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Tuesday, February 20, 2018

Mailvox: Convergence and the Church

Megamerc relates the difference between the message of the Gospel and the message preached by the converged Churchians:
There was an Englishman called Arthur Oakman who joined a certain church here in the United States. He became a minister and one of the leaders of that church, and in 1966 he preached a sermon to a large group of his fellow ministers. Below is a quote from the transcript of it that reminded me of your take on several things, including race and the idea that Satan rules the world.

Here is the quote:

Some of the difficulty with our talk about race today. You don't just tell people they're brothers when they're not. God isn't the Father of all men, He's the Creator of all men. He loves all men, it is true. But He only becomes their Father when they are obedient to the gospel of Jesus Christ. And it's only in Christ that there is no Jew nor Gentile, there's no bond nor free. And in Christ, even in sex, there is no male nor female. And all the distinctions between all the races of the world are banished in Christ, but gentlemen, the world isn't in Christ. That's the difficulty. To impose by force an ideal situation on people is utterly impossible, hence we must preach the gospel of Jesus Christ in every place, that His Spirit might motivate men so that they may come to know Him.
 - Arthur Oakman

Oakman died in 1975, and barely nine years later the church, that in many ways he helped lead, began to ordain women to their priesthood. There was a huge falling out because of the decision, many people left immediately, and ever since that church has gradually lost more and more of its membership. They watered down their fundamental teachings, embraced diversity and social justice, adopted churchian teachings, and are for the most part morally bankrupt, not to mention nearly financially bankrupt.

If I was more economically savvy and had greater familiarity with their financial state, I would make a guess on the exact time of their eventual collapse. But even without that knowledge and expertise, it's only been 34 years since the initial influx of female clergy and they're more or less dead already.
Christian civilization is a battle that must be fought and refought by each and every generation if it is to survive. The two generations before us lost. Let us do better. Deus vult!

But win or lose, do not despair. Remember, where there are two, there are always three.

Labels: ,

163 Comments:

Blogger Teleros February 20, 2018 11:11 AM  

For those interested, here is the rest of the quoted sermon:

http://www.centerplace.org/library/sermons/OakmanArthur_19661013_TowardSpiritualEndowment.htm

Anonymous Anonymous February 20, 2018 11:19 AM  

"But He only becomes their Father when they are obedient to the gospel of Jesus Christ."

That is SO HARD to get across to people. Almost daily I hear that "we're all God's children" crap.
No, the VAST MAJORITY of mankind are NOT God's children.

If they are God's children, why do they behave like Satan's children?

Blogger Out of Nod February 20, 2018 11:23 AM  

I appreciate the post Vox - I needed the encouragement and the food for thought

Blogger Aeoli February 20, 2018 11:26 AM  

Deus vult. I will cling to my God and my guns. They may yet pry my guns from my cold, dead fingers, but they can't take away my reward in heaven for fighting.

Blogger Azimus February 20, 2018 11:27 AM  

I think a lot of people read Revelation, read about "War in Heaven", and watch the Hollywood blockbusters and think of spiritual warfare as fighting with weapons and strength, on open battlefields against organized armies of slimy black things. That is a potentially deadly misunderstanding of what spiritual warfare is.

While actual physical violence sometimes happens, and those are the stories that give us goose bumps, that isn't actual spiritual warfare, or a spiritual attack.

Spiritual warfare is the cloying sweetness of sin. It's the quiet muttering during your favorite sci-fi show that says "maybe this is all a random accident and we're here for nothing." Its the endless chorus of people who say that your faith fills you with hate because you refuse to call good evil or evil good. It's doubt. It's discouragement and frustration. It's anything that causes us to drop our spiritual weapons (there is a reason the Bible is called a sword) and leave the fighting for someone else to do.

Don't be discouraged brothers and sisters. I love VD's closing to this post. It is a reminder that we have the truth, and while the truth itself does not always triumph simply by being revealed as such (re: the Nunes memo), having the truth can give us the resolve to arm ourselves for spiritual battle and push to victory.

Blogger Stickwick Stapers February 20, 2018 11:41 AM  

We left the ELCA several years ago, when the social justice stuff was getting to be too much. It’s now far beyond anything I could’ve imagined.

From the website of one of the local ELCA churches:

We invite you to join us for dynamic and spiritual services, rich with music that honors traditions while celebrating diversity. 

This Sunday join us for a rainbow breakfast celebration of our LGBTQ siblings. We’ll mark the occasion by officially announcing our membership in www.reconcilingworks.org,which advocates for the full welcome, inclusion, and equity of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer (LGBTQ) Lutherans in all aspects of the life of their Church, congregations, and community. All…all…all…all are welcome!

From the Reconciling Works website:

Supporters of LGBTQIA+ people and families are not the minority in our Lutheran church, but are the growing majority.

From the children’s ministry curriculum, “Godly Play”:

Activity choices included a drum circle or a panel discussion on local justice issues. For the panel, we invited a church historian, a civil rights activist who helped desegregate the school across the street, and a county teacher and her student who are currently engaged in the struggle for LGBTQ student rights. Participants considered the similarities between those issues which now seem clear to us, and those we are still learning.

It will surprise precisely no one that the pastor of the local church is a young woman who looks like a lesbian, the youth ministry curriculum was developed by a female educator, and a lot of the services, ministries, and activities are centered on “feminist theology,” inclusion, diversity, etc.

Does anyone still doubt that allowing women into the clergy was a bad idea?

Blogger Koanic February 20, 2018 11:44 AM  

Japan prays to idols, and turns away the invader. Should God call you his own, who love not your own? Are you not worse than the unbelievers? By their fruit ye shall know them, except when that fruit is a cuckoo's egg.

Blogger James Dixon February 20, 2018 11:49 AM  

> Remember, where there are two, there are always three.

"...and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."

Anonymous Anonymous February 20, 2018 11:55 AM  

Vox, it's my impression that you're not totally on board with the last sentence of the Oakman quote. Am I incorrect?

"... hence we must preach the gospel of Jesus Christ in every place, that His Spirit might motivate men so that they may come to know Him."

Blogger DonReynolds February 20, 2018 11:57 AM  

The Christian Culture has always been very frustrating for Leftist Radicals. Most of them simply reject it entirely and spend much of their time either attacking Christian institutions and holidays and traditions or they embrace foreign religions from Asia or the Middle East. But there are those Leftist Radicals who see Christianity as a convenient vehicle to advance the Leftist agenda. They cherry pick what they believe can be twisted to support their agenda and either ignore or reject what they find terribly inconvenient. There is nothing Christian or Christ-like about the Social Gospel or Revolution Theology or Liberation Theology. These are political actors who are determined to subvert the church to their own political agenda. They are the enemy and some of them openly admit it.

Blogger Danby February 20, 2018 11:58 AM  

What is it with you clowns that want to interrogate Vox's theology?

Theology doesn't save. Satan's theology is several orders of magnitude more accurate than any human's.

Anonymous Anonymous February 20, 2018 12:03 PM  

"Satan's theology is several orders of magnitude more accurate than any human's."

True enough. And if there was a way to get his thoughts, I'd ask him, too.

Blogger CarpeOro February 20, 2018 12:04 PM  

@5 I was raised in the ALC (which was one of the churches that merged to form the ELCA). I went back to the church I was confirmed in and talked to the last pastor that I had known there some years later to ask specifically have my name struck from the membership rolls. This was around the time they were discussing something along the lines of allowing gays some kind of roll or other (been to many years to recall what, but well before ordination - assuming that is allowed now). The pastor was an older man when he got to the congregation. He said that they were merely "considering" whatever it was - I answered that it was against scripture so even considering it was wrong. He was a pleasant enough individual, but definitely a symptom of the decay of the church. He failed to make sure others wouldn't lead his congregation down the wrong path.
I was a member of a Mennonite branch know as the Missionary Church for awhile, but to be honest I have been disinclined to join any specific sect since then.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother February 20, 2018 12:04 PM  

The lion will one day lie down with the lamb. Therefore in my mortal life on this earth, I will lay down my weapons and lay down with the savage/muslim/communist/abortionist.

Blogger Rick February 20, 2018 12:10 PM  

I suppose with feminism came the idea that the Priesthood somehow was a better gig and males where denying these valuable goodies to females. Like the Oscars or something. Not one small result of this thinking (category error?) is that this has greatly devalued the critical roles of women in the church. I say there are roles within the Church reserved for women which cannot be filled by men. Not for Lawful reasons men can't fill them, but because men can't fill them nearly as well, by their nature. Otherwise, this is not true, and never was, but a pointless exercise: male and female, He created them.

Blogger crypto.fashion February 20, 2018 12:15 PM  

All we need is Twelve.

https://crypto.fashion/products/all-we-need-is-twelve-tee

Blogger Solaire Of Astora February 20, 2018 12:15 PM  

Do the 'Christians' who advocate for LGBT people in churches actually believe in the God of the bible or God at all? Or are they purposely infiltrating to pull off an inside job? Or maybe it's some combination of both? I can understand the anti-nationalist Churchians who think nationalism is evil, they're obviously wrong but it's at least understandable. I really can't grasp the mindset of those who take it further.

Blogger James Dixon February 20, 2018 12:16 PM  

> True enough. And if there was a way to get his thoughts, I'd ask him, too.

Have you tried? Literature seems to support that's he willing to communicate for a small fee.

Blogger James Dixon February 20, 2018 12:18 PM  

> Do the 'Christians' who advocate for LGBT people in churches actually believe in the God of the bible or God at all?

As a general rule, no.

Blogger VD February 20, 2018 12:25 PM  

Am I incorrect?

Yes. I have no problem whatsoever with Christians going to the nations and preaching the Gospel to them. I have a problem with Churchians who claim that adulterating their own nation and facilitating its invasion is somehow preaching the Gospel.

I believe that anti-nationalism is literally Satanic and it is one of the deceptions of which we are warned in the Bible.

Blogger Koanic February 20, 2018 12:33 PM  

I wouldn't voluntarily talk to the Devil any more than I'd lock eyes with one of Tolkien's dragons. There is such a thing as "above my pay grade".

Blogger Peaceful Poster February 20, 2018 12:35 PM  

What is it with you clowns that want to interrogate Vox's theology?

You mean his Theo-logy?

Anonymous Anonymous February 20, 2018 12:41 PM  

@5
Does anyone still doubt that allowing women into the clergy was a bad idea?

It's a bad idea because Paul forbid it.

But alas, that verse gets glossed over, along the ones about female and wife behavior in general.

Because of the 'everyone is equal in Christ' nonsense.

Anonymous Anonymous February 20, 2018 12:46 PM  

Vox: Yes. I have no problem...
Fair Enough.

Koanic: I wouldn't voluntarily talk to the Devil any more than I'd lock eyes with one of Tolkien's dragons.

Agreed. I'm imagining an AMA with Satan where he (for some arbitrary reason) has to answer truthfully. I have a few questions I'd like to post.

Blogger Skyler the Weird February 20, 2018 12:49 PM  

I had a couple of Lesbian pastors from Candler Seminary at Emory University in Atlanta tell me homosexuality is not a sin it inhospitality to foreign visitors that is. They believe that's why Sodom was condemned not because the men wanted to sodomized the Angels.

Blogger Koanic February 20, 2018 12:57 PM  

The Old Testament is clear that a whore and a male Sodomite are equivalent.

Blogger Koanic February 20, 2018 12:58 PM  

Well, sorry, not equivalent, a Sodomite is worse, nobody gets nuked for having whores. But they are placed parallel in the Law's proscriptions.

Blogger VD February 20, 2018 12:58 PM  

Because of the 'everyone is equal in Christ' nonsense.

If all men and women are equal, and Jesus was a man, then Jesus was no different or better than anyone else.

Therefore all men and women are not equal.

Blogger John Q Public February 20, 2018 12:59 PM  

Mormon

Blogger Patrick Kelly February 20, 2018 12:59 PM  

"What is it with you clowns that want to interrogate Vox's theology?"

They get off on invoking his name.

Blogger James Dixon February 20, 2018 1:00 PM  

> Agreed. I'm imagining an AMA with Satan where he (for some arbitrary reason) has to answer truthfully. I have a few questions I'd like to post.

If you're not willing to pay the price, then you don't really want to know, do you?

Blogger Nate73 February 20, 2018 1:01 PM  

This idea of women coming in and ruining everything is fascinating. Does Creveld go into detail to explain it? How does it work? Why do women ruin some fields and not others like nursing? Or do they?

Anonymous Anonymous February 20, 2018 1:02 PM  

@24
Liberals lie. They lie about anything and everything that might force them to make an honest evaluation of their worthless, corrupt lives.

Blogger Danby February 20, 2018 1:05 PM  

vfmshadow0342 wrote:It's a bad idea because Paul forbid it.


No, Paul forbade it because it's a bad idea and contrary to the will of God.

Blogger phunktor February 20, 2018 1:12 PM  

Just started attending LCMS. Seems solid.

Blogger James February 20, 2018 1:24 PM  

Given Occam's Razor, what do you think the probability is that carpet munching priests actually believe they are doing the Lord's work? Wouldn't it be more likely they know perfectly well how they deliberately distort the Word of God? Charitable people have a tendency to excuse such deception with the view that these "wannabes" are the victims of "cognitive dissonance". If this is what you believe, ruminate on this:

Romans 2:14-15
14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law ARE WRITTEN ON THEIR HEARTS, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.

Now, I personally believe that this only refers to the children of Adam, but it seems obvious when we look at the self-destructive behavior homosexuals engage in. They "know in their heart" that they are condemned and they destroy themselves. How much worse for someone claiming to be a pastor or priest?

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!"

"For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive."

"And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds."

"But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ...

Blogger Carl Philipp February 20, 2018 1:29 PM  

@13
The lion will lay down with the lamb - but here and now, you probably couldn't make much money off a Christian petting zoo.

Blogger Danby February 20, 2018 1:35 PM  

James wrote:what do you think the probability is that carpet munching priests actually believe they are doing the Lord's work?
I'd say 100%, given the fact that this type universally constructs an idol in their own image and call it Lord.

Blogger Michael O'Duibhir February 20, 2018 1:39 PM  

4 marks: one, holy, Catholic and apostolic.

Blogger Anne February 20, 2018 1:48 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Resident Moron™ February 20, 2018 1:53 PM  

BBC reports four-fold increase in measles in Europe over 2017 ...

Just a coincidence, I'm sure.

Blogger freddie_mac February 20, 2018 1:55 PM  

@24 Skyler the Weird
homosexuality is not a sin it inhospitality to foreign visitors that is
*nods* yep, I sure remember that bit about inhospitality in Leviticus /sarc

@30 Nate 73
Why do women ruin some fields and not others like nursing?
Not sure if women do ruin nursing (where's BBGKB when we need him?), but my first thought is that nursing plays to women's strengths

@33 phunktor
Just started attending LCMS. Seems solid.
I've been attending an LCMS church for the past six months, and have been quite pleased. There's enough familiarity that a cradle Catholic doesn't feel lost, but also distinctly Lutheran aspects (Nunc Dimitis, "I a poor miserable sinner") that stand out as different.

The Adult Instructions classes have been helpful, and I've been learning more about RC theology as we work through the Lutheran theology. Nice to have just two books to reference: the Bible and Book of Concord/Concordia.

However, as I'm always looking for more books to read, here's two more that I'm reading: "The Lutheran Difference" (edited by EA Engelbrecht) and "Hallmarks of Lutheran Identity" (by Alvin J. Schmidt), both of which do a good job of specifying how Lutheran doctrine differs from other Christian denominations.

Blogger Anne February 20, 2018 1:56 PM  

Nursing used to be a male field. Whether women ruined it is not something I can back up.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener February 20, 2018 2:06 PM  

The left and the churchians have rejected Christ, and nothing in logic, history, or science supports their absurd belief in equality and brotherhood among men in this world.

Blogger Latigo3 February 20, 2018 2:14 PM  

Each generation must have a born again experience with Jesus Christ and each generation must fight evil; that is was I have part of most of my sermons in the last 6 months.
Jesus called 12 men, enough said.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 20, 2018 2:21 PM  

"4 marks: one, holy, Catholic and apostolic."

You just can't help your disingenuous monomania can you?

Blogger Aeoli February 20, 2018 2:26 PM  

4 marks: one, holy, Catholic and apostolic.

Which part of "Go to Hell you piece of shit" was unclear?

Blogger Aeoli February 20, 2018 2:28 PM  

Looks like it got spammed. But still though.

Blogger Koanic February 20, 2018 2:28 PM  

4 marks, for Marx, what's the difference?

Blogger Danby February 20, 2018 2:31 PM  

@Michael,
knock it off. You're just another Irishman looking for a fight.

Blogger S1AL February 20, 2018 2:33 PM  

"Why do women ruin some fields and not others like nursing?"

The same reason they don't ruin sewing circles.

Blogger Koanic February 20, 2018 2:34 PM  

Women work well under direct minute-to-minute male supervision. Doctors traditionally fulfill that role for nurses.

Blogger hideous February 20, 2018 2:44 PM  

Especially like those last few words, Vox.
IMO would make a really great crypto fashion shirt:

Where there are two,
There are always three.

Blogger LBascom February 20, 2018 2:46 PM  

Mr Vox Day, I have been a life long Christian, though in my early twenties before saved, yet only recently have I discovered an important biblical truth. Through chance I caught an episode of 'Forgotten Truths' with pastor Richard Jordan, and I encourage all Christians to see his videos on YouTube.

What he teaches is 'dispensational' bible study, or understanding the bible rightly divided. What it boils down to is the bible has a timeline divided into three categories; first, Genesis through the middle of Acts which was the time of prophecy, which continued from the earth's creation to just after Pentecost, where the nation of Israel, 'the circumcision, was God's agency on earth.

Second, Romans through Philemon which concerns us, Gentiles, now. After the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah, His earthy kingship was postponed, and the mystery hidden from the world since before the foundations of the earth were formed was revealed to Saul, who became the apostle to the Gentiles as Paul with the mission of forming the body of Christ through salvation by Grace.

Third, Hebrews through Revelation, times to come. This part of the bible is again aimed at the Jews, after the Christians have been raptured into the heavens, and Jesus returns to rule the earth as well as the heavens. The resumption of the prophecy plan.

Once this is understood, the bible makes much more sense. All of the bible is about God, but not all of the bible is about you. We are not under the law as in the old testament, and the earthly ministry of Jesus was for the nation of Israel, not us Gentiles. When Jesus sent out his 12 apostles, He specifically told then NOT to go into the Gentiles.

If you want to know how to live as a Christian, follow the teachings of Paul. The rest of the Bible, again, is not about you.

Blogger Lovekraft February 20, 2018 2:54 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Lovekraft February 20, 2018 2:56 PM  

A wide assortment of sermons from the 50s.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/

Blogger RC February 20, 2018 3:00 PM  

@LBascom - Make things as simple as possible but not simpler. Revelation provides a roadmap that ties together prophecy placed throughout the Bible, Daniel for one example.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener February 20, 2018 3:01 PM  

"Remember, where there are two, there are always three."

I wonder how many people would think this is a Star Wars reference.

Blogger Lovekraft February 20, 2018 3:12 PM  

@51 LBascom:

Interesting. If I'm not mistaken, it appears to claim that there is a clear divide at present between Jew and Gentile, each having their own separate theological focus in the Bible. Is that correct?

I would think that there will always be a place at all times for Jews but only when they come around to accepting the sovereignty of Jesus Christ.

Blogger LBascom February 20, 2018 3:17 PM  

Mr. RC, compare and contrast Isaiah 40:21 and Romans 16:25.

There was a prophecy plan and a mystery plan. The first was to make Jesus the ruler of the earth through the nation of Israel, the second to make Him ruler of the heavens through the body of Christ.

Prophecy was known, and not about us, as Christians. The church of Christ was a mystery until revealed to Paul,

Blogger Danby February 20, 2018 3:31 PM  

@LBascom,
That's a nice explanatory contrivance you've got there. Pity it's simple-minded and wrong.

Blogger Chiva February 20, 2018 3:42 PM  

@LBascom.
If you have an interest in prophecy then you may want to read "Footsteps of the Messiah".

Blogger Patrick Kelly February 20, 2018 3:55 PM  

Dispensationalism is not new or hidden.

Blogger LBascom February 20, 2018 3:56 PM  

Mr. Lovekraft, I encourage you to look up Richard Jordan on YouTube, he explains much better than I can.

My short answer, there is a huge divide between Jew and Christian, though Jews can and should accept Christ as their savior.

Read the book of Hebrews (noticing the very name of the book shows it isn't meant for us!), imagining you are a Jew after the rapture. You (in the imagining) are being given a last chance (Hebrews 10:26) to accept the new testament, the old having faded away.

Doesn't it make more sense looking at it this way, reading dispensationaly?

Blogger Michael O'Duibhir February 20, 2018 4:01 PM  

It's just an historical fact: the Church founded by our blessed Lord Jesus Christ was, and still is, the Roman Catholic
Church. Read your history. The enemies of God hate that fact--but it's still a fact. The religion of Protestantism was based on the absurd premise of "protesting" that religion which existed prior to Protestantism and then claiming that Christ did not found that pre-existing religion. But I get it: Protestantism allows one to interpret the Bible any way one sees fit, ergo one can do what one wants to do. There will never be a melding of Protestantism with Catholicism. Man's task in this brief time on earth is to choose the truth. Once your dead it's too late.

Blogger Desdichado February 20, 2018 4:04 PM  

John Q Public wrote:Mormon
If Oakman was a Mormon, then Protestants are actually Catholics.

Blogger weka February 20, 2018 4:09 PM  

Oakham and the RLDS is a good warning.

1. They are Mormon, that peculiar American Heresy. They are more susceptable to the spirit of this age than a credal church.
2. They let in women priests and declined. They renamed themselves, falsely, and that did not help.
3. Those who were Mormon split from them.

From infogalactic:

"In the 1970s and 1980s, the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (now call the Community of Christ) was criticized from within its membership for various changes in policy and leadership. This included including female priesthood, the ending of doctrine of Lineal succession, and the construction of the Independence Temple.

This led to several branches of the RLDS Church to form a group of independent Restoration Branches. In May 1999, several members of this group met as the Conference of Restoration Elders, including Frederick Niels Larsen. They published the "Proclamation and Invitation to the Faithful", which lead to the creation of the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints on April 6, 2000.

In April 2002, as a descendant of Joseph Smith, Larsen was chosen to become the President of the High Priesthood of the Remnant Church. Members of the Remnant Church also believe that Larsen is the "One Mighty and Strong",a person of unknown identity who was the subject of an 1832 prophecy by Joseph Smith.

In the Remnant Church published a timeline for the construction of a temple in Jackson County, Missouri. Ground-breaking for the temple is listed as by April 2016, with completion by April 2018. This would make the Remnant Church the eighth Latter Day Saint denomination to have built a temple."

The RDLS is a warning. Firstly, worship Christ. Secondly, don't let an entryist in -- Oaken was a Pom, what is he doing running a very Yankee bunch in error, Thirdly, don't double down on your errors.

The reason why I read a lot of Catholic and Orthodox theology is because I'm reformed. They can correct our errors.

And we should all should know we are not perfect: no one is, but Christ. The current cult of self esteem is a deeper and more deadly heresy than anything Joseph Smith wrought.

Blogger LBascom February 20, 2018 4:12 PM  

Mr. Danby, I would only direct you to 1 Corinthians 1:21-23.

Blogger OneWingedShark February 20, 2018 4:13 PM  

Michael O'Duibhir wrote:It's just an historical fact: the Church founded by our blessed Lord Jesus Christ was, and still is, the Roman Catholic Church. Read your history. The enemies of God hate that fact--but it's still a fact. The religion of Protestantism was based on the absurd premise of "protesting" that religion which existed prior to Protestantism and then claiming that Christ did not found that pre-existing religion. But I get it: Protestantism allows one to interpret the Bible any way one sees fit, ergo one can do what one wants to do. There will never be a melding of Protestantism with Catholicism. Man's task in this brief time on earth is to choose the truth. Once your dead it's too late.
Protestantism is protesting the Pope [and, more specifically, the assumed superiority]. It is quite telling that you use the argument "Protestantism allows one to interpret the Bible any way one sees fit, ergo one can do what one wants to do" because this quite explicitly rejects the work of the Holy Spirit within the life of any particular Christian, particularly with respect to the interpretation of scripture.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd February 20, 2018 4:15 PM  

People, salvation comes from Christ. It's His church, and He is the one who decides whether you're in it or not. If you are Christian, denomination doesn't matter. If you are not Christian, denomination doesn't matter.

Blogger Lovekraft February 20, 2018 4:45 PM  

@61 LBascom:

Sounds good and I wish you the best in your journey.

Somewhat o/t but I was thinking today about Islam's women wearing various levels of concealment and I thought of cocoons, as though they are going through a metamorphosis. I really don't care about that religion as I have only seen and heard horrible things about it, but I do wonder what is going to emerge once the mullahs unleash their fury.

Blogger James February 20, 2018 4:51 PM  

Danby wrote:James wrote:what do you think the probability is that carpet munching priests actually believe they are doing the Lord's work?

I'd say 100%, given the fact that this type universally constructs an idol in their own image and call it Lord.


I think you know, as well as I do, that it is not 100%. Most of the clergy spent their time on questions of doctrinal interpretations. And doctrine is always presented in black and white. Once they became aware that it was either not all black and white or that it was misinterpretation, deliberate or not, they either chose to leave, accept it as the lesser of evils, or embraced the scam. Review the history of the Catholic church. Do you actually think they believed in indulgences, confession, idol worship, the infallibility of the Pope, Purgatory, etc? Some, maybe. Most not. But, they benefited from the scam and it beat working for a living.

I will acknowledge that there are some of these pseudo clergy that are true believers. I don't think the majority are. However, I think their subconscious intrudes in unpleasant ways. I think fags and lesbo priests have read the Bible, which is unequivocally clear on homosexuality. They may have had an initial faith based on the fact that God can forgive them. That doesn't mean that God will forgive them if they continue in their apostasy. They have to reduce Christianity down to a feel good religion with an olly, olly oxen free clause at the end of the game. If you have any intelligence at all, you will eventually see that if you eliminate 99% of something and just adhere to the 1% that fits your personal desires, you will eventually realize that you might as well be a Scientologist. When they choose to stay, a lot of what they do rests on getting their parishioners to believe as they do. Other people's acceptance gives them to pretend they are on the right path.

Blogger James Dixon February 20, 2018 4:54 PM  

> It's His church, and He is the one who decides whether you're in it or not.

Absolutely true. Also a complete waste of electrons, unfortunately.

Blogger William Chad Newsom February 20, 2018 4:56 PM  

LBascom: Dispensationalism is what got us into this mess. Darby, Moody, Scofield, and later, Lindsey, LaHaye, et al, teaching a “Jesus is coming soon” theology, encouraged (implicitly or explicitly) Christians to disengage from culture since it was all about to burn anyway. After all, as Moody put it, “why polish the brass on a sinking ship?”

So Christians retreated from law, politics, arts, education, and more, and the enemies of Christendom rushed to fill the void. While Christians were sitting around waiting for the Rapture, the West began to slide faster into Hell.

Jesus is NOT coming soon. He gave us the Great Commission: to disciple the nations, and He expects us to fulfill it. We made a great run at it in the past two millennia, but we’re far from finished. The work will probably take 50 – 100,000 years, minimum. We’re still in the time of the early church now.

And Revelation (and Hebrews, etc.) are NOT about “the time to come.” Over and over, Jesus, John, and Paul tell us that they are writing about an imminent, first century judgment, which fell in the time of Great Tribulation in the years immediately preceding AD 70. Here’s just one example, in the VERY FIRST VERSE of Revelation (emphasis mine):

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS…”

That was written in the first century. They knew what “shortly” “soon” and “near” meant back then. It didn't mean "two thousand years from now."

Dispensationalism will cripple Christendom as it has in the past. It is vital that we abandon it as soon as possible.

Blogger Danby February 20, 2018 5:00 PM  

James wrote:Review the history of the Catholic church. Do you actually think they believed in indulgences, confession, idol worship, the infallibility of the Pope, Purgatory, etc? Some, maybe. Most not. But, they benefited from the scam and it beat working for a living.
Now that's funny, 'cause I'm a Catholic
And, no, Catholics do not, and have never, worshiped idols. Ever.
And yes, all the rest is actually true. If you read from sources that actually understood the doctrines of the Church instead of inventing new pernicious evils to claim that she preaches, you would ata least give us the courtesy of not repeating lies.

Blogger Were-Puppy February 20, 2018 5:07 PM  

@13 Stg58/Animal Mother
The lion will one day lie down with the lamb.
---

One thing that is scary when looking into the Mandela Effect - that verse has been changed. it's now about a wolf lying down with a lamb...

I checked an old 1910 bible and it was changed there too.

I don't know what to make of it .

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 20, 2018 5:21 PM  

"It's just an historical fact: the Church founded by our blessed Lord Jesus Christ was, and still is, the Roman Catholic Church. Read your history."

A historic lie. Yes, I know some of you guys try to claim sole legitimacy by saying Peter was your first pope. I also know that that's hogwash, and even if it he was the first catholic pope, it still wouldn't make you the sole legitimate church.

It's only a matter of time before you get spammed for repeatedly lying though, even about several other things. Good riddance.

Blogger EricW February 20, 2018 5:28 PM  

Any recommendations for a trustworthy Bible to purchase? Seems like there may be some less reliable translations out there.

Blogger weka February 20, 2018 5:32 PM  

FFS, this is not supposed to be round #4567 of Papists versus Prods. Both the Papists and Prods have converged heirarchies, and even the Orthodox are not immune (though communism immunized them somewhat).

I find more in common, as a fairly reformed Presbyterian, with Catholic and Orthodox believers than most ministers in the NZ Presbyterians -- and I consider the PCUSA to be heretical.

When brothers meet, there is unity. When the fallen meet, they make conflict.

Blogger weka February 20, 2018 5:33 PM  

@74. NASB is good. KJV is beautiful. ESV is probably the next best. Avoid those with gender neutral language (NRSV, NIV).

Blogger Nate February 20, 2018 5:36 PM  

Oh look.

Trump has gone full retard and called for a Bump Stock ban.

Yankees.

Every. Damn. Time.

Blogger James February 20, 2018 5:40 PM  

Danby wrote:James wrote:Review the history of the Catholic church. Do you actually think they believed in indulgences, confession, idol worship, the infallibility of the Pope, Purgatory, etc? Some, maybe. Most not. But, they benefited from the scam and it beat working for a living.

Now that's funny, 'cause I'm a Catholic

And, no, Catholics do not, and have never, worshiped idols. Ever.

And yes, all the rest is actually true. If you read from sources that actually understood the doctrines of the Church instead of inventing new pernicious evils to claim that she preaches, you would ata least give us the courtesy of not repeating lies.


Well, just for starters, maybe you could show it where it speaks about Purgatory in the Bible? Or worshipping Mary as the Mother of God? Or the Pope, much less the infallibility of same? Or how a human being that just molested a 10 year boy could either absolve your sins or change wine and unleavened bread into the blood and flesh of the Messiah? Just for starters. If you can document these things, I'll actually consider what you have to say.

Blogger Patrick Kelly February 20, 2018 5:41 PM  

"the Orthodox are not immune (though communism immunized them somewhat)"

Currently our local parish controversy deals with if and when women are aloud to lead reading or chanting scriptures or hymns out loud during liturgy.

Ordaining women as clergy? You would have to convince our Bishop to ask our Patriarch to propose such a change as part of another Ecumenical Council.

Good luck with that.

Blogger Nate February 20, 2018 5:42 PM  

"Or worshipping Mary as the Mother of God?"

dude stop. No one worships Mary. And the Bible clearly states that her name will raised up above others forever.

Blogger James Dixon February 20, 2018 5:43 PM  

> Any recommendations for a trustworthy Bible to purchase? Seems like there may be some less reliable translations out there.

Bible or just New Testament? If you don't trust translations, the New Testament was originally written in Koine Greek. One readily available source for it is http://biblehub.com/ but you might also want to check out http://sblgnt.com/download/ and then look at http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/39292 and http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/40935

Blogger Patrick Kelly February 20, 2018 5:43 PM  

"Trump has gone full retard and called for a Bump Stock ban."

Have some faith. He's suggested other crap that hasn't happened yet either.
8d chess and all that.

Heh.

Blogger James Dixon February 20, 2018 5:44 PM  

As for the best versions of the Bible, that's largely a matter of taste. My preference is for the King James Version, but YMMV.

Blogger Nate February 20, 2018 5:45 PM  

"Have some faith. He's suggested other crap that hasn't happened yet either.
8d chess and all that."

no. He's directed Sessions to come up with regulations that would ban bump stocks.

Blogger VFM #7634 February 20, 2018 5:45 PM  

"Both the Papists and Prods have converged hierarchies"

More to the point: the Prods haven't had valid sacraments (except Baptism and Matrimony) since the Reformation, and the Papists since Vatican II.

Blogger Patrick Kelly February 20, 2018 5:46 PM  

"even the Orthodox are not immune (though communism immunized them somewhat)."

The current controversy at our local parish is about if and when women may lead reading or chanting of scriptures or hymns in liturgy.

Want to ordain women as clergy? First you would have to ask our Bishop to convince our Patriarch to make such a proposal as part of a call for another Ecumenical Council.

Good luck with that.

Blogger James Dixon February 20, 2018 5:46 PM  

> Or how a human being that just molested a 10 year boy could either absolve your sins or change wine and unleavened bread into the blood and flesh of the Messiah?

Even for the Roman Catholics, the priest doesn't do that; Christ does.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 20, 2018 5:50 PM  

"FFS, this is not supposed to be round #4567 of Papists versus Prods."

Agreed. I'm not either one, but it irks when someone comes in pushing their monomaniacal focus and propaganda.

I'd agree to catholic, but Catholic is a proper noun.

All told, we need to start with the little things. Like excommunicating witches and antipopes.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd February 20, 2018 5:51 PM  

James Dixon wrote:> It's His church, and He is the one who decides whether you're in it or not.

Absolutely true. Also a complete waste of electrons, unfortunately.


A waste of electrons because the various cultists will read it, point at the adherents of the various other cults, and yell ``See? I told you so!''

If you think that denomination determines salvation, you are on the wrong track. If you think that sacraments save, you are on the wrong track. Jesus saves.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 20, 2018 5:53 PM  

" He's directed Sessions to come up with regulations that would ban bump stocks."

HAHAHAHAH. Sorry.

I think we both know where that's going to go. The only way to effectively ban bump stocks would be to ban semi automatic rifles. Hopefully this is just a ploy, since everyone with even a modicum of awareness knows that it simply can't happen.

Or, they could just ban unfinished blocks of wood and rubber bands. I'm sure that would go over well.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 20, 2018 5:54 PM  

"Jesus saves."

Ding!

Blogger Nate February 20, 2018 5:56 PM  

" Hopefully this is just a ploy, since everyone with even a modicum of awareness knows that it simply can't happen."

The fascinating thing here is... you think Trump has a modicum of awareness when it comes to stuff like this.

He's a yankee city boy. He doesn't.

Blogger Danby February 20, 2018 5:57 PM  

James wrote:Well, just for starters, maybe you could show it where it speaks about Purgatory in the Bible? Or worshipping Mary as the Mother of God? Or the Pope, much less the infallibility of same? Or how a human being that just molested a 10 year boy could either absolve your sins or change wine and unleavened bread into the blood and flesh of the Messiah? Just for starters. If you can document these things, I'll actually consider what you have to say.
We don't argue theology here. it's an annoying, pointless waste of time, even for the participants, but especially for the onlookers.
I will only point out that your "arguments" are dishonest repetitions of lies and leave it at that.

Blogger Andrew February 20, 2018 5:58 PM  

He's directed Sessions to come up with regulations that would ban bump stocks.

No doubt Sessions will do the Alabama thing and resign in protest.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 20, 2018 6:01 PM  

"The current controversy at our local parish is about if and when women may lead reading or chanting of scriptures or hymns in liturgy."

See, that's actually at least in the guise of a reasonable question. Immediate response though? "Why do they need to?" There's almost never going to be a valid need unless most of the men just up and died simultaneously somehow. Any other reason amounts to some level of social preening or peacocking, which just shouldn't happen.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 20, 2018 6:04 PM  

"He's a yankee city boy. He doesn't."

So you profess to know everything about the Trumpster?

If the competent people he surrounds himself with don't reign it in, and it's not strategically intentional...

...it's still not threatening. It'd be like a low-grade prohibition. Can't ban something any yahoo can make in their backyard out of basically everything.

Blogger Nate February 20, 2018 6:14 PM  

"So you profess to know everything about the Trumpster

I profess to have heard the words that came out of the moron's mouth.

Blogger David The Good February 20, 2018 6:16 PM  

Azure Amaranthine wrote:"He's a yankee city boy. He doesn't."

So you profess to know everything about the Trumpster?

If the competent people he surrounds himself with don't reign it in, and it's not strategically intentional...

...it's still not threatening. It'd be like a low-grade prohibition. Can't ban something any yahoo can make in their backyard out of basically everything.


That's not the point. The ownership of fully automatic weapons are our Constitutional right, which has already been infringed. Give the gun-grabbers nothing else. Nothing.

Blogger VFM #7634 February 20, 2018 6:18 PM  

"If you think that sacraments save, you are on the wrong track. Jesus saves."

Even the Catholics believe in something called "perfect contrition". But it's less reliable than the sacrament of penance. It's like walking 100 miles through a dangerous wilderness instead of getting a lift: you might make it, but you're likely to get killed and eaten along the way.

Also, there's the question of heresy.

Blogger stevo February 20, 2018 6:30 PM  

According to my wife who is an RN women ruined nursing school by trying to make it into a profession and of course convergence is everywhere. In practise it seems pretty no nonsense since it requires actual skills and results
But of course the nurses' unions are always trying to f things up.

Blogger Lazarus February 20, 2018 6:32 PM  

@96

I profess to have heard the words that came out of the moron's mouth.

You also heard him say he would sign anything the Congress came up with on DACA. It ended up with "dreamers" protesting Schumer.

Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira February 20, 2018 6:38 PM  

I'm not personally aware of ANY churches that are doing well in my end of the city. It's pretty bad.

Blogger Jeshurun February 20, 2018 6:48 PM  

Christian civilization? Christian civilization has no faith in God. Christian civilization trust in money, its standing armies and weapons of war.

If one were to do a review on religion for the past 2,000 years could anyone name me one righteous city its raised up in the world? Just one? Is there a righteous city today that the persecuted can flee to? But you sure can go to a building on Sunday and listen to a preacher say, "I have seen the fire!". The religions of the world, ALL of them, are the dust on the scales.

"...And the whole world was deceived..."

Blogger bw February 20, 2018 6:53 PM  

How art thou fallen from Heaven, Oh Lucifer, Son of the Morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst WEAKEN THE NATIONS Isaiah 14:12

Blogger James February 20, 2018 7:00 PM  

Danby wrote:James wrote:Well, just for starters, maybe you could show it where it speaks about Purgatory in the Bible? Or worshipping Mary as the Mother of God? Or the Pope, much less the infallibility of same? Or how a human being that just molested a 10 year boy could either absolve your sins or change wine and unleavened bread into the blood and flesh of the Messiah? Just for starters. If you can document these things, I'll actually consider what you have to say.

We don't argue theology here. it's an annoying, pointless waste of time, even for the participants, but especially for the onlookers.

I will only point out that your "arguments" are dishonest repetitions of lies and leave it at that.


So, you've got nothing? Then don't speak about lies. Lies are demonstrable.

Blogger Danby February 20, 2018 7:10 PM  

I've got plenty, you little gamma punk. This is not the place for it. Or do you need spammage too?

Blogger Lovekraft February 20, 2018 7:12 PM  

@102 Jeshurun:

Not entirely relevant, but one rule I've developed that has helped immensely in maintaining a balanced outlook and losing enmity is this:

look not at what someone or some group has done to you that was negative, but appreciate that there may have been many hidden things they did that were good, or to your benefit. Or that their actions that affected you negatively were simply expressions of their undeveloped spirituality/morality and should have no real bearing on how they affect you (i.e. rantings of a child. This ties into E. Tolle's pain body concept).

Kind of ties into having faith.

Blogger Daniel February 20, 2018 7:20 PM  

In one point i start thinking this was a joke

Blogger S1AL February 20, 2018 7:22 PM  

Guys, Chalcedon was almost 1600 years ago. None of you are smart enough to solve the issues that have accumulated since then. Just stop. Focus on the real battle.

Blogger Thane Eichenauer February 20, 2018 7:27 PM  

"where there are two, there are always three."

Could someone explain this reference?

Blogger SirHamster February 20, 2018 7:39 PM  

Thane Eichenauer wrote:"where there are two, there are always three."

Could someone explain this reference?


Jesus: "... or where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

2 Christians together + Jesus = ...

Blogger SirHamster February 20, 2018 7:40 PM  

Which should give us Christians second thoughts if we're only bickering among ourselves.

Blogger Abyssus Invocat February 20, 2018 8:46 PM  

As a Catholic and bitter clinger, I pray every day for a Pope who will do what needs to be done and say what needs to be said- charter a new order of Templars, purge the priesthood, and call a Crusade.

Blogger bw February 20, 2018 9:41 PM  

As a Catholic and bitter clinger, I pray every day for a Pope

lolz

Blogger Koanic February 20, 2018 9:46 PM  

> If you want to know how to live as a Christian, follow the teachings of Paul.

Paulstianity is Lolstianity.

> there is a huge divide between Jew and Christian, though Jews can and should accept Christ as their savior.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. And here you claim to follow Paul!

> No one worships Mary.

False.

"It has been said, and the statement is by no means unfounded, that Mariolatry is the practical religion of South America. In the wall of the ancient Jesuit church in Cuzco are cut the words, “Come unto Mary, all ye who are burdened and weary with your sins, and she will give you rest.”"

> And the Bible clearly states that her name will raised up above others forever.

No, that's Jesus' name.

"Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,"

> And, no, Catholics do not, and have never, worshiped idols.

"Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it."

Jehovah doesn't care about your fig leaf. You bow before a statue, you're toast. You pray at a statue, you're toast.

Blogger bw February 20, 2018 9:50 PM  

imagining you are a Jew after the rapture

lolzlozlozl

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 20, 2018 9:50 PM  

"That's not the point. The ownership of fully automatic weapons are our Constitutional right"

I completely agree. The same thought was already running through my mind, in addition to even heavier weaponry.

I just don't see it (this particular infringement attempt) happening.

Blogger Danby February 20, 2018 10:00 PM  

Koanic wrote:A buch of BS
Thankfully, we don't have to worry about your idiosyncratic opinion on these matter, Koanic.

Blogger James Dixon February 20, 2018 10:03 PM  

> A waste of electrons because the various cultists will read it, point at the adherents of the various other cults, and yell ``See? I told you so!''

Isn't that what I effectively said?

Blogger Brad Matthews February 20, 2018 10:17 PM  

Or it's more real than we could ever imagine fought with weapons that destroy solar systems and spans galaxies across time.

Blogger Koanic February 20, 2018 10:19 PM  

> Thankfully, we don't have to worry about your idiosyncratic opinion on these matter, Koanic.

Do you think I want you to listen? I want you to burn! Lest you be shown mercy because you were not warned, and escape judgment for destroying my homeland.

Anonymous Anonymous February 20, 2018 11:21 PM  

"And it's only in Christ that there is no Jew nor Gentile, there's no bond nor free. And in Christ, even in sex, there is no male nor female."

...SO the problem with women priests is????? They're in Christ. Church rules for the church: fairness, women priests, and second wave feminism (NOT third wave duh). All these things are consistent with Christ and Paul's teachings. Let hte Holy Spirit lead you in truth. It's not Father Son and Holy Bible you know.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 21, 2018 12:08 AM  

"Church rules for the church: fairness, women priests, and second wave feminism (NOT third wave duh). All these things are consistent with Christ and Paul's teachings. Let hte Holy Spirit lead you in truth. It's not Father Son and Holy Bible you know."

You are a lying, Satanic shitsack.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 21, 2018 12:09 AM  

What part of "Women may not speak" allows for them to be priests? None of it.

Blogger weka February 21, 2018 12:28 AM  

@121,@123 GreyGhosty, you confuse the universal need for salvation and the cross with the advice we have, when saved, on how to structure our churches.

Which we disobey at our peril.

Azure A. is correct. Women have no business speaking in church.

Blogger tim February 21, 2018 1:16 AM  

@ Stg58/MotherAnimal, Mandela Effect much? Open your Bible and check the text. It now says "wolf."

Blogger Megamerc February 21, 2018 1:26 AM  

John Q Public wrote:Mormon

No. Only in the sense that Oakman believed in the Book of Mormon. Do not speak hastily or ignorantly on the subject. Not a single member of the RLDS/Community of Christ would ever call themselves Mormon, in contrast to the Utah LDS. In fact, very much due their convergence, the RLDS/Community of Christ have largely stopped using the Book of Mormon in their churches.

Blogger Megamerc February 21, 2018 1:26 AM  


weka wrote:Oakham and the RLDS is a good warning.

1. They are Mormon, that peculiar American Heresy. They are more susceptable to the spirit of this age than a credal church.

2. They let in women priests and declined. They renamed themselves, falsely, and that did not help.

3. Those who were Mormon split from them.

The RDLS is a warning. Firstly, worship Christ. Secondly, don't let an entryist in -- Oaken was a Pom, what is he doing running a very Yankee bunch in error, Thirdly, don't double down on your errors.


1. No. Again, they are not Mormon, and no member of the RLDS/Community of Christ would ever call themselves such.

2. Yes, they let in female priests and immediately suffered for it. They renamed themselves the Community of Christ to differentiate themselves from the LDS "Mormon" church. They do not teach the particular Adam-God theory you are probably thinking of like the LDS church does, which essentially nullifies Christ's work. They are much more mainstream Christian, and their convergence is evidence of that. They are more Churchian than anything else.

3. You are actually correct on that. One who speaks from ignorance sometimes gets it right. The Utah LDS under Brigham Young split from the original LDS after Joseph Smith's death. Young wanted to teach polygamy, blood atonement, and the Adam-God theory, two of which he made up out of thin air. He took a mere 4% to 5% members of the original church founded by Smith out to Utah and began teaching the true heresies mentioned.

4. The RLDS is definitely a warning. But not for the first reason you cite. Again, do not speak hastily or ignorantly on the subject. Those more educated in the subject than you will very quickly find you without credibility.

Blogger Megamerc February 21, 2018 1:32 AM  

greyghosty wrote:SO the problem with women priests is????? They're in Christ. Church rules for the church: fairness, women priests, and second wave feminism (NOT third wave duh). All these things are consistent with Christ and Paul's teachings. Let hte Holy Spirit lead you in truth.

1) You are a liar. 2) You don't make the rules for the church. 3) You completely missed the point of the anecdote. 4) You have little to no understanding of the Scriptures or the Holy Spirit. 5) Repent of your sins sooner rather than later.

Blogger weka February 21, 2018 1:33 AM  

@126, 127.
Megamerc, I tolerate the Papists criticizing Calvin's correct exegesis. I suggest you review Revelation 22:18.

The Mormons are heretics: the book of Mormon is false.

Anonymous Anonymous February 21, 2018 1:54 AM  

Wow my wife was right..SOME of you sure are a bunch of dicks. I thought only SJWs should upset our amigdslas? This is crazy stuff with the Reformers and culty others . How can you get it so right on the left wing stuff and so wrong here? Has Satan blinded you that much? Nice SJW trick calling me Satan but its a sin to blaspheme the Hply Spirit. Be careful lest you come under earthly judgement. You are on the sude if right and truth but your Biblical foundation is shaky. Church rules for the church, the world has it's own prince. God instituted marriage in eden but aftet the fall clearly warned payriarchy would be a CURSE. A Description not a Prescription. Read Genesis to get a good grounding. Jesus and Paul both took Genesis literally BTW. See their in text references in the Bible.

Blogger Megamerc February 21, 2018 1:56 AM  

weka wrote:I suggest you review Revelation 22:18.

1. The subject of the cited verse is "prophecy" not book.

2. Revelation is a book within the Bible. It refers to itself, not the entire Bible, which is a compilation of many books.

3. There are three verses following the verse cited. By your logic the writer himself would have violated his own command.

4. By your logic the Bible should have ended at Proverbs 30:5-6, or even earlier at Deuteronomy 4:2.

5. The Bible had not been compiled at the time of the writing of Revelation.

6. 2 Timothy 3:16 states this: "And all scripture given by inspiration of God, is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." When Timothy was written, scripture was still being written and inspired. To think that inspiration has ceased is a very narrow view in many different senses.

7. You will have to read the Book of Mormon before telling me it is false. I am guessing you haven't. But do what you like. I won't tell you it's true.

Blogger Matt Heath February 21, 2018 1:56 AM  

Does anyone have a suggestion for an online, structured, bible study?

Blogger Megamerc February 21, 2018 2:01 AM  

Matt Heath wrote:Does anyone have a suggestion for an online, structured, bible study?

Depends on what you want to study within the Bible itself

Blogger Matt Heath February 21, 2018 2:02 AM  

A beginner's guide. Thank you.

Anonymous Anonymous February 21, 2018 2:06 AM  

I will finally add that I know 3rd wave feminism is dangerous and some of the men here are trying to get power back but all the women-hating is seriously shit. I mean that's not human, let alone Christian (dont give me the Jesus was a tough guy Mark Driscoll heresy cos we all know the context here). Seeems like there are a few secret gammas and bitter alimony-paying resentful dudes on these comments. You're welcome to be bitter and find sympathetic souls but serioulsy, misogny in this context is so foul. No other word for it. Jesus never treated women the way you do. Neither did Paul. He spoke eloquently on order in the church and love. Did he tell the Romans to stop treating their women as property? NOPE. Does that mean he thought they were chattals? NOPE. Did Paul tell the Romans to stop having slaves? NOPE. Does that mean he thought slavery was OK? He said No quite clearly but also didn't upset the status quo of the time. First wave suffragette's created a NEW status quo. LIVE WITH IT.

Blogger Megamerc February 21, 2018 2:12 AM  

You don't need anything from online, unless you don't have a physical Bible.

I suggest you start with Genesis, Exodus, and Deuteronomy. Skip everything you find boring. Then go to the four Gospels. Pay special attention to Jesus' life. Again, skip everything you find boring. If something piques your interest, however, follow that interest. Eventually you will become more interested in the parts you once found boring, and by following your interest you will discover many new things and build up a very good knowledge base of the Bible. When you find something you're interested in but can't understand, try using a Bible commentary (there are tons of them online) but you should also realize that there are many things in the Bible that very few people, if anybody, understands fully.

Most of all, enjoy it. If you view it as a chore you'll stop studying. That's why it's imperative to follow your interests while reading it.

Blogger Megamerc February 21, 2018 2:19 AM  

greyghosty wrote:Jesus never treated women the way you do.

I seriously doubt you know anything about how anybody here, including the women, treat other women in practice. But I do recall Jesus implying a certain woman was a dog.

Blogger LBascom February 21, 2018 2:32 AM  

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. And here you claim to follow Paul!"

Well, I was using Jew in the religion sense. As in, if an Israeli Jew accepts Christ as his savior he becomes an Israeli Christian.

Blogger weka February 21, 2018 2:37 AM  

@Megamerc, I'm on holiday and managed to spend a fair amount of today delving into the Community of Christ. They are bloody liberal. They have fallen into convergence. And for that they are a warning to us all.

I think the Mormons are following the same path... 40 years later.

@GreyGhosty. If you have hung around the Pentecostal Sunday Morning Nightclub -- which I have -- you will have seen chicks move into sin 'because the Spirit told me to'. There is a reason I left the megachurches and went reformed. Please stop thinking that what you write is without error. Test everything against scripture.

I'm note both consider the old evangelical faith -- of Luther and Calvin -- cultic. But the CoC and Mormons are outside orthodoxy for a reason, and some Pentecostal churches are further from that pale.

If you think my correction was harsh, I suggest you go and hang out with Markku or some of the Orthodox brothers here. Correction of false doctrine is part of it.

And since I consider the book of Mormon akin to the Koran, I'll go back to reading Mr Wright's latest novel.

Blogger Matt Heath February 21, 2018 2:58 AM  

Thanks mega merc.

Blogger Megamerc February 21, 2018 3:49 AM  

Matt Heath wrote:Thanks mega merc.

You're welcome. I hope you find it useful and worthwhile.

Blogger Blastman February 21, 2018 3:54 AM  

Koanic wrote: … > No one worships Mary.

False.

"It has been said, and the statement is by no means unfounded, that Mariolatry is the practical religion of South America. In the wall of the ancient Jesuit church in Cuzco are cut the words, “Come unto Mary, all ye who are burdened and weary with your sins, and she will give you rest.”"



Why do you repeat this nonsense? Catholic theology through the ages is clear on the veneration of Mary -- not worship. Catholics worship God. Such stupidity would have been excusable 20 years ago before the internet when protestants would regularly repeat such a lie, but these days with the Catholic theological teachings on Mary easily accessible online, there is little excuse for such ignorance.


Blogger Blastman February 21, 2018 4:08 AM  

^ Greyghosty wrote: … I will finally add that I know 3rd wave feminism is dangerous and some of the men here are trying to get power back but all the women-hating is seriously shit.^

What women-hating are you going on about? Do you seriously believe men and women are equal? And that women should be priests?

Blogger Koanic February 21, 2018 4:11 AM  

> but these days with the Catholic theological teachings on Mary easily accessible online, there is little excuse for such ignorance.

Sure, and Marxism doesn't work like that because the book says differently. Just ask any Marxist! Like the Pope.

Blogger Megamerc February 21, 2018 4:27 AM  

weka wrote:@Megamerc, I'm on holiday and managed to spend a fair amount of today delving into the Community of Christ. They are bloody liberal. They have fallen into convergence. And for that they are a warning to us all.

If you think my correction was harsh, I suggest you go and hang out with Markku or some of the Orthodox brothers here. Correction of false doctrine is part of it.


I hope you're having a good holiday, and glad you spent the day researching something you found at least a little bit interesting. I have spent over fifteen years in reading, discussing, and hearing about the history of the RLDS/CoC and the LDS churches, and am always glad to help out a novitiate on their first day.

I didn't think your correction was a correction at all, let alone harsh. In fact, I thought it was a rather feeble attempt and probably a simple repetition of something you heard elsewhere but never studied yourself. Your appeal to Markku and other Orthodox brothers confirms it for me. However, I would be glad to discuss this topic with them. Markku is formidable in many regards, but I'll take my chances. I have nothing to lose, and I doubt he does either, but whether or not he has the time or inclination is a much different matter.

Blogger Koanic February 21, 2018 4:50 AM  

The Mariolater's case rests on the word "Hail" spoken by the angel to Mary. But Jesus uses the same greeting to his disciples. It is Heaven's hello to the favored; nothing more.
http://biblehub.com/greek/5463.htm

No one in the New Testament venerates Mary after she gives birth. The only instance is immediately shot down by Jesus ("blessed are the paps"), and Protestants have been shooting it down ever since, in imitation of Christ.

If Jesus' mother mattered, then his brothers would've mattered:

"Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."

What kind of an idiot prays to those who themselves can't get an audience? They are not of the earthly court, much less the Heavenly one. You think Jesus, whom Peter denied thrice, doesn't know what it means to deny someone?! He doesn't even *call* her mother:

“When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!”

With Jesus' death died his earthly connection to his earthly mother, and another took that place.

Your heresy is new; we follow the old way. For Jesus was with Jehovah from the beginning, but Mary was not. To Hell with your false goddess, and your false teachers who lead the sheep astray.

Blogger weka February 21, 2018 5:15 AM  

@146. Fairly good exegisis, mate. I'd add that Mary should be honoured for her courage, bearing Christ. She is the most blessed of women -- though modern Churchians would not like her life, losing her husband (probably -- Jesus told John to look after her on the cross), having her son correct her not infrequently, and watching him die.

I do wonder if the cultus of the lady and knightly romance affected some of the Medieval monks, who made her so virtuous and without flaws that she was barely human.

A fair amount of Catholic doctrine here is speculation. But, as I've said before, this should not be Papists versus Prods. It is learning from the fall of a broken branch.

In short, and this is where Mega Mac started, Do not allow convergence. Do not be ruled by feels. Do not be relevant.

The gospel should always be offensive to those who have given their souls to the spirit of this age, and thus have pride in their piety.

Blogger Koanic February 21, 2018 5:27 AM  

Thanks!

> She is the most blessed of women

Bible doesn't say that.

Blogger Aeoli February 21, 2018 6:32 AM  

Idiots fall for the divide and conquer ploy EVERY. DAMN. TIME.

Blogger James Dixon February 21, 2018 8:55 AM  

> A beginner's guide.

https://www.google.com/search?q=online+beginners+bible+study&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 returns:

http://www.biblestudy.org/beginner/main.html
http://www.simplebiblestudies.com/BBindex.htm
https://www.crosswalk.com/faith/bible-study/the-beginner-s-guide-to-reading-the-bible.html
https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Study-Guide-Beginners-Book-ebook/dp/B00MUFP1QG

I can't speak for the quality of any of them though.

Blogger RobertDWood February 21, 2018 8:59 AM  

Very insightful. Clearly Psalms and Proverbs have no use for the Christian.

Blogger Blastman February 21, 2018 5:38 PM  

>The Mariolater's case rests on the word "Hail" spoken by the angel to Mary.

The greeting by the angel to Mary was more than just a Hail.

Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. … … also … … … 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Mary carried the Lord in her womb and has the title Mother of God (declared a dogma at the Council of Ephesus in 431). The Hail Mary prayer finishes with … Holy Mary, Mother of God, … pray for us sinners, … now and at the hour of our death.

Catholics ask for Her prayers and intercession before the throne of God.

Mary is venerated in the bible
in those very 2 passages.

Blogger Akulkis February 21, 2018 6:47 PM  

@ Micheal O'Doubhair

"It's just an historical fact: the Church founded by our blessed Lord Jesus Christ was, and still is, the Roman Catholic "

You do realize, don't you, that the Bishop of Rome was the first Protestant... as he plit Rome off from the rest of Christianity (the center of the church was Constantinople).

As for the Roman church being the universal Christian church ... I'll believe that when you goofballs stop praying to idols and dead people.''

The Roman Catholic Church is literally nothing more than Roman Paganism with a very, VERY thin vaneer (i.e. appearance, not substance) of Christianity.

It's like taking a pile of dog feces, molding it into a cylinder, and then putting some pretty frosting on it. IT'S STILL SHIT IN THE MIDDLE.

"Call no man your father". What is the most common term that Catholics use for their local clergyman? Father, Padre.

If the Catholic Church were actually Christian, that never would have been allowed to become a practice, let alone continue for centuries without being stomped out.

And trying to claim that Peter was the "first pope" is utterly laughable. It takes a special sort of stupid to believe the argument which is trotted out to justify that B.S..

Blogger Akulkis February 21, 2018 6:58 PM  

@71

" If you read from sources that actually understood the doctrines of the Church "

The doctrines of the church, which are..not in the Bible, but instead, come from the traditions of men.

Sounds suspiciously like Talmudism.

Blogger Akulkis February 21, 2018 7:07 PM  

153.

Many people in the Bible are described as Blessed. Do you say prayers to them, too, instead of, as instructed, praying to God?

Blogger Dirk Manly February 21, 2018 8:09 PM  

@153

So, you're asking a dead woman to pray for you?

Did Jesus ever once say to tell his mother to pray for you?
Did Jesus ever once say to pray to ANYONE other than God himself?


This is EXACTLY the sort of idolotry which you Catholics deny that you're neck deep in.

The Roman church is nothing more (and nothing less) than the old Roman Paganism, with a thin layer of Christian frosting slathered on top, to disguise what's inside.

And as far as your denigration of Protestants, for breaking off from you....

Who was it who broke off from THE CHURCH, which was centered, at that time, in Constantinople.

If you want to claim to be part of the original verion of the faith, you'd better convert to the Eastern Orthodox church immediately.

And not a single Bishop of Constantinople ever ran around demanding that people violate Matthew 23:9 and call him "Father" or any related form ("padre", "papa", or "pope").

Blogger Dirk Manly February 21, 2018 8:23 PM  

"And yes, all the rest is actually true. If you read from sources that actually understood the doctrines of the Church "


Ah yes, the "doctrines of the Church" which strangely enough, directly contradict the written word in the Bible, or add on "extras" which are supposedly Soooooooo important, that even Jesus himself forgot to mention them. In other words, the TRADITIONS of the Romans...i.e. the Traditions of Men.

Hmmm, Seems like we were warned about this sort of nonsense by the apostles themselves:
http://biblehub.com/colossians/2-8.htm



Specifically, they were talking about the Talmud. But there is NO difference between the traditions of Catholics (from the pagan Roman religions), and the traditions of the Judaizers (from the pagan Babalonian relgions).

I look at things like this: https://www.catholic.com/tract/call-no-man-father,
and it's nothing more than a Roman version of Jewish pilpul --- gigantic pile of word-salad used to justify something which is SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED BY GOD, by playin word games, and redefining words to some secret-special meaning... which of course, means that the entire concept of commonly accepted definitions of words is without merit. Which at best, is idiotic. More likely, they sorts of rationalizations are straight up demonic.

Blogger Dirk Manly February 21, 2018 8:56 PM  

@102

"If one were to do a review on religion for the past 2,000 years could anyone name me one righteous city its raised up in the world? Just one? Is there a righteous city today that the persecuted can flee to?"

Constantinople. Until it was overrun by the demonic Muslims.

Snowden fled to Moskva. And right now, it appears that the Russian Orthodox Church is the strongest Christian Church on the planet. After all, they did, in fact, reinstate the illegality of homosexual recruiting technique (sodomizing underage boys), advocacy of homosexuality, and they threw the Pussy Riot whores into Russian PMITA prison.

Do you have any other questions?

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