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Sunday, October 08, 2017

Skeptical nationalism

John Derbyshire contemplates Catalonia and California:
The great classic Chinese novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms opens with a sentence that any literate Chinese person can quote to you: 話說天下大勢, 分久必合, 合久必分 — “It has been said of all under Heaven that what was long divided must unite, what was long united must divide.”

As well as being a fair summary of four thousand years of Chinese history, that’s not a bad guide to history at large. Nations come together and merge; empires form then disintegrate.

Yes, there are those big historical tides ebbing and flowing. But we can form preferences related to our own time and place. Mine are nationalist, with a seasoning of skepticism.

Nationalism isn’t hard to understand. People want to live among and be governed by other people mostly like themselves, with the same language and shared history, not by foreigners in some distant city who don’t understand them.

It is of course the case that our co-ethnics may be crazy beasts — North Korea‘s a nation; Khmer Rouge Cambodia was a nation — while the foreigners in that distant city might be benign and wise, or at any rate not life-threatening. The Middle East under the Ottoman Empire was not an exemplar of peace and justice, but it doesn’t compare badly with today’s Middle East.

The great British national conservative Enoch Powell, who fifty years ago gave those eloquent warnings about the evils of mass immigration, once said that if Britain were at war he would fight for Britain, even if it was a communist dictatorship.

The Greek poet in Byron’s Don Juan, living under the Ottoman Turks, likewise looked back to the Greek tyrants of antiquity and sighed:

Our masters then

Were still, at least, our countrymen.

I’m basically on the same page with these nationalists, but with reservations. When the Vietnamese army put an end to the Khmer Rouge government by invading Cambodia, most Cambodians hailed them as liberators. Perhaps I would have, too; perhaps even Enoch Powell would have.

So there are qualifications to be made about nationalism, especially small-country nationalism or sub-nationalism. You’re not drawing from a big pool of political talent there. I have mixed occasionally with Scottish and Welsh nationalists; let’s just say I wasn’t impressed.

Sub-nationalism like Catalonia’s is also in contradiction to nationalism proper. Who’s the truer nationalist: the Spanish citizen who would fight and die for Spain, or the Catalan separatist who feels the same way about his province?

Here you’re in the zone of differences that can only finally be decided by force of arms.
Derbyshire comes out for Spain, in the end, in favor of nationalism over sub-nationalism. I would be vastly more inclined to do so if Spain would also abjure the European Union; as usual, binary thinkers can't seem to grasp the observation that neither side is good and both sides are idiots fighting over the right to be directly subservient to the European Commission on behalf of the Catalans.
The sour joke in Britain thirty years ago was that having fought eight hundred years for their independence, the Irish had then sold it for a package of EU agricultural subsidies. That’s not altogether fair. But looking at Ireland today gives you a jaded perspective on Irish nationalism. The seminaries are full of Nigerians [ How Catholicism fell from grace in Ireland, Chicago Tribune, July 92006] the cab drivers are all Polish; and the current Prime Minister, Leo Varadkar, is an open homosexual whose father was an Indian born in Bombay. For this the heroes of 1916 faced the firing squads?
MPAI is one of the sad realities of history. Regardless, Derbyshire's most important idea is here: We can call this alliance the Natintern, the Nationalist International. I’m still waiting for someone to come up with a suitable anthem, to be called of course The Nationale.

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89 Comments:

Blogger Sam Spade October 08, 2017 8:12 AM  

We have to get rid of all Pro EU politicians in every European Country. I hope last weeks events awake and trigger real nationalist sentiment (or instinct) in Spanish people. I think that would be hardly controllable by our traitor governs, and a encouraging change of trend leading to EU exit eventually.

This is from yesterday in Madrid, and the same has happened across Spain last days:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLnNFYfX0AAdc3a.jpg

Anonymous Aeoli Pera October 08, 2017 8:16 AM  

This is a weird confusion. I presume Derbyshire is not a Christian?

Anonymous Aeoli Pera October 08, 2017 8:19 AM  

Maybe he's one of those too smart for his own good types.

Blogger Lovekraft October 08, 2017 8:28 AM  

Remembering another concept from Cerebus the comic is that female nature is one of 'merging', whereas the male resists this, as it subsumes his deeper nature.

Feminism, we all know (even though it's laying low for the moment) is an underlying theme in western nations. The resistance in these separatist movements could be a realization that merging into a monolithic globalist blog goes against nature.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera October 08, 2017 8:35 AM  

All cosmopolitanism, and globalism by extension, is predicated on narcissism. It's not a male-female thing, that's neopaganism and furthermore retarded.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera October 08, 2017 8:44 AM  

I should say regressive, to be more precise. Neopaganism is a regression from Christian epistemology (realism) to Cartesian skepticism (nihilism: everything is made of dreams and trickster demons), culminating in the return of flat-earth cosmology and even the loss of atomic theory.

Blogger xavier October 08, 2017 8:45 AM  

Vox
I think the EU's lukewarm to subtly hostile attitude towards Catalan independence has soured the Catalans. Now there's vilaweb.cat taking a look at EFTA as alternative. Whether better or worse I dunno but definitely better than being lectured by slim shadows like Juenker
xavier

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) October 08, 2017 8:54 AM  

This is a weird confusion. I presume Derbyshire is not a Christian?

I don't think he is

Blogger ant becker October 08, 2017 9:00 AM  

No surrender!

Blogger weka October 08, 2017 9:05 AM  

The left mocronationalists will lose because they will bring immigrants in until they have elected a new people.

The viable nationalism is tribal: one land, one people, one God. This leads to war between tribes.

in Christendom, the ruler of eachntrib bowed at the altar before Christ. This allowed for alliances against the Turk, and regulations on conduct in war.

(An empire can do the same thing, but it better be prepared to bleed).

But the left mocronationalists believe they can survive without tribe or army or empire. That will not end well.

Anonymous Philipp October 08, 2017 9:23 AM  

@7: Xavier

EFTA is a free trade association. It has no aspirations to become a United States of Europe. Much better than the EU.

http://www.efta.int/about-efta/european-free-trade-association

Blogger Chent October 08, 2017 9:27 AM  

Nationalism isn’t hard to understand. People want to live among and be governed by other people mostly like themselves, with the same language and shared history

Does he mean the guys in the images below?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8514/8347428200_9aab411f9f_o.jpg

http://www.alertadigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/moras-sparatas.jpg

http://e02-elmundo.uecdn.es/assets/multimedia/imagenes/2016/04/09/14601950930639.jpg

Do you imagine the guys in the images above going to a demonstration with Viktor Orban?

Catalan "nationalism" has favored the immigration of Muslim people and given them all kind of privileges as long as Muslims say they are nationalists.

Catalonia is the region of Spain with more Muslims. The Catalan government created an office in Morocco to import Muslims.


I would be vastly more inclined to do so if Spain would also abjure the European Union

Granted, the European Union must perish and Spain is not an example of this.

But Catalan nationalism is more pro-European Union than Spanish people and much more than Spanish nationalism. They brag about that, too.

http://www.raco.cat/index.php/Eines/article/viewFile/142499/194054

As always, the shallowness of the analysis shocks me. Only because Catalan "nationalism" has the N-word, it must be similar to any other movement that also has the "nationalist" word.

In fact, Catalan nationalism is SJW, globalist, pro-immigration, pro-Muslim and political correct.

For example, the draft of Catalan constitution is the only constitution in the world that includes gay marriage inside the Constitution http://www.unanovaconstitucio.cat/articulat/

See for example "Nacio Digital", the most important digital newspaper in Catalan. Full of radical feminist women, SJWs and multiculturalist.

Blogger NeoNietzsche: October 08, 2017 9:28 AM  

@8 Derbyshire describes himself as:

a lapsed Anglican ("like falling out of a first-floor window"),

http://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/Religion/page.html

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 08, 2017 9:29 AM  

"Sub-nationalism like Catalonia’s is also in contradiction to nationalism proper. Who’s the truer nationalist: the Spanish citizen who would fight and die for Spain, or the Catalan separatist who feels the same way about his province?

Here you’re in the zone of differences that can only finally be decided by force of arms."


He's wrong on that, there's a perfectly logical divisor. When both sizes of nation are understood along lines of blood, the smaller nation will always be the truer nation, because it is composed of people more self-similar than the large nation.

As far as differences being decided, that always comes down to force, if not necessarily force of arms. It can be political or religious or seductive or economic force, for instance.

Anonymous Avalanche October 08, 2017 9:31 AM  

@12 "Does he mean the guys in the images below?"

Dear God help Spain and Catalonia both! And all the REST of us Euro-derived peoples!!

Blogger LP9 October 08, 2017 9:33 AM  

Catalonia has to break free for once and for all but how will they or anyone truly be Free? It seems impossible with the era humanity exists in.


Urgent report by Ivan; https://darktriadman.com/2017/10/07/brutal-clips-12-deadly-new-order-of-battle-for-the-left/

Blogger Chent October 08, 2017 9:35 AM  

@Avalanche

But these guys are considered "Catalan" by Catalan nationalism, which is extremely pro-Muslim, as long as Muslim speak Catalan and say the are in favor of the independence (which they do: it gives them a lot of privileges)

Don't miss the Catalan woman between Muslim boys in the last image. She seems to have a massive tingle.

Blogger Bodo Staron October 08, 2017 9:45 AM  

1. Catalan will turn Muslim.
2. Will turn into some sort of Caliphate.
3. Total chaos and the beginning of the real Reconquista 2.0.

Blogger tuberman October 08, 2017 10:01 AM  

Whatever puts more pressure on the EU to dissolve faster...I Support.

Blogger Johnny October 08, 2017 10:02 AM  

My analysis is that the natural organization for us humans is tribalism. Tribes consist of families that are members of clans that together make up the tribe. Unless the tribe has a strong ideology that has been sold with success, the smaller affiliations are stronger than the more remote. In a dispute, the individual tribal members will choose family over clan, and clan over tribe.

When the hunter became a farmer he became more sedentary and population densities went up. The combination made tyranny easier and the result was empires where the threat of military force was used to extract tribute that was used to support the military that raised the tribute. It was a sort of grand scale mugger money system.

The whole empire would be stronger and safer for the leadership if there were some common affiliation. Typically this required a common culture that required a common language. And the potentates that were capable would sell the idea that they in were special, perhaps a god, or they represented the will of the population. Thus their victory in battle was the victory for everyone.

The final stage of this is where we are now with nationalism, a concept that requires a population at least somewhat affiliated scattered over a known territory with a government . Nationalism works out reasonably well because it resembles tribalism, what we humans are naturally inclined to. The difference is that tribalism is virtually spontaneous and depends heavily on common association. Nationalism is an ideology that has to be sold to the people.

The downside of this whole multi-culture crap is that it weakens common affiliation, thus makes the country weaker and less law abiding. Social sanctions don't work as well without a common culture, thus law enforce by cops and perhaps a secret police becomes more important and more common.

The benefit to the multi-culture crap is that it creates a population with less ability to implement its common beliefs because it has fewer common beliefs. Thus it tends to empower government at the expense of the popular will.

Blogger Chent October 08, 2017 10:05 AM  

Well, the most important newspaper in Catalonia, La Vanguardia, has been in favor of the secessionist process for the last five years (due to the massive amount of money it has received from the Catalan government)

But now banks and companies are fleeing Catalonia. As a result, La Vanguardia has changed its course:

http://www.lavanguardia.com/opinion/20171008/431878931938/nos-jugamos-catalunya.html

"The two main banks of Catalonia, CaixaBank and Banc Sabadell, have been forced to move their central offices [...] The decision adopted by these banks [...] has been imitated by other very important companies such as Gas Natural and Aguas de Barcelona. Hundreds of middle and small companies are taking the same decision anonymously. We are before a real tsunami with incalculable consequences for the Catalan economy [...]. The Catalan economy is at risk[...] The situation is serious and cannot be minimized [...] There is no "low cost" independence"

Catalan secessionists have been fooling people for the last 30 years, telling them the independence will have no cost and will only bring massive wealth to Catalonia. Now, Catalonia has not proclaimed the independence yet and we see the reality instead of propaganda.

"The respectable opinion of two million people can't destroy a country of 7.5 million people"

But this is democracy, Catalan secessionist style! Even the two million figure has been obtained with a manipulated election with no kind of guarantees.

This guy voted four times. This is democracy!

https://imgur.com/a/YIBNz

In 71 municipalities, there are more "YES" votes than inhabitants. This is democracy!

https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/10/03/catalunya/1507048467_326934.html

Vote in middle of the street without asking for an identity document and ballot boxes full of ballots before arriving at the polling place. Check the videos in this page. There are hillarious! This is democracy!

http://www.larazon.es/espana/urnas-opacas-llenas-de-papeletas-llegan-a-los-colegios-electorales-BM16381303


Blogger Johnny October 08, 2017 10:08 AM  

@12 Chent: In fact, Catalan nationalism is SJW, globalist, pro-immigration, pro-Muslim and political correct.

By my lights the whole multi-culture thing is inherently unsound and only works so long as it is an opposition movement in an otherwise stable society. Let them come to power and the circumstance will be different, and that will produce a different ideology to justify the new circumstance.

An easy example of the above is the USSR. Originally the communists were commune-ists, believed in free love, went about disheveled to show contempt for the well dressed establishment, and were all in favor of personal freedoms. Once they came to power, the communists became the rigid, authoritarian , murderous tyranny that ran the USSR.

Blogger Chent October 08, 2017 10:09 AM  

@Bodo Staron.

Check this flag used in a recent demonstration for the independence of Catalonia.

https://www.actuall.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/bandera-catalana-con-la-media-luna-isl%C3%A1mica.jpg

Granted, Sweden will be the first Muslim country in Europe, but Catalonia may be the second one.

Blogger James October 08, 2017 10:12 AM  

"Derbyshire comes out for Spain, in the end, in favor of nationalism over sub-nationalism. I would be vastly more inclined to do so if Spain would also abjure the European Union"
I'm against the EU because it is empirically imperialist, and I'm a Nationalist, and sometimes I can be persuaded to be a Subnationalist. At this point any enemy of the EU is my friend, and any friend of the EU is my enemy. Same goes for the UN.

Blogger Chent October 08, 2017 10:15 AM  

Check the example of secessionist manipulation. In English

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RMfZM2dJSvc/WdeiKlEdUpI/AAAAAAAAAaM/PU8dDo_HgFMAvrBGC_p5GogZthk7QT1yACK4BGAYYCw/s1600/DLICov3WkAAV6yM.jpg

The French newspaper "Le Monde" explains how social network images about the Catalan "referendum"/joke are manipulated.

http://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2017/10/02/violences-policieres-en-catalogne-attention-aux-images-trompeuses_5194905_4355770.html

Catalan congressman Lluis Llach qualifies people against Catalan independence as "food of vultures" (carrion).

http://politica.e-noticies.es/llach-compara-a-los-manifestantes-de-este-domingo-con-carrona-112974.html

Anonymous Philipp October 08, 2017 10:16 AM  

An independent Catalonia would not be part of the EU anymore. The managers of these big banks and companies consider that a bad thing and thus are moving their headquarters to other parts of Spain.

Blogger VD October 08, 2017 10:16 AM  

But this is democracy, Catalan secessionist style! Even the two million figure has been obtained with a manipulated election with no kind of guarantees. This guy voted four times. This is democracy!

Why are you whining and crying about how the Catalans ran their referendum? Spain had the chance to help them conduct it honestly. Spain chose not to do so, and thereby gave up its opportunity to ensure a legitimate vote. What else did you expect?

Catalan "nationalism" has favored the immigration of Muslim people and given them all kind of privileges as long as Muslims say they are nationalists. Catalonia is the region of Spain with more Muslims. The Catalan government created an office in Morocco to import Muslims.

That happened under Spanish rule. Why do you think continued Spanish rule will resolve that problem in any way? And why would you want a Muslim-populated Catalonia to be part of Spain anyhow?

Your position is remarkably incoherent.

Blogger seeingsights October 08, 2017 10:52 AM  

I would think that the right-of-center parties would be glad if a region that is left-of-center secedes. The percentage representation of right-of-center parties in the Westminster Parliament, the Parliament in Canada, and the Cortes Generales would increase.

In a similar way, some of us would like to see California secede. Democrats would lose around 10 percent of the Electoral College and in the House of Representatives.

Yet conservatives in the UK, Canada, and Spain don't want secession. I don't understand.

Anonymous Godfrey October 08, 2017 11:10 AM  

Anyone here yet figure out exactly what Conservatives are conserving? It seems to me to simply be the prior day's Leftist political gain? It seems Conservatives always, and I mean ALWAYS, are on defense. They're constantly on the retreat.

Anonymous BBGKB October 08, 2017 11:13 AM  

People want to live among and be governed by other people mostly like themselves

SACRAMENTO — Ninety percent of California sex offenders will no longer be required to register with law enforcement for life under a bill that Gov. Jerry Brown signed Friday"
http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/California-law-sex-offenders-Jerry-Brown-12259564.php

some of us would like to see California secede. Democrats would lose around 10 percent of the Electoral College

At least 20 of CA's electoral votes come from counting illegals during the census

Anonymous kfg October 08, 2017 11:19 AM  

"Derbyshire comes out for Spain, in the end . . ."

Then he doesn't understand Spain. It is a state, but it has never been a nation. Just ask the Portugeuese, who were once part of Spain.

https://infogalactic.com/info/Portuguese_Restoration_War

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 08, 2017 11:23 AM  

I find interesting that "sub-nationalism" concept. It is an elegant name for the centrifugal trends we have been seen recently.

The evil things the Catalan rebels have been doing in the last years (like wholesale import of Moors) are a consequence of they enjoyed the same kind of hyperlegitimacy, and self-entitlement, than Liberals in US universities, and culture. I think this is one of the main reasons VD's books about fighting SJW attracted the attention of Spaniards tired of withstanding that hyperlegitimacy.

Finally, on the selection of who to fight, if the EU descending from the top, or Catalan rebellion from down under, there is strong evidence about the Catalan rebellion being the most immediate danger, both by being near in time and in space, and because of its quite Totalitarian outlook.

EU may result to be Totalitarian, but they have not advanced so much in that direction as the Catalan rebels. See this pic as example, only the background is original, all the other pics are real imaginery.

However, the real referendum was done in Thursday and Friday, with Catalans taking their savings out of Catalonia, to the rest of Spain, and major corporations taking their headquarters also to other parts of Spain. Best proof of the confidence a hypothetical República Catalana deserves among its citizens. Almost like the current Venezuela or Zimbabwe.

Blogger Nate October 08, 2017 11:25 AM  

Ahh.. fascinating... So a people's right to self determined by how much they impress the Derb.

One wonders what he thinks of Mugabe.

Blogger Arthur Isaac October 08, 2017 11:40 AM  

The Central banks are going to collapse. That will be the end of German and American Empire.

Blogger Nate October 08, 2017 11:44 AM  

I mean in the same column where he points out that his hero's would rather be governed by incompetent coubtrymen.. he argues that sub-nationalism is wrong because of potentially incompetent leaders.

Blogger Nate October 08, 2017 11:46 AM  

Also.. ukraine leaving the USSR.. is that sub-nationalism? If not.. then why is California?

Blogger Sillon Bono October 08, 2017 12:10 PM  

https://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/144512471

Behold, the other catalonians, observe how there are no muzzies among them.

Blogger rcocean October 08, 2017 12:28 PM  

I'm all in favor of "Sub-nationalism", especially for the UK and the USA. Think of how better the UK was, once it got rid of the Irish. Think of how better England would be if they got rid of the Scots. Same with the USA. If we could somehow convince New England to leave and Join Canada, and get California to be its own country, we'd have a chance to correct some of our problems.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 08, 2017 12:35 PM  

@Chent,
It must really gall that Catalans brought in Muslims in preference to Spaniards.

Blogger Chent October 08, 2017 12:36 PM  

Breaking news. Today there has been a massive demonstration in Catalonia against independence. The numbers are estimated from 350,000 to one million.

https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/cataluna/2017-10-08/independencia-cataluna-manifestacion-barcelona_1457478/

Secessionists are only two million max (in total, not in a demonstration), less than 50% of the electorate, but they always speak as if they were the only Catalans.

Non-secessionists don't often express themselves publicly but only in the ballot box (the way Trump's followers do). Today all those who have been silenced have expressed themselves publicly.

Blogger S1AL October 08, 2017 12:37 PM  

Heh. Lot of people spouting off in here about how great sub-national forms are.

History disagrees.

Blogger Chent October 08, 2017 12:41 PM  

@Chent,
It must really gall that Catalans brought in Muslims in preference to Spaniards.

No, we know how secessionists are (not all Catalan, as I said). Their hate to Spaniards is so irrational that they prefer Muslims.

Every cloud has a silver lining. If secessionists manage to obtain independence, lots of Muslims will be out of Spain. When Catalonia becomes a Islamic country and Catalan people are opressed by Muslims, I will laugh my ass off.

Blogger Jew613 October 08, 2017 12:45 PM  

There is a very good 6 part documentary on YouTube about the Spanish Civil War, though It does have a leftist bias. I think it's instructive to see how far the Spanish will go when pushed hard enough.

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81RhewkQbOk

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YhBDJvbl4k

Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibgvBxGiqp0

Part 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us2aGyD9H6Y

Part 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN5TbqzxQBg

Part 6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qaxd3pU_UQI

Blogger James October 08, 2017 12:45 PM  

"Ahh.. fascinating... So a people's right to self determined by how much they impress the Derb"

Self determination is not an automatic right. Since it occurs in the context of geo-politics, it all depends on whether anybody else in the world recognizes your "right" to self determination. For example, I support Kurdish independence, but, I'm not such a stupid idiot that I imagine that the Kurds will get it unless more people in the world, especially those directly involved, are willing to acquiesce to it. The Kurds will not get to live in an independent Kurdistan by whining and moaning and griping and sniveling and mewling about their right to it.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd October 08, 2017 12:50 PM  

Chent wrote:As always, the shallowness of the analysis shocks me. Only because Catalan "nationalism" has the N-word, it must be similar to any other movement that also has the "nationalist" word.

There are no good guys in that squabble. I support nationalism and nationalists. Thus, I want to see Catalia independent, even though the Catalian nationalists are insane SJW mohammedan-loving communists.

It's not our circus, not our monkeys and I really don't care what they do after independence.

Blogger LP9 October 08, 2017 12:56 PM  

Oh no, I forgot the Islamic presence, natives have leave their own homes to run from the EU, their own country and Islam.

Please Lord help them, help us. It is dire...

OT: Today at oglebeyfest Wheeling WV we celebrate our art, fun and POTUS winning just 11 months ago in undeserved safety w/ joy when others are suffering and for that our group remains in prayer.

I want it noted that IG News scooped Drudge RE: this weekend storm, Drudge is crisis central news but but IG News is smarter news.

Anonymous Jeff October 08, 2017 12:57 PM  

Folks in southern USA appreciate the "sub-nationalism" concept, I'm sure.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 08, 2017 1:00 PM  

Chent wrote:No, we know how secessionists are (not all Catalan, as I said). Their hate to Spaniards is so irrational that they prefer Muslims.
"They hate us, and we hate them, but por Dios, we will NEVER let them leave. How dare they claim we are not the same nation! They are ours and we will control them and extract money from them por SIEMPRE!!!!!"

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 08, 2017 1:04 PM  

@13 Chent
Does he mean the guys in the images below?

Derbyshire has an email address. Why not ask him?

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 08, 2017 1:07 PM  

Keep trying, jobless ignoramus. However, you are now in the deeply pathetic range.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 08, 2017 1:12 PM  

NobodyExpects wrote:Keep trying, jobless ignoramus. However, you are now in the deeply pathetic range.
Still haven't come up with an argument? Let us know when you do. We'd love to hear it.

BTW, are you Chent's sock puppet? Seems like it. Tone is the same, you always show up together. Granted, you come across as more intelligent, but that's not a high barricade to leap over.

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 08, 2017 2:43 PM  

This is a weird confusion. I presume Derbyshire is not a Christian?

No, he's not. There are very few Christians in the UK, unless one counts the invading dindus (who are really just another type of Churchian who are tolerated by SJWs because they're doing the assigned task of destroying the idée fixe of SJW animus: whites and the culture they built). There are actually more Muslims in the UK than Christians by far. Derb is unusual in that he's not a leftist SJW and might even be alt-Right in many ways. There are non-Christians in the alt-Right, but they seem to be more common in western Europe than in North America or (maybe) Eastern Europe. This will likely change over time unless there is a serious attempt to take back the church in North America.

Meanwhile the Judeo-Christ worshipping Churchians in Kwa-Bananaland continue to not only import rapefugees by the hundreds of thousands but they're always virtue-signaling by sending missionaries over to help the African Churchians in activities like genociding the remaining whites in South Africa. This is also what the government-operated "churches" in Western Europe are up to, so it's not very surprising that one encounters considerable hostility towards Christianity from Euro-nationalists.

Anonymous FP October 08, 2017 2:52 PM  

@37

That 4chan thread has some amusing pictures. Pro independence types putting candles up their backsides for art and revolution. So edgy.

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 08, 2017 2:55 PM  

a lapsed Anglican ("like falling out of a first-floor window")

Derb's comment is pretty funny in light of his defenestration from NRO over his penning "the talk" to his offspring on how to avoid the groid.

Blogger Dexter October 08, 2017 3:05 PM  

"small-country nationalism or sub-nationalism. You’re not drawing from a big pool of political talent there. I have mixed occasionally with Scottish and Welsh nationalists; let’s just say I wasn’t impressed."

Uh huh. What has the"big talent pool" of leadership in the large nation of the USA given us for the past 30 years? Treacherous, incompetent dogshit.

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 08, 2017 3:09 PM  

Also.. ukraine leaving the USSR.

Ukraine never left the USSR except when the Nazi's occupied it (the only place Nazis were greeted as liberators). Ukraine was never really an independent country before then. It's been considered part of Russia since 988, though large segments were part of other entities at one time or another (Mongol Empire, Poland-Lithuania, etc.) The language is much closer to Russian than Polish is and uses the same Cyrillic alphabet (with some added letters). It would be lot more viable as an independent country than Catalonia were it not owned and controlled by the (((usual suspects))) who are looting away as they work with (((Soros))), the EUSSR and the depraved regime in Sodom-on-Potomac to get a war started with Russia there.

Blogger kurt9 October 08, 2017 3:11 PM  

Derbyshire is not a Christian, but is sympathetic to Christian culture. Derbyshire is one of the first "mainstream" (he used to write for National Review) to embrace the reality of human biodiversity, and had several of his writings spiked by NRO over this issue. Derbyshire is a "northernist" in that he believes that the northern cultures (Europe, Russia, East Asian) are of higher intelligence, greater executive function, and are thus more productive accomplishment oriented cultures as compared to the south. He calls northern people "polar" people as to differentiate them from the "Sun" people. As a northernist, he believe that the West, Russia, and the East Asian countries of China, Korea, and Japan should stop feuding with each other and, instead, seek common cause with each other to protect our cultures based on productive accomplishment from the immigration onslaught of the sun people.

This is a world-view that I find entirely rational and one that I identify with personally.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 08, 2017 3:11 PM  

The relative intelligence level between Chent and me is not something I lose sleep about.

Blogger kurt9 October 08, 2017 3:13 PM  

Northernism can be considered a more rational version of alt-right in that it is based on the personality traits that underlie productive accomplishment rather than mere ethnic identity alone.

Blogger kurt9 October 08, 2017 3:18 PM  

In any meaningful context, race is really a proxy for the personality traits of cognitive ability and executive function.

Anonymous Martel October 08, 2017 3:20 PM  

Given the rate at which the Catalans have been importing Muslims I expect Catalonian independence would simply result in a small caliphate in Europe within a couple of generations.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 08, 2017 3:50 PM  

Martel wrote:Given the rate at which the Catalans have been importing Muslims...
What on Earth makes you think that once they can keep out the Spaniards, they would continue to welcome North Africans?

Blogger kurt9 October 08, 2017 3:56 PM  

The Catalonians have allowed a large number of Muslim immigrants in. By large number I mean relative to their total population. I have no idea why.

Anonymous Martel October 08, 2017 4:03 PM  

I could be mistaken, but my understanding is that the Catalans favor even more open immigration policy than the Spaniards do. Am I incorrect in this?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 08, 2017 4:09 PM  

The idea is that the Spanish were diluting the voting power of the ethnic Catalans. By welcoming North Africans, they were importing a class of voters that would remain loyal to them and counter the voting power of the Spaniards.

Anonymous CV October 08, 2017 5:33 PM  

@51 "There are actually more Muslims in the UK than Christians by far."

That is blatantly not true.

Blogger Nate October 08, 2017 6:02 PM  

" Ukraine was never really an independent country before then"

So what?

Again.. what does that matter? Your argument is... "its been considered russia since 980.

Great. So if the EU was allowed to go on for another 10 centuries England would lose the right to be England?

Because Time?

People have the right to define themselves.

Any time they want.

Anonymous normally a lurker October 08, 2017 6:07 PM  

So riddle me this: If Catalonia is such a terrible rat holefilled with Muslim loving SJW commies, why aren't Spaniards glad they want to leave ASAP?

Blogger S1AL October 08, 2017 6:18 PM  

"People have the right to define themselves.

Any time they want."

Didn't realize you were getting an operation.

Blogger Galahad78 October 08, 2017 6:27 PM  

@Chent and NobodyExpects

I've been mulling about the comments here, between you and some others, and, on the other side, our appreciated host and some others, and we've been talking about different things the whole time.

The point VD has been making in the several previous posts is that Spain and EU are not as democratic as they claim to be. With that, I could agree. As I've told my separatist friends several times, if Puigdemont would say that the future Catalonian Republic would not ask to be in EU and would not import any more Muslim freeloaders, I would be the first one with a YES ballot in my hands. Alas, that's not going to be.

Our point, what we have been trying to explain, hard, is that Catalonian separatists are even less democratic than current Spain. However, this is completely irrelevant to VD and other's points.

It is our worry, yes, but not theirs. Our circus, our monkeys. They don't care about that. Hardly to blame, I'd do the same. We care, obviously, about the aftermath: it is our future, and our children's. For them it just will be another intellectual exercise.

That's why we are not going to understand each other. And that's why I find a waste of energy trying to convince our appreciated guiris about something they do not care about.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 08, 2017 6:58 PM  

@Galahad78: You saw I started posting in Andalusian. That was when I stopped caring about what their little, elevated, stratospheric minds could think, but still caring about our people posting here.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 08, 2017 7:00 PM  

An independent Catalonia would go in short time to be a Totalitarian hellhole like Venezuela, however. That would affect my monkeys, definitively.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 08, 2017 7:20 PM  

@70 NobodyExpects
@Galahad78: You saw I started posting in Andalusian.

Special snowflake. So brave.

Anonymous Luke October 08, 2017 7:26 PM  

65. CV October 08, 2017 5:33 PM
@51 "There are actually more Muslims in the UK than Christians by far."

"That is blatantly not true."

66. Nate

It is a lot more plausible if you go by weekly worship attendance. I thought I'd heard that the mosques in the U.K. get more business than do the churches there now.

Anonymous Clouseau October 08, 2017 7:37 PM  

For us noobs, what does MPAI stand for? Thanks.

Blogger Nate October 08, 2017 7:57 PM  

"Didn't realize you were getting an operation."

cute.

Groups. Not individuals. You don't belong to the group that you claim. You belong to the group that claims you.

Blogger S1AL October 08, 2017 7:59 PM  

"Groups. Not individuals. You don't belong to the group that you claim. You belong to the group that claims you."

So... the Spanish claim that Catalanians, yeah?

Blogger Nate October 08, 2017 8:02 PM  

I can claim to be a black nationalist for example. But if I show up at a black nationalist meeting... i will learn quickly that I am not in fact a black nationalist.

Anonymous Bad Hemingway Contest October 08, 2017 8:04 PM  

@74 Clouseau
For us noobs, what does MPAI stand for?

Do not ask what the MPAI stands for, it stands for you.

Blogger Nate October 08, 2017 8:04 PM  

"So... the Spanish claim that Catalanians, yeah?"

The world isn't binary sweetie. That's the magic dirt theory. America can claim mexicans are american... but that doesn't make them american.


Blogger Nate October 08, 2017 8:05 PM  

Most People Are Idiots.




Blogger Nate October 08, 2017 8:07 PM  

If catalanians wanted to be Spaniards... then Spain could choose to accept them or not.

But the Catalanians appear to not want to be Spaniards. (or maybe they just want EU subsidies of their own I don't know) Thus Spain's opinion is not relevant.

Blogger xavier October 08, 2017 8:14 PM  

Phillip
Thanks . Then Catalans should seriously look into it

xavier

Blogger S1AL October 08, 2017 8:16 PM  

"Groups. Not individuals. You don't belong to the group that you claim. You belong to the group that claims you."

"America can claim mexicans are american... but that doesn't make them american."

These are flatly contradictory statements. The contradiction explains why everyone is making an absolute hash of the political theory here.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) October 08, 2017 9:42 PM  

Secession now, secession tomorrow, secession forever

Blogger Anthony October 08, 2017 10:02 PM  

L'Nationale:

This land is your land, that land is my land.
There is a border, it keeps us happy,
By keeping you folks apart from my folks
And we can both live separate and free.

Blogger Chent October 09, 2017 9:33 AM  

Breitbart: Huge crowds rally against Catalan secession

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/10/08/pics-huge-crowds-rally-catalan-secession/

Blogger Nate October 09, 2017 8:35 PM  

They only contradictory to a binary thinker

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 10, 2017 4:17 PM  

No CatExit.

Sorry, Libbies.

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