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Monday, April 30, 2018

Mailvox: expert witness

John Fuerst of the Ulster Institute weighs in on the myth of the 115 mean IQ being pushed by Jordan Peterson, among others, with a pair of comments here:
I more or less agree with Vox. I collaborate with Richard Lynn and I am familiar with the literature and most of the studies (both reported and not).

As for Israel, on international tests, Hebrew speakers (Jews) score around the level of White Europeans, while Arab speakers score around that of other Middle Easterners (around 1+ standard deviation below the European White mean). See, for example, "Why Israel does poorly in the PISA exams – perceptions versus reality (2017)", and the Taub Centers’ “State of the nation picture (2014/2017)” reports.

For example, the non- Haredi Jewish PISA 2012 math average was 489 (SD ~93), for White Americans for the same year it was 506 (SD 83). For Israel and the US as a whole, the means and SDs were, respectively, 481 (SD 90) and 466 (SD 105).
There is year to year variability. But it is safe to say that on international math, reading, and science exams, Israeli Jews do no better than Whites in typical Western countries. Note, these figures exclude most Haredi Jews who both do rather poor on exams (see the Taub Center's reports) and who are around 80% Ashk. Thus, the testing samples tend to be less Ashk than the general population, but the excluded Ashk are substantially less proficient than average.)

Thus, as Vox notes, if one argues that Ashk Israeli come in at around 115, one has to maintain that non-Ashk Jews come in around 85. Yet, this latter conjecture is inconsistent with the variance among Jews (e.g., Figure 2, 2017 paper) and, more notably, the national scores at the 98th percentile (e.g., Figure 4, 2017 paper), a point which can be shown quantitatively. The relatively high standard deviation among Israeli Jews (about 93 versus the American White 83) does suggest subgroup differences, though.

Of course, one could make ad hoc accounts for why Ashk Jews in Israel seemingly do worse that Ashk Jews in the U.S. and ad hoc accounts for why the meta-analytic American Jewish IQ is closer to 5 IQ points above the White mean than 15. But, at this point, we are just adding epicycles.

I should note that IQ and achievement tests in Israel indicate a 0.5 to 1.0 standard deviation gap between Ashkenazi/European origin Jews and Oriental & North African origin ones. (Migrant generation, test, and sample depending.) Richard has a somewhat dated summary. Of course, I would advise checking the original studies and taking his summary statistic with a grain of salt -- as should be done with everyone.

David, H., & Lynn, R. (2007). Intelligence Differences between European and Oriental Jews in Israel. Journal of Biosocial Science, 39(3), 465-473.

My working estimate is a Ashk ~ 12 point advantage overall non-Ashk Jew in Israel. There is further differentiation between Oriental, North African, and Ethiopian Jews, of course. I base this on what Richard reported and a number of studies missed, but mean it as only a crude estimate.

If the mean Jewish Israeli IQ is about 100 normed on a typical White sample, the mean Ashk Israeli IQ would seem to be about 106.
For the record, John Fuerst is a serious scholar in the field of human intelligence. He knows as much about this stuff as anyone else, and certainly more than the long-dead scholars who cherry-picked test results from first-graders more than sixty years ago.

Labels: , ,

91 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous April 30, 2018 11:26 AM  

Jordan Peterson went with his liberal bias (yes, he's a liberal, just not of the Current Year variety), whilst Vox Day went with data and mathematics.

It's working out just about exactly how you'd expect such a disagreement to go.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 30, 2018 11:34 AM  

Heavens to Murgatroyd!

Blogger Robert Browning April 30, 2018 11:39 AM  

You made your case. I would like to hear from Peterson.

Blogger Nate73 April 30, 2018 12:00 PM  

Can someone explain the Monsanto/Peterson thing to me? All I could find is Monsanto sponsored a Peterson speech where he went off script and talked about university SJWs the whole time.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 30, 2018 12:01 PM  

Robert Browning wrote:You made your case. I would like to hear from Peterson.
Don't hold your breath.
His best approach would be to admit he didn't really know the subject area, he was wrong on the particulars and he needs to think about it for a while.
But that's never gonna happen. Gamma Secret King cannot ever admit being wrong.
His desired response would be to double down, call names and refuse to address the arguments, see his response to Piggot. Hopefully he has more sense than that, but gammas are emotionally driven.

He seems smart enough to just let it drop, but we'll see.

Blogger SirMaorio April 30, 2018 12:04 PM  

@3

from what I could gather form the twatter thread from linked here in a previous blogpost about this subject, Peterson will not comment further on this. If there is to be any comment on this from him it will be in the form of name calling and personal attacks, anti-semite, racist, your pick of -ist insult.

Apparently there was a good reason I stopped watching the guy a while back, whilst I've continued reading Vox.

Blogger denizenofgoo April 30, 2018 12:08 PM  

Ashkenazi IQ is lopsided and it's verbal ability where they are better. It's likely that this advantage is quite amenable to environmental factors like schoolbooks simplificaiton,

"The 50+ point decline in mean SAT-verbal scores between 1963 and 1979 is widely
attributed to changes in the composition of the test-takers. Several inconsistencies in
that explanation are identified. That explanation also ignores the pervasive decline In
the difficulty of schoolbooks found by analyzing the texts of 800 elementary middle,
and high school books published between 1919-1991. When this text simplification
series is linked to the SAT verbal series, there is a general fit for the three major periods:
before, during, and after the decline. "

Paper here,

www.indiana.edu/~educy520/sec6342/week_07/hayes96.pdf

Blogger Anno Ruse April 30, 2018 12:12 PM  

"You made your case. I would like to hear from Peterson."

You'd like to hear from Dr. Jordan Peterson, MD? That'll cost you $100 Patreon bucks, bucko.

Blogger VD April 30, 2018 12:13 PM  

Ashkenazi IQ is lopsided and it's verbal ability where they are better. It's likely that this advantage is quite amenable to environmental factors like schoolbooks simplificaiton

I observe that is the fallback position, which doesn't change the fact that the original position was flat-out wrong. But it's going to be hard to explain the physics success that way, unless you're implying that most of their physics Nobel prizes were given for rhetorical word games taking advantage of the math of others....

Blogger Unknown April 30, 2018 12:17 PM  

JBP never should have gone there in the first place. Now he has exposed himself as someone who doesn't always do his homework first.

The crack in Peterson's facade is growing wider. The Overton window is getting pulled away from the SJW's as they kick and scream. He did some good, but it's clear he can't go any farther than he has.

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim April 30, 2018 12:18 PM  

Peterson's utility is in the scope of critiques of Post-Modernism, Marxism's failures, and the recognition of order vs. chaos. He also may be an interesting weekend listen in the realm of mythology and anthropology, but that is all. I believe he himself has spread his ideas into too many realms, and we never should have expected him to be a monolithic source of truth or encouragement.

I like the music and habits of the band Rush, but I don't consult them on politics or religion. Peart is a guy I could drink a beer with, talk about Tolkien perhaps, but I won't attack him for deviations outside of those topics.

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim April 30, 2018 12:20 PM  

I do however, support Vox's insistence on integrity and accuracy of thought. We shall see if Peterson is man enough to admit his mistakes and reassess based on the (generous) feedback. Iron sharpens iron and all.

Blogger ZW April 30, 2018 12:32 PM  

Verbal IQ includes mathematics ability. The other major area of IQ is visio-spatial.

Blogger Desdichado April 30, 2018 12:39 PM  

Robert Browning wrote:You made your case. I would like to hear from Peterson.
Don't tell us here. Tell him.

Blogger electricsheeple April 30, 2018 12:39 PM  

I know this comes off as black pilled, but once someone has as much mainstream success as Jordan Peterson, and they aren't being destroyed, then you know they are failing in their duty to speak truth with courage. Under the current Order, truth speakers will always rely on smaller platforms over the long term.

Blogger Stilicho April 30, 2018 12:40 PM  

Will the movie be titled "Flowers for Algernononwitz" or "Matza for Algernon"? Either way they had a good run and won't remember what they missed, but they will remember their grudge. It's Jewish Amnesia: they forget everything but a grudge.

Anonymous Anonymous April 30, 2018 12:42 PM  

"... Hebrew speakers (Jews) score around the level of White Europeans, while Arab speakers score around that of other Middle Easterners (around 1+ standard deviation below the European White mean)."

Ok then, we have a situation where one group is at a mean of 100 with the other group at a mean of 85 for IQ. This is exactly what the USA is faced with given whites and Negros.

We have destroyed American education in large part due to the IQ gap being something we are not allowed to talk about. My Catholic school just had a "data day" where we looked at our scores and we never mentioned our vast "diversity" --- not once all damn day.

Can the Jews in Israel talk about their IQ gap?

Blogger Stilicho April 30, 2018 12:45 PM  

@stg notice how Peterson identifies with the gay cat. Even if he ascribes it to Bugs Bunny. Regardless, there is a bow tie seriously askew in canuckistan

Blogger wreckage April 30, 2018 12:46 PM  

Well that pretty much nails the coffin lid down on Peterson's Jewish IQ diatribe, doesn't it?

It's like a people group having money, a smidge above average IQ, and a tendency to look after their own is now so outrageous an idea that admitting it to be the case is tantamount to declaring them evil.

As far as I'm concerned, looking after your own is a mid-range moral obligation, not a major moral failing. But to admit that might be to admit that identity politics isn't the real evil at play in the Western world, and to admit THAT is to admit that population-replacement of whites is destroying the society their people built, and to admit THAT might get you called racist!

Might as well fellate a .38 right now and be done with it!

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 30, 2018 1:01 PM  

Stilicho wrote:@stg notice how Peterson identifies with the gay cat. Even if he ascribes it to Bugs Bunny. Regardless, there is a bow tie seriously askew in canuckistan

Yes, I even hear that faggoty, limp wristy voice in my head when I read the words. It's a tell, in that he didn't say "Great Caesar's Ghost" or something else from the same time period that is more masculine.

Blogger Weouro April 30, 2018 1:02 PM  

I guess this is one of those mistakes that he is obsessively worried about making. Now he's thinking, "o shit" and "how can I escape this" and "maybe if I look big this will turn into a bluff charge."

Blogger Lazarus April 30, 2018 1:06 PM  

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy. Richard P. Feynman


Blogger Jack Amok April 30, 2018 1:25 PM  

As far as I'm concerned, looking after your own is a mid-range moral obligation, not a major moral failing.

Secretly (for some definition of secretly) looking after your own while denouncing your hosts as the worst evildoers in history if they ever dare look after their own is definitely a major moral failing.

Another way to look at it: claiming a share of someone else's inheritance is bad enough, but doing so while refusing to share any of your own is disgusting.

Blogger pyrrhus April 30, 2018 1:28 PM  

It's amazing what data and some simple statistics can do to blowhard claims, isn't it....

Blogger Matthew April 30, 2018 1:28 PM  

Has Peterson ever talked or written about the problems of usury?

Blogger denizenofgoo April 30, 2018 1:31 PM  

"I observe that is the fallback position, which doesn't change the fact that the original position was flat-out wrong."

It's a position that's in the Ash. Jewish IQ paper by Cochran and Harpending and I have seen it elsewhere as well. Is the original position Peterson's? I don't think that holds if I don't even think that verbal ability superiority is a given.

"But it's going to be hard to explain the physics success that way"

Not really, the paper I linked doesn't talk of rhetorical word games. And as ZW noted, mathematical ability is highly correlated with verbal.

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants April 30, 2018 1:32 PM  

I test fairly high on the verbal portions and am like a bird hitting a newly cleaned window on visio-spatial. My working theory is Jews test like most women.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine April 30, 2018 1:38 PM  

"Verbal IQ includes mathematics ability."

Absolutely not.

Blogger Cecil Henry April 30, 2018 1:39 PM  

This new info is doubly damning for Peterson, but its not just the statistics that are the issue.

Its the negative and often malevolent influence of Jews on Western society, as noted time and time again.

Don't let him avoid that real issue by getting bogged down in stats. That what he love to do.

Blogger Thomas Howard April 30, 2018 2:07 PM  

With regard to the (elsewhere on the blog) stated Israeli national IQ of 95, I am curious as to whether the Jordananian/Arab 84 IQ of some Israeli citizens was included in its calculation.

Blogger R Webfoot April 30, 2018 2:16 PM  

This is Holocaustianity at play. Generally, people who hold up the Holocaust as some distinctly horrible event in human history also tend to believe that the Jews were persecuted because they're just so special and intelligent, that the Holocaust is the most well-documented event in history and you'd be CRAZY to doubt any of it, that Holocaust stories can be trusted prima facie because Jews have overwhelming incentive to be completely and scrupulously honest about it to make sure people understand exactly what happened. All these tend to be bundled together and propagandized together, and an attack on one is an attack on the whole.

Blogger VD April 30, 2018 2:21 PM  

I am curious as to whether the Jordananian/Arab 84 IQ of some Israeli citizens was included in its calculation.

Yes, of course.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener April 30, 2018 2:25 PM  

If this does wind up in a debate, remember Cucknadian debate rules: if your opponent makes you cry, you win.

Blogger ZW April 30, 2018 2:31 PM  

"Absolutely not."

I don't write the mail, I just deliver it.

Blogger Damn Crackers April 30, 2018 2:34 PM  

Didn't Muhammad Ali have a 78 IQ?

Blogger R Webfoot April 30, 2018 2:36 PM  

"But to admit that might be to admit that identity politics isn't the real evil at play in the Western world..."

Identity politics is a huge part of it... the problem is he can't accept that it is also a huge part of the solution. Which is foolish, in EXACTLY the same way as pacifists who understand that violence is bad and therefore will not use violence to defend the innocent, as Libertarians who understand that state power corrupts and therefore do not wish to use state power to restrict immigration, as Churchians who dream of the Heaven to come when a great multitude from all nations and tongues and peoples and tribes are united and therefore consider it their duty to rebuild the Tower of Babel on Earth.

"Where do you look, when you don’t know where to look, for something that you need, desperately, but have lost? Well, each of the knights goes into the forest at the point that looks darkest to him. That’s Jungian psychoanalysis, in a nutshell: that which you fear and avoid, that which you hold in contempt, and that which disgusts you—that’s the gateway to what you need to know. Unless it involves identity politics or doesn't put Jews at the top." - Judeo-Peterson

Blogger Brick Hardslab April 30, 2018 2:39 PM  

I wonder why Peterson is reacting to this at all. I only see downsides for him no matter what he says.

Blogger John Fuerst April 30, 2018 2:44 PM  

I accidentally reversed the numbers in the following sentence: "For Israel and the US as a whole, the means and SDs were, respectively, 481 (SD 90) and 466 (SD 105)." On PISA 2012 math, Israel as a whole did worse than the US, and Israeli Jews did worse than US whites. If possible, please correct.

Regarding Peterson, it is troubling that he would apparently cherry pick IQ scores and then take his estimate either as proof or very strong evidence of nonexistent Jewish ethnic networking and, worse, belittle those who disagree. In the case of ethnic and racial differences, one typically expects: (a) estimates based on systematic reviews (b) the establishment of a lack of significant psychometric bias (c) research showing IQ differences can statistically explain outcome differences (d) research showing that IQ differences can causally explain outcome differences e.g., using longitudinal data, (e) and, finally, evidence that IQ differences are not due to some sort of unfair social privilege of the previous generations. For example, despite knowing (a) to (d) in the case of the B/W US difference, I don't rule out discrimination models. This is why we are acquiring genetic data to do a straight out admixture mapping study (to see if the association between IQ and African genetic ancestry is highest on regions associated with racial-phenotype, neural functioning, etc.).

However, I am reasonably confident in a primary human capital model, because (a) to (d) has been shown. Yet, neither I nor my colleagues criticize SJW academics for postulating and researching discrimination models. In group bias is common and normal, so ethnic networking models are a priori reasonable. Our criticism is that they try to ban alternative research programs and demonize people who disagree with them. (And also that they paint very ordinary and normal forms of in group preference and favoritism as being something abnormal and irrational.)

This is why Peterson's approach is so odd. He adopts a "race realist" argument, but then also SJW tactics and rhetoric. On some level, he must realize that the "Jewish Question" -- that is, what to do when Jewish concern about ethnic group continuity and Jewish behavior to shape host cultures and politics to support their ethnos conflicts with gentile concern for ethnic group continuity -- exposes the inhumanity of his anti-identity polemics. For were he consistent, he would have to denounce Jewish identity and identity politics. But since he can not bring himself to be so, he has to deny that Jews behave as an ethnic group. They are, for him, just high IQ gentiles with some funny habits -- not a people with a strong ethnic identity, many of whom engage in identity politics out of the reasonable concern for group survival.

Blogger szopen April 30, 2018 2:48 PM  

I must say that I was really surprised to see Fuerst here. I read humanvarieties for a long time (even back when it was called differently - when i stil was not sure whether chuck and fuerst are the same or different persona). Now it's a question of time when Kirkegaard will appear :D

That's more telling about blog influence and quality than number of visitors.

Blogger Jack Amok April 30, 2018 2:52 PM  

My working theory is Jews test like most women.

Interesting. Very interesting observation.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine April 30, 2018 2:53 PM  

"I don't write the mail, I just deliver it."

You should probably check that it's actually mail rather than air-dropped propaganda leaflets then.

Or, you know, think for a split second. That way you'd realize terribly obvious things like the part where literary capacity and verbal capacity are very different things, and even literary capacity has no relation to mathematics beyond the basic ability to scribe the characters involved if you happen to be recording your work.

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim April 30, 2018 2:53 PM  

What did Luther know?
In 1946, Julius Streicher was on trial for his life. He had published the anti-Semitic newspaper Der Stürmer, and had been captured at the end of World War II. The Allies put him on trial alongside 23 other prominent Nazis at the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg. During the trial Streicher was asked: “Witness, what aims did you pursue with your speeches and your articles in Der Stürmer?” Streicher replied:

I did not intend to agitate or inflame but to enlighten. Anti-Semitic publications have existed in Germany for centuries. . . . In the book The Jews and Their Lies, Dr. Martin Luther writes that the Jews are a serpent’s brood and one should burn down their synagogues and destroy them. Dr. Martin Luther would very probably sit in my place in the defendants’ dock today, if this book had been taken into consideration by the Prosecution.

Streicher was a propagandist who devoted his life to spreading slander and falsehood, but on this occasion he was telling the truth.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener April 30, 2018 2:54 PM  

"Or, you know, think for a split second."

That's probably bad advice under the circumstances.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener April 30, 2018 2:58 PM  

"This is why Peterson's approach is so odd. He adopts a "race realist" argument, but then also SJW tactics and rhetoric."

Peterson's approach doesn't seem odd once you understand that it's intentionally deceitful. He's attempting to appeal to the less informed and intellectually capable elements of the right and inculcate them with leftist dogma.

Blogger Jack Amok April 30, 2018 3:02 PM  

And also that they paint very ordinary and normal forms of in group preference and favoritism as being something abnormal and irrational.

Not when they do the in-group preference, they don't. That's the give-away, they loudly and uncompromisingly denounce their political opponents for behavior that wouldn't even be a blip on their own in-group preference radar. That fundamental Alinskyite behavior is why things like #MeToo end up rebounding so badly on them. From a civic standpoint, most leftist groups are dishonest participants this way.

Blogger ZW April 30, 2018 3:03 PM  

Azure Amaranthine:

Your first-principles dissection of terms misses the point. The point is: these aren't my definitions. They're terms of art. Disagree with them if you like, I don't care. You'll have trouble rebutting (or even understanding) the papers, though, if you do.

Blogger Gordon Scott April 30, 2018 3:03 PM  

szopen wrote:Now it's a question of time when Kirkegaard will appear :D


Try singing: "Like a good philosopher, Kirkegaard is there."

Blogger R Webfoot April 30, 2018 3:03 PM  

"He's attempting to appeal to the less informed and intellectually capable elements of the right and inculcate them with leftist dogma."

He's also putting together a program to create a searchable database of college courses and professors who indoctrinate with Marxist nonsense so students can be forewarned and opt-out deliberately. He is not doing so with the right-wing - but, presumably, only because such courses do not actually exist.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine April 30, 2018 3:09 PM  

"that which you fear and avoid, that which you hold in contempt, and that which disgusts you—that’s the gateway to what you need to know."

This is where Jung incites people to turn themselves into freakshows.

Granted, some things that affect fear/disgust/contempt might not with further knowledge, but most of those things are there for very good reasons. You don't throw yourself bodily into the midst of terror/aversion/contempt/abomination unless you're a fool. You start from the edges and push back the darkness. Even then, some places will never be fit to tread.

There are most definitely things man is not meant to know.

Blogger Orthodox April 30, 2018 3:19 PM  

Can someone explain the Monsanto/Peterson thing to me?

Monsanto is the "anti-Taleb". If it didn't exist, he'd have to invent it for comparative purposes because it is the exact opposite of what Taleb says is good. From top to bottom, it is the embodiment of no skin in the game, bureaucracy, bad incentives, lying and asymmetric risk/reward. He frequently mentions Monsanto alongside Saudi Arabia. If you publicly defend Monsanto or GMOs, that's probably enough for Taleb to dislike you. If you took money from them, even worse.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine April 30, 2018 3:28 PM  

"Your first-principles dissection of terms misses the point. The point is: these aren't my definitions. They're terms of art."

It doesn't matter in the slightest. Art, the purpose of which is to tell lies, is vile.

"You'll have trouble rebutting (or even understanding) the papers, though, if you do."

Appeal to authority, and better yet, authority I've already exposed, if indeed it states as you claim. If you were to say, for instance, that they were focused in the same general area of the brain, that I'd let slide. If you were to state that the two capabilities overlapped I also would not quibble. However, you went and said something absurd on its face instead.

Any fool can look at a wide variety of aptitude tests and their results, and quickly conclude that "verbal" and mathematical abilities are tested separately -- and often vary quite a bit from each other -- on the vast majority of them. This isn't even difficult.

It's cute of you trying to say, effectively "don't shoot the messenger!", but you're not employed as a messenger, and no one volunteers information they got from somewhere else unless they think it has merit. Whether you just didn't think about it, or did and thought it had deceitful merit, I neither know nor much care.

Verbal IQ does not include mathematics capability, simply stated. If it did, women would, on average, be much better at mathematics than they are, and probably better at it than average men as well, neither of which observably occur.

Blogger Orthodox April 30, 2018 3:29 PM  

My working theory is Jews test like most women.

The shortest book in the world is "Famous Jewish Marines."

The jock vs nerd trope is Jewish.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 30, 2018 3:31 PM  

But some of my best friends are Jewish Marines.

Blogger Dangeresque April 30, 2018 3:39 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Dangeresque April 30, 2018 3:42 PM  

Good to see Peterson getting rekt for this Shabbos goy shit. The cherry on top of all of this is a study recently cited by Black Pigeon Speaks in one of his videos where computer models were ran for different social methodologies (ethnocentrism, humanitarianism, selfishness, and traitorousness) and ethnocentrism came out on top with a roughly Pareto share (80-90%) of the territory over time - every time. Since their religion is literally a doctrine of ethnocentrism, I don't see how this could give Jews any advantage whatsoever... Nope. Nothing to see here.

Video starts at 2:55:

https://youtu.be/oG2ESfozdpk?t=2m55s

Blogger szopen April 30, 2018 3:45 PM  

Gordon Scott wrote:szopen wrote:Now it's a question of time when Kirkegaard will appear :D



Try singing: "Like a good philosopher, Kirkegaard is there."


I've meant Emil, the polymath who is wasting his time studying different topics because Denmark is paying people to study (or maybe he already have finished?). Unlike other eternal students, he actually is very intelligent guy with a lot of interesting ideas. He writes a lot about intelligence, race and ethnicity.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener April 30, 2018 3:48 PM  

"He's also putting together a program to create a searchable database of college courses and professors who indoctrinate with Marxist nonsense so students can be forewarned and opt-out deliberately."

I bet it's a trap and only publicly avowed Marxists make the list. If not, it would be interesting to see what infraction qualifies a professor to be considered Marxist.

Blogger Stilicho April 30, 2018 3:59 PM  

Test answers by tribe:

Hindu:
Hindu A: I don't know.
Hindu B: I don't know either.

Jewish:
Jew A: the question is invalid because x,y,z.
Jew B: he's wrong.

Dindu:

Dindu A: fuck you whitey!
Dindu B: oh snap!

Blogger Gordon Scott April 30, 2018 4:03 PM  

szopen wrote:
I've meant Emil, the polymath who is wasting his time studying different topics because Denmark is paying people to study


Sure, I considered that you meant Emil. But "philosopher" scans better than "polymath."

Blogger szopen April 30, 2018 4:12 PM  

Out of curiosity, I've googled kirkegaard and I have find out some Emil's views which I find really disturbing. So, despite his good contributions to the debate on intelligence, I do not think he would be welcomed here.

Blogger Don't Call Me Len April 30, 2018 4:30 PM  

unless you're implying that most of their physics Nobel prizes were given for rhetorical word games taking advantage of the math of others

"Hilbert said "Physics is too hard for physicists", implying that the necessary mathematics was generally beyond them; the Courant-Hilbert book made it easier for them."

Blogger tublecane April 30, 2018 5:14 PM  

@34- Is that supposed to be a point about Ali's verbal ability? Because he had his catchphrases written for him.

If it's about his strong in-group preference, okay.

Blogger John Fuerst April 30, 2018 5:33 PM  

"Out of curiosity..."
Both he and I have been defamed consequent of our research; legal action is being pursued. Regardless, Kirkegaard is a secular atheist, just a sincere one, and so would not care for the metaphysics espoused here. In contrast, I am a religious atheist, and thus a nihilist, meaning I recognize that there is something profoundly wrong with reality as I see it and am troubled by it, especially late into the night, when deep in solitude. So I not infrequently lurk on Bruce Charlton's blog and sometimes here. Peterson seemed to offer a solution, until I became more familiar with his philosophy.



Blogger Y. April 30, 2018 5:42 PM  

Ok, this is a pretty good reaction.

However, there's no reason to assume Jews in the US and in Israel are the same.

I mean, the smart, self-interested person would prefer to live in a country that's not in a danger of NBC attack, has better economic opportunities, climate and is not basically a permanent armed camp.

The less capable one would prefer to live in a country where he would belong to the majority population and has a more generous welfare system.

High-IQ people from all the world move to the US for the opportunities in education, business, science and industry. Notable example being Elon Musk, whose mental abilities are well known.

So the assumption that Ashkenazi Jews in the US and in Israel are the same is .. well unwarranted.


Anyways, you lot still have no satisfactory explanation for Jewish over-representation in the fields where you just can't fake it.

Like math or chess or physics.

That could be perhaps that Jewish average IQ is indeed lower, but the distribution is more spread out. But I don't think the numbers would work out.

Blogger Y. April 30, 2018 5:48 PM  

@56

His friends talked him out of creating that program. Anyone who's interested can kinda tell anyways.


@39

Rofl.

Everybody shit-tests you. Women shit test you by causing drama, guys by making fun out of you or taking your lunch and watching your reaction.

It's the same thing as animals fighting in a ritualistic manner. Just a way to get a clear idea on who's top and who's bottom.

Peterson writes about this "everyone shit tests" and the evolutionary reasons for it in his book. He even calls it shit testing iirc.

Blogger Y. April 30, 2018 6:00 PM  

@John Fuerst

I believe Peterson is intentionally being deceptive about this. For one, he's far too smart not to realize how things are. Way too smart.

Secondly, directly coming out and attacking Jewish hypocrisy and the insane amounts of privilege they have is a sure fire way to oblivion.

Thirdly, I believe he considers spreading his ideas that are an antidote to communist ones is of paramount importance.

He generally comes across as strongly against deception and for truth, however, it's worth remembering that his definition of truth is 'whatever works best', that is, is in the long-term interest.

We'll see what happens once he gets even more popular. Or what he says about the Harvard lawsuit, if asked. I believe he'll not condemn it and will say that merit is what matters.

On the other hand, maybe he'll never do anything overt that'd give heart to the small minded and tedious people who obsess over 'the Jews' as if they were the Devil himself and capable of infinite cruelty & cunning.

Blogger VD April 30, 2018 6:46 PM  

I am a religious atheist, and thus a nihilist, meaning I recognize that there is something profoundly wrong with reality as I see it and am troubled by it, especially late into the night, when deep in solitude.

I congratulate you on your philosophical consistency. It is all-too-rare.

However, there's no reason to assume Jews in the US and in Israel are the same.

So your new defense is that Israeli Jews are stupid. I'm sure they'll deeply appreciate your philosemitic defense of their super-smart cousins in the USA. And there is a reason. It is called "genetics".

Anyways, you lot still have no satisfactory explanation for Jewish over-representation in the fields where you just can't fake it.

Yes, Y, we do. It's called "nepotism". The pool of people who are capable of doing X is much larger than the number of people who are permitted to do so or are given awards for doing so.

Stop lying, obfuscating, and moving the goalposts. Jordan Peterson has clearly had a very negative influence on you.

He generally comes across as strongly against deception and for truth, however, it's worth remembering that his definition of truth is 'whatever works best', that is, is in the long-term interest.

You just damned the man more thoroughly than I have yet.

Blogger VD April 30, 2018 6:48 PM  

Like math or chess or physics.

You're lying again. As was already pointed out to you, Jews are no longer overrepresented at the top of any of those fields. They've already been replaced.

Blogger Bobiojimbo April 30, 2018 8:37 PM  

@3 Robert, you'll have to take that up with Peterson directly then.

Blogger bob kek mando - ( your mom always did like me best ) April 30, 2018 8:41 PM  

18. wreckage April 30, 2018 12:46 PM
It's like a people group having money, a smidge above average IQ, and a tendency to look after their own is now so outrageous an idea that admitting it to be the case is tantamount to declaring them evil.



there's a reason for this, and it's related to the way Peterson uses psychological concepts to define things. and the fact that he's terrified of having to hold his definition up against the ((( Eskimos ))). i'm going to have a write a blog post about that.


24. Matthew April 30, 2018 1:28 PM
Has Peterson ever talked or written about the problems of usury?



hell, you can't get an ECONOMIST to talk about the problems of Usury. Peterson ( who thinks a Socialist Worker's Party is "Right Wing" ) would be completely out to lunch on the subjects of money and banking.


so far as Greg Cochran is concerned, i believe the problem is that i refuted his assertion of Jewish collegiate achievement by pointing out the example of Noel Ignatiev going to Harvard.

that's when everything i posted started getting deleted without comment.

because everybody on the damn planet knows that if it was a Honky running around demanding the genocide of ANY "X", he'd be out on his ass tenure or no. where Ignatiev got admitted to Harvard, became a professor and taught classes there and everybody was just hunky dory with it.

ie - as a practical matter, there is NO intellectual crime which a Jew can commit which would exclude them from any venue. Ignatiev is simply one of the most egregious examples. and what is Ignatiev's "crime"? he has the same opinion of the Goyim that Jonah did.

Blogger Bobiojimbo April 30, 2018 8:42 PM  

@markstoval "Can the Jews in Israel talk about their IQ gap?"

Probably not, or else, I would think, the whole JQ would be a non-issue.

Blogger Cary April 30, 2018 8:50 PM  

I happened to stumble across this short clip of Peterson tonight that I think was from right after he published his original response. Interesting to see how emotional he is and humorous as he lectures those who don't understand statistics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQHH6o9ual8

Blogger rumpole5 April 30, 2018 10:05 PM  

My question is this: Do Jews dominate the percentages of the very high IQ (160+) scorers? The number of folks in that group is so small that even if most or all of 160+ IQ ers were Jewish, it might not affect the MEDIAN average IQ scores of white subects vs Jewish subjects.

Am I wrong? I read sonmewhere that only 6 persons scored that high on IQ testing in the entire metro New York area.

Blogger John Fuerst April 30, 2018 10:19 PM  

"So the assumption that Ashkenazi Jews in the US..."

We are willing to fund a formal, systematic review of the literature. If you can locate a couple of grad students who are reliable and familiar with e.g., PRISMA and who are up to the task, let us know.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd April 30, 2018 11:06 PM  

rumpole5 wrote:My question is this: Do Jews dominate the percentages of the very high IQ (160+) scorers?
...
Am I wrong? I read somewhere that only 6 persons scored that high on IQ testing in the entire metro New York area.


There are around five or six million in NYC, right? That would make +4SD about one in a million?

Fourmilab says that +4SD is closer to 3 in 100,000. There should have been about 180, not six. One in a million is closer to +5SD.

https://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/experiments/analysis/zCalc.html

Blogger Jack Amok April 30, 2018 11:29 PM  

Fourmilab says that +4SD is closer to 3 in 100,000. There should have been about 180, not six.

You're assuming the 5 or 6 million New Yorkers have an average IQ of 100. Might be something wrong with that assumption.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd May 01, 2018 12:06 AM  

Jack Amok wrote:You're assuming the 5 or 6 million New Yorkers have an average IQ of 100. Might be something wrong with that assumption.

That's a very reasonable quibble. NYC's average IQ would have to be about 85 to make that one in a million number come true. It's all bai zuo liberals and the savage, dusky hordes, so maybe that's right.

Blogger tublecane May 01, 2018 12:22 AM  

@66- "Yes, Y, we do. It's called 'nepotism.' The pool of people who are capable of doing X is much larger than the number of people who are permitted to do so or are given awards for doing so."

I must compile a master list of unrecognized great gentiles in fields of Jewish overrepresentation.* Not to argue they're superior, but just to bolster the case that there are always a whole lot more people deserving of recognition than get it. And to cast doubt on whether Jews truly deserve all the recognition they get.

*Art, entertainment, and science especially, but everywhere.

Blogger Jack Amok May 01, 2018 12:56 AM  

NYC's average IQ would have to be about 85 to make that one in a million number come true.

Considering how much they all say they love the place, maybe 85 is about right, at least after dropping a few points for all the pollution and noise.

Blogger Rabid Ratel May 01, 2018 4:36 AM  

Jack Amok wrote:Considering how much they all say they love the place, maybe 85 is about right, at least after dropping a few points for all the pollution and noise.

Don't forget all the medicine they are consuming. Psychotropic drugs will lower your IQ as well.

Blogger MJimmy May 01, 2018 4:59 AM  

My working theory is Jews test like most women.

By way of deception thou shalt do war -- Motto of the Mossad

Blogger wreckage May 01, 2018 8:50 AM  

@22 Quite so; but it is the final step, of demonizing the host, that makes it immoral. The entire relationship is riddled with pathology.

Blogger szopen May 01, 2018 9:21 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger TM Lutas May 01, 2018 10:10 AM  

@56 You're free to find, submit, and list the marxist courses that Petersen rejects from his database.

That's the funny thing about Internet databases. Once the data is out there, control is lost. For example, Mother Jones maintains a list of mass shootings. It's actually a pretty good list that dates back to 1982. I pulled a copy in a few minutes and now I can take that information and use it better than they ever will and they can't stop me.

Petersen couldn't stop you either even if he would actually want to which I regard as a fact not actually in the record at this point.

Blogger Dirk Manly May 01, 2018 10:25 AM  

"Secretly (for some definition of secretly) looking after your own while denouncing your hosts as the worst evildoers in history if they ever dare look after their own is definitely a major moral failing.

Whatever it is, it damned sure isn't a tikkun.

Blogger Dirk Manly May 01, 2018 10:28 AM  

@12

"Verbal IQ includes mathematics ability. The other major area of IQ is visio-spatial."

The basis of mathematics is Counting Objects, and the Number Line.

The very ROOTS of the field is visio-spatial.

Blogger Dirk Manly May 01, 2018 6:46 PM  

"Can someone explain the Monsanto/Peterson thing to me?"

Even back in the 1980's when I was a student at Purdue, Monsanto was producing (as their ONLY available varieties), corn seed which produced sterile plants. In other words, you're a farmer, and you bought Monsanto seed, you COULD NOT keep any of your crop as seed for the next year, because the seed on the cob literally will not germinate if you plant it (no matter what you do to it).

Blogger Dirk Manly May 01, 2018 6:51 PM  

@52

"The shortest book in the world is "Famous Jewish Marines."

The jock vs nerd trope is Jewish."

Likewise, so is the "dumb blonde" trope.(*) The dark-haired, brown-eyed tribe absolutely ABHORS blonde hair, blue yes, and especially blonde hair with blue eyes.


(*) which never appeared in movies until after WW2. Three guesess why that *itch (((Lerner))) demands that SWEDEN accept half of Africa and the Arab world within its borders.

Blogger Dirk Manly May 01, 2018 7:20 PM  

@69

"so far as Greg Cochran is concerned, i believe the problem is that i refuted his assertion of Jewish collegiate achievement by pointing out the example of Noel Ignatiev going to Harvard"

For those who don't know... from IG:

Noel Ignatiev (born 1940) is an author and historian. He is best known for his work on race and social class and for his call to abolish "whiteness". Ignatiev is the co-founder and co-editor of the journal //Race Traitor// and the //New Abolitionist Society//, a journal that promotes the idea that "treason to whiteness is loyalty to humanity".[2] He also has written a book on antebellum northern xenophobia against Irish immigrants, //How the Irish Became White.// His publisher bills him as "one of America's leading and most controversial historians".


Early life and career
Ignatiev, the son of Jewish immigrants from Russia, was raised in Philadelphia.


(((Every)))
(((single)))
(((time))).

Blogger wreckage May 02, 2018 8:57 PM  

=="treason to whiteness is loyalty to humanity"
==Ignatiev, the son of Jewish immigrants from Russia

As usual, the hate-ravaged mind can't tell the difference between Germans and Anglos.

Blogger wreckage May 02, 2018 9:00 PM  

@86, they actually did that due to pressure to ensure the GMO corn couldn't go wild. Then they bowed to pressure to stop it, then the GMO corn went wild - to a limited extent - and now is contaminating the South American ancestral and landrace maize genetics.

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