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Sunday, February 11, 2018

Mailvox: the atheist's verdict

DL writes concerning his perspective on the battle between Churchianity and the Christian Alt-Right:
After reading your recent posts responding to Churchian attacks on the 16 points and your post addressing an accusation that the Alt-Right is anti-Christian, I felt obligated to explain what the Alt-Right has done for me in a little over a year.

Here is what the philosophy of the Alt-Right as it is laid out in those 16 points has done for that wretched little creature:

1. It has made me pro-Christian.

A broken and humiliated atheist has lost all purpose and sometimes the will to live. When I found myself in that situation the Alt-Right presented me with what so many churches cannot: practical reasons to support orthodox Christianity. It reminded me of everything that Western Civilization has accomplished and that contributing to it is something I can be proud of. It has shown me sufficient evidence to convince me that the two are linked. I never intentionally acted to undermine Christianity, but I did so by foolishly endorsing ideas that undermine Western Civilization.

2. It replaced a philosophy of hedonism.

It’s easy to be a hedonist when you are successful. What I didn’t realize is that my success was not a result of my natural abilities alone but the combination of those abilities with the virtues that were instilled in me while I was raised in a Christian household. Once I abandoned those virtues my natural abilities could not slow down my descent into substance abuse, bankruptcy, and nihilism. The philosophy of the Alt-Right has provided me with a framework to find my way back onto the path of a good man.

3. It taught me that I know nothing.

I have opened my mind to the possibility that there could be a God. I always claimed that was the case but it was a lie. I listen when people pray for me now. I no longer recoil when I hear or read scripture. The neologisms you created regarding science were unpalatable at first but just thinking about the meaning behind them made me realize I had stopped searching for the truth on my own and simply accepted whatever the consensus was.

The alt-Right isn’t anti-Christian. In just over a year the Alt-Right has done what 20 years in church could not: exposed me as a fool, forced me to accept it, and taught me how to change.
He is correct. The Alt-Right is not anti-Christian. How can it be, when it is the foremost philosophical defense of Western civilization? It is said that the value of something can be determined by its fruits. What, pray tell, are the fruits of Churchianity?

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58 Comments:

Blogger Not a lefty February 11, 2018 7:31 PM  

"What, pray tell, are the fruits of Churchianity?"

Do turds grow on trees?

Blogger My Dead Gramps February 11, 2018 7:36 PM  

Make that two atheists.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd February 11, 2018 7:38 PM  

Not a lefty wrote:"What, pray tell, are the fruits of Churchianity?"

Do turds grow on trees?


It looks to me that turds grow on the churchian tree.

Blogger kh123 February 11, 2018 7:48 PM  

For my part, I'll say that the discussion here over the past few years on this (and just this site in general for longer than that) has made my view and approach to atheists or agnostics much sharper, and (wait for it, here it comes) more tolerant.

When the idea comes up that religion (Christianity in particular) is a ridiculous delusion, instead of being annoyed I'm able to bring up the useful retort I'd first seen here: That even if it's a delusion, it's a socially useful one that's created the minds, the society, and the opportunities for which said-atheist and his ancestors were able to benefit from. It's effortless now thanks to having dived into this site for awhile, and never fails to get the hearer to do a weighty nod in agreement.

On the other hand, I grown to have less patience for folks who perform a particular form of the Pavlovian Two-Minute Hate on the parent or host culture they find themselves the beneficiaries of. ("The West merely benefited from being a hub of cultural trade," "There's nothing to the mongrel goy side of my ancestry, so let me introduce you to the 1% Ashkenazi helot side," etc.)

Blogger Dire Badger February 11, 2018 7:48 PM  

DL=

You are exactly where I was, three years ago. I lifted myself out by almost identical principles (and no, I am not going to argue minor quibbles with a couple of the 16 points) Before they were itemized like this.

I really look forwards to seeing what YOU become in the next 3 years.

Alt Right=Conservative mugged by reality AGAIN.

Blogger Dire Badger February 11, 2018 7:51 PM  

I figure conservative=Liberal that's been mugged
Alt Right=Conservative that figures out that seeing reality doesn't matter if you do not act on that knowledge, by getting mugged by reality itself.

Blogger Smokey Dust February 11, 2018 7:52 PM  

I never considered myself an atheist. There is a higher power. Never found a church that wasn’t Churchian and I can’t wrap my mind around loving my enemies.

This blog specifically hit me with both the correct readings of scripture and the pragmatism of indoor plumbing / civilization being linked to Christendom.

I look forward to Christians casting off Churchians and re establishing their rightful place in the West.

Blogger pyrrhus February 11, 2018 7:54 PM  

"What, pray tell, are the fruits of Churchianity?"

Corruption and death, societally and spiritually.

Blogger Dire Badger February 11, 2018 7:56 PM  

The problem with a static theocracy where you traditionally poop into your left hand is that you never develop toilet paper.

Blogger Looking Glass February 11, 2018 7:57 PM  

@6 Dire Badger

Conservative sees a problem. Thinks, "I'm Cassandra! Woe to all because you don't listen to me!"

Alt-Right sees a problem. Inspects the problem. Devises a solution, then goes about implementing the solution. All the while making multi-layered jokes about solving the problem with stakes, spears and trebuchets. At least, you hope they're jokes.

Blogger Looking Glass February 11, 2018 8:05 PM  

@7 Smokey Dust

Churchians, and their theological forefathers, have gone great violence to the Word.

"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful." Luke 6:35-36 ESV

"The Beatitudes" were a sermon given to completely & utterly upend the listeners. Turning them into hard & fast "Rules!" means the church has failed to understand the message. That's what bothers so many about the Church right now, they've retreated to Virtue Signaling, not following the Lord.

Or, as an easier turn of a phrase I've worked out over the years: "God is Love and Love is coming to kill you." The 4 Horsemen work for God, as a reminder. Puts a slightly different spin on what the church is supposed to be about, doesn't it?

Blogger kh123 February 11, 2018 8:10 PM  

...Will admit though, did enjoy seeing Vox turn the Churchian's objection to "politics downstream from identity and culture" on point #9 on its head. And all the while this guy was claiming deontological whatsits mixed with an Aristotelian approach. Right Churchian, do tell us more about how your deliberative / last-stand ethics inform your view of justice in every culture (whether they want it or not), while your Christianity is not your identity or culture...

Blogger ThirdMonkey February 11, 2018 8:20 PM  

This right here is what happens when we finally start standing up for ourselves and "punch back." For so long, the church has swallowed the lie that to love our enemies we lie down and take it. Paul certainly didn't. He defended his ministry and the Gospel of Jesus Christ at the point of facing death on a daily basis. We must ALWAYS be on offense when defending and proclaiming the truth. That's how Christendom advances, not by the sword, but by challenging and slaying the Churchian Hipster Pharisees who swallow whole the philosophies of this world and its god, Satan himself, and regurgitate it with sprinkles of scripture, calling what is evil good. This is why he gets so butthurt when we tell him the Alt-Right doesn't care what you think of it. Truth is our master. Either the truth saves, or it condemns. The Churchians would rather peddle the word of God for the sake of being liked by those who hate the Truth than speak the Truth to the perishing. Their fruit is their own damnation.

Blogger gbob February 11, 2018 8:27 PM  

As far as fruits are concerned. With regards to the churchian orthodoxy of "no judgement, all is equally good". When was the church more powerful or better attended? When rock and roll was the devil, or when the "contemporary" service is the norm. I'm not suggesting that rock is the devil or the downfall of the church, but that false "inclusivity" is self defeating.

Blogger James Dixon February 11, 2018 8:32 PM  

> ...and I can’t wrap my mind around loving my enemies.

First, take the entire passage: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (King James Version)

Do you have any real problems with any of the other commands in that passage? Yes, they're all difficult for us. But we're called to be better than we are. Do you really think the first one is supposed to be that much harder than the ones that follow it?

Then consider that what is translated as love is agapate. You can look up the details of the exact meaning of that word for yourself.

Blogger kh123 February 11, 2018 8:34 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Nate February 11, 2018 8:42 PM  

"What, pray tell, are the fruits of Churchianity?"

umm... super repetitive praise songs?

Blogger Beau February 11, 2018 8:48 PM  

@ DL

Thank you for expressing your thoughts on this matter. May they bear much fruit and become a beacon for others.

Blogger Gloriam Deo February 11, 2018 8:59 PM  

where can I find a non-Churchian church in north dallas?

Blogger ThirdMonkey February 11, 2018 9:00 PM  

"What, pray tell, are the fruits of Churchianity?"

Gammas and the reformed sluts they married.

Blogger Jack February 11, 2018 9:01 PM  

Something no one in the mainstream wants to admit is that the Alt Right is, or at least can be, a hugely positive influence on young white men and women (and even some others) who have been raised in a culture of degeneracy that is the legacy of the 1960s cultural revolution. People from divorced families, people raised without any religious or moral guidance, people mired in a pop culture that promotes only things that are psychologically and spiritually unhealthy.

Vox had an idea some months ago for an anthology of stories from Gen Xers about the remains of the old world that they grew up with. I think another good one would be stories of people who have managed to get out of this culture of degeneracy in one way or another. These days, there are lots of possibilities. People who find Christ, like the example above. People who stop using drugs. People who use game to improve their relationships after being raised in a misandric culture. People who recognize that they were indoctrinated with ethnic self-hatred, and cut it out. Maybe call it Up From Degeneracy.

The Alt Right should be a symbol of physical, psychological, and spiritual health. It should be the healthy and intelligent alternative to the lies that its opponents promote.

Blogger OneWingedShark February 11, 2018 9:17 PM  

Nate wrote:"What, pray tell, are the fruits of Churchianity?"

umm... super repetitive praise songs?


The "Jesus is my boyfriend" 'praise' songs.
You know the ones, where you could replace "Jesus" and have a love song.

Blogger Nobody of Consequence February 11, 2018 9:37 PM  

Everyone needs to read Crossed Fingers which I believe I may have first read about on this blog. All the major churches are co-opted and do not represent God, merely the ideas of some men.

Blogger SteelPalm February 11, 2018 9:47 PM  

I have always felt positively towards Christianity, which, based on personal observation, has had an overall positive effect on Western society. In the last year or two, I have shunned and boycotted institutions/products that were blatantly anti-Christian. I am not a Christian myself, but these attacks are fundamentally anti-Western in nature.

I also believe that in the chaos of modern times, more and more folks will turn to religion. For some, that is the evil of Social Justice. For others, it is Christianity.

Blogger bob kek mando February 11, 2018 9:55 PM  

OT, we have an unsuccessful Hultgreen-Curie attempt this weekend:
https://jalopnik.com/reinging-nhra-champion-brittany-force-hospitalized-afte-1822915650

OpenID rockcreekmillandheritagefarm February 11, 2018 10:33 PM  

OT

Any Qanon's on site? Contact me, use site info. God bless and Thanks.
Mike

Blogger Crush Limbraw February 11, 2018 10:36 PM  

Reality < Truth < Christ < God

Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira February 11, 2018 10:39 PM  

AltChristian

OpenID nosleeptillfootball2011 February 11, 2018 10:46 PM  

That is my biggest problem with red pill. I buy into wholeheartedly, but some of its biggest proponents are so nihilistic. Maybe it's me being married for 15+ years and being financially successful, but red pill guys go on and on and on about banging sluts & making money by any means regardless of how it's done. I get it, but that leads to a pretty empty feeling no matter how many times those guys say otherwise.

Blogger Chiva February 11, 2018 11:01 PM  

"exposed me as a fool, forced me to accept it, and taught me how to change."

I was a fool also, now I choose to be a fool for Christ.
1 Corinthians, Chapter 4

Blogger Troushers February 11, 2018 11:10 PM  

The "Red Pill" movement is interesting, insofar as it is a set of strategies (self improvement physically, emotionally, and prioritisation of career goals) to maximize personal returns in a dating scene dominated by -to put it bluntly-brainless ammoral sluts. To me, it is missing the idea that, after self improvement, your goal should include societal improvement to make it move away from the cultural malaise that creates the aforementioned sluts, and part of that is curtailing your base, bang everything and brag about it, dyscivic instincts.

There is a little too much MGTOW passivity in the Red Pill philosophy, with regards to the fighting against the cultural conditions which make the Red Pill necessary.

Blogger kh123 February 12, 2018 12:25 AM  

To conclude the AA confessional from earlier:

Another aspect that made for better toleration would be the studies cited here, pointing to atheism increasingly recognized as being within the autistic spectrum. Impairment like color blindness, for either high church or mellow varieties; either way can't be fully helped.

And a final bit: The real-time biological or social mechanics someone like Molyneux talks about, the epideictic or deliberative discussions, are the same ones red-pilled theists (or anyone) can observe, regardless of ultimate origins either being materialistic or supernatural. Seeing more of that made it easier to give ear to their conclusions even when they'd weave their forensic narrative into it.

Again, due credit to Vox and some of the regulars from the past several years for helping me with both of those.

Blogger Lazarus February 12, 2018 12:34 AM  

@27

red pill guys go on and on and on about banging sluts & making money by any means regardless of how it's done. I get it, but that leads to a pretty empty feeling no matter how many times those guys say otherwise.

These are red pill pozers. Red pill central has no nihilism allowed.

OpenID cyrus83 February 12, 2018 1:25 AM  

That whole response by the Churchian was mind numbing. Even from the RC perspective the only one of the 16 points that I have any quibble with is #7, and even then it's only with regard to the elements that belong to the universal of mankind, that is, what makes men men.

But points 5, 10, 15, and 16 pretty much contain what I find missing from point 7, taken as a whole I don't see why any Christian would object, and this is a sane and logical political philosophy that can appeal to non-Christians.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch February 12, 2018 1:27 AM  

I cannot help but see the parallels between the Alt-Right and the struggles of the Traditional Catholics.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch February 12, 2018 1:28 AM  

Meh. I guess I'll include this link for my post @33

It's called Alt-Right, Meet Rad Trad

https://www.menofthewest.net/alt-right-meet-rad-trad/

Blogger Koanic February 12, 2018 2:40 AM  

> loving my enemies

*your* enemies.

Scourge Jehovah's enemies.

Blogger newbietrader February 12, 2018 2:55 AM  

while the alt right many not be anti Christian, it sure isn't Christian. It is filled with WAY too many racist, bigoted anitsemitic aetheists etc etc who are all NON CHRISTIAN in their beliefs.

this alt right v. churchian discussion was a waste of bandwidth. most alt righters aren;t Christians and if they say they are, they like churchians are Christians in name only.

Blogger newbietrader February 12, 2018 3:09 AM  

the alt right keeps saying whitey this and whitey that, but my Bible says to go into ALL the world and preach the Gospel so that ALL can come to repentance and EVERYONE can receive grace. EVERYONE, not just whitey

Blogger newbietrader February 12, 2018 3:28 AM  

In Galatians 3:28, Paul writes that “[t]here is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Christians are to transcend race and identity politics but the alt right is all identity politics just like the left. while left screams black and brown at the top of its lungs, the alt right screeches whitey whitey whitey BOTH violate the spirit of Galatians 3:28

Blogger Lance E February 12, 2018 3:46 AM  

Obvious SJW concern troll is obvious. Never any argument other than guilt-by-association. Anyone who's spent more than 8 seconds reading this blog knows that the alt-right is not atheistic white identity politics.

Blogger Resident Moron™ February 12, 2018 3:48 AM  

Paul added a little insight to Christ’s command to love your enemies. He wrote that in doing so you will heap coals of fire upon their heads.

I’ve found that small but significant addition to be very helpful motivation for obeying this command.

The other thing is that love as it’s described in scripture is not an emotion so this command doesn’t mean you have to feel good towards your enemies, like them, or want anything to do with them. It just says you should act towards them in the most generous manner possible.

The most generous act you can perform towards someone attempting to destroy your family and/or your entire nation or race?

In my view, a quick death is the only possible answer.

Keep in mind that you might feel disposed to make sacrifices yourself but you have no right to sacrifice others to your piety. Your Christian duty is to defend others, especially those closest to you.

Blogger Keyser Soze February 12, 2018 3:49 AM  

Whenever I meet and get into a conversation with an atheist or agnostic, I simply tell them that « you may not believe in God, but he believes in you! ». Seems to end the conversation quickly.

Blogger Unknown February 12, 2018 3:58 AM  

ugh
I can't handle Christians
the new NFL winners are supposedly Christians ? They do not want to meet Trump... like wtf, is Christianity and SJW'ism the same thing

Churchians have no logic

Blogger Roger Hill February 12, 2018 5:14 AM  

The 16 points can also blast the last vestige of Churchian residue from your thinking. And this has aided me in discussions with a friend of mine who atheism seemed to grow more and more militant over time. He has become far less militant against the faith as a result of pointing out the obvious benefits of Christian orthodoxy to Western culture and politics.

There is something to be said for a view of reality that just so happens to consistently benefit the society in which it is firmly held. And the more and more the coincidence occurs, the less likely it seems to be mere coincidence.

Blogger James Dixon February 12, 2018 5:44 AM  

> most alt righters aren;t Christians and if they say they are, they like churchians are Christians in name only.

And exactly how many alt-right folks do you know again? What scientific studies have you done on their composition?

> but my Bible says to go into ALL the world and preach the Gospel so that ALL can come to repentance and EVERYONE can receive grace.

So why are you wasting your time here? The Middle East, China, and North Korea await you. Go and preach.

> ...for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Are you fully in Christ? Have you healed the sick, cast out demons, and raised the dead? Get back to us when you have.

In the meantime you're just a liar, and as such you serve someone other than Christ.

> It just says you should act towards them in the most generous manner possible.

Exactly. As I understand it, the root agape is usually translated as charity when it deals with relationships between men. It is only with respect to relationships with God that it is usually translated as love.

Blogger ReluctantMessiah February 12, 2018 8:32 AM  

"the virtues that were instilled in me while I was raised in a Christian household"

I wonder what's the difference in success between those raised in a Christian household vs atheist household

Blogger dienw February 12, 2018 8:49 AM  

@kh123
That even if it's a delusion, it's a socially useful one that's created the minds, the society, and the opportunities for which said-atheist and his ancestors were able to benefit from.

You have put into words that which a C.S. Lewis character declared in one of Lewis' Narnia books.

In just over a year the Alt-Right has done what 20 years in church could not: exposed me as a fool, forced me to accept it, and taught me how to change.

This speaks to a divine call:
ro 1:20  Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: 
Pro 1:21  She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, 
Pro 1:22  How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? 
Pro 1:23  Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. 

Blogger NeoNietzsche: February 12, 2018 9:20 AM  

@38 "while the alt right many not be anti Christian, it sure isn't Christian. It is filled with WAY too many racist, bigoted anitsemitic aetheists etc etc who are all NON CHRISTIAN in their beliefs. "

And yet. And yet.

I have spent a good portion of my long life vehemently anti-Christian. (And yes, I was moved way farther over by Marion Z. Bradley’s Mists of Avalon when it was published. NO such thing as coincidence.) Also not just because of the feminism I was infected with when I was young: I've recovered, but still bear the scars...) And, yes, 100%: my flaming racist, definitely bigoted, vehemently anti-semitic knowledge and positions have not even slightly gone away with my education here (and elsewhere, but mostly here).

I am culturally now 100% Christian (tip of the hat to the Dark Lord and his Ilk). Whether I will return to the Christian beliefs I held briefly as a pre-teen, whether I will be able to make that leap of faith, is uncertain, but I am open to it, where I was not before.

NONE of that in any way detracts from or overrides the CLEAR truth that racism IS 100% appropriate; bigotism (not a word) is the correct response to the (pretty far along) destruction of MY race and people; and anti-semitism is the CORRECT response to the people pushing the strongest for that destruction.

Does that conflict with Christianity? No, I don't believe it does. I am reluctantly onboard with Vox's omni-nationalism – I am SO filled with anger (and yes, hate!) towards the people destroying MY people that I WOULD happily and joyously participate in the "they must go back" movement ("round 'em up, moveem out, rawhide"!); I would uneasily participate in the rope and lamp post / repel boarders movement – because MY people come first! I can't quote Bible at you about taking care of your family BEFORE your neighbors, your TRIBE before foreigners – but others have quoted it here. And hey, if it's good enough for Jesus, why isn’t it good enough for you?! Are you a Christian – or a churchian?!

Blogger Crush Limbraw February 12, 2018 9:54 AM  

Faith comes by hearing- understanding comes from knowledge, which comes by sight.- Augustine 400 AD

Blogger Greg C. February 12, 2018 10:25 AM  

I haven't checked it out personally,so can't confirm, but the pastor of First Baptist Dallas is the controversial and very un-pollitically correct Robert Jeffress. He is an avid supporter and defender of President Trump, has met with him numerous times,huge defender of Trump's anti jihad stance, and appeared on Fox News alot during the Election. But it is in Downtown Dallas .

Blogger Dire Badger February 12, 2018 11:12 AM  

"you might feel disposed to make sacrifices yourself but you have no right to sacrifice others to your piety. "

Comment of the day, Thanks Resident Moron.

Blogger Dire Badger February 12, 2018 11:22 AM  

newbietrader wrote:the alt right keeps saying whitey this and whitey that, but my Bible says to go into ALL the world and preach the Gospel so that ALL can come to repentance and EVERYONE can receive grace. EVERYONE, not just whitey

Got sent over here from Salon, did we?

Blogger Dire Badger February 12, 2018 11:24 AM  

Looking Glass wrote:@6 Dire Badger

Conservative sees a problem. Thinks, "I'm Cassandra! Woe to all because you don't listen to me!"

Alt-Right sees a problem. Inspects the problem. Devises a solution, then goes about implementing the solution. All the while making multi-layered jokes about solving the problem with stakes, spears and trebuchets. At least, you hope they're jokes.


Violence is not always a good solution, but it is always A solution.

Blogger James Dixon February 12, 2018 1:07 PM  

> Violence is not always a good solution, but it is always A solution.

There are few problems in this world that cannot be solved by a swift roundhouse kick to the face. In fact, there are none. -- Chuck Norris

There is no problem which cannot be solved by a suitable application of
high explosives. -- William W. Hughes

Blogger Raben Wulf February 12, 2018 4:32 PM  

Stefan Molyneux's "The Truth About The Crusades" video, alongside reading the 16 points of the Alt-Right (which mirrored what I have been thinking for awhile) was what really did it for me. Its not so much that I became Christian from it but that as one (in the cultural sense) I found something more substantial than the "love and peace, all people are precious" BS the church was pumping out. I could never relate to the modern church. The Crusader mentality should not have been lost, the knights being far more worthy of respect than any mere preacher on a pedestal.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd February 12, 2018 5:11 PM  

Resident Moron™ wrote:The most generous act you can perform towards someone attempting to destroy your family and/or your entire nation or race?

In my view, a quick death is the only possible answer.


Loving your enemies can be as simple as praying for them as you kill them.

Blogger stevo February 12, 2018 7:43 PM  

I've been a "serious" Christian most of my life. But until I got redpilled I was basically an inneffectual white knighting cuck. Faith is not enough.

Love your enemies. It really pisses them off.

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