I wasn't me who "cursed" you, Markku. (I hold you in the highest respect.)

Blogger Good Will October 26, 2017 3:53 PM  

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Blogger Good Will October 26, 2017 3:55 PM  

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Blogger Good Will October 26, 2017 3:57 PM  

Okay, I've finally figured this thing out....

c matt wrote:When Jesus was baptized, the voice of the Father spoke from heaven saying, "Behold, thou art my son! This day have I begotten thee!" (That's what the Father REALLY said. The Gospels have since been changed -- and correlated -- to read: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.")

So you were there when the original was written, and when the changes were made? Dang, you must be old, but in phenomenal shape to still be able to post.


Paul referred to it. David prophesied it. The Catholic Church (or its predecessor) later edited it. That's my understanding, by the voice of the Spirit.

Blogger Good Will October 26, 2017 4:04 PM  

AaMcavoy wrote:Good Will, for the love of all good things, stop pretending you're Mormon. You were kicked out, and no one believes it's because you're noble, normal, and good.

I'm not a Mormon. (I just believe the Book of Mormon is true.)

I'm probably not noble, normal or good, either. (Whatever gave you that idea?)

But for those interested in knowing Jesus personally in this life, this book (besides the Book of Mormon) is, perhaps, the best primer.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6t-rQr3iLAsVlYtLUFZVVFxMkU/view

Blogger Good Will October 26, 2017 4:25 PM  

Dire Badger wrote:S1AL wrote:"We FOLLOW Jesus, we do not WORSHIP him. If anyone worships Jesus, he is denying god, and disobeying the very first commandment in a way that Jesus EXPLICITLY said not to do."

You're a liar.


You're a fool.


In the Book of Mormon, Jesus reported to His Father that those who prayed to Him (Christ) did so only because He (Christ) was with them. Even so, He made intercession for them.

"22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.
23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one." (3 Nephi 19:22-23.)

This verse implies that Christ may be "in" those who believe in Him even as the Father is "in" Christ. Hmmm.

It may be true that the Father (who is greater than the Son) is NOT the Son. (They may, in fact, be two separate Personages...or two separate manifestations of the same Personage. I don't know. I've never seen or met the Father -- that I know of.)

But Christ now is, in all ways, even as His Father.

"21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (Rev. 3:21.)

If Christ overcame and is sat on His Father's thone, is it blasphemy to assume that His Father did not do likewise? Jesus said: "I can do nothing but what I see my Father do."

In any regard, They both sit TOGETHER as "one."

Blogger S1AL October 26, 2017 7:17 PM  

Someone already pointed out the verse where Jesus was unambiguously acknowledged as "God". I'll leave it at that.

Blogger Markku October 26, 2017 8:40 PM  

I wasn't me who "cursed" you, Markku. (I hold you in the highest respect.)

Ok. I seem to recall noticing certain patterns that implied to me that this person was not either in the "main" LDS, which made me think of you. But I also vaguely recall that the name was one that I only rarely saw in Mormon threads, though I had seen it before. So, that would not be consistent with you.

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