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Sunday, December 17, 2017

The Fake Right exposed again

Even The Weekly Standard and The Nation have figured out that the Fake Right doesn't actually have anything to do with genuine right-wing ideology:
Writer Donna Minkowitz describes a secret meeting organized by alt-right figure Richard Spencer that she crashed in mid-November at an organic winery in Maryland. Upon arrival, Minkowitz writes that she was surprised to find that the discussion centered not only on the usual brown-shirt Jew-hating you might expect from neo-Nazis, but also on what she says is a “new emphasis on economic issues” that she found “seductive.”

Why seductive? Because the white supremacists’ views on economic issues sound a lot like, well, like views espoused by the Nation and Democratic party progressives. In what could pass for Bernie Sanders campaign literature, she quotes Spencer saying “I support national health care” and railing against “the trillions spent in insane wars.” Minkowitz also quotes Spencer blasting the GOP tax plan as “stupid .  .  . Reaganite nostalgia” and supporting a universal basic income. Another speaker decried that everything is seemingly becoming “corporatized and capitalized.” Wait—is this a white supremacist conference or a New York Times editorial board meeting?

She quotes another speaker exclaiming that “2018 is going to be the year of leftists joining the white-nationalist movement!”
As I've pointed out before, "white nationalism" is not nationalism, it is actually anti-nationalist imperialism. And just like every other previous pan-ethnic attempt, from Hitler's pan-Germanism to Nasser's pan-Arabism and Henry Sylvester Williams's pan-Africanism, Richard Spencer's left-wing, imperial pan-Caucasianism will go absolutely nowhere and will continue to fail to appeal to nearly all white people.

Imperial pan-ethnicism is nothing new. Pan-Africanism has been around since 1900 and yet the various African nations and tribes remain entirely distinct. Pan-Arabism was a little more successful, as the United Arab Emirates is still around and the United Arab Republic of Iraq, Syria, and Egypt lasted three whole years from 1958 to 1961.

Nations persist for a reason. Multinational empires fall for the same reason. And the manifold evils of the European Union are just a few of the many reasons that imperial pan-ethnic empires always fail, usually sooner rather than later.

The Alt-Right is inevitable because the waves of history are now strongly trending towards nationalism. The Fake Right will be an empty shell within four years; the only reason it even survives now is because it is a useful bogeyman for the mainstream media in the mode of David Duke and the Westboro Baptist Church.

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100 Comments:

Blogger McChuck December 17, 2017 8:12 AM  

Gee, why would (((Minkowitz))) be concerned about "Jew-hating", almost to the exclusion of all other concerns? It couldn't possibly be because she has a tribal affinity that is stronger than her identification as an American?

And seriously, what part of "national socialist" do these people not understand? Hillary is international socialist, Bernie is a national socialist. Spencer agrees with them on the economic portion of politics - they're all leftists in that regard. He's just more of an Americanist than (((Bernie))), for obvious reasons.

Blogger Smokey Dust December 17, 2017 8:12 AM  

I watched this weeks Alt right chat with Spencer and wondered when they were going to talk about anything that was actually right wing. Then the video ended.

Anonymous JAMES December 17, 2017 8:15 AM  

The more I listen to Spencer the more I hate him.

His podcast attacking the inspiring Polish nationalist march as "not really nationalist" because Polish nationalists aren't anti NATO was vomit inducing.

I wish the clown would just go away, but the idiot thinks he's winning because he gets media mentions.

Yeah winning just like David Duke has for decades. Well done Dick.

Blogger Koanic December 17, 2017 8:15 AM  

Yet they are not wrong that some degree of ethnic solidarity is necessary for racial survival in the era of trans-oceanic transport, and that some degree of socialism is necessary since Mount Sinai. Land and people cannot be ruthlessly exposed to the free market. Coopt their partial truths and they will have nothing but weakness, crassness and lies.

And I daresay most white nationalists are anti-EU if not anti-USA, Spencer's soyboy tendencies notwithstanding.

Blogger Miguel December 17, 2017 8:16 AM  

The fact that Soencer is anti-Christian in his atempts to "save the white race" is what made me see that we might be in the presence of a fake.

Like it was said, "white nationalism" erases all the distinct cultures and traditio

Blogger Miguel December 17, 2017 8:17 AM  

......traditions whites have created.

Blogger Lovekraft December 17, 2017 8:23 AM  

There's only so much deception the public schools and media can dump on the populace before it collapses under its own weight. Enough people see and hear about contrary narratives that a healthy skepticism sets in. And, when this happens, the left doubling down only accelerates the process.

An early tool I used was to watch videos of people with the volume down and study their faces, eyes and mannerisms to find out various 'tells'.

Anonymous Aaron December 17, 2017 8:28 AM  

Very true, vox.

Nationalism is the will-to-power of a particular group.

Things like basic income, anti calitalism, national health care show a concern for morality, compassion, kindness, and fairness.

But morality only cones into play when there is a diminished will-to-power.

That's why nationalism and morality don't mix, as being based on two opposite desires, and Spencers weird blend of extreme nationalism and attempt at morality - I hardly know what to make of it, it's merely a garbled confusion.

The illusion is that one can have fairness and morality towards ones own group but will to power nationalism towards other groups.

That's spencers mistake.

In reality as vox notes this has failed - u must have a totally consistent vision and cannot mix and match.

Even jews prey on their own and support each other only insofar ad it benefits all of them and not one whit more.

Blogger Aeoli December 17, 2017 8:34 AM  

http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2012/07/millenials-affiliation-chart.gif

Socialism is where white atheists turn for religion.

Blogger Aeoli December 17, 2017 8:40 AM  

Incidentally, that graph indicates (to me) an inflection point at 1/3 unbelievers. Reminds me of the 2/3 inflection point where whites took up identity politics. Gotta be some psychohistory here.

Blogger Thane Eichenauer December 17, 2017 8:40 AM  

I have never read any piece of Bernie Sanders campaign literature that said anything like: railing against “the trillions spent in insane wars.”

Anonymous Jeff December 17, 2017 8:41 AM  

@1 McChuck - Bernie is a national socialist

Bernie is a (((Nazi)))

Blogger Aeoli December 17, 2017 8:41 AM  

Contra atheists, pagans turn to Luciferianism, e.g. Japan.

Blogger McChuck December 17, 2017 8:44 AM  

White nationalism only makes sense in America, where it shows the difference between whites and all the other races that have glommed onto the country like ticks. It's not quite precise, of course, but it's good enough to start with. After all, even the blacks here call themselves "Americans", and we actual Americans have to call ourselves something. So, until a better term comes along to represent actual American nationalism (without including everybody and their cousin's sister's brother who call themselves Americans), white nationalism will have to do. Even though it has a bad connotation with the fence sitters.

Anybody got a better term that's catchy, obvious, short, and reasonably well recognized? Alt-right is very nearly there, but it describes a whole series of nationalist movements. There must be a simple way to describe 'real' Americans, like there is to describe 'real' Poles or Czechs or Hungarians, without plausibly including the blacks, Jews, Mexicans, and Muslims that live here and hold US citizenship.

Blogger Aeoli December 17, 2017 8:44 AM  

I have never read any piece of Bernie Sanders campaign literature that said anything like: railing against “the trillions spent in insane wars.”

This topic is one of Vox's disgust triggers, leave it alone and let him vent.

Blogger McChuck December 17, 2017 8:47 AM  

@11 George Soros is a confirmed, unrepentant (((Nazi))), and proud of it.

Blogger Lovekraft December 17, 2017 8:48 AM  

Over at dalrock, the thread on VoxDay's MGTOW observation is up to over 460 comments.

The Dark Lord sneezes and half a world away, a hurricane takes hold.

https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2017/12/14/no-respect/

Anonymous Looking Glass December 17, 2017 8:49 AM  

The thing that finally clicked for me about the NeoCons is that they're just 18th Century Imperialists that are pissed off they aren't running an Empire in the 18th Century. But they're not the only faction that feels that way.

That's what all of the versions of Globalism are about: everyone wants their Empire, and the native instinct for Americans is to want nothing to do with it. (Let's also not forget that, as Americans, we're utterly terrible at running an Empire. Probably something to do with wanting to fix the stupidity of the nations that were invaded.) All we're really seeing is an argument over what form it should take.

This isn't going to end well, but it'll end. That's just reality.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 17, 2017 8:53 AM  

If the Fake Right didn’t exist, the GloboHomo Leftist Elite would have to create it.

There's nothing more useful than the fake adversary you create just for the spectacle of vanquishing it publicly.

Anonymous Lara Mycroft December 17, 2017 8:55 AM  

"There's only so much deception the public schools and media can dump on the populace before it collapses under its own weight. Enough people see and hear about contrary narratives that a healthy skepticism sets in."

Witness: global warming. Proponents are in a major panic, because more and more Americans are beginning to realize that "climate change" is about money and power, not fictionalized environmental effects.

Trump taking global warming off the priorities list is YUGE. It demonstrates that he has broad public support for this, regardless what the lying media has to say about it.

Blogger Purge187 December 17, 2017 9:02 AM  

"Socialism is where white atheists turn for religion."

Awesome. Might be posting this to Facebook.

Blogger J Curtis December 17, 2017 9:11 AM  

The evidence appears overwhelming that Richard Spencer is a Deep State plant used as a honey pot to attract *actual* racists and oddballs. Link

Blogger Otto Lamp December 17, 2017 9:16 AM  

Left wing economics & race supremacy.

Spencer may be the only actual NAZI in existence.

Anonymous Mr. Rational December 17, 2017 9:29 AM  

dc.sunsets wrote:There's nothing more useful than the fake adversary you create just for the spectacle of vanquishing it publicly.
Or as agents provocateurs, not that the left wouldn't just use false-flag ops like the "Nazi" at Charlottesville.

I do have to wonder how TDS keeps its stable of writers.  They post a lot, a bunch of stuff every day of the week.  A lot of it is on current events that are worth keeping abreast of; it is interesting and more than a bit funny.  This has got to be costing money.  Where does it come from?

Blogger VD December 17, 2017 9:34 AM  

This post is most definitely not a bait-and-switch. Make that sort of false claim again in a comment and you'll be spammed.

Anonymous Elmer Fudd December 17, 2017 9:50 AM  

@karsten

"I do support minimum-wage laws, because I certainly believe that employers will offer people wages they can't live on, if they can get away with it."

"Get away with it" -- as if they're committing a crime?

You obviously have never run a business. First, businesses do not have an obligation to take care of their employees. Employees have an obligation to take care of themselves. It's called "self sufficiency."

Second: You don't understand pricing structure. Workers are paid what they are worth to a company, and no more. Employees are free to seek work elsewhere if they believe they are being paid too little.

Third: If you raise the wages of the lowest tier of workers, you must then raise the wages of ALL OTHER workers within that business proportionately. This is the "ripple effect" of minimum wage laws, and results in companies having to reduce staffing, hence creating more unemployment.

Fourth, if you're an employer and you are FORCED to pay people what they are not worth, you will then be certain to use more skilled workers for those positions, laying off the less-competent workers. This is why teen unemployment increases in minimum-wage environments.

Fifth: When companies are forced to raise wages, they often raise prices to compensate. These prices are paid for by consumers, who often choose not to pay the higher price, hence reducing sales, hence reducing income, hence leading to layoffs -- or even the company's bankruptcy.

I could go on and on, but why don't you lose the "feel good" attitude and study this before you virtue signal to the rest of us. And regarding the people "too dumb or unmotivated to seek other work," you just prove a point: why should they be given more money if they're that retarded?

Grow a pair, dude.

Blogger VD December 17, 2017 9:54 AM  

The fact that capitalism, in its current form, is globalist does not mean that socialism is an answer, for the obvious reason that socialism is intrinsically globalist and always has been by definition.

Socialism is even more anti-nationalist than capitalism because it is constructed around transnational class consciousness. The Fake Rightists who babble about it seldom know, let alone understand, even the very first thing about actual socialist ideology.

Blogger Bodo Staron December 17, 2017 9:58 AM  

Your main objection is to the "white nationalism" part? Yes, that's not going to work. It's not even working within majority white countries.

His other points are not bad: Not spending tons of money on wars sounds good.

Universal basic income. Charles Murray came out with an updated plan. It involves abolishing all other social security and subsidies. His book on the topic is quite interesting, also why he's proposing it.

Ethnicity is a factor in all of this, what might work in once country might not work in another.

Blogger JC December 17, 2017 9:58 AM  

The thing that Spencer and others don't seem to realise is that a pan-white country would still have the same problems in the end. I'm not old but I grew up in a part of Australia that was mostly Anglo-Irish and relations between the recent Greek and Italian immigrants were hardly cordial at times. Before that, there were problems between the English (Anglican) and the Irish (Catholic) populations. The only reason things have gotten better between these groups is because of intermarriage (like my family) but mostly because we have imported even bigger problems since. So if Spencer hypothetically got his socialist ethno-state, we'd pretty soon have those of Northern European ancestry wanting to throw out the less productive or perhaps vice versa.

Anonymous Looking Glass December 17, 2017 10:07 AM  

@23 Mr. Rational

I came to the conclusion after the 15th outbreak of homosexual Jews being wannabe Neo-Nazis that most of these movements have institutional support from various different groups with an agenda to keep them around. And a surprisingly large amount of Jewish support, but not in an agent provocateur way.

No, they exist as honey pots for gay Jews. And probably mostly from the Women supporting the funding as well. Jews are many things, but Jewish Women expect their sons to have at least some children and anything else is unacceptable. So, the Neo-Nazi groups sort out the gay ones really early in the teenage years.

Obviously, it's useful for others to work as a trap and it keeps certain federal agencies employed, but its primary purpose is to cull out certain Jewish factions.


@28 JC

https://infogalactic.com/info/Austria-Hungary

They've tried this before. It ended pretty badly, though setting out to make a "white" nation wasn't the intent.

Blogger Dave December 17, 2017 10:08 AM  

"Pan-Arabism was a little more successful... " purely because it united Arabs around their shared hatred for Israel.

Anonymous Patron December 17, 2017 10:23 AM  

Bodo Staron wrote:His other points are not bad: Not spending tons of money on wars sounds good.

What, like socialised healthcare? Yeah, because that's worked out so well in the past...

Universal basic income. Charles Murray came out with an updated plan. It involves abolishing all other social security and subsidies. His book on the topic is quite interesting, also why he's proposing it.

Leaving aside the likelihood of any Western establishment abolishing all welfare programs (short of economic collapse, of course), UBI = free resources for r-types. I'm sure that'll end well...

Blogger Koanic December 17, 2017 10:25 AM  

> The Fake Rightists who babble about it seldom know, let alone understand, even the very first thing about actual socialist ideology.

Capitalism-socialism is a useful spectrum encompassing all possible economic regimes. If you object to its informal abuse of definitions, with what will you replace it?

Anonymous PaulR December 17, 2017 10:25 AM  

I don't get it. A oouple years ago Vox was saying stuff like:
"Left and right don't matter. All that matters is nationalism v globalism"
"Your skin is your uniform"
I also picked up on the whole concept of "no enemies to the right of me" from this blog.

But then all of the sudden Vox changes tack and goes off against "Hitler did nothing wrong" because it's not true. Same thing against Anglin because Anglin wants to blame everything on the jew when that's objectively not true. But meanwhile Vox publishes a book titled "SJW's always lie". Isn't it the same? It's all rhetoric designed to make a point.

I'm not a Spencer fan, but he does seem to want to help white people. So I can't call him an enemy. Now he's getting stupid and talking to the media (learned that here also), and the media is saying he's a giant lefty and we're supposed to trust (((them)))? Spencer might be a bit dumb and soft, but I don't think he's the enemy.

Blogger Thucydides December 17, 2017 10:27 AM  

@28
This is a problem with going too far the other way. Than ancient Spartans are a great example of this. Because of the way their "purity" laws were structured, the highest class "Similars" were continually shrinking in numbers. Members died in wars, or could be expelled for various offences to the Spartan State. There are various estimates as to how many "Similars" existed in Sparta, but the number was always relatively small, and always declining.

The Spartans could get away with this for a while, since the economy was largely agrarian and the farming was done by slaves, and military obligations were also placed on lower class citizens known as the "Periokoi". Although there was no mechanism for them to advance to become "Similars", they were well aware of the nature of the Spartan State and economy, and understood that they would need to uphold their military obligations in order to be able to put down slave revolts.

So any "ethno-state" will probably face similar issues in determining just "who" belongs, and finding mechanisms to ensure people don't just "die out" (like the modern Japanese seem to be doing).

Anonymous Patron December 17, 2017 10:31 AM  

@33

Perhaps it's because Vox came to the conclusion that "Hitler did nothing wrong", or tolerating the Daily Stormpooper crowd, was no longer a good strategy?

As for "no enemies to the right", that still holds. But Anglin, Spencer et al are not to the right of Vox - very far from it. If you want to go to the far right you get to either ANCAP-land or an actual patriarchy (no votes for women, or non-property owners, if you even have voting at all, blah blah). Spencer's racial socialism is just a wee bit different.

As for Spencer, his intentions matter, but not nearly so much as his results. Which... have not been good.

Anonymous Coalfiredbrisket December 17, 2017 10:37 AM  

Vox, any chance you could give your thoughts on father Coughlin? It seems clear that there simply aren't enough white people in this country who value freedom for libertarian nationalism to work.

Anonymous Patron December 17, 2017 10:38 AM  

Thucydides wrote:@28So any "ethno-state" will probably face similar issues in determining just "who" belongs, and finding mechanisms to ensure people don't just "die out" (like the modern Japanese seem to be doing).

Not really...

1. "Were 3/4+ of your grandparents French, and do you identify as French?" (Nuremberg Laws method)
2. DNA testing. You have to be X% French to qualify for the French ethnostate.

In the West at least, #1 will be the easier one, given all the records out there about people's ancestry, but you could do #2 for immigrants who want to enter.

The issue with the Japanese seems to be more a cultural / economic issue than anything like the Spartan Similars. I mean, there's no non-Japanese underclass, just for starters.

Blogger VD December 17, 2017 10:45 AM  

"Left and right don't matter. All that matters is nationalism v globalism"
"Your skin is your uniform"
I also picked up on the whole concept of "no enemies to the right of me" from this blog. But then all of the sudden Vox changes tack


I didn't change tack. I did, however, learn that the Fake Right is anti-nationalist as well as being left-wing. The Fake Right is not to the Right of me or most of the readers here, to the contrary, it is very far to the Left.

It seems clear that there simply aren't enough white people in this country who value freedom for libertarian nationalism to work.

Libertarianism anything is dead. Libertarianism is a utopian fantasy no more credible than communism.

Blogger pnq8787 December 17, 2017 10:46 AM  

It seems to me that collectivism is inherent to the concept of a "nation". Today, both liberals and conservatives put individualism at the core of their belief structures. For example, liberals put the freedom of individuals to behave in socially degenerate ways foremost. They say we must judge by individual character and not by race or creed regardless of human nature or expediency. (The only exception to this being to denigrate the white race.) Conservatives put individualism at the core of their ideology with their belief in free trade and let the best immigrant win with little or no regard for the less able of their own nation. I suspect that those G-d blessed folk with the high IQs promoted the concept of individualism on both the left and the right and made it central in order to, as they say, "atomize" the white race, with the purpose of dissolving it away. I don't see how a discussion who is legitimately "left" and "right" furthers the cause of white-nationalism or omni-nationalism. As has been pointed out, a nation can observably survive Communism. It is not clear that a nation can survive Civic Nationalism (i.e. global individualism). My impression was that most of the fans of this blog are more concerned with the survival of our nations than with the normy-tier right/left political discussion.

I know I haven't proven anything, this is just my current view of the situation. I welcome any explanations that are more helpful.

Blogger Howard Stone December 17, 2017 10:53 AM  

Is Spencer a secret soy boi?

Anonymous Jeff December 17, 2017 11:03 AM  

From the "4th Generation Warfare Handbook":

"All over the world, citizens of states are transferring their primary allegiance away from the state to other entities: to tribes, ethnic groups, religions, gangs, ideologies and "causes"."

Perhaps Spencer is attempting 4G warfare, moving beyond states towards some kind of "pan-Europeanism"?

Blogger seeingsights December 17, 2017 11:08 AM  

'Imperial pan-ethnicism is nothing new. '

One example to add to the examples that Vox Day gave is the pan-Slavist movement. You can read up on that movement on InfoGalactic and other sources.

One of the main reasons that movement fizzled out is because one group of Slavs, the Poles, did not like the domination of the movement by another group of Slavs, the Russians. Pan-Slavism was really a veneer over Russian imperialism. To this day, the Poles don't care for the Russians.

Another example is that Arab Revolt of 1916. Read some of the comments to the YouTube video of the movie Lawrence of Arabia. Some comments from Muslims are along the lines of, "Why did you Arabs go against your fellow Muslims?" Here, the aim of securing independence from the ruling Ottoman Empire and creating a single unified Arab state trumped religion. Heck, here Arabs gladly accepted assistance from Christians (the British) against another group of Muslims.

Anonymous Mastermind December 17, 2017 11:18 AM  

Not sure how the quoted excerpt is supposed to prove Spencer et al are fake right. They prove they are fake libertarian, but I don't think they ever claimed that mantle.

Blogger seeingsights December 17, 2017 11:36 AM  

@43

The views of Richard Spencer differ in important respects to the governments of the Visegrad Four countries, and to the populists/nationalist parties in Western and Northern Europe, and also Austria.

Blogger beerme December 17, 2017 11:47 AM  

White nationalism is stupid. Any ideology that lumps together Southrons with Yankees is doomed to a spectacular failure.

Anonymous ZhukovG December 17, 2017 11:54 AM  

Both Communism and Libertarianism assume the same historical end, 'The Withering Away of the State'.

Communism seeks this through a form of eventual perfection of Man, often referred to as the 'New Soviet Man'.

Libertarianism is if anything more deluded, as it assumes that Man needs no improvement and is by nature already Libertarian.

I still call myself Nationalist Libertarian, which I define as follows:

Within the National-State, the greatest amount of personal liberty will be afforded to the members of the State's Nation. However, no liberty or policy shall exist which is likely to harm or diminish the State's Nation.

Further, there is no moral obligation to extend equal personal liberty to citizens who are not members of the State's Nation.

Anonymous patrick kelly December 17, 2017 11:56 AM  

I'm not so sure we've seen the globalist/progressive A game yet. They have not had to bring it out of the closet and shake the dust off in a long time.

Blogger Matthew December 17, 2017 11:58 AM  

dc.sunsets wrote:If the Fake Right didn’t exist, the GloboHomo Leftist Elite would have to create it.



thunder-stealer.

Anonymous Mastermind December 17, 2017 12:08 PM  

@44 I know, I just don't understand why vox quoted that part because aside from maybe basic income the economic policies listed in the actual quote are popular with most of the right and far right.

Anonymous Gen. Kong December 17, 2017 12:13 PM  

The fact that Spencer invites (((fake news))) like The Atlantic and pole-dances for them should give any of his nationalist followers a clue. That said, the 'right' / 'left' paradigm is pretty much meaningless now. The real split is between nationalism and globalism. Spencer seems to be arguing for a 'globalism-lite' position.

That said, if anyone thinks mega-capitalists like these folks are our allies, they are even dumber than Spencer (who increasingly looks like William F. Cuckley version 2.0). Likewise, there's nothing nationalist about endless wars being waged by the Fake Banana Empire around the world - which Trump has not only done nothing to stop, but actually fueled (more soldiers to guard the poppy-fields, signing onto 600 million in military assistance for the Soros-backed regime in Ukraine to gin up war with Russia).

His podcast attacking the inspiring Polish nationalist march as "not really nationalist" because Polish nationalists aren't anti NATO was vomit inducing.

There's nothing nationalist about NATO. It needs to be dismantled as it's nothing more than muscle for the genocidal globalist agenda as we saw in the Balkans in the 1990s. The Poles who marched are nationalists (and should not have been criticized openly for the error) but they apparently don't understand that the Fake Banana Empire will crush them and force them to accept all the invading dindu and kebab when push comes to shove. They have been massively stupid to embrace the EUSSR and NATO, both overtly globalist organizations devoted to erasing nations like Poland and participate in its wars of empire around the world. (What possible national interest does Poland have in Afghanistan??)

Different nations are going to be nationalist in their own way. The utopian ghost-dancing about the "free market" (it's actually a rigged market) - which some here still seem to indulge in - is not such an article of faith elsewhere in the world. Do the libertardian ghost-dancers here somehow think that the likes Disney, Goolag, Apple and all these other Satanic towers of SJW-owned racketeering are the same as some hapless Christian bakers??

Spencer should be ignored as he may well be a deep-state operative. Even if he's not, his positions are at best incoherent. Greeks are not the same as Poles, but NATO's purpose is to erase both nations for the globo-homo agenda. There is not a single mega corporate entity that does not push and endorse the SJW globalist agenda. People like Cook, Iger and Llord Bankstein need to be fed into woodchippers, not praised. They're the worst type of parasite. It's entirely possible that some nationalists are going to be more socialist in terms of economic policies than many ghost-dancing Murikans would be comfortable with. That does not mean they would be Venezuela.

Blogger Cloom Glue December 17, 2017 12:18 PM  

@39 pnq8787

I think you are attempting to use "individuals" as a framework of Liberals and Conservatives, so that collectivism can win by default. That individualism is a very artificial usage.

The conservative idea of limited-government sees the family "safety-net" decisions being made by individuals in the family unit, and the local government making decisions pertaining to city issues, and farther away government making decisions, with limited resources, for larger collective issues. It is decentralised decisions, not purely individualist, like how leftists slam it.

The Liberal-left replaces families and individuals with the central government and it is collectivist. Describing these Liberals as individualism overriding ethnic diversity tribalism is very awkward, just so national socialists can claim their collectivism is something different.

The diversity was brought in, only because they come from family irresponsibility notions in their culture and thus they are ready-made collectivists.

I first heard Mark Collet (of the Tara/Bre/Steven discussion-ring) use that notion of collectivism as a contrast to individualism. It made me think he is leftist too. I am not sure yet.

Blogger pnq8787 December 17, 2017 12:46 PM  

@51 I have no problem with the idea of "limited government" in itself. The problem, as I see it, is that conservatives have based their arguments for limited government on the notion of the primacy of the individual. This primacy of the individual is the hairline crack which has been used to destroy the basis of the nation-state. The conservative has no defense against it since it is the foundation of his philosophy. It seems to me that he concept of the nation-state requires an acknowledgement of the collective. The refusal of some people to accept this stikes me as autistic.

Anonymous RobertL December 17, 2017 12:52 PM  

Spencer is undoubtedly building a handsome nut offshore from creating a deliberately incoherent Right/Nationalist/White platform, as an antithesis to the Left/Globalist/Multicultural incoherence. Two sides, mutually intolerant, ruled by feelz and virtue signalling. He is as much Poop towards the things he advocates as any Progressive Stack advocate was towards #Occupy.

Anonymous BBGKB December 17, 2017 12:54 PM  

I have never read any piece of Bernie Sanders campaign literature that said anything like: railing against “the trillions spent in insane wars.”

It was in the part about how we have not spent enough on wars for Israel,

Anonymous Neo December 17, 2017 1:12 PM  

"Pan-white" only appeals to Amerimutts. It has no appeal in Europe.

European countries have strong national identities. And often they have strong sub-identities (eg. Catalonia wants to secede from the rest of Spain). Just "white" is not a strong enough identity for them to unite around. Maybe they'll unite temporarily against the Muslims and Africans. But what about after that? Nothing. They'll want their own countries, not an even more bloated EU.

"Pan-white" Amerimutts don't understand this on a fundamental level because they are too mixed. They should focus on pushing American identity (which American whites already care about), instead of trying to push the DOA "pan-white" meme.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( the Original Militant Apathist ) December 17, 2017 1:14 PM  

when you pedastalize Hitler, eventually you're going to start taking a look at his Economic and Government policies.

and those are all ... you know ... Socialist.

just like i've been pointing out forever.

Blogger lowercaseb December 17, 2017 1:14 PM  

VD wrote:Libertarianism anything is dead. Libertarianism is a utopian fantasy no more credible than communism.

When you are a child, it's a sad day when you figure out that Santa Claus isn't real...

Libertarianism is the college age version of him. I know I was disappointed when I did the math.

Blogger Aeoli December 17, 2017 1:14 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Aeoli December 17, 2017 1:16 PM  

This primacy of the individual is the hairline crack which has been used to destroy the basis of the nation-state. The conservative has no defense against it since it is the foundation of his philosophy. It seems to me that he concept of the nation-state requires an acknowledgement of the collective. The refusal of some people to accept this stikes me as autistic.

^^^

For our fight is not against our flesh and blood, but with the heavenly ghosts of the Copernican revolution.

Blogger Koanic December 17, 2017 1:20 PM  

Pan-white is just as real when facing African invasion as pan-human is when facing alien invasion.

Blogger Aeoli December 17, 2017 1:20 PM  

The only smart thing Richard Spencer ever did was to cut his hair in a way that said "We see what you did there".

Everything since then has convinced me that fags should be banned from libraries.

Blogger Aeoli December 17, 2017 1:21 PM  

Pan-white is just as real when facing African invasion as pan-human is when facing alien invasion.

It appears the alien invaders had the sense to slow-boil us though.

Blogger Akulkis December 17, 2017 1:51 PM  

@17

Whenever anyone tries to tell me that the U.S. is imperialistic, I ask them these questions:

1. Don't all empires collect tributes from their vassal territories?

2 A) Where's the tribute from Europe and Japan and Korea and Taiwan, etc.?

2 B) Not only where's the tribute from these countries, why are WE PAYING OUT OF OUR POCKETS TO PROTECT THEM?

Our international affairs are something, but certainly not an Empire under any meaningful definition of the word.

Open borders and a horde of foreigners within does not an empire make.

Blogger Akulkis December 17, 2017 1:54 PM  

"I do have to wonder how TDS keeps its stable of writers. They post a lot, a bunch of stuff every day of the week. A lot of it is on current events that are worth keeping abreast of; it is interesting and more than a bit funny. This has got to be costing money. Where does it come from?"

Following the money upwards ... small "think tanks" which gets grants from larger charities which are all front-organizations funneling money from George Soros.

Blogger DonReynolds December 17, 2017 1:57 PM  

Vox is correct. "White Nationalism" is not nationalism in the least, nor is it ethnic. Heck, many Turks are "white" but they may not be your automatic fast friend.

I try to warn the "white nationalists" in this country that their biggest opponent (and the people who want them dead) ALSO happen to be WHITE (Leftist, Liberals, Anarchists, Communists, Democrats).

The white nationalists have a big blind spot when it comes to their own worst and most determined enemies, who also happen to be white Americans.

If you fail to achieve your white ethnic state, it will not be because of the Negroes, or the Hispanics, or the Muslims, or the Hindus.....none of which could ever keep whites from creating a white country. ONLY other whites will be there to beat your head in....in exactly the same way they did at Charlottesville.

Blogger pnq8787 December 17, 2017 2:04 PM  

@63 I would say that the tribute is in all the goods and services of actual value that U.S. citizens buy from overseas. They pay with U.S. petro-dollars that are backed by the good faith and credit of the U.S. military kicking the shit out of any country that would sell oil in any other denomination. The U.S. maintains hundreds of military bases overseas. The sham is pretending that our military presence is to protect those countries from "evil doers". Part of their tribute is allowing the U.S. military to station troops on their land.

Blogger Aeoli December 17, 2017 2:21 PM  

The white nationalists have a big blind spot when it comes to their own worst and most determined enemies, who also happen to be white Americans.

This is an internal religious issue for them, comparable to the issue of borders in Christianity.

Anonymous Nobody in Particular December 17, 2017 4:47 PM  

One may want to consider the possibility that a world empire will come into being anyway.
The only reason why it hasn't been tried yet is that technology hasn't allowed it. The progress of technology has made larger and large empires possible: from Sargon to the British Empire, it's a clear tendency. We now have tracking devices, incredibly faster travel, videoconferencing and telepresence, the wide spread of English, automated translation, soon ubiquitous surveillance, Agent Orange, and nuclear weapons --- useful for keeping the population under control and for punishing rebels.
People are curious and will try everything at least once, so many will be open to the idea ("because it's there"). But there are actual reasons for wanting it: global solutions to global problems: pollution, global warming, and especially the proliferation of genocidal weapons. The only sure way to prevent an attack is to control every place in the world; even poor and peripheral countries aren't harmless.
These are not necessarily good reasons, because a world empire is probably not the solution, but they could be very successfully used to peddle and justify it. By the time the empire's generals try to settle their succession fights with nuclear decapitation strikes and some people realize they've been had, it'll be too late. People will have to try it first in order to understand exactly why it doesn't work. And then the lesson will be forgotten in a few generations and they'll try again. A world empire will probably recur once every few centuries, in the future.

Anonymous Nobody in Particular December 17, 2017 6:10 PM  

In many such closed systems, as the whole Earth is now becoming, eventually there arose some all-encompassing empire. The Mughals almost did it in India, then the British tried again and succeeded. The Chinese have had their empire many times over. In Europe there were one "global" empire that lasted for centuries and several ephemeral ones.
The main obstacles to a world empire are geography and logistics (poor communications and epidemics that wiped out besieging armies), which are no longer so important nowadays.
Who is going to rule this world empire? The most plausible current candidates are Americans, Islam, Europe, China, and Russia.
I'd still bet on the US: they have English, are still somewhat in denial about their empire (earnestness is good and a somewhat hands-off attitude served e.g. the British well), and have a proven assimilation mechanism, which will allow all their imperial subjects to become American.
Massive assimilation hasn't happened lately because "democratic" (mob) politics still matter and ethnic pressure groups can get out the votes --- and, on the other side, the old Americans are resentful of the trespassing homines novi.
However, as soon as the civil wars start and the people with the guns take over, such considerations will be of secondary importance. Eventually, everyone may become American for tax purposes. This happened in the Roman Empire and will happen again if we are lucky.
The other main candidate is, I think, Islam. It has a universal language (classical Arabic), a proven assimilation mechanism (throughout history, many of their armies were either made of, advised by, or led by recent converts), and a track record of world conquest.
However, Islam is less united than NATO, which is saying something, and they have been consistently losing since the 18th century. If they don't get their act together quickly (which they're trying), they're more likely to serve as the main foil to the world empire, like the Persians. But this time, the issues that prevented the Romans from conquering Persia are irrelevant.
China is a contender, but there is currently no assimilation mechanism that allows one to become Chinese. Historically, after a foreign people conquered China, they adopted Chinese customs and established their main capital there. Thus, no matter who establishes the world empire, its capital will likely end up in Beijing or Shanghai at some point, if China is part of it.
Europe has a lot of problems, but nothing that cannot be solved in 20 or 100 years. However, the two world wars seem to have taken the will to power out of it. I see it more as a junior partner to the US, exactly as the Greeks were in the Roman empire.
Finally, Russia has much going for it, but has recently suffered a major defeat and seems culturally and demographically exhausted, after its 20th century efforts. Also, it has a smaller population than the other contenders.
So the US are currently the best bet.

Anonymous Mr. Rational December 17, 2017 6:40 PM  

Akulkis wrote:2 A) Where's the tribute from Europe and Japan and Korea and Taiwan, etc.?
They're buying our debt and/or holding depreciating US currency.  We exchange our paper for their stuff.

This is, as noted above, backed up by the US military.  Not for long, though; with oil sales now being settled in Renminbi or the like, the petrodollar's days are numbered.  When the world doesn't have to buy our debt we won't have the goods to play world policeman anymore.

Blogger LIONMAN184 December 17, 2017 6:41 PM  

Atheists aren't exactly known for being right-wing, presently or throughout history. In fact they're worse than (((them))) in my opinion because they're traitors to their civilizations(in-group) & heritage/traditions.

Blogger Koanic December 17, 2017 6:50 PM  

Somehow, though atheists cannot overcome a supposed absence of evidence to believe in a good God, they can ignore the contrary evidence to believe in the goodness of atheists.

Anonymous Mr. Rational December 17, 2017 8:16 PM  

Conventional theists will ever use the actions of cultists (unconventional theists) to tar people who truly don't believe and only want to be left alone to find whatever truth is comprehensible to them.

Anonymous Ivar December 17, 2017 8:20 PM  

The concept of White Nationalism was always intended to apply to conditions and circumstances in the United States. Most white Americans are amazingly confused when it comes to ethnicity. I live in Oklahoma, where many thousands of white people think they are American Indians. Many have Federally approved membership cards to prove it. People can joke about 'mutts' all day long, but the ethnic link to Europe is weak or nonexistent for most of us, even the ones who carry ethnic bloodlines relatively intact. Hence White Nationalism. It is mostly just a term of convenience.

Anonymous DEUS VULT December 17, 2017 8:24 PM  

You're on the right track but have something backward. It's the nation's state not vice versa. The nation is the people, the blood, the soil. The state is the people's organized government. Nation's State.

Blogger DonReynolds December 17, 2017 8:51 PM  

@69 Nobody in Particular
The Chinese have never had an empire and they have never had a desire for an empire, nor are there any Chinese who say they want an empire.

China has never been conquered by any foreign people. The only people who came close was the Mongols and they never established their capital in China. The Mongol capital was Tashkent (and Samarkand), which are nowhere near China.

The British had an empire for many years that spread over a good part of the globe and lost nearly all of it in less than a century. They are now a spent force in the world and unable to defend their own islands from invasion.

Americans are uninterested in an empire, no matter what the NeoCons say. The American tradition tends toward isolationism, not empire. None of the territories won in the Spanish-American war became US states and some were granted independence instead (Cuba and the Philippines).

Russia has made no effort to re-create the Soviet Union and no effort to recover the Warsaw Pact nations. They have made no effort to recover control of the central Asian republics either.

India is a Hindu nation surrounded by hostile Muslim nations (and China).

Islam is not a nation or an empire, nor has it ever been. Islam itself, is fractured and sharply divided. The Saudis are more likely to be on the side of the Americans and Israelis than on the side of Iranians. Indonesia is the biggest Muslim country in terms of population and it will not become an empire either.

There are no budding empires in the world and I seriously doubt there will be in the near future.

Anonymous Avalanche December 17, 2017 8:55 PM  

@10 "I have never read any piece of Bernie Sanders campaign literature that said anything like: railing against 'the trillions spent in insane wars.' "

That's because they were the wars for (((HIS people)))! Serving (((HIS people's))) desires! WHY would (((Bernie Sanders))) speak against Greater Judea fighting stupid deadly wars on behalf of (((Lesser Judea)))?

Dja catch the hints?

Anonymous Avalanche December 17, 2017 8:58 PM  

@16 "The Dark Lord sneezes and half a world away, a hurricane takes hold."

To which all Ilk say: "bless you Dark Lord!"

Anonymous Avalanche December 17, 2017 9:12 PM  

@41 "Perhaps Spencer is attempting 4G warfare, moving beyond states towards some kind of "pan-Europeanism"?"

Wrong direction -- 4GW is toward smaller manageable groups; blood or religious ties; "pan-anything" is a larger LESS-connected group!

Do you still have any loyalty towards the U.S. govt -- or do you attempt to stay small and unnoticed?

Anonymous Avalanche December 17, 2017 9:15 PM  

@45 "White nationalism is stupid. Any ideology that lumps together Southrons with Yankees is doomed to a spectacular failure."

NOT against NOT-Southrons and NOT-Yankees! My brothers and I against our cousins; my brothers and cousins against my neighbors; my brothers, cousins, and neighbors; against the state and so on. When (please God) we EVER get back to just Yankees and Southrons, we'll (maybe) know better then to draw better boundaries and observe them! To protect each against the other, the protect BOTH against everyone else!

Blogger rumpole5 December 17, 2017 9:35 PM  

Beerme does have a point. In fact, I've come to think that "white" is a rather sloppy amorphous term. I frankly would not really be too enthusiastic about my child hooking up with a celtic type like an Irish. Moreover, even in my own family there is a real ethical/moral gap between my father's German family who emigrated for economic gain in the 1860s and my mother's Anabaptist German family that emigrated in the 1730s to escape religious persecution. Even as a child I was aware that my mother's people possessed a moral polestar that my father's people lacked.

Blogger JaimeInTexas December 17, 2017 9:53 PM  

@76
When have these uSA was created in 1788 has it tended isolationist?

Anonymous Nobody in Particular December 17, 2017 10:32 PM  

DonReynolds:

This reply is so full of misinformation, I have to wonder what's the agenda behind it.

China was conquered several times by foreign peoples, most notably by the Mongols. The Qing, Liao, second Jin dynasty, and several others were non-Chinese. This is not to even mention the Europeans and Japanese, who conquered China in the 19th and 20th centuries. The capital of the Mongolian Yuan dynasty was Beijing. Almost all these conquerors assimilated within a few generations.

Americans have always been interested in empire, especially the antebellum South, which would have liked to conquer more of the Caribbeans and keep Mexico once conquered. America 2.0, after the Civil War, went about it differently.

Anyways, protestations are irrelevant. The Roman empire has a similar history. Before they officially became Roman provinces, many of the cities and states around the Mediterranean became Roman client-states first, from Massalia to Egypt. When it happened, for most, annexation was just a formality, e.g. the ruler left his state by testament to the Romans, as in Judea. For the American empire, we're still in the first stage, but there are quite a lot of American client-states around the world, Philippines included.

A prerequisite for further direct conquest is for the US to abandon universal suffrage, which may not be too far off. Universal suffrage was likely the main obstacle to annexing Cuba and the Philippines and certainly is an obstacle to successfully prosecuting wars to their conclusion, see each war since Vietnam. This is also why the antebellum South didn't mind further conquests: their voting laws were significantly more restrictive. Once the US become an oligarchy (some say we're there already) or a military dictatorship, things will be very different.

Russia tried from the get-go to recover its empire. This is what the Community of Independent States was all about. Just because the attempts are feeble and mostly unsuccessful so far, reflecting Russia's current weakened state, it doesn't mean they don't exist.

Also, are you sure that Islam has never ever been an empire?

Empire has its own logic and it may happen in spite of the most pious intentions/declarations of the conquerors. The British didn't exactly go looking for one (rhetorically, at least), but ended up with it anyway. If it isn't the US, then it'll be someone else. Even if you're uninterested in empire, empire is interested in you.

Blogger Jon December 17, 2017 11:08 PM  

Aeoli wrote:The white nationalists have a big blind spot when it comes to their own worst and most determined enemies, who also happen to be white Americans.

This is an internal religious issue for them, comparable to the issue of borders in Christianity.


Most White Nationalists (though there are also plenty of ignorant 'newbies' just like some in the Alt-Right who're 'newbies' and still ignorant) are very well aware that our worst enemies are "our own people". "Left" and "Right". To say otherwise is based in either ignorance or possibly the playing a part in all the various organized disinformation activities that saturate the web and comments sections (including Stormfront) of the Alt-Right and pro-White/European sphere.

Educate yourself before commenting to avoid appearing to be part of 'Deep State' or SPLC/ADL/JIDF/ANTIFA psyops and disinformation.

Blogger Jon December 17, 2017 11:13 PM  

Speaking of 'blind spots'. It seems far too many, including Vox here have so many that they're virtually blinded themselves.

Anonymous triatienance December 17, 2017 11:16 PM  

"Educate yourself before commenting to avoid appearing to be part of 'Deep State' or SPLC/ADL/JIDF/ANTIFA psyops and disinformation."

Education is not the hard part. That's the easy part. The problem for the alt right is once people educate themselves they realize that the alt right boogie man, he Jews, are not the problem at all.

Vox day and his folks keep trying to force the jewish issue. There is no issue. They are moving toward a cold cumuppance.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 17, 2017 11:33 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 17, 2017 11:38 PM  

It seems to me that collectivism is inherent to the concept of a "nation".

Only if you accept the Libertarian premise that there exists no possible state between Lubertarian Induvidualusm and slavery.

Blogger Jon December 18, 2017 12:03 AM  

triatienance wrote:Education is not the hard part. That's the easy part. The problem for the alt right is once people educate themselves they realize that the alt right boogie man, he Jews, are not the problem at all.

Vox day and his folks keep trying to force the jewish issue. There is no issue. They are moving toward a cold cumuppance.


Sorry, but that isn't accurate. Becoming knowledgeable and staying well-informed on these related issues can be a VERY daunting and time consuming journey for most. Also, the JQ (or as I prefer 'Jewish Problem') is equal to any other problem that can be discerned and/or debated. Anyone that denies that is woefully uninformed, blind and/or misguided. Or part of the various organized misinformation and disinformation campaigns I mentioned before.

I'll leave my initial response. But I do now see that you seemingly acknowledge them as an issue. I assume from the wording of your last sentence that you just think that it doesn't need to be addressed or identified and that they're going to 'face the music' of their treachery no matter what is said or done in regards to them. Well, I still don't agree with that completely. Though to an extent I do see so some validity in the statement.

Blogger Jon December 18, 2017 12:05 AM  

I was also unaware that "Vox day and his folks" were "forcing the jewish issue". I guess I must have missed that. Admittedly I'm not a regular "follower" though.

Blogger Meng Greenleaf December 18, 2017 2:28 AM  

RE: "Contra atheists, pagans turn to Luciferianism, e.g. Japan."
Thus is utter nonsense. Do you have any bases for your statement? Have you even visited Japan?

Blogger Aeoli December 18, 2017 4:13 AM  

Educate yourself before commenting to avoid appearing to be part of 'Deep State' or SPLC/ADL/JIDF/ANTIFA psyops and disinformation.

I'm many bad things, but I'm not a shill. Regarding the Alt-Right's pseudo-religion, I consider myself something like an authority.

Blogger Aeoli December 18, 2017 4:16 AM  

Only if you accept the Libertarian premise that there exists no possible state between Lubertarian Induvidualusm and slavery.

He means "collectivism" in the definition 2 sense, emphasis on the common good (vs. defn 1, communal command and control).

Blogger Aeoli December 18, 2017 4:28 AM  

I kinda miss the old days when I could say whatever I wanted. Just fly off the handle without a care in the world. The sacrifices we make :'-(. Ah well, the mods can still entertain themselves with rhe vestiges of my Omega rage.

Blogger VD December 18, 2017 4:52 AM  

I kinda miss the old days when I could say whatever I wanted. Just fly off the handle without a care in the world.

Those days never existed. You simply didn't want to say the things you want to say now.

Blogger VD December 18, 2017 6:04 AM  

Vox day and his folks keep trying to force the jewish issue. There is no issue. They are moving toward a cold cumuppance.

You have that completely backwards. Only it won't be a cold comeuppance, it will be a very warm one. The Jews have a problem in the West because they resent the European nations and they hate Christianity. They do not belong to the West and they need to return to their homeland in the East. Even the leader of the Jewish Nation has said as much.

Blogger Aeoli December 18, 2017 7:21 AM  

On the contrary, I still want to rage but now I write the post and then delete it because responsibility.

Anonymous c matt December 18, 2017 11:12 AM  

The Alt-Right . . . at an organic winery in Maryland?!!?

Blogger Cloom Glue December 19, 2017 7:41 AM  

Answering my own post @51:

I have a partial answer about whether the Tara/Steven/Bre/Mark Collet/plus-guest-Richard discussion ring is socialist. It is revealed in the discussion of healthcare in Britain, at 1:12:00 in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUBffztaVf4

It is dismaying for me when I realised "high trust, high IQ" and "common good" are catch phrases used for possibly accepting all things economic-leftist, and discarding liberty market economics, the hand of God, which is the Christian thing right. If the Alt-retard wins we are not much different than what we have now, meaning: I disagree with most of what was said in that segment.

It is economic ignorance, not limited government, not liberty, a powerful centralised decision making apparatus that is supposed to succeed because of high IQ atheism. I reject that.

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