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Friday, January 05, 2018

Narcissist vs psychopath

Anonymous Conservative explains how similar behaviors stem from very different sources:
My view of the Narcissist is their amygdala is too painful when triggered, and their brain is not able to handle the stimulation of it. The narcissists I have observed would actually see their brains melt down when triggered, and it would manifest in what looked like incredibly unpleasant physical symptoms, almost combining a seizure, and the gastrointestinal upset and sickness of a major illness.

The psychopath is the opposite. Their amygdala is not there, so they don’t really feel fear. I am reminded of the character Hannibal Lector in the book Hannibal. At a critical moment, man-eating hogs are released, and rush toward Hannibal, who is holding FBI agent Clarice Starling in his arms. But the pigs move around Hannibal, because he feels no fear, and the pigs detect it. Although the scene is fictional, that is how psychopath brains operate.

Now narcissists, out of necessity, eventually hack their brains by using a false reality to shut off that amygdala-pain. They develop the ability to force their brain to believe something untrue, just so their amygdalae will feel relief and their amygdala will not turn on. I am quite certain it begins in childhood. As children however, I am not sure if they force themselves to believe an untruth, and that eventually becomes more more common as their brain finds it relieves angst, or if the untruth, when contemplated, is so relieving their brain cannot tell it from the truth. From their amygdala’s perspective, that would feel the same as when we find believing a falsehood irritating, and as a result we seek relief when we default to truth.

But once a narcissist develops this hack, now their amygdala’s influence on the brain and behavior is very similar to how a psychopath’s amygdala influences the brain and behavior. It is as if the amygdala is not there. The psychopath just feels nothing, while the narcissist alters their beliefs until they feel nothing.
Interestingly enough, he concludes that narcissists are more dangerous than psychopaths, because psychopaths are too clueless to be able to conceal themselves or their deeds very effectively.

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115 Comments:

Blogger Harry Goldblatt MD January 05, 2018 6:08 AM  

Reminds me of Ted Bundy who ostensibly had a 130 range IQ, but was seemingly out of control and impulsive (to the point of recklessness). His good luck came from inept law enforcement that allowed him to run rampant for an extended period of time.

Blogger The Kurgan January 05, 2018 6:26 AM  

Interestingly enough, he concludes that narcissists are more dangerous than psychopaths, because psychopaths are too clueless to be able to conceal themselves or their deeds very effectively

I absolutely agree with this.
Also, a "psychopath" is not necessarily "evil" as such and can be quite heroic actually.

A narcissist on the other hand is always toxic.

Blogger James Jones January 05, 2018 6:27 AM  

I'd like to see some proper research on this subject because this is just conjecture.
But your ideas on the underdeveloped amygdala explain very well the behaviour of molly-coddled middle class millennials who become SJWs. The lack of struggle, conflict or suffering in their childhood leaves them with a smaller amygdala and they are unable to encounter views that upset their worldview.

It's one reason I am not so concerned when my daughter has a difficult or painful experience. In old parlance - it develops character.

Blogger VD January 05, 2018 6:33 AM  

I'd like to see some proper research on this subject because this is just conjecture.

It is not merely conjecture. What sort of "proper research" do you have in mind? Made-up peer-reviewed social science survey nonsense? How do you propose to quantify narcissism and psychopathy and compare the test group to a control group in a manner that can be replicated? What sort of experiments do you envision?

This is well beyond science's limits. So, observation, behavioral models, and more observation is all there is.

Anonymous maniacprovost January 05, 2018 6:41 AM  

Brain scans. Observation of small stress tells. Measurement of hormone levels. All while subjected to different types of stress.

It would have all the same methodological flaws as most social science, but if a sane human being did it we could learn something.

Anonymous ZhukovG January 05, 2018 6:44 AM  

This is a plausible hypothesis. I particularly find myself agreeing that a Narcissist may be more dangerous than a Psychopath. The Psychopath 'may' act, whereas by this hypothesis, the Narcissist 'must' act.

Blogger pyrrhus January 05, 2018 6:52 AM  

I agree with the conclusion...As Bruce Charlton, an MD and Professor of psychology, has observed many times, a certain degree of psychopathy is necessary to get things done in life. I think he has written a book on this topic. Anyway, psychopathy only becomes dangerous at extreme levels, while narcissism is dangerous to others even at modest levels....

Blogger Al From Bay Shore January 05, 2018 7:08 AM  

I immediately thought of something written by Scott Adams (web address leads to commentary):

"If you’re in the mass hysteria, recognizing you have all the symptoms of hysteria won’t help you be aware you are in it. That’s not how hallucinations work. Instead, your hallucination will automatically rewrite itself to expel any new data that conflicts with its illusions."

http://blog.dilbert.com/2017/08/17/how-to-know-youre-in-a-mass-hysteria-bubble/

Blogger Resident Moron™ January 05, 2018 7:17 AM  

I’ve seen some pretty good clinical data on psychopaths. There’s one famous case of a profiler who was shocked to discover his own brain scan matched the profile of the serial killers he’d studied. When he discussed it with his family they all went “yeah, we know”.

He concluded that the physical markers (the nature) are like the tendency to overindulgence in liquor; they’re real but they only indicate potential, like intelligence. It takes the right experience (tge nurture) to realise that potential. Negatively or positively.

Anonymous Heteropaternal Superfecundation January 05, 2018 7:26 AM  

How to distinguish between psychopathy and sociopathy?

Anonymous I'm Not a Fascist. But My Sons Are. January 05, 2018 7:27 AM  

I’ve seen some pretty good clinical data on psychopaths. There’s one famous case of a profiler who was shocked to discover his own brain scan matched the profile of the serial killers he’d studied.

James Fallon? (Author of The Psychopath Inside: A Neuroscientist's Personal Journey into the Dark Side of the Brain. Interesting read).

Anyway, there is Robert D. Hare's Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R). The psycho-diagnostic tool most commonly used to assess psychopathy. It has it's critics.

Anonymous JBP - DNA January 05, 2018 7:32 AM  

"It is not merely conjecture. What sort of "proper research" do you have in mind? Made-up peer-reviewed social science survey nonsense?"

Wow. Was that the brain melting down?

Blogger Duke Norfolk January 05, 2018 7:36 AM  

VD wrote:What sort of "proper research" do you have in mind? Made-up peer-reviewed social science survey nonsense?

Indeed. As you've pointed out, most people don't understand what science really is; even many intelligent people. There's this knee jerk reflex to say, "we need more science here before we can know", even though science can't possibly suffice.

Blogger Duke Norfolk January 05, 2018 7:42 AM  

I find AC's commentary on the amygdala to be fascinating. Along with r/K theory it's helping to make sense of the world; to explain why people act so irrationally, especially the Left.

I really think he's onto something groundbreaking here.

Blogger Resident Moron™ January 05, 2018 7:50 AM  

@10 I think so. Not good with names.

@12 A lot of it is the urge to avoid responsibility. Governments and their bureaucrats have thousands of years of practice at it, and today all that conditioning tends to the "we have to have experts investigate" and "we have to make policy guided by science". There's nothing new under the sun; it's all so they can chant the words of Adam and Eve when confronted over their errors:

"It's not my fault!"

https://tenor.com/view/han-solo-its-not-my-fault-star-wars-gif-7362606

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2eAT2sgISA

Anonymous Luke January 05, 2018 7:52 AM  

I think if the pigs & Lecter scene had been done for real, that they probably wouldn't have GAF whether or not he was any kind of 'path, and would most likely have chowed down on him regardless, if they were hungry. They were trained to eat human-shaped meat accompanied by screams, yes? The screams would surely have soon followed, once Lecter felt tusks, even if he didn't oblige with any ahead of time.

Blogger dc.sunsets January 05, 2018 7:55 AM  

According to the hypothesis, the amygdala is the brain structure that directs higher brain centers to overcome obstacles.

Given what my wife reports about half the students in her 4th grade classroom, modern life is now producing kids who are listless and incapable of even rudimentary problem solving.

"He looked at me!" the kid wails...

"My pencil broke," she said, sitting with a blank look on her face.

However bad today's adults appear, the crop coming up is worse.

Blogger Resident Moron™ January 05, 2018 7:57 AM  

The point was about the psychopath's brain, not the pig's brains ...

Which part of "the scene was fictional" did you not understand?

Blogger SciVo January 05, 2018 8:04 AM  

Interestingly enough, he concludes that narcissists are more dangerous than psychopaths, because psychopaths are too clueless to be able to conceal themselves or their deeds very effectively.

ZhukovG wrote:This is a plausible hypothesis. I particularly find myself agreeing that a Narcissist may be more dangerous than a Psychopath. The Psychopath 'may' act, whereas by this hypothesis, the Narcissist 'must' act.

Both I think are true. I believe that I have observed benign narcissists in the wild -- they were only identifiable as such by their complete overnight transformations in response to life changes, having apparently no fixed identity -- but (until it gets physical) the gaslighting of the narcissist, because he truly believes his false memories from his brain's self-serving rewrites of reality, can be much more toxic than the mere callousness of the psychopath.

It's easy to identify and avoid the a-hole who thinks that your problem with his casual insults is that your skin is too thin. But the guy who would sincerely swear on a pack of Bibles that he didn't say those things yesterday can make you question your very sanity, requiring reality checks from friends. Seriously, even recordings aren't enough because they will just deny it's their voice, and with all apparent sincerity.

Blogger Ken Prescott January 05, 2018 8:08 AM  

I think the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is that the former can't feel genuine emotion, while the other can and merely giveth not a damn. The sociopath can navigate the social interactions much better, and is harder to detect.

Blogger szopen January 05, 2018 8:09 AM  

Heteropaternal Superfecundation wrote:How to distinguish between psychopathy and sociopathy?

https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/antisocial-personality-disorder-dsm--5-301.7-(f60.2)

The terms psychopathy or sociopathy are also used, in some contexts synonymously, in others, sociopath is differentiated from a psychopath, in that a sociopathy is rooted in environmental causes, while psychopathy is genetically based

Anonymous Blahblahblah January 05, 2018 8:11 AM  

Re psychopaths: https://youtu.be/_rpsLGbxGDU?t=1928

I have to go out so don't have time to find a citation for narcissism. Jordan Peterson makes throwaway comments from time to time about high extraversion and low agreeableness combining to make narcissists, I'll try to find one when I get back.

I'm not going for argument from authority, merely argument from good faith. The reason being I think agreeableness is the key trait that connects them both. You can have a narcissistic psychopath, the clinical diagnosis for either wouldn't be mutually exclusive. (Anyone diagnosed with both would have high extraversion, approximately 0 agreeableness and low conscientiousness.)

Blogger Johnny January 05, 2018 8:13 AM  

My on the face of it take is that this guy does not know what he is talking about. The thing is the need for display comes more from internal doubt than from conviction, and if I got it right narcissist truly believes he is superior. Thus they can fake humility if they want to.

To explain by way of example, a married couple in my neighborhood got into public displays of affection: holding hands, kissing, that sort of thing. It occurred to me the merrage was probably over and it was. In a couple of months they separated.

That is also why the orientals can pander to us gringos by pretending to not be racist if they understand the need to. Sincere internal belief along with a cohesive society makes it acceptable to display otherwise.

I don't know about right now, but the Japanese have a long history of excluding outsiders. They will not even integrate with Koreans, let alone us round eyes even though they do seem to think reasonably well of us. And black! No way.

Blogger Tinidril January 05, 2018 8:23 AM  

A key factor in my experience is that narcissists lack a sense of earned identity or true character. They are empty vessels putting on a facade. When they feel a person isn't buying their facade the mask drops, presumably the amygdala runs wild, and they are triggered into rage attacks that baffle their victim. I personally believe that this is a key part of why SJWs are so obsessed with their made up crop of identities. It fills the void inside, the missing sense of self, that they never developed normally through being allowed to fail or succeed as helicopter kids. The narcissist I dealt with in the workplace was apolitical. Now imagine an environment like a women's studies department where this type of broken person, an empty vessel, is given an identity to be used as a useful idiot by radical professors. Voila, an SJW.

Blogger dienw January 05, 2018 8:26 AM  

James Jones wrote:I'd like to see some proper research on this subject because this is just conjecture.

But your ideas on the underdeveloped amygdala explain very well the behaviour of molly-coddled middle class millennials who become SJWs. The lack of struggle, conflict or suffering in their childhood leaves them with a smaller amygdala and they are unable to encounter views that upset their worldview.


What if the working of the amygdala is recorded in the face. Years ago I read an article regarding that as a man ages his face develops according to his character and mental and emotional development.

Anonymous JAG January 05, 2018 8:28 AM  

Ken Prescott wrote:I think the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is that the former can't feel genuine emotion, while the other can and merely giveth not a damn. The sociopath can navigate the social interactions much better, and is harder to detect.

I can sniff out a sociopath in less than 10 questions, but it has to be in person.

Blogger SciVo January 05, 2018 8:30 AM  

Heteropaternal Superfecundation wrote:How to distinguish between psychopathy and sociopathy?

As a layperson, my rule of thumb is that the sociopath can understand other people's feelings and exploit them, they just don't care. The psychopath has a flat emotional range, and in the dangerous ones, that translates into wildly outrageous behaviors in response to "upset" or "horny".

Psychopathy can actually be a pro-social trait, such that there is such a thing as the "situational psychopathy" of the heart surgeon who treats your body like a machine to accomplish a goal valued by society. Several other professions also show that, such as cops, soldiers, and lawyers.

Whereas high-functioning sociopaths such as politicians and financiers "hack" our social systems for their own gain, such as keeping high-speed trading legal (even though it serves no useful social purpose due to them withdrawing from the market right when fluidity is needed most), and getting ordinary folks without influence prosecuted for doing the same things but better (exploiting their trading algorithms). There is no such thing as a "situational sociopath" that serves the greater good; they are always out for themselves.

So between the two, setting aside the rare psycho killer and just talking about the common types, I prefer psychopaths to sociopaths. At least you know where you stand with them, and you can minimize their effects on your life by mere avoidance, since they generally lack the social skills to acquire power.

Anonymous Avalanche January 05, 2018 8:56 AM  

@15 "pigs & Lecter scene had been done for real, that they probably wouldn't have GAF whether or not he was any kind of 'path, and would most likely have chowed down on him regardless,"

On the other hand, there is an interesting (old, pre-PC) book (whose name and author I have long since forgotten), about the big cats in Africa. Almost exclusively, unless they are too old or hurt/sick to catch actual prey, the big cats will NOT attack humans -- either we taste bad, or more likely, they've come to know 'us' as apex (Or 'other') predators, not worth the risk of injury to eat.

However, they WILL, without hesitation, attack "mentally challenged" humans (to use the euphemism) and eat them. (And, according to the book, it's NOT that the ... retards ... go where they shouldn't or don't run away or whatever; it's (apparently) that the cats know THIS is a not-dangerous incidence of the apex predator.

Blogger rumpole5 January 05, 2018 8:56 AM  

I finished my career prosecuting post conviction death penalty cases. There was almost always a brain damage claim. I disagree with the developmental model of brain function. Although the brain is somewhat plastic, and feedback loops might play a role, we are pretty much born with a type of brain function that will not change that much absent disease or injury. If, as did one of my capital defendants early on, you enjoy burying cats up to their necks and then running over them with the mower, that personality is going impact you and those around you for the rest of your life. This is one reason that human biodiversity is so controversial. People do not want to accept that so much of our role in life is fixed at birth by family, race, and the like.
If we did a psycopathy checklist, MMPI, and IQ to every participant in the educational process, we could identify most psycopaths and limit the damage that they can do. In fact, many psycopaths function well in society and can even excell in roles where empathy is a problem. For instance, a bank manager who regularly has to turn down unfortunates for loans, or foreclose on widows and orphans will not experience the emotional discomfort that a normal person will. The key is whether a psycopath can decide that it is in his best interest to follow society's rules because it works out better for him.

Blogger SciVo January 05, 2018 9:05 AM  

I despise reality TV shows but I once saw an episode about a supergenius in a Supermax. He despised it there, not just because he could only enjoy fresh air on his face with chains on, but because all the other inmates' conversations revolved around something going into or out of an orifice. Well, he broke out by somehow getting someone to insert paperwork for his release into the bureaucratic system. When they figured it out, they found him at his mom's place, where he'd apparently been the whole time, and they couldn't even charge him with escape since they let him out.

I forget what he did to get in there, but it wouldn't have been a common crime. So that would be an example of someone who was likely both a psychopath and a high-functioning sociopath.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer January 05, 2018 9:08 AM  

It's a pretty good hypothesis and appears to match up with some individuals I have dealt with in the past. The behaviors were all psychopathic, like blatantly lying about things, or overreacting to various situations. The part I could never figure out was that they appeared to be highly emotional in a genuine way. Especially as it relates to fear (they were irrationally afraid of all dogs and storms). This hypothesis helps explain that behavior.

Blogger dc.sunsets January 05, 2018 9:14 AM  

However, they WILL, without hesitation, attack "mentally challenged" humans (to use the euphemism) and eat them. (And, according to the book, it's NOT that the ... retards ... go where they shouldn't or don't run away or whatever; it's (apparently) that the cats know THIS is a not-dangerous incidence of the apex predator.

Sounds like what's most likely to occur to certain segments of the BLT crowd if Nature's Hardships, long held back behind a dam of Glories Past, break free and wash over the First World.

Recognizing BBGKB's exception, the Pink Pistols don't impress.

And I think we all notice that Left-cult Zealots, who by definition exhibit a profound disassociation with objective reality, fare quite poorly when they choose to live amidst the animals, (cough, cough) I mean the urban underclass. What's the TTV (time to victimization) for whites living in predominantly black urban zones?

Blogger dc.sunsets January 05, 2018 9:24 AM  

@27 Rumpole, you might agree with one of my axioms of life:
"Tigers don't change their stripes. As people age, they just get better at being who they really are."

For every human attribute there is a spectrum. Each of us is born to a specific segment of each of those spectra. Free will is exhibited by the choice of where on each of our innate segments we act, but this highlights the fact that we can't fundamentally alter ourselves in any way.

Good people don't turn bad. Bad people don't turn good. We only change at the margins. I submit that the greatest battle we face is trying to master our own impulses. Self-control and self-discipline are of incalculable importance, especially in an Age when impulsivity is encouraged at every moment despite screaming evidence that impulsivity renders people miserable.

Blogger SciVo January 05, 2018 9:24 AM  

basementhomebrewer wrote:It's a pretty good hypothesis and appears to match up with some individuals I have dealt with in the past. The behaviors were all psychopathic, like blatantly lying about things, or overreacting to various situations. The part I could never figure out was that they appeared to be highly emotional in a genuine way. Especially as it relates to fear (they were irrationally afraid of all dogs and storms). This hypothesis helps explain that behavior.

Blatant lying is a sociopathic trait and overreacting is a borderline trait, but neither are psychopathic traits to the best of my layperson understanding.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan January 05, 2018 9:24 AM  

This will partly explain why conservatism is mainly useless, they absolutely refuse to ask questions (interrogate) of the left.

It is safe to write an essay, and then attack the gentle people on the right if they disagree, but it is absolutely brutal to trigger the mentally ill on the left.

The left is about psychopaths driving the wild narcissists over the gentle grazers

Blogger SciVo January 05, 2018 9:26 AM  

Sorry, blatant lying is more of a narcissistic trait really.

Blogger SciVo January 05, 2018 9:27 AM  

Because the sociopaths aren't as blatant.

Blogger Johnny January 05, 2018 9:29 AM  

I am going to run through what an true narcissist is, by way of a story told to me by a professional. (which I am not)

The question goes like this. You and the members of your family attend a funeral for one of your family members. At the funeral you talk with a women who is a friend of your family. Things go well and you would like to meet her again, but you failed to get contact information. If nobody in the family can tell you who she was, how do you get to meet this women again?

The answer that will not occur to a non narcissist but may occur to narcissist is that all that is needed is to kill another member of your family. Thus when they hold the next funeral the women is likely to show up and you can talk to her again.

The point being that a true clinical narcissist is so self possessed that other people are nothing to them. I think what we are talking about here is display oriented gammas.

Anonymous Uncle John's Band January 05, 2018 9:31 AM  

The psychopath remains a rational actor, while narcissism is a misperception of oneself and the world that fundamentally irrational. Psychopathy is much less socially destructive in the aggregate.

Anonymous I'm Not a Fascist. But My Sons Are. January 05, 2018 9:33 AM  

How to distinguish between psychopathy and sociopathy?

It's going to depend on whom you ask. It'll sometimes even depend on the context in which you ask them.

It might be worth noting that, the overwhelming majority of the time, clinicians/diagnosticians don't actually diagnose one as a "psychopath" or a "sociopath" but as one having Anti-Social Personality Disorder.

For most in the relevant professions, 'psychopath' and 'sociopath' are a distinction without a difference and terms generally reserved as explanatory devices employed in colloquial-ish discourse with laypersons, proleptically.

The aforementioned Hare, however, and for one, asserts that enough difference exists between the 'psychopath' and one with Anti-Social Personality Disorder to merit so-called "Psychopathic Personality Disorder" being added to the DSM.

Whether or not Hare Et.Al assert a distinction between the 'psychopath' and the 'sociopath' I don't immediately remember, but I want to say they don't.

Blogger szopen January 05, 2018 9:35 AM  

dc.sunsets wrote:@27
Good people don't turn bad. Bad people don't turn good. We only change at the margins.

In general, I agree with almost everything you have written, but I think there are exceptions, as everywhere.

For example, with the psychopathy (from the same website I have linked above with discussion of the DSM-V definition of the Antisocial Personality Disorder and differences between sociopathy and psychopathy):

There are also cases of individuals with APD converting to religion and finding strong conviction within themselves to reform and successfully integrate with society ("Confessions of a Christian Psychopath", 2011). The role of religion and spirituality as a possible treatment for APD is not well studied, and future research is warranted.

I've never met such people in person, but I constantly bump into stories about people who have really changed with the help of the religion. For religious people, the answer why religion helps might be obvious. For me, it's very interesting, open question.

Anonymous I'm Not a Fascist. But My Sons Are. January 05, 2018 9:36 AM  

Most Psychology should be approached as one would approach a work of fiction nonetheless based on a true story.

Anonymous BBGKB January 05, 2018 9:45 AM  

narcissists are more dangerous than psychopaths, because psychopaths are too clueless to be able to conceal themselves or their deeds very effectively

As much as I hate catching people in lies I wouldn't want to lose the ability.

Recognizing BBGKB's exception, the Pink Pistols don't impress.

Even the bouncers at most gay bars are pussies.

What's the TTV (time to victimization) for whites living in predominantly black urban zones?

5 sec after the electricity goes down in DieVerse City

Blogger SciVo January 05, 2018 9:55 AM  

OT: speaking of psychopaths, it's about time we stopped giving our "security assistance" (lunch money) to Pakistan. Between Pakistan and Iran, the question for history will be whether Obama was a muzzie terrorist sympathizer or a weak appeaser, and the answer will probably be "embrace the healing power of and."

Billions upon billions of dollars, denied to poor Americans and given to their enemies instead.

Blogger William Meisheid January 05, 2018 10:04 AM  

szopen wrote:dc.sunsets wrote:@27

Good people don't turn bad. Bad people don't turn good. We only change at the margins.


...I've never met such people in person, but I constantly bump into stories about people who have really changed with the help of the religion. For religious people, the answer why religion helps might be obvious. For me, it's very interesting, open question.


At it's heart, Christianity (not other religions) asserts that mankind is essentially broken and not good and becoming a believer involves substantive change of the individual, such that there is a "new man" (born again context) that ends up at war with the old man/old fallen nature (see Romans 7 for Paul's basic take on this). The fundamentals of discipleship are the working out of the growth of this new man at the expense of the old man/old nature, reflected in the statement "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20

That would be a Cliff Notes version of the Christian idea of how someone could be delivered from their old nature and its inherent problems.

Blogger Johnny January 05, 2018 10:06 AM  

I am deeply skeptical that there is in practice firm definitions for these psychoanalytic words. Somebody someplace has a problem and if you can come up with a word for it it sounds like you understand it. And these multi-syllabic, non-phonetically spelled words are just so impressive. "Paranoid schizophrenic" sounds so much better then "He's nuts."

Freud was a political right winger but did not full express it because he was a Jew living in a German society. The way you can tell is that he gave society a pass but saw the nut case as a problem that needed fixing. Around the 1960's the whole profession started to flip. Now it is society that needs to adjust to the nut case.

Anonymous Cindy January 05, 2018 10:15 AM  

"The part I could never figure out was that they appeared to be highly emotional in a genuine way. Especially as it relates to fear (they were irrationally afraid of all dogs and storms). This hypothesis helps explain that behavior."

A cousin of mine is a classic sociopath. She's absolutely without empathy, but she has plenty of self- interested emotions, namely anger and malicious glee. She was terrified of nothing, but i saw her act scared a few times, and she manufactured a phobia for its usefulness in manipulating her father. Fooled everybody but me, and I'd have been fooled, too, if not for her bizarre trust in me. She never bothered trying to snow me. Not sure what that says about me. nothing good, probably. She was a dangerous person to know, but honestly she wasn't as smart as she thought she was due to her complete blindness to other people's motivations. She needed me for the reality check I could give her, think. Weird relationship, to be sure.

She became as duplicitous toward me as everybody else when i got saved. I suspect demonic involvement, given that i never had to say a word or even got a chance to. She just suddenly became very, very hostile at the sight of me, after years of something like friendship. Years later, she's no different that I can tell, except that I now see the same deceitful face she used to give everybody. Her act is so good I could almost believe she's changed, but there's so much rotten fruit lying around that I know she's still a bad tree.

Blogger SciVo January 05, 2018 10:25 AM  

szopen wrote:I've never met such people in person, but I constantly bump into stories about people who have really changed with the help of the religion. For religious people, the answer why religion helps might be obvious. For me, it's very interesting, open question.

No goat's sacrifice could possibly cleans a man's sins, which are dire. So God out of Love sent His Son to die for us, and to prove His power over death -- that His blood can cleans -- by rising again. And when you accept that sacrifice, He sends the Holy Spirit to live in your heart, and guide you in His ways.

You do not have to be a Bible believer to observe that such belief can make genuine, lasting change.

Blogger Sillon Bono January 05, 2018 10:27 AM  

VD wrote:I'd like to see some proper research on this subject because this is just conjecture.

It is not merely conjecture. What sort of "proper research" do you have in mind? Made-up peer-reviewed social science survey nonsense? How do you propose to quantify narcissism and psychopathy and compare the test group to a control group in a manner that can be replicated? What sort of experiments do you envision?

This is well beyond science's limits. So, observation, behavioral models, and more observation is all there is.


I'm with you on this VD, I have a direct relative which matches the "narcissistic" behavior described in the article to the last comma.

In fact it has been shocking to me to read it and come to terms with it.

Truly insightful.

Blogger SciVo January 05, 2018 10:31 AM  

@45 Cindy: That actually sounds more like a narcissist to me. Admittedly, at some point you just have to throw up your hands and say Cluster B.

Anonymous BBGKB January 05, 2018 10:32 AM  

related:

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/video-liberal-student-makes-the-case-for-killing-two-year-old-kids-as-pro-choice-extremism-exposed_01042018

"student openly makes his case for infanticide for children up to two years old during an unhinged rant that clearly shows that at least some on the pro-choice left are hardcore extremists who most Americans would never support if they actually knew what they stood for."

Anonymous Cindy January 05, 2018 10:34 AM  

Oh, no, dude. Narcissists are manipulative, but they believe their own bs. She was COLD. Believe me. I won't even go into the bad stuff.

Blogger Ken Prescott January 05, 2018 10:36 AM  

JAG wrote:Ken Prescott wrote:I think the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is that the former can't feel genuine emotion, while the other can and merely giveth not a damn. The sociopath can navigate the social interactions much better, and is harder to detect.

I can sniff out a sociopath in less than 10 questions, but it has to be in person.


My friend, you are truly blessed.

I've lost money, a job, and no small amount of my sanity from the very few sociopaths I've come across.

Anonymous Rocklea January 05, 2018 10:38 AM  

"student openly makes his case for infanticide for children up to two years old during an unhinged rant that clearly shows that at least some on the pro-choice left are hardcore extremists who most Americans would never support if they actually knew what they stood for."

I drove past protesting abortion right's activist the other day. I thought about driving over them. Was I wrong not to? Oh the fuzzy edges of psychopathology.

Anonymous Cindy January 05, 2018 10:40 AM  

Of course, if you like calling her a narcissist, i don't object at all, since i don't think it's ever going to make a lick of difference what we call it. Evil is evil.

Blogger Rashadjin January 05, 2018 10:42 AM  

Anonymous Conservative's construction of a narcissist smells wrong to me. It's too reductive and combines a concrete thinker's desire to blame human behavior on structural defects. It's always more complicated than that.

The amygdala is a lot about regulating and processing emotional response in yourself and others. Helicopter kids learn to outsource that function to parents/authority.

Often, SJW's are addicted to self-righteous rage and a need to see their adversaries as Nazis (Satan) in order to cover for self-loathing. See SJWADD's take on them.

The narcissist is more a permanent state of self-righteous euphoria combined with the post-hoc rationalizations/delusions to stay that way. It's a lot an emotional addiction, but without the SJW's common case of self-loathing buried beneath. The socially destructive behavior is less about a lack of amygdala and more about believing yourself and feeling yourself a god among ants.

The OP's 'amygdala-pain' can easily be read as addiction withdrawal symptoms. The mistake is to simplify down the incitement for that addiction akin to suggesting that all alcoholics start as children in order to avoid discomfort.

Narcissism can easily develop later in life, quickly or slowly based on the circumstances and driving internal beliefs.

Oh, and people can change. The easiest way to achieve that feat is to give them no other choice. Of course, you might not get the desired change for your efforts.

Blogger szopen January 05, 2018 10:49 AM  

BBGKB wrote:
"student openly makes his case for infanticide for children up to two years old [...]"


I've discussed with one of this kind during one moment of my life when I went through a - let's say - a crisis of faith. I started to doubt the fundaments of my right-wing beliefs: I couldn't find rational and logical arguments for few fundamental tenets of right-wing ideology.

Within few weeks this guy convinced me that whatever doubts I might have about rightwing philosophy, the alternative is so disgusting and awful that there is no point to ponder about some minor inconsistencies.

The guy used all kind of ruthless logic and science to prove his point. He was an atheist, like me. I think also smarter than me because he could easily dispatch many of my arguments and sometimes only weeks after the dicussion I've came upon the proper counterarguments. But he definetely convinced me I would prefer to be burned as heretic in a christian society than to live in one governed by guys like him.

Blogger ThirdMonkey January 05, 2018 10:52 AM  

What's the TTV (time to victimization) for whites living in predominantly black urban zones?

5 sec after the electricity goes down in DieVerse City

This is due to the POS devices at the convenience stores going down and the Food Stamp cards not working.

Anonymous ForgottenName January 05, 2018 10:52 AM  

This guy here tells a good story/relationship drama about his encounter marrying a female psychopath:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlqoC3SKIxA

He claims that they can be nearly undetectable beasts after a lifetime of practice in deception.

Blogger Phelps January 05, 2018 10:58 AM  

James Jones wrote:I'd like to see some proper research on this subject because this is just conjecture.

There's tons.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=amygdala+and+psychopathy

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=amygdala+and+narcissism

Psychopaths have underdeveloped amygdala that don't fire properly to threats, and narcissists have overactive amygdalae that aren't regulated properly by the hippocampus and the ACC. Psychopaths don't recognize threats as threats, and narcissists can't distinguish between tiny threats and huge threats (similar to PTSD.)

We also know this from the related disorders. If you get a lesion on your amygdala that causes it to stop functioning, you turn into a psychopath. If you get a lesion on your ACC, you turn into a narcissist.

Blogger Johnny January 05, 2018 11:01 AM  

Rocklea wrote:"student openly makes his case for infanticide for children up to two years old

Many long years ago I read a book titled something like Sex Through History. The women covered reproduction as well and what leapt out for me was how common infanticide is. In the human race until you can walk and talk and have a name you are not safe.

Blogger szopen January 05, 2018 11:07 AM  

Johnny wrote:Rocklea wrote:"student openly makes his case for infanticide for children up to two years old

Many long years ago I read a book titled something like Sex Through History. The women covered reproduction as well and what leapt out for me was how common infanticide is. In the human race until you can walk and talk and have a name you are not safe.


https://www.edge.org/conversation/napoleon_chagnon-steven_pinker-richard_wrangham-daniel_c_dennett-david_haig-napoleon

ctrl+F "CHAGNON: Well, the Yanomamö practice infanticide occasionally, and it's for a variety of reasons." and this: " I'll bet if you looked at the abortion rate in Venezuela in middle class women, their rate of abortion would be much, much higher than the Yanomamö infanticide."

Blogger Phelps January 05, 2018 11:08 AM  

Rashadjin wrote:The amygdala is a lot about regulating and processing emotional response in yourself and others. Helicopter kids learn to outsource that function to parents/authority.


Nope.

The amygdala is 100% about threat recognition. The regulation of that threat (and other emotional things that you probably associate with the amygdala) are actually happening in the hippocampus. Fear regulation, in particular, is happening in the ACC.

So you're on the right track -- the helicopter kids have atrophied amygdala, but it results in them never realizing that there was a threat in the first place. More likely, they have normal amygdalas that have been trained to not notice the hungry lion on the angry black man with a machete as threats, but are hyper-sensitive to Fear on Mother's Face as a threat.

Emotional regulation doesn't even get implicated.

Blogger tuberman January 05, 2018 11:09 AM  

This has gotten me thinking about degrees of Narcissism. I'm observing even more people, who are not total SJWs, or anything close, but who just take a 180 degrees when forms of Truth smacks them upside the head. When people are afraid, they often respond to their fears by hiding in past world views that just do not hold up, and this makes them more defensive. Many will actually signal they want to ignore everything that does not fit their views. Not talking about Narrative people here, but even people who reject much of that, or Normies, and even people a bit more woke than Normies.

Normies are, of course, the biggest problem here, as in, how can they even take small nibbles of the Red-Pill? Is Narcissism part of their problem too? Also, is there any hope beyond total breakdown to get them started? Is it stupid to have hope for these people beyond Historical pressures?

When faced with total Identity Politics, they want too take a literal trip to Fantasy Land.

Anonymous Rocklea January 05, 2018 11:11 AM  

"Many long years ago I read a book titled something like Sex Through History. The women covered reproduction as well and what leapt out for me was how common infanticide is. In the human race until you can walk and talk and have a name you are not safe."

I haven't read it, but I am pretty sure you are refering to Psychohistory.

Blogger tuberman January 05, 2018 11:13 AM  

tuberman wrote:This has gotten me thinking about degrees of Narcissism. I'm observing even more people, who are not total SJWs, or anything close, but who just take a 180 degrees when forms of Truth smacks them upside the head. When people are afraid, they often respond to their fears by hiding in past world views that just do not hold up, and this makes them more defensive. Many will actually signal they want to ignore everything that does not fit their views. Not talking about Narrative people here, but even people who reject much of that, or Normies, and even people a bit more woke than Normies.

Normies are, of course, the biggest problem here, as in, how can they even take small nibbles of the Red-Pill? Is Narcissism part of their problem too? Also, is there any hope beyond total breakdown to get them started? Is it stupid to have hope for these people beyond Historical pressures?

When faced with total Identity Politics, they want too take a literal trip to Fantasy Land.


VD, perhaps a forth book in your series on becoming Anti-fragile is in order?

Blogger Thucydides January 05, 2018 11:14 AM  

I'm a little bit curious about the conclusion at the end of the OP, since the usual way this is described is psychopaths/sociopaths have no empathy for others but are good at modelling social situations and blending in by faking emotional responses. The narcissist isn't going to fake social cues to blend in, since it is all about them anyway, which would seem to be the reverse of the OP's conclusion.

Regardless, either one is certainly toxic to be around, since their entire existence is based on manipulating others to achieve whatever ends they desire.

Blogger dc.sunsets January 05, 2018 11:16 AM  

I believe that humans are imbued with both rational and impulsive thought patterns, and our social behavior occurs on a spectrum where different actions are found under different conditions.

Just as genetic predisposition for tallness only expresses under conditions of adequate nutrition, much of the Mouse Utopia behaviors we see today, centered on the Lunatic Left, exist only in times of astronomical Plenitude and social optimism.

Self-centeredness at peak spectrum surely is narcissism. A lack of empathy can express toward strangers and at higher spectrum it can express toward closest family. Even willingness to torture animals could in theory be limited to that, but I doubt it.

Thus narcissism to me appears to be a personality trait, while psychopathology is something near-organic that is missing from the brain of such people. The inability to perceive others' emotions looks to me like disabilities that come from brain damage in the limbic system.

Under today's conditions of Plenitude many people are alive who under harsh conditions would likely be murdered, politically executed (or simply exiled to perish in the wilderness.) Narcissism that seems pervasive among women would be suppressed out of self-preservation.

Plenitude is bringing out the worst in people even as it allows those who would otherwise fail Nature's test of fitness to propagate their behavioral mutations.

As an aside, consumer culture enriches a tiny few people to the point where they use their riches to spread utter insanity across the globe. From 90-IQ Saudi princes to brilliant tech entrepreneurs, whatever damage inhabits their souls is given free rein to infect the masses of men.

When Lenin said that the capitalist would sell him the rope with which he'd hang the capitalist, he only scratched the surface of the paradox of individual self-interest's contribution to collective self-destruction. Christianity was never a perfect matrix for resolving this paradox, but it was far better than what has risen in its place.

Blogger Phelps January 05, 2018 11:19 AM  

tuberman wrote:This has gotten me thinking about degrees of Narcissism. I'm observing even more people, who are not total SJWs, or anything close, but who just take a 180 degrees when forms of Truth smacks them upside the head.

This is something to keep in mind. The actual personality disorder (NPD) that makes you a narcissist is, like most personality disorders, really just a collection of defense mechanisms taken to the extreme.

All normal people use defense mechanisms, and a lot of them are shared with NPD. All of us can act in a delusional, arrogant way about something at some point. That's normal (and part of maturity is recognizing when you are doing that.) For someone with NPD, they are so reliant on a particular set of defense mechanisms that their whole being is wrapped around it.

I've speculated for a long time that societies can develop behavioral disorders on a collective level. Black culture, for example, seems extremely NPD, which makes sense, because black people have collectively had all the conditions that promote NPD in children:

Early childhood risk factors include:

insensitive parenting
over-praising and excessive pampering - when parents focus intensely on a particular talent or the physical appearance of their child as a result of their own self-esteem issues
unpredictable or negligent care
excessive criticism
abuse
trauma

extremely high expectations

Let's face it, that was the collective lot of black people under Jim Crow. They reacted by developing narcissism as a defense mechanism. And now we are stuck with a pathological subculture in America. So what about the SJWs?

Early childhood risk factors include:

insensitive parenting
over-praising and excessive pampering - when parents focus intensely on a particular talent or the physical appearance of their child as a result of their own self-esteem issues
unpredictable or negligent care

excessive criticism
abuse
trauma
extremely high expectations

They seem to be just as in-danger, just from the other direction.

Blogger William Meisheid January 05, 2018 11:23 AM  

dc.sunsets wrote:Christianity was never a perfect matrix for resolving this paradox, but it was far better than what has risen in its place.

One could argue that Christianity was never going to "resolve the paradox" in the world in which we now live, but is the matrix for separating those who will move into the future "new world" versus those who won't.

Blogger tuberman January 05, 2018 11:27 AM  

67. P,

Early childhood risk factors include:

insensitive parenting
over-praising and excessive pampering - when parents focus intensely on a particular talent or the physical appearance of their child as a result of their own self-esteem issues
unpredictable or negligent care
excessive criticism
abuse
trauma
extremely high expectations

All this can be observed through parents today, who live vicariously through their children. These people may not even be "over the top" in such issues, but still do much damage, and this is considered very normal by most.

Blogger dc.sunsets January 05, 2018 11:33 AM  

@67 or the CliffNotes version: Crazy people raise crazy kids.

Apple. Tree. Distance from.

Blogger Johnny January 05, 2018 11:35 AM  

dc.sunsets wrote:much of the Mouse Utopia behaviors we see today, centered on the Lunatic Left, exist only in times of astronomical Plenitude and social optimism.



Plenitude plus our ancestors made us too safe and we have lost any sense of danger.

Blogger Rashadjin January 05, 2018 11:35 AM  

@Phelps

Infogalactic says you're very wrong about the amygdala in that it does a whole lot more than fear. And formation of emotion memories is part of regulation emotions.

The brain is a complex, interconnected system with many parts working together on most tasks. The output (behavior/emotion/etc) approaches something like a multisystem consensus. Or the output weight of an electronic neural network.

The moment you say any given brain structure only does one thing is the moment you should doubt.

Blogger VD January 05, 2018 11:38 AM  

Let's face it, that was the collective lot of black people under Jim Crow. They reacted by developing narcissism as a defense mechanism. And now we are stuck with a pathological subculture in America.

That makes no sense at all and ignores the entire history of the whole continent of Africa.

You do understand that black people have historically lived in other places than the United States, right?

Anonymous I'm Not a Fascist. But My Sons Are. January 05, 2018 11:40 AM  

For someone with NPD, they are so reliant on a particular set of defense mechanisms that their whole being is wrapped around it.

Malignantly so.

The presentation minutiae is interesting, too. There are a couple (malignant) narcissists that post here, for example. They operate, both rhetorically and dialectically, in an internally consistent vacuum. When called on it, they retreat to illusory heights -- as if to look-out-and-down -- and apply a criterion of judgement to which they do not subject themselves. Call them on that and it merely confirms, for them, their superiority. Always parochial; always pretentious; in a perpetual state of ever-so-loosely constrained seethe.

Not to be confused with Gamma. Although I imagine the two aren't mutually exclusive.

Blogger Longtime Lurker January 05, 2018 11:42 AM  

“They develop the ability to force their brain to believe something untrue . . .”

One theory is that narcissists experienced deep wounds to the psyche as children and then overcompensated by forming a false self—an invincible identity that is everything the wounded child was not: omniscient, omnicompetent, omnivictorious, and so on. Think of the false self as the psychological equivalent of scar tissue.

Deep down, however, the narcissist knows he is putting on an act. The narcissist’s performance will rarely, if ever, close the gap with the impossible idealistic self-image that he desperately needs others to see and reflect back.

This dynamic is also true to a lesser extent for normal people. But the difference between normal people and narcissists is that normal people do not routinely demand/expect people around them to always behave in ways that reinforce the narcissistic false self.

When the people around the narcissist fail to be reliable sources of narcissistic supply, when they fail to reflect back the idealized self-image, or worse, when they contradict it, all hell can and will break loose. For this is the moment when the narcissist will explode: “You are the WORST PERSON in the world.” Bank on it.

Through such outbursts, the narcissist hijacks the central nervous systems of those around him, and this why narcissists have few if any genuine friends. Those who cannot break contact with the narcissist (for whatever reason) ultimately expend tremendous amounts of energy coping with the narcissistic behavior. Some call this dynamic emotional vampirism or malignant narcissism.

Who is more dangerous, the narcissist or the psychopath? It has been said by another (I forget who) that all psychopaths are narcissists, but not all narcissists are psychopaths. From this perspective, the question may posit a false choice.

We now know that the psychopath’s brain is structurally different from normal brains. Maybe narcissistic brains are too, but my suspicion is that psychopathic brains were born that way, and that narcissistic brains developed abnormalities over time due to stress.

To cut to the chase, the most dangerous human being is the high functioning psychopath who believes that his absence of conscience is an “advantage” over normal people that should be exploited. The high functioning psychopath learns, at an early age, that his advantage must be concealed at all costs to prevent ostracism or worse.

Over time, high functioning psychopaths can develop an ethical framework to at least prevent self-destruction. High functioning psychopaths are inveterate observers of human nature and are likely to develop an extremely high level of social awareness.

The high functioning psychopath will reflexively avoid the social equivalents of sunlight, garlic, holy water, and the like.

The less intelligent and self-aware members of Homo Psychopathicus, however, are incapable of preventing their narcissistic selves from joining with their psychopathic selves to hurt others. Prisons are filled with such people, and judging from recent discussion on VP, SF conventions are too.

Blogger tuberman January 05, 2018 11:44 AM  

dc.sunsets wrote:@67 or the CliffNotes version: Crazy people raise crazy kids.

Apple. Tree. Distance from.


I take a slightly more optimistic view, as totally crazy people are usually also totally perv narcissists, and only bother with kids through rape and worse. I assume totally crazy = about 6% of the population, or Narrative freaks of various kinds. The Globalist Experiment is failing fast, and all Normies are semi-Crazy but not demonic.

Blogger Rashadjin January 05, 2018 11:46 AM  

And by fear, I meant threat recognition. The amygdala does more than threat recognition and response.

This is what I get for taping out complex issues on tiny screens.

Blogger Johnny January 05, 2018 11:49 AM  

Crazy people raise crazy kids.

The problem is establishing correlation. Are the kids crazy because they were raised crazy, or are the crazy because they share their parents genetics?

Anonymous Cindy January 05, 2018 11:53 AM  

Thinking about the difference between a narcissist and a sociopath. I think it boils down to this: for the sociopath, others exist for them only if and when they are needed for some material purpose. They are truly anti - social in that they see no social purpose at all for other humans. Narcissists, in the other hand, cease to exist *for themselves* if others are not constantly validating them. So they're a mirror image Of the socio, hyper - social, a nullity without their supply of human validation. The psychopath is self- validating. The rest of us fall somewhere between the two, i guess.

Btw, I'm about finished with The Last Closet. I've never had so much trouble choking a book down.

Blogger tuberman January 05, 2018 11:54 AM  

Perspective:
What if the Narrative gets totally shattered? This Fantasy Land has been projected onto the normie population purposefully...like Santa Claus. Disney is the ultimate normie false reality.

Anonymous Humpty Dumpty Parumpty January 05, 2018 12:03 PM  

Anon. Conservative does not have any formal training or complete knowledge of physiology or psychology, so his hypothesis (as mentioned above) is theoretical speculation, as are his /r & /k theories. He is engaging in a name-game, the truth is (i.e. the Occam's razor) a psychopath is just a more severe narcissist.

His distinction also ignores IQ; the "psychopath" he describes is just a low IQ narcissist. IQ differences explain the difference in these two groups simpler than he does. He is just calling higher-IQ psychopaths "narcissists" since they sound smarter, and since "psychopath" culturally reminds us of violent killers in movies and not the real-life psychopaths we find in daily life, such as "Snakes in Suits", a book by an actual psychologist that explains this in more detail.

Anonymous Rocklea January 05, 2018 12:11 PM  

This a good read about amygdala function:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK10891/

From the article:
"Experiments first performed in the late 1950s by John Downer at University College London vividly demonstrated the importance of the amygdala in aggressive behavior. Downer removed one amygdala in rhesus monkeys, at the same time transecting the optic chiasm and the commissures that link the two hemispheres (see Chapter 27). In so doing, he produced an animal with a single amygdala that had access only to visual inputs from the eye on the same side of the head. Downer found that the animals' behavior depended on which eye was used to view the world. When the eye on the side of the intact amygdala was covered, the monkeys behaved in some respects like the monkeys described by Klüver and Bucy; for example, they were relatively placid in the presence of humans. If, however, they were allowed to see only with the eye on the side of the intact amygdala, they reverted to their normal fearful and often aggressive behavior. Thus, in the absence of the amygdala, a monkey does not interpret the significance of the visual stimulus presented by an approaching human in the same way as a normal animal. Importantly, only visual stimuli presented to the eye on the side of the ablation produced this abnormal state; thus if the animal was touched on either side, a full aggressive reaction occurred, implying that somatic sensory information about both sides of the body had access to the remaining amygdala. Taken together, these results show that the amygdala mediates processes that invest sensory experience with emotional significance."

And there's plenty more there too, with diagrams an' all. The notion of a high functioning psychopath seems a little weird to me, given that they can't process fear or react aggressively to stimuli, though I guess there may be other neural pathways in some people that can compensate.

Blogger tuberman January 05, 2018 12:20 PM  

In a sense I do not care about totally full off the charts sociopaths or psychos. It is enough to know them on contact, and to avoid them or disrupt their damage and manipulations.

I believe part of the false Narrative is that the Norms have changed far more than they actually have, and quite a few can turn the corner, and a renewal of the West may have at least a medium term surge. Full Culture Wars by the Right may have a crushingly positive effect.

There are many now working hard, and praying hard in these directions. Many Heroes who are doers, and do not give a flying crap about credit, are working in the background for this renewal.

Alt-Retards though, have their own agenda and want to see billions die, playing into the hands of the Satanists.

Anonymous Kat January 05, 2018 12:46 PM  

Cindy - I think that's a key distinction. For instance, if a narcissist considers herself a self-sacrificial mom (C.S. Lewis' woman who "lives for her family") then anything that challenges that self-conception as a good and giving mom must be ruthlessly avoided/destroyed. As her child, peaceful family life depends on aligning your self-conception with hers. If this becomes untenable then you will be rapidly expunged.

Ditto if your father has a self-conception as a strong-minded family patriarch. But because they're narcissists there will always come that moment when what they do/say is completely at odds with the best interests of those around them. And that's assuming that they've managed to keep the more obvious forms of sin at bay. Either way, they do not allow challenges to their identity. It's really messed up.

Anonymous Rocklea January 05, 2018 1:17 PM  

tuberman wrote:
"Normies are, of course, the biggest problem here, as in, how can they even take small nibbles of the Red-Pill? Is Narcissism part of their problem too? Also, is there any hope beyond total breakdown to get them started? Is it stupid to have hope for these people beyond Historical pressures?

When faced with total Identity Politics, they want too take a literal trip to Fantasy Land."

People react to what is considered normal, well, normally. Cogdis happens when past normal diverges from current normal excessively. So, yes, historical pressures are the driver. The western amygdala has become accustomed to a low threat environment, but it is still capable of recognising both internal and external threats. Action at a group level takes time, leadership and a big enough threat to trigger a cascade preference.

We currently have gangs of Somali's in Melbourne (pronounced Melbin locally) on a crime spree. Currently, some, right wing media are saying they should be sent back if they don't conform to norms and/or be forced to assimilate. Left wing media is genuflecting on the usual outreach nonsense.

This behaviour from the Somali is not new. Reporting on it is. Changes are coming. FUD is coming from the plenitude dc.sunsets writes about. Will people awaken to the insanity of globalism and utopianism without resource restriction? I think yes, partially. But the degree to which they do, ultimately, depends on living standards.

Nobody wants to see billions die. But knowing it's a distinct possibility is a good motivator for action.

Blogger tublecane January 05, 2018 1:29 PM  

"psychopaths are too clueless to be able to conceal themselves or their deeds very effectively"

That's why I've always thought their numbers were inflated. Because you'd think they'd stick out like a sore thumb. People are always talking about psychos simulating emotions and pretending to be normal humans to fit in. But how do you do that, really? Doesn't it require having certain emotions to understand them, and therefore be able to reproduce them? And if you're able to understand the emotions psychopaths lack, what's the difference between that and having them? What doctor could tell you you don't actually feel the things you're pretending to feel?

Of course, I assume there are supposed to be different levels of psychopathy. Maybe the ones who get by are only halfsies. That's the problem we th psychology. There's no blood test for psychopathy. We're left with clusters of symptoms.

Blogger tublecane January 05, 2018 1:47 PM  

@36-That hypothetical doesn't make much sense. How could no one know who she is if she's a "friend of your family?" How do you know she'd show up to the next funeral if no one even knows who she is?

It's a big risk to murder someone on the off chance another person will show up to the funeral. Especially considering cops are wont to look to family members for suspects.

Anonymous User January 05, 2018 1:47 PM  

Frankly, old timey demonic possession/influence has a stronger basis in truth than an amateur mix of post-freudian bullshit combined with blogosphere "neuroscience" while maintaining greater explanatory power.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine January 05, 2018 1:55 PM  

"a certain degree of psychopathy is necessary to get things done in life."

An astute observation. There's a balance to be had, as with all things that are not the source of morality itself.

I've known enough people that considered causing negative emotions in other people to be "bad" because they were oversensitive to social conditions. Best remedy? Teach them to get angry. (This is where Satan steps into the game, twisting people to be angry for malefic reasons, like all the SJWs for example.)

The absence of sufficient ability to suppress one's empathy is probably the cause of ideologies like Libertarianism. They have to understand that while all of reality isn't a zero sum game from the human perspective, there ARE many commons properties, and for most of them SOMEONE is inevitably going to move to monopolize them, so if you're not aggressively in the game, you're de-facto out of it, fatally.

The remedy for Libertarianism is understanding that the Tragedy of the Commons is not avoidable with most commons. You've got to play the game or die.

Anonymous User January 05, 2018 2:00 PM  

Plenty of so-called disorders are clearly just the usual gaussian looking distribution of heritable traits.

Blogger tublecane January 05, 2018 2:08 PM  

@54-It's tempting to ascribe the differences between myself and the people I oppose, especially in the political sense, to structural defects. And that's not merely because I want objective reasons to declare myself right. Or not entirely. Also not because I wish to pathologize those with whom I disagree, like the people who wrote that Authoritarian Personality B.S. Rather, it's because some people just ain't normal, and there has to be a biological explanation for some of them.

For instance, I've often wondered at people who profess to not be bothered by obviously disgusting things. Or people who appear to openly embrace strangers as easily or more easily than familiars. Someone's who loves people on the other side of the world and hates his neighbors is just not right. Someone who thinks excrement a perfectly normal part of love-making ain't right, either.

I must have an explanation for the fact that both types--embracers of the gross and lovers of the unfamiliar--tend to be leftists. Those are just a couple of examples.

The "triggering" issue certainly is another. We're find of attributing it to childishness. Leftists often freak out like children having their toys taken away when reality disagrees with them. If that's their amygdala or whatever, hmmm.

Blogger tublecane January 05, 2018 2:20 PM  

@91-Most libertarians I know would deal with common interests either in a spontaneous voluntary manner, or through the court system, rather than by dictate or through a regulatory system. Which of course would expand the power of the courts in the realm of equity and common law. But they don't get into too many details.

And it's not as if they expect there to be no monopolies (either actual monopolies or "monopolist" in misleading neoclassical terminology), but that if they had a choice they'd want them to be private instead of public.

I don't it's an overabundance of empathy making them want to stay out of "the game." It is perhaps too much trust in others and an incapacity for sounding the depths of human depravity and cupidity.

In another sense, libertarianism is motivated by a lack of empathy. The True Believers must be willing to let people die painfully in ditches for their bad decisions. They won't allow society to patronize or matronize unless it's voluntary.

Blogger SQT January 05, 2018 2:23 PM  

Cindy - I think that's a key distinction. For instance, if a narcissist considers herself a self-sacrificial mom (C.S. Lewis' woman who "lives for her family") then anything that challenges that self-conception as a good and giving mom must be ruthlessly avoided/destroyed. As her child, peaceful family life depends on aligning your self-conception with hers. If this becomes untenable then you will be rapidly expunged.

This describes my mom to a T. She would even tell me to my face "I'm a great mom" as if daring me to contradict her. I had a psychologist tell me that my mom had every sign of NPD.

I read James Fallon's book and was astonished at how closely my dad's personality mirrored that of Fallon. My dad is the classic used car salesman and he never gave a damn about taking advantage of other people. I think he's like Fallon, who describes himself as a "pro-social" psychopath in that he doesn't want to hurt people but he has no ability to recognize when he does.

Anonymous Ivan Throne January 05, 2018 2:53 PM  

Weighing on whether to weigh in...

Regards,

Ivan

Anonymous BBGKB January 05, 2018 2:58 PM  

Someone's who loves people on the other side of the world and hates his neighbors is just not right

Nothing ((())) hate more than a coal miners daughter that's is smarter than a jewish princess. An HIV+ illiterate 3rdworld moslem imported into your neighborhood by ((())) using your tax dollars eats ~$60,000 in HIV meds alone along with needed taxpayer paid classes on how to use a toilet & might attack your daughter for ((()))). ((()))) are honest enough to know that affirmative action tokens at Harvard will not be competition for their kids like a smart coal miners kid would.

(((Feminists))) import 3rd world rape culture so that 3rdworlders will attack the pretty girls for them.

Anonymous Ivan Throne January 05, 2018 3:40 PM  

A few thoughts here on narcissism, psychopathy, and their interaction...

First, this is my experience, my research, and of course my opinion. If you disagree with those things as they coalesce into my comments here, that's fine. You can buy THE NINE LAWS and read it, change your mind, curse me as obtreperous offal and burn it, or whatever you like.

Second, I do think it is important to grasp the difference between the essential nature (amoral) of the traits and the application of them by individuals (moral).

I'll save the moral aspect for last.

From my perspective as a dark triad, there are three essential paths into development of these traits:

Inherent
Born with it, in other words. The depth of the trait, and the cause of its presence, can range from congenital defect to selective breeding (or both). Perhaps it's broken telomeres; perhaps it's amygdalic structural abnormality; perhaps it's deliberate eugenics from the parents and family line, as is in the case of competent and effective aristocracy.

It is fashionable to make jokes about Hapsburg jaws when aristocratic eugenics are discussed, but this is both seizing on an outlier and engaging in reduction to the absurd. From the American perspective, the concept of rulership through birth is inherently offensive. Nothing wrong with that, for America. That ingrained sociopolitical distaste, however, does not obviate that it has been a very successful process for many cultures and civilizations.

Are all breeders of German Shepherds successful in producing champions?

Are all breeders of hothouse roses successful in producing blue ribbon winners?

Likewise, breeding human beings is equally hit-or miss, perhaps more so when one factors in the uncertainties of environment that human beings are subjected to...

But I digress. There are two other factors that impact the presence of narcissism and psychopathy.

Inflicted
In short, trauma. Physical, emotional and mental injury produce lasting and in some cases permanent changes in the human being, including amgydala function. Experience, age and maturity do play a role in this. A four year old who suffers severe emotional trauma is far more likely to sustain permanent damage than a middle-aged combat veteran who has learned to successfully process the same situation effectively.

We come to the last piece now.

Instilled
Training, in other words. This is a function of culture, of practice, of study, and of persistent effort and conscious direction by the human being towards states of deliberate evolution. The samurai of medieval Japan are perhaps the most striking example of this. Cultural practices dictated that horrific suicide was honorable; willingness to die for one's lord, or to kill on order; the devotion of a lifetime to the specific transcendance of attachment to being alive.

There is varying speed with these things, as well.

When you're born with the traits, it's instant. Doesn't matter if it's defect or breeding - you've got it from the start, and it is what it is.

When you are traumatized and consequently develop those traits, it's a development process, but one facilitated by actual biological changes derived from the depth and disruption of the experience. It does take time, but is deeper and quicker than training.

Training takes a very, very long time... and is ultimately more shallow than the others. This is why those who cease training eventually lose their "edge" in many different ways.

Inherent, inflicted, instilled.

What if you have all three?

That's what THE NINE LAWS attempts to expand upon, and provide an unlocking of my individual perspective upon.

This is one of the reasons why I am quietly contemptuous of "dark triad PUA coaches".

(continued....)

Anonymous Ivan Throne January 05, 2018 3:40 PM  

(continuing from @98)

You cannot quickly train people into true manifestation of the traits.

You cannot alter the genetics of a human being (at this time in human progress) to create these traits where they are not already inbred.

And where trauma is concerned... it is partly a case of Ronnie Coleman's comment that "everyone wanna be a bodybuilder, but nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weights" - and also laziness by most where endurance and perseverance are concerned.

Trauma is not fun.

Trauma is not delightful.

Screaming in agonized horror and dealing with miserable pain for years, altering your life and plans and hopes and dreams, as a young child... that's not "One Wierd Trick" to overcome and work through.

Ask any combat veteran who saw men blown apart or lost brothers or limbs if he Suddenly Got Super Powers from it, and if he thinks the detachment and coldness from it was worth it.

In my discussions with preeminent researchers in the field of study regarding the dark triad traits, they have both concurred with each other, and I share their opinion. The traits are, perhaps, an evolution of human capacity and power. But don't forget a truth about power: it is amoral.

A sword cares not who it cuts.

Targets are the moral decision of the man.

They are also defined by the regulated capacity of the man.

"Well-regulated" is a term that should be more commonly understood. Second Amendment activists understand it properly - it means "correctly functioning" as in a well-regulated clock, or a well-regulated heartbeat. Has nothing to do with laws or strictures.

Dysregulated traits become dysfunctional.

Dysfunctional traits become disordered.

Disordered traits become destructive.

This is normal.

"So why are so many narcissists and psychopaths simply assholes, Ivan?"

Do most people train?

Do most people devote themselves to understanding how they work, and why they work that way?

Do most people have a sacred purpose that drives their moral and value system?

How good are they at it?

I would not say that disregulated, dysfunctional, disordered, and destructive narcissists and psychopaths give the traits a bad name. I'd simply say that you have powerful capacities in the hands of idiots, and most human beings are "dumb, stupid panicky beasts" as Men In Black so wonderfully described them.

Think back to champions, and how rare they are.

Even the best German Shepherd requires intense training, and a hothouse rose must be fertilized and pruned.

I do not say that a dark triad who has developed awareness, conscious, and deliberate control and management of the traits in accordance with a moral value system is a champion. But he is far less likely to incompetently and carelessly turn that sword on his loved ones, his society, his culture and his colleagues.

He might, yes, if it suits the sacred purpose he has bound himself to.

It's a dark world.

I do think that being aghast and condemning of the traits is rather silly, and better befits one who also gibbers and gesticulates at a loaded sawn-off shotgun lying on a kitchen table.

It's just a tool. And similarly, it's just a capacitative trait.

People are indeed assholes most of the time. Not a bad thing, just how it is.

We're fallen animals, and there are hurts and shocks that go along with that when we interact.

Perhaps this will provide some insight. I think that AC's comments on the psychopath not having the amgydalic function, and the narcissist lying to himself about the function, is an interesting take. And one I will think about.

If you are interested in AC's take on THE NINE LAWS< you can read it here:

Anonymous Conservative Review's Ivan Throne's THE NINE LAWS

In closing, perhaps I should don asbestos?

Or maybe, just maybe, the flames are more fun than safety.

Regards,

Ivan

Blogger Off The Wall January 05, 2018 4:19 PM  

Ivan, thanks for the perspective. No flames here. AC may be onto something but you are as well.

Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira January 05, 2018 4:23 PM  

Has anybody seen a person with a shrunken or dysfunctional amygdala make any progress in mitigating the condition? Dealing with these people as family members can be tricky to put it lightly.

Blogger raneman January 05, 2018 5:34 PM  

Glad Ivan is here. The video of him trolling the mob up close and personal in Denver without fear or even mild discomfort is my go to example of what real psychopathy looks like. To be so completely immune to fear or stress doesn't necessarily make one evil, but it is scary for someone without the trait to look at. Most psychos aren't that successful due to lack of impulse control, due to the lack of fear

Blogger raneman January 05, 2018 5:46 PM  

As far as narcissism goes, I doubt that it's necessarily from childhood. Had a friend who only started exhibiting the trait after he left college. What precipitated the change? I don't know, but it's there

Blogger Geoarrge January 05, 2018 6:08 PM  

Although I have nothing to offer but more amateur neuropsychology speculation, I would describe the amygdala(e) as the situational awareness center. So, yes, a lot more is going on than just threat assessment, it's involved in anticipating, and learning to anticipate, positive and negative consequences to your present actions and the events occurring around you. But this can still be generally mapped onto Cooper's situational awareness scale.

Rabbit-types among the human population do seem to exhibit a high aversion to Condition Yellow and the uncertain environments where Yellow is required to thrive. Whether they're addicted to Condition White or so sensitive that any stimulus shoots them straight into Orange/Red, it doesn't strike me as an either/or problem. Many if not most addictions are at least partly rooted in a desire to retreat from something else. Condition White is both a comfortable retreat for them, and the only realistic option as they can't regulate their reaction to stimuli well enough to stay in Yellow (some possibly due to a physiological defect, others due to lack of training).

Condition White requires being able to convince yourself that you're safe. This means, in the face of an uncertain environment, either taking more control of that environment, getting better at self-deception, or some combination of the two. This could explain why leftists love banning things, demanding social safety nets, and living in alternate realities.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine January 05, 2018 6:33 PM  

"The True Believers must be willing to let people die painfully in ditches"

All true believers have to be willing to do that. The only question is exactly whose choice put those people in those ditches.

Blogger tuberman January 05, 2018 6:47 PM  

87. Rocklea

I wanted to get back to you before dropping away from these sort of comments for awhile. I will keep commenting on stuff like Alt*Hero and other Culture Wars material, as I have a deep interest.

The reason I did not see my comments here on normies as off-topic is that normies projects the same fears as the actual SJW people, but to a less extent. So speculation on whether they will turn around easier after the NWO/Globalists can no longer create an overall Fantasy Land cover for their real world crimes, will be something to watch. There are beginning to be "leaks" through the MSM coming out now, that likely would not have come out before.

So much to follow that I intend to go in that direction, plus accumulating some Memes to help release. Tons of stuff happening in background, and best it stays there for a while. (Except through Memes and other direct culture wars).

Blogger John rockwell January 05, 2018 7:10 PM  

The thing with psychopaths is that they either learn objective morality or they simply become skinsuit wearers.

If they don't get their act together in childhood and they still act the psychopath and commit a crime then their ought to be put to death since as of now there is no cure.

Anonymous Redjack January 05, 2018 9:37 PM  

My mother has narcissistic personality disorder. I add pent much of my childhood in fear of that "meltdown ". When reality breaks the illusion, she can get extremely violent. My half sister has similar tendencies.

It was not fun in my house as a kid.

Anonymous Naga January 05, 2018 9:51 PM  

Ivan Throne, what is the internal experience of sacred purpose? How do you conjure sacred purpose in your mind and use it to animate your body?

Anonymous Ivan Throne January 05, 2018 11:30 PM  

@109...

The internal experience of sacred purpose is, for me, a confluence of dread, ferocity and peace.

Dread of the source, and of failing before it. You do not wish to disappoint the divine.

Ferocity of total commitment, with the scabbard thrown away. The wind of Heaven is what you ride.

Peace of giving over the outcome to Heaven, for you are but a faceless servant.

Regards,

Ivan

Anonymous Naga January 06, 2018 12:26 AM  

Thanks.

Blogger Akulkis January 06, 2018 11:25 AM  

A lot of you people are talking about a specific subset of Narcissists as if it applies to Narcissism in the general case (Borderline Personality Disorder).

ALL BPD's exhibit NPD, but nowhere close to all Narcissists are BPD.

Painting all Narcissists with the truly ugly brush of BPD just ain't right, in multiple ways.

Blogger Akulkis January 06, 2018 11:43 AM  


As example of what I wrote in my previous comment

@24

"A key factor in my experience is that narcissists lack a sense of earned identity or true character. They are empty vessels putting on a facade. When they feel a person isn't buying their facade the mask drops, presumably the amygdala runs wild, and they are triggered into rage attacks that baffle their victim. I personally believe that this is a key part of why SJWs are so obsessed with their made up crop of identities. It fills the void inside, the missing sense of self, that they never developed normally through being allowed to fail or succeed as helicopter kids. The narcissist I dealt with in the workplace was apolitical. Now imagine an environment like a women's studies department where this type of broken person, an empty vessel, is given an identity to be used as a useful idiot by radical professors. Voila, an SJW."

THAT is a description of BPD, not NPD.


NPD is NOT characterized by the sort of "splitting" behavior which you have just described above.

Also, ANYTIME you are talking about unstable personal identity, it is almost always BPD.

While NPD's do tend to have a "mask" or "false face" personality, due to personal feelings of inadequacy, they generally do know who and what they are. They also try to make up for the feelings of inadequacy by over-achieving (or at least attempting to do so).

BPD's, on the other hand, have little to no identity. This is why most of your "best" actors are such absolutely crazy people -- because they ARE. The almost complete lack of identity allows them to quickly and easily adopt whatever identity is needed for the current role being played. Combine that with psychosis. ["I'm not a farmer's wife, but I played one in a movie" as if wearing "farmer's wife" clothes in front of a movie camera, speaking lines written by a (((script writer))), has any relevence at all the machinations of (((bankers))) using currency manipulation to run people off of their own land.]

(*) ESPECIALLY sexual identity. Show me someone with a sexual identity disorder, and I'll show you a BPD.

Blogger Akulkis January 06, 2018 11:48 AM  

@36.

"Sorry, blatant lying is more of a narcissistic trait really."

Wrong. That's a psychotic trait (disassociation from reality).

Blogger Koanic January 06, 2018 10:50 PM  

It's a reasonable theory, and like most psychological theories, science currently can only test the corners thereof.

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