ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2018 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Thursday, October 12, 2017

Retreat in Catalonia

Spain and the EU managed to call the Catalan bluff:
Don’t let the cheers in the Catalan Parliament fool you. There’s been a full-blooded retreat from the separatists. After rowdy demonstrations, a covert referendum (which drew a violent response from Spanish police) and vows to set up a new republic, Catalan President Carles Puigdemont blinked.

Many lawmakers gathered for a special session of the regional legislature were hoping to hear a declaration of independence. Instead, he put the process on hold to make another appeal for talks with the Spanish government. No deadline. No leverage. And Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy’s response was powerful: he started the process that could see Puigdemont’s administration stripped of its powers.

Already last night cracks were opening up in the separatist coalition, suggesting a regional election may be necessary next year.

Perhaps Puigdemont had no real choice. The EU made it clear an independent Catalonia would be isolated. The region’s biggest companies were pulling out. And elite Spanish police officers were waiting to arrest him.
The reason the Catalan bid for independence is going to fail is that they don't want actually want to be independent. They simply want to move up one rung on the EU totem pole. And that isn't something that anyone in their right mind is going to fight or die for.

The Spanish misplayed this situation badly, but were ultimately saved by the fact that the Catalans were always ultimately hoping for the EU to swoop in and tell its member state that it had to let Catalonia go. Once the EU belatedly clear that it had no intention of doing so and called the Catalan bluff, the secessionists had no choice but to blink. Because they never, ever, intended to fight.

Labels: ,

71 Comments:

Anonymous Looking Glass October 12, 2017 11:07 AM  

No real leverage and no ability to make greater Spain flinch at the thought of another civil war. Spanish government botched a huge amount of the situation, but the instant they brought out real force it was over.

No one in Catalonia was playing Realpolitik and it showed.

Blogger S1AL October 12, 2017 11:09 AM  

http://www.nytimes.com/1860/11/30/news/letter-from-mr-madison-on-the-right-of-secession.html

Madison had most of this nailed down centuries ago. The choice is mutual agreement or Revolution.

Anonymous Andrew E. October 12, 2017 11:11 AM  

So does this whole saga affect or influence California leftists in any way?

Anonymous TheDarkWizard October 12, 2017 11:14 AM  

The fight to secede just to be controlled by a different foreign bureaucratic government is the height of stupidity. They never wanted actual independence.

I always imagine the oft discussed "cal-exit" would play out in similar fashion.

Blogger Nate October 12, 2017 11:14 AM  

Cowards. A pox on them.

Anonymous Brent Wood October 12, 2017 11:15 AM  

I'm not sure Bloomburg is the most reliable source for information on Puigdemont's strategy. He has a weak hand but is playing it brilliantly. Confusing his opponents and buying time are important components of a winning strategy. Think of it as a game of checkers in which Puigdemont is outnumbered 2:1 and bouncing back and fourth in the corner waiting for Rajoy to give the game to him with a mistake. What do you think the odds are of Rajoy winning the game with a decisive and correct move?

Anonymous aegis-1080 October 12, 2017 11:15 AM  

Rajoy once again manages to get by because every alternative is worse.

Spanish politics, everyone!

Puigdemont has a severe case of cuck face so is no surprise that he blinked. Rajoy said "Surrender or I will just go all in" and a lot of business went away from the possible Civil War field, so there's that.

BTW, Rajoy says "WTF was that yes but no shit, either fully surrender or else".

Blogger Dexter October 12, 2017 11:18 AM  

Just look at a photo of zero charisma, zero testosterone Pudgy, and you know he's gonna fold every time.

Blogger Student in Blue October 12, 2017 11:20 AM  

Once the EU belatedly clear that it had no intention of doing so

The sentence is missing a "made it", either as "Once the EU belatedly made it clear" or "Once the EU made it belatedly clear"

Anonymous Steve October 12, 2017 11:22 AM  

The reason the Catalan bid for independence is going to fail is that they don't want actually want to be independent

Yarp. And still - they'd have gotten away with it too, if Cuck Puigdemont had used the momentum he had immediately following the referendum.

Would the EU really have tossed out Catalonia? Probably not. They'd most likely have come up with a fudge which kept them in for all practical purposes, even if there was some face-saving technical demotion to associate or EEA status.

Revolutions happen quickly, or not at all.

Blogger Lazarus October 12, 2017 11:24 AM  

Pudgy has five days to declare whether he has actually declared independence or not, and then if he does, he has 3 days to rescind the declaration.

I am not exactly sure what Deus Ex Machina they are expecting.

Anonymous Nick October 12, 2017 11:29 AM  

Social Justice Seperatists

Anonymous Brent Wood October 12, 2017 11:31 AM  

"Revolutions happen quickly, or not at all." Secession is not revolution, and successful/peaceful secession movements different still. Secession is rarely swift, and momentum often builds over generations. Norway's separation from Sweden is instructive in this instance. So too is South Carolina's rash action in separating separately, immediately, and unsucessfully rather than waiting to unite a divided South around a few core common principles

Blogger James Dixon October 12, 2017 11:35 AM  

> Because they never, ever, intended to fight.

The leadership never intended to fight. There is a chance they may find out they don't get to make the decision.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 12, 2017 11:37 AM  

Austria will turn 'right' in Sunday's election, the only question is how far and how hard

The Freedom Party is strongly euroskeptic. And while it has long distanced itself from its Nazi roots, and its leader, Hans-Christian Strache, has dismissed his own links with neo-Nazi organizations as youthful folly, its presence in a government could present a new challenge to moderate EU governments shortly after Germany's anti-migrant and EU-critical AfD gained seats in the federal parliament for the first time.


e People's Party has a new head — and a new message. Since taking over this spring, Foreign Minister Sebastian Kurz has essentially usurped the Freedom Party stance on migration and fears of radical Islam as he taps into what pollsters identify as voters' greatest concern.

A coalition between these two parties with the tradleft Social Democrats reduced to opposition status is possible. Austria has banned the burkha and shut down Brenner pass. They are just getting started.

Anonymous Steve October 12, 2017 12:06 PM  

Secession is not revolution

It is when the country you're separating from has no intent to bismillah let you go.

Anonymous Yann October 12, 2017 12:08 PM  

Catalonia fighted amazingly well the image war. But they didn't want to go further.

This was the analysis from Jordi Pujol, who is the traditional key figure in the Catalan nationalism:

https://associacioserviol.cat/la-rotundidad-de-cataluna/

And he used a sentence from a Spanish politician to define the differences between Basque and Catalan nationalism "There will be no gunshots in Catalonia, but they can put Spain against the wall using democracy. In the Basque Country there's a problem of violence, but it's not such a categorical nationalism as Catalonia"

However, and the end of the day, you must take it. There's no other way. If something could stop the military, besides guns, it's the people in the streets. But the momentum is lost. Right now, Spain can just wait until it chills down and then arrest Catalan leaders. Unless they're using this week to bring guns, and I don't think so, they're lost.

Anonymous Ages October 12, 2017 12:20 PM  

Andrew E. wrote:So does this whole saga affect or influence California leftists in any way?

I hope not. If CA wants to leave, I will hold the door open and shake their hand as they go.

Blogger James Dixon October 12, 2017 12:34 PM  

> So does this whole saga affect or influence California leftists in any way?

Since when have leftists ever learned anything from reality?

But as Ages says, I'm fine with California leaving, as long as they allow for individual counties to stay. I want the matter of peaceful secession to finally be settled in law.

Anonymous BBGKB October 12, 2017 12:46 PM  

I always imagine the oft discussed "cal-exit" would play out in similar fashion.

It will be years before any talk of Puerto Rican succession. Shitlibs talked about how big a market it is, while forgetting most of the market is spending welfare money.

Anonymous Anonymous October 12, 2017 12:49 PM  

See now there are parallels:

We are told that the civil war was over slavery. But what poor southern boy from some farm was going to take up arms so that his rich neighbor down the way could keep his slaves?

The left thinks they are going to get some kind of civil war going. Who is going to fight and die so:
- some dingbat can get an abortion
- so leftist teachers can transsexualize kids
- Hollywood can continue to pump trash into the public mind

And so who is going to fight and die so they can live in an EU vassal state?

Blogger Sillon Bono October 12, 2017 12:57 PM  

The reason the Catalan bid for independence is going to fail is that they don't want actually want to be independent.

They want to be an associated state, they want Spain to pay for defense, infrastructure, etc, and at the same time have separate legal systems so the national Spanish courts can't touch the corruption of the "Burguesia Catalana".

The independentists never intended to fight because they are the minority and because the non-secessionists never open their mouths, once the non-secessionists Catalonias made a show of force they suddenly appealed to not escalate further.

The only thing that I can find the Catalonian secesionists to compare to is SJW they always lie, they always double down and they destroy anything they touch.

The Spaniards are sick of their whining to the bone, and when told to shut the fuck up they claim "Spain hates everybody in Catalonia".

And yes, the secessionists know how to play the anglo media like if it was a lovely Stradivarius while the Spanish government looks stupid.

Blogger Howard Stone October 12, 2017 1:10 PM  

Is Vox in twitter jail again?

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar October 12, 2017 1:42 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar October 12, 2017 1:43 PM  

Do not mistake Catalans with Catalan nationalists. Different things.

The displays of support for Spain in Catalonia are at an all-time high these days. It's even moving to watch. Today, the Catalan businessman Josep Bou shouted the most absolutely devoted "¡Viva España!" I've heard in my lifetime. He was in Barcelona, facing thousands carrying Spanish flags, celebrating Spain's national holiday.
https://twitter.com/alextortsagues/status/918432499063230469

On October 8th, +500 thousand Catalans marched in the streets of Barcelona. Many nationalists were in shock, because they have efforted all these years to silence this part of the population. They quickly started pushing the argument that they came from the rest of Spain, a stupid allegation, given that non-Catalan demonstrators might've been even less than 5%.

They were in shock at the brazenness with which they were boasting Spanish symbols.

Give me 40 years of propaganda, control over education and millions of euros (the ANC, or the Assemblea Nacional de Catalunya, has received +20 million € during the past years), and I'll make people from Utah want independence. One essential journalist to understand the Catalan issue, José García Domínguez, makes the observation that one of the failings of Catalan nationalism has been that, despite having a virtual monopoly on narrative during the past 40 years in Catalonia, they have still not convinced 50% of the population. Which goes to show that the Spanish nation is not an administrative skeleton, but is very real and carries a lot of inertia in itself.

Their only chance is for the Madrid government to let them keep control over the media and education and keep their project of "national construction" (construcció nacional). Should this happen, I'm afraid that they'll eventually win. For now, the game hasn't been decided yet.

Anonymous Anonymous October 12, 2017 1:46 PM  

Sovereignty association.

Now go find a chain-smoking Acadien with a bad combover and you have the Quebec/Canada relationship.

Anonymous fop October 12, 2017 1:52 PM  

1) Get weapons.
2) Declare revolution.

It doesn't really work so good in reverse.

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales October 12, 2017 1:58 PM  

"The reason the Catalan bid for independence is going to fail is that they don't want actually want to be independent."

Should read: 'The reason the Catalan bid for independence is going to fail is that they don't want to actually be independent."

Alternatively: 'The reason the Catalan bid for independence is going to fail is that they don't actually want to be independent."

Or, even more alternatively, some would say 'Alt-Right' alternatively:
'The reason the Catalan bid for independence is going to fail is because the Catalans are a bunch of divided, willfully unarmed, globalist pussies who just want the cheddar they get from the EU themselves, the eurotrash, eurofag, fucking commie weasels."

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales October 12, 2017 2:05 PM  

"Once the EU belatedly clear that it had no intention of doing so and called the Catalan bluff, the secessionists had no choice but to blink."

Should read: 'Once the EU belatedly made it clear that it had no intention of doing so and called the Catalan bluff, the secessionists had no choice but to blink.'

Alternatively, if you wanted to use the word 'blatantly,' in place of 'belatedly,' then it goes like: 'Once the EU blatantly made it clear that it had no intention of doing so and called the Catalan bluff, the secessionists had no choice but to blink.'

Or, Alt-Right alternatively: "The muscles in Brussels didn't want to flex their muscles and PO one of its better member states for the creation of another, smaller, much weaker one, so they were all like, 'Nah, man. You're on your own if you go through with it, home skillet. Hope ya'll like Spanish sausages up your sphincters! Viva Espana! Viva!"

Blogger daddynichol October 12, 2017 2:32 PM  

If American blacks demand and establish their own country within US borders, they would also demand that the rest of the country continue to pay their bills. Independence of culture, but not independence from the EBT card. Observational reality also indicates this would be true for most other socially progressive groups. LaRaza, LGBTQTXYZ, feminists.

Anonymous VFM 9054 October 12, 2017 3:38 PM  

@21 They will fight, not because they want to continue to allow dingbats to get abortions, but because, when we win, we are going to hang them. Not all of them, certainly, but enough to make the point. And since they know perfectly well that we will hold Nuremberg II, they will fight. What do you think antifa is about? They are merely trying to intimidate us, believing that we are still the conservatives they remember, and hoping we will submit.

The situation with Catalonia and the US are not parallel in the slightest.

Blogger Sillon Bono October 12, 2017 3:56 PM  

@31

The situation with Catalonia and the US are not parallel in the slightest.

Thank you.

This is something some people have been pointing from the start.

The catalonian separatism is a scam. One very well orchestrated and well played in the media.

But yeah, we have spent an evening or two in Barcelona and we understand all that is going on, these evil and brutish Spaniards.

Savages, pure savages, compared to the poor oppresed and sophisticated secesionists, the fact that they have been closed to start a likey bloody civil revolt os because of "muh freedoms"

Why is it that nobody has been asking for proof of the supposed Spanish oppression? There should be lots of proof since 1978 isn't?

Anonymous krymneth October 12, 2017 4:13 PM  

So the interesting question to me is, now what?

That the separatist bid is over does not mean history stops or that the actions taken will have no further consequences. If Catalan was never really serious or capable of independence, what will happen in the next few years? Because the fact remains that Spain made some very poor 4GW moves.

But only time will tell.

Blogger Jonathon Davies October 12, 2017 4:26 PM  

There is no helping some people. They like chains. To them it feels like security.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 12, 2017 4:31 PM  

@32 silion bono

This is something some people have been pointing from the start.


Yeah, we know. It's like y'all in Spain can't actually read and process what people here are writing. Maybe language barrier?

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales October 12, 2017 4:36 PM  

@36

Well, you know what they say about the rain in Spain, after all.

Blogger Chent October 12, 2017 4:38 PM  

[Catalan] don't want actually want to be independent. They simply want to move up one rung on the EU totem pole"

Yes, only less than 50% of Catalans want this. Catalan secessionists are not that fond of real independence, they are rather anti-Spanish. For example, see the Catalan president asking for inclusion in the international organization of French-speaking countries, back in 2014.

https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2014/05/23/actualidad/1400879854_036039.html

(Catalan language has nothing to do with French language, but as Argentine writer Jorge Luis Borges said, "Catalans are Spaniards than want to be French and they can't. They are wannabes".)

This is why Catalan secessionists are the most pro-EU people in the world. Being European means not being Spaniards.

The other half of Catalonia also exists, despite the Catalan government and the secessionists wanting to silence it and wanting to speak as if they were the only ones. Last Sunday, the demonstration against independence had from 350,000 to one million.

Blogger Jan Minář October 12, 2017 4:40 PM  

"Reparations"

Blogger Chent October 12, 2017 4:48 PM  

By the way, they have always been globalists, multiculturalist, pro-Muslim, left-wing and SJW.

Don't miss the "Antifa platform of the University of Barcelona" wanting to expel non-secessionist people from the University.

Do you imagine an Antifa platform supporting Viktor Orban? These are not this kind of nationalists.

https://okdiario.com/espana/2017/10/09/separatistas-hacen-lista-negra-estudiantes-fueron-marcha-del-domingo-1401249

They have converged all kinds of organizations from chess clubs to the Church. We are in dire need of a de-convergence manual.

Blogger Chent October 12, 2017 5:01 PM  

But the game is not finished yet. They still want to get the independence by playing the victim, two weeks from now. Stay tuned.

Meanwhile, you can see the predictions I made last September 28. My accuracy has been 100% so far.

https://voxday.blogspot.com/2017/09/catalonian-update.html?showComment=1506609922805#c8380404761816261497

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales October 12, 2017 5:21 PM  

Speaking of retreat, Vox, I've seen some very disparaging comments from presumably rightwing commenters on a Bill Whittle video discussing recent Satanist lawfare in Missouri.

https://www.billwhittle.com/right-angle/satanists-lawyer

I was wondering what your thoughts were on the subject and on people on the right somehow finding 'common ground' with these devilish curs, as appears to be the case in the comment section of the vid. I already know you don't believe in Freedom of Religion anymore than I do, but I was just wondering if you had anything more specific to say and could offer some advice as to how to navigate that potential minefield.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother October 12, 2017 5:36 PM  

WILL NOT LET YOU GO

Anonymous normally a lurker October 12, 2017 6:06 PM  

@33
I also suspect this is going to put a damper on future EU attempts to interfere with members by promoting regionalism.

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales October 12, 2017 6:11 PM  

@43

That good or bad? My gut tells me that's good since the already existing European nation states that are really Empires won't have to worry as much... but then again, people within European nation states that are really Empires that are genuine nationalists might rise up, fight the national Empire they're apart of, and then get weakened so the point that they both end up under Brussels' muscles anyways.

Anonymous VFM #6306 October 12, 2017 6:17 PM  

Savages, pure savages, compared to the poor oppresed and sophisticated secesionists, the fact that they have been closed to start a likey bloody civil revolt os because of "muh freedoms"

BS strawman argument. I can't recall a single argument here that has consisted of catalonians being considered sophisticated.

The Spaniards were retarded, and they fumbled the war. Badly. So they didn't lose? The morons shouldn't have been waging it in the first place. How difficult would it have been to request an EU declaration and allow the vote to fail on its own. Spain would have looked reasonable and Catalonia a fool.

Instead, Spain looks like the winner of a fistfight, and Catalonia the frightened, beaten wife.

Some champion!

Blogger Phat Repat October 12, 2017 6:42 PM  

Zzzz As stated, Not.Gonna.Happen
And that goes for ANY state in the US as well. You think we're going to allow you to create a potentially hostile 'State' in close proximity (let alone give up an entire coast)? Uh, no.

Blogger Quadko October 12, 2017 6:59 PM  

Phat Repat wrote:You think we're going to allow you to create a potentially hostile 'State' in close proximity
Shhhhh! The plan is to let them secede, accept the US citizens who flee, then invade and take back the land while ejecting everyone who stayed and became Calistanians. Don't ruin it!

Anonymous Mitchell October 12, 2017 7:23 PM  

Puigdemont is a coward, and he deserves to die like a coward. As for the rest of the Catalans, well, I hope Spain takes more of their tax revenue and invests it in the other regions. This whole affair has shown that when it comes right down to it, the Catalans are fit to be nothing more than slaves.

Anonymous krymneth October 12, 2017 7:48 PM  

And then what happens, Mitchell?

Anonymous Orion Rising October 12, 2017 7:50 PM  

So the Catalunya independence movement was basically virtue signalling towards the EU?

Blogger xavier October 12, 2017 7:55 PM  

Catalans have been paying for the local Extramaduran public govt for years and Barajas as well the bullet train.

It's too bad the 2 national parties in Madrid aren't federalists.those parties treat saunas a conquered territory That's to be despoiled perpetually.
If both parties just gave Catalan more control of money, transport, culture and limited international presence within their competencies they'd be happy. Notveveything has to pass through Madrid.
xavier

Blogger newbietrader October 12, 2017 8:45 PM  

what about FREEEEEDUUUUMMMBBB?

hahaha told all you idiot "democracy" supporters that this whole thing was a scam by the PRO EU PRO LEFTIST PRO OPEN BORDERS ERC

you dumb azz alt righters fell for the Scottish leftist SNP crap last year and the leftist ERC crap this year. oh right, that's cause you morons are actually leftists

guess mr. 150 IQ ain't so smart after all

Blogger Lazarus October 12, 2017 8:56 PM  

newbietrader wrote:what about FREEEEEDUUUUMMMBBB?

Boy, you sure done beat that strawman to death. U R smart.

Blogger Lazarus October 12, 2017 8:58 PM  

xavier wrote:If both parties just gave Catalan more control of money, transport, culture and limited international presence within their competencies they'd be happy.

Until they weren't, somewhere down the road.

Blogger Chent October 12, 2017 9:05 PM  

Because they never, ever, intended to fight.

No, they claimed that they could obtain independence only by showing the world how amazing they are. And complaining and whining and playing the victim.

So the European Union will come and give them independence, and membership of the EU. I am not kidding. Former Catalan president Artur Mas said: "Europe can't do without 7 million Catalans".

This arrogance came from a country whose public debt is a junk bond and their banks and hundreds of companies have flown to escape the independence.

Blogger Chent October 12, 2017 9:17 PM  

xavier wrote:
"If both parties just gave Catalan more control of money, transport, culture and limited international presence within their competencies they'd be happy."


Until they weren't, somewhere down the road.


You have just summarized the history of Catalonia for the last 40 years.

Catalonian nationalism: If you give me more money and power, I will be happy.

Spain: Ok, you can have more money and power.

Catalonian nationalism: If you give me more money and power, I will be happy.

Spain: Ok, you can have more money and power.


Catalonian nationalism: If you give me more money and power, I will be happy.

Spain: Ok, you can have more money and power.

and again and again and again.

Blogger Chent October 12, 2017 9:18 PM  

President of the Spanish Second Republic, Manuel Azaña, noticed this during the thirties (of 20th century):

"I have never been jingoistic. But I am outraged by these things. And if these people [Catalan nationalists] are going to destroy Spain, I prefer [Generalissimo] Franco [who was fighting a war against Azaña]. We would get along with Franco, or our children will, or whoever will. But these men are unbearable. They would end up making Franco right. And, meanwhile, give them more powers, money and more money"



https://blogs.elconfidencial.com/economia/el-disparate-economico/2017-07-10/negrin-y-azana-acabar-de-raiz-con-los-separatistas_1412170/

Blogger WynnLloyd October 12, 2017 10:57 PM  

I was hoping for war.
I wrote my dissertation on the formation of Catalonia.
I've been there several times. There's no ruder population than the one in Barcelona. Castilians are rude, lazy buffoons, but while the Catalans are less lazy they make up for it in greater rudeness.

Apparently they're mentally handicapped, too. How the hell can they concern themselves at all with Madrid when Hyderabad is rising all around them. Barcelona is not even a European city in certain areas. It's crawling with North African and gypsy pickpockets. The drunk, vomiting English tourists are a breath of fresh air, it's so bad. The worst though are the Indians. Scammers and thieves, the lot of them, and there are so many of them you can get the feeling you are in Jaipur, which is easily the most rotten place I've ever visited. They even walk around in their traditional dress. No acknowledgement of the Catalan host culture. I'm sure you're "tapas" are authentic, Hachi. I'll have your shitty Patatas Bravas even though they make me want to like just looking at them. I'll pass on the giant prawns, though.
A good war might purify that place. Of course not seriously, but it's fun to fantasize even if it's not desirable in reality.

Blogger WynnLloyd October 12, 2017 10:58 PM  

*your.
Long day.

Blogger Thad tuiol October 12, 2017 11:02 PM  

I lost whatever shred of sympathy I had for the Catalan cause when it became clear most of their supporters were antifa/SJW blue hair types and imported muslims. As Vox says, they didn't want REAL independence, certainly not the kind that required them to actually fight and die for, and it was only ever about becoming another welfare spoon fed southern European EU client.

Blogger buscaraons October 12, 2017 11:13 PM  

@54
Lazurus: Yeah but the Quebecois are less insufferable and cause far less problems for the Canadian feds.
This has always been the problem in Spain: the 2 party crony capitalist oligarchs in Madrid have never ever been very smart with the Catalans or Basques. Just territories to treat as conquered places to be perpetually despoiled.

xavier

Blogger Roger G2 October 12, 2017 11:38 PM  

Yes. A pox. Sores of shame.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) October 13, 2017 2:04 AM  

42. Stg58/Animal Mother October 12, 2017 5:36 PM
WILL NOT LET YOU GO


never gonna give you up.





VD
The reason the Catalan bid for independence is going to fail is that they don't want actually want to be independent.



so, is what yer sayin is, Puigdemont is the Bitch McConnell of Spanish politics.


52. newbietrader October 12, 2017 8:45 PM
hahaha told all you idiot "democracy" supporters




we don't have to be Dumbocracy supporters in order to understand that, morally, Catalonia is in the right.

regardless of how stupid or corrupt they might be.

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

deny this and swear allegiance to the Queen.

Anonymous Yann October 13, 2017 2:47 AM  

Yes, only less than 50% of Catalans want this. Catalan secessionists are not that fond of real independence, they are rather anti-Spanish.

The statistics is true. A couple of thoughts about it, though:

1. This percentage is relative to people living in Catalonia, land with a high immigration. Let's take into account that only 2/3 of "catalans by address" are "ethnic catalans" (or less).

2. While that statistics is true, it's outdated, and it doesn't take into account last month events.

3. To that 50%, there were an additional 25% of "soberanists", which means people who wanted to vote, even they were going to vote against independence. The position was "I want Catalonia to be part of Spain, but I want Catalonia to have the right to decide it". It's likely that many of them have changed to the independence field right now.

I would say that right now, almost 100% of ethnic Catalans are either independentist or soberanist.

4. No, Catalan people are not anti-Spain. And this is the key problem with all this: for most of Spanish people, Catalonia wanting to be independent means that they are anti-Spain, that they hate Spain. For some reason, they can't accept that somebody doesn't want to live in the same house as you doesn't means he hates you. People want to live under they own book of rules, and Catalan are living now under the Spanish book of rules.

Quite interestingly, most of Spanish people are pro-less soberany with regard to EU, and the most common argument is "how they could wish to raise barriers, when we are all taking them down. It must be hate". I guess that will change in a few years from now, the moment the EU has enough power to impose their own book of rules, and Spanish people know in their own shoes what means to live under a foreign book of rules.

Blogger Sillon Bono October 13, 2017 4:25 AM  

@61

Can you please explain to us and name the wars in which these territories where conquered by the Spaniards?

How fucking hard is it to understand that what it is known as Catalonia today didn't exist before Spain was formed.

What was Catalonia at the time Spain formed is at best a 3rd of the current territory they occupy now, and it belonged to the kingdom of Aragon.

Barcelona was the capital of the catalonian county in these times.

They were never conquered and there was no fcuking war. Catalonia has never been mistreated as spoils of war.

Anonymous Ken October 13, 2017 6:21 AM  

The libertarians (who think secession is fine) in Catalunia have just done a poll that reflects what one would expect by asking the correct full range of four, not two, questions.

Asked if they prefer secession, more autonomy, less autonomy, or more centralism from Madrid, the answers were evenly divided: 25%, 30%, 25%, 15%, 5% unsure.

Which is why the discussion will go nowhere. Just like Puerto Rico, where the population is similarly divided.

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 13, 2017 5:46 PM  

I have to say: I TOLD YOU SO.

In 2015 I wrote here in an answer to Tom Kratman:

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2015/10/mailvox-catalonian-independence.html#c7466393694176909345

«I think there was ample room to defuse this mess in a civilized manner. I am not entirely convinced it is too late, despite the ugly look of it all. Mostly, because, like I said in replying luagha “the Catalanist leaders are the people least interested in independence. This is a monumental scam gone wrong.” No less than a Spanish minister recently wrote an opinion piece in an internet newspaper openly speaking about Spain getting a new constitution next year. It should have made headlines but, of course, that gets lost among all the Catalanist noise. It may very well be that all the rage after the elections of this December will be about “el proceso constituyente” to draft such document for Spain, Catalonia verily included. Who will be the idiots writing it and what sort of PC crap they’ll dump on it is another matter. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the very Catalanist leaders who shout about independence today had already been involved this past summer in drafting it in cahoots with the present Spanish government.»

Now, in October 2017 the constitutional reform is making headlines.

I TOLD YOU SO!

Anonymous Clay October 14, 2017 1:02 AM  

Yeah I've said a few times. Catalonia reminds me of the Confederacy.

It looks as they have the balls, but not the rail lines, or navy.

Much less, the military.

Anonymous Opus October 14, 2017 4:46 AM  

I was talking face-to-face last night with a Catalan and I thought you all might be interested in what he told me: that, there are a small number of Catalans in France but it would not be the case that that part of France would join Catalan as one state. Further there are speakers of Catalan in not only Majorca but also Sardinia and a part of mainland Italy; they too would remain separate from a new state of Catlunia.

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 14, 2017 8:27 AM  

69. The language spoken in Baleares (Majorca, Minorca, Ibiza and Formentera) was never called Catalan until the 20th century. Another example of fake Catalan history.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 15, 2017 6:05 AM  

Back from some travel. It's nice to see some changes in opinion.

Post a Comment

Rules of the blog
Please do not comment as "Anonymous". Comments by "Anonymous" will be spammed.

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts