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Sunday, October 01, 2017

What losing the moral level looks like

Spain is losing the moral level of war in Catalonia. Badly. The Spanish can cry "the vote is illegal" all they like, but the Spanish government can no longer pretend to have democratic legitimacy in Catalonia or to be anything but an imperialist state governing an unwilling people by force. The vote is no longer even necessary at this point; world opinion is actively turning against Spain. Had Spain encouraged the vote and offered incentives for a No vote, it might well have won. But by fighting against it and resorting to violence - even well-restrained violence of the sort it has utilized thus far - it has significantly increased the likelihood that Catalans will vote for independence.

AP BREAKING: Catalonia referendum: Spanish police fire rubber projectiles at protesters outside Barcelona voting center.

The Catalan regional government may well be a collection of economically ignorant fools. Democracy and rule by the will of the people may well be an illusion. But people have the right to be fools and billions of people believe in the idea that the reason their governments are legitimate is due to their foundation of democracy. A government punctures that illusion at its own risk. Remember, "the law" does not actually exist in any material sense. It is merely a collective agreement, which ceases to exist when a sufficient number of people unilaterally withdraw from it.

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348 Comments:

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Anonymous Rocklea October 01, 2017 5:46 AM  

Nothing says freedom like riot police uniforms. Though I think they should switch out the Vader look for Stormtrooper.

Blogger Al From Bay Shore October 01, 2017 5:53 AM  

This stuff makes me think about Myanmar. There are people taking matters into their own hands in defiance of long held public (government) policies. Brush fires are emerging around the world.

Anonymous Looking Glass October 01, 2017 5:59 AM  

I'm having trouble figuring out if this is incompetence, intentional desire to kill Spain as a Nation-State or just brutishness. Or maybe all 3, given all of the factions involved. (That we know about.)

Anonymous Philipp October 01, 2017 6:03 AM  

The Spanish government and police have obviously never heard of Bill Lind, 4th generation warfare and the moral level of war.

If the Spanish government had let the referendum go ahead, pointed out the consequences of independence and campaigned for a No, it most likely would have won, and won handsomely.

Now there are photos and video clips of police kicking, pushing and throwing around voters, and bleeding voters.

Great win to lose the public opinion.

Anonymous Rocklea October 01, 2017 6:13 AM  

Someone could make a lot of money if they could come up with a temporary EMP like device that actually worked and could guarantee zero footage zones.

Pictures worth a thousand words.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 6:13 AM  

Was legal, and democratic, the 2014 Crimean referendum?

Was legal, and democratic, the 1938 Austrian referendum on Anschluss?

Are you all aware of the very serious lack of democratic guarantees in this referendum? For starters: no census, no ID needed, no Electoral Commission. There are Miss World contests with more democratic credentials.

This is not a referendum, this is performance art aimed to have apparently innocent old ladies blooded on social media. Even if one appears on video as having fallen by some stairs, or if other is, also in video, trying to assault a policeman.

Sorry, but this shallow, black-and-white view is sickening.

Blogger Sam Spade October 01, 2017 6:17 AM  

Good analysis form Vox and your comments focusing the govern strategic incompetence.

As I said in other post, our government should have allowed the voting and became a concern troll, exposing the flaws and contradictions of the separatists and the uncertain future waiting for independent Catalonia.

Also showing some support and love for all catalonians, including 50% don't wanting the independence.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 6:19 AM  

This is the little old lady that fell in stairs.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLC2jYaXkAEIxRB.jpg

Blogger Furthest Right October 01, 2017 6:20 AM  

Successfully voting to secede is one thing.

Actually seceding and staying independent is another entirely.

Just ask anyone from Dixie.

Anonymous torpedo October 01, 2017 6:22 AM  

Spain is not trying to stop Catalonians from voting.

Catalonians are stopping Spaniards from voting.

Theyre atempting to organize a limited vote where only some people are allowed to vote.

Limited democracy is not democracy.

If Catalonians can ban Spaniards from voting in Catalonia, then Spaniards can ban Catalonians from voting in Spain.

If Catalonians can force catalonian Spaniards to live in an independent Catalonia and pay taxes to Bercelona instead of Madrid, Spaniards can force Catalnians to live in Spain and pay taxes to Madrid instead of Barcelona.

Blogger Sam Spade October 01, 2017 6:22 AM  

@6 "This is not a referendum, this is performance art aimed to have apparently innocent old ladies blooded on social media. Even if one appears on video as having fallen by some stairs, or if other is, also in video, trying to assault a policeman."

You are right, but it doesn't matter anymore. A smart leader has to accept reality and focus the strategy on current situation and battle with public opinion.

This should have been put out easily and peacefully. But Rajoy and PP are incompetents or malicious.

Anonymous Steve October 01, 2017 6:23 AM  

These pictures are terrible for Spain. They've done everything the Catalan separatists could have possibly hoped for, especially the half-hearted show of force.

If you're going to crack down on the populace, you need the will to be as brutal as the USSR was in 1956 or Britain wasn't in facing Gandhi. Simply LARPing as a police state is the worst of both worlds - you earn the people's hate but not their fear.

Dunno why they didn't learn from what the UK did prior to the Scottish and Brexit referenda: threatening people doesn't work. It absolutely failed to keep Britain in the EU, and nearly cost us the Union of Parliaments. Turns out people don't like being strong-armed or talked down to. Who knew?

Presenting a positive vision and love bombing the voters with respected figures talking to them with affection about shared values works. (David Bowie did more to save the Union than the idiotic Project Fear) Uniting them against a common hated enemy works. Ridiculing the opposing force's leaders (but not their supporters) works.

Everything the Spanish authorities have done is the exact opposite of what works.

Spain is done here, there's no way they can walk this back.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 6:24 AM  

@Sam Spade: being a concern troll would have worked for people outside Spain. Not for people in Catalonia. They would have declared victory, and dismiss any concerns as, you bet, trolling attempts. After all, they managed to flout for years judgements, even from international courts, about the use of mother tongues in education.

And, frankly, seems the Spanish people, non-secessionist Catalans included, have finally arrived to the "enough is enough" stage.

Anonymous Looking Glass October 01, 2017 6:30 AM  

@5 Rocklea

EMP rounds exist already and are deployed in a few battlespaces already. Though they seem to have concussive charges with them, so it isn't just something you kick-on.


@6 NobodyExpects_

The Spanish Government is playing along to make themselves look like thugs. There's list of possible reasons why, and none of them bode well for the future.

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 6:32 AM  

This is the little old lady that fell in stairs.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLC2jYaXkAEIxRB.jpg


This is the video from which that picture was taken. It happened in a election point. She was attacked by a Spanish policeman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TLH37HzeCI

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 6:32 AM  

@Sam Spade (again, sorry) Agree with your opinion on Rajoy and the current PP. Rajoy is very cunning, and he worries only about Rajoy. He cleared his party of everyone that could cast a shadow over him, and gave up the Culture War.

@Steve Initially, the regional police force (Mossos d'Esquadra) was tasked with impeding the access to the poll places, thus preventing the vote in the most harmless way. But their political leadership forestalled them in a very weasely way. So the situation degraded and some use of force is necessary. Still, there are no deads.

Of course, the national government could have prevented all of this by suspending the autonomy and jailing the responsible politicians, but the media storm could have been worse than the current one.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 6:33 AM  

@Yann: Video of the attack, or it did not happen.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 6:36 AM  

Feisty old lady

https://twitter.com/AltoyClaro1/status/914386208574275584/video/1

Anonymous Rocklea October 01, 2017 6:38 AM  

"Are you all aware of the very serious lack of democratic guarantees in this referendum? For starters: no census, no ID needed, no Electoral Commission. There are Miss World contests with more democratic credentials.

This is not a referendum, this is performance art aimed to have apparently innocent old ladies blooded on social media. Even if one appears on video as having fallen by some stairs, or if other is, also in video, trying to assault a policeman."

Then why not have not riot police not attending the non-referendum? Better optics.

Anonymous Ages October 01, 2017 6:42 AM  

Catalonians are stopping Spaniards from voting.

The British parliament didn’t get a vote for our independence. The wolves don’t get to vote whether the sheep get eaten. And don’t punt to “it’s illegal.” The law is hardly a measure of morality.

It’s special pleading to only approve of independence movements that we like or are successful. Separation must be a recognized right of any sufficiently recognizable group of people. Whether it’s in their interests or not, that is for them to decide. Not their overlords, and certainly not foreigners.

Blogger Lazarus October 01, 2017 6:45 AM  

Spain is not falling apart because the Cats want out, the Cats want out because Spain is falling apart.

Due to political shifts in Germany, Spain will not be bailed out again.

The Cats may be rats deserting a sinking ship, but the more important thing to note is that the ship is sinking.


http://www.atimes.com/article/independence-catalonia-rational-course-action/

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 6:45 AM  

And another video about how Spanish Police treats citizens from Catalonia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD8UX74flzU

And another video, this one about how in Spanish cities celebrated the squads of Police going to Catalonia. People in Spanish cities screaming "¡A por ellos!", which means "Go for them! go for them!!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA1Sw-szU6w

When you see people from Spain encouraging squads of Police to beat Catalan people, when you see them happy, you know it's a different nation.

(And by the way, the same rule can be applied to other countries)

Anonymous Ages October 01, 2017 6:45 AM  

Everything the Spanish authorities have done is the exact opposite of what works.

True. They are taking a page from the failure of Kiev (re Novorossiya) rather than the success of London (re Scotland).

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 6:46 AM  

@Rocklea: for the same reason there is this blog entry.

Any result of anything that vaguely resembles a referendum would be accepted as Word of God (according to the old Ecclesiastical Latin aforism, "Vox Populi, Vox Dei"). So, it is imperative that the result of this pantomime is as unbelievable as it could be.

Otherwise, the future history of Spain is going to be ghastly.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 6:51 AM  

@Ages: Well, this time there is no US Dept. of State conspiring to secede Catalonia, and the Russians could only intervene through tools like Assange or Snowden.

@Yann, still no video of the big, bad policeman throwing an innocent little old lady by a flight of stairs?

You should also put that video where some "citizens of Catalonia" chants for that Terra Lliure terrorist gang.

Anonymous Looking Glass October 01, 2017 6:52 AM  

@24 NobodyExpects_

It's hindsight now, but I think the more clear way to do something like this in the future is to force them to run the cleanest election in human history. It's "non-binding", but you expect International Observers from the world over. Most rigorous standards in history!

Then you setup a media campaign to split the leaders from the populace, along with using your Intelligence Services to make sure the Pro-Independence side makes an utter mess of things.

Machiavellian to the core, but you'll exhaust the pro-independence forces and pretty much assure they locals don't vote that way. Once the disaster plays out, you've successfully killed the movement and made them look like fools.

Blogger YIH October 01, 2017 6:54 AM  

KEK: https://dailystormer.cat/

Anonymous Rocklea October 01, 2017 6:58 AM  

NobodyExpects_, is Spain stronger with the Catalans who wish to speak their own language and have their own country? Actually, I guess I'm being rhetorical. States are always stronger when people are divided. Until they're not.

Anonymous karsten October 01, 2017 7:03 AM  

Was legal, and democratic, the 1938 Austrian referendum on Anschluss?

Yes, as a matter of fact, it was.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 7:09 AM  

@Looking Glass: There was a regional election, with full democratic guarantees, in Catalonia about two years ago. Secessionists presented that as a "plebiscite", in the sense that if the parties that were for separation were to get more votes than the "unionist" ones, there should be an unilateral declaration of independence.

Well, the secessionists did not get more votes.

@Rocklea, as I wrote to Looking Glass, Separatism had no popular vote majority two years ago. Moreover, the richer parts of Catalonia are the ones where Separatism is less popular, despite that 40-year long campaign to indoctrinate people by part of the disloyal Catalan regional government.

@YIH: Well, when the fake right supports one side, and that is the same side Antifa supports, smart people should know what side should they choose. :D

Anonymous Ages October 01, 2017 7:10 AM  

After all of this violence, the Catalan government has every right to ratify a Declaration of Independence and forget the voting. It is self-evident that Spain intends to “reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right,” so “it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 7:14 AM  

Another video. Not taken in Palestine during an intifada, but this morning in Catalonia. Seems someone thought his kid would look good in video with some blood added, but Spanish Police looks to be composed not only of jack-booted thugs.

https://twitter.com/zoidoJI/status/914425401379901440

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 7:18 AM  

@Ages: you should restrain of smoking some recreative substances. They are bad for the brain, you know. There is no intent, nor attempt by the Spanish Government to impose Despotism in Catalonia. Some Separatist factions would like to see a Venezuela-like regime here, however.

Do you remember that thing about unlimited tolerance being the death of tolerance?

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 7:18 AM  

@Ages

After all of this violence, the Catalan government has every right to ratify a Declaration of Independence and forget the voting

Indeed, that's the debate on the table in Catalonia right now. It's called the "DUI" (Unilateral Declaration of Independence) and I would say, the probability of it happening are 50/50.

Blogger AdognamedOp October 01, 2017 7:19 AM  

World opinion doesn't even know this is happening. PR hurricane relief and the kneel challenge is top menu right now.
I'd love to see my Spanish bretheren ignite the fuse that spreads independence through Europe. But, most likely we're gonna have to sit it out another round.
No one said it would be easy.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 7:22 AM  

@Yann: How do you feel having self-portrayed Nazis supporting you?

dailystormer.cat, LOL

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 7:25 AM  

All very democratic

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/914450588494123008

Anonymous Steve October 01, 2017 7:31 AM  

I expect the Cats to declare UDI next week, unless by some mischance they lose their own referendum/performance art.

Spain will do nothing of any value to stop them, since Spain can't muster the will to defend its own borders from migrating African parasites. NB - roughing up a couple of dozen protestors doesn't add any value.

The EU will decide Catalonia's fate, which is a rotten position for Catalonia to be in, but democracy sometimes means getting what you deserve, good and hard.

Anonymous Steveo October 01, 2017 7:47 AM  

The wealthiest live under the skirt of the law, the people under its boot.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar October 01, 2017 7:50 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar October 01, 2017 7:51 AM  

This is the quintessential post-modern, millenial revolution, where people organize to DESTROY a nation-state and a regional government unilaterally declares the Constitution (from which their power derives) void in the region they govern...

...and they expect, they incredibly and stupefyingly expect the State to not react and to allow its destruction without the use of force.

Of course, the Catalan nationalists are managing propaganda masterfully; the referendum is just pure and simple propagandistic frosting on their will to destroy the Spanish nation-state unilaterally by by-passing every existing Law, including the very core of the Spanish Constitution.

To expect the Spanish State to tolerate this, and to think that France, Italy or Germany would act otherwise, is to be absolutely lost.

Blogger Sam Spade October 01, 2017 7:55 AM  

@ages:you don't know what you are talking about or your intentions are to missinformed and confuse.

Anonymous Philipp October 01, 2017 8:00 AM  

@35: AdognamedOP

Do you really think all people in the world ("world opinion") cares about the kneeling of NFL players? What you wrote might be true for the U.S but in the rest of the world the events in Catalonia/Spain will get far more attention than the NFL.

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 8:01 AM  

frosting on their will to destroy the Spanish nation-state unilaterally

There's no such a thing as Spanish nation-state. There's a Spain-nation entity, mainly center and south of the country, and there's Spain-state, which includes additional nations as Catalonia or Basque Country.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar October 01, 2017 8:04 AM  

Yann

Spain as a nation is a totality composed of many regions, such as Castille, Catalonia, the Basque Country, Andalusia, Asturias, etc.

Catalonia is not an entity separate from Spain, but a part of Spain. Separatists in the beginning of the XXth century recognized this when they said they wanted to separate from Castille. They never denied that the concept of Spain included them, even though they were opposed to it.

The concept of Spain as an entity apart from Catalonia is a recent invention of Catalan nationalism and absolutely anti-historical.

Blogger Al From Bay Shore October 01, 2017 8:04 AM  

A thought about Spain just occurred to me. It's associated with the beginning of the Reconquista, and its civil war was the precursor to World War II.

Anonymous Steve October 01, 2017 8:05 AM  

To expect the Spanish State to tolerate this, and to think that France, Italy or Germany would act otherwise, is to be absolutely lost

I'd expect the Frogs, Wops or Krauts to show a little bit of nous. The Spaniards have handled this so incompetently someone should be locked in a room with a loaded revolver and a bottle of whatever atrocious swill the flamenco-dancing bull-botherers drink instead of whisky.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 8:06 AM  

In this video, rioters try to attack a police truck.

https://twitter.com/joosearodriguez/status/914405478687440897

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar October 01, 2017 8:13 AM  

Steve

If it was up to me the whole Madrid government would be hung in the public square for treason + incompetence.

About your comment on krauts, frogs, etc., no way. The MAGNITUDE of what's happening in Catalonia far exceeds any internal situation in Italy, France or Germany. If France were facing a political situation like this, where one of its Departements declared itself rebellious against the Constitution of the 5th Republic and intended to destroy the unity of France, you can bet that the French State would not sit and watch while the nation is destroyed.

I'm Spanish and really, this is starting to feel like a coordinated attack on my nation from all corners. Cui prodest?

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 8:20 AM  

@Alvin von Diaspar, also my thoughts. There are some rumors about Qatari money involved through that Trotskyist media mogul, Jaume Roures.

Blogger ZhukovG October 01, 2017 8:21 AM  

Even if Madrid wins; they have lost. That is the only truth that matters.

All the dialectic in the world will not help, once you lose on rhetoric.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 8:22 AM  

"including the very core of the Spanish Constitution."

Dialectically, Alvin, you're obviously a liar.

"To expect the Spanish State to tolerate this, and to think that France, Italy or Germany would act otherwise, is to be absolutely lost."

True, but totally irrelevant, seeing as those kid-gloves are the presented face of "legitimate" government. Taking them off is showing that that legitimacy is bullshit, and that the legitimacy is actually force, just as it always has been. Expecting the rebelling Catalonians to respond in kind is only logical.

Spain with Catalonia as a part of it is obviously dead, but the corpse is still twitching, and may continue to do so for years to come.

"Do you really think all people in the world ("world opinion") cares about the kneeling of NFL players?"

Obviously not but he himself lives in the USA, as do I. Don't expect us to not refer to our own news (and its obvious biases) when talking amongst ourselves. In short, don't be obtuse.

Anonymous Mayonnaise October 01, 2017 8:23 AM  

In this video, rioters try to attack a police truck.

Watched the video. Looks more like: "Demonstrators try to stop a police truck."

Not taking sides, but you won't win me over by employing manipulative language.

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 01, 2017 8:25 AM  

And ????

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 8:26 AM  

Alvin, "The concept of Spain as an entity apart from Catalonia is a recent invention of Catalan nationalism and absolutely anti-historical."

I italicized the functional part of your sentence, because it marks the rest of the sentence as hogwash. It doesn't matter even if it WERE anti-historical (it's not, actually, considering that Catalonia DID indeed exist BEFORE Spain did), the very fact that a notable section of Catalonia considers itself to be "other" than Spain, and will not relent, means that Spain containing Catalonia is dead.

Stop lying, Alvin. You're not good at it.

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 8:27 AM  

Another video from today. Spanish Police kept hitting people who were not even defending themselves, just staying there as a human wall to protect the ballots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUJNbLa4ko

You can hear people telling "assassins" to the police, which is the Catalan word for "assassins", same as English.

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 01, 2017 8:30 AM  

I wonder how the arrests went when Lincoln sent troops to arrest Maryland Legislators, in 1861, and stop then from seceding.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar October 01, 2017 8:33 AM  

ZhukovG

I do agree that propaganda beats truth; but I thought maybe in this self-reported "high IQ" blog people would be able to correctly assess what's being done in Catalonia.

In Catalonia, a regional administration, whose power and legitimacy emanate from the Spanish Constitution, has declared itself in rebellion against said Constitution, and, through a masterful use of propaganda, is weaponizing a referendum and our modern-day cult around "democracy" and the act of voting in order to carry out its attempt to destroy a State such as Spain. Believe me, separatists in Catalonia are very happy with all these videos and images circulating social media. For that, I blame the Spanish government; it should've NEVER allowed this situation to happen.

But the expectation that the Spanish State should willingly invalidate itself and sit and watch while a part of its territory separates, is an absolutely childish expectation, absolutely congruent with the millenial, postmodern mindset otherwise.

Blogger JACIII October 01, 2017 8:36 AM  

Do note we haven't seen such ordered, organized, and determined resistance to the afro/muslim invasion from any European governments not in eastern Europe.
This tells you what is important to the bureaucrats. They aren't actually incapable of it, they simply aren't interested in it.

Blogger Sam Spade October 01, 2017 8:37 AM  

@Alvin "I'm Spanish and really, this is starting to feel like a coordinated attack on my nation from all corners. Cui prodest?"

On point. We are alone, just read all the foreign opinions. More evidence to the need of going out of the EU. Nobody wants Spain well-being.

Or Catalonian..

Blogger ZhukovG October 01, 2017 8:45 AM  

@Alvin von Diaspar: We have correctly assessed that the 'Spanish State' is shooting itself in the head.

I also observe that Madrid has learned nothing from 1898, another victory of rhetoric over dialectic.

Also a Nation-State is not destroyed by losing some territory. It is destroyed if it loses legitimacy in the eyes of its people. That is what is at stake here, and Madrid is falling into a catch-22 situation.

Blogger Jan Minář October 01, 2017 8:45 AM  

The central government could let the plebiscite proceed, then ignore the result as non-binding, perhaps impose heavy sentences on the seditious factions. Where is the clear and present danger that justifies the use of force & suppression of the vote at gunpoint? Someone in the Madrid government wanted to provoke a secession.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 8:47 AM  

@Mayonnaise: Though that demonstrators are pacific, and do not try to provoke police forces. Anyway, potato, potatoe, as those people are breaching the law.

Also, my thanks for your attempt to lend credibility to my comments.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 8:50 AM  

@ZhukovG, you have correctly done anything, but showing a quite non-remarkable case of Dunning-Kruger effect.

Being red-pilled does not make one omniscient.

Blogger Aaron Swenson October 01, 2017 8:50 AM  

By ballot, or by bullet. Choose wisely, TPTB.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 8:52 AM  

"In Catalonia, a regional administration, whose power and legitimacy emanate from the Spanish Constitution, has declared itself in rebellion against said Constitution"

The constitution that itself gains its legitimacy from the fete, real or imagined, that it is democratic in nature.

"and, through a masterful use of propaganda, is weaponizing a referendum and our modern-day cult around "democracy""

Wrong. Spain itself did that, along with many other governments. The Catalonian region is simply leveraging the modern-day-cult forces against the people who created and supported them. Turnabout is fair play.

"and the act of voting in order to carry out its attempt to destroy a State such as Spain."

Tell us something that isn't only obvious, but stated already by all parties involved. Cool story bro. The only question here is whether Spain (with Catalonia as a part of it) needs to die.

"elieve me, separatists in Catalonia are very happy with all these videos and images circulating social media."

Yes, because they're winning incomparably at those levels of the battle, and Most People Being Idiots, those are the main levels that are going to matter in the near future.

"For that, I blame the Spanish government; it should've NEVER allowed this situation to happen."

Absolutely correct. Almost certainly too late to change at this point.

"I thought maybe in this self-reported "high IQ" blog people would be able to correctly assess what's being done in Catalonia."

Actually doing it better than you yourself are in some cases. Your adherence to your imagination of what you wish Spain to be is blinding you to the reality of what it IS and what it is becoming.

"But the expectation that the Spanish State should willingly invalidate itself and sit and watch while a part of its territory separates, is an absolutely childish expectation, absolutely congruent with the millenial, postmodern mindset otherwise."

Nobody really disagrees with you on that point, Alvin. I for one am in the USA, where the Southerners still call a particular war "The War of Northern Aggression" and the Northerners call it "The Civil War". In that war, the South had both the moral and the legal high ground to secede, but was forced, militarily, not to. The immoral war was propaganda-whitewashed after the fact as a "war to end slavery" as a means to try to make the war look moral, rather than motivated by greed and power (the true motivations).

Obviously Spain's government was not wise enough to deal with the situation in a more effective fashion, so it has already lost.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 8:56 AM  

"you have correctly done anything, but showing a quite non-remarkable case of Dunning-Kruger effect."

This sentence speaks for itself NobodyExpects_, you're too short for this ride. The shown Dunning-Kruger effect is your own.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 8:59 AM  

@AA, better go learn what *is* the right of self-determination...

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 9:01 AM  

@NE, We've been over that before. You literally refuse to comprehend the dictionary definitions of those two words. Checkmate.

Anonymous Steve October 01, 2017 9:01 AM  

More evidence to the need of going out of the EU.

You absolutely must leave the EU. In fact, without the EU, this trouble in Catalonia wouldn't be happening. For the mirage of "independence in Europe" casts a powerful spell over fake nationalist movements.

You say "nobody wants Spain well-being", but... what about Spain? What are Spaniards doing for their own well-being? Like the rest of Western Europe, they're living like the herbivorous Eloi, gaily frolicking and masturbating while the Morlocks sharpen their utensils.

Uncuck yourselves, expel the migrants, and have lots of beautiful Spanish babies. Your grandparents did it, you can too.

As a one-time special offer I'll even throw in Gibraltar as a free gift if you Make Reconquista Great Again.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar October 01, 2017 9:04 AM  

Azure Amaranthine

The right to self-determination, like all rights, is a fiction. The only existing reality is the POWER to impose "self"-determination, that is, of a minority of people to seaze power over a territory and expell the powers currently in charge. Or, alternatively, the power of other agents (such as foreign nations) to force a country to give up its control of a certain territory.

"Self"-determination is a myth, little more than that.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 9:05 AM  

@AA, when one feels the need to claim victory, usually is because he is conscious of his defeat.

And, please, stop lowering the SNR here.

Anonymous SAK October 01, 2017 9:06 AM  

"This is performance art"

Nice of Spain to enter stage left to play the part of the over the top villain. Couldn't have helped the separatists more.

Blogger Lemur October 01, 2017 9:06 AM  

whoever is least gay will win

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 9:06 AM  

NobodyExpects_, In before you try to foist the Spanish-legal definitions of "Internal" and "External" self determination on us while refusing the blindingly obvious realization that when people lack the right to "External self-determination" that actually means that they are controlled by outside forces. By definition, this means that they lack complete self-determination.

Blogger Daniel October 01, 2017 9:08 AM  

Spaniards are not the sharpest tool in europe's tool box. They justo got lucky once with columbus, thats it

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 9:09 AM  

NobodyExpects, You're incapable of dialectic argument.

One claims victory by placing his boot on the neck of his former rival when his former rival will not bow to more polite indications of domination.

You're a moron, NobodyExpects, and you're dishonest to boot.

Anonymous Rocklea October 01, 2017 9:11 AM  

To the Spanish people commenting here, do you like the Catalans? I mean, are there any good ones?

"I do agree that propaganda beats truth; but I thought maybe in this self-reported "high IQ" blog people would be able to correctly assess what's being done in Catalonia."

Just imagine what the low IQ are thinking. They seem to have a firmer grasp on reality, like midgets having a closer centre of gravity.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 9:14 AM  

@71. Alvin von Diaspar, absolutely correct.

Self determination as-stated is a polite myth. The reality of "self determination" or "free will" is most plainly seen in the nature of a slave. They are a slave because they lack the will to either be free or die trying. Slaves are craven, and the only "self-determination" extends to nothing beyond one's ability to change reality, by any kind of force, to suit him.

Spain's problems is that its legitimacy is based on "self-determination", something that it is clearly and plainly violating in Catalonia.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 9:15 AM  

I am Catalan.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 9:19 AM  

@80. NobodyExpects, you're also a rhetorical thinker, and a poor one.

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 9:21 AM  

I am Catalan

With that, do you mean that your ancestors were from Catalonia? or does it mean that you were born in Catalonia?

Blogger VD October 01, 2017 9:23 AM  

I do agree that propaganda beats truth; but I thought maybe in this self-reported "high IQ" blog people would be able to correctly assess what's being done in Catalonia.

We can. We are more intelligent than you are and we can observe when you are lying. You are a statist. You support the Spanish STATE against the Catalan nation. We are NATIONALISTS. We support the Catalan NATION against the Spanish state.

We are very familiar with the attempts of people like you to confuse the two terms. They are not synonymous. You are a statist. We are nationalists. That is why we are on different sides here.

Anonymous Rocklea October 01, 2017 9:25 AM  

"I am Catalan."

Excellent, then being ruled by foreign people seems to be more important to you than self governance. Would like some liberal elite Jewish expats? They do a bang up job in most places.

Blogger VD October 01, 2017 9:25 AM  

We are alone, just read all the foreign opinions. More evidence to the need of going out of the EU. Nobody wants Spain well-being.

Spain never should have joined the EU in the first place. And yes, it should get out of the EU ASAFP. And it should do so without Catalonia.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 9:26 AM  

There is a Spanish nation, but there never was a Catalan nation.

The Reconquista was a Spanish enterprise, according to contemporary chronicles.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 9:28 AM  

@Rocklea: I am not being ruled by foreign people in my country. All rulers we have, elected, are Spanish nationals.

Those rioters, however, want to rob me of my country.

Blogger Resident Moron™ October 01, 2017 9:29 AM  

Just for the record, Alvin:

many EU member states have a sizable moslem minority that regularly declares itself free of local law and governance in preference to sharia, has established enclaves where local law does not hold, and are violently asserting their independence from it.

None of these states are handling the situation well, including Spain.

Anonymous Rocklea October 01, 2017 9:29 AM  

"There is a Spanish nation, but there never was a Catalan nation."

then:
"I am Catalan."

The cognitive dissonance is strong with this one.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 9:34 AM  

Well, more cognitive dissonance: Catalans are people born in Catalonia, as Californians are people born in California, Angelenos are people living in Los Angeles...

Yes, cognitive dissonance.

Some intellectual dishonesty, too.

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 9:38 AM  

many EU member states have a sizable moslem minority that regularly declares itself free of local law and governance in preference to sharia, has established enclaves where local law does not hold, and are violently asserting their independence from it.

And because of that Europe needs more nationalism. If there's a solution to that, it will come from the nations of Europe deciding this is not their people and they don't want them in their land.

Political states only care about raw power. They will serve whoever has the demographic majority, as long as they can sit in the throne, handle the money, travel to Bruxelles once in a while, which is the new Versailles, and feel empowered. Modern political states are just a bunch of high class people playing the "Roi Soleil".

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 9:41 AM  

Well, more cognitive dissonance: Catalans are people born in Catalonia, as Californians are people born in California

No. They are not. As being born in America is not enough to be American, though it's enough to get the passport.

But "being" and "being born" are a very different thing.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 9:42 AM  

So, Yann, you are intent in breaking the oldest nation in Europe?

BTW, I could introduce you to plenty of people with eight Catalan surnames that will tell you they are Spanish. Some even have "Limpieza de Sangre" certificates.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 9:43 AM  

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/catalan

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 9:48 AM  

Also, Yann, are you not worried about people that are not Catalan -according to what you think a Catalan is- are free to vote in this referendum? Where is your righteous indignation?

https://okdiario.com/espana/2017/10/01/1-o-gran-mentira-dos-reporteros-okdiario-censados-madrid-votan-dni-falso-1373029

Blogger Jon D. October 01, 2017 9:52 AM  

4GW fail

Blogger James Dixon October 01, 2017 9:54 AM  

> How do you feel having self-portrayed Nazis supporting you?

What's right is right, it doesn't matter who supports it.

> To expect the Spanish State to tolerate this, and to think that France, Italy or Germany would act otherwise, is to be absolutely lost.

You really have no idea how this works, do you?

> One claims victory by placing his boot on the neck of his former rival when his former rival will not bow to more polite indications of domination.

Yes, we know that in the final analysis might makes right. We've always known that. It changes nothing about the current situation.

Prior to these actions by Spain, the vote was uncertain. It's not now. Catalonia is now going to vote for secession, come hell or high water. Once the vote is completed they will begin the process. Spain will react with violence, as they already have. This will be met with violence by Catalonia. And eventually the EU or even the UN will be forced to take a hand. Their decisions will decide the matter, not Spain's.

Blogger Daniel October 01, 2017 9:55 AM  

Una dosis de realidad para los españoles que siempre se creyeron mas inteligentes y capaces de lo que realmente son. No son nada sin papá Alemania. Si aprenden de esto capaz que con el tiempo puedan llegar a mejorar algo

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 9:57 AM  

The vote was never uncertain. Yes was going to win, even if they need 20 million total votes.

No wonder US foreign policy could be approximated by the metaphor of the elephant in the China shop. The Diem Assassination should have made you think, but seems you were more busy trying to be pick up artists.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 9:58 AM  

Daniel, que te den.

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 9:59 AM  

Also, Yann, are you not worried about people that are not Catalan -according to what you think a Catalan is- are free to vote in this referendum?

They have used a fake identity card with the data from a person who has residence in Catalonia (otherwise he wouldn't have appeared when they checked whether he was in the census).

In a nutshell, they could vote using falsified documents. So what?

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 10:00 AM  

Nothing, of course. The seditious ones could do no wrong in your eyes.

Blogger Daniel October 01, 2017 10:05 AM  

El problema con ustedes es mucha siesta... No le echen la culpa a los demás

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 10:12 AM  

Anda, deja de inventar cosas, tú

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 10:13 AM  

Daniel, please, this is a English-language page. Most of people here don't speak Spanish. It's not exactly polite to use a language they can not understand.

Rules of politeness oblige.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 10:14 AM  

So what? Seems my Catalan-ness up to great-grandparents was important to you, and now you make not a big deal of people voting using fake IDs?

You fake supremacists could be so funny, sometimes...

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar October 01, 2017 10:21 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 10:23 AM  

and now you make not a big deal of people voting using fake IDs?
You fake supremacists could be so funny, sometimes


With a fake identity card from a person in the census (and you can see they checked the census, which means the ID card corresponded to a person who appeared in the census) you could do the same in any election in Europe. No election in Europe as far as I know checks fingerprints.

Blogger Daniel October 01, 2017 10:24 AM  

Hell of an argument

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar October 01, 2017 10:25 AM  

VD

Your habit of constantly reminding others of your superior intelligence is, I would say, a demonstration that you might not be so intelligent, and also that you're confusing "raw processing power" with a well constructed and consistent argument.

"Nation" is a polysemic word that has accumulated new meanings in the course of History. Nation comes from Latin "natio" (birth). In the past, people would talk, in Spanish, about "the tooth's nation" (the gum), or the "bull's nation" (the bull's genitals). In its original meaning, a nation meant birth, blood, tribe. Nations would be identified (by third agents, as the Roman Empire or Greek travelers) according to shared traits, such as a language, a location, a way of dressing, a race, etc. You could even today talk about the "gipsy nation", a group of people defined by their blood and nothing else.

Political nations are different, since they merge different groups of people under one State, and view all individuals as citizens, which is an exercise of abstraction that's not always easy to make and maintain.

Between these two extremes, there all many, many stations, so to say. If you want to strictly follow the tribalistic criterion, I'm afraid the Catalan "tribal nation" does not exist, as the Spanish political nation has in fact determined its contents (its regions, its peoples). Therefore, to view Spain merely as a "State", an administrative skeleton holding separate national "organs", ignores the historical processes whereby these "organs" have been transformed and remade as they all took part in the Spanish enterprise.

Likewise, the vast differences (larger than in Spain) between the distinct Italian regions before their unification in the XIXth century have to a large degree been overcome or overriden by the birth of an Italian sentiment and of course an Italian political nation that has transformed its contents (through the movement of peoples, a shared educational system, the creation of a unified Italian following the Tuscan Italian, etc.).

Spain, Italy, France (keep in mind that during the Napoleonic wars the generals had huge trouble communicating orders to many batallions that had no idea of French), are a lot more than mere administrative "suprastructures" floating above separate national bodies, but the historical creation of predecessor kingdoms/principalties and the result of their collaboration in different historical enterprises. And this historical nations have, in turn, transformed the peoples that participated in it, and have created huge anomalies, such as the fact that an Andalusian and an Aragonese that lives near France have more things in common than the Aragonese and a Frenchman across the border. In Spain there is a Spanish sentiment, and it is shared by many Catalans. Your concept of nation as "essence", as some sort of atomic identity or substance, is a myth. Catalans are mixed, their culture has been transformed by being a part of Spain for 5 centuries.

Now, you want to convince me that maybe 2-3 million Catalans want independence? You don't need to, I know it. But just give me an educational system, all media, infinite money to finance all kinds of nationalistic organizations in "civil society", and 40 years, and I'll give you a nation.

You may say whatever you wish, but you're not supporting the Catalan nation against the Spanish state, but the Catalan political nation against the Spanish political nation. A Catalan political nation where the criterion for citizenship will still be the ownership of a passport, where half of Catalonia will have ancestry in the rest of Spain, and where some towns already look like North Africa. You're just supporting the Catalan political elite class' attempt to have complete control of the Catalan territory, NOT the foundation of a tribal republic dedicated to the preservation of "las esencias".

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 10:31 AM  

@Yann, seems you have never served in an election. I have served in several. Spanish ID cards have a picture of the person, so it is very easy to check if the ID is of that person or not. Faking Spanish ID cards is also quite difficult.

But, heck, what are facts when there is a narrative to keep?

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 10:44 AM  

seems you have never served in an election. I have served in several. Spanish ID cards have a picture of the person, so it is very easy to check if the ID is of that person or not.

And you can see than in the video you linked that they checked the ID, which means that either they falsified the photography, either they found two people alike enough. At the end of the day, it depends on the person in the table checking the ID's picture, which is exactly the same system than you have in any election in Europe.

I'm not gonna argue about the system being safe enough or not. It's a pointless debate. You think that the system is not safe enough to be considered legit? Fine. Be my guest, but then neither the general elections in Spain would be legit, neither would be legit the current Spanish Government.

Anonymous RandyJJ October 01, 2017 10:46 AM  

"So what? Seems my Catalan-ness up to great-grandparents was important to you, and now you make not a big deal of people voting using fake IDs?

You fake supremacists could be so funny, sometimes..."
What, do you expect people to denounce the referendum because some people might vote with fake ID's? People can do that in every election, ever, world-wide. If that's your standard for 'justice' then there is no such thing as a 'just' election because oh no, people can vote using fake ID's!

There comes a time when it's better to just stop talking and let your arguments rest on their current merits. I don't know precisely when you passed that point, but you definitely did.

Blogger Johnny October 01, 2017 10:47 AM  

Rocklea wrote:"I am Catalan."

The cognitive dissonance is strong with this one.


In the political arena identity is self referential. You are what you think you are.

Blogger seeingsights October 01, 2017 10:48 AM  

The oddsmakers say that "yes" on the referendum will win.
I've been wondering how a "yes" vote will play out on European politics at large. Here are my thoughts:
I'm inclined to think that it will contribute to the decline of the EU.
Other regions of Europe may be inspired to hold their own separatist vote, such as Northern Italy.
In response to force from the government of Spain, Catalonian secessionists will reply with guerrilla warfare.
If EU officials side with Spain, then the chances of countries exiting the EU increases. More will see the EU as a sham.

Anonymous Rocklea October 01, 2017 10:48 AM  

"Your concept of nation as "essence", as some sort of atomic identity or substance, is a myth."

But not when you have oodles of money apparently:

"But just give me an educational system, all media, infinite money to finance all kinds of nationalistic organizations in "civil society", and 40 years, and I'll give you a nation."

So with enough money and time you can embue the people shaped blobs with enough essence for nationhood.

Blogger tz October 01, 2017 10:48 AM  

It raises questions in other areas. Don't put allmyour Basques in one exit. And isn't the EU threatening the same thing to "member nations".

I think one of the reasons Trump won was precisely the insults thrown at himmand his followers instead ofmthe usual parade of dry experts commemting his policies couldn't work.

Instead of countering with tear-jerk poor hard working illegal immigrants or some black family with cancer in Flint, they, in their hubris, basically kept it about Trump and Hillary on a personal level (first woman president).

The alt-right can win by default.
Cuckservative: man who won't fight a man raping his wife for some unknown, abstract principle, or is just afraid of being caled racist.
Liberal: the one committing the rape.
Alt-Right: the wife who pulls out her CCW and shoots the rapist in the groin and heart. The head is an empty target.

Blogger Lazarus October 01, 2017 11:05 AM  

Alvin von Diaspar wrote:Political nations are different, since they merge different groups of people under one State, and view all individuals as citizens, which is an exercise of abstraction that's not always easy to make and maintain.



Especially since the Constitutional Court in Madrid ruled that Catalonia could call itself a nation 7 years ago.

The panel of 10 judges accepted the most contentious point of the statute that defined Catalonia as "a nation" insisting that it was a historical and cultural term only and had "no legal value" that would violate Spain's constitution.

That was rather naive.

Blogger Johnny October 01, 2017 11:14 AM  

@110 Alvin von Diaspar

I suspect what is driving opinion here is that collectively we don't like the current political culture, and thus tend to see any disruption as potentially useful. Thus the tendency is to go with the disrupters, in this case the Calatans seeking independence.

As for intelligence, I have argued with people who I knew were wrong but were too stupid to figure out why. But that does not translate to smarter is always correct. It definitely is possible to over think things by using needlessly complex arguments that lead one astray. Sometimes a thing as simple as attitude will get you to the the best outcome in a real life situation. And with some painful frequency intelligence gets used not to divine truth but to fool the minions.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 11:17 AM  

@Lazarus, that was beyond your usual uninformed claim. That thing about nation is in a section of the "Estatut" that has no legal force, and thus was left as it was.

Of course, Hispanophobes would complain anyway.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 01, 2017 11:22 AM  

Now it is possible to vote without any ID whatsoever.

https://okdiario.com/espana/cataluna/2017/10/01/govern-implanta-censo-universal-sin-exigir-dni-puede-votar-quien-quiera-cuantas-veces-quiera-1371449?utm_campaign=ok&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1506841449

Anonymous Crew October 01, 2017 11:23 AM  

@76: And Columbus was Genoese!

Anonymous Crew October 01, 2017 11:32 AM  

Meanwhile, a Muslim enraged by the lack of independence for Catalonia kills some women in France, or something like that. I guess he was too afraid to attack men or maybe he thought French men all dress like that:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4587920/marseille-train-station-attack-dead-stabbing-army-two-dead-latest-updates/

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 11:33 AM  

Vote early, vote often.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLEAXpcXcAALJRm.jpg

Blogger Ken Prescott October 01, 2017 11:41 AM  

Moral high ground to secede? Are you saying that chattel slavery is a moral good?

Legal high ground? The several states that seceded were admitted to the Union by a supermajority of existing states, based on the presumption that admitting the new state was in their interests.. Had the notion of unilateral secession been considered to be legitimate, then no state would have been willing to admit a new state...

As evinced by that arch-Unionist, Senator Jefferson Davis, who vowed that any state seceding over the Fugitive Slave Act would be returned to the Union, at bayonet point if necessary...

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 11:41 AM  

"In the political arena identity is self referential. You are what you think you are."

Wrong. You are whatever the ultimate power says you are. Identification is not EVER something that you do to yourself for other people, it's what other people do TO YOU, and they MAY be trusting enough to give you the benefit of the doubt about what you say.

"So with enough money and time you can embue the people shaped blobs with enough essence for nationhood."

Looks like Rocklea found the Marxist.

"The panel of 10 judges accepted the most contentious point of the statute that defined Catalonia as "a nation" insisting that it was a historical and cultural term only and had "no legal value" that would violate Spain's constitution."

This would mean that Spain is, by its own definition, at least a hegemony, possibly an empire.

"It definitely is possible to over think things by using needlessly complex arguments that lead one astray."

That's called rationalization, and yes, more intelligent people are better at rationalizing, meaning that it's more likely that other people than themselves will believe their rationalizations, while leaving them equally prone to error.

"The heart wants what it wants", to quote an individual who spouted a grain of truth.

Anonymous bearspaw October 01, 2017 11:42 AM  

Seems the Barcelona-Las Palmas game kicked off on time. Probably no polling place at the Camp Nou...

Blogger VD October 01, 2017 11:45 AM  

Your habit of constantly reminding others of your superior intelligence is, I would say, a demonstration that you might not be so intelligent.

That's what people who are insecure about their lack of intelligence always say. "You see, if he SAYS he's tall, obviously he's demonstrating that he totally isn't. Never mind the fact that one can plainly see that he's 6'10". QED."

"Nation" is a polysemic word that has accumulated new meanings in the course of History. Nation comes from Latin "natio" (birth). In the past, people would talk, in Spanish, about "the tooth's nation" (the gum), or the "bull's nation" (the bull's genitals). In its original meaning, a nation meant birth, blood, tribe. Nations would be identified (by third agents, as the Roman Empire or Greek travelers) according to shared traits, such as a language, a location, a way of dressing, a race, etc. You could even today talk about the "gipsy nation", a group of people defined by their blood and nothing else.

Ah yes, unleash the definitional fog to obscure the fact that you have no convincing argument to offer other than might makes right. You are a statist arguing in defense of the state, and you are dishonestly attempting to conflate two distinct terms.

You are not merely wrong, you are obviously wrong. And you are also morally wrong, which is why the Spanish state had to resort to masked police in lieu of argument.

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 11:52 AM  

Now it is possible to vote without any ID whatsoever.

FAKE NEWS

The govern has allowed to vote in any election point (since the Spanish Police is closing elections points). The census is available online for those election points. However, you're required ID or passport, and you can not vote more than once, since once you've voted, the online census is updated so you count as "voted".

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 11:55 AM  

VD, you are assuming the secessionists could be reasoned with. Imagine that you could not. What could be done in order to preserve the law?

(yes, even assuming law is an immaterial construct, but a bit of lawfulness is necessary in the modern world)

Of course, you could always say that law do not matter. But, in that case, Will some kind of moral superiority, or moral level matter too?

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 11:58 AM  

@Yann, tell that to that gentleman that has been pictured voting at least three times.

Yes, fake news too...

I am still waiting for proof that a big, bad, thuggish, Spanish policeman threw that little old lady by those stairs, BTW.

What was that thing about moral high ground, again?

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 12:06 PM  

"Moral high ground to secede? Are you saying that chattel slavery is a moral good?"

The war wasn't about slavery, despite the rationalization-propaganda the north foisted to gain the dox-moral high ground after the fact. The south wished to secede because it was, paying 2/3rds of the total taxes with 1/3rd of the population while receiving substantially less than 1/3 of the benefits. So, being taxed more than FOUR TIMES their fair share. The north owned slaves as well. Even Lincoln himself would tell you that slavery was a secondary concern (at best) for the war.

As for the morality of slavery, to be brutally honest, the master-slave relationship is functionally identical to the parent-child one. One person has control over and responsibility for another. There were (and are, let's not kid ourselves, slavery still exists in every country on Earth, though it's not legal in some) brutal, irresponsible, abusive and evil masters. There were and are brutal, irresponsible, abusive and evil parents. Both should be terminated with extreme prejudice.

As for "chattel" slavery, I assume you're referring to people not being able to work their slave-debt off, and/or their children automatically being slaves. I don't really like the idea of either, but if you don't have an immoral master, neither is a moral problem. If you have a moral master, reasonable, moral boundaries will be provided for both dynamics.

"Legal high ground? The several states that seceded were admitted to the Union by a supermajority of existing states, based on the presumption that admitting the new state was in their interests.. Had the notion of unilateral secession been considered to be legitimate, then no state would have been willing to admit a new state..."

Your argument is both completely illogical and completely irrelevant. According the the constitution, all powers not specifically granted to the fedgov belong to the state, all powers not specifically granted to the stay belong to the county/city, and etc. The right to secede (or block secession) is NOT specifically granted to the fedgov, thus the North was also LEGALLY in breach of the constitution. Lincoln was a dictator-tyrant, greatly overstepping his legal bounds for no better reason than that he felt like it "The Union must remain united!"

Anonymous Crew October 01, 2017 12:07 PM  

I am still waiting for proof that a big, bad, thuggish, Spanish policeman threw that little old lady by those stairs, BTW.

Down the fucking stairs!

Prepositions matter!

Blogger Johnny October 01, 2017 12:07 PM  

Just viewing it from afar it sure does look like the government is blundering this thing. If they want to use the cops and force, they should be directing it against the instigators, not the voting public. Arrest the people running the place or seize the ballot boxes or whatever. And of course maybe using the police powers of the state is a bad idea in the first place.

Blogger Johnny October 01, 2017 12:12 PM  

NobodyExpects_ wrote:I am still waiting for proof that a big, bad, thuggish, Spanish policeman threw that little old lady by those stairs, BTW.

This stuff always makes me a little crazy also, but things are as they are and the they got to picture and so the cops are condemned.

I don't automatically blame the individual cop because most of the time they are the prisoner of circumstance, but otherwise this sure is an inept police action. It seems calculated to make the government look as bad as possible.

Anonymous Crew October 01, 2017 12:14 PM  

In other news Trump beat the NFL!

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 12:14 PM  

@Crew, sorry non-native. However, I have my doubts about those stairs being of the fornicating type.

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 12:15 PM  

tell that to that gentleman that has been pictured voting at least three times. Yes, fake news too...

That case I'd rather say "pixelated" news.

And by "pixelated" I mean the three pics where the supposed same guy appears voting... and where you just see a pixelated guy wearing the same clothes, which can be or can not be the same guy, since the face is pixelated.

Here is the link, in case somebody feel curious:
http://www.abc.es/espana/20141111/abci-catalan-votante-consulta-201411101826.html

Blogger ZhukovG October 01, 2017 12:20 PM  

@Johnny: Yes, Madrid is totally screwing this thing up. They have painted themselves into a corner and now, pretty much have no choice but to violently crush the Catalan independence movement.



Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 12:25 PM  

@Yann, look more "Fake news"

http://www.abc.es/espana/abci-sociedad-civil-demuestra-puede-votar-varias-veces-colegios-distintos-201710011730_noticia.html#ns_campaign=rrss-inducido&ns_mchannel=abc-es&ns_source=tw&ns_linkname=noticia.foto&ns_fee=0

Still no proof about that Spanish policeman trying to kill the little grandma?

Blogger Lazarus October 01, 2017 12:26 PM  

Meanwhile, in Madrid, Falangists sing Cara al Sol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A92B6ps-Vk

Blogger Mastermind October 01, 2017 12:28 PM  

Pretty silly take, you can't unilaterally withdraw out of most agreements just by shouting "democracy" and Catalonia sided with the communists during the civil war and lost, they are a conquered people and should be grateful they are allowed to vote at all.

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 12:30 PM  

This stuff always makes me a little crazy also, but things are as they are and the they got to picture and so the cops are condemned.

There's no video from the incident, but people started to record just after if happened. I put a link before in this same thread. You can see the beginning of the video, with the lady in the floor, and then the policeman leaving quickly.

What happened exactly? well, make your guess, up to the point you feel sure enough to guess, or leave it as unknown. However, take into account that Catalonia is not Pallywood.

Blogger VD October 01, 2017 12:34 PM  

Pretty silly take

Pretty stupid to entirely undermine your basis for government legitimacy. But clarity is always desirable.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 12:35 PM  

@Yann, of course no Catalan secessionist worth his salt would do a Pally and use his baby son as a human shield...

Oh wait:

https://twitter.com/zoidoJI/status/914425401379901440

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 12:36 PM  

@141. Untermind, "Pretty silly take, you can't unilaterally withdraw out of most agreements just by shouting "democracy""

You can when the whole house of cards claims to be based on "democracy".

"and Catalonia sided with the communists during the civil war and lost"

Totally irrelevant. Stop projecting your feels.

"they are a conquered people and should be grateful they are allowed to vote at all."

So you're saying they should be Stockholm syndrome exemplars? Again, irrelevant. You're almost sort of kind of close to relevancy though, in that it depends on whether they can force the issue or not, be that by political force, physical force, economic force, propaganda force, etc.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 12:38 PM  

*Fires more anecdotal evidence into the sh**fan, because rhetorical thinker fighting a doomed battle to the death.*

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 12:41 PM  

@Mastermind: Catalonia is not a conquered land. Thinking so is very stupid.

Also, seems @Yellow Piss is amusing itself modifying nicknames. How mature.

Blogger ZhukovG October 01, 2017 12:44 PM  

There are reports that Catalan Police are intervening, protecting people against the Spanish Police. If true, this is a serious escalation.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 12:45 PM  

Children are treated like children, deservedly so. Idiots are likewise treated like idiots, and get their heads shoved down when they try to stick their noses too far in the air.

Plainly hypocritical tyrants, similarly, are not long tolerated by much of anyone.

Blogger Phat Repat October 01, 2017 12:50 PM  

Hmmm... This is some really delicious stuff. Let's see the pretzel logic as CA or NY or various other locales decide to go their own way. Shall we use force and worry about loss of moral imperative? At what point does the shrieking of muh Demokracy become as ineffective as the bandying about of the term Raayyccissss? (hint: it already has)

Fun times ahead for all! :-D

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 12:50 PM  

@ZhukovG, True, there have been episodes of breaching of duty (disobeying lawful and legitimate orders) by the regional police, but no weapons brandished, nor shots exchanged. Some members of regional police have been arrested, and Spanish police unions just sued the commander of the regional police.

@YP, not in this blog.

OpenID tonsplace October 01, 2017 12:52 PM  

If France were facing a political situation like this, where one of its Departements declared itself rebellious against the Constitution of the 5th Republic and intended to destroy the unity of France, you can bet that the French State would not sit and watch while the nation is destroyed.
........

I call bullshit. Hajjis do that every fucking day and the frogs can't even vote for a candidate that wants to protect the French as people and a culture

Blogger James Dixon October 01, 2017 12:59 PM  

> The vote was never uncertain. Yes was going to win, even if they need 20 million total votes.

If Spain had allowed the vote, and run it, they could have tampered as much as needed to make sure they got the outcome they wanted.

> Your habit of constantly reminding others of your superior intelligence is, I would say, a demonstration that you might not be so intelligent...

The midwits are always so certain of their armchair psychology. Vox's IQ is a matter of record. Look it up.

> Wrong. You are whatever the ultimate power says you are.

I expect you and I would disagree about the nature of the "ultimate power".

> ...they are a conquered people...

At one time they were. Are they still conquered? Ah, that's the rub...

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 12:59 PM  

look more "Fake news"

Well, there's only one pic with no pixelated faces.

But it's true, in that pic the same guy appears voting three times.

Now the question is: how he did it?. Maybe he found no problem to do so. Maybe he could have used fake IDs and different names, as the ones in the link you linked before. Once you make one fake ID, why not several ones?

Right now, it's early to know. The pics have been released this same evening, so there's almost no information about that issue yet.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 01, 2017 1:02 PM  

Hajjis do that every fucking day and the frogs can't even vote for a candidate that wants to protect the French as people and a culture

Moslems are not considered a real threat. If the Bretons or Normans or Provencales or Gascons tried it, it would be stopped right the fuck now.

Spain is not a nation. Spain is, like France and Italy, a confederation. You can fog the air all you want, but a nation is what it is.

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 1:05 PM  

If France were facing a political situation like this, where one of its Departements declared itself rebellious against the Constitution of the 5th Republic and intended to destroy the unity of France, you can bet that the French State would not sit and watch while the nation is destroyed.

There has never been strong nationalist mouvements in France. Even the Bretagne was far less nationalist than mouvements in Spain.

Up to now, France was a highly respected and productive country. People were proud of being part of it. Next decade,s France is gonna look more and more like North Africa. So don't judge France by its past, because things are gonna change.

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 01, 2017 1:13 PM  

The whole thing is absurd. The fake-Spaniards in Madrid don't want fake-Catalonians in Barcelona to have their own fake-country to serve as a mini tax farm for the (((owners))) of the EUSSR/NATO/Fake Banana Empire, and they get idiots dressed as civilians and badge-gang goondas to engage in violence over a fake election, well covered by (((fake news))). How many anti-EUSSR and anti-NATO people are there in either place? In the meantime, while the distraction of the zeks goes on, more divisions of the invading army of dindus and musloids are resettled into position for the (((owners))) final solution for YT.

Blogger Chent October 01, 2017 1:17 PM  

Well, they have won the propaganda war but morality is not equal to propaganda.

They follow the leftist playbook: break the law, silence every person who disagrees and when the police comes, cry victim. The leftist cries out while he hits you.

This is not to say that the Spanish government has done well. The Spanish government has revealed himself as the biggest enemy to Spain and Spanish people.

The great powers (the elite) wants the independence of Catalonia and it seems that Rajoy is a servant of the elite. His actions have been the best for the secessionists.

I made some predictions and I am right so far. But I will wait for some days to other predictions to come true.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 1:20 PM  

@Chent, that is worrying, indeed.

BTW, someone wrote that calling rioters to demonstrators was not honest. Well, look the video in this article:

https://okdiario.com/espana/2017/10/01/brutal-agresion-guardia-civil-cuando-entraba-colegio-1374139

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 1:24 PM  

"I expect you and I would disagree about the nature of the "ultimate power"."

The ultimate power is God, since we're not leaving that to implications. Either way, one does not "identify" oneself. The very word "identify" implicitly means to determine what something else is, NEVER what oneself is to others. This is exactly why all the "I identify as X" is bullsh**, because you don't identify yourself.

As a sub note, part of what God did in creating us is to give us a measure of "free will", so people CAN, to an extent, change what they are. That being said... they still don't identify themselves. Reality is reality and it (generally) doesn't change instantly and absolutely just because someone feels like it. The only case where it does is in the distinct instance of someone making a choice that they have the power to make.

Blogger Chent October 01, 2017 1:24 PM  

"Well, there's only one pic with no pixelated faces.

But it's true, in that pic the same guy appears voting three times."


It's democracy, secessionist style! They are so democratic that you can vote as many times as you want.

A "referendum" where there is no Electoral Supreme Court, no census, no neutrality from the authority organizing it (the Catalan government). Where the foreign observers are paid by one party, where the count is made only by one party, where in the middle of the election day a Wordpress web page appears for people to vote.

But hey, there are some boxes with a hole, so it must be democracy.. Tomorrow, as I have predicted, they will be proclaim victory.

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 01, 2017 1:25 PM  

Dunno why they didn't learn from what the UK did prior to the Scottish and Brexit referenda: threatening people doesn't work. It absolutely failed to keep Britain in the EU....

Really? The UK okrug is still part of the EUSSR, and Cat-Lady in charge recently committed to have "British" troops defend the EUSSR. Talks are under way (with no end in sight) to "negotiate" and exit from EUSSR, which will likely be a fake exit given the way things are done now and the level of general cluelessness. You can vote any way you want and you still get banksta.

Blogger Chent October 01, 2017 1:29 PM  

@NobodyExpects

Well, it has been a victory for the secessionists. They are the oppressors but they managed to play the victims. Crybullies, as any other leftist.

Blogger Chent October 01, 2017 1:31 PM  

The Catalan government breaks 20 articles of its own (illegal) Law of Referendum (which was a joke to begin with)

https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2017-10-01/generalitat-incumple-20-articulos-propia-ley-referendum_1453126/


But there is boxes with a hole, so long live secessionist democracy!

Anonymous BBGKB October 01, 2017 1:33 PM  

If Catalonians can ban Spaniards from voting in Catalonia, then Spaniards can ban Catalonians from voting in Spain

Glad to see you are pro succession

What you wrote might be true for the U.S but in the rest of the world the events in Catalonia/Spain will get far more attention than the NFL

The international news I view covers the Cat/Spain with no NigKneeling. Even Milo has seen more news from Spain than blacks going down on their knees this week.


Semi OT: I attended a lecture by a Washington think tank member speaking about the fate of western Europe. It was pro EU globalism. I bit my tongue at the Russia/Putin ect so my 2 questions at the end were rhetorical shivs to the amygdales of most of the people in the room. At least she was honest enough to explain her SNAP election UK mention was not the anti BREXIT win she alluded to. While my second question involved illegal aliens in Greece's debt+ how Golden Dawn got popular by tossing illegals out of hospitals that were so full they turned Greek citizens away. I bit my tongue again to not blame jews for the pre migrant debt.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 1:33 PM  

"You can vote any way you want and you still get banksta."

This couldn't have been much more clear than the instant the brexit vote passed and the politiCo. instantly started delaying and hedging. There was never any intent or provision for Britain leaving the EU, and until a lot of people wind up depending on ropes, internally juggling lead, or kissing Madame G, that's not going to change.

Debt-slaves are debt-slaves, and that's not going to change until the ersatz debt-holders get dead.

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 1:39 PM  

Well, it has been a victory for the secessionists. They are the oppressors but they managed to play the victims

I find something curious in that narrative. How is that the "oppressors" want to part ways, while the supposed real "victims" don't want let them go?

It's like in US. Whites are the official "oppressors", blacks are the official "victims". However, whites would be real happy to go on their own. Now tell blacks that they're gonna have their own country and will be on their own.

When the supposed "oppressor" is the one that want to part ways and the supposed "victim" is the one that don't want to let the other one go no matter what... well, that's something to think about.

As Solomon did in the old story, and he knew who the fake mother was knowing who was the one that would happily agree the kid to be split, you can know who the real oppressor is, you just have to know who is the one that don't let the other one leave.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 01, 2017 1:40 PM  

You can console yourself with that thought when Spain has become a byword in how to ruin a country and lose a couple of provinces.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 1:41 PM  

Chent, you're not really saying anything meaningful. Both sides are lying a****lees, we already know this. The thing is, the Spanish government are now obvious lying a****les, and people aren't going to take that.

Blogger James Dixon October 01, 2017 1:42 PM  

> The ultimate power is God...

OK, we do agree. Surprising, but then I guess the real difference instead comes down to definitions, as indicated below.

> The very word "identify" implicitly means to determine what something else is, NEVER what oneself is to others.

The actual definition of the word has no such limitation.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 1:43 PM  

Chent wrote:@NobodyExpects

Well, it has been a victory for the secessionists. They are the oppressors but they managed to play the victims. Crybullies, as any other leftist.


Any bets on when these upstanding citizens around will demand the end of the State of Israel, and the impeachment of Trump?

Such a big sensitivity to rhetorical shallowness is not good.

Anonymous Jack Amok October 01, 2017 1:47 PM  

So, what are the official pro-Madrid talking points today?

-The vote is rigged and fraud was planned from the start.
-The protesters are beating themselves up to make the police, who are just doing their job, look bad.
-Catalonia has no claim to nationhood

Did I miss anything?

Blogger pyrrhus October 01, 2017 1:48 PM  

More than 400 Catalans injured as police attack voters...Chaos ensues...https://mishtalk.com/2017/10/01/catalonia-referendum-sparks-chaos-and-clashes-hundreds-injured-in-police-clashes/

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 1:50 PM  

Well, you did not miss an unhealthy dose of smugness, for sure.

Blogger Chent October 01, 2017 1:51 PM  

I find something curious in that narrative. How is that the "oppressors" want to part ways, while the supposed real "victims" don't want let them go?

Because things are not that simple. The people that want to go are less than 50%. The other 50% are afraid to express themselves even if their workplace (I have close friends in this situation). You don't need majority when you have the power and the will to impose it (as with secessionists or Hitler)

If secessionists were not opressors, they would let have a public debate about the pros and cons about independence. If they had good arguments, people would choose independence.

Instead of this, they use the public TV to spread propaganda for decades (see 48 hours of TV3, http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/09/28/59cc0fdd46163f827a8b460b.html). They indoctrinate children in a false history (where Catalonia has been an independent country). When people want their kids being educated in Spanish, they force them to school them in Catalan. When the Supreme Court says that this is illegal, they break the law. When a shopper wants to put the sign of their shop in Spanish, they fine him. They only give public money to people in favor of independence.

Blogger Chent October 01, 2017 1:52 PM  

@NobodyExpects

There are only an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. They don't know and they don't know they don't know.

Anonymous Ivan Throne October 01, 2017 1:53 PM  

Remember, "the law" does not actually exist in any material sense. It is merely a collective agreement, which ceases to exist when a sufficient number of people unilaterally withdraw from it.

This.

Regards,

Ivan

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 01, 2017 1:53 PM  

Well, it has been a victory for the secessionists. They are the oppressors but they managed to play the victims. Crybullies, as any other leftist.

Yes, and anyone with half their brain tied behind their back could see that the fake-Spanish puppet regime's response - complete with ghost-dancing all about "sovereignty", "law", and "muh-constitution" - would play out that way. The fake-Catalonians are full-bore SJWs and the fake-Spanish full blown cucks. Entirely predictable. The chicken-fried kosher fortune-cookies everyone is eating all have the same message when opened: bow before your (((masters))).

Blogger Chent October 01, 2017 1:56 PM  

@Gen. Kong

The fake-Catalonians are full-bore SJWs and the fake-Spanish full blown cucks. Entirely predictable.

This is a good summary, Gen. Kong.

Anonymous Ages October 01, 2017 1:57 PM  

whose power and legitimacy emanate from the Spanish Constitution, has declared itself in rebellion against said Constitution

Bullshit. The people are sovereign. States exist to facilitate the people and their needs and desires. When a state becomes destructive to those ends, it loses its legitimacy.

Lets not forget that Jefferson envisioned a state of perpetual revolution. No constitution or government system ought to be self-serving.

I don’t care if Catalans are communists or what they are. If they want their own country it’s their right. I am in favor of secessionism across the board.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 2:01 PM  

"The actual definition of the word has no such limitation."

I'd agree that the actually modern use of the word ignores such limitations, intentionally and disingenuously.

However, the definition, per Miriam-Webster, contains these possibilities.

#1 a: To cause to be or become identical. (People saying "I identify as..." are not typically using it in this context, because they do not possess that power, E.G. "I identify as a woman" {no, MF'er, you're a man!}.

#1 b: To conceive as united (as in spirit, outlook, or principle). (People may be saying this for themselves, but they attempt to stretch this to force their {lying} conception on other people, thus they are also not honestly using it in this sense either).

#2 a: To establish the identity of. (One can attempt to identify oneself by discerning one's nature, but they cannot dictate their identity thereof, therefore they are not honestly using it in this sense.)

#2 b: To determine the taxonomic position of (a biological specimen). (Obviously they are not using it in this sense)


There are two other possible senses for the use of "identify" as well,

#1: To be or become the same. (They may be attempting to use it in this fashion, but as they often do not possess the power to make it so, they are not actually using it in this fashion.)

#2: To practice psychological identification, E.G. to identify with the hero of a novel. (This is probably the closest to what they are actually doing, and yet any child can tell you that they do not, in fact, become the hero of a story.)


This is why I say that "identifying", in the sense many people attempt to use it in modern times, cannot be done by oneself for others but is rather done by others for oneself. You may provide "identification" to the border patrol, but they determine whether that I.D. is valid or false.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 2:04 PM  

Hence my use of "implicitly" rather than "explicitly". Their intended use of the word determines the definitive implications they are attempting to operate under, which in this case exclude their attempted use of the word.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 2:04 PM  

Chent wrote:@NobodyExpects

There are only an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. They don't know and they don't know they don't know.


There is quite the sophomoric know-it-all attitude, on top of that.

Anonymous Ages October 01, 2017 2:05 PM  

Had the notion of unilateral secession been considered to be legitimate, then no state would have been willing to admit a new state...

Why? The union was not seen as a nation state but a federation of nation states.

Funny Jefferson didn’t threaten to raise an army when Masssachusetts was threatening secession during his administration.

10th amendment bro. If secession was so dangerous they would have declared the union to be perpetual. They did not. They did under the Articles of Confederation, but that did not carry over to the constitution.

Indeed several states in their accession documents explicitly reserved the right to withdraw, and nobody objected.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) October 01, 2017 2:05 PM  

6. NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 6:13 AM
Sorry, but this shallow, black-and-white view is sickening.


sorry, but Muh Dumbocracy isn't a valid moral basis for anything.

why don't you stop telling people that it is?

then you wouldn't look like an idiot for telling people that attempting to exercise their Marxian "democratic principles" and "right to vote" held any validity.

also, i'll point out that this is a repetition of the complaint found in the DoI;
foreign laws and principles are being foisted on Catalan by the rest of Spain.

and how "democratic" is it to "allow" Catalan ( pop 7.5 million ) to vote when whatever Catalans decide for Catalonia will be utterly swamped by the other 39 million voters in Spain.

this is what happens when 5 wolves and 1 sheep vote on what to eat for dinner.




10. torpedo October 01, 2017 6:22 AM
If Catalonians can ban Spaniards from voting in Catalonia, then Spaniards can ban Catalonians from voting in Spain.




Yugoslavian Serbs voted to keep Kosovo.

the consequences of that was that the US bombed the hell out of them and Slobodan got convicted of Genocide by a European court.

IF you had any integrity
THEN you would be demanding the same consequences for the Spanish.



58. Alvin von Diaspar October 01, 2017 8:33 AM
whose power and legitimacy emanate from the Spanish Constitution,




neither "legitimacy" nor "power" emanate from the Constitution.

"legitimacy" emanates from We The People.

"power" emanates from the .mil and .pol organs of the State.


59. JACIII October 01, 2017 8:36 AM
This tells you what is important to the bureaucrats. They aren't actually incapable of it, they simply aren't interested in it.



correct.

which is another strike against the national government.

IF the national .gov is going to willfully ignore immigration Law
THEN why should any portion of the citizenry pay attention to any other portion of the Law?


60. Sam Spade October 01, 2017 8:37 AM
More evidence to the need of going out of the EU.


but you've just spent the whole thread telling us that the EU should have a "democratic" vote in whether or not Spain should be permitted to leave!

and you call us hypocrites.

https://wimminz.wordpress.com/2017/09/29/the-spanish-fly-in-the-ointment/

Blogger Chent October 01, 2017 2:08 PM  

Bullshit. The people are sovereign. States exist to facilitate the people and their needs and desires. When a state becomes destructive to those ends, it loses its legitimacy.

(This is BS. No state exists to facilitate the people and their needs and desires, but the needs and desires of the elite. You have been brainwashed, man. But I will take it as a true and I will speak within the democratic delusion)

Yes, the people. Not less than 50% of the people.

Look, there are two ways for a region A to get independence from a country B:

1) The elites of A agree with the elites of B to go to independence (a referendum is nice, but it is not mandatory). This would be the Czechoslovakia model (which was successful) or the Scottish model (which was not).

2) The elites of A break the law of country B, assume all the consequences of breaking this law and they create a new legality. This is the American model (not only US but also Latin America).

Catalan secessionist want to try a third model

They break the law of country A and when the country A enforces its law, they play victim. They think that whining and complaining, country A will give them the independence.

Good luck with that.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 01, 2017 2:09 PM  

Chent wrote:Because things are not that simple. The people that want to go are less than 50%. The other 50% are afraid to express themselves even if their workplace (I have close friends in this situation). You don't need majority when you have the power and the will to impose it (as with secessionists or Hitler)

If secessionists were not opressors, they would let have a public debate about the pros and cons about independence. If they had good arguments, people would choose independence.

If the Spanish were not the oppressor, and if the facts were what you claim them to be, the Spanish would have let the Catalans actually hold their vote, under strict supervision, of course, to prevent vote fraud.
The observable fact that they are afraid of the vote taking place puts the lie to your narrative.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 01, 2017 2:11 PM  

"You don't need majority when you have the power and the will to impose it (as with secessionists or Hitler)"

Now you're thinking, Chent. By the same measure, you don't need a majority to keep Catalonia part of Spain when you've got the power and the will to militarily impose it on them.

Whether or not 50%+ of Catalonians want to secede is hearsay. The ones who have the balls to step up and speak up are saying they want to, and the people who aren't stepping up or speaking up are the silent b****es who are allowing (and thus omissively assenting to) what is happening to them.

Blogger Chent October 01, 2017 2:15 PM  

@NobodyExpects

"There is quite the sophomoric know-it-all attitude, on top of that."

It's because they are American. In the United States the fight for status is paramount and this goes against humility (which is seen as a weakness so it's a loss of status). This has Calvinist roots because the founders of the American societies were Puritan, that is, Calvinist.

No man wants to say "I don't know about this thing" because this is losing status. Every man projects himself as know-it-all, self-sufficient, above-everybody-else with intellectual arrogance only matched with his ignorance.

I think it must be tiring trying to be always pretending one is a mega-man, instead of a human being, but it is the way it is (it is they way American women want their men, too).

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 2:16 PM  

Sophomoric indeed.

Anonymous Yann October 01, 2017 2:17 PM  

When people want their kids being educated in Spanish, they force them to school them in Catalan. When the Supreme Court says that this is illegal, they break the law.

Those were cases where there was a 2-3 kids, so the school had to create a whole class, teachers included, for two kids.

They indoctrinate children in a false history (where Catalonia has been an independent country)

Catalonia was independent from IXth century on, until it became part of Spain, half millenia later. Of course, it had not exactly the same name, or the very same boundaries, and it was a not a country, because in first place the concept of "country" didn't exist back then. But it was there:

https://infogalactic.com/info/History_of_Catalonia#From_late_antiquity_to_feudalism

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 01, 2017 2:18 PM  

Chent
They break the law of country A and when the country A enforces its law, they play victim. They think that whining and complaining, country A will give them the independence.

Worked for India.

Dial back your indignation to about 9.5 and maybe you can discuss this in 4 GW terms, rather than hissy-fitting.

Anonymous NobodyExpects_ October 01, 2017 2:21 PM  

@Chent, yes, you explained it to me some days ago. I know a number of Americans, mostly military or ex-military, and most of them lack this kind of one-upmanship, and generally appear smarter. Some of them even are.

Anonymous Ages October 01, 2017 2:21 PM  

This is some really delicious stuff. Let's see the pretzel logic as CA or NY or various other locales decide to go their own way

I wish to God they would. Not even joking.

Blogger Chent October 01, 2017 2:22 PM  

Now you're thinking, Chent. By the same measure, you don't need a majority to keep Catalonia part of Spain when you've got the power and the will to militarily impose it on them.

See my last comments about two ways of obtaining independence. Crying and whining is not a valid way.


Whether or not 50%+ of Catalonians want to secede is hearsay.

No. The last regional elections Catalan secessionist parties got less than 50% of the vote.

The last "referendum" about the independence (another joke like this one) obtained less than 50% of votes in favor of independence.

Polls made by third-parties also give these figures.

This is what I was talking to NobodyExpects. The Dunning-Krugger effect. You speak about Catalonia with ignorance + arrogance.

The ones who have the balls to step up and speak up are saying they want to, and the people who aren't stepping up or speaking up are the silent b****es who are allowing (and thus omissively assenting to) what is happening to them.

It's easy to speak your mind when you only repeat the slogans of power. Think anti-nazi people in times of Hitler. People who expressed publicly their support of the Nazi regime weren't braver than anti-nazis. They had nothing to lose, while anti-nazis had.

Blogger Chent October 01, 2017 2:24 PM  

@NobodyExpect. Yes, of course, there are exceptions.

Think that this military man had natural status because of their position. They didn't have to fake status while pretending they are smarter than everybody else.

Anonymous Ages October 01, 2017 2:28 PM  

But hey, there are some boxes with a hole, so it must be democracy

They needn’t have bothered with a referendum. America didn’t secede from the British Empire by means of a referendum. And most historians peg the contemporary support at 20-30% tops.

Lawful representatives of interested parties do just as well.

Blogger Chent October 01, 2017 2:29 PM  

They break the law of country A and when the country A enforces its law, they play victim. They think that whining and complaining, country A will give them the independence.

Worked for India.


Great find. You are right.

Well, let's see if it succeeds now. I bet it does not.

Blogger Chent October 01, 2017 2:31 PM  

@Ages

They needn’t have bothered with a referendum. America didn’t secede from the British Empire by means of a referendum. And most historians peg the contemporary support at 20-30% tops.

Exactly. But they want eat their cake and eat it too. They want to challenge the Spanish government and, if they fail (they know they will), they want to keep their cushy jobs within Spanish legality. It's yes but no.

It boils down to that, really.

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