ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2018 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Friday, March 02, 2018

The younger religion

There has been a similar debate at Steve Sailer's over the propagandistic term "Judeo-Christian". There were four things in particular that I noted from the comments:

1) The great American intellectual Harold Bloom reached a similar conclusion about the myth of the "Judeo-Christian tradition".

There is no such thing as a Judeo-Christian tradition. That is absolutely ridiculous. And fascinatingly enough there are two things that I’ve said throughout my life when I’ve addressed Jewish audiences, say at the Jewish Theological Seminary or such places, and they always get furious at me. But they’re both true. One is that nowhere in the whole of the Tanakh does it say that a whole people can make themselves holy through study of texts. That’s a purely Platonic idea, and comes out of Plato’s Laws. That simply shows how thoroughly Platonized the rabbis of the second century were. The other one, which I say in this book and it has already given some offense, is that in fact not only is Judaism, which is a product of the second century of the common era—and it’s worked out by people like you know Akiba and his friends and opponents like Ishmael and Tarphon and the others, is a younger religion than Christianity is. Christianity in some form exists in the first century of the common era. What we now call Judaism comes along in the second century of the common era. Christianity is actually the older religion, though it infuriates Jews when you say that to them.

2) Christianity has considerably more in common with Islam than with Judaism. The Muslims regard Jesus Christ as a divinely inspired prophet. The Jews regard him as at best a fraud, and at worst, an evil sorcerer who is in Hell boiling in excrement. The Jews are also awaiting the Antichrist and will worship him. The Muslims are not.

Unlike Islam, Judaism does not accept Jesus as a prophet or as having performed any miracles. The rabbi’s best guess was that Jesus was the illegitimate offspring of a Roman soldier and that Mary made up the “virgin” thing as an excuse. Nowadays they would go on Maury Povich and get a paternity test. They most certainly do not believe that Jesus came back to life after his crucifixion and then flew up to heaven. 

3) Oliver Cromwell never allowed the Jews to legally return to England. The celebration of the "informal resettlement" is pure historical revisionism meant to hide the fact that they were illegal infiltrators there for hundreds of years, until 1858. And it was the same sort of evangelical ecumenites as today's churchian cuckservatives who were responsible for the legal emancipation of the Catholics and the Jews. Less than a century later, England found itself enmeshed in global wars, lost its empire, then its sovereignty, and was invaded by third world savages. Sound familiar?

4) This exchange was both informative and hilarious. The amusing thing is the way in which that David Goldberg's semi-autistic fan actually thinks he's being conciliatory rather than infuriating.

As a Jew, I have nothing against Jesus. At best, “Jesus” is a fairy tale creation, akin to Santa or the Easter Bunny. At worst, Jesus was a dangerous cult leader/sorcerer/terrorist, but who cares cause he’s dead. The real issue is political reality. And the fact is, Israel needs evangelical support.
- SpenglerFan

Really? Why is that? Why not use your awe-inspiring 115 IQs to take care of yourselves for once? I’d also like to let you know how much I enjoyed hearing the rationalist, “fairy tale” explanation of Jesus, juxtaposed with the suggestion that he might really have been an evil sorcerer. You don’t get that combination very often.
- Anon

Labels: , ,

143 Comments:

Blogger Sillon Bono March 02, 2018 5:23 AM  

Of course there is a Judeo-Christ, you can observe him as the token Jew in every single American Sitcom, from The wonder years to The Simpsons to Community, etc.

You get their gospel every day in your living room.

Just in case as my first language is not English it was a bad sarcasm.

Blogger Harambe March 02, 2018 5:38 AM  

You know, people don't just one day wake up and decide they don't like someone anymore

Blogger camperbot March 02, 2018 5:45 AM  

@Sillon Don't worry - it was very good sarcasm.

I spy with my little eye a shift in the Overton Window that doesn't help Jews.

Blogger Roger Hill March 02, 2018 5:49 AM  

When it comes to Jesus Christ, there is a closer acknowledgement between Islam and Christianity. In some other theological matters, such as Ishmael vs Isaac, there is a closer understanding between Christianity and Judaism(even present day forms). But both are tenuous at best.

The messianic promise of salvation through Abraham's descendants, fulfilled in Jesus Christ, means all who are in Christ are Abraham's offspring by faith.

As I once heard my brother explain to a horrified Jewish neighbor, if Abraham is the father of the faithful, then those in Christ are closer in relation to Abraham than any bloodline ties, whether through Ishmael or Isaac.

Blogger Lazarus March 02, 2018 5:53 AM  

Very brave of Bloom to tell the truth. Judaism is to the O.T. as Churchianity is to the N.T. Both error inspired counterfeits.

Plus, although Islam embraces Jesus as a Prophet, they (of course)deny the Cruxifixion.

Among its many differences with Christianity is that it denies the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. Whether Muslims believe in a substitution theory (another person was crucified in Jesus' place), ascension theory (Jesus was rescued from the cross and ascended to heaven), or swoon theory (Jesus did not actually die while on the cross and survived the rigors of the crucifixion), each one of them clearly denies the death of Jesus by crucifixion.

Blogger Kang March 02, 2018 5:53 AM  

I'm glad to see the comments on the actual 'ancient Greek' nature of Judaism. It is particularly humorous at Hanukkah, when Jews celebrate their victory over ancient Greece and Greek values. It is not an insult to point out their roots of their culture of books and arguments. Quite the contrary. A culture that values learning, where the scholar has a preeminent position (even addressing the diner table), one that involves great sacrifices for private school, is remarkable and commendable The Passover Seder itself is absolutely, and nothing less, than the Greek symposium. Down to the cups of wine. The Rabbis of the Gemara ask over and over "Why do we do this?", they literally don't know. And the tone is Greek. Still, if very is known or understood of the first temple mindset and people, 'Jews' are not atheists like the ancient Greeks.
The Roman mocked them for their lack of piety. If the Romans had a love/hate entanglement with the Greeks, it is only rivaled by the Christian/Jewish one.

Blogger yoghi.llama March 02, 2018 5:55 AM  

The Muslims regard Jesus Christ as a divinely inspired prophet.

This is less than half true. Muslims say that their version of Jesus was a prophet, but their version of Jesus taught Islam. And he will return to abolish the jizya (by converting all Christians to Islam), kill all the pigs, and smash all the crosses.

Your Jesus has more in common with the Gnostic Jesus than the Muslim Jesus.

Blogger Al From Bay Shore March 02, 2018 5:55 AM  

Two questions entered my mind after reading this:
1) "Who brought the lawsuit that resulted in SCOTUS ruling that it is unconstitutional for state officials to compose an official school prayer and encourage its recitation in public schools. Answer: Steven Engel

2) Why did Jake Tapper watch Farrakhan's Savior's Day Speech and compose Twitter thread of 11 Tweets just a few days ago? I know the photo of Obama with Farrakhan is news but that was a few weeks ago. Just wondering.

Blogger VD March 02, 2018 5:58 AM  

When it comes to Jesus Christ, there is a closer acknowledgement between Islam and Christianity.

Jesus Christ is the core of Christianity. And not only that, but Islam also regards the Pentateuch and the rest of the Old Testament as divinely inspired. If you don't recognize the Islamo-Christian tradition, there is no possible way you can give any credence at all to "Judeo-Christianity" much less the Gospel of Judeo Christ.

Anonymous Anonymous March 02, 2018 6:02 AM  

Judeo "Christians" also dislike supercession theology, i.e. Christianity is the true covenant Israel.

Meanwhile the Jews occupying Palestine are obstinate throwbacks to an obsolete religion, but have no special place in the plan of salvation, aside from needing to be baptized in the name of the Trinity in order to be saved, like everyone else.

Blogger Steve March 02, 2018 6:05 AM  

the second century of the common era

Tfw you hate Christ so much you invent a historically nonsensical "common era" to take His name off the calendar.

Blogger Roger Hill March 02, 2018 6:06 AM  

"If you don't recognize the Islamo-Christian tradition, there is no possible way you can give any credence at all to "Judeo-Christianity" much less the Gospel of Judeo Christ."
Exactly right.
"And not only that, but Islam also regards the Pentateuch and the rest of the Old Testament as divinely inspired."
It's a bit hard to understand this when a plain reading of the Old Testament contradicts Islam's interpretation of history. They claim it is divinely inspired, then claim it was corrupted. But then again, they say the same about the New Testament - inspired and then corrupted.

Blogger Tatooine Sharpshooters' Club March 02, 2018 6:09 AM  

OT: Vox, I voted for Salvini, since you can't. You're welcome.

Blogger Shimshon March 02, 2018 6:20 AM  

"Of course there is a Judeo-Christ, you can observe him as the token Jew in every single American Sitcom, from The wonder years to The Simpsons to Community, etc."

The funny thing is, if Beverly Hills 90210 were an accurate reflection of the reality of the early 1990s, about 80% of the characters would be Jewish, but even there it's the token Jew(s) in a sea of gentiles.

Blogger VD March 02, 2018 6:24 AM  

OT: Vox, I voted for Salvini, since you can't. You're welcome.

Grazie....

Blogger VD March 02, 2018 6:25 AM  

The funny thing is, if Beverly Hills 90210 were an accurate reflection of the reality of the early 1990s, about 80% of the characters would be Jewish, but even there it's the token Jew(s) in a sea of gentiles.

And the inevitable remake is going to be half-Chinese....

Blogger Salt March 02, 2018 6:33 AM  

Judeo-Christ? How'd that 'e' get in there?

Blogger JACIII March 02, 2018 6:43 AM  

VD wrote:The funny thing is, if Beverly Hills 90210 were an accurate reflection of the reality of the early 1990s, about 80% of the characters would be Jewish, but even there it's the token Jew(s) in a sea of gentiles.

And the inevitable remake is going to be half-Chinese....


Hell, they can't even make a commercial without a whiny spaghetti armed Jew in it.

Blogger Stilicho March 02, 2018 6:47 AM  

Interesting. I've long thought that the second temple Judaism we see in the NT was very hellenized (over a foundation of Babylonian Judaism). Add in the diaspora following the destruction of the second temple and it's no great surprise to see Judaism turn to platonism to replace the foundation the Temple once provided.

Even more interesting is Bloom's idea that this platonic Judaism is so different as to constitute a new religion rather than an additive change to the religion of the Hebrews.

Blogger Stilicho March 02, 2018 6:51 AM  

"And the inevitable remake is going to be half-Chinese"

Where do ya think the Elders of Wye got the bright idea to join up with the Han?

Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira March 02, 2018 6:57 AM  

Judaism and Islam are two of the least appealing religions on the planet. Dick cutting, crooked noses and suicide vests? No ty.

Blogger McChuck March 02, 2018 7:02 AM  

On point 2. The Muslims are indeed awaiting the rise of the 13th Imam. He is described in the Quran. His description exactly matches the Bible's description of the Antichrist. The Imam is to lead the Islamic faithful in the war against the infidels, who will be led by Jesus.

Islam is on the other side of the Final War from Christianity. And they expect to win. This is why the Iranian Mullahs are working so hard to build nuclear bombs.

Blogger yoghi.llama March 02, 2018 7:06 AM  

Islam also regards the Pentateuch and the rest of the Old Testament as divinely inspired.

Yes, they definitely do. And no, they absolutely don't. They believe that Christian and Jewish texts are divinely inspired, but they also simultaneously believe that they have been "corrupted" by mankind.

I go with Bill Warner's model that Islam is dualistic. They can faithfully believe that opposing theses are true, but then express whichever one is most convenient in any given situation.

Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira March 02, 2018 7:10 AM  

"The Jews are also awaiting the Antichrist and will worship him."

Can someone elaborate on this please? Not sure I'm tracking this. Will they worship the antichrist because they are not in communion with Christ, or is there something more important that I'm missing.

Blogger VD March 02, 2018 7:17 AM  

On point 2. The Muslims are indeed awaiting the rise of the 13th Imam.

Come on. That's like substituting "Mormon" for "Christian". Only Twelver Shia Muslims are doing that.

Ithnā'ashariyyah Muslims are between 8.5 and 11 percent of the global Muslim population.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 02, 2018 7:20 AM  

"Will they worship the antichrist because they are not in communion with Christ"

They're still waiting for a messiah.

Having rejected Jesus, what else could they possibly be waiting for?

Blogger VD March 02, 2018 7:21 AM  

Even more interesting is Bloom's idea that this platonic Judaism is so different as to constitute a new religion rather than an additive change to the religion of the Hebrews.

It's not just Bloom's idea. There is archeological and historical evidence to suggest that Judaism is a Babylonian religion wearing a Mosaic skinsuit, not an additive transformation to the Hebrew religion of the Old Testament.

Which would explain the Neo-Babelist globalism, if nothing else. As well as the "Synagogue of Satan" references.

Blogger Phillip George March 02, 2018 7:23 AM  

Islam worship a different god. That is like gravity. The inconvenient fact.

If Judaism were not defined by the Talmud you can argue is is perfectly congruent with Christianity..

Unfortunately Judaism = Talmud.

Hence, Bishop takes Zionist Queen. Checkmate.

Blogger Paul Sacramento March 02, 2018 7:32 AM  

They more I research this the more I see the truth that, in fact, there is no Judeo-Christian anything. BUT, and this goes back to a post I had in another thread, for most the term simply implies ( even if incorrect) the common moral and doctrine aspects of the OT and NT.
When most people think judeo-christian they think 10 commandments, they think Moses, they think Abraham, they think that Jesus was Jewish and so were the apostles, etc. etc.
They think the commonalities and they don't think or know, the true fact that is very well explained in this thread. I think it is due to a desire to see the similarities and a certain MISPLACED guilt about what happened to Jews in the past. Many truly want to see the Jews as our "mistaken and misinformed cousins".

Anonymous Anonymous March 02, 2018 7:35 AM  

@Daniel Paul Grech Pereira:

Some prominent Shia Islamic Scholars teach that near the end of time the 'False Messiah' will appear and deceive the Jews into worshiping him. This is very similar to Christian teaching concerning the 'Anti-Christ'.

These Shia Islamic Scholars go on to teach that then the 'True Messiah', the 'Prophet' Jesus will return and defeat the 'False Messiah'.

This is similar to Christian belief, however Islam denies the deity of Christ.

--ZhukovG

Blogger Skyler the Weird March 02, 2018 7:35 AM  

St. John of Damascus and other medieval writers considered Muslims to be Heretics.

Blogger Looking Glass March 02, 2018 7:43 AM  

@27 VD

It also gives a framework for why they stopped sacrifices. While the temple & the ark had become central to religious practice of the Priests, it was only yearly obligations for the Hebrews. The reality that the ark disappears and never conclusively shows up anywhere else, especially not moving to a Hebrew settlement in then Parthia, doesn't make the greatest amount of sense if one believes it's straight Hebrew Temple religion -> Talmudic Judaism.


@28 Paul Sacramento

That's more than likely where "Judeo-Christian" got popular. I remember someone trying to track it closer, but I don't think anyone has quite nailed it down. Given the state of "new church movements" of the day, I'd put it down to between 1953 & 1955. It likely gained prominence in that time frame when the Virtue Signaling really kicked into high-gear. Any of the smaller Christian denominations would have looked for victim status, similar to what they think happened to the Jews during WW2. The American Church was in a big feminization kick during that period, so it's something you can see a false preacher latching onto. It moved into print & discussion, then a technical term is used in an insidious manner.

Blogger Desdichado March 02, 2018 7:45 AM  

They think the commonalities and they don't think or know, the true fact that is very well explained in this thread. I think it is due to a desire to see the similarities and a certain MISPLACED guilt about what happened to Jews in the past. Many truly want to see the Jews as our "mistaken and misinformed cousins".

Considering that the Americans are the ones who bailed the Jews' collective butts out of the Holocaust, it's always been somewhat ironic that the Jews can use it as a tool to guilt trip us. And pathetic that we always seem to fall for it.

The Jews are like the bitchy girl who still has a thing for bad-boy Russia, and Americans, especially evangelical Christians, are like the pathetic betas who are friend-zoned hard but who somehow think that she'll come around and see how great he is.

She'll take the beta bux, I suppose.

There's a theory I see floated around sometimes that as the Lost Tribes supposedly went northwards, and the prophecies that Jacob gave to his posterity suggests that Ephraim will be a fruitful bough that grows over the wall, proposes that Europe can be combined with Ephraim in terms of the promises made to that tribe. It's a bit controversial and has a lot to be desired as an actual scientific theory, obviously, but if so, it goes a long way towards explaining Isaiah 11:13.

Blogger Zaklog the Great March 02, 2018 7:53 AM  

The real issue is political reality. And the fact is, Israel needs evangelical support.

I've nothing against Israel. In fact, I think, as compared to the Palestinians, Israel is much, much more moral. But I have never heard a statement inclining me less to support Israel. Geez, this guy is an entitled asshole.

Blogger Jeff aka Orville March 02, 2018 7:56 AM  

Judaism is a Babylonian religion wearing a Mosaic skinsuit. Exactly, Babylonian mystery religions and their various analogs in other lands such as Egypt, Greece, Rome and the modern Illuminist are all Luciferian at their core.

Blogger Peter Gent March 02, 2018 7:58 AM  

The real war is finally out in the open and no longer hidden behind subterfuge. So, choose whose side you are on. To paraphrase Joshua, me and my family choose Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Anonymous Anonymous March 02, 2018 7:59 AM  

Everyone who is not a die hard Christian will worship the anti-christ, Jews, Moslems, Pagans, atheists, you name it.
He will do his best to murder any who do not.

Just imagine, the SJWs will finally get the kind of asshole leader they can whole heartedly adore.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer March 02, 2018 8:00 AM  

The other day a guy in my men's Bible study group wondered out-loud how the Jews couldn't see that Jesus was the Messiah since he fulfilled so many prophecies. I told him that religious Jews think Jesus was a fraud who knew the prophecies and set about fulfilling them deliberately. That simply isn't know to most Christians and the Jewish community wasn't in a hurry to advertise it in the past.

Blogger Uncle John's Band March 02, 2018 8:00 AM  

It is interesting that historically Philo of Alexandria is kept at a distance from the development of post-Temple Judaism, supposedly because of his overt Neoplatonism. He was probably just too transparent.

If the Neo-Babylonian theory is correct, covering up the inconvenient roots would have gone on from the beginning.

Blogger Uncle John's Band March 02, 2018 8:02 AM  

"Just imagine, the SJWs will finally get the kind of asshole leader they can whole heartedly adore."

You mean more saintly than Obama?

Blogger tz March 02, 2018 8:08 AM  

In Jesus' time there were several denominations of Jews, John the Baptist, and Essene, rightly called the Pharisees out as evil. They were the ones constantly trying to trap Jesus, and being midwits and evil, Jesus reversed every one of their traps on them. (e.g. Woman caught in adultery - Rome banned stoning, Moses required it so Jesus, which law are you going to break? Jesus: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone - If the Phariees did, Jesus would note he always called them of the devil, but if they didn't they were admitting sin). There were also the Saducees and Herodians.

Guess which one became the 2nd century then modern Talmudic Jews?

Note that their culture preserved itself from the 2nd century among hostile host countries, and their rules led them to prosperity, not unlike the nonconformist Englishmen did (so the King gave them the land in America). It is a form of cultural Darwinism and the fittest survive.

And they are fairly good at the symbiant/parasite game, until they get too greedy, prideful, and out of fear or avarice want and get too much power.

I also wonder about the bans on them owning land came when they would take the land as pledge for their usury and would effectively create the mortgage housing crisis of 2006-9 centuries ago. Right now they seem to prefer student loan debt slaves.

Blogger Peaceful Poster March 02, 2018 8:09 AM  

Muslims and Christians know how to keep their women in line.

Jews not so much.

Blogger Nate March 02, 2018 8:18 AM  

if you spend some time reading what the jews say about Akiba Ben Joseph you can plainly see that they themselves teach that he created judaism. And when you look at their practices and compare them to the practices of the hebrews of the old testament is obvious that these are not the same religions.


Blogger NeoNietzsche: March 02, 2018 8:18 AM  

@28 "and a certain MISPLACED guilt about what happened to Jews in the past."

and a certain (((INCULCATED))) guilt about what happened to Jews in the past.

FIFY

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer March 02, 2018 8:20 AM  

Also, it seems the good "Rabbi" is trying to link the enforcement to the immigration laws to Haman, in the story of Esther, deporting the Jews. I did a double take and checked my Jewish Study Bible to be sure, and Esther 3:13 doesn't say anything about deportation. It says, "destroy, massacre, and exterminate all the Jews." She wouldn't have been able to get away with such blatant lying in an earlier age, when people read the Bible.

Blogger Looking Glass March 02, 2018 8:21 AM  

@32 Desdichado

My understanding that the Guilt Trip stuff didn't start until the 1970s? The 1950s through 1970s were probably the Peak Propaganda Era, so you'd be amazed how much damage can be done. It's also important to remember that the early 1900s are going to, in historic sense, be viewed as one of the absolute low-points of Western Christianity. We don't yet appreciate how bad things got.

On the "inherited blessings" stuff, you ever think about how people will argue that they get a blessing but it's for existing? Everyone wants free stuff for existing.

On the lost tribes, which aren't really as lost as people want to think, I was talking to a Japanese Christian one time about the topic. He was a firm believer that one segment ended up in Japan. It's one of those odd Christian discussion points (think Irish, Red-hair and that stuff), however it's not so easy to dismiss. Mostly because Shinto isn't native to Japan. It seems to show up somewhere before the 300 AD and the ancient practice borrows a lot from a Jacob-based religion.

Mostly, there's an argument Shinto showed up in Japan along the Silk Road after the fall of the Parthian Empire, right around the time the Yayoi People did as well. That's its own historical nut to crack, but I've found the topic fascinating ever since. You can normally dismiss these types of things, but it's the first one that there is actually more than plausible evidence that there is a relation.

Blogger Bodo Staron March 02, 2018 8:22 AM  

Islam is closer to Judaism than to Christianity.

There are quite a large number of (Sunni) Muslims that absolutely hate Christianity and call Christians "Polytheists" because of the concept of trinity. And therefore want to kill them.

Also in practice: Kosher butchering. Can't eat pigs. Genital mutilation (the Muslims added the genital mutilation of females).

If you read "The myth of the Andalusian paradise", there are many examples on how the three groups lived under Islamic rule.

Blogger Felix March 02, 2018 8:23 AM  

Did Jesus have his dick cut ?
How do you think Jesus looked ,being a Jew and all.

Man the larping and mental gymnastics here is off the charts.

Blogger Felix March 02, 2018 8:26 AM  

Hmmmmm ok ill give you the muslim part ,but they achieved it by beating their woman into submission and covering them in garbage bags. Christian women are not kept in line at all.

Blogger Bobiojimbo March 02, 2018 8:29 AM  

They're already working on it:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jK_rEi1_dxs

Blogger Mocheirge March 02, 2018 8:36 AM  

Whoa, WAIT. All these years, churchians have told me that Cromwell was a wise and holy man because he welcomed Jews to England. The 1488ers hated him for it, and they seemed to have a better understanding of cause and effect.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer March 02, 2018 8:38 AM  

It's also important to remember that the early 1900s are going to, in historic sense, be viewed as one of the absolute low-points of Western Christianity. We don't yet appreciate how bad things got.

My understanding is that fundamentalism arose because Christian leaders in the seminaries and mainstream denominations had all pretty much became secularists who thought Jesus was a pretty myth, useful for keeping the rubes in line, but nothing an intelligent, educated person should put any stock in. I realize that's pretty much the situation today, but at least now there are alternatives.

"Fundamentalism, in the context of Christianity, has been defined by George Marsden as the demand for a strict adherence to certain theological doctrines, in reaction against Modernist theology.[9] The term was originally coined by its supporters to describe what they claimed were five specific classic theological beliefs of Christianity, and that developed into a Christian fundamentalist movement within the Protestant community of the United States in the early part of the 20th century.[10] Fundamentalism as a movement arose in the United States, starting among conservative Presbyterian theologians at Princeton Theological Seminary in the late 19th century. It soon spread to conservatives among the Baptists and other denominations around 1910 to 1920. The movement's purpose was to reaffirm key theological tenets and defend them against the challenges of liberal theology and higher criticism.[11]"

https://infogalactic.com/info/Fundamentalism

Blogger dvdivx March 02, 2018 8:40 AM  

Islam does not recognise the bible as holy scripture. Only the Quran and Hadiths are holy. Really it is a very sick religion the more you know it. It took years out of my life before I woke up to how sick. Jesus doesn't return in Islam. The mahdi is not Christ. Maybe the Antichrist of the bible but certainly not Christ.

Blogger Nate March 02, 2018 8:42 AM  

Islam is Satanism. Literally.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer March 02, 2018 8:47 AM  

Actually, we have progressed to the point where being a Christian is a liability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_jzDGv0KKw&t=9s

Blogger Looking Glass March 02, 2018 8:53 AM  

@49 Ron Winkleheimer

The major seminaries were all converged between 1860 and 1890. That's why the rot is so deep. One can look back at the updates to the KJV to see how bad things had already gotten.

Blogger James Dixon March 02, 2018 8:56 AM  

> Judaism does not accept Jesus as a prophet or as having performed any miracles.

In spite of their own eyewitnesses who saw them.

> They most certainly do not believe that Jesus came back to life after his crucifixion...

Again, in spite of the eyewitnesses who saw him. All the had to do to nip Christianity in the bud was produce the dead body for everyone to see. Why didn't they do so?

> Will they worship the antichrist because they are not in communion with Christ, or is there something more important that I'm missing.

As others note, they will accept him as being the Messiah they've been waiting for.

Anonymous Anonymous March 02, 2018 8:57 AM  

Sadly, there is an awful lot of misinformation about the founding of Islam, even among Muslims.
Mohammad, (his given name was Kabul, Mohammad is a title, means 'great one', same as Mahatma), was an orphan and raised by his uncle, who was a merchant. He married an older woman , and shortly after he started hearing voices. Kabul thought he was losing his mind. After about a year the many voices became one voice and told him the it was the Angel Gabriel. This was a demon deceiving him, and gullible putz that he was, he bought it hook line and sinker. The voice dictated what would eventually become parts of the Koran. Though it is not well known that he died in misery, poisoned by a Jewish woman who frankly hated him.
The Koran itself was compiled by the Caliph of Baghdad 180 years after Kabul's death. He kept what he liked and burned the rest.

Blogger VD March 02, 2018 9:00 AM  

Whoa, WAIT. All these years, churchians have told me that Cromwell was a wise and holy man because he welcomed Jews to England.

It's lies all the way down. There is no truth in them. Jesus warned us who their Father was.

Blogger McChuck March 02, 2018 9:10 AM  

@25 - 1.8 billion Muslims. Assume 10% of them are Shia, of which 85% are Twelvers. That's 153 million people awaiting the rise of the Antichrist (from our perspective, of course).

But more to the point - the leaders of Iran are these people. Their stated goal is to bring about the Final War so that the Mahdi will return. To this end they are developing nuclear weapons.

We must take our enemies seriously and believe them when they tell us that their deepest desire is to kill us all so they can rule the world.

Blogger Duke Norfolk March 02, 2018 9:20 AM  

Nate wrote:Islam is Satanism. Literally.

Yeah, I'm no religious scholar - at all. But as to this I think this is appropriate, if not actually Biblically correct in its application:

By their fruits you shall know them.

It doesn't take a religious scholar to understand the evil that flows from Islam. Just someone willing to be the least bit honest.

Blogger Cetera March 02, 2018 9:33 AM  

I'm more than a little befuddled by the absolute assininery in this thread. Arguing against Judeo-Christianity is logic and sense. The entire rest of the conversation isn't.

The Jews are very much intellectually honest when it comes to Jesus. If you don't believe he is the literal Son of God, there is absolutely no room for him to be anything less than a horrible, evil, insane demon-man imposter. No one can be a holy man or a prophet while lying and saying they are God or the Son of God. The two are mutually exclusive. Jesus was not a holy man. He wasn't a prophet. He was either the Son of God, or he deserved his crucifixion and worse.

The Islamic position on Jesus is literally insane, and chock full of lies, as is the entire Muslim religion. Islam and Christianity have about as much in common as OJ Simspon and St. Francis of Assisi do. After all, they both lived large portions of their lives isolated away from the public, dwelling in small rooms, and had few material possessions.

There is some commonality between Jews and Christians, specifically in the worship of the same God, the Father. I suspect that old school, pre-V2 Catholicism shared a lot more in common with Judaism as practiced in the first century than anything else, but haven't done enough research to prive that out.

Islam doesn't worship the same God as either Christians or Jews, having no commonality of character, purpose, or temperment. Islam is fundamentally about the eradication of free will. Christianity is about the exercise of free will in union with God.

The biggest hurdle between Jews and Christians, aside from Jesus, is that Jews still believe humanity can be largely perfected here on Earth, and a utopian vision of human harmony achieved with enough religious study. Christians know this is a fallen word, and no one will ever be perfected here. Utopia will come only in the afterlife, with the wheat separated from the chaff, and only through the salvation provided through the Crucifixion. That is a huge separation in views, but it is still closer than anything Christianity shares with Islam.

Blogger Gary March 02, 2018 9:35 AM  

Anyone had any success in bringing a Muslim across to Christianity?

I am working hard with a friend of mine in Morocco. He's read 'More Than A Carpenter' in Arabic, and told me he could see that Jesus was 'more than a prophet', and he was really happy to find the truth.

A couple of months later, he's barely started reading the New Testament (but promises he will) and is back believing everything in the Koran, and being extra vigilant in praying 5 times a day. Sad.

As for Christians against the world, we need to start in the Old Testament to see why we're in the state we're in today:

http://earnestlycontendingforthefaith.com/King%20James%20Bible%20Audio/Leviticus%2026.mp3

Do you observe a Saturday Sabbath? Churchians kicked the Sabbath into touch, replacing it with a fictional 'Lord's Day', with no biblical justification. Add in all of the other laws and statutes we ignore, and the evil new laws our nations now impose, and it's no surprise (and welcome in fact) that Jehovah now displays His wrath, and punishes our nations.

We will be ruled by strangers in our lands (I would argue the Royal Family in the UK are foreign), and we will be persecuted.

Best approach (according to Scripture): do not fight it, do not try to fight God's will and wrath. Rather, start your own churches, with women silent and their heads covered, and make sure your little church observes all of God's laws and statutes (whilst allowing for the fact that we don't have civil authority, as in the time of Jesus). Pray that Jehovah then blesses your nation as He sees your righteousness.

Crunch time is upon us brothers, the next 10-100 years, and we need to have a remnant that can rebuild in the manner of Alfred The Great.

Blogger CM March 02, 2018 9:36 AM  

Judaism is a Babylonian religion wearing a Mosaic skinsuit. Exactly, Babylonian mystery religions and their various analogs in other lands such as Egypt, Greece, Rome and the modern Illuminist are all Luciferian at their core.

My (limited) understanding of this from comments here and various reading elsewhere was that the destruction of the temple during Babylonian exile gave rise to the pharisaical teachings in Judaism. I think they minimized the importance and centrality of the temple.

It's hard to suss out which was the better of the two factions as both Saducees and pharisees had their problems and the origins of an afterlife in Judaism comes from pharisees, but all in all, the minimization of the temple allowed them to rise post 70 AD and probably facilitated the rejection of messiah as temple (Jesus referred to himself as the Temple).

Blogger S1AL March 02, 2018 9:41 AM  

"My (limited) understanding of this from comments here and various reading elsewhere was that the destruction of the temple during Babylonian exile gave rise to the pharisaical teachings in Judaism. I think they minimized the importance and centrality of the temple."

The Pharisees were hardcore Mosaic Orthodox in comparison to the modern brand. Talmudic Judaism didn't really catch on until after the AD 70 destruction.

Blogger Nathan Bruno March 02, 2018 9:55 AM  

@60

As to Muslims: It's always good to work to demonstrate that the Christian position is not insane, because the Muslims will believe sight unseen it is insane. They have accepted as fact that Christians are insane and wicked but looking to fight over fine points of doctrine. James White of Alpha-Omega does a great job demolishing several of the usual arguments, but the easiest way to explain Christianity to a Muslim is not in tearing down Islam; that they are ready for; it is showing the cohesive facts.

I suggest it may be easier to show, even in the parts that they may say are corrupted, that the whole Messiah arc of the Old Testament had to be fulfilled by a certain point before 70 AD, or it speaks to the whole character of God. Varner's "The Messiah" is a great general book for that, but it is not particularly Muslim-focused.


As to Saturday vs. Sunday, there are arguments for Sunday from the text:

Revelation 1:10 - John was in the Spirit on the Lord's day.
John 20:19 - The disciples gathered on Sunday, and they saw Jesus.
John 20:26 - The disciples gathered on Sunday, and they saw Jesus.
Acts 20:7 - A gathering of Christians on the first day of the week.

Also, Acts 2:1, Pentecost, the "birthday of the church", is reckoned as a Sunday based on the calculation of the Feast of First Fruits to be the morrow after the 7th Sabbath Leviticus 23:15-22.

Thus, it is a similar lesson for the Muslims as your position on Saturday vs. Sunday:

You believe that people who worship on Sunday are literally insane, and that we have no reason for doing this thing. Peter gathered everyone on Sundays twice and saw the Lord. Paul gathered and preached on Sunday. John appears to have been actively engaged with the Spirit on Sunday. The first day of the church calendar is a Sunday. Thus, since we take our direction from the apostles, we gather on Sundays.

You might disagree, but we don't gather on Sundays just because we are insane.

Blogger VD March 02, 2018 9:55 AM  

I'm more than a little befuddled by the absolute assininery in this thread. Arguing against Judeo-Christianity is logic and sense. The entire rest of the conversation isn't.

That's because you don't know what you're talking about.

There is some commonality between Jews and Christians, specifically in the worship of the same God, the Father.

No, there isn't. You don't understand the entire basis for the conversation, which is that the post-Babylonian Talmudic religion is NOT the sacrifice-to-Jehovah-at-the-temple Hebrew religion, just as the pagan Churchianity of the modern Episcopalian priestesses is not the Christian religion.

Both just pretend to be what they are not.

Here is something to consider. Where did the Israelites sacrifice to Jehovah BEFORE the temple was built? And why would the destruction of the temple mean that they could no longer sacrifice to Jehovah?

Occam's Razor suggests a very simple explanation for why they do not sacrifice to Jehovah: they worship a different god. And is that really so far-fetched, considering their previous history of turning to different gods in much shorter periods of time?

Blogger VFM #7634 March 02, 2018 10:02 AM  

"Anyone had any success in bringing a Muslim across to Christianity?"

They're unlikely to convert, but if they do, Christianity is their top choice.

Converts from Islam tend to be Iranian or Afghan for some reason, I've noticed.

Blogger VFM #7634 March 02, 2018 10:05 AM  

"but the easiest way to explain Christianity to a Muslim is not in tearing down Islam; that they are ready for; it is showing the cohesive facts."

I'm not a salesman by any means, but it's not a good idea to try to sell something by disparaging your potential customer's family heirlooms, even if they're ridiculous.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer March 02, 2018 10:08 AM  

Do you observe a Saturday Sabbath? Churchians kicked the Sabbath into touch, replacing it with a fictional 'Lord's Day', with no biblical justification.

The Biblical justification is that Christians aren't subject to "The Law." At least, that's what Paul taught. Since we no longer are subject to the law, we don't have to observe a Sabbath at all. But, since it is good for Christians to gather together to worship God and encourage each other, and it is helpful if a certain day (or days) are set aside for that, then any day would suffice. And since Sunday is the day that Jesus arose from the dead, that makes it a good candidate. But if you want to observe the Sabbath on Saturday, that's good to.

"Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen."

2 Timothy 2:14

Blogger SemiSpook37 March 02, 2018 10:11 AM  

And yet, most modernists get all bent out of shape over the word “perfidious”. In almost two millenia of Christian tradition, it amazes me that calling a spade a spade continues to cause so much butthurt over the past 50 years for no logical reason.

Sort of goes hand in hand with the bastardization of ecumenicism, too. That’s really what this whole discussion is about.

Blogger Nate March 02, 2018 10:18 AM  

"Do you observe a Saturday Sabbath? Churchians kicked the Sabbath into touch, replacing it with a fictional 'Lord's Day', with no biblical justification."

You say this because you are ignorant of the Freedom of Jesus.

Anonymous Anonymous March 02, 2018 10:28 AM  

Here is something to consider. Where did the Israelites sacrifice to Jehovah BEFORE the temple was built? And why would the destruction of the temple mean that they could no longer sacrifice to Jehovah?

Exactly. If you aren't killing goats and rams you ain't a real hebrew.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 02, 2018 10:37 AM  

I recommend this book. I use it as a reference after many of owning it. It has two chapters on Islam.

A Reasoned Look at Asian Religions
https://www.amazon.com/Reasoned-Look-Asian-Religions/dp/0871237989

Islam is closer to Judaism than to Christianity - both establish a salvation by rule and a theocratic government.

Not all Muslims my be "Twelve Imamists" (my term) but it is a belief found in both Sunni and Shiah.

Islam teaches that both Old and New Testaments are corrupt. It is a sore point and difficult for Muslims to explain that the original prophets were Hebrews.

Both Judaism and Islam deny the divinity of Jesus and Jesus' death on the cross.

Blogger Gary March 02, 2018 10:45 AM  

'Thus, since we take our direction from the apostles, we gather on Sundays.'

I take my direction from Jehovah, and His ten commandments are eternal.

@Nate, Jesus (below) was quite clear on His views regarding the Law. He explained so many times. As did Paul: the law still applies. Why would anyone think an eternal God would send His own son to die for our sinning against His laws, and the ditch the Laws thereafter? That's a lie, fostered by the father of lies. And how humanity suffers by turning away from those laws now.

'3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.'

'If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.'

'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.'

Blogger jandolin March 02, 2018 10:49 AM  

Mcchuck, a member of the (((tribe))) busy deceiving the American people,

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 02, 2018 10:51 AM  

@64

"And why would the destruction of the temple mean that they could no longer sacrifice to Jehovah?"

Because the era of individuals sacrificing animals anywhere ended with the Tabernacle and the establishing of the Levitical order.
Because the era of sacrificing in the Tabernacle ended with the Temple and its consecration and God's presence within the Ark Of The Covenant was moved into the Most Holy Place (by God's command) within the Temple.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 02, 2018 10:54 AM  

@60
I will try to get in touch with relevant people. Missionaries to Muslims do not email with real names of countries or individuals.

Blogger Gary March 02, 2018 11:00 AM  

Thanks @75

Blogger VD March 02, 2018 11:04 AM  

Because the era of individuals sacrificing animals anywhere ended with the Tabernacle and the establishing of the Levitical order.
Because the era of sacrificing in the Tabernacle ended with the Temple and its consecration and God's presence within the Ark Of The Covenant was moved into the Most Holy Place (by God's command) within the Temple.


That is not an answer to a "why" question. Where and when did Jehovah tell them to stop sacrificing to Him?

Moreover, do you really believe that after being unable to go 40 years without chasing after foreign gods under far less duress, do you seriously believe the surviving Israelites have been faithful to Jehovah for nearly 2,000 years?

What evidence do you see of that? In Hollywood? Psychology? Do you see more evidence of Jehovah or of the God of this World?

Blogger Anthony March 02, 2018 11:11 AM  

Nice dialectical post on why "Judeo-Christian" is a false idea. But as rhetoric, "Judeo-Christian" is brilliant.

Blogger pyrrhus March 02, 2018 11:17 AM  

Nate wrote:
Islam is Satanism. Literally.

Read some of the accounts of the horrific acts of Jihadists, from serving military. One account of unspeakable horror ended with "Islam is Satan."
The Sufis seem to be different, and are regarded as heretics.
I have a friend who was born muslim, but is, secretly, a Christian at this point. He thinks jihadists are demons...

Blogger Cetera March 02, 2018 11:18 AM  

VD wrote:VD wrote:No, there isn't. You don't understand the entire basis for the conversation, which is that the post-Babylonian Talmudic religion is NOT the sacrifice-to-Jehovah-at-the-temple Hebrew religion, just as the pagan Churchianity of the modern Episcopalian priestesses is not the Christian religion.

Both just pretend to be what they are not.

Here is something to consider. Where did the Israelites sacrifice to Jehovah BEFORE the temple was built? And why would the destruction of the temple mean that they could no longer sacrifice to Jehovah?


So your contention is that the current group to claim the mantle of Judaism really aren't Jews anymore than the current group claiming to be Episcopalian aren't really Christian? The Episcopalians don't seem to worship any deity I'm familiar with, and I don't think they can be recognized as Christian. Historically, that was different, unless you think that the entire Church of England ceased being Christian when they broke away from Catholicism.

However, that doesn't invalidate the contention that Jews and Christians worship the same God. Perhaps it would more accurate to say "true Christians" and "true Jews?" Something similar might be said of the current pope, who doesn't profess to believe in Hell or eternal death, putting the eternal life proposition also in doubt, and questioning just what deity he worships.

It is acknowledged quite clearly there in the Bible that Judaism is godless, and that they will at some point be converted.

From Romans 11:
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,

He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

27And this is My covenant with them

when I take away their sins.”f

28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.



These things are not in doubt. Yet none of this gives any credence to the assertion that Christianity has more in common with Islam than Judaism. The sin of an individual, or a people, or even the corruption of an entire faith, does not equate to the absolute rejection of God and free will that is inherent in Islam.

Blogger Sheila4g March 02, 2018 11:29 AM  

@28 Paul Sacramento: "I think it is due to a desire to see the similarities and a certain MISPLACED guilt about what happened to Jews in the past. Many truly want to see the Jews as our "mistaken and misinformed cousins"."

Some comfortably live in the cognitive dissonance of mistaken-about-Jesus-but-our-senior-brothers-in-faith when it comes to Jews. They're almost worshipful about it. My sons attended a number of different Christian schools, and the more the older one recalls of where he spent first through fourth grade, the more he sees the churchian heresies and almost worshipful attitude toward Jews they taught there. He's still in occasional contact with his 2nd grade teacher (who, besides being an excellent teacher, also developed a genuine affection for him and was there during some difficult later times) and, although he retains a great deal of affection for her, he really doesn't know how to respond when she texts how excited she is to be going to visit the synagogue for Purim. If I recall, the school used to have the children celebrate a Passover Seder in honor of the Last Supper. These evangelicals really practice almost a fusion of churchianity and talmudic Judaism. The more you try to untangle it, the more insane it appears.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella March 02, 2018 11:31 AM  

God Bless you, Mr Vox Day.

Blogger VD March 02, 2018 11:33 AM  

So your contention is that the current group to claim the mantle of Judaism really aren't Jews anymore than the current group claiming to be Episcopalian aren't really Christian? The Episcopalians don't seem to worship any deity I'm familiar with, and I don't think they can be recognized as Christian.

But what are "Jews" then? I would simply say that Judaism appears to be something very different than most Christians believe it to be, and something very different than is described in the Old Testament. I don't question that those who follow the religion can call themselves whatever they want.

Yet none of this gives any credence to the assertion that Christianity has more in common with Islam than Judaism.

You're creating a strawman and attacking it. Muslims believe in the afterlife. Jews don't. Muslims believe Jesus was divinely inspired. Jews don't. Muslims believe in the devil. Jews don't.

But the most important thing is that Jews hate Jesus Christ and Muslims don't. I don't think Judaism has anything significant in common with Christianity at all, and there is a considerable amount of Jewish and Christian literature to support that perspective.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd March 02, 2018 11:34 AM  

Rusty wrote:Exactly. If you aren't killing goats and rams you ain't a real hebrew.

If you don't perform your sacrifices in the Temple in Jerusalem, you ain't a real hebrew. Pity God took the Temple away, and closed down real hebrewism for good.

Blogger VD March 02, 2018 11:35 AM  

Something similar might be said of the current pope, who doesn't profess to believe in Hell or eternal death, putting the eternal life proposition also in doubt, and questioning just what deity he worships.

I absolutely agree. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if he worshipped the same god that the Orthodox Jews appear to worship.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 02, 2018 11:38 AM  

@77

"Moreover, do you really believe that after being unable to go 40 years without chasing after foreign gods under far less duress, do you seriously believe the surviving Israelites have been faithful to Jehovah for nearly 2,000 years?

What evidence do you see of that? In Hollywood? Psychology? Do you see more evidence of Jehovah or of the God of this World?"

Ah. First set of questions, answer is no. Second set, why even you ask me that? Jesus is still tarrying and we are in the world but not of it.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 02, 2018 11:40 AM  

@77
For starters, Leviticus 17, to prevent the newly liberated Hebrews from falling back into idol worship.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+17&version=NIV

The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Speak to Aaron and his sons and to all the Israelites and say to them: ‘This is what the Lord has commanded: 3 Any Israelite who sacrifices an ox,[a] a lamb or a goat in the camp or outside of it 4 instead of bringing it to the entrance to the tent of meeting to present it as an offering to the Lord in front of the tabernacle of the Lord—that person shall be considered guilty of bloodshed; they have shed blood and must be cut off from their people. 5 This is so the Israelites will bring to the Lord the sacrifices they are now making in the open fields. They must bring them to the priest, that is, to the Lord, at the entrance to the tent of meeting and sacrifice them as fellowship offerings. 6 The priest is to splash the blood against the altar of the Lord at the entrance to the tent of meeting and burn the fat as an aroma pleasing to the Lord. 7 They must no longer offer any of their sacrifices to the goat idols[b] to whom they prostitute themselves. This is to be a lasting ordinance for them and for the generations to come.’

8 “Say to them: ‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice 9 and does not bring it to the entrance to the tent of meeting to sacrifice it to the Lord must be cut off from the people of Israel.

10 “‘I will set my face against any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who eats blood, and I will cut them off from the people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.[c] 12 Therefore I say to the Israelites, “None of you may eat blood, nor may any foreigner residing among you eat blood.”

13 “‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth, 14 because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, “You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off.”

15 “‘Anyone, whether native-born or foreigner, who eats anything found dead or torn by wild animals must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be ceremonially unclean till evening; then they will be clean. 16 But if they do not wash their clothes and bathe themselves, they will be held responsible.’”

Anonymous Anonymous March 02, 2018 11:48 AM  

If you don't perform your sacrifices in the Temple in Jerusalem, you ain't a real hebrew. Pity God took the Temple away, and closed down real hebrewism for good.

A couple years ago some Samaritans tried to celebrate passover in deuteronomic style.

They were promptly arrested by the jews.

Blogger SemiSpook37 March 02, 2018 11:52 AM  

@VD

I absolutely agree. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if he worshipped the same god that the Orthodox Jews appear to worship.

Well, given that Jorge is a Jesuit, anything is possible. Beginning to understand why the order was suppressed originally and puzzled as to why it didn’t stay that way.

Blogger James March 02, 2018 12:02 PM  

Shimshon wrote:

The funny thing is, if Beverly Hills 90210 were an accurate reflection of the reality of the early 1990s, about 80% of the characters would be Jewish, but even there it's the token Jew(s) in a sea of gentiles.


It is undeniable that Hollywood is a jewish invention. The studio heads, the producers, and the writers are statistical proof of this. But, what about the actors? Prior to the 50’s, there weren’t that many jewish leading men. Even fewer jewish leading ladies. Oh, sure, the ethnic looking supporting character actors were very often jewish. Funny how jews always employ other jews, since it is racism if Whites do it. But, why weren’t there more jewish leading men and women in the past? Looks! It has taken centuries of interbreeding with attractive Whites to filter out the Julius Streicher looking jews. And names like Goldberg or Silverstein were dead giveaways, so you got Kirk Douglas instead of Issur Danielovitch.

Of all the women we consider beautiful actresses, not many were jewish. And the ones with jewish ancestry were usually mischlings. Examples of early “jewish” beauties were Paulette Goddard, Hedy Lamar, and Lauren Bacall (well, the young Bacall wasn’t repulsive). In the 60’s and 70’s you got Dyan Cannon, Jill St. John, Barbara Bach and Jane Seymour. Amazing what White blood and plastic surgery can do! However, at some point in the 80’s and 90’s, we began to see a larger number of decent looking “jewish” women. Wynona Ryder, Gwyneth Paltrow, and Natalie Portman come to mind. Today, there is a fair number in movies and on TV. And most of them are of Israeli descent! Is it the Sephardic jew/White admixture that is responsible, as opposed to the Ashkenazi/White blend? Some jewish actresses are passed off as beautiful, but are merely goy looking females with cosmetic surgery and good bodies, like Scarlett Johansson.

This is one of the ways jews infiltrate. Immigrate to a country, set up shady but lucrative businesses, buy your way into polite society, then breed subsequent generations into the attractive goy line. People ALWAYS prefer to associate with others like them. The Ashkenazi invaders were demonstrably different in looks, behavior, and names, so the host culture preferred not to associate with them. When you look just like, or close enough, to the host culture, dress and speak like them, the parasite has succeeded in infecting the host. Good luck trying to get rid of them after that

Blogger James March 02, 2018 12:03 PM  

Paul Sacramento wrote: I think it is due to a desire to see the similarities and a certain MISPLACED guilt about what happened to Jews in the past. Many truly want to see the Jews as our "mistaken and misinformed cousins".

Attempting a guilt trip on the unsuspecting goy cattle is a very jewy thing to do. It is also how they were able to infiltrate negroes into White society. But, there is nothing for Whites to feel guilty about concerning either jews or negroes. Ghettos and pograms were just inoculations to stave off an invading malignant organism. Segregation and Apartheid were commonsense practices to do the same. Cruel? Only if said organisms could actually contribute to the host culture. Since they could not, White prophylaxis against jews and negroes was akin to a quarantine against a toxic organism, with antibiotics as a cure. I’m sure syphilis considers Benzathine penicillin G to be cruel. Of course, it works best in the early stages and is unable to repair the damage already done. There’s nothing you can do for tertiary syphilis. Just remember: Being cruel to syphilis, or jews, or negroes is being kind to your descendents.

Blogger Looking Glass March 02, 2018 12:06 PM  

@77 VD

Going a couple of weeks without chasing after another deity was hard for the Hebrews.


@88 SemiSpook37

The Jesuits seem to have infiltrated fairly early, used a means for other actors to get involved. Notice that conquest of areas tended to follow their activities, and they specifically set about preventing Jewish or Muslims converts from joining, about 50 years after their founding. (By then, it was too late.)

Or, it's simply an identity issue. You don't send out the recently converted to teach the Gospel. (They can evangelize, but teaching is different.) The concepts were poisoned early, but the "benefits" were too strong to go against.

Blogger Joseph Maroney March 02, 2018 1:11 PM  

"I've long thought that the second temple Judaism we see in the NT was very hellenized (over a foundation of Babylonian Judaism)."

Babylonian Judaism is a very accurate label. The Kabbalah is Babylonian.

Greek philosophy was the spillage of one of the seven sacred sciences (again, Babylonian) into the mainstream (uninitiated ones) and probably was not meant to happen.

Blogger Matamoros March 02, 2018 2:29 PM  

If you want to understand God's judgment upon the Temple, the end of the Old Covenant and its destruction in 70AD I would recommend you start with Brian Godawa's "End Times Bible Prophecy: It’s Not What They Told You".

Enlightening reading. Definitely upgraded my understanding, and it also answers the question of who are the Jews some have asked.

Blogger McChuck March 02, 2018 2:36 PM  

@73 ??? Incoherent, or incomplete?
Pointing out that Islam is evil and utterly opposed to Christianity somehow makes me a Jew?

Blogger tublecane March 02, 2018 2:59 PM  

@5-Depends on the context. Jews, like other groups, feel free to speak openly to eachother. It's "speaking out of school" that's frowned upon.

Blogger tublecane March 02, 2018 3:05 PM  

@28-That's not what the term simply implies.

It may be what conscientious defenders of the term fall back upon when pressured, but there are obviously other implications.

Blogger Daniel March 02, 2018 3:09 PM  

Nevercheard before. Pls links

Blogger tublecane March 02, 2018 3:09 PM  

@31-The Holocaust wasn't the Big Deal it is now in the mid-50s, however. At least not in mainstream culture.

The propaganda really kicked in with the Eichmann trial and Night in the eaely-60s, then of course the Holocaust t.v. miniseries in the late-70s.

Blogger dienw March 02, 2018 3:51 PM  

@80
It is acknowledged quite clearly there in the Bible that Judaism is godless, and that they will at some point be converted.


This is why it is important to stress correct definitions and names: the primary meaning of "Jew" is a member of the tribe of Judah and by extension a member of one of the three tribes of the house/kingdom of Judah; the secondary meaning is someone who is a member of the Talmudic religion or a Pharisee; the two are not the same populations: neither the Ashkenazi (the dominant Turkic Japhethite tribe) or Edomites are of the house of Judah. The inability of Americans to distinguish the difference in the early nineteenth century allowed the Pharisees (enabled by the then Supreme Court) to infiltrate our institutions; and, it led directly to allowing their massive immigration and to the entire "Judeo-" deception.

Also:
The name Israel belongs to the Northern Kingdom the ten tribes led by Ephraim; the name Israel, Jacob, Isaac, even Abraham were bequeathed to the Tribe of Joseph by Jacob when he blessed Ephraim and Manasseh, before he died. It is written in hte bible that Jesus himself declared that He had come to create a new covenant with the "lost" tribes of Israel.

Anonymous Anonymous March 02, 2018 4:04 PM  

Steve wrote:the second century of the common era

Tfw you hate Christ so much you invent a historically nonsensical "common era" to take His name off the calendar.


Yeah, it's the little things that bug me. The nonsense that is slipped in by the back door, dressed up in academic robes. But what sense does "Common Era" make? Common to whom? Seems to me that this egregious date notation implicitly assumes that something like the Judaeo-Christian tradition actually exists. And because this "tradition" isn't, I ask again, common to whom?

Anonymous Anonymous March 02, 2018 4:13 PM  

I think the "Christianity is closer to Mohammedanism than Judaism" is a red and fairly stinky herring. Saying that Christ was a prophet (who taught the same stuff as Mo) denigrates Christ, and shows no real parallel between the two religions. I'd say that Islam and Judaism are far more similar in their emphasis on the law and the obsessive study of legal commentaries than either is to Christianity.

In fact, anyone who says Christianity is similar to any other faith on the planet simply doesn't understand Christianity. The Christian faith is unique, and defies all comparison.

Anonymous Anonymous March 02, 2018 4:25 PM  

There is some commonality between Jews and Christians, specifically in the worship of the same God, the Father.

God is the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jews believe in absolute monotheism, which the Godhead is not, and they actively reject Trinitarianism (as do Mohammadans), so the Jews cannot be worshiping the same God as Christians.

There was a time in history where the Jews could claim ignorance to this fact, but not today. It has all been revealed quite clearly, and their rejection is the witness against them.

Anonymous Anonymous March 02, 2018 4:28 PM  

Do you observe a Saturday Sabbath? Churchians kicked the Sabbath into touch, replacing it with a fictional 'Lord's Day', with no biblical justification. Add in all of the other laws and statutes we ignore, and the evil new laws our nations now impose, and it's no surprise (and welcome in fact) that Jehovah now displays His wrath, and punishes our nations.

Absolute tripe and heresy. Judaizers will join their true brethren, the Jews, in the judgment.

Blogger tublecane March 02, 2018 4:29 PM  

@100-Muslims do denigrate Christ, but the issue is who denigrates him more: Jews or Muslims. Obviously, it's Jews.

Blogger Gary March 02, 2018 4:55 PM  

'Absolute tripe and heresy. Judaizers will join their true brethren, the Jews, in the judgment.'

It can't be heresy, liar, because it's in the bible.
Jesus himself observed the Sabbath (as noted in the bible).
Ignore the word of God and His laws and statutes at your peril.
Please re-read the Lord's own words on the subject in my first comment. Despite your *beliefs*, the Law still applies.

Blogger DJ | AMDG March 02, 2018 4:57 PM  

Since there has been plenty of eschatology in these comments, I don’t think this is too OT.

I’d love to read a scifi book the depicts Revelation or an orthodox Christian view the “end times” but placed within a far off space faring future...with aliens...and ray guns.

Blogger Nathan Housley March 02, 2018 5:04 PM  

@104,

Jasper Scott's Dark Space Universe has an interesting technological take on the New Jerusalem.

Blogger MeneMene March 02, 2018 5:40 PM  

Gary: There have been many Muslim to Christian conversions in recent years. Jesus appears to them in dreams - it's one of the most common ways Muslims come to Christ. David Woods (You Tube Acts17Apologetics) does a lot of Muslim outreach. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYL5TZ9jJqg

Blogger SirHamster March 02, 2018 5:40 PM  

James wrote:This is one of the ways jews infiltrate. Immigrate to a country, set up shady but lucrative businesses, buy your way into polite society, then breed subsequent generations into the attractive goy line. People ALWAYS prefer to associate with others like them. The Ashkenazi invaders were demonstrably different in looks, behavior, and names, so the host culture preferred not to associate with them. When you look just like, or close enough, to the host culture, dress and speak like them, the parasite has succeeded in infecting the host. Good luck trying to get rid of them after that

It's a little eerie how much this sounds like Tyranid genestealer cults from Warhammer 40K.

Might make a decent meme or two.

Anonymous Anonymous March 02, 2018 5:47 PM  

It can't be heresy, liar, because it's in the bible.

Ah, "it's in the Bible," the justification of every heresy since St. Peter defended his Judiazing and Arius denied the divinity of Christ.

Blogger SirHamster March 02, 2018 5:48 PM  

Sidehill Dodger wrote:I think the "Christianity is closer to Mohammedanism than Judaism" is a red and fairly stinky herring. Saying that Christ was a prophet (who taught the same stuff as Mo) denigrates Christ, and shows no real parallel between the two religions.

Calling Jesus a prophet is absolutely true, and accepts that his words carry divine authority.

From there you have an opening to argue that Christians have not lost Jesus's teachings, and challenge the Muslim to consider Jesus's teachings and his claims about himself.

In contrast, the Jew must first be convinced that Jesus is an authority to be listened to; this is an extra step and can be a great hurdle because they have teachings that Jesus is a liar and untrustworthy and does not exist.

That extra work reflects the greater distance Judaism has from Christianity compared to Islam.

Blogger the bandit March 02, 2018 6:01 PM  

VD wrote:On point 2. The Muslims are indeed awaiting the rise of the 13th Imam.

Come on. That's like substituting "Mormon" for "Christian". Only Twelver Shia Muslims are doing that.

Ithnā'ashariyyah Muslims are between 8.5 and 11 percent of the global Muslim population.


However, the difference between Sunnis and Shi'ites isn't that the Shi'ites believe in the Mahdi and the Sunnis do not. It's that the Shi'ites believe that the Mahdi has already been born and it's their job to kill all the infidels now to usher in his reign, whereas the Sunni believe they should wait for the Mahdi (who hasn't been born yet) to assume power first. And then join him in killing all infidels. As I am known to say, "The only difference between a radical Muslim and a moderate Muslim is the moderate doesn't believe it's his job to kill infidels ... yet."

Granted, some modern Sunnis have decided that it's all happened already or is all completely metaphorical; but some modern Christians see Revelation the same way. We don't consider Postmillennialists who don't believe Jesus is actually coming back as very representative of Biblical Christianity.

When it comes to prophecies regarding the Mahdi, the parallels to the antichrist are striking. Even just the handful you can find on Infogalactic under Sunni Mahdi prophecy, it's clear that Mahdi is a separate person from Jesus, will unite the world under one rule and one religion (Islam), eliminating all others, will rule for about 7 years, and then after him comes Doomsday.

I know every generation always believes their big religious enemy is the true manifestation of the Antichrist, and I find globalism another convincing argument, but Walid Shoebat's God's War on Terror has me rather convinced Islam's Mahdi will be the Antichrist. It seems rather like Satan to co-opt Antichrist prophecy to make the Antichrist more convincing.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 02, 2018 6:09 PM  

He Bible defines what the Sabbath is and what Sabbaths are. The Sabbath's definition in the OT changed a couple of times, IIRC.
For Christians, all days are sabbaths and which day is to be the Sabbath set aside for corporate worship is to be decided by a given Church.
Paul was clear that for some a day was of special significance and for others, all days are the same.
The Lord Jesus is our Sabbath. Do not own the sabbath, better to befriend the owner and Lord of the Sabbath.

Blogger Gary March 02, 2018 6:39 PM  

@108,

If that's all you have to say, your position is really weak. If you choose to disregard the words of Jesus and Jehovah you walk a dangerous path.

@111,

'For Christians, all days are sabbaths and which day is to be the Sabbath set aside for corporate worship is to be decided by a given Church.'

Jehovah decides the Sabbath, it's the 7th day, a day for rest and to worship Him. 'A given church' does not get to decide, or if it does, it also gets to decide on the joys of female pastors, or gay weddings. It's best if we just stick to God's very clear word and His laws. Otherwise we end up precisely where we are today: judged guilty, and justly punished for breaking the covenant.

Paul did not abolish the Sabbath either, to the contrary he was very law-abiding and encouraged others to do the same:

https://www.logosapostolic.org/bible_study/RP208-1PaulObservedSabbathDay.htm



Blogger JaimeInTexas March 02, 2018 7:44 PM  

Today is the day of entering into God's rest.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+4&version=NIV


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14&version=NIV

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”[b]

12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 02, 2018 7:53 PM  

As to Paul observing the Sabbath ... yes and he also was reaching the Jews.
Paul also said "foolish Galatians who has bewitched" (from memory, I am sure it accurate).

Do we not eat bacon, crawfish, crabs, etc?e
Do we must circumcise our male offspring on their 8th day?
Do we must ritually cleanse due to ... the list is long.

Beware of the Jewdizers.

Blogger The Social Pathologist March 02, 2018 9:24 PM  

Vox, I think you're wrong with Christianity having more in common with Islam than Judaism. In fact, Islam and Judaism are more alike. Leo Strauss, the intellectual linchpin of Neoconservatism had this to stay, (Stanford Encylopaedia of Philosophy)


Yet Strauss was not indifferent to the content of revelation and certainly not to the difference between Jewish and Christian notions of revelation. In fact, Strauss strongly criticizes what he regards as a particularly Christian view of revelation not in order to banish revelation from intellectual conversation once and for all but to suggest that modernity’s intellectual ills stem in large part from the legacy of Christian theology. Strikingly, it was on the basis of the Islamic, as opposed to the Christian, reception of classical political philosophy that Strauss turned to reconsider the meanings of philosophy, revelation, and politics. Strauss’s very attempt to move beyond modern philosophy is predicated on a distinction between the Jewish and Islamic conception of revelation on the one hand, and the Christian conception, on the other hand:

For the Christian, the sacred doctrine is revealed theology; for the Jew and the Muslim, the sacred doctrine is, at least primarily the legal interpretation of the Divine Law (talmud or fiqh). The sacred doctrine in the latter sense has, to say the least, much less in common with philosophy than the sacred doctrine in the former sense. It is ultimately for this reason that the status of philosophy was, as a matter of principle, much more precarious in Judaism and in Islam than in Christianity: in Christianity philosophy became an integral part of the officially recognized and even required training of the student of the sacred doctrine….The precarious position of philosophy in the Islamic-Jewish world guaranteed its private character and therewith its inner-freedom from supervision. The status of philosophy in the Islamic-Jewish world resembled in this respect its status in classical Greece. (PAW, pp. 18–19, 21)

Strauss problematizes the Christian view of revelation as doctrinal knowledge that must be believed. From his early to his mature writings, Strauss contends that the making of revelation into knowledge in scholastic theology ultimately led to modern philosophy’s far too over-reaching claims. As Strauss puts it rather succinctly, “On the querelle des anciens et des modernes: I do not deny, but assert, that modern philosophy has much that is essential in common with Christian medieval philosophy; but that means that the attack of the moderns is directed decisively against ancient philosophy” (CCM, p. 106). Or, as he puts it elsewhere, “modern philosophy emerged by way of transformation of, if in opposition to, Latin or Christian scholasticism”

Blogger The Stygian March 03, 2018 12:37 AM  

It's funny. When my friendships I have our Friday night fireside chats it has often been brought up that we speculate that God chose the Jewish people because they were the lowly of the lowliest and God loves a challenge.

Blogger MycroftJones March 03, 2018 1:52 AM  

Rusty wrote:A couple years ago some Samaritans tried to celebrate passover in deuteronomic style.

They were promptly arrested by the jews.


That is an odd thing for you to say. The Samaritans have been sacrificing the Passover lambs on Mount Gerizim since always. Many Jews come up to the mountain of Jehovah to partake of the Passover with them, with respect and brotherhood.

Blogger MycroftJones March 03, 2018 2:04 AM  

VD wrote:
Occam's Razor suggests a very simple explanation for why they do not sacrifice to Jehovah: they worship a different god. And is that really so far-fetched, considering their previous history of turning to different gods in much shorter periods of time?


Without denying your main point, which I agree with, I'd clarify this one like so: Leviticus and Deuteronomy limited sacrifices to the Levitical priesthood. And they were limited to the sanctuary. As per the prophet Daniel (chapter 8) the sanctuary was taken away and defiled, and cannot be used for sacrifices. Also as per Daniel, the sanctuary will be restored about 400 years hence, so the sacrifices can resume. That is the Jewish understanding.

As a counterpoint to that, even the prophet Samuel didn't limit himself to the sanctuary when doing sacrifices. This indicates that only certain sacrifices had to be done in the sanctuary, by Levites, while others could be done elsewhere, by non-Levites. Muslims, and Orthodox Christians in the Middle East, and Christians in African countries (including Brazil and the Caribbean) still practice animal sacrifice. So it hasn't actually gone away, except in the West.

Blogger Gary March 03, 2018 7:50 AM  

@114,

'5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord.'

Note the next line IS NOT 'Whoever regards each day alike does so to the Lord'. You imagine that is what it says and means. But it doesn't. The Sabbath stands, of course, it's one of the 10 commands.

I stopped eating pig flesh and shrimp etc when I read Jehovah's wise advice in the Old Testament. It's somewhat foolish to eat animals that literally eat shit. Hence God's warning.

The list is really not that long, since Jesus' coming, all animal sacrifices are ended. It is simply too much bother for modern man to grasp God's laws and stick to them.

So, we don't love Him back, and He rightfully shows us His wrath. Keep on fighting it, see what happens.

Anonymous Anonymous March 03, 2018 8:21 AM  

I stopped eating pig flesh and shrimp etc when I read Jehovah's wise advice in the Old Testament.

This is more Judiazing. This heresy was condemned at the Apostolic Council in Acts 15. Only Jewish converts to Christianity are permitted to observe the Old Law. Observation of the law is rejection of grace, trading the truth for a lie, trading the dark glass to the clear revelation of Christ.

"The shadow of the Law is passed away with the coming of grace."

The Christian holy day is Sunday, the day of the Resurrection. The Resurrection is the Eighth Day of Creation, when the universe was transformed.

The Sabbath of the Jews is mired in the forming of the material world which is passing away, while the Lord's Day of Christians embraces the spiritual life, eternal life, which Christ gave us in the Resurrection.

Are you a "Jehovah's Witness" (Neo-Arian)? Because you talk like one.

Blogger Gary March 03, 2018 10:14 AM  

Brother, why do you criticise me for the statement:

'I stopped eating pig flesh and shrimp etc when I read Jehovah's wise advice in the Old Testament.'

Do you think you know better than God, that you think such food is good for man to eat? I'll take Jehovah's wise counsel wherever I find it, over yours.

The shadow of the law was death. That has now passed via Christ's dying for our sins. The law hasn't passed, as Jesus confirmed (see scripture further up the thread).

If you want to deny the Lord's own words, and those of his Father, I humbly suggest you're not following the path at all. Or do you now espouse anarchy here on earth? Or the laws of men? Please tell me which you choose.

I'll stick with God and Jesus though.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 03, 2018 5:19 PM  

Gary. You choose to observe certain dietary restrictions and holidays, as your reasonable daily sacrifice to the Lord and in good conscience. Where you err is in claiming that it is a requirement for others.

As to animal sacrifices outdide the Temple, they were exceptions, and by prophets, that proved to be acceptable to God.
The show bread was to be in the Holy Place, and only lawfully eaten by the priests IIRC. Yet, David ate of it without condemnation by God. OTOH, the fellow that touched the Ark Of The Covenant when it tipped was struck dead.
Unless you are a bona fide prophet, I would not venture animal sacrifices oitside the Temple, were I a Jew.

Blogger Gary March 04, 2018 9:16 AM  

'Where you err is in claiming that it is a requirement for others.'

The dietary restrictions is simply following God's advice, it's up to each man if he does that or not.

The Sabbaths (please, not holidays) are to be observed still. Jesus Himself observed the Passover. Jesus Himself confirmed that the law and commands still apply. The Sabbath is one of God's ten commandments to Moses, to us. They don't change, ever.

You err if you ignore His words, and choose to believe Churchian tradition instead.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 04, 2018 10:43 AM  

And Jesus, then, proceeded to change the Passsover from the original animal sacrifice sacrifices based Sabbath and explicitly make it about Himself.

Which of laws are still effective?

Do yourself a favor and do a study on the Sabbath and how the term is used.

Are you Seventh Day Adventist or Messianic Jew?

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 04, 2018 10:44 AM  

BTW, if you have not noticed, we are under a new covenant. Hint, it is found in the New Testament part of the Bible.

Blogger Gary March 04, 2018 1:20 PM  

Indeed we are under the new covenant.

Under that covenant, God recognises we are sinners, and we'll never fully meet His laws. So, with grace, He sent His son to die for all of humanity's sins, a tremendous act of love for us. So, many of us will be saved (well, perhaps not as many as one might imagine). That's God's side of the covenant, yes?

But a covenant has two sides. What is our side of the covenant? Christians normally draw a blank there, or mumble something about 'believing in Jesus, having faith, being like Jesus, being good, repenting from sin'. No, those aren't our part of the covenant, although all are worthy aspirations.

Our side of the covenant is clearly stated, many times, by Jesus, by the Apostles, and by Paul. I'll give you just a few examples:

'16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.'

(His laws are now in our hearts and minds. Tell me, does that make them disappear: poof, they no longer apply? Or does it make them all the more important?)

'3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.'

(Self-explanatory isn't it? Do you keep His commandments? Or do you think they no longer apply?)

'If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.'

(Jesus, as always, very clear in His meaning. Follow the words and laws of his Father).

Blogger Gary March 04, 2018 1:21 PM  

(2)

'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.'

(One jot nor one tittle shall pass from the law. Just as God says in the Old Testament, don't add or subtract from his commands).

'25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. '

(Jesus literally confirms that obeying the commands of his Father is necessary for eternal life).

'49Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. 50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. 51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.'

(Ditto, we must keep God's sayings, his laws, his statutes).

'1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.'

(Needs no elaboration).

'21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.'

(Where do we find the will of the Father? It's in the Old Testamant, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy etc. Well worth reading and comprehending, assuming you really want to get to heaven).

I'll stop there, maybe you will go away and have a think on this matter. It's good to be open to the truth.

Don't bother to reply with your own words, and don't try to ignore all of the above scripture. That's a path to antinomianism, which is the path espoused by the father of lies, not the Father of truth.

May God give you wisdom and discernment.

Oh, I'm a Christian, relatively new to faith, but enjoying reading the bible and learning about God's glory, his expectations, his love. Perhaps listen to this for inspiration, and reflect on the state of the world today, as humans (more or less) totally move away from God's statutes:

http://earnestlycontendingforthefaith.com/King%20James%20Bible%20Audio/Leviticus%2026.mp3


Blogger JaimeInTexas March 05, 2018 3:41 PM  

"relatively new to faith"

In 1985, I was 25, a self-labelled atheist/agnostic, when I became a Christian.

I am not appealing to authority but a very little of my background.

I lived, for a few weeks, with a former Muslim with degrees in philosophy and computer science, with whom I had conversations well into the wee hours of the night, just about every night. I also deeply delved into apologetics for many years. I once debated with an LDS Aaronic and Melchisedec Priests, at their home. I grew up in an island where, IIRC, was about 92% Roman Catholic when I was in middle school and Baptists were a curiosity.

I say to you as well "May God give you wisdom and discernment," test all spirits that they me of God. All I can suggest to you at this time is for you to read the Bible from cover to cover, at least one, without inserting your opinion or knowledge of the Bible in areas that are past the narrative or time period of the text at hand ... start now.

I know what Jesus has taught. I also know how he handled the attempts at entrapment. But I also accept the inspiration of the Epistles and accept Paul's teachings as authoritative.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 05, 2018 3:42 PM  

I am still working on contact possibility in Morocco. Not sure if it will work out yet.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 05, 2018 3:46 PM  

John 6
(snip)
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
(snip)

Remember that Passover "re-invention" I mentioned before. The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was all about. The Passover became Communion, as it is called and performed by Christians since.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 05, 2018 3:49 PM  

"relatively new to faith"

In 1985, I was 25, a self-labelled atheist/agnostic, when I became a Christian.

I am not appealing to authority but a very little of my background.

I lived, for a few weeks, with a former Muslim with degrees in philosophy and computer science, with whom I had conversations well into the wee hours of the night, just about every night. I also deeply delved into apologetics for many years. I once debated with an LDS Aaronic and Melchisedec Priests, at their home. I grew up in an island where, IIRC, was about 92% Roman Catholic when I was in middle school and Baptists were a curiosity.

I say to you as well "May God give you wisdom and discernment," test all spirits that they me of God. All I can suggest to you at this time is for you to read the Bible from cover to cover, at least one, without inserting your opinion or knowledge of the Bible in areas that are past the narrative or time period of the text at hand ... start now.

I know what Jesus has taught. I also know how he handled the attempts at entrapment. But I also accept the inspiration of the Epistles and accept Paul's teachings as authoritative.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 05, 2018 3:50 PM  

"they me of God" --> they be of God

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 05, 2018 3:52 PM  

Vox, I hope you do not mind my adding one more extensive Biblical quote.


Galatians 3 King James Version (KJV)

3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Blogger Gary March 05, 2018 6:18 PM  

The interesting thing is I can agree with every word of scripture you shared, absolutely. We're saved by grace. Jesus took away the death of the law. The law does not in itself make us righteous.

But none of that even slightly hints at meaning the law was just cast aside, as indeed all of the quotes I provided show. The law is (or should be) in our hearts and our minds, meaning we live it as part of us.

And yet, so many churches preach antinomianism, and that the law no longer applies. And so society slides into judgement and God's wrath.

I honestly think it's an incoherent position to assume God sent Jesus to die for our law-breaking, and then just abolished the law. And apart from the incoherence, it's not supported by scripture. I find it ironic that most Churches these days are just like the Pharisees 2,000 years ago. The save a soul and then make it a hundred times worse by being hypocrites.

Thanks re the Morocco thing though. I too have a few mentors that are guiding me, despite my relatively recent conversion.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 05, 2018 6:46 PM  

I will close with these. You can have the last word.

I do not say that the Law no longer applies but that the New Testament says that some of the Law no longer applies because it has been fulfilled, for example, the required Day Of Atonement's sacrifice. And that aspect of the Law only applied to the nation Israel.

Ceremonial and/or dietary requirements intended for the nation of Israel and, must be kept.

Are your mentors members of a denomination in particular?

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 05, 2018 6:55 PM  

Ahhh. FWIW, I forgot to include that my primary denominational influence in my Christian life have been:
Christian And Missionary Alliance
Evangelical Free Church



Blogger Gary March 06, 2018 9:09 AM  

It's clear that sacrificial laws no longer apply.
It's clear that the Sabbath still applies, the ten commandments are never going to change.
It's clear that nations have stopped using God's civil laws and military laws (as well as the personal laws), hence the troubles we see. We are the Israelites now.
It's clear most churches allow women to have uncovered heads and to speak in church, and many allow female pastors too, and all other manner of evil.

I advocate a return to the laws that still apply, so that a remnant can be heard by God, and He will show mercy on us, and allow us to form new nations. There's no point fighting a civil war, only to set off on the wrong foot if you win.

My mentors do not attend churches presently. One is from an evangelical background, not sure about the other two, as they are relatively new acquaintances. But they're all biblical.

Post a Comment

Rules of the blog
Please do not comment as "Anonymous". Comments by "Anonymous" will be spammed.

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts