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Tuesday, November 21, 2017

The False Narrative of Churchianity

The Zman rightly excoriates Churchianity and how its false narrative tends to cause people to erroneously reject genuine Christianity:
The alt-right, like the larger dissident right, is a cultural phenomenon, not a political movement. Smart young males, mostly out of necessity, are picking up paleo-conservative ideas and questioning the prevailing orthodoxy. These ideas are being extended to question the core assumptions of modern American political order. It’s more akin to the Scientific Revolution than a political movement. The former was about rethinking our place in nature. The latter is about rethinking who gets to be in charge.

It’s why it feels like the alt-right is hostile to Christianity. It has to be. What is generally understood to be mainstream Christianity in America, has been hollowed out by Progressivism, and is now worn like an animal skin by crackpots and degenerates from the fringes of the Left. Even the more culturally conservative parts of the country practice a form of Private Protestantism than embraces extreme egalitarianism, anti-racism and universalism. It’s not an accident that these churches are deep into the refugee rackets.

I think most big names in the alt-right avoid the subject, mostly because it results in howls about how this is not real Episcopalianism or this is not real Christianity. It’s reminiscent of the days when academic Marxists would say the Soviet Union was not real Marxism. It may be theologically true that the current iterations of Christianity are outside the traditions and teachings of the faith, the fact remains that the people running mainstream Christianity these days look a lot like the faculty of your local gender studies department.

That’s not a small thing. The reason the New Left was able to sweep the field in the culture war, that included deposing the Old Left, is that their thing took on a quasi-religious tone. Humans are built to be believing machines. That’s a part of biological reality our side has yet to face, but it must be faced eventually. Something is going to have to fill the spiritual vacuum if this cultural phenomenon is going to be a cultural and then political movement. An Alt-Right form of Christianity would be a welcome development.
The important thing is to remember that the -ist is not the -ism. If the core tenets of Christianity as encapsulated in the Nicene Creed are true, then it is relevant to the Alt-Right no matter what corrupt Churchians may do in the name of the Lord.

The Alt-Right form of Christianity is no different than the Alt-Right form of science and the Alt-right form of history. It is the true and uncorrupted form that is not being worn by its enemies as a skin suit.

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185 Comments:

Blogger Doom November 21, 2017 4:41 PM  

I wonder who he is referencing. I don't think he is that on the ball, playing catch-up to try to at least seem relevant. Does he have research staff? At least this time he didn't just steal, or steal AND get it wrong. Not giving him a bone for doing homework, or having it done for him? in any case. Glad he is trying but broken clock and all.

Blogger daddynichol November 21, 2017 4:47 PM  

There seems to be a growing undercurrent in the RCC, pushing back against against the pontiff and his underlings. More laity and priests are saying, "Enough", but I hope it's not too late.

The most popular secular led rebuff hurled against those who protest has been, "Where were you when priests were diddling little boys?" It was an effective way to deflect criticism, but we now see it for what it is, projection on their part.

There is a revival stirring and it's not going to be the brotherhood of man, but the winnowing of the wheat and chaff.

Blogger daddynichol November 21, 2017 4:50 PM  

Vox,

Will you insert a title header in the above posting for easier linking? Thanks

Blogger The Kurgan November 21, 2017 4:54 PM  

At the risk of starting a flame war of Catholics Vs Protestants, which is not my intent, the fact Catholics have a rather precise codification of Christianity is one of the things that made it attractive to me.
Firstly, as long as one stops with the council of Trent and the Pio Benedictine canon law of 1917 (or earlier, such as The dark Lord seems to imply by naming the Nicene Creed), you have a rather coherent set of rules.

The interesting thing is that these rules are generally simplified by the masses but in such a way as to still essentially keep people on the right path, but if you want to study them in depth, and do so, you find a degree of complexity and logical coherence that is quite satisfying in its own right.

A second and often missed point is that having a decent set of rules that stood the test of time, is always a good thing when you need to rebuild after civilisational collapse.

And the third thing is that if one has a tiny amount of thought and curiousity about it, the fact that Catholicism took up arms and kicked the Muslims back out of Europe should give anyone that thinks Christianity is a total cuckfest, pause.

Blogger Markku November 21, 2017 4:55 PM  

I'm not totally against the traditional Christian ideals of pacifism. I heard a story from an old missionary that in Africa, there was an angry mob that was going to take his daughters from his home and rape them. He told them off in Jesus' name, and he says that they just flew up in the air and in all directions like hit by a hurricane.

If you can do that, sure, don't carry a gun.

If you can't, carry a gun.

Blogger The Kurgan November 21, 2017 4:57 PM  

I still think a gun would be required. Skeet shooting is fun.

Blogger VFM #7634 November 21, 2017 5:02 PM  

"The Zman rightly excoriates Churchianity and how its false narrative tends to cause people to erroneously reject genuine Christianity:"

Or in the case of Catholics, rejecting Catholicism because the Vatican is being run by SJWs who don't even believe the religion they're supposedly leaders of.

There seems to be a growing undercurrent in the RCC, pushing back against against the pontiff and his underlings.

@2 daddynichol
He and the five before him were heretics and therefore usurpers, and not real Popes. The sooner people realize this the better. Unlike, say, the presidency of a country, where it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you were legitimately elected, you have to actually believe the Catholic Faith to be a real Pope.

Oddly enough, the most prominent form of cucks among right-wing Catholics are those who insist the last six antipopes are valid Popes and vehemently attack Catholics who consider them antipopes.

Blogger daddynichol November 21, 2017 5:02 PM  

Always look for an opportunity to improve your shooting skills.

Anonymous Pitcrew November 21, 2017 5:06 PM  

If this true then this new Alt-right Church would be the woman and her child mentioned in Revelations. In the Bible a Church is described as a woman. The Woman gets driven into the wilderness. I suspect this is truth.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 21, 2017 5:11 PM  

I wonder sometimes if you have a touch of the 'tism.

If the core tenets of Christianity as encapsulated in the Nicene Creed are true, then it is relevant to the Alt-Right no matter what corrupt Churchians may do in the name of the Lord.

This is false, with the Alt-Right in Iceland being a counterexample.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/01/23/in-this-country-literally-no-young-christians-believe-that-god-created-the-earth/?utm_term=.310898970994

But last year, thousands of Icelanders suddenly joined the ancient Zuist movement -- a religion centered on worshiping Sumerian gods.

Blogger Jeff aka Orville November 21, 2017 5:12 PM  

The vein of cuck runs deep. I was watching Chuck Swindoll on Youtube last Sunday and he went off on the clowns Clinton AND Trump.

Blogger Markku November 21, 2017 5:12 PM  

I think it's pretty clear that the woman of Revelation is Israel, and the child is Jesus. Remember, it doesn't say that the EVENTS happen at this point in Revelation - it says that the SIGN DEPICTING THE EVENTS happens then.

Anonymous Pitcrew November 21, 2017 5:13 PM  

To elaborate, proper Christianity has been driven into the "wilderness", as described in Revelations 12. Also, note that the "Whore of Babylon" would describe a type of church.

Blogger Robert Browning November 21, 2017 5:13 PM  

You are so right. It is the teachings of Jesus Christ that give strength and courage to all that follow his light.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 21, 2017 5:14 PM  

I.e. it is in no way inevitable that Europe will continue to have a Christian tradition, and in the event it doesn't the truth of the Nicene Creed will mean as much to the Alt-Right as it does to Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq.

Anonymous Pitcrew November 21, 2017 5:16 PM  

@10
So, those in Iceland are being led astray, originally weakened by a false church (Churchianity)? Sumerian and Babylonian- seems awfully close to me.

Blogger S1AL November 21, 2017 5:17 PM  

I'm going to also attempt to avoid any flame wars and point out that most Protestant denominations accept the validity of the seven true ecumenical councils.

'I.e. it is in no way inevitable that Europe will continue to have a Christian tradition, and in the event it doesn't the truth of the Nicene Creed will mean as much to the Alt-Right as it does to Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq.'

The Nicene Councils didn't take place in Europe, rendering this entire statement ironic and fallacious.

Moreover, the lack of a Christian tradition in any specific location has zero bearing whatsoever in the actual truths encapsulated in the Creed.

Blogger The Kurgan November 21, 2017 5:19 PM  

Hello fellow sede privationist. I hope we can shear enemy heads together at some not too distant future.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 21, 2017 5:21 PM  

Pitcrew wrote:@10

So, those in Iceland are being led astray, originally weakened by a false church (Churchianity)? Sumerian and Babylonian- seems awfully close to me.


I doubt you could find ten people in that entire country who've even heard of the Nicene Creed.

Tell me again about how the triumph of truth is inevitable.

Blogger Markku November 21, 2017 5:23 PM  

When I was at school, we had to recite the Nicene Creed by heart on every major holiday. (Europe doesn't have separation of Church and State). I doubt things are very different in Iceland than Finland.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer November 21, 2017 5:23 PM  

I doubt you could find ten people in that entire country who've even heard of the Nicene Creed.

The church I attend recites it every Sunday. We probably get about 150 - 200 people between the two services. So that's considerably more than ten.

Anonymous Pitcrew November 21, 2017 5:24 PM  

@19
I believe the triumph of truth is inevitable. It's truth.

Iceland is cucked pretty hard, right now at least. But its cold there, let the fiat currency fail, and hard times come, and Icelanders will turn to faith.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 21, 2017 5:25 PM  

S1AL wrote:The Nicene Councils didn't take place in Europe, rendering this entire statement ironic and fallacious.

I literally can't even right now. Must have spent all my patience on Koanic earlier.

Anonymous Frank Lin November 21, 2017 5:28 PM  

Regarding timing, this Zman post was written months ago. This looks more like Vox giving praise where praise is due - despite a recent, minor kerfuffle.

Blogger Markku November 21, 2017 5:28 PM  

Most kids mumbled it of course, just so that their classmates wouldn't think they actually MEANT it. But I'd say that at least of generation X and older, most adults could still immediately remember at least 50% of it.

Blogger S1AL November 21, 2017 5:31 PM  

'I literally can't even right now. Must have spent all my patience on Koanic earlier.'

You're the one who tied the relevance of the Creed to the continuance of the Christian tradition in Europe. Don't blame me for that special level of cogdis.

Blogger tz November 21, 2017 5:38 PM  

Saying today's Churchians are Christian are like saying the Pharisees, or the Talmud (do read it) represents real Judiasm.

If the Talmud represents the Jews, the pogroms were not merely warranted but insufficient.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 21, 2017 5:40 PM  

Nevermind, go back to your victory dance. You're on the right side of history, it's inevitable really.

“Go to war and you will be successful, because the LORD will hand it over to the king!”

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 21, 2017 5:41 PM  

Not that I'm insinuating anyone here is in a leader-like position, wouldn't want to rustle any jimmies.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother November 21, 2017 5:42 PM  

Did a voice from Heaven yell "Pull!" ?

Blogger S1AL November 21, 2017 5:43 PM  

Ohhhhhhh.

You're taking 'inevitable' as a literal statement.

*facepalm*

Anonymous Pitcrew November 21, 2017 5:44 PM  

@28
Aeoli,
what do you make of the divine right of Kings?

Blogger Lovekraft November 21, 2017 5:44 PM  

Recently-discovered motherload of old-time sermons by a variety of followers of the Faith.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 21, 2017 5:46 PM  

I figured it out. I'm triggered because yesterday somebody from the new religion called me up out of nowhere and offered me a cushy tech job, and there's a part of me that really, really wants to just sell out and be done treading water in this sea of madness and idiocy.

Blogger tz November 21, 2017 5:47 PM  

Creed is good.

I think Christianity writ large was infected by liberation theology and the "seamless garment" doctrine. The most common example is capital punishment v.s. Abortion saying you must be opposed to both.

That has NEVER been Traditional Christianty.

There has been a hierarchy of goods and series of principles, even what constitutes a "just war".

But somehow using an epithet is somehow equivalent to partial birth abortion or having a child out of wedlock.

It has perverted things so we no longer can tell specks from planks, or when we can, consider them equivalent - let me remove the speck from your eye before you remove the plank from mine.

I would add to Vox's latter note in that the alt-Right Christianity seeks to know what is truly "Christian" by reason and evidence, and using historical norms (like the Nuclear family) instead of feelz or pure abstract philosophy which ends up being sophistry.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 21, 2017 5:48 PM  

Pitcrew wrote:@28

Aeoli,

what do you make of the divine right of Kings?


As long as they keep it to themselves, they can be as divinely ordained as they please. Preferably in Germany, they'd be into that kind of thing.

Blogger weka November 21, 2017 5:49 PM  

The issue is the truth. The modernist/liberal theologians have lead many from all chruches astray. You can spot them by their use of "faith tradition", allusions to paradigm shifts, and their ritual obeisance to those idols sexism and racism.

There is a pushbacknin all churches. Among the prods this is disguised by people of faith leaving heretical congregations.

And this is not getting publicity.

Blogger weka November 21, 2017 5:50 PM  

Push back in. Typo above.

Blogger tz November 21, 2017 5:51 PM  

@34 - you got it backwards. You are treading water in a small lake in Trumpland
The sea of madness and idiocy is like Galilee which was walked upon by our Lord and he calmed the wind and waves with a word.
Evil IS very big, but also very thin and nebulous and disappears and evaporates in sunlight.

Blogger tz November 21, 2017 5:53 PM  

@32 I prefer the divine alt-Right of emperors.
@28 "no, say what the Lord told you to say".

Anonymous Pitcrew November 21, 2017 5:55 PM  

@36
Every single European monarch during medieval times would likely have been described as alt-right.

Blogger Markku November 21, 2017 5:56 PM  

If the Church didn't look down on apologetics like it does to an overwhelmingly large degree, this Seamless Garment inanity wouldn't get any traction. Everybody would know that the Bible doesn't really forbid killing, but only a particular type of killing. ("Murder" is a good enough translation, but literally the word would be more like "brutalize to death"). And it would be immediately obvious that abortion and capital punishment fall on different sides of what is forbidden and what is commanded.

Blogger Markku November 21, 2017 6:02 PM  

Gen 9:6 Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.

Ninth chapter? OOPSIE! That's a Noahide law. Applicable to all mankind at all times.

Blogger S1AL November 21, 2017 6:03 PM  

Markku -

I can't speak to traditional translations, but that word - as used in the Bible - also seems to carry a sense of "to kill with the moral disregard of an animal".

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 21, 2017 6:03 PM  

tz wrote:@32 I prefer the divine alt-Right of emperors.

@28 "no, say what the Lord told you to say".


I'm not a prophet, but I can tell you right now that if Vox doesn't sack up and lead the Alt-West we are 100% fucked. My attempts at leadership serve the sole purpose of shaming better men to do it right out of pity, I have zero expectation of actually succeeding.

Anonymous Anonymous November 21, 2017 6:03 PM  

One problem the Churches are having is that one of the traditional missions of the church was to provide help to the downtrodden. It was called charity. Christian charity. This important mission kept the people in the pews occupied with doing good works also helped the downtrodden as they were not entitled to the charity and were somewhat obligated to help themselves as well. (stop drinking or whatever)

Society has suffered as well as the underclass has grown and now believes that the welfare they are given is their right. Hell, many even hate whites for not giving more!

As always when you look at our problems closely you will find that the nation-State (the government) is partly or largely to blame. Compare the state of society in 1965 to today. Why '65? That is when LBJ got the "Great Society" going and greatly destroyed American society in the process.

Anonymous Pitcrew November 21, 2017 6:07 PM  

@45
Vox has explained why he doesn't want to lead.
Find some 128 IQ alt-righter who will listen and communicate effectively.
Beyond 128 IQ leaders become somewhat condescending. That would also exclude most reading this blog.

Blogger Elder Son November 21, 2017 6:09 PM  

You can't blame LBJ anymore than you can blame God for Adam and Eve's sin.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 21, 2017 6:09 PM  

Pitcrew wrote:@36

Every single European monarch during medieval times would likely have been described as alt-right.


I'm autistic and Irish to boot. Either make an argument or beat me in a fight.

Blogger Markku November 21, 2017 6:13 PM  

S1AL wrote:Markku -

I can't speak to traditional translations, but that word - as used in the Bible - also seems to carry a sense of "to kill with the moral disregard of an animal".


Yes, literally the word is derived from "hacking in pieces" and it is also used about a lion killing a man.

Anonymous Ivan Throne November 21, 2017 6:14 PM  

I am working on a project with my advisor Mr. Swift:

Alt.Church

Deus Vult needs effort, not merely slogans.

Regards,

Ivan

Anonymous Anonymous November 21, 2017 6:16 PM  

"You can't blame LBJ anymore than you can blame God for Adam and Eve's sin."

I can, and I do. There were more actors involved in that abortion, but the evil LBJ was the leader.

He has been quoted as bragging that the sniggers would vote Democrat for 100 years after passing the legislation. (paraphrased from memory)


From the net:

Lyndon Baines Johnson 1963... "These Negroes, they're getting pretty uppity these days and that's a problem for us since they've got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we've got to do something about this, we've got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference... I'll have them niggers voting Democratic for the next two hundred years".

Anonymous Pitcrew November 21, 2017 6:16 PM  

@48
Sorry but you're wrong Elder,
LBJ knew of the "behavioral sink" experiment, commonly called "mouse universe".

LBJ wanted to try the same on African Americans. Hence the "Great Society" moniker. Look up Dr. John B. Calhoun.

The problem is, when you break a community like that you have violent and destructive spill over into other communities, because these are humans, not rats.

Check this out, look who Calhoun is meeting with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun

Blogger Arthur Isaac November 21, 2017 6:17 PM  

OT. Disney blowing up.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/john-lasseter-taking-leave-absence-pixar-missteps-1057113

Blogger Elder Son November 21, 2017 6:19 PM  

I can, and I do. There were more actors involved in that abortion, but the evil LBJ was the leader.

Let's try this then.

You can't blame LBJ anymore than you can blame the devil for Adam and Eve's sin.

Oh! Right! Romans 13!

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 21, 2017 6:20 PM  

Ivan Throne wrote:Alt.Church

Where do I sign? I'm itchy to suicide bomb something.

Anonymous ZhukovG November 21, 2017 6:21 PM  

Wow, 50 posts and we haven't started reenacting the 30 years war. Almost brings a tear to eye.

All seriousness aside, Protestants have some very sound creeds and catechisms. Their converged leaders just try to ignore them.

As for the RCC, Pope Flower Child is something of a godsend. His presence has started to waken the traditionalists. When we have a good Pope, like Pope Rock Star(John Paul II) or Pope Intellectual(Benedict XVI), traditionalists tend to slumber too much.

Anonymous Pitcrew November 21, 2017 6:24 PM  

@49
Constantine, Clovis, Martel, Charlemagne, Frederick, John, Henry VIII, Charles I, William III.

Anonymous DissidentRight November 21, 2017 6:25 PM  

@The Kurgan: At the risk of starting a flame war of Catholics Vs Protestants, which is not my intent, the fact Catholics have a rather precise codification of Christianity is one of the things that made it attractive to me.
Firstly, as long as one stops with the council of Trent
I'm not totally against the traditional Christian ideals of pacifism.

Again, not to contribute to a flame war, but you can slap down LCMS cuckiness with the Doctrine of Two Kingdoms. The LCMS laity can be a pacifist in his private life (most of us are cucks, even the gun-owing ones) but he’s still a citizen of the State (‘lefthand kingdom’) and therefore should expect to have to defend the civil order with force. Theological arguments for pacifism are for the Church (‘righthand kingdom’) and don’t fly in any other setting because category error.

†All the other larger ‘Lutheran’ organizations are Fake.

Anonymous DissidentRight November 21, 2017 6:26 PM  

Sorry to double post:

@The Kurgan: At the risk of starting a flame war of Catholics Vs Protestants, which is not my intent, the fact Catholics have a rather precise codification of Christianity is one of the things that made it attractive to me.
Firstly, as long as one stops with the council of Trent


At the risk of contributing to a Catholic/Protestant flame war, which is also not my intent, if you drill down through pan-Lutheranism and the natural cuckiness of Germans and Swedes, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (as the biggest white Lutheran synod still standing†) has the Book of Concord, which draws from all the major Church Fathers and all the ancient liturgies, and avoids several of the common complaints made by Protestants against Roman Catholics. You will frequently hear confessional Lutherans talking about the ‘one holy catholic and Apostolic Church,’ tracing a direct line through historic Western Christianity all the way back to the first bishop of Rome. (Although we don’t place any particular emphasis on the latter part.)

The LCMS also has the distinction of already having theologically de-liberalized its institutions (seminaries & church government). Not the same thing as uncucking, but it’s a start, and see below:

@5 Marrku: I'm not totally against the traditional Christian ideals of pacifism.

Again, not to contribute to a flame war, but you can slap down LCMS cuckiness with the Doctrine of Two Kingdoms. The LCMS laity can be a pacifist in his private life (most of us are cucks, even the gun-owing ones) but he’s still a citizen of the State (‘lefthand kingdom’) and therefore should expect to have to defend the civil order with force. Theological arguments for pacifism are for the Church (‘righthand kingdom’) and don’t fly in any other setting because category error.

†All the other larger ‘Lutheran’ organizations are Fake.

Anonymous Anonymous November 21, 2017 6:27 PM  

You can't blame LBJ anymore than you can blame the devil for Adam and Eve's sin.

I can, and I do.

You can believe any stupid thing you want. I really don't care how ignorant of the issue you are.

No doubt you also find FDR totally blameless for everything as well. You State worshipers are something.

Blogger Elder Son November 21, 2017 6:34 PM  

You can believe any stupid thing you want.

I don't hold LBJ blameless. I hold "The Church" and "The People" accountable.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 21, 2017 6:39 PM  

Pitcrew wrote:@49

Constantine, Clovis, Martel, Charlemagne, Frederick, John, Henry VIII, Charles I, William III.


Cao Cao. Do I have to explain the difference between effectiveness and anointment? I may not agree with them, but the Rothschilds can at least form a valid syllogism.

Blogger VD November 21, 2017 6:43 PM  

Tell me again about how the triumph of truth is inevitable.

The truth ALWAYS wins out in the end for the same reason gravity does. The time frame is not your lifetime. And the Nicene Creed, if true, will continue to be relevant to the universe even if not one single person on all the Earth believes in it.

You clearly don't grasp that it is Iceland and the European Nations that are in danger due to their false beliefs, not Christianity and not Jesus Christ.

Even this falling away was predicted.

Blogger Markku November 21, 2017 6:48 PM  

Again, not to contribute to a flame war, but you can slap down LCMS cuckiness with the Doctrine of Two Kingdoms.

This guy was Pentecostal. But I was being ironic. I'm pretty sure 99.9% of us don't believe themselves to be able to do a divine Hadoken when necessary. Hence, guns.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 21, 2017 6:50 PM  

I'll make a nuisance of myself somewhere else.

Anonymous Pitcrew November 21, 2017 6:52 PM  

@63
Anointment would be explained through birth, life, crowning.

Effectiveness is demonstrated through rule and what it brings.

Blogger Markku November 21, 2017 6:53 PM  

If you don't carry weapons because you think God is going to protect you with something much more powerful, that's at least a coherent position. You may be wrong about the fact, but at least it's coherent.

If you don't carry a weapon because you think God is against violence, you are SERIOUSLY confused.

Anonymous Pitcrew November 21, 2017 6:54 PM  

@66
Don't go Aeoli, allow me to explain.

Henry VIII instead of his older brother- that's anointment.

in hoc signo vinces, that's effectiveness.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera November 21, 2017 7:03 PM  

I will drop one white pill though: It was always hopeless, and that hasn't changed. But then, here we are. And in the final analysis some of us come out better than we honestly deserved.

/preachy

Blogger Lazarus November 21, 2017 7:17 PM  

Anybody else seen this site?:

https://damianmichael.com/alt-christianity/

The 21 Theses of Alt-Christianity

Anonymous Mycroft Jones November 21, 2017 7:20 PM  

If it isn't out of line to post a link here, the archives of George Gordon are a pretty Alt-Right type of Christianity. Start off with episode one, then browse to see if any topics catch your interest. http://georgegordon.org/audio/radio/bigpage.html

Anonymous Jack November 21, 2017 7:23 PM  

@ Pitcrew

Thanks for the tip on Calhoun and behavioral sink. Eerily similar to the present state of Western society. But I can't find any reference that LBJ knew about this phenomenon and sought to "try it out" with his policies. Source?

Blogger Elder Son November 21, 2017 7:28 PM  

Jesus was no pacifist:

Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?

But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?

In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there. And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; do not make my Father's house a house of trade.”

And, couldn't Jesus also have called on 12 legions of angels to clear out the Temple?

And were not the Temple Guards assigned their duties (1 Chronicles 26)? And, are you not Gods Temple? Guard the Temple.

Blogger Gloriam Deo November 21, 2017 7:38 PM  

Kurgan. I am looking for a church. What is sede ptivationism? Where can I go to find a good mass?

Anonymous von Bludd November 21, 2017 7:40 PM  

tz wrote:Saying today's Churchians are Christian are like saying the Pharisees, or the Talmud (do read it) represents real Judiasm.

If the Talmud represents the Jews, the pogroms were not merely warranted but insufficient.


According to Jews, it represents Jews.

"The Talmud was created by the Jewish people and the Talmud has, in turn, molded them as a nation. So many aspects of Jewish culture are somehow connected to, based on, or inspired by the Talmud: Halakhic literature, Jewish philosophy, Biblical exegesis, and even works that have no ostensible connection with Talmudic literature, like poetry or prayers. The Talmud also has far-reaching socio-historical implications, as no Jewish community that has been deprived of the ability to study Talmud has been able to endure."
http://www.steinsaltz.org/Importance_for_the_Jewish_People.php

"It is always assumed that the most important text of Judaism is the Torah. But while it is true that the Torah is uniquely revered as the essence of our faith identity — and elevated above all other texts as the unadulterated word of God — the primary text of Judaism is undoubtedly the Talmud."
https://www.algemeiner.com/2017/08/11/why-the-talmud-is-the-most-important-text-in-judaism/

A Christian endeavoring to, by God's grace, consistently and rightly apply the teachings of Scripture in all areas of their life will not, and cannot, be a Churchian, though, due to the progressive nature of sanctification, they may be for a time. A Jew consistently applying the teachings of the Talmud will be...a true Jew with all that that entails, the gist of which you have noted in your post. That is the difference; a perverse inconsistency compared to a perverse consistency.

Blogger Were-Puppy November 21, 2017 7:41 PM  

@10 Aeoli Pera
But last year, thousands of Icelanders suddenly joined the ancient Zuist movement -- a religion centered on worshiping Sumerian gods.
---

They are buying into that olde time illuminati Annunaki relgion with the bloodlines and everything ?

Blogger Elder Son November 21, 2017 7:51 PM  

And when Jusus was asked how to pray, he said: "What? Are you idiots? Ask the Saints, in their name, to pray for you!"

Anonymous Jack November 21, 2017 7:53 PM  

@77 What was that G.K. Chesterton said about people who no longer believe in God?

Anonymous TheLostOne November 21, 2017 7:55 PM  

Been lurking here for a long time. Surprised I've never seen faithandheritage.com mentioned. Just discovered it yesterday via vdare. Seems solid so far.

Anonymous Bob M November 21, 2017 8:00 PM  

Off topic:
Another Hillary mega-supporter just committed suicide!

Anonymous Pitcrew November 21, 2017 8:02 PM  

@73
Sometime after Calhoun's experiment he worked at Stanfords Behavioral Science Program (funded by the Ford foundation). Former Truman admin officials, who specialized in "urban renewal" did draw from that research when they where working on LBJ (really Kennedy's) Great Society. I'll look for their names, but LBJ had to have known, as would other DNC big whigs. Odds are they were looking for a way to keep New Deal programs running longer by "culling" the African American population.

Anonymous Mycroft Jones November 21, 2017 8:07 PM  

Solid Alt-Christian website: http://www.bibleversusconstitution.org/

Ted's book "Bible versus Constitution" is free to read online, should almost be required reading.

Anonymous badhairday November 21, 2017 8:25 PM  

'The truth ALWAYS wins out in the end for the same reason gravity does.'

Gravity does not always 'win' - that's how we’re able to launch spacecraft for example.

Is the Nicene Creed a statement of universal truth? It starts with 'I believe' in the English translation.

Blogger S1AL November 21, 2017 8:32 PM  

'Is the Nicene Creed a statement of universal truth? It starts with 'I believe' in the English translation.'

The original is "we believe". Both versions are universally accepted.

Blogger Elder Son November 21, 2017 8:41 PM  

Gravity always wins in the manner that it is meant to "win".

Anonymous The Right Villainous John Hall November 21, 2017 8:56 PM  

" Nicene Councils didn't take place in Europe"

By about 50 miles. In an essentially European empire. Your claim that being on the wrong bank of a river (renders) "this entire statement ironic and fallacious" is absurd.

Blogger Elder Son November 21, 2017 9:08 PM  

And why do we need the "Nicene Creed", when we have the Bible, which is Gods word? What does the scriptures say? Isn't it enough? Or, do we have to Talmud it with extra extrapolate man wisdom?

Blogger S1AL November 21, 2017 9:09 PM  

Did you *read* the statement to which I was responding? It was idiotic even without the ironic factoid.

Blogger S1AL November 21, 2017 9:10 PM  

Elder Son - The Creed is merely an encapsulation of the scriptural truths. It's useful as a common point for all Christian denominations, to separate from the kooks.

Blogger James Dixon November 21, 2017 9:14 PM  

> If you can do that, sure, don't carry a gun.

The only one I've seen here who might be able to pull that off is Beau.

> I doubt you could find ten people in that entire country who've even heard of the Nicene Creed.

While the current Episcopal Church has probably dropped it (I'd have to check their current abomination of the Prayer Book to see), every past iteration knew it.

> Tell me again about how the triumph of truth is inevitable.

Is Christ the son of God? Did he rise from the dead? If so, the triumph of truth is inevitable. If not...

Anonymous Ahärôwn November 21, 2017 9:16 PM  

Elder Son wrote:And why do we need the "Nicene Creed", when we have the Bible, which is Gods word? What does the scriptures say? Isn't it enough? Or, do we have to Talmud it with extra extrapolate man wisdom?

That's because most people don't actually read scripture, and if they do, they tend to cherry-pick things out of context (MPAI, and all that).

Thus, creeds are a tl;dr for the common folk, back when most people were illiterate, and if things continue as they are, creeds will come into increasing fashion once again.

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 21, 2017 9:20 PM  

LBJ gave Texas its independent power grid. He has that at least.

Blogger Lazarus November 21, 2017 9:22 PM  

James Dixon wrote:Is Christ the son of God? Did he rise from the dead? If so, the triumph of truth is inevitable. If not...

Exactly. Churchianity cannot even seem to agree to THAT position.

Anonymous johnc November 21, 2017 9:25 PM  

When I look at the West I see two primary overarching "moods" resulting in its decay right now. There's little overlap between the two but between the two there's a lot of coverage.

The first is probably less common at this time and it is the idea that when we die, we cease to exist. There's just nothing. That's it. No judgment, no consequences.

The second is more pernicious and is the idea that God is just one big Golden Retriever in the sky. Somebody dies and of course he or she went straight to heaven! "I'm a nice person! I've never killed anybody! When I die, I'm going to go to heaven!" Nowadays the only requirement for canonization is death. One must have a real pair of balls to not fear their personal judgment, but that's where the world is today! I would be surprised if 1 in 10,000 people made it to heaven these days; and there's only 300 million people in America, so do the math on that one.

When you look at people out there they just go about their daily business and seem to never even think about what happens after death.

But these moods have now totally taken over the Church.

Blogger Elder Son November 21, 2017 9:26 PM  

So, by this creed, thou shalt be saved? Hmm. I guess it wasn't enough to just confess with you heart and mouth that Christ Jesus was/is your Lord and Savior after the gospel was preached to them.

The gospel of the creed!

Blogger Doug Cranmer November 21, 2017 9:31 PM  

You might enjoy The Thinking Housewife blog.

http://www.thinkinghousewife.com/wp/

Blogger Elder Son November 21, 2017 9:32 PM  

S1AL - Okay. I get it. Just to double plus-n-good the gospel on top of, If you believe with all your heart, etc., etc.

In the big scheme of things, it isn't going to save anyone, or any nation.

Blogger S1AL November 21, 2017 9:33 PM  

The Creed is the short version of Gospel theology, you incorrigible nitwit.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine November 21, 2017 9:40 PM  

@Elder Son, where do you think the comprehension that it was that easy came from? Why do you think everyone quotes John 3:16?

Answer: Because the Nicene creed was used as a tool to simplify the understanding to the barest necessities. It's not exactly a long creed. Your understanding -- that you're using to try to excoriate the Nicene Creed -- came from people communicating the Nicene Creed.

Just like atheists do, cutting off their own logical roots because they fail to recognize what they are.

Anonymous AB.Prosper November 21, 2017 9:43 PM  

Aeoli Pera wrote:But last year, thousands of Icelanders suddenly joined the ancient Zuist movement -- a religion centered on worshiping Sumerian gods.

Unlike Norse Paganism which is actually practiced Zuism is just there as a protest like registering as Jedi Knight in Australia was.

Anyway, Christianity is not doing well in the West at all. Not one Western strongly Christian nation has high or replacement fertility and retention is low so even higher fertility is no real path to growth.

Why its so hard is that once a person stops believing and society isn't pushing people into church it starts to sound as ridiculous as any religion

With apologies for the crass and irreligious words but the Atheists see it this way (from Urban Dictionary)

The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

That is not easy to overcome and while some people will have faith, without social pressure people are either not going to care or the smart ones will "nope" it and find some belief that feel/seem right and may meet the facts better

My guess is they will revert to instinctual religion which for European is nature worship , hence all the green mania and environmental nonsense

How Christianity get back from that slump is way above my pay grade

Blogger S1AL November 21, 2017 9:46 PM  

Ah yes, the "Christianity is less logical than my religion of soy, climate change, abortion, euthanasia, and fatherless children" argument.

Always convincing.

Blogger Geoarrge November 21, 2017 9:53 PM  

One of the mechanisms by which churches and conservative organizations seem to be cucked, is something you might call 'heuristic retardation.'

Definition: The reluctance to acknowledge principles based on observations which statistically are usually probably true (eg observations about ethnic or other demographic groups), out of concern for outliers who might be mistreated if the principle is taken as universal fact.

Blogger Lazarus November 21, 2017 9:58 PM  

AB.Prosper wrote:That is not easy to overcome

If people want to make life-decisions based on Reductio ad absurdum, it would be totally rude to point it out, I suppose.

Blogger Lazarus November 21, 2017 10:00 PM  

johnc wrote:When you look at people out there they just go about their daily business and seem to never even think about what happens after death.

Don't think they never consider their own eventual demise. It is everpresent in their thoughts. Hence the need for so many distractions.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine November 21, 2017 10:13 PM  

"Gravity does not always 'win' - that's how we’re able to launch spacecraft for example."

I don't think you're thinking large scale or long term enough.

Now, logically barring a stronger and constant (to eternity) opposing force driving things apart, gravity WILL eventually win. Even if you used 99.9...% of the universe to propel two atoms diametrically apart at maximum velocity, they would eventually be drawn back together under a Newtonian understanding of physics.

Granted, gravity may have a limited max range due to quantum stepping down to zero (I don't know) or radioactive decay of the atoms involved (not sure how gravity functions on all subatomic particles), but truth is more like Newtonian gravity anyway. Newtonian gravity always wins eventually.

Anonymous crushlimbraw November 21, 2017 10:24 PM  

The main problem of Churchianity today is the dispensing of pabulum from the pulpits - so the pews just sing Kumbaya - a mindless feel good nicey-nice without substance! Read Hebrews 5:11-14 sometime.
This syncs perfectly with the culture at large - secular humanism with a bible study!
I still hold out for a restoration - at some point Christians will rediscover Matthew 28:18-20 - the Great Commission - and I firmly believe that Vox Day and company is part of that mission.
No, this is NOT spiritual navel gazing - it's real life.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine November 21, 2017 10:24 PM  

"find some belief that feel/seem right and may meet the facts better"

Than Christianity? Set = DNE.

Similarly, the reduction you quoted? As opposed to man coming from an ape that came from a lizard that came from a fish that came from a protozooan that came from inanimate clay via the perpetual intervention of the god lady-luck as well as coming from fusion in stars that congealed from cosmic gas clouds that congealed from an explosion that came from nothing because no reason.

Seems rather sane by comparison, doesn't it? Anything coming from anything else seems rather more sane than something coming from nothing, let alone everything coming from nothing repeatedly.

Blogger Arthur Isaac November 21, 2017 10:25 PM  

On the subject of the Torah and Talmud (and the resulting infiltration of Jewish heresies into the Church) I'm increasingly believing the reason that God chose them is that He was blessing the patriarchs but that He also knew by doing so that He would have have the perfect corporate rebel in the Jewish people. People so narcissistic that they would be driven to be the embodiment of anti-Christ and a perfect adversary to the Body of Christ. We see their heresies at work in Churchianity the borrowed them from their father (who Jesus identified).

Blogger Azure Amaranthine November 21, 2017 10:26 PM  

The conclusions:

Something = Nothing.

and

Nothing = Something.

Leave something to be desired, especially since they violate the most basic rules of logic.

Blogger Arthur Isaac November 21, 2017 10:29 PM  

@johnc, our God is a consuming fire.

He that would reign with Him must also suffer with Him.

Anonymous AB.Prosper November 21, 2017 10:38 PM  

S1AL wrote:Ah yes, the "Christianity is less logical than my religion of soy, climate change, abortion, euthanasia, and fatherless children" argument.

Always convincing


Our elite are idiots and we'd be better served by Christian people.

The only one that can't remotely be justified though is fatherless children. Soy isn't really much of a part of the "faith" they support these days

Abortion, Infanticide and Euthanasia, the later less so are common in many cultures and have civic benefit for the whole. That doesn't answer any moral questions of course but it does answer practical ones

I'm not sold on climate change, I think its driven by religious impulses , nature worship being a kind of default for Europeans but the claim is that the evidence for it is overwhelming . It requires much less of a leap of faith than relgion.

And while it doesn't convince me either there there is a rather large excluded middle who might well not believe a word of it ore necessarily the current civic religion and since friends, family aren't putting social pressure to participate, they aren't going to

Right now we are stuck having to tolerate, believe and participate in nonsense of one kind or another. I;d prefer truth over that but if we are going to have a state religion, we'd be better served with one that has wisdom

Lazarus wrote:If people want to make life-decisions based on Reductio ad absurdum, it would be totally rude to point it out, I suppose

We talk about capital T truth here quite a bit, if something makes no logical sense , it may not be true.

Reductio Ad Absurdum isn't the only criteria but when truth is in play, it a very good tool to use

Expressed that way the Christian origin story is nearly as silly as say the Norse one with people being licked from ice by a magic cow


Without resorting to internal references why believe either?

Blogger Brad Matthews November 21, 2017 10:51 PM  

HA

Blogger Brad Matthews November 21, 2017 10:55 PM  

Pretty sure tech could use a heavy dose of illumination

Blogger Brad Matthews November 21, 2017 10:56 PM  

Moses needs an Aaron

Anonymous Rolf November 21, 2017 10:57 PM  

In some ways, it's a great time to have released The Heretics of St. Possenti.

Currently at #40 in category, 23 good reviews.

Blogger Brad Matthews November 21, 2017 10:58 PM  

Keep us advised

Blogger Brad Matthews November 21, 2017 11:02 PM  

And when they went to arrest him, Peter drew his revolver and blew the servants ear off then double tapped him in the chest

Blogger Brad Matthews November 21, 2017 11:09 PM  

That's a pretty accurate description. Crude, but entertaining

Blogger Lazarus November 21, 2017 11:09 PM  

The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

AB.Prosper wrote:We talk about capital T truth here quite a bit, if something makes no logical sense , it may not be true.

Reductio Ad Absurdum isn't the only criteria but when truth is in play, it a very good tool to use

Expressed that way the Christian origin story is nearly as silly as say the Norse one with people being licked from ice by a magic cow


Your example has no more relation to the Christian origin story than the Flying Spaghetti Monster has to any concept of God, even pagan ones.

That is why it is absurd. It's narcissistic linguistic posturing.

Anonymous von Bludd November 21, 2017 11:20 PM  

We also have to keep in mind that the question is not "will the Truth triumph?" because the Truth has already triumphed; the Serpent's head has already been crushed by the Seed of the woman, all power and authority is already wielded by Him, and He is already enthroned at His Father's right hand. No, the question is "how long will He tolerate the rebels, which we once were among, on His earth and continue to hold forth His offer of grace until the door of the Ark is shut?". Be of good cheer Christian, He has already overcome the world. Our duty is to strive, by His grace, to be faithful unto death to the doctrine of the Apostles, as contained in Scripture. Yes we still fight, but not because the outcome is in question; the matter has already been settled.

Anonymous Kyle Kiernan November 21, 2017 11:46 PM  

There are times when I, rightly or wrongly, disagree with your, but at least you correctly use "tenets" and that is a light in a dark world some days.

Anonymous AB.Prosper November 21, 2017 11:50 PM  

Lazarus wrote:Your example has no more relation to the Christian origin story than the Flying Spaghetti Monster has to any concept of God, even pagan ones.

That is why it is absurd. It's narcissistic linguistic posturing.


All religions have to start somewhere, If FSM adherents start treating it as a real relgion rather than satire it will be a religion though there will be changes

As for this slightly inaccurate description, are an insider, not an outsider , you won't see it that way

deconstructed though that is voided of deeper emotional meaning , its still mostly true other than the zombie part which was offensive and somewhat inaccurate and the sin as evil force while present in some Christian strains and in some variations is an inaccurate description of what is a rift with the creator

yes there was a talking snake, a magic rib woman (or a clone perhaps) eat of my flesh is part of communion and yes Christianity does promise eternal life, some sects here on Earth, some in another dimensions and while I wouldn't call prayer telepathic contact, it could qualify

All religions are silly to outsiders and someone who isn't Christian or is post Christian is going to see the absurdity if they look.

Oh well.

The meaning isn't in the words, its in the heart but smart educated people like most Euro folk can be hard ti reach that way

Religions mostly thrive either because people are suffering or because everyone else is doing it and they reach critical mass and either people convert or are made to convert . This really hasn't changed.

In time they fade some. Christianity being dominant in the west for a millennium or so may be reaching end of life. Given people have lived in Europe without it for tens of thousands of years and did fine, its not essential though its useful

Caveat , if the .alt right adopts the 16 points it is an essential component

Funny enough the crowd effect seems to be the case with child bearing as well, people tend to have more children in modern conditions if everyone else is having more children but that is another story

Blogger Elder Son November 21, 2017 11:54 PM  

@99 @100

Gosh! If only the disciples and apostles would have thunk it! Sure would have saved them a lot of trouble. Seriously though, some of you come off as if it is some magical talisman every time the "creed" comes up. I'm thinking it has something to do with the Catholic fuzzies some of you get. Because Peter. And, so roman-tic. And you can pray to dead Saints to pray for you. And the Mormons got it all backwards!

Something about, nitwit.

Blogger SemiSpook37 November 21, 2017 11:57 PM  

As I was raised as a churchian Catholic, completely in the mess of the Novus Ordo, it never really occurred to me that things were out of order, even in our little corner of the world, until a couple of things happened (this was about 13 years ago):

1) On a visit with my paternal grandparents, I was sporting a copy of the Daily Roman Missal, when my grandmother made an off-handed comment as we were waiting for the Mass to start. All she said was, "You know, it wasn't always like this.", to which I asked what she was talking about. She went on to explain that most times when you went into a Catholic church, when she was my age, it was silent, reverential, and had the feeling that there was something else going on.

Needless to say, this sparked my interest in discovering Tradition, and the Traditional Latin Mass and sacraments. The rest, as they say is history. And for the past 13 years, I'm downright angry that I was lied to by a number of prelates, both priest and bishop, over what my spiritual Tradition was, and how it was tossed aside because the SJWs that were able to influence Pope John XXIII and Paul VI to basically change the Faith overnight to be (IMHO) "just like everyone else", re: Protestants. That's not necessarily a knock on those sects, just an overall observation.

2) I think the seeds of a lot of the desire and revival of the Traditional practices of the Catholic Faith were sown by the actions of Benedict (Ratzinger), including the issuance of Summorum Pontificum over ten years ago. Has the majority of the Faith caught on to this? Obviously not, but then again, much of the growth in terms of vocations has been amongst the more Traditional societies, such as the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP), the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest (ICKSP), the Canons Regular of St. John Canitius, among others. Even more mainstream orders such as the Dominicans are starting to see growth in vocations due to their slow return to their Traditional doctrines and practices. People are discovering this and realizing that not only did they not fully understand what it truly is to be Catholic, but the rewards appear to be that much more significant if you do follow the Traditional practices. I don't see this as an accident. Again, it should be upsetting everyone in the pews.

3) The rumors surrounding the 2005 conclave that elevated Ratzinger to the papacy insist that he was a compromise given who the SJWs really wanted: Jorge Bergolio. Yes, they eventually got him with the 2013 conclave, but the problem is that Ratzinger's tenure, you could argue, is sort of like what Trump is attempting to do now, which is to try and stem the tide of some sort of catastrophic correction. The ironic thing in Bergolio's case is that each time he's doubled down, it's drawn more attention to the actual problem, and has brought more resistance to his worldly desires for changes to actual Truth. I mean, for as wishy washy as the majority of American bishops are, the fact that they shut out Cupich from the chairmanship of the Pro-Life council in Baltimore last week was a definite rebuke, and there were rumblings over the application of Amoris Laetitia, as well.

Then again, leave it to a Jesuit to overplay his hand, just like they always do.

I know I'm rambling, but even when you look at the Nicene Creed (or the Niceno-Constantinoplian Creed), the basics for what we believe are right there. A lot of what we're dealing with today is an outright rejection of this, based on a lot of "muh feels" from those that are in charge. It's really quite embarrassing to see them try to sweep this under the rug and think nobody's going to notice.

Blogger Lazarus November 22, 2017 12:02 AM  

AB.Prosper wrote:In time they fade some. Christianity being dominant in the west for a millennium or so may be reaching end of life. Given people have lived in Europe without it for tens of thousands of years and did fine, its not essential though its useful

Yes quite fine. If we define "fine" as nasty, brutish, and short.

Blogger Jed Mask November 22, 2017 12:10 AM  

"The Alt-Right form of Christianity is no different than the Alt-Right form of science and the Alt-right form of history. It is the true and uncorrupted form that is not being worn by its enemies as a skin suit."

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

Nope.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2017 12:47 AM  

An atheist bitches about Christianity. News at 10.

Blogger VFM #7634 November 22, 2017 1:15 AM  

I'm downright angry that I was lied to by a number of prelates, both priest and bishop, over what my spiritual Tradition was, and how it was tossed aside because the SJWs that were able to influence Pope John XXIII and Paul VI to basically change the Faith overnight to be (IMHO) "just like everyone else", re: Protestants.

@125 SemiSpook37
I believe that one major reason the Catholic Church has the worst conversion balance of any major religion is because, while Protestant sects practice Protestantism, the Catholic Church attracts interest only because of the Faith it's supposed to safeguard, but instead is doing its hardest to ape a mainline Protestant sect like the Episcopalians or Lutherans.

IOW, prospective converts to Protestant sects are looking for Protestantism, but prospective converts to the Catholic Church (or heck, even cradle Catholics) are looking for Catholicism, but getting mainline Protestantism, and so end up never converting at all.

Anonymous AB.Prosper November 22, 2017 1:18 AM  

Lazarus wrote:AB.Prosper wrote:In time they fade some. Christianity being dominant in the west for a millennium or so may be reaching end of life. Given people have lived in Europe without it for tens of thousands of years and did fine, its not essential though its useful

Yes quite fine. If we define "fine" as nasty, brutish, and short


Europe had highly evolved civilizations that were not Christian that created beautiful sophisticated architecture ,art, music, engineering and sustained themselves perfectly well.

I agree that they were more brutish in some ways than Christendom, well till the inquisition came and the thirty years war and all that but they got by

Despite that I think a return to Christianity in Europe would be a good thing on practical grounds alone . True or not, its a tremendous force for good.

That does not mean that people will want it and right now that is what matters. When the most Christian nations become much more natal than the secular ones I will know its in recovery. Appointing Christ King of Poland is well and good but no babies, no future and thus far the religious fervor hasn't translated into fertility

By comparison, "Do it for Denmark" helped a bit on those grounds and actual Swedes, 3/4 of which have no religions are near replacement and it would take a tiny bit more to kick them up and over

Blogger Elder Son November 22, 2017 1:20 AM  

Catholic "tradition" is my 14th great-grandfather Dr. Rowland Taylor being burned at the stake on Feb 9, 1555. And I am pretty sure it will become "tradition" once more. A man named John Bradford kept him in cheer while in prison. As providence would have it, my 10th great-grandmother Francis Taylor, through Rowland Taylor, married my 10th great-grandfather Richard Bradford.

Anonymous TheBoom November 22, 2017 2:04 AM  

The Orthodox church seems to be the only one that creates a culture that consistently innoculates citizens from cultural Marxism.

http://www.unz.com/akarlin/huge-pew-survey-of-eastern-europe/

Blogger Thad tuiol November 22, 2017 2:06 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Thad tuiol November 22, 2017 2:07 AM  

Unless your women are fully controlled and know their place in your church, I ain't interested in your church...

Anonymous Looking Glass November 22, 2017 2:09 AM  

This is going to sound a tad spergy, but the problems aren't the theology. The "problem" is always how you get to the point where the theology is such a wreck and evil runs wild.

The problem is completely how the "Church as Institution" is setup. One Man teaching in a room with 5 other people is a Church. One Man standing in front of a building they own talking to 1000s is a corporate officer saying corporate doctrine. Churches fail; Revelation points to that directly. All church setups dictate that can't be possible, which means the churches are setup on pure fantasy.

Protestant churches don't scale up; RCC can't keep the corruption out; Orthodox are bound to their native cultures. There are deep "points of failure" no one wants to talk about in the way Churches are operated, and that's the biggest issue. If a Church can't fail, it isn't possible to serve the Lord to its fullest.

Anonymous Homemade Christians are what failed Calvinists look like November 22, 2017 2:46 AM  

VD wrote:Tell me again about how the triumph of truth is inevitable.

The truth ALWAYS wins out in the end for the same reason gravity does. The time frame is not your lifetime. And the Nicene Creed, if true, will continue to be relevant to the universe even if not one single person on all the Earth believes in it.

You clearly don't grasp that it is Iceland and the European Nations that are in danger due to their false beliefs, not Christianity and not Jesus Christ.

Even this falling away was predicted.


You should start letting the rest of us in on the truth that your massive IQ has compared to gravity.

(Let's leave aside the fact that how gravity works is still kind of up in the air. Will the Voxiverse pet astrophysicist appear to explain how she can fully explain gravity? Tune in!)

You relocated to Europe because your giant IQ told you that America was doomed, and that Europe was safe. It turns out that America is highly susceptible to Mexicans. It also turns out that Europe is highly susceptible to Africans.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine November 22, 2017 2:55 AM  

"Reductio Ad Absurdum isn't the only criteria but when truth is in play, it a very good tool to use"

And yet half of the points in your reduction were patently false. Zombie Jesus? Obviously not. You made it absurd by intentionally disregarding both accuracy and precision. It's worse than me making the statement that atheists don't know where babies come from... which is at least ultimately true, because the end of that chain of questions ends with "I don't know".

"As for this slightly inaccurate description"

No. Massively inaccurate, for multiple reasons some of which even YOU are perfectly aware of. Stop lying.

"Religions mostly thrive either because people are suffering or because everyone else is doing it and they reach critical mass and either people convert or are made to convert . This really hasn't changed."

Hedonism/atheism mostly thrives because people feel like they can and are doing okay for themselves, a temporary delusion. This really hasn't changed.

"some of you come off as if it is some magical talisman every time the "creed" comes up."

Because businesses and militaries don't use "best practices" lists in exactly the same way.

"I'm thinking it has something to do with the Catholic fuzzies"

You're thinking wrong obviously. I've got no fuzzies for Catholicism.

"An atheist bitches about Christianity. News at 10."

It's inevitable really. Something calls them out as being sick sad people and they have to attack it because they can't defend themselves by any means.

"Europe had highly evolved civilizations that were not Christian that created beautiful sophisticated architecture ,art, music, engineering and sustained themselves perfectly well."

Like the moors? There aren't any other options there that actually exist in the complete absence of Christianity. Flat out lie again from you.

"That does not mean that people will want it and right now that is what matters."

Give it fifteen to twenty years.

"Catholic "tradition" is my 14th great-grandfather Dr. Rowland Taylor being burned at the stake"

Because Catholicism is all of Christianity. Because one Catholic is exactly the same as the next. Because evil has no habit of pretending to be good. Yeah, no.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine November 22, 2017 3:04 AM  

As far as truth always winning, it's this simple.

Like a piece of engineering, if it's not done right it will not hold up under specified levels of stress. If your information is not based on reality and you run with it, you will eventually crash and burn.

It could equally be said that truth always wins as that everything and anything else necessarily loses eventually.

Anonymous Icicle November 22, 2017 3:11 AM  

Sumeria is not the problem. Babylon is. They may both be Mesopotamian, but that is like conflating Pharaoh's Egypt with Islamic Egypt.

Blogger VD November 22, 2017 3:18 AM  

Nope.

Zip it, cucky. Everyone can see the fruits of your Fake Churchianity. You can't even defend it except to snark.

Blogger VD November 22, 2017 3:22 AM  

With apologies for the crass and irreligious words but the Atheists see it this way

Atheists see religion the way the colorblind see the rainbow. They are literally brain-damaged. Atheism is nothing more than a form of autism.

How Christianity get back from that slump is way above my pay grade

Really? When you've already seen how it grew from 11 scared men?

Blogger S1AL November 22, 2017 3:36 AM  

'Gosh! If only the disciples and apostles would have thunk it! Sure would have saved them a lot of trouble. Seriously though, some of you come off as if it is some magical talisman every time the "creed" comes up. I'm thinking it has something to do with the Catholic fuzzies some of you get. Because Peter. And, so roman-tic. And you can pray to dead Saints to pray for you. And the Mormons got it all backwards!'

Demonstrating that you have no understanding at all. The point of the Creed is to express basic, shared doctrines common to all Christians. It's a basis for unity between ALL denominations. It gives us a baseline of shared belief by which we can form a basis for debate on the esoteric matters, or by which we can reject the old heresies.

How about this: do you have an actual problem with anything in the Creed? Because I can point you to the scriptures on which it's based.

Anonymous Unamused Flyover Resident November 22, 2017 3:40 AM  

As an Anglican in America, I worship from the 1928 Book of Common Prayer in a service that C.S. Lewis would find congenial.

Anonymous AB.Prosper November 22, 2017 4:09 AM  

VD wrote:With apologies for the crass and irreligious words but the Atheists see it this way

Atheists see religion the way the colorblind see the rainbow. They are literally brain-damaged. Atheism is nothing more than a form of autism.

How Christianity get back from that slump is way above my pay grade

Really? When you've already seen how it grew from 11 scared men?


Its not the 1st century , human nature hasn't changed but our circumstances have and this means it doesn't mean it will be repeated though I do agree with Azure here that it ought to be given 15 or so years.

Ignoring the theology here, its going to require a herculean effort on the part of the faith to rebuild to any real strength in the baring some collapse that brings on a revival

Because a faith can come from a remnant once but that does not mean it will again.

As to your assumptions, atheists are brain damaged . I wouldn't use that word myself given how many people on Earth have no religion and little religious impulse, self described 250-500 million and likely more

Much of the higher IQ population low time preference crowd is increasingly less religious though some of that drive is being pushed into ecological issues.

My guess is that the amount of religious instinct varies and how it manifests is circumstantial and socially driven. It may come back in a different form or very little at all.

As I've often said, we'd better have a back up plan in case Christianity in the West goes the way of the Roman religion from similar cultural forces

Hard Atheism doesn't seem to be a productive mutation overall though, from an evolutionary POV though given it doesn't go away, its not harmful. I have no idea what would happen if humans didn't have the instinct .

I'll note also you do not have to be an atheist to find the absurdity in every religious doctrine especially ones you don't adhere too either



Blogger VD November 22, 2017 4:27 AM  

As to your assumptions, atheists are brain damaged . I wouldn't use that word myself given how many people on Earth have no religion and little religious impulse, self described 250-500 million and likely more.

Very well, let's say "brain-disordered" instead. It's not an assumption. It is a hypothesis that has been successfully observed in at least two subsequent scientific experiments. Given that 1.5 percent of US males have Autism Spectrum Disorder, it should it is reasonable to conclude that 3.5 percent of the global population suffers from Religious Impulse Disorder, which appears to be a milder form of autism.

You do realize that autistic people are far more likely to be atheists, right? In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if you were on the spectrum yourself, based on your past comments. The fact that you can't see or feel something that others do doesn't mean that you are smart, it means that you are handicapped.

Anonymous Looking Glass November 22, 2017 4:27 AM  

@144 AB.Prosper

I'd say Atheist are more like those that are Night Blind than Color Blind. Their minds can't process things over 99% of the rest of the world does.

Though the problem is you're assuming "religion" is a structured belief system similar to a "high" Christian Church. It isn't. Surveys show Japan is the least religious country on the planet, but that's self-assessed. The Japanese are one of the most religious group of people on the face of the earth, but they just view it as culture and not religion. But it's very definitely religion. Praying at a shrine is never devoid of its spiritual content.

Blogger VD November 22, 2017 4:28 AM  

As I've often said, we'd better have a back up plan in case Christianity in the West goes the way of the Roman religion from similar cultural forces.

There is no backup plan. If Christianity fades from the West, you will be ruled by demons.

Anonymous AB.Prosper November 22, 2017 4:51 AM  

Azure Amaranthine wrote:Europe had highly evolved civilizations that were not Christian that created beautiful sophisticated architecture ,art, music, engineering and sustained themselves perfectly well."

Like the moors? There aren't any other options there that actually exist in the complete absence of Christianity. Flat out lie again from you.


Don't be ignorant or distort what I said

Roman, Celtic, Greek , Nordic, Anglo Saxon to a lesser or greater degree all met the criteria i gave and there were a others populated by White people who were civilized and not Christian in any way.

None of us would like the civilization but if that religion never existed or left the Middle East if it did , there would still be European civilizations doing some recognizably European things

Christianity created great beauty but it didn't create all beauty.
Azure Amaranthine wrote:And yet half of the points in your reduction were patently false. Zombie Jesus? Obviously not. You made it absurd by intentionally disregarding both accuracy and precision. It's worse than me making the statement that atheists don't know where babies come from... which is at least ultimately true, because the end of that chain of questions ends with "I don't know

At no point does I don't know need talking snakes, scary monsters with flaming swords, magic apples, women made from a guys rob or dead people walking around. On top of that even if some of these things exist , you don't need Christianity to have them

As for Original Sin, that is an idiotic idea on its face . Some people are harmful to other people but most people act just as you would expect banding primate with a limited ability to handle complex social interaction to act.

Most humans aren't broken and the world isn't evil.

Anonymous Looking Glass November 22, 2017 4:51 AM  

On the issue of "we can't get the fire back!" defeatism, we just went through this with Trump. Hillary was "inevitable". Nothing could stop the Hill Train! Why wasn't she 50 points ahead?

Can you not see the Propaganda? It's the exact same stunt everyone falls into. If you're a Christian, get it through your thick skull that you will be *HATED*. That's the nature of this, which means everyone lies about (and to you) constantly. They tell you it can't be done, they roll out experts that say "this is the best way" to operate a Church and they run propaganda campaigns against you every hour of every day. They would not do this if they didn't assume that they are always playing a weak hand.

On the historic trend analysis, we're coming off the absolute low-point of Western Christianity. The 1880-1920 range will be focused as the nadir in a few hundred years. The attempt to "industrialize" the Church nearly destroyed it, hollowed out the congregations and turned the place into a house of "ain't it nice to get along?" cultism. There's a lot of work to burn the decay away, but the reality is we're on the upswing. What's happening in East Asia will also change things massively.

Anonymous Icicle November 22, 2017 5:28 AM  

If Christianity fades from the West, you will be ruled by demons.

Unless the Father has something else up his sleeve, cf. the Book of Habakkuk.

Blogger Wanderer November 22, 2017 5:37 AM  

AB.Prosper wrote:Most humans aren't broken and the world isn't evil.

How young are you?

Anonymous Icicle November 22, 2017 5:46 AM  

and the world isn't evil.

Maybe he is channeling his inner Leibnizian theodicy?

Anonymous vfm November 22, 2017 5:50 AM  

"You should start letting the rest of us in on the truth that your massive IQ has compared to gravity.

(Let's leave aside the fact that how gravity works is still kind of up in the air. Will the Voxiverse pet astrophysicist appear to explain how she can fully explain gravity? Tune in!)"


More disingenuousness, who'd have thunk it? A relativist requests immutable truth! Go read the bible.

Blogger VD November 22, 2017 6:00 AM  

Most humans aren't broken and the world isn't evil.

You are observably wrong. You don't even have a functional definition of evil, and yet you don't hesitate to make arguments upon things you not only don't understand, but actively claim do not exist.

All are fallen. All are broken. And the Silent Planet is ruled by an evil spirit.

Anonymous Icicle November 22, 2017 6:19 AM  

At no point does I don't know need talking snakes, scary monsters with flaming swords, magic apples, women made from a guys rob or dead people walking around. On top of that even if some of these things exist , you don't need Christianity to have them

You sound like you are channeling Celsus.
https://infogalactic.com/info/The_True_Word

As for Original Sin, that is an idiotic idea on its face .

There's many versions. I can think of Augustinian, Pelagian, Cassian, Lutheran, ect.

Blogger Groggy November 22, 2017 6:36 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Groggy November 22, 2017 6:38 AM  

Roman, Celtic, Greek , Nordic, Anglo Saxon to a lesser or greater degree all met the criteria i gave and there were a others populated by White people who were civilized and not Christian in any way.

They definitely were NOT atheists.

Blogger Groggy November 22, 2017 6:41 AM  

At no point does I don't know need talking snakes, scary monsters with flaming swords, magic apples, women made from a guys rob or dead people walking around. On top of that even if some of these things exist , you don't need Christianity to have them

The Bible isn't a science textbook not least because science did not exist until recently.
If you try to read it as a science textbook you are not reading it correctly and furthermore you will be inclined to fall into the trap of making science into a false religion.

Blogger Groggy November 22, 2017 6:45 AM  

As for Original Sin, that is an idiotic idea on its face.

Sometimes upon a shallow inspection, an incredibly profound truth could appear idiotic upon literal analysis.

Please have a look at this if you have an open mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ifi5KkXig3s

Blogger Groggy November 22, 2017 6:46 AM  

Most humans aren't broken and the world isn't evil.

That is profoundly false.

Blogger James Dixon November 22, 2017 6:47 AM  

> So, by this creed, thou shalt be saved?

Why don't you try reading it and comprehending it before demonstrating to all and sundry that you have no idea what you're talking about?

> How Christianity get back from that slump is way above my pay grade

It's above all of our pay grades. But it only took 12 (counting Paul).

> Gosh! If only the disciples and apostles would have thunk it!

From which I take it you've never heard of the Apostles' Creed.

> Catholic "tradition" is my 14th great-grandfather Dr. Rowland Taylor being burned at the stake on Feb 9, 1555.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, I see.

> There is no backup plan. If Christianity fades from the West, you will be ruled by demons.

It's arguable it already has and we already are.

> Most humans aren't broken...

Seriously? This is a chasm so deep there's no crossing it.

... and the world isn't evil.

Agreed. It isn't. But its ruler is.

Anonymous TheTruthIsAlwaysUnacceptable November 22, 2017 6:48 AM  

As for Original Sin, that is an idiotic idea on its face.
Truth is always idiotic to those who reject it. We see that here all the time.

Anonymous TheTruthIsAlwaysUnacceptable November 22, 2017 7:06 AM  

von Bludd wrote:Yes we still fight, but not because the outcome is in question; the matter has already been settled.

He who knocks at the door (Revelation 3:20) will not always knock and the day of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:20) will eventually end. The offer has a limited shelf life.

Anonymous TheTruthIsAlwaysUnacceptable November 22, 2017 7:24 AM  

Aeoli Pera wrote:Pitcrew wrote:@10

So, those in Iceland are being led astray, originally weakened by a false church (Churchianity)? Sumerian and Babylonian- seems awfully close to me.


I doubt you could find ten people in that entire country who've even heard of the Nicene Creed.

Tell me again about how the triumph of truth is inevitable.


Truth has already triumphed and the servants of the Master are bringing in those from the highways and byways to the wedding feast (Luke 14:23), for a time until the door is shut.

But eventually there will be a falling away since the Day of the Lord will be like the days of Noah (Luke 17:26) when the thoughts of men were continually evil (Genesis 6:5) and it will be difficult to find faith on the earth (Luke 18:8).

It is possible that time is short. It is definitely shorter than it was yesterday and the day of salvation will eventually end.

Blogger Thomas Henderson November 22, 2017 7:57 AM  

If Christianity fades in the West, you will be ruled by demons.

One of the advantages of Orthodoxy in the East - and to some extent the Roman Catholic Church in Poland - is that they have already done this and bought the t-shirt: first against the Mohammedans and then the Communists. Tempered by the fires of heresy and apostasy, what emerged was a much more masculine and refined faith, bled pure of impurities.

For an interesting perspective read Matthewes-Green's article, "Why Orthodox Men Love Church",

http://orthochristian.com/42390.html

To quote from the article:
In contrast to some other churches, "Orthodoxy offers a robust Jesus" (and even a robust Virgin Mary, for that matter, hailed in one hymn as "our Captain, Queen of War"). Several used the term "martial" or referred to Orthodoxy as the "Marine Corps" of Christianity. (The warfare is against self-destructive sin and the unseen spiritual powers, not other people, of course.)

Jesus attracted among his entourage fishermen, zealots, tax thugs, women seeking his approval, and eventually even Roman emperors. Only an alpha male extraordinaire could accomplish that. You would never know by what is proclaimed in western churches today.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer November 22, 2017 9:02 AM  

@165

There is a thriving industry among Christians of books for men, purporting to explain to Christian men how they can be both men and Christian. The books actually tell men how to conform to current social trends regarding how men are supposed to act and try to make the Christian men feel good about doing so.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer November 22, 2017 9:08 AM  

Regarding creeds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPg0wBP5k6M

Blogger Thomas Henderson November 22, 2017 9:23 AM  

@166

This industry is tailored primarily to the White Knights and Simps among us who need their wives/girlfriends/sisters permission to be men.

The type that Dalrock sometimes talks about:
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2017/10/17/he-had-to-check-his-theology-with-the-boss/

The western church lost men about two generations back. Perhaps less existential questioning and more God as the ultimate Father theology is in order.

Blogger Thomas Henderson November 22, 2017 9:47 AM  

@167

The Episcopal Church still believes in Creeds. Except now it makes up its own s#!t,

I believe in God, our Mother Bear,
source of all being.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God’s wisdom made flesh,
along with Sophia, the church, and all that live in wisdom.
Born of the bad-ass womanist liberation theologian, Mary,
suffered under the systems of oppression of this world,
was crucified, died, and was buried,
forever joining in solidarity with those murdered by Empire.
On the third day, the women declared him risen;
signifying God’s “No” to oppression.
He points to God our Mother Bear,
who works in this world, calling for justice for the poor and oppressed.

I believe in Sophia Spirit,
Christ’s body, the church,
the communion of saints,
the grace to reject this world’s systems,
hope for justice in the future,
and renewed life everlasting. Amen.


Out with George Washington and in with 'Mother' God,

http://www.wnd.com/2017/10/church-out-with-george-washington-in-with-mother-god/

Talk about being ruled by demons.

Anonymous TheTruthIsAlwaysUnacceptable November 22, 2017 9:50 AM  

Thomas Henderson wrote:@166
The western church lost men about two generations back. Perhaps less existential questioning and more God as the ultimate Father theology is in order.


Or as C.S. Lewis would say in "The Abolition of Man", they are men without chests.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer November 22, 2017 9:53 AM  

I knew a guy who quit the Episcopal Church and converted to Eastern Orthodox over that kind of crap.

Blogger Thomas Henderson November 22, 2017 9:59 AM  

Pity.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine November 22, 2017 11:13 AM  

"As for Original Sin, that is an idiotic idea on its face . Some people are harmful to other people but most people act just as you would expect banding primate with a limited ability to handle complex social interaction to act.

Most humans aren't broken and the world isn't evil."


Says someone who grew up in a Christian-influenced, highly privileged culture during a time of relative peace. Someone who apparently had a rather good family whose main vice was likely acedia and little or nothing else.

You can't see because you don't wish to see, and no one will be able to make you see or convince you otherwise until you suffer because not seeing is pleasurable to you and ephemerally convenient. That suffering is likely to happen, and rather soon in the grand scheme of things.

As for your list of civilized people groups... Celtic, Nordic and Anglo Saxon were considerably less civilized or advanced than you seem to be thinking during their pre-Christian stages. Greek was largely pre-Christian. Roman was both pre-Christian and post-Christian, but the post-Christian Rome rather quickly became Christian. In addition, you seem to be referring to cultures more than countries or civilizations.

I've had the "civilized" argument recently. The word "civilized" can be quite arbitrary, especially in contrast to the more antiquated equivalents of the word "barbaric". Yes, you're abusing that arbitrary nature, and yes we can tell.

"Pity."

Not really. I'm in the process of doing the same thing.

Blogger Thomas Henderson November 22, 2017 12:01 PM  

@173

Pity, not so much because you or he are making the move to orthodoxy. That's understandable.

Pity, because an one time fairly traditional Christian communion has been fully converged.

Anonymous kHz November 22, 2017 12:01 PM  

I took Thomas Henderson's pity remark as sarcasm.

I too am in the (somewhat) same process.

Anonymous Alex November 22, 2017 12:49 PM  

#51, as someone who has failed to find a decent church after searching for years, I am intrigued.

Anonymous Gen. Kong November 22, 2017 12:59 PM  

Groggy wrote:
Roman, Celtic, Greek , Nordic, Anglo Saxon to a lesser or greater degree all met the criteria i gave and there were a others populated by White people who were civilized and not Christian in any way.

They definitely were NOT atheists.


In fairness to Prosper, he never stated they were. He merely pointed out they were not Christians. If Christianity never made it to Europe, it might be part of the Ummah, or something else altogether. In any case, most (not all, but most) of the extant great art, culture, etc. would not be there. Something different would be but that's all just speculation at the end of the day - regardless of how interesting such speculation can be at times.

Anonymous Gen. Kong November 22, 2017 1:07 PM  

@169. In retrospect, it's God's blessing that Washington's memorial was removed from such a den of pure evil. The only thing really surprising out the removal was that it took them so long. The Episcopal Church has been a converged coven of witches for decades running. They really need to get rid of all crosses as well. Perhaps a plump gold-plated mother bear at the top of the steeple (which should likewise be replaced by a pyramid with the eye of Soros) and a golden pedobear behind the altar. Burn it with fire.

Blogger SirHamster November 22, 2017 4:29 PM  

AB.Prosper wrote:We talk about capital T truth here quite a bit, if something makes no logical sense , it may not be true.

Reductio Ad Absurdum isn't the only criteria but when truth is in play, it a very good tool to use

Expressed that way the Christian origin story is nearly as silly as say the Norse one with people being licked from ice by a magic cow

Without resorting to internal references why believe either?


What is, is. Seeking a "logical" sense is looking at sense, not logic. You are sneaking a subjective element into a supposedly logical endeavor.

Did you fool yourself?

Your ability to mock something as silly is not evidence of anything except your own emotional and irrational approach towards the subject.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents November 22, 2017 6:13 PM  

The Episcopal Church has been a converged coven of witches for decades running

SJW's wearing a church skinsuit = fake church. Not the only one.

Anonymous AB.Prosper November 22, 2017 6:38 PM  

As for Original Sin, that is an idiotic idea on its face . Some people are harmful to other people but most people act just as you would expect banding primate with a limited ability to handle complex social interaction to act.

Most humans aren't broken and the world isn't evil."

Says someone who grew up in a Christian-influenced, highly privileged culture during a time of relative peace. Someone who apparently had a rather good family whose main vice was likely acedia and little or nothing else.

I've lived a very different life than you think much less stable and less middle class happy than you might guess.

One point I'll grant you sloth of all types is my vice. I tend to think unless me and mine are gaining from work, why bother working harder than you need to? Time on this Earth is fleeting, after you have some put away its far better to enjoy life than to bust you ass for what ends up being someone else's gain (family exempted)

Work sucks than you die and no one has died ever saying wish I'd spent more time at the office

With people that's still a Christian assumption of how others perceive things

Conflict is part of life, its sucks to be on the receiving end of it, it can mess some people up mentally and physically but its just what people do.

I don't expect people to be anything but people or for people who don't know me to give a shit about me unless either they are altruistic (which Christianity is awesome for encouraging) of my tribe, its their job to pretend to be or they get off on it.

People mostly with a few exceptions, are self and family interested. Its no more a sin than a bacterial infection is, its the nature of the human animal.

We can and maybe should fake caring about other people but odds are unless you are within my cognitive circle or of my tribe or whatever the current theory here seems to be called Dunbar's Number (around 150 people ) I'm not a person to you. I don't resent that , it is what it is.

Its the same thing when I read about some corporate malfeasance , why on Earth wouldn't they do that? Its a collection of ideas that mimic a high functioning sociopath which I see as a person with a very low cognitive circle . Of course they are crooked

The lucky thing is we have a system in place, yes truly derived from Christianity that allows us to trust some people we don't know . This is why I'm hardly opposed to Christianity . Its fantastic software and its truth is not relevant in the least to that function.

We also have State that steps in and that doesn't require much of a religion. They resolve disputes because they perceive their interests to do so. Its hit and miss but in general most regulation has worked out in my favor, so there is that

I fully concede most pre Christian and non Christian societies were ands are low trust , no argument here but this tells me nothing about the religions metaphysical truth only that some combination of Northern and Western DNA and the religion increased trust levels some in some areas though not all as witnessed here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Basis_of_a_Backward_Society

And SirHamster

maybe we don't understand each other. I'm interested in the closest I can get given human limitations to objective reality .

Does Christianity include supernatural elements or not and if it does, why are its more convincing than anyone else's?

If it does not than why bother in a society that is no longer at its core a White Christian one its just a philosophy and Buddhism or Stoicism works as well on an individual level.

Blogger SirHamster November 22, 2017 11:32 PM  

AB.Prosper wrote:And SirHamster

maybe we don't understand each other. I'm interested in the closest I can get given human limitations to objective reality .

Does Christianity include supernatural elements or not and if it does, why are its more convincing than anyone else's?

If it does not than why bother in a society that is no longer at its core a White Christian one its just a philosophy and Buddhism or Stoicism works as well on an individual level.


"We"? Speak for yourself. You didn't even try to dispute my criticism.

"Supernatural" is another attempt to sneak in subjective measures while pretending to objectivity.

What makes communication with an anonymous stranger at the speed of light natural? What is natural about flying at supersonic speeds in metal containers?

Christianity has the strongest claim to the Truth. The bait and switches in your arguments make your position weak.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington November 22, 2017 11:46 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington November 22, 2017 11:48 PM  

@181, AB.Prosper

"maybe we don't understand each other. I'm interested in the closest I can get given human limitations to objective reality .

Does Christianity include supernatural elements or not and if it does, why are its more convincing than anyone else's?"

The problem you're going to keep running into is that your(and everyone's) ability to detect objective reality on your own is pretty poor.

You do have a way out of this, however. You can actually try Christianity out and see what it's effects are. If you try praying for a month or so, you may find that your life will change in a positive way. ;)

Cheers,

Blogger michimartini November 23, 2017 1:32 PM  

He told them off in Jesus' name, and he says that they just flew up in the air and in all directions like hit by a hurricane.

If you can do that, sure, don't carry a gun.

If you can't, carry a gun.


Exactly! You perfectly summed up my own thoughts about he subject. If you think about it: Such a guy is armed to the teeth. Those are weapons that can bring down empires (and they did). But if you are not trained in their use, better bring a handgun, even if it will be tainted by potential collateral damage.

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