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Monday, November 20, 2017

Game theory and civic nationalism

Tipsy explains how logic dictates that civic nationalism is intrinsically doomed to failure in any multicultural society.
Civic Nationalism is doomed to fail in a multicultural society because it represents an unstable pareto-optimal equilibrium of the game of resource optimization through democratic politics. The non-cooperative Nash equilibrium, i.e., everyone out for their own group, becomes more stable when a democratic political system is overwhelmed by disparate ethnic groups.

For those inclined to read further about the distinction between these two equilibria, here's an example of game that admits both types of equilibria. Suppose we have two players, A and B, who are playing a croquet game on a level field. Both players have a croquet mallet that can hit a ball exactly one foot in any direction and they get to hit it exactly once per round of the game. For each round, Player A is rewarded $1 for each foot the ball goes North and player B is rewarded $1 for each foot the ball goes West.

They both start the game willing to cooperate, and thus they decide to employ the Pareto-optimal solution, so they both hit the ball to the Northwest. They ball will go 2 feet Northwest and both player A and B will both get $1.41 (i.e., round(100*sqrt(2))/100).

Now, suppose in the next round, player A hits the ball to the Northwest as agreed upon, but player B decides to no longer cooperate. After player A hits the ball, player B hits it due West. Player A ends up with $0.71 and Player B gets $1.71 for the round.

Player A then gets pissed, and decides not to cooperate. So, the next round he uses a Nash strategy and hits the ball North and the still uncooperative Player B hits it West. They both end up with $1 for the round.

Note that the Pareto-optimal (cooperative) equilibrium yields the most money for both, but it is leaves each of the players vulnerable to the other cheating. The Nash-optimal (non-cooperative) equilibrium leaves both with less money, but structures the game in such a way that minimizes the consequences of the other cheating.

The Left has been using a Nash strategy for years, and "Conservatives" have been duped or shamed into using a Pareto strategy. The alt-Right is finally saying "Ok, you want to play that way, we will too." This pisses the Left off, because they liked the marginal advantage that cheating in a cooperative game gave them. The alt-Right doesn't care, goes full on Nash, because it understands the "game" is fundamentally non-cooperative now.
The scary thing is that the situation is even worse than he explains it. There have actually been THREE players, a Pareto player, a Nash player, and an anti-Pareto player. The anti-Pareto player has been playing to either a) hurt the Pareto player or b) help the Nash player, as he has no interest in money, but simply wants the psychic reward of achieving either (a) or (b).

What has changed is that a new Nash player has entered the field. This modeling is probably too complicated to bother with, especially since any numbers assigned would be arbitrary to the point of complete fiction, but regardless, both Tipsy's original description as well as the more complicated version suffice to demonstrate that civic nationalism could never survive once sufficient Nash players were on the field.

There is nothing cooperative about US politics now. This is both an observable reality as well as a logically dictated consequence. Civic nationalism is now every bit as discredited and thoroughly disproven as communism, and any intellectually honest man will have to admit as much. Ironically, most of those still attempting to disprove it will achieve little more than revealing that they are actually Nash players hiding under a false Pareto front.

To sum up the discussion from last night in the other thread, it is observably better for a nation to be atomic-bombed, militarily defeated, and occupied by a foreign power than for it to adopt civic nationalism and mass immigration.

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117 Comments:

Anonymous Rocklea November 20, 2017 5:32 AM  

"Now lets all pull together as a team and do it my way."

- Every dictator ever.

Anonymous map November 20, 2017 5:38 AM  

This, in fact, is the exact reason why free trade fails in a world with distinct sovereign states. Each sovereign has a chance to maximize gain by going to a Nash equilibrium while the US has been juicing their returns with a Pareto-optimal equilibrium.

Anonymous Icicle November 20, 2017 5:46 AM  

The Left has been using a Nash strategy for years, and "Conservatives" have been duped or shamed into using a Pareto strategy. The alt-Right is finally saying "Ok, you want to play that way, we will too." This pisses the Left off, because they liked the marginal advantage that cheating in a cooperative game gave them. The alt-Right doesn't care, goes full on Nash, because it understands the "game" is fundamentally non-cooperative now."

Charlie with the football. Nice.

What has changed is that a new Nash player has entered the field. This modeling is probably too complicated to bother with,

I'll screw around with some models.

Blogger Al From Bay Shore November 20, 2017 5:48 AM  

Civic nationalism in a multi-racial and multi-cultural society is the prettiest lie ever told. This lie has become a dogma that has blinded well-intentioned people to the definition of the term "posterity".

It's been tough to understand this. I'm coming to a realization that my people were merely along for the ride and that the saying "When in Rome do what Romans do" is truth.

Blogger VD November 20, 2017 5:54 AM  

It's been tough to understand this.

Another irony is that it is people's pride in their adopted superidentity that makes it difficult for them to accept the fact of identity politics.

"Identity politics can't be true because I am too a real American! And we Americans have a moral obligation to let in more immigrants because my grandparents came here to escape the Potato Famine/Holocaust/Killing Fields/poverty!"

Anonymous Magna Carta November 20, 2017 5:59 AM  

Congress should immediately prohibit immigration from countries which do not obey traffic signs.

Anonymous Icicle November 20, 2017 6:01 AM  

Two things seem to be hardwired right down into the nervous system itself: religion and race.

Curious.

Anonymous Magna Carta November 20, 2017 6:14 AM  

@3 icicle said "Charlie with the football. Nice." or Charlie bit my finger!

Blogger Wuzzums Fuzzums November 20, 2017 6:17 AM  

Al From Bay Shore wrote:Civic nationalism in a multi-racial and multi-cultural society is the prettiest lie ever told.

I wouldn't call it a lie, if the analogy holds then civic nationalism stands as achievable if they Pareto all the way. The moment one race play the identity politics game it's over, civic nationalism can no longer be achieved and we're in that state already. We've been in that state for years/decades without us knowing so player B is far further North than player A is West. The ball needs to be hit South-West a couple of times to even the score a little... without player B noticing, of course.

Blogger Al From Bay Shore November 20, 2017 6:26 AM  

@9 I agree. Civic nationalism works as long as everyone is on the same page but everyone must be of the same culture (commonly held values and beliefs). The hard part to address is that "race" thing. For the time being though, I'll still cling to the "Great Society" and integration destroyed the Black neighborhood argument. I'm gonna need a minute to sort these things out before I raise meaningful questions about the things to which I "cling" - I've not finished my coffee yet.

Blogger The Observer November 20, 2017 6:26 AM  

I wouldn't call it a lie, if the analogy holds then civic nationalism stands as achievable if they Pareto all the way.

And communism would work just fine if humans behaved just like bees and ants.

Blogger 1337kestrel November 20, 2017 6:29 AM  

And of course, playing a cooperative game cooperatively requires both the IQ to understand game theory and low time preference.

Anonymous trev006 November 20, 2017 6:35 AM  

Given that the alt-Right generally specifies that mass repatriations are necessary, would it be more accurate to describe them as an anti-Nash (and pro-Pareto) player than a new Nash player?

I am not trying to quantify the specific impact of the Alt-Right, because that way lies an analogy breakdown. But in what direction would you hit the ball? Serious question.

I would just hit North. MAGA, baby.

Blogger Chris Lutz November 20, 2017 6:36 AM  

Instead of "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner," civic nationalism is the sheep voting to be the dinner.

OpenID markstoval November 20, 2017 6:43 AM  

I agree with Tipsy and the examples/explanation given.

I also think there is more involved. Simply each nation must look to protect its own members first. (And I mean nation as in tribe and not nation-State in the modern sense.)

The free market allows everyone to compete-cooperate and the total wealth of all will be far greater than in any other way. But recall that each member is in it for himself and his tribe --- each selfishly playing the game for the benefit of himself and his family.

I think we would all be better off with each tribe apart from the others with a given homeland. I also think that we could all cooperate a lot better between tribes if that were the case. "distance make the heart grow fonder"

The welfare state has been the greatest moral hazard and the biggest draw to invaders. It is time to stop paying the welfare class and let them start finding their own way.

Anonymous Magna Carta November 20, 2017 6:43 AM  

The problem I have with civic nationalists is that they have no end game to limit immigration. I've asked them to give me a number of what percentage they are willing to reduce the white population? It doesn't enter their mind. My answer (for the USA) is somewhere between 80-90 percent - which is more or less pre-1965.

Anonymous Contango November 20, 2017 6:55 AM  

VD, can you clarify who is who among the players? "There has been a third player, an anti-Pareto player." Is that (((Player C)))? And "there is a new player on the field?" Is that the Alt-Right?

Blogger wreckage November 20, 2017 7:02 AM  

@10 a society can handle one minority, even two, but not much more, and when the combined minorities become intrinsic to forming a democratic majority, you've got a Middle Eastern Tyrant problem.

You know, where people prefer a tyrant because a democratic majority for That Other Tribe is actually more unbearable and dangerous a prospect than a despot without a strong majority.

State ineffectiveness becomes necessary for component group survival, and national resources get pulled out of wealth and defense and into internal policing, counter-insurgency, and status displays.

Blogger wreckage November 20, 2017 7:04 AM  

@17, ingroup self-interest isn't anti-pareto, it's consistently Nash; but the anti-American alliance is decidedly anti-pareto.

Blogger Phillip George November 20, 2017 7:13 AM  

ergo multi ethnic can survive in mono cultic.
Viva Jesus Christ.

someone, just someone will get this: "Parry's Jerusalem, sings
"do it here, do it everywhere".

I'll do Jerusalem wherever I live because the mission is take the world.

Jules Verne the Frenchman couldn't conceive a greater nobility than the English Gentleman, because......43 years later in the midst of the Great War Parry could write Jerusalem.

All someone ever had to be was merely right.



Blogger JACIII November 20, 2017 7:14 AM  

Wuzzums Fuzzums wrote:Al From Bay Shore wrote:Civic nationalism in a multi-racial and multi-cultural society is the prettiest lie ever told.
The ball needs to be hit South-West a couple of times to even the score a little... without player B noticing, of course.


The ball doesn't need anything. Especially when it's Player A's ball, Player A's land, Player A's mallet, Player A's beer, and Player A's brisket.

Blogger Phillip George November 20, 2017 7:18 AM  

as with Cricket, the English invented civility. Just use the same formula.

Blogger JACIII November 20, 2017 7:20 AM  

The Civic Nationalist's rebuttal:

But melting pot! There is no Player A! There is no Player B!
(Pay no attention to that knife in your back, Player A.)
We're all American! The American Dream!
(Oww! Who stuck that knife in my back?!)

Anonymous Rocklea November 20, 2017 7:23 AM  

"as with Cricket, the English invented civility. Just use the same formula."

Zimbabwe still plays Cricket at least.

Blogger wreckage November 20, 2017 7:24 AM  

@23: For far too many, their honest statement would be: "I don't care how many of the ethnics die in the coming civil war / unrest / social breakdown, so long as they're available for me to obtain social status in my ongoing status war with that other white guy over there."

Blogger Al From Bay Shore November 20, 2017 7:29 AM  

@21 The definition of that term in the Preamble, "posterity". Among my friends, most of whom are Leftist/ SJW, one lives in Japan. I've never heard him speak of a need for that society to make changes but I have observed that he aligns with that faction which seeks to change America. That is, to me, a contradiction. Perhaps all civics classes in our high schools should be made into "American Nationalism" courses. Of course, such a change can only work if "World History" were replaced with Western history. Back in the day it was like that then the educators attached "global studies" course work. Soon, it was merged (converged) with Western history and became "World History".

Anonymous Looking Glass November 20, 2017 7:32 AM  

@25 wreckage

The NeoCons are the most obvious ones, but most of the Elites are still pissed at the Revolution for preventing them from being a Duke or Earl. They're pretty much 1800s Imperialists that refused the memo that it failed really badly.

You can see it in the way they react to the most things. They love the idea of the EU, another Imperialist venture. They work hard to erase the American Revolution and everything good that it spawned. They hate that they never had control of Rural Whites. And they directly treat non-Americans as serfs to be exploited for their own end.

They display all of the negative traits of an aristocracy in an Empire. This is why they virtue signal so hard, as it's just an echo of Victorianism.

Blogger Wanderer November 20, 2017 7:33 AM  

JACIII wrote:But melting pot!
You can't throw feces into a melting pot and expect a good stew.

Anonymous gritsntime November 20, 2017 7:39 AM  

They continue to eat their own. This ties into the whole game theory, eventually, ALL races will consolidate in a free market society, absent state force. That's about the only thing Libertarians should ACTUALLY be seeing and talking about.

https://twitter.com/zinziclemmons/status/932200880975286273/photo/1

Blogger LP9 November 20, 2017 7:41 AM  

9 agreed.

Wow this isn't difficult at all, Vox has covered why civ nat'l has problems.

I believe its a short term to long term fail as that worldview is not consistent with our current era or reality or even knowledge base, civ nat'lism is not going to work.

Blogger VD November 20, 2017 7:42 AM  

VD, can you clarify who is who among the players? "There has been a third player, an anti-Pareto player." Is that (((Player C)))? And "there is a new player on the field?" Is that the Alt-Right?

Player 1: white American Center and Right. Civic nationalists. Pareto.
Player 2: white American Left. Anti-Pareto.
Player 3: fake Americans. Nash. All of them, from the Irish and Italians to the Mexicans and Africans.
Player 4: white American Alt-Right. Nash.

Blogger wreckage November 20, 2017 7:51 AM  

@31 Pretty much how I see it. Almost nobody but the Left is actually playing with the goal of destroying their own infrastructure, but that doesn't change the fact that massive population replacement and ethnic conflict is the tool the Left are using to do it, and it must be resisted or reversed in all nations.

Anonymous ZhukovG November 20, 2017 7:52 AM  

@VD: And during the last match (2016), Player 1 saw what Player 4 was doing, winked at 2 and 3, then said, "Oopsie, I seem to have 'accidentally' put some 'English' on the ball".

Blogger Al From Bay Shore November 20, 2017 7:54 AM  

@33 That was spot on!

Anonymous LemonGrass November 20, 2017 7:55 AM  

Wait that last part. Is vox referring to the fact that japanese after a nuclear holocaust and foreign occupation still had a lower crime rate then black millionaires today. There by making the japs less opressed then black millionairs.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 20, 2017 8:02 AM  

Well if you are white you cannot even ask what the protected classes can do for you.

Blogger dc.sunsets November 20, 2017 8:13 AM  

@2 Map, "free trade" fails ultimately whenever it involves people who are predisposed to see "getting over on someone" a virtue. The only people who could imagine the love-in that is free trade are those who posit that each of the world's citizens is wise, intelligent and sees cooperation as a virtue.

In sales, everyone talks about win-win, but the fact is that many (if not most of the world's peoples) consider leaving you ANYTHING as a failure. Optimal is THEY GET IT ALL.

Geeze, I'm retrospectively embarrassed by my earlier libertarianist naivete.

Blogger VD November 20, 2017 8:14 AM  

Wait that last part. Is vox referring to the fact that japanese after a nuclear holocaust and foreign occupation still had a lower crime rate then black millionaires today. There by making the japs less opressed then black millionairs.

No. It has nothing to do with blacks. I am referring to the fact that white stupidity about civic nationalism and immigration is more self-destructive than Japan losing the War in the Pacific in highly catastrophic terms.

Blogger dienw November 20, 2017 8:15 AM  

Magna Carta wrote:Congress should immediately prohibit immigration from countries which do not obey traffic signs.

New Jersey is not a country.

Blogger Resident Moron™ November 20, 2017 8:17 AM  

"... it is observably better for a nation to be atomic-bombed, militarily defeated, and occupied by a foreign power than for it to adopt civic nationalism and mass immigration."


The Germans, sadly, are trying to do both (sans the nukes, natch).

The Japanese, having experienced the former, have wisely decided to forgo the latter.

Anonymous Looking Glass November 20, 2017 8:19 AM  

@37 dc.sunsets

At some level, it's a cultural development & trust issue. But large amounts of societal trust is a Christian trait. It doesn't exist outside of Christian groups because it's a thing that Christians do. Other cultures have replicated something like it, but they do it through rather oppressive cultural means.

That's a deeper issue to this "Game". The normal people within the Western cultures understand you "don't do X" because there are deeper consequences. When your leadership is corrupted and converged, they lack that self-restraint principle because they currently live in la-la land. There's a reason why they will never understand the concept of "this far & no further" until well after the bullet has passed through their skulls.

Anonymous Pitcrew November 20, 2017 8:22 AM  

There are also gradations between Pareto (cooperative), Nash (non-cooperative) and Anti-Pareto. Cooperative behavior is a finite resource, and like any resource it gets exhausted. With more than two players, it gets unstable fast. You could think of Pareto as "giving a f*ck" and when that runs out, ZFG. This is straight from Schelling himself.

Blogger RC November 20, 2017 8:23 AM  

Back in the day I was forced to participate in psychology experiments as part of a freshman class. One experiment involved two players, each of us with a bingo-style card that had numbers. We were to negotiate with each other and we'd each be paid the amount on the card. I immediately suggested we show each other our cards, accept the highest total, and split the total evenly. The other party agreed and his individual amount was significantly higher. We were paid by check and the other person (who, as you've likely figured out, was part of the experiment) only had a dollar cash, shorting me several dollars.

The experiment was to evaluate how I'd react to being shorted, a game that has turned out to be an accurate depiction of today's national policy.

Blogger dc.sunsets November 20, 2017 8:26 AM  

The mask is coming off, but I still aver that only the dullest tools will fail to realize what's happening within a few years.

The borrow-to-spend wealth creation machine worked GREAT while interest rates were in decline, such that each new IOU simply got more valuable with time.

That stopped a year ago.

Since that time, borrow-to-spend as wealth creation limped along even as the "GDP benefit" of spending borrowed money fell in concert with the declining velocity of money.

The entire delusion of ameliorating racism, sexism and all the attendant "phobias" rested on a belief in unlimited resources, on "we can afford it, so we MUST succor the world's suffering."

Once borrow-to-spend breaks down for good, Americans by the tens of millions will be thrown out of work. For four or five decades government borrowing-to-spend catalyzed growth in industries like Medical Services, Higher Ed., the good ole' MIC and the FIRE economy. Ninety percent or more of those jobs depend on synthetic demand, demand that will EVAPORATE when Uncle Sammy can't afford to slap down the Mastercard.

The transition to this has already begun. The KKKKrazy Glue that bonded the Coalition of the Parasites in Congress is dissolving as they begin to fight each other over the gibsmedats.

When the monetary/financial/economic crisis begins to approach boil, every parasitic identity group will declare war on whites so openly that reframing among WHITES will be inevitable. The Alt-Right will BE the Right, and it will BE where whites of all ethnicities will converge, herded there openly.

This time, when the cities burn and the riots start, there will be NO APPEASEMENT. While the military may be a lousy agent for putting down unrest, its disutility will cause whites who demand order to enter DIY mode.

We will live to see checkpoints on highways manned by Joe Citizen, and any parasites attempting to raid suburbs and exurbs will be driven back into their ghettos to reap the fruits of their dysfunctions grown these past decades under the artificial stimulation of appeasement handouts.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 20, 2017 8:29 AM  

The #2s being sent into meltdowns is fun, a lot more fun that the usual #1's lectures on civility and intellectual gobbly gook that no one listens to anymore.

Anonymous Pitcrew November 20, 2017 8:53 AM  

@40
Japan was only nuked twice. The invasion was an occupation, not a full on assualt. Had the nuclear attack been larger, Japanese society likely wouldn't have recovered the same way.

Blogger Brad Matthews November 20, 2017 9:13 AM  

And the VFM went to Vox and said, "Please explain to us the parable of the white and Nash"

Anonymous Looking Glass November 20, 2017 9:16 AM  

@46 Pitcrew

The Invasion of Japan would have been the bloodiest fighting the USA had undertaken since Antietam. Tokyo would have been relatively easy to capture, but if they didn't get the leadership, Japan could have run guerrilla operations for a decade. "Japan" as land mass it basically the Balkan on the Ocean with a few chunks of flat space that the bigger cities exist in. 30 nukes later and the Japanese would have still been fighting.

Related to Vox's player breakdown, another victory. AfD's haul in the German elections has broken the ability for Merkel to form a government.

Blogger Groggy November 20, 2017 9:24 AM  

This would be a great topic for a Voxiversity video or Darkstream (if possible).

This analysis of the white left as anti-Pareto confirms that the white left serves evil, whether consciously or not. It is truly disgusting to think about, especially because the more damage they do, the better they feel about it and the more worldly praise and adulation they are awarded - as if they are God's gift.

It is a sickening phenomenon.

Anonymous Simon in London November 20, 2017 9:25 AM  

Civic nationalism is great... for an ethnically homogenous society. Which is where it developed.

Blogger Groggy November 20, 2017 9:27 AM  

And the VFM went to Vox and said, "Please explain to us the parable of the white and Nash"

And the Supreme Dark Lord spaketh, saying unto his flock the vile minions, that observably preferable it doth be to receiveth unto thine heads a bombardment of fissile materials than to adopteth the curse of strangers in thine lands.

Anonymous Aaron November 20, 2017 9:29 AM  

Very, very true.

It is really foolish to see politics as anything other than the will to power of competing groups.

The desire to play "fair" is already a sign of a weakening of the will to power.

Those with an unbroken will to power want to win at all costs, not play fair - and they will akways, always, defeat those who play fair, simply because it is a rule that those with the strongest will to power will win, all else being roughly equal (altho will to power has frequently triumphed over much smarter and more capable people who simply didn't care as much. Intense caring is everything)

So far, this is standard Nietzchean analysis. N knew very well that "fairness" is always a weakening of the desire for power.

Of course, recognizing that the world is merely a naked war for power, where victory rarely goes to the most worthy but simply to those who want power most, one can turn away from the world.

This is the religious position, and it is the only respectable alternative to competing for power in the world.

People like Rod Dreher who sort of want power in the world but recoil from doing what is necessary to gain and keep it are are not worthy of respect.

He would be worthy of respect if he had the courage to draw the logical conclusion and surrender power and withdraw from the world.

But no, he wants power, just not enough to do what it takes, and wishes everyone played fair .i.e, wanted power as much as he does, but no more.

Such people are neither fish nor fowl, and lack the courage to take a stand.





This is why Rod Dreher is so

Blogger Doom November 20, 2017 9:31 AM  

I suspect nothing presented was unknown to our elites. They realized the costs and consequences from the beginning but also realized, if they could get a cut from all quarters, using the rich(er), more productive, whites as drones by keeping them in check, like economic Nietzschian supermen, they could have our cake and eat theirs. They are still rolling in it, if they are realizing beyond a certain point, it fails. Now they appear as a vampire sucking on a corpse, buying houses for hundreds of millions, art off and on for ghastly sums, gold and sometimes silver, and probably gems and jewlry, trying to find something that will have some value when it finally bottoms and then settles, well and lubrication for the dry times between.

Blogger James Dixon November 20, 2017 9:31 AM  

> There have actually been THREE players, a Pareto player, a Nash player, and an anti-Pareto player.

More like a biased referee doing the measurements.

He ignores the option of the players hitting the ball east and south. Neither player makes any money. Anger can make people do stupid things.

> Is vox referring to the fact...

Compare Detroit and Hiroshima.

Blogger pyrrhus November 20, 2017 9:33 AM  

Otherwise known as the Prisoners Dilemma, with a minimax solution. The only way you can avoid being screwed by the other player, or players, is to pursue the solution that guarantees you the minimum non-cooperative payoff....

Anonymous Avalanche November 20, 2017 9:34 AM  

@25 For far too many, their honest statement would be: "I don't care how many of the ethnics die in the coming civil war / unrest / social breakdown, so long as they're ..."

... NO LONGER in MY nation's territory! Chip 'em and ship 'em, buy-bye!

The lefties are blood-thirsty (or perhaps it's blood-unaware?) for what's coming? I am also blood-thirsty for the protection of my people! And I am armed and trained, you idiot snowflakes!!

Anonymous Avalanche November 20, 2017 9:36 AM  

@26 "Back in the day it was like that then the educators attached "global studies" course work. Soon, it was merged (converged) with Western history and became "World History"."


And thus, the "march through the institutions." This didn't just "happen" -- it was war by other means. (And MAN! Have we ever been losing (cause: not fighting!)

Anonymous Avalanche November 20, 2017 9:47 AM  

@35 "nuclear holocaust and foreign occupation still had a lower crime rate then black millionaires today. There by making the japs less opressed then black millionairs."

Sorta OT,but: I am SO unhappy that the God Emperor "saved from China" those damned shoplifting negros! Once AGAIN, "we" excuse criminality and trespass all over the laws and more's of other countries (and our own country and laws, and our own nation and race and more's) on behalf of uncivilized animals! "Yes, these uncivilized animals tried to steal, in YOUR country -- but they're (fake!) Americans, so we're blowing you off." I HATE THAT!!

Anonymous Pitcrew November 20, 2017 9:49 AM  

@48
Very True. Modern Japan though, would be covered in Fukushima type meltdowns so a large portion of it would be uninhabitable for some time.

The Antietam reference hits home, one of my ancestors legs is still in that cornfield.

Anonymous vfm #0202 November 20, 2017 10:27 AM  

Dayumn I love this blog!

Anonymous vfm #0202 November 20, 2017 10:32 AM  

It could be REEEfully amusing to promote to a wider audience the well known optimal response pattern for the iterated prisoner's dilemma.

Who's up for some tit for tat?

Anonymous Grayman November 20, 2017 10:34 AM  

@57 Avalanche,

The optics were YUGE for trump. He got to be the Hero and the real character of the ghetto ball players stood on its on merit!

Anonymous Grayman November 20, 2017 10:38 AM  

If nothing else Game theory analysis is a good example of why women, as a group, should not be in leadership positions. They process emotionally first logically second. As a result they are trivially gamed by other players when its logical decision making versus emotional decision making.

Anonymous Grayman November 20, 2017 10:47 AM  

wreckage wrote:@31 Pretty much how I see it. Almost nobody but the Left is actually playing with the goal of destroying their own infrastructure, but that doesn't change the fact that massive population replacement and ethnic conflict is the tool the Left are using to do it, and it must be resisted or reversed in all nations.



What is so insidious about it is that a large % of the left don't intend to destroy anything, they are just processing the world emotionally, following the feminine imperative.
Its almost like they a "feelz" zombies.
Its a small % of the elite left that actually want to destroy things, the useful leftist hordes are just "feelz" zombies stumbling about....must consume "feelz" and generally attack anything that gets in the way of those feelz.
The zombie apocalypse already happened and we are living int he middle of it. Once things go hot you will have the dusky horde "fast zombies" and the white soyboy leftist "slow zombie".

Blogger tz November 20, 2017 10:50 AM  

We need Civic Nash-ionalism.
This puts terms on the problem to focus it. About the second time the Nash player went west, my mallet would slip and his head would go a foot to the north. But that's what the Alt-Right is doing.
Part of even the Pareto rules can be to keep the Nashing out.

Or to take Vox's first sentence, A necessary (I don't think sufficient) condition for civic nationalism is uniculturalism.

An interesting story from Poland (I think Molyneux) is where a globalist Pole could actually discuss the differences with a UK/pan-Nationalist, or other Polish Nationalists. In the UK, you will be attacked for being a Nationalist, and the globalists don't even try to argue a rational case, but the globalists are the representatives of other cultures.

Anonymous Catholic Knight November 20, 2017 10:51 AM  

>> It is really foolish to see politics as anything other than the will to power of competing groups. The desire to play "fair" is already a sign of a weakening of the will to power.

This is alt-retardism in all it’s fascist glory. Bannon or Spencer couldn’t have said this better. So could Machiavelli and Hitler.

The true conservative rejects power in all it’s forms. We choose to throw the Ring into Mt.Doom.

The very essence of conservatism is a total rejection of any will to power.

Blogger darkdoc November 20, 2017 10:54 AM  

Civic Nationalism is:

1. Feminine
2. Gamma (if I can't get laid, I can at least get female praise; plus the warren will include me).
3. Feeling based government/political policy.
4. Anti-Christian disguised as Neo-Christian/ Fake Christian.

Game theory can not make that work, not ever (though Tipsy's explanation is very good to read).

Anonymous Just another commenter November 20, 2017 10:56 AM  

Of course, you *could* use your mallet upside the head of #2 as an example for #3 to ruminate on, with a terse "please get with the program... or do you need another, more personal demonstration?" Not entirely sure what that metaphor would look like in the real world (Trump? Trumpslide 2020? Gulag 2.0?), but the sooner it happens the better off we'll all be.

Anonymous Grayman November 20, 2017 11:02 AM  

@65 darkdoc

The female/feminine imperative is one of submission, the female survives by submitting to the dominant group be that a husband, or a conqueror. Either way she passes on her genetics and its a biological WIN.

The male imperative is one of dominance and conquest. A man only succeeds biologically by being able to successfully submit a female and gain control of necessary resources through dominance or conquest.

For a society to survive the female imperative must be dominated by the males of the society or they will turn outward.... i.e. the current invasion.

Blogger tz November 20, 2017 11:06 AM  

Another problem is the hubris of the Civic Nationalists.

The Alt-Right is at least recognizing that man is fallen, including themselves, and part of that buried differences is tribalism. Man and Woman he created them, but he also created them with different appearance and languages.

Civic Nationalists are the globalists-lite who see to undo Babel. The Globalists are willing to do it violently and for utilitarian reasons, mostly pure greed.

To put the Civic Nationalist more profound evil in context, they assume "The Proposition" will be self evident to every person if just explained well enough, so they will drop their old culture and tribal loyalties and join the Jeffersonian democracy, learn English (undoing Babel).

Nowhere in there is Christ, and only he and his church are capable of changing hearts and minds, but you have to repent and accept Christ first. And he and his church never set to undo Babel. The closest were/are the Catholics with Latin, but they never imposed the learning of Latin on the non-clergy.

There is a similar hubris with their NAP and other nonsense, and an unwillingness to even address the question of unconverted barbarians honestly. That's why they have become merely an Atrium for the alt-Right.

The alt-Right are the Christans to the old Pharisees who have the law down and details as a path to God and prosperity. The alt-Right is saying "the Law" itself does not suffice, that your will and heart must be in it. Pharisees say hate everyone but obey every detail. Christians say love everyone, God first and obedience follows naturally and easily.

The alt-Right has exposed the modern civic Pharisees that say having a document and muh principles is enough. The alt-Right doesn't take pride in "the Law", equality, Constitution, they take pride in their Nation that through Providence produced it.
The Civic Pharisees has multiculturalism under the dead-letter living document Constitution (who is anyone to insist it says what the clear meaning of the words imply).
The Alt-Right believes in "One NATION under God, with Liberty and Justice for All" (members of the Nation).

Anonymous Grayman November 20, 2017 11:09 AM  

@VD @66 Just another commenter

Player 1: white American Center and Right. Civic nationalists. Pareto.
Player 2: white American Left. Anti-Pareto.
Player 3: fake Americans. Nash. All of them, from the Irish and Italians to the Mexicans and Africans.
Player 4: white American Alt-Right. Nash.


I'd suggest its even worse then base assumption of players 1 through 4.
Player 3 is playing for a different currency, for "feelz" instead of $. As such their actions have no direct feedback from the action-reaction series that correlates to the players using "$". The anti-pareto segment breaks the feedback loop in a game theory equilibrium.
The alt-right using their own tactics against them now provides feedback in their currency "feelz" hence the outrage, they went from feedback free action to suddenly getting negative feedback from their game strategy.

Blogger tz November 20, 2017 11:10 AM  

Edit:
There is a similar hubris with their NAP and other nonsense
Should be
There is a similar hubris with Libertarians and their NAP and other nonsense

Libertarians try to minimize the Government but be multicultural or ignore culture (even when most cultures aren't compatible).

Interestingly, the Constitutionalist Christians vary a bit, e.g. Evangelicals, Mormons, and Catholics, and even some minorities, but all are conservative and unicultural.

OpenID dreadilkzee November 20, 2017 11:15 AM  

Only the Ruth principle will allow foreigners to become "American".

Ruth 1:
15 And she said, “See, your sister-in-law has gone back to her people and to her gods; return after your sister-in-law.” 16 But Ruth said, “Do not urge me to leave you or to return from following you. For where you go I will go, and where you lodge I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God my God. 17 Where you die I will die, and there will I be buried. May the Lord do so to me and more also if anything but death parts me from you.”

But even then the supplicant has to remember to differ to the American in regards to cultural norms. In general I have only seen this is the more intelligent foreigner who knows they are trying to change culture, not just move some place that has better economic principles.

Blogger Solaire Of Astora November 20, 2017 11:16 AM  

This is why Trump's negotiation/diplomatic style works so well. His negotiations start with a declaration that he wants to hit the ball due north, with the hope of getting the other party to compromise and play along with the Pareto compromise. If or when that eventually breaks down, you know Trump is ready to pivot and start playing by the new set of rules.

For some reason the cuck right is missing something in their cognitive framework. They fear starting from a strong position and working to compromise. They prefer starting with the compromise which shows weakness and dooms them to playing against someone who will immediately start by whacking the ball due west and the old right then refuses to pivot. And if you simply try explaining this to them they become nasty snarky little creatures.

Anonymous Aaron November 20, 2017 11:23 AM  

Of course, if civic nationalism cannot work, then international civic nationalism cannot, either.

There is no chance for international peace.

In other words, if having groups within a society ensures conflict, then by that same logic group logic is inevitable on a global scale.

The alt-right may have the solution for peace within society, but is ushering in a world where conflict between nations is inevitable, by the exact same logic of groups.

Closing our eyes to this, and pretending that in a world of distinct groups all animated by a will to power, peace is possible, is as foolish as the civic nationalists who believe a society composed of distinct groups can be peaceful.

It is the exact same logic of groups, applied globally.

Unlike vox day's fair fantasy, nationalists cannot support each other in the long run, and must eventually come into conflict l, by the logic of groups.

And indeed it is characteristic of nationalists to try and undermine the nationalism of other grouos, as we see jews do to whites, and as whites will begin doing to jews as they become more nationalist.

So what will it be - strife within nations, or between them?

A world at war has been baseline for most of human history, tho it will be way worse now.

To a thinking man, the alt-right cannot deliver us out of our predicament, but can only put out one kind of fire - indeed a most pressing one - only to land us in as great a fire.

Blogger Revelation Means Hope November 20, 2017 11:24 AM  

Here's the deal. The civic nationalists like Dan Davis are perfectly happy getting the $0.41 while the other players get $1.41. Then they are perfectly happy getting the $1 while the other players get $1.

Not realizing that the other players still have massive bank accounts from the many decades of playing with $1.41 vs $0.41. It hasn't been that dramatic, more likely $1.10 vs $0.90. Compounded year over year over year over year.

You wonder why the left has billions of $$$ to fund Soros campaigns and Hillary losses and Jeb Bushes?

Anonymous Jack Amok November 20, 2017 11:27 AM  

Given that the alt-Right generally specifies that mass repatriations are necessary, would it be more accurate to describe them as an anti-Nash (and pro-Pareto) player than a new Nash player?

I think of it similar to how civilized and barbarian men behave.

Q: How does a barbarian treat another man?
A: Barbarically, always.

Q: How does a civilized man treat another man?
A: It depends. If the other man is civilized, he treats him civilly. if the other man is barbaric, he treats him barbarically.

Low trust people are always Nash players, but high trust people have to learn to be Pareto with each other and Nash (or anti-Nash) with the low trust folks.

Civic Nationalists haven't figured that part out yet. Some are the fake Americans playing Nash while pretending to be Pareto, but others are, well, some of just dumb, others are not yet willing to give up the pleasant dream that says you never have to be mean to someone.

Hate absolutely has a purpose. It lets decent, normal people deal with snakes in their midst.

Anonymous Gurpgork November 20, 2017 11:30 AM  

And to make it worse. Player 1 regularly sides with 2 and 3 against 4.

Anonymous Brick Hardslab November 20, 2017 11:44 AM  

I don't see why civic nationalism has to lead to immigration. We had a break of fifty years or more and it worked well. If we had just kept our immigration policy and enforced it we'd be fine. Two hundred million or so people on a vast continent.

It's the urge for the cheaters to bring in ringers that has ruined our nation. Cheaters are by definition not civic nationalists. They are wreckers. And that shows the weakness of civic nationalism, you don't have a test to remove citizenship.

If we didn't let in aliens it wouldn't matter. We wouldn't need it. But since we did it is vital for an honest civic nationalist to adopt a test. When that happens then they'll be serious.

Blogger VD November 20, 2017 12:06 PM  

I don't see why civic nationalism has to lead to immigration. We had a break of fifty years or more and it worked well.

That's a very stupid statement. No, it didn't work well at all. We fought a very bloody civil war. We tore the Constitution apart and established an unconstitutional income tax and an unconstitutional central bank. The "New Americans" lobbied for all of those fifty years to end the break, and they finally succeeded because people like you said, "hey, it worked well, why not?"

When I hear statements like that, it makes me realize that Americans absolutely deserve the Hell that they are going to experience. Just remember, Brick, that you brought this on yourself and your children. Don't you understand? Cheaters are not civic nationalists, civic nationalists are the idiots who permit the cheaters to join the game.

Civic nationalism is not merely a failure, it is straight-up evil in heartwarming, cuddly clothing.

OpenID dreadilkzee November 20, 2017 12:10 PM  

Gurpgork wrote:And to make it worse. Player 1 regularly sides with 2 and 3 against 4.

That is the current Democrat conundrum. They don't have unity. They have minorities banding together for power. There is no Brown skin and Black skin unity. It's all biding time till they one or the other has power. Just look at Compton. Sorry Blacks, you have been evicted.

Blogger Arthur Isaac November 20, 2017 12:37 PM  

The anti-Paretos virtue signal by only hitting the ball southwest. I think the best strategy is to disintegrate the ball and make the rubble bounce to be the southeast until the parasites post interest.

Anonymous Tipsy November 20, 2017 1:01 PM  

So, we can make this a little more interesting by adding more players. Suppose there are 4 players on team A, from a place we'll call Nordmark. Round after round each player happily hits the ball north and they all collect $4 per round, which gives them plenty of cash for vodka and lutefisk and the occasional vacation to sunny Vibristan.

One year, a player from Vibristan decides to join and announces he's playing by team B's rule. They players from A, being cooperative decide that they'll hit the ball 36.9 degrees off north presuming that Vibristani will play cooperatively too. What a wonderful world that would be! The Nordlingers would keep their income the same ($4 per round), while the Vibristani would get $3 per round, which is much better than he'd ever get in Vibristan, for crying out loud.

The thing is, the Vibristani will have none of it, and hits the ball due West. They Nordlingers end up with $3.2 which they have to split 4 ways ($0.80 each) and the Vibristani will have $3.4 all to himself. Wait, that's not how it should work, the Nordlingers grumble, and realize that their theory of the distribution of winnings was flawed from the beginning. (It should have worked! It wasn't implemented correctly! It's never really been tried! It's because evil Monsanto supplied the grass seed for the field!) Nevertheless, the Nordlingers, being members in good standing of the state church of Pareto, they still believe in moral imperative of total cooperation, so they prepare to adjust their angles, still presuming that the Vibristani will cooperate (eventually).

Well, the Vibristani, who can't believe how stupid the Nordlingers are, invites 3 of his friends to join his team. The Nordlingers think - ok, there are 4 of them and 4 of us, so if we all cooperate, we should all hit to the Northwest, and each will receive exactly the same - $1.41 each. Even better than before! Who could resist such a wise, just, and generous plan?!?

Except, for this round the Vibristanis are not statisfied with winning, they want to crush the degenerate infidels and so they all hit the ball South. The Vibristanis still make out fine for the round ($0.71 each - not bad!) while each of the Nordlingers goes $0.29 in the hole.

Shocked that they're losing money and are treated hostilely by the folks *they are just trying to help*, they decide the best thing is not to play croquet with the Vibristanis at all. Too costly. They send in referees to confiscate the mallets they provided them, but the croquet field has now become a no-go zone, and the referees return all bloodied from their attempt to recover them.

The game ends with a piece of Nordmark's croquet field split off with its own rules and customs, and the Nordlingers retreating to their safe spaces, where they go back to drinking vodka and eating lutefisk. The fields of North Vibristan, however, are soon destroyed from corruption and neglect, so the Vibristanis move on play croquet with other willing competitors, the ever-cooperative folks from Merkeland.

Blogger Artisanal Toad November 20, 2017 1:25 PM  

Vox

Regarding @80

Please consider getting things like that into comic book form with appropriate artwork. I know I'm not alone in saying I'd buy them to give to others and leave in places where young skulls full of mush will find them.

Blogger M Cephas November 20, 2017 1:35 PM  

Do you have data to back up that it was a majority of new Americans who created the Federal Reserve and instituted the income tax? What about the previous attempt at creating a central bank during Andrew Jackson's time? Was that new Americans?

If you have actual proof of this, it would certainly be a strike against the civic nationalists.

Blogger Doc Rampage November 20, 2017 1:35 PM  

This is not an argument for racial nationalism unless you assume that racial politics are unavoidable, which is essentially begging the question.

The same argument could be used to justify communism by assuming that the opposed groups are the rich and the poor. It could also be used justify feminism by assuming that men and women are naturally opposed. It could also be used by a multi-racial coalition of civic nationalists to kick out all of the Left and the Alt-right by assuming that the opposed groups are those who believe in identity politics and those who oppose it.

Anonymous Grayman November 20, 2017 1:53 PM  

@83

The same argument could be used to justify communism by assuming that the opposed groups are the rich and the poor. It could also be used justify feminism by assuming that men and women are naturally opposed. It could also be used by a multi-racial coalition of civic nationalists to kick out all of the Left and the Alt-right by assuming that the opposed groups are those who believe in identity politics and those who oppose it.

And you would be wrong! Strawman and category error at the same time. Job job!

Anonymous Brick Hardslab November 20, 2017 1:55 PM  

What could we have done differently? How could we have forged a nation from white, black and red? We already had Germans in some numbers.

I was arguing specifically against immigration. I always have. I was also arguing against civic nationalism. It doesn't work because it doesn't exclude. My only comment/question was why does it have to include immigration?

I don't see why it's necessary.

Anonymous Aaron November 20, 2017 2:02 PM  

Indeed, now u are starring to get it.

All theset groups are in fact inevitably opposed in a world governed by the will to power.

In such a world, all groups, as groups, are ultimately opposed.

We see this clearly with feminism. It began as equity feminism, and us now a project for female domination.

That was inevitable.

We live in a world of eat or be eaten - and the modern world has made this clearer than ever before.

The moment men tried to be "fair" to women, women saw an opportunity to dominate - correctly perceiving that this represented merely a weakening of the will to power in men.

The moment whites tried to be "fair" to Jews and fling open the doors of society to them, Jews tried to dominate and crush whites, correctly perceiving that white "fairness" was merely a diminution of the white will to power.

"Equality" is an unstable equilibrium between two roughly equal quantities of power that cannot last, and the side that aims for "fairness" is the side that has suffered a loss in its will to power, and will be crushed.

Have you not read King Lear? He gave up power, and expected "fairness".

Understanding the Law of This World, the Law we live under, there are only two alternatives.

Fight for power, and use the means necessary to get it, whatever they are. Because if you don't, the other guy will, and you will be crushed.

Machiavelli understood this.

This is an honest, if limited position.

The only other alternative is to give up this world for a better one.

That is True Religion.

It is the only other honest option.

But "fairness" is merely the talk of those who cannot give up the world but have lost the will to power needed to win within it.

It is a dishonest position.

Notice, Christian never spike of fairness - a political value - bit of mercy and love.

Anonymous BBGKB November 20, 2017 2:04 PM  

Then jewish judge R says North identifies as West.

Congress should immediately prohibit immigration from countries which do not obey traffic signs.

Shitlibs wont even concede banning from nations whose average IQ is near or below the official murder rate.

Al Bay Shore-I'll still cling to the "Great Society" and integration destroyed the Black neighborhood argument.

How would blacks react if they found out Jayzee stabbed a record exec that was trying to put the moves on him on the casting couch? Or Dave Chappell telling more about black men forced to wear dresses to get ahead in Hollywood?

You can't throw feces into a melting pot and expect a good stew.

To everyone who said Mexicans are natural conservative Christians, George Lopez says wetbacks are natural moslems https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CIBK5J5xLg


Good news: Ha Ha Brits TRUMP lets us piss on moslem corpses

"A former US Marine who was caught urinating on the corpses of dead Taliban fighters got his conviction thrown out this week thanks"

https://nypost.com/2017/11/09/marine-who-urinated-on-taliban-gets-off-thanks-to-generals-meddling/

Blogger VD November 20, 2017 2:04 PM  

Do you have data to back up that it was a majority of new Americans who created the Federal Reserve and instituted the income tax?

Seriously? Data? Of course there is "data". It is a matter of historical record who lobbied for and pushed for the Federal Reserve. You might want to look into who owns it, while you're at it.

This is not an argument for racial nationalism unless you assume that racial politics are unavoidable, which is essentially begging the question.

Racial politics are unavoidable. That's not begging the question. That's an observable historical fact. The fact that you don't like the logical consequences doesn't change history.

What could we have done differently? How could we have forged a nation from white, black and red? We already had Germans in some numbers.

We didn't. The Indian nations were, and are, sovereign nations. Whites aren't even allowed on our land except by permission. Blacks are still not part of the American nation; just ask them. What we could have done differently is what we did between 1920 and 1965: keep out the immigrants.

The USA never managed to force a nation. The federal government imposed a multiethnic empire by force. Just like Yugoslavia, the cracks are showing now that sufficient stress is being applied.

Blogger tz November 20, 2017 2:05 PM  

If you look, you can see how Cuckservatives converge Civic Nationalists. If you look, Cuckservatives are just erudite SJWs that may have a slightly different convergence point. They point and write thousand word essays, and engage in purges.
Civic Nationalists have much more difficulty with preserving culture in the face of entryism. The "nice" people just want free trade, oh, and there are doctors and engineers in Nigera, so why can't we allow them here to become citizens... Meanwhile, track who NR has purged through the years.

Ethno-Nationalists intrinsically shame those of the race that want to mix things up. We can discuss if this is just or fair, but it does preserve the culture and prevents entryism. They can tolerate dissent and even heresy because although they aren't necessarily purged or burned at the stake, they are clearly outside a fairly bright line. Only if you preserve the source of tolerance, can the culture continue to be tolerant.

Civic Nationalists have to have a Stalin/Mao kind of thought police while trying to advocate for liberty. You can't wait until the dissenters hold power, either via something like a critical point (HR) or being a majority. And when you go from Civic Nationalism to Cuckservatism, and it will be slow and subtle.

The problem is the traditional Conservatives haven't bothered to notice first this cuckvergence, then the bluing of their areas. Some are railing about the alt-Right now as racism is intolerable, but stood by silently while their states, counties, or cities were turned blue by importing multicultural identitarians - how much outrage over La Raza or Black Lives Matter? And as more came in, the Wormtongues would say "oh, don't say anything because YOU will be portrayed as a racist for even bringing up the subject" - which was true and it was often the Wormtongues themselves - Consider Sobran's purge at NR. So they never defend an unjust purge, or defend themselves and the civitas and even their precious Proposition itself as the dyscivic minorities move in and take over and vote to turn, say, Virginia into Venezuela.

Blogger VD November 20, 2017 2:06 PM  

My only comment/question was why does it have to include immigration?

You have it backwards. Civic nationalism is the proposed answer to the problems caused by immigration. It is a failed answer. Immigration remains a problem.

Blogger tz November 20, 2017 2:20 PM  

Zmirak points to the difference. The problem is not your principles, it is that they will result in your children living in and going for eternity to hell.

When you have a stable country, you can afford to talk about if a candidate is imperfect, because any replacement, much less his opponent won't be trying to destroy the country. The uniparty, coke v.s. pepsi, but in a good form when both differ only on magnitude and implementation, not direction.

We now have the opposite. Half the country wants to turn it into a socialist dystopia. And most of the leadership who claims to represent the opposition are going along because of their "principles".

When you are hauled off to a reeducation camp and after a year of torture and psychiatric treatment you are trying to resist, they will bring your children in to see you wearing Che T-shirts and calling you an evil capitalist, and stupid and evil Christian, and that they are going undercover to expose other Christians and churches to send them for the same reeducation, you can rejoice that you didn't compromise your principles by voting for someone accused of misconduct 40 years ago. For someone who would have actually done something to reverse the rot and prevent it. It is that serious. This isn't just about baking Gay wedding cakes.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd November 20, 2017 2:38 PM  

VD wrote:Blacks are still not part of the American nation; just ask them.

We don't have to ask them: they are eager to tell us, by word and deed.

Anonymous trev006 November 20, 2017 2:54 PM  

Man. I just had one hell of a history lesson. Did you know the Liberty Bell only gained that name in the 1830's, when abolitionists adopted it as an anti-slavery symbol? And that ten years later, the unstable alloy mix caused it to crack so badly it never sounded again? That the Centennial Bell could cover the Liberty Bell entirely, and works to this day?

As a metaphor, that bell is particularly grim. As a moral lesson, it goes to show "SJWs ruin everything" has been true since the 19th century.

Or maybe longer. Did you know a Jewish officer in the US military was accused of helping Benedict Arnold? (He was later cleared of all charges)

Blogger Andrew Brown November 20, 2017 2:59 PM  

Enough with the chemistry terminology, I come here to get away from my chemical engineering studies. Fml.

Blogger M Cephas November 20, 2017 3:22 PM  

Seriously? Data? Of course there is "data". It is a matter of historical record who lobbied for and pushed for the Federal Reserve. You might want to look into who owns it, while you're at it.

I know there were foreigners involved, but weren't there just as many old Americans as there were new needed for it to succeed? Woodrow Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act. And what about Andrew Jackson who stopped the central bank of his day? His parents were from Ireland. So aren't you just engaging in confirmatory bias?

Anonymous Magna Carta November 20, 2017 3:54 PM  

"Blacks are still not part of the American nation; just ask them."

The "good" blacks and non-whites which conservatives admire (e.g., Thomas Sowell, Alan West, Ben Carson, Bobby Jindal) are a minority of a minority. They hold these people up as examples of what all minorities can be if given a chance. They have been duped. I ask them since India, Africa and China combined, have over 3-4 billion people, let's say we can find 300 million like Bobby Jindal, et al. Are they willing to replace white Americans with these "good" immigrants? Would America still be America? Civic nationalists don't think ahead. They are ideologues.

Blogger VD November 20, 2017 3:56 PM  

I know there were foreigners involved, but weren't there just as many old Americans as there were new needed for it to succeed?

Yes. What part of "Anti-Pareto Party" did you not understand. There are always natives who are corrupted by the foreigners.

Woodrow Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act.

And LBJ signed the 1965 Naturalization Act. So what? He didn't spend the previous 40 freaking years lobbying for it.

You civic nationalists are engaged in specious logic, always confusing the victims with the con men. The fact that the victim is greedy and in some ways culpable does not mean that a) the con man does not exist or that b) the con man is not responsible.

Blogger VFM #7634 November 20, 2017 4:12 PM  

And LBJ signed the 1965 Naturalization Act. So what? He didn't spend the previous 40 freaking years lobbying for it.

Furthermore, the 1965 act passed both houses of congress with veto-proof majorities: House 318-95, Senate 76-18. The rot was already well in place. LBJ was certainly at fault for signing it and being supportive of it, but in this case, Congress would have overridden him if he had vetoed it.

Anonymous Brick Hardslab November 20, 2017 4:29 PM  

After 1964 it was too late. But looking back it was too late before then. The left always said they just wanted a fair chance to be heard. What they wanted was to rot and corrupt.

In my lifetime it went from sodomites go to prison to bake their cake or go to prison.

Whatever comes next, in terms of morality we couldn't be further apart.

Blogger M Cephas November 20, 2017 4:47 PM  

You civic nationalists are engaged in specious logic, always confusing the victims with the con men. The fact that the victim is greedy and in some ways culpable does not mean that a) the con man does not exist or that b) the con man is not responsible.

I'm not a civic nationalist. I'm a nationalist. I still believe America should have a population that is a vast majority of European descent. I just disagree on what you consider American. You've decided that "American" is synonymous with "British colonist". Meaning someone like Andrew Jackson, who was born in America and fought in the Revolutionary War, is not a true American because his parents were from Ireland. You can correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you said earlier.

Blogger Wuzzums Fuzzums November 20, 2017 5:34 PM  

JACIII wrote:The ball doesn't need anything. Especially when it's Player A's ball, Player A's land, Player A's mallet, Player A's beer, and Player A's brisket.

Explain to me how you plan on winning a game by forfeiting.

Blogger elad sputnik November 20, 2017 5:39 PM  

Wuzzums Fuzzums wrote:Explain to me how you plan on winning a game by forfeiting.


A running woodchipper can be very persuasive...

Blogger Meng Greenleaf November 20, 2017 7:23 PM  

I'm still somewhat hung up on what IS meant by "Western Civilization"?
Would it be accurate to suggest:
1. Greek and European Philosophy? This would include Aristotle, Plato, Bacon, Hume, Locke, Jefferson,
2. Roman Law and English Common Law (free-ish markets fall in here)
3. Christianity in the European context.

The culmination and ultimate form was America?

Blogger tz November 20, 2017 8:00 PM  

An Someone waking up

Updated version of "when the Saxon learned to hate".

We need to purge all these soulless, amoral people (and those who are immoral by civilized standards), and then we can discuss how we can return to civility.

Book Idea: Locks in Socks - Saul Alinsky meets Dr. Seuss.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents November 20, 2017 8:04 PM  

Civic Nationalism requires a blank slate to write "Murican" on with indelible chalk.

Civic Nationalism must have magic dirt.

CivNat was ok when the dominant culture was dominant and the number of paperwork Muricans was few. That was between 1924 and 1965. Opening the gates to 1 million paperwork Muricans per year combined with only token resistance to illegal colonization began in 1965 and continues.

Handing over the teaching of the American story to (((non-Americans))) is the other half of the problem. When a single Jewish man is de facto in charge of deciding what is "advanced placement" in every single high school in the USA there could be a problem. Not to mention (((Hollywood))).

CivNats are in opposition to nature, to science and to God. That is why their Babelism-lite is failing to deliver on promises.

Anonymous Anonymous November 20, 2017 8:10 PM  

I encourage everyone to play this short webgame which was designed to illustrate how trust is built within a society... and how it will break down due to bad actors: http://ncase.me/trust//

Anonymous Alice De Goon November 20, 2017 8:14 PM  

@54: So to reframe this as the Prisoner's Dilemma:

Prisoner A and Prisoner B are arrested. If both prisoners stay silent, they'll get a light prison sentence. This is Civic Nationalism.

If Prisoner A rats on Prisoner B and Prisoner B stays silent, Prisoner A gets off scot free and Prisoner B gets a long prison term. This is anti-White Identity Politics.

If both prisoners rat on each other, both are given long prison terms. This is open tribal warfare. (And if one prisoner is much stronger than the other, they have a good chance of breaking out of the prison, freeing themselves and leaving the other prisoner behind to rot. Said other prisoner might also get beaten or shot as retaliation for the escaping of the first prisoner. This is what would happen if the majority whites win the tribal civil war.)

It would behoove the conflict-avoidant in the situation mentioned above to choose the "stay silent" option. And for a long time, schools, culture and government pushed that option. Unfortunately their degenerate, shrieking children have now been put in charge and said children have forgotten that if you look, act and sound like you're going to rat, the other prisoner might just decide against the "stay silent" option themselves.

Anonymous pozymandias November 20, 2017 8:24 PM  

markstoval has it right in #15

"The free market allows everyone to compete-cooperate and the total wealth of all will be far greater than in any other way. But recall that each member is in it for himself and his tribe --- each selfishly playing the game for the benefit of himself and his family.

I think we would all be better off with each tribe apart from the others with a given homeland. I also think that we could all cooperate a lot better between tribes if that were the case. "distance make the heart grow fonder"

The welfare state has been the greatest moral hazard and the biggest draw to invaders. It is time to stop paying the welfare class and let them start finding their own way."

The future, if there is one at all, will probably be an end to the era of the big nation-states and return to city-states and ethno-states. New technologies like 3D printing and networked communications allowing for virtual spaces that don't require everyone to be physically near each other will allow genuinely productive activity to spread anywhere and everywhere instead of being concentrated in a few big cities and a few multiculti super states. The latter two are incredibly vulnerable to manipulation and coercion by SJW elites and the urban ethnic rabbles they use as muscle.

This also reminds me of Vox's comment a few days ago about how "America will not break up but the USA will probably break up around 2033". I'll add that, in hindsight, the disintegration of the USSR into Russia and a bunch of minor states will be seen as the (almost exact) parallel - Russia did not break up, but the artificial construct called the Soviet Union did. Once the amount of brute force needed to hold, say Uzbeks, Lithuanians, and Russians in the same slave-state became unworkable the thing fell apart almost overnight. The same thing might well happen to the USA.

Now I'll do a bit of sci-fi futurology (i.e. witchcraft) and outline briefly what I think the new "dominant" powers on the middle to late 21st century may be:

City States: this is where the last vestiges of multiculturalism will retreat to. These will be very prosperous places but even the fantasy of Democracy will need to be thrown off in acknowledgement of the reality of tribalism, religion, and race. The best of these will be "authoritarian" in the best sense, an autocrat or oligarchy committed to no-nonsense technocracy with wealth and social peace being the goals rather than some "will of the people(s)". Hmm... don't we call this "fascism"? and does that mean that fascism might be better than some of the alternatives?

Ethno-states: these will vary a lot, some will be sort of democratic, perhaps even a bit socialist but without the "racial socialism" you see in the United States and that the Europeans are now stupidly setting themselves up for by allowing dysfunctional immigrant groups to freeload on their social welfare systems. Other ethno-states will be sort of basket-cases with the smarter people always realizing that leaving is a better solution than staying and being part of a chaotic mess. A lot of Africa is already there. With the more successful ethno-states closing their borders and the city-states probably accepting (some) immigrants but with only the best, brightest, or at least richest, allowed in, the immigration escape route will be harder. This might actually end up imporving things a bit in the basket case countries as not all their best people manage to leave.

Feminism: damn it won't let me post my thoughts on this - too long. Overall prognosis is poor though. Maybe in the next post.

Blogger John rockwell November 21, 2017 5:38 AM  

@Voxday
What do you make of the example of singapore?

Blogger wreckage November 21, 2017 6:29 AM  

@ 106 Singapore only permits one player on the field.

Blogger Doc Rampage November 21, 2017 12:51 PM  

Grayman wrote:And you would be wrong! Strawman and category error at the same time. Job job!

You know, "strawman" and "category error" are not just insults that you can apply randomly to any argument that you don't like. They have specific meanings, and when you use them without understanding the meaning, people who understand the meaning can tell that you are just bullshitting.

Anonymous Mr. Rational November 21, 2017 7:56 PM  

Pitcrew wrote:Modern Japan though, would be covered in Fukushima type meltdowns
No it wouldn't.  The dangerous fallout from bombs is fairly short-lived; look at Hiroshima today.  There isn't enough of the long-lived stuff to pose a danger, as spread-out as it is.

Anonymous Crew November 22, 2017 12:52 PM  

Here is Tom Kratman, a science fiction writer, who is on the right side of history.

http://www.everyjoe.com/2017/04/17/politics/civic-nationalism-ourselves-and-our-posterity/#1

In the end, most Americans will continue to embrace civic nationalism. The Alt Right is utterly neutered by this most "unfortunate" circumstance.

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