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Thursday, April 26, 2018

The myth of Jordan Peterson's integrity


yclepedbobali observes that Jordan Peterson not only cannot answer my critique in a for summarized by someone else, he is downright afraid of his readers encountering it and exposing his posturing on a subject he refuses to honestly address.
I'm a midwit, at very best. Just synthesising your arguments, with a little embellishment, blew his grand 'arithmetic triumph over the bucko Nazgul' into a million tiny leaves on the Canadian breeze.

He can publicise and flaunt his flawless victory over the lead comment, so 'representative' of the apparent poor intellectual stock of right wing thugs. Just another conspiracy theorist helpless before the isolate and trinity of that 'irrefutable' average IQ of 115, the bell curve tail distribution, and openness to experience and liberalism. But he knows, and he knows we know.

I see why no one debates you. Even a midwit like me becomes something formidable armed with your mental tools and pugilist approach.
Here is my articulated critique of Jordan Peterson's argument. First, I suggest reading Jordan Peterson's actual argument in full: "On the so-called Jewish Question" as well as his subsequent response to a critic who did a reasonable job of showing how Peterson's argument did not hold up given the population demographics. I linked to the archive as well as to his site because I anticipate Peterson will memory-hole it once he realizes how hapless and dishonest it makes him look to an unbiased reader. His argument is summarized as follows:
  1. One requires a victim and a perpetrator in order to play identity politics.
  2. The Far Right has chosen European culture as a victim due to its unrecognized resentment and cowardly and incompetent failure to deal with the world forthrightly, and have incorrectly selected the Jews as perpetrator due to Jewish overrepresentation in positions of authority, competence and influence. 
  3. Jewish people are overrepresented in positions of competence and authority because, as a group, they have a higher mean IQ.
  4. Jews have a mean IQ of 115.
  5. "40.8% of the 145+ IQ population is Jewish."
  6. "There is no evidence whatsoever that Ashkenazi Jews are over-represented in any occupations/interests for reasons other than intelligence and the associated effects of intelligence on personality and political belief. Thus, no conspiratorial claims based on ethnic identity need to be given credence."
Peterson's argument is not merely incorrect, literally every single aspect of it is false. It is so resolutely and demonstrably false that it is not possible for Jordan Peterson to have constructed it in innocence by mistake. In my opinion, it clearly represents a purposeful intent to deceive his audience and falsely accuse those he labels "the far right". My responses to those six points, with the numbers updated to reflect the most recent population demographics.
  1. One does not require a victim or a perpetrator in order to play identity politics. One does not need to be aware of identity politics or even to believe they exist to find oneself engulfed in them. To quote Lee Kwan Yew, “In multiracial societies, you don’t vote in accordance with your economic interests and social interests, you vote in accordance with race and religion.” All a society requires is multiracial, multiethnic, or multireligious components and identity politics will inevitably appear once the minority populations become sufficiently numerous or influential.
  2. European culture and the European nations are observably victims of mass immigration. This is a fact that is no more disputable than the fact that the indigenous American populations were victims of mass immigration in the 16th and 17th centuries and Asian populations were victims of colonization and imperialism in the 18th and 19th centuries. The perpetrators are, by definition, the immigrants, as well as those who worked to alter the various laws to permit the immigrants entry.
  3. Jews are not overrepresented in positions of competence and authority because, as a group, they have a higher mean IQ, because a) IQs over 145 do not tend to help, but rather tend to hinder, an individual's ability to attain such positions, and b) their higher mean IQ is not high enough to compensate for their much smaller population.
  4. Jews do not have an average mean IQ of 115. Globally, they have an average mean IQ that is a maximum of 103.2. In the US, where the percentage of high-IQ Ashkenazim is higher, they have a maximum average mean IQ of 105.1.
  5. Less than 4 percent of the 145+ IQ population in the USA is Jewish.
  6. Thus, conspiratorial claims based on ethnic identity remain a valid potential explanation for Jewish overrepresentation in positions of competence and authority. Jordan Peterson is at best an inept intellectual disputant, and at worst an intentional deceiver.
Now I will proceed to prove responses 3, 4, and 5 in detail. Response 6 follows naturally from them.

On point 3.

There is a linear relationship between intelligence and effective leadership, but only up to 120 IQ. This association reverses at IQ 120. This is primarily due to the IQ communication gap which prevents effective communication across 2 standard deviations (30 IQ points) of intelligence. This negative effect of high IQ is further compounded by the statistical exclusion of the cognitive elite from intellectually elite professions.

The probability of entering and remaining in an intellectually elite profession such as Physician, Judge, Professor, Scientist, Corporate Executive, etc. increases with IQ to about 133. It then falls about 1/3 by 140. By 150 IQ the probability has fallen by 97%! In other words, a significant percentage of people with IQs over 140 are being systematically and, most likely inappropriately, excluded from the population that addresses the biggest problems of our time or who are responsible for assuring the efficient operation of social, scientific, political and economic institutions.

Jordan Peterson's explanation for Jewish success is not only wrong, but, ironically, even if it had been factually based his argument would have proven precisely the opposite of that which he was attempting to demonstrate. The fact that Jews are overrepresented in positions of competence and authority is actually conclusive statistical evidence that their average mean IQ cannot be uniquely and extraordinarily high.

On point 4

The primary and oft-cited source of the "115 mean IQ" claim is the 1957 study by Boris Levinson entitled "The Intelligence of Applicants for Admission to Jewish Day Schools" published in Jewish Social Studies,Vol. 19, No. 3/4 (Jul. - Oct., 1957), pp. 129-140.

In the study, which reported a 114.88 mean IQ for the 2083 very young students sampled, the author duly noted its intrinsic limitations.

"This study is limited to applicants for Day Schools adhering to the principles of the National Commission for Yeshiva Education. This sampling does not claim to represent the entire Jewish school population or even those children attending yeshiva Day Schools with a different educational emphasis."

The 114.88 mean IQ did not represent the entire U.S. Jewish population in 1956 and therefore cannot possibly represent the entire U.S. Jewish population 61 years later. Furthermore, even if it did correctly represent the entire Jewish Ashkenazi population in the USA then, it would not do so now, due to the fact that what used to be a relatively pure Ashkenazi population is now 44 percent genetically adulterated by the mainstream population due to intermarriage. The current US population of 5,425,000 Jews is now made up of the following genetic groups:
  • 51.6 Ashkenazi
  • 40.6 Half-Ashkenazi, Half-European (Which really means three-quarters European ancestry.)
  • 07.8 Sephardic, Mizrahi, and other backgrounds
Remember, it's not the ethnic identity that magically conveys intelligence on an individual, intelligence is primarily a consequence of the individual's genetic ancestry. Even if individuals in the second category consider themselves to be every bit as Jewish as their immigrant Jewish grandparents in a cultural, ethnic, or religious sense, it is not true from a genetic perspective and the studies on mean Ashkenazi IQ therefore cannot apply to them. I suspect that this is an unintentional focus on identity instead of genetics on Peterson's part, (an ironic one, given his attack on identity politics), and it is a mistake that he makes it twice. Now, given that the 107.5 mean Ashkenazi IQ given by Lynn is at least possibly correct (unlike the false 115 claim which cannot be) and the 102 mean IQ for white Americans, we can reasonably estimate the Half-Ashkenazi mean IQ to be halfway between the two population groups, or 104.8.

Since the non-Ashkenazi Jewish mean IQ is somewhere between 84.2 (if A-IQ=115) and 91 (if A-IQ=107.5) given the reported average IQ of Israel being 95, this means that the maximum mean IQ of the U.S. Jewish population is 105.1, 3.1 points higher than the mean White IQ of 102 but below the reported mean East Asian-American IQ of 106.

On point 5

Peterson's claim that 40.8 percent of the 145+ IQ population in the USA is Jewish is not merely wrong, it is off by more than an order of magnitude! First, he omits the Asian and Black populations, second, he exaggerates the US Jewish population by 10 percent and fails to account for the fact that 48.4 percent of that population is either part-Ashkenazi or non-Ashkenazi, and third, he again makes the mistake of relying upon identity rather than genetics for the White population. Use of the White, Non-Hispanic population is not correct here, because the White Hispanic population is defined as being genetically white and therefore cannot be excluded from the relevant White population numbers.

With a mean IQ of 105.1 and a population of 5,425,000, the standard distribution curve indicates 21,158 Jews with 145+ IQs in the United States. In addition to this, the mean IQ of 102 for the White population of 246,660,710 indicates 517,987 Whites with 145+ IQs, plus another 31,913 equally high-IQ Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans resident in the United States.

Jews therefore account for 3.7 percent of the 145+ IQ set in the United States, not 40.8 percent of it. Jordan Peterson was off by more than an order of magnitude, his argument is completely incorrect, and his public charges of cowardice and "incompetent failure to deal with the world forthrightly" appear to be emotional projections of Peterson's own cowardice and incompetent failure.

On point 6

I do not know Jordan Peterson, but his incorrect and deceitful arguments and his unfair, unjustified attacks on his critics show him to be an inept and integrity-challenged coward who lacks commitment to the truth. The combination of his sudden success with his observable intellectual ineptitude suggests that he has been elevated by the mainstream media in order to provide a harmless, toothless, and non-Christian alternative to the failed conservative movement of William F. Buckley and the failed neoconservative movement of Bill Kristol and Ben Shapiro.

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236 Comments:

1 – 200 of 236 Newer› Newest»
Blogger weka April 26, 2018 6:03 AM  

I live the leadership decline. Son that is brighter than me -- way brighter -- struggles while the other son and stepson who are bright as me and a good midwit do much better.

And I'm quite aware that most of the colleagues I have think I'm weird. Competent, but weird.

Blogger insight April 26, 2018 6:11 AM  

Another leftard controlled opposition/strawman exposed by Vox.

Blogger Lovekraft April 26, 2018 6:12 AM  

I don't think it's a bad thing that, with the fall of marxism, there will be more discussion about boundaries, respect for other opinions, rather than the drivel about tolerance and openness that mean giving up your own sovereignty.

When these kumbaya voices diminish, will we actually see a better society?

Blogger OGRE April 26, 2018 6:35 AM  

...he has been elevated by the mainstream media in order to provide a harmless, toothless, and non-Christian alternative to the failed conservative movement...

Thats a reasonable inference, but he's a little too dangerous to the mainstream narrative. If anything he'll be set up to be destroyed rather than propped up as an acceptable anti-thesis to the leftist thesis (a la Kristol). They don't want him on a leash...they want him crucified and his head on a spike as a warning to others.

Peterson's biggest failing is in refusing to allow himself to admit the ultimate truth of a Creator God. He has all the pieces laid out before him, but he won't put them together the way they are designed to fit. I can't tell if its personal hubris or a desire to fit in or some other reason why he won't believe, but as long as he can delude himself on that, well then he can bring himself to believe any other proposition as well.

OpenID markstoval April 26, 2018 6:48 AM  

That was a very well executed take-down by Vox Day. A blow for truth as it were.

I don't really understand the motive of Mr. Peterson other than, perhaps, he is trying to hid the in-group tribalism of the Jews. Why would that be so important?

Blogger The Kurgan April 26, 2018 7:19 AM  

It’s astonishing how one can sense these things.
Until now I couldn’t really pay enough attention to him to dissect any of his arguments and they seemed to generally fire left, so.... I waited.
But instinctively, there was just something about the guy I found somewhat “off”.
And now I know why.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 7:23 AM  

It’s astonishing how one can sense these things. Until now I couldn’t really pay enough attention to him to dissect any of his arguments and they seemed to generally fire left, so.... I waited. But instinctively, there was just something about the guy I found somewhat “off”.

Same here. I almost never referred to him, except as a model of a successful video channel, for precisely that reason.

Blogger urbino April 26, 2018 7:24 AM  

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Blogger WarKicker April 26, 2018 7:35 AM  

Brilliant Vox. I love how you take an argument that seems intuitively to favor a certain position only to expose it as being contrary to the point it was meant to make. Reminds me of the takedown of the "irrefutable logic" of the new atheists in TIA.

Blogger Miguel April 26, 2018 7:41 AM  

Perfect.

As long as you keep Christ out of the picture, the ruling class may tolerate your right-wingness.

When you go all Deus Vult/Retake Constantinopla right-winger, tbey get scared and nervous.

Blogger Johnny April 26, 2018 7:44 AM  

My take on Peterson is that he is stuck in between. Not bunk enough to be good propaganda, and not really dialectic either.

The usual rhetorical method is to divide people into good and evil. It can be overt, but when well done the rest of the piece will be a distraction, encouraging the reader to be on the "good" side without being self consciously being aware of having made that choice. This thing just sort of wanders around.

Blogger Booch Paradise April 26, 2018 7:45 AM  

I don't really understand the motive of Mr. Peterson
Mister Metokur's video may answer your question. Short answer: money.

Blogger liam barrett April 26, 2018 7:47 AM  

Soo happy Vox exists.

Blogger urbino April 26, 2018 7:59 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira April 26, 2018 8:01 AM  

He sounds exactly like what yoy would expect of an "intellectual" living in Toronto.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) April 26, 2018 8:01 AM  

Use of the White, Non-Hispanic population is not correct here, because the White Hispanic population is defined as being genetically white and therefore cannot be excluded from the relevant White population numbers.

Do White Hispanics have the same IQ as White Non Hispanics?

Blogger Uncle John's Band April 26, 2018 8:07 AM  

Peterson is a fine example of why academia can’t be reformed from within. He belongs to a class of smarter academics who can see the problems with Postmodernism and the accompanying cultural drift, but is too embedded in the status quo to ask the real questions. Bloom is actually a good comparison. I doubt he was tapped at the outset like Shapiro. More likely, he started posting lectures to counter what he saw as a destructive force, then blew up. He probably can’t conceive of “success” outside of traditional institutional channels like big media, so now, as a “public intellectual” he dances for cash. To keep with the Canadian theme, call it the Malcolm Gladwell path. Note how he cites the number of hours of practice without discussing the outcomes.

There are also issues specific to him. His authority comes from an academic chair and clinical psychological practice, two of the most converged fields in existence, which compromises him intellectually from the start. Psychology is the epistemological basis? Seriously? Is is really necessary to explore the history of truth claims in the social sciences? How can someone like that begin to engage the JQ? Then there is Toronto, which is the only place in Canada with a Jewish community with the clout they have in a place like New York. He makes a lot of money; it is not hard to believe that there is pressure on him not only to avoid the question, but to take the stand he did. Tenure can’t protect against everything either.

I haven’t paid much attention to him before, but I will now.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 26, 2018 8:10 AM  

Why wouldn't Jewish identity be worth something? It seems worth cultivating if it makes you an automatic midwit at least smart enough to balance your own bank accounts.

But does Jewish identity exist in a vacuum? No of course not, but Peterson places it there.

IMO the Jewish people if they wish to remain under the radar at times are lucky as hell to have the JQ conspiracy obsessives, IMO you could not find a more incurious group than conspiracy theorists, too smart to ask questions.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 8:13 AM  

Do White Hispanics have the same IQ as White Non Hispanics?

We don't know. Anecdotally, yes, as I can testify from my own observation of my extended family. In fact, if I was not Native American, I would fall into the White Hispanic category myself. Remember, the Mexican upper class is extremely white.

Blogger Rocklea Marina April 26, 2018 8:14 AM  

"because the White Hispanic population is defined as being genetically white"

Statistically, as represented in the US, I presume.

Josh wrote:

"Do White Hispanics have the same IQ as White Non Hispanics?"

So the answer is no, though I'm sure others have noted here, I think Vox actually had a post on it, that the politicians of Hispanic countries tend to be whiter than their average populations.

Blogger George Builder April 26, 2018 8:16 AM  

Vox, you mention above that...

"Since the non-Ashkenazi Jewish mean IQ can be no higher than 90.5 given the reported average IQ of Israel being 95..."

I believe that as of 2012, Israel's population was 17.5% Arab (1.4 Million out of 8 million).

I'm not certain what the mean IQ is for Arabs. Apparently, the bulk of the Arabs in Israel are Bedouins.

Would this impact the numbers you've listed above, or is the Arab population within Israel negligable?

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 8:20 AM  

Would this impact the numbers you've listed above, or is the Arab population within Israel negligable?

No, I already took the Israeli Arab population into account by assigning them an average IQ of 84, same as Jordan, the Arab population to which they are most closely related.

Blogger Samuel Nock April 26, 2018 8:27 AM  

Not only has the Jews’ IQ been exaggereted, so has Jordan Peterson’s.

Jordan Peterson BTFOed.

Blogger Paul Sacramento April 26, 2018 8:39 AM  

He is spreading himself to thin and giving opinions on subject matter that he is not as well informed as he should be.

Blogger Unknown April 26, 2018 8:45 AM  

I'm not your biggest fan, Vox Day, but this was really, really good. An extremely well presented logical summary.

Ron Unz - a Jew - has come to the same conclusion, and has included a few points you might want to incorporate into future versions of this.

1) recent collapse of high level Jewish academic achievement

3) Jewish incomes only overtook whites relatively late, after ww two

4) IQ tests show that Jewish IQ was comparable to whites till relatively late, I believe after ww 2 (could be wrong about exact date)

3) While IQ has a substantial heeirable component, Unz and others have convingly argued that it is partially affected by things like motivation and work ethic (persistence in problem solving), which are in turn affected by things like immigrant striver ambition, and white demoralization and anomie after ww2

4) IQ is also partially affected by urbanization - many whites are rural

I believe his articles contain many more useful points you may wish to incorporate into your very good summary in the future...

Blogger OGRE April 26, 2018 8:53 AM  

Paul Sacramento wrote:He is spreading himself to thin and giving opinions on subject matter that he is not as well informed as he should be.


Yup. He's the Neil Degrasse Tyson of psychology.

Blogger Some Guy April 26, 2018 8:54 AM  

"Jordan Peterson is at best an inept intellectual disputant, and at worst an intentional deceiver."

Vox, I'm not arguing your position here, just talking about the man and what he has produced. There are numerous times he has openly admitted that a question that was asked of him has pushed him to the limits of his intellectual capacity. He doesn't think he is the smartest person and that is a demonstrable fact. Secondly, I think he genuinely wants to help young people get past their issues. I have taken his self-authoring program and found it be very useful for helping you find direction in life. In fact, it's what convinced me to stop video games completely and stop wasting my time until I have an actual excess of time. I do honestly believe that he is just speaking out of his depth. He is a leftist and he isn't a Christian in any sense that I could reasonably justify. However, he does come across as a fair individual who does encourage honest discussion of issues that most leftists hate. For that, I'm willing to give him a pass on the fact that he genuinely doesn't understand how Jews actually work in most societies that they supplant. The one good thing that I think he truly brings to the table is an ability to publicly challenge far left idiocy. In that, I consider him at least a neutral third part, if not someone that could be an ally.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 8:55 AM  

I believe his articles contain many more useful points you may wish to incorporate into your very good summary in the future.

I know Ron and we've exchanged email in the past. I have great respect for what he's doing, but that being said, he tends to paint in broader strokes that leave the opposition more wiggle room than I like to permit. That's why I don't tend to directly cite him as a source, but rather, use his work as a starting point for my own research.

Blogger pyrrhus April 26, 2018 8:56 AM  

The really weird thing, having worked in a Jewish dominated law firm for awhile, is how anyone can deny the ethnocentrism of Ashkenazi Jews, even when it's not in their interest. Complete hacks with strong ethnic-political connections were brought into that firm, in some cases over the opposition of even Jewish partners, and ultimately sunk it...I had left, along with many of the younger lawyers, well before that.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 8:58 AM  

I do honestly believe that he is just speaking out of his depth.

I don't. The argument is too relentlessly wrong from beginning to end. Now, I admit that it is possible that he will contact me after someone apprises him of this critique and offer to discuss the subject with me, which would be the intellectually honest thing for him to do.

Let's just say I am not holding my breath.

Blogger Nakota Publishing April 26, 2018 9:14 AM  

I think Peterson is doing his best to promote the truth as he sees it, and despite his attacks on the Alt-Right, he is helping millions of young men become more comfortable with its precepts.

Blogger ikacer April 26, 2018 9:15 AM  

I can't figure out how Peterson got his number. Even if used 100 IQ for whites, 115 for Jews, mistakenly assumed all Jews are Ashkenazi, and mistakenly assumed that none of the hispanic population is white, and mistakenly assumed that ZERO percent of the non-white non-Jewish population has an IQ above 145, it still is just under 38% and I can't think of any other errors that could be made that would inflate it further.

Using VD's assumptions, white IQ 102, Jewish IQ 105.3, ~5 million Ashkenazi, ~210 million whites, then whites outnumber Jews 21.4 to 1 in the above 145 population and 17.4 to 1 in the above 160 population. I don't give it as a percentage of the total population like Peterson does because I don't want to bother calculating in all the non-whites.

If anyone wants to play around with the numbers using different assumptions, here is Python code for calculating it, loc is mean IQ, scale is standard deviation, and population is on the right:

from scipy.stats import norm
sfw = lambda x: norm.sf(x, loc=100, scale=15) * 197e6
sfj = lambda x: norm.sf(x, loc=115, scale=15) * 6.8e6
print(sfj(145)/(sfj(145)+sfw(145)))
print(sfw(145)/sfj(145))
print(sfw(160)/sfj(160))

Blogger David Power April 26, 2018 9:16 AM  

Sure he has a massive blind spot when it comes to the ((JQ)) but hell, you have a few blind spots of your own.

Not least of which being your penchant for throwing babies out with the bath water.

He's opened the debate and that's no mean feat. And unlike you, he, like Milo, Trump, Fararge, Tommy Robinson etc., has put his personal safety on the line to do so.


Blogger ikacer April 26, 2018 9:22 AM  

I didn't read VDs numbers carefully enough and used my own assumptions on population. VDs numbers say whites outnumber Jews 23.2:1 and 18.9:1 in the 145 and 160 iq populations.

BTW VD I think your population assumptions are wrong. Only a fraction of the hispanic population is white.

Blogger Redpill Angel April 26, 2018 9:25 AM  

A lot of what he's said about transgenderism has been very good, but he's still a college professor and was going to have to backtrack, even with his tenure. Sometimes he seems to be wrapping little bits of truth in bacon, or maybe tofu, and dancing around things, and finally the JQ caught up with him. He may even have been pressured, who knows. And he still really sets off some people. A "libertarian" artist acquaintance recently posted an hilarious pearl-clutching screed on Peterson on FB, basically describing him as the darling of the alt right and literally Hitler.

Blogger Solaire Of Astora April 26, 2018 9:28 AM  

I think Peterson's success is due to striking a chord with the atheist 'I wish I could go to church but can't bring myself to believe in the bible' demographic. I watched his rise in popularity online as it happened and I'm pretty sure it was organic and the media definitely ignored him early on.

Peterson has a good message overall but he has always had noticeable problems with rigorous thinking and this current debate is no exception. His interpretations of the bible are not verifiable, you can't even falsify them against the scripture, you just have to accept his psychoanalysis because it sounds reasonable. I wouldn't criticize this approach but for the fact that he presents his interpretations with more confidence than he should.

Peterson has intimated before that he might actually believe in the resurrection, in a literal sense, but he keeps it quiet to retain credibility with his core audience. So he's been straddling the line of being evasive if not outright dishonest for a while now. It's not a shock he'd sacrifice a bit of integrity to keep his image looking clean. I remember thinking that if someone really did follow Peterson's rule to never lie Peterson himself probably wouldn't like that person very much.

Blogger Solaire Of Astora April 26, 2018 9:32 AM  

I forgot to mention this but Peterson has stated in one of his Q&A videos that his IQ was tested to be in the high 150s, so his argument here isn't a result of being incapable. My guess is this is a consequence of his usual sloppiness combined with his desire to look reasonable converging.

Blogger Avalanche April 26, 2018 9:33 AM  

I've listened to many hours of Peterson; his commitment to both actively fighting the socialist menace and directly helping young men is real and heartfelt (and pretty damned effective! I've been half-heartedly gathering up his ... idiocies ... but thinking, since he gets 2,500+ letters a month -- which means he cannot possibly read them all, that writing him with corrections would be futile. (He has a team: e.g. his dad handles reading and sorting his twitter or social media stuff.) So, I have been half-planning to pull together his idiocies; answer them with refs; and then actually print a BOOK to send him -- which, I think might actually get his attention. (Whether he would READ a "debunking some of your ideas" or "where Jordan Peterson is wrong!" book is unknown).

Example; the main one that galls me is the "white supremacists" in Charlottesville. He always calls them that. He disparages the torch-lit parade of young White men... yet he deeply and furiously supports his "First Nation" ('native Canadian') friend for HIS connection to HIS history and (although Peterson does NOT phrase it this way:) his friends RACIAL connection to his people and his people's history!

One of Peterson's important rules is: "Tell the truth or at least don't lie." Okay, the torch-lit march in C-ville was MOSTLY young American men who object to the socialist/marxists destroying THEIR heritage, pulling down statues to THEIR forebears, wiping out THEIR history! Yet, Peterson wishes to protect his Indian friend's history.

For Peterson to call them -- and KEEP calling them -- white supremacists and Nazi's is absolutely lying. It is using the left's SLURS against our people -- yet he absolutely blew a gasket against some idiot -journo who insulted his First Nation friend.

He objects to identity politics -- and crows about "pulling young men back" from "going into the Alt Right"; about giving them a different path away from identity politics. (He doesn't seem to notice he is NOT having such "success" with leftie young men!) He's liberal and seemingly libertarian -- and SOMETIMES gives the idea that he does see that those positions cannot work in a multiculti society... but then he falls back on "everyone is an individual."

Now, I have huge sympathy for him -- he really is threading a knife's edge -- the whole of Canada (it seems; certainly the whole administrative, legislative, and governing bodies) have aligned to fight him. He is striking as huge chord with young men, and giving them hugely useful advice – he IS rescuing them from the pit of despair the left has forced them into. (So, BRAVO to him!) And, with his severe autoimmune problems, albeit he says he's much better now -- his diet consists of "meat-and-greens" – he's fighting many battles at once.

Blogger Avalanche April 26, 2018 9:33 AM  

(continued:)
I think many here have missed that he is deeply Christian. He does (and has posted) many lectures on the Bible, he disagrees with atheists, and is grounded in Christianity. He may view it from a stance some here would not like or support -- but he seems (granted, to me: a cultural Christian) to be very very sincere in his Christianity.

So, I agree -- he's really stupid about the jews -- he’s ALSO barely keeping his balance in this tsunami that he is trying to surf of publicity, of hate and love, and support and legal threats. (The govt DOES want to jail him!) I agree completely with our Dark Lord that Peterson should absolutely keep his trap SHUT about the jews and the 'evil' of the holyhoax. He HAS read very deeply on it -- but he has read only the 'tales' (the FICTION) of the victors! -- and taken it as (ha.) gospel.


I recommend highly his interview with neurologist Richard Haier: "The Neuroscience of Intelligence: Dr. Richard Haier" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY4sShDt9to It's like -- he has, he KNOWS, the underpinnings and necessity of intelligence -- and the essential uselessness of low-IQ folks in a modern high-tech civilization. And yet he has not yet gone BEYOND that to: importing low IQ folks destroys that (our) civilization.

I have hope for him. I don't know if it's warranted; but he is BASICALLY an honest man with (great, huge, gaping) holes in his knowledge, who is trying to help as many people as he can (and is, truly, having great success rescuing young White men!). So, he's a "doctor" treating an "emergency situation" for OUR young men -- but not able to see through to the CHRONIC dis-ease they are having forced on them. You stop the bleeding before addressing the chronic 'illness' --let HIM rescue the men from hopelessness, and then WE can step in and work to bring them to (Alt Right!) health!

Blogger Johnny April 26, 2018 9:37 AM  

"Do White Hispanics have the same IQ as White Non Hispanics?"

If they are pure European one would expect them to be typical of the home population, mainly Spain. I would imagine many "white" Hispanics carry some of the native genetics.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 9:38 AM  

Sure he has a massive blind spot when it comes to the ((JQ)) but hell, you have a few blind spots of your own.

No, I don't. You're simply too stupid to grasp that I have an intellectual standard to which I hold myself and others.

He's opened the debate and that's no mean feat. And unlike you, he, like Milo, Trump, Fararge, Tommy Robinson etc., has put his personal safety on the line to do so.

Bullshit. He didn't open any debate. It has existed for decades. And I've received literally hundreds of death threats since 2001. Not dozens, HUNDREDS, plural. Has Peterson ever been personally targeted by CAIR? I have. Has Peterson ever faced assassination attempts? Trump and Farage both have.

BTW VD I think your population assumptions are wrong. Only a fraction of the hispanic population is white.

Your level of knowledge is not even up to Wikipedia standard.

White Americans (including White Hispanics) constitute the majority, with a total of about 246,660,710, or 77.35% of the population as of 2014. Non-Hispanic whites totaled about 197,870,516, or 62.06% of the U.S. population.

Blogger Avalanche April 26, 2018 9:40 AM  

@12 "I don't really understand the motive of Mr. Peterson
Mister Metokur's video may answer your question. Short answer: money."

Aw come on!

So, back 20 years ago, (as an unknown Harvard prof) when he BEGAN posting his lecture vids on line he was scheming that "some day" -- after "someone" he did not know was going to invent a "system" he had not envisioned (Patreon) -- so he could strike a HUGE nerve amongst our rootless and directionless young men and be able to HELP them help themselves, ALLLLLLL so he could get money to support him as he destroyed his career by speaking out against a stupid marxist law he could NOT have imagined Canada would be stupid enough to try to pass?! (I suppose next you're going to suggest he plotted with Cathy Newman to make a world-wide viral video?! Cause "he just knew" it would go that way?!)

So, how's that work? He's a time traveler from the future!?

Blogger slarrow April 26, 2018 9:42 AM  

I disagree with Vox on his statement that Peterson is "an inept and integrity-challenged coward who lacks commitment to the truth". That's just wrong, and it's far too broad a conclusion to draw from an (admittedly poor) argument that Peterson makes.

I've read Peterson's book and watched several of his videos. A man who risks his profession and possible legal sanction over something he considers to be a baby step towards totalitarianism is not a coward. His precision of speech and willingness to say unpopular things when a easy lie would make his life so much better demonstrates a commitment to the truth. He speaks most strongly not in defense of himself but in defense of his friends, and the actions that I seen persuade me that he is not "integrity challenged." Finally, the depth of his work and the insights he pulls from apparently familiar stories convinces me that he is not normally inept. Vox is wrong on his estimation of the man as a whole.

That said, his case for the prevalence of Jews in positions of status is, indeed, awful. I attribute that more to cognitive dissonance and/or cognitive blindness, invested as he is in the evaluation of IQ and Big 5 trait openness for predictive power (his actual field of expertise) and deep investigation and horror of the Nazi concentration camps which would predispose him to thinking of the Jews solely as a persecuted class. He also hates identity politics and considers that to be driving some of the animosity towards the Jews, so I suspect that also influences his incredibly poor analysis.

Bottom line: I think Vox draws all the right conclusions about the argument and all the wrong conclusions about the man.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 9:48 AM  

I think Vox draws all the right conclusions about the argument and all the wrong conclusions about the man.

That's not possible. Every man has a price. Now we know where Peterson's is. His use of lies and deceit to attack and discredit "the far right" is despicable, both intellectually and morally. This argument is a moral failure on his part and you cannot reasonably defend it.

I'm not saying it makes him a terrible person. But if he does not recant and apologize once he is confronted with the relevant facts, then we will know his value. You think he will make it right, and perhaps he will. If so, I am wrong about his character.

If he does not, but instead doubles down a third time, then I am correct about it.

Blogger Iamblichus April 26, 2018 9:49 AM  

"40.8% of the (entire) 145+ IQ population is Jewish"

"Don't say things that make you weak"

Blogger Avalanche April 26, 2018 9:51 AM  

@17 "He probably can’t conceive of “success” outside of traditional institutional channels like big media, so now, as a “public intellectual” he dances for cash."

Yes he CAN and does 'conceive' -- one of the reasons he is on sabbatical currently is (partly cause the disruption is so huge and) partly because he can reach literally hundreds of thousands online, as against 100s in local classes. He is doing MORE than just "conceive of 'success' outside of traditional institutional channels"; he's trying to work out how to go forward with it!


Please do not assume because he has the typical stupid Canadian/American blind spot about the damned jews that therefore he is

Vox Day has (rightly) chastised me for slapping at a (comic video-blogger: Evan -- and in a weird connection, Evan actually did the chapter drawings for Peterson's book!). I called him a coward because he had NOT yet made the leap across to the Alt Right. Vox rightly said we are to encourage not drive off people who are not yet all the way awake.

Peterson, I believe, (I could be wrong; I'm willing to wait and see, since he IS saving so many of our young men!), is just too honest, and too smart -- and being driven too hard by our enemies -- to STAY asleep. I do not think he would/could/dares to -- if he HAS tipped to the truth -- speak out about it. He's ALREADY being fired at from every direction. If he says: "I'm coming Alt Right" -- he will likely be shot by the lefties!

Is that cowardly? I doubt it; how many of us dare not 'speak freely' in public. I'd suggest we should support and entice (and yes, correct as needed) people who are tiptoeing towards the truth. Vox is correct -- ALL that is left is the Alt Right. Folks will either make it safely over here -- or not....

Blogger ikacer April 26, 2018 9:51 AM  

>Your level of knowledge is not even up to Wikipedia standard.

I saw the numbers there, but they are nonsense. According to Wikipedia about 90% of hispanics are white, which is obviously wrong, at least going by the way most in the US view racial categories. I doubt it could be more than 20%.

Blogger Dangeresque April 26, 2018 9:54 AM  

"The 114.88 mean IQ did not represent the entire U.S. Jewish population in 1956 and therefore cannot possibly represent the entire U.S. Jewish population 61 years later."

114.88, huh? Interesting number...

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 9:55 AM  

I'm not the subject, David Power. Stay on topic.

Blogger pyrrhus April 26, 2018 9:56 AM  

It's not really debatable....If Peterson is anywhere near as smart as he claims to be, he knows that he is lying about the alt-right, the Ashkenazi, and the Jewish Question. Nothing unusual about that. Boaz, Lewontin, and Steven J Gould are or were all very smart guys, and they all lied about a lot of things, and even committed scientific fraud.

Blogger Brick Hardslab April 26, 2018 9:57 AM  

How much trouble would Peterson be in if he honestly addressed Jewish dominance? I know Canada has some terrible laws. I'm assuming he'd lose his job, his livelihood, his reputation, and personal and family safety. Would he also be subject to civil and criminal law in Canada and Europe if he tried to travel?

He should have just ignored the question all together.

Blogger Miguel April 26, 2018 10:01 AM  

"LOL, they're called blind spots for a reason.

Ohhh, there's the nervous laughter

OpenID Rusty April 26, 2018 10:03 AM  

When asked in an interview if he was a christian, Peterson said "yes".

3 minutes later, after some more probing by the interviewer, he admitted that he actually didn't believe in Christ.

He went head to head with William Lane Craig and had his ass thoroughly and embarrassingly handed to him.

This is the condition of the red-pilled male who has not encountered Christ. They see craziness to the left and to the right, and thus want to stake out some ground in the middle because that seems safe and reasonable to them.

What they are realizing, however, is that the middle is no longer safe.

Blogger Brick Hardslab April 26, 2018 10:03 AM  

@47
You think the US wants to add another group of native Americans? Just what they need. Some of those Mestizo can trace their heritage to inside the US. Natives don't just get AA, social security and regular benefits they get an entire parallel legal system, numerous favorable laws and actual land. The 40 acres and a mule is real except for the mule. They can buy a mustang when their per-cap comes in.

Blogger Iamblichus April 26, 2018 10:03 AM  

Philosophers must come from the warrior class. Does Peterson look like hes of warrior class. He cries every 4 minutes.

Blogger Rocklea Marina April 26, 2018 10:04 AM  

Yes, Peterson has some good commonsense advice for the young men of Neo-Babylon and is a charismatic and effective public speaker. Strip away all that and his answer to Neo-Babylon is; Identity Politics is bad, so, embrace Neo-Babylon. Having said that, the bigger he gets, the more he recruits to the Alt-Right.

Blogger Some Guy April 26, 2018 10:05 AM  

Vox,

"If he does not, but instead doubles down a third time, then I am correct about it."

Have you contacted him personally about this? Does it count as doubling down if he doesn't know that you disagree with his position? (The second question is a real one, if not confronted, it's just repetition of the same in my mind, but I could be wrong.) Again, I'm genuinely asking because I think he would be willing to talk to you if he thought you had a valid point. I also could be completely wrong about him as all I know about the man is what he presents in his online videos.

Blogger Gr8Again April 26, 2018 10:07 AM  

Beautiful takedown, Vox. I have only one minor question/critique of the analysis. You state that the Ashkenazi 107.5 IQ has been diluted by interbreeding with 102 IQ whites. Wouldn't it be more likely that the high IQ Ashkenazi would select higher IQ whites to marry? Presumably, they're not wandering the countryside of West Virginia looking for a mate but rather meeting smart whites in college. It's not a big factor, but it seems to me that that Ashkenazi IQ dilution might not be quite so large. Rather than diluting down to 104.8, it wouldn't surprise me that it still remained at the 105-107 level.

Blogger Avalanche April 26, 2018 10:09 AM  

@55 "He cries every 4 minutes. "

"Tell the truth, or at least don't lie."

He has teared up TWICE in interviews -- and it has been in PAIN for OUR young men! The sorrow he feels for their loss and pain and confusion and despair, and for how this pathological society is harming them seems to ME to a a helluva a recommendation for his grasp of WHY our young men need his help!

If a MAN tearing up over the TRUE tragedy of the young members of his tribe (and he IS a White man!) makes you think he's worthy of ridicule ... well, that speaks more to YOU than to him!

Blogger MJimmy April 26, 2018 10:10 AM  

Peterson's wife looks a tad ethnic.

Blogger Avalanche April 26, 2018 10:11 AM  

@56 "Having said that, the bigger he gets, the more he recruits to the Alt-Right."

Yes! And thus we should help him help them.... and answer his foolishness (or intentional prevarication; whichever it is) gently. Don't shoot to the right -- even IF he's only partway there! He IS helping us, no matter he's not all the way here yet!

Blogger MJimmy April 26, 2018 10:19 AM  

Peterson also admits to dependancy on psychotropic medication, fwiw.

Blogger Dangeresque April 26, 2018 10:24 AM  

I wouldn't say that Peterson is an Astroturfed figure in the same vein as Buckley and Shapiro, but after being labeled a Nazi by the far-left he has gone to great lengths to counter-signal the right on this topic and prove conclusively that he's really, totally, like, super-not a Nazi. Regardless of the truth, it's a pretty obvious attempt to maintain his mainstream appeal and therefore the size of his audience. I'm just hoping he realizes at some point that the audience he's playing to is Babel.

Blogger tuberman April 26, 2018 10:25 AM  

Not that you need praise, but this was dead on true. I was only "slightly disappointed" in Peterson, which shows that I simply wasn't up to the full truth.

Excellent work, and needed.

Blogger mike jank April 26, 2018 10:33 AM  

Off topic. Is Alt-Hero #1 going to make it out by the end of the month?

Blogger Johnny April 26, 2018 10:36 AM  

ikacer wrote:>Your level of knowledge is not even up to Wikipedia standard.

I saw the numbers there, but they are nonsense. According to Wikipedia about 90% of hispanics are white, which is obviously wrong, at least going by the way most in the US view racial categories. I doubt it could be more than 20%.


If you read the post (@41) carefully the numbers don't say what is the take here. My take is that there is some confusion in the Wikipedia presentation and I don't care to try to sort it out because: I seriously doubt that white Hispanic is a firm category. Not uncommonly we put all Hispanics in the white category. You can dig up ethnic data on Mexico, but I doubt anybody has ever gone around, looked at Hispanics in the US, and then decided how many are "white." Did they self identify in some survey?

Blogger Iowahine April 26, 2018 10:37 AM  

Peterson's wife looks a tad ethnic.

Depending on which "ethnic" you mean. She's white. Usually she's criticized for having well-defined triceps. Someone here suggested his daughter's name in reference / honor (?) of Gorbechev . . . (I knew a couple Mikhaila's, born early '60s - one Irish, one Hispanic.) While huge fan of Russian writers, Peterson no fan of the Soviets. He is fascinated by irony of being able to purchase/collect Soviet propoganda on ebay, though.

Blogger tuberman April 26, 2018 10:38 AM  

VD, Where did you discover High-Trust vs Low-Trust societies, as that explains much logically of what otherwise cannot be unknotted?

Blogger wreckage April 26, 2018 10:39 AM  

I think Vox underestimates people's capacity for self-deception. Peterson tends to argue and reason with symbols, at which he is very good, but that kind of reasoning while IMO powerful, is also subject to bias when the images don't actually track properly to the reality. He clearly has a fixed symbolic place for the alt-right that is equivalent to "Nazi", and an erroneous symbol for nationalism.

Avalanche pointed out how broken his image for nationalism is: he emotionally aligns with the culture and inheritance of one ethnic group, but limits another purely to the "ideals of the West", with no room for blood, inheritance, land, or evolved culture; only rarified ideals disconnected from both Voxian genetic-history and his own mythic-images rationale.

He's something of a show-pony, for sure, but that's needed, and thus I accept some of the flaws that go with it - just as with Vox I accept that he's a freakin' savage and a pugilist, but invariably worthy of the most careful respect.

For a lot of people, the emotional significance of admitting that there's a Jewish dominance in some sectors of finance and politics is the equivalent of giving credence to Hitler.

People in general deceive themselves quite completely over far smaller issues than notionally jumping into bed with the Fuehrer Of Failure.

Blogger Dave April 26, 2018 10:41 AM  

Think about the things Vox could do with a $70k a month patreon.

Blogger MJimmy April 26, 2018 10:41 AM  

She's white.

Source?

Blogger Iowahine April 26, 2018 10:44 AM  

re: psychotropic drug use

He and daughter have appeared on Canadian TV to discuss family history of depression. Daughter has nearly reversed her serious health/depression issues with nutrition changes; Peterson has made major dietary changes, as well. Don't know if that has resulted in change of Rx use for him, as it has his daughter. Given lifelong proclivity to depression, his productiveness is encouraging, even surprising. He may be on manic/depressive scale; regardless, his energy/output, is impressive.

Blogger Iamblichus April 26, 2018 10:44 AM  

@59 he can cry, so can you, no problem with that. I'm just saying its not indicative of someone of a warrior cast. Meaning not indicative of a true philosopher. Would Marcus Aurelius or Vox Day be crying that often for example

Blogger S1AL April 26, 2018 10:44 AM  

"I saw the numbers there, but they are nonsense. According to Wikipedia about 90% of hispanics are white, which is obviously wrong, at least going by the way most in the US view racial categories. I doubt it could be more than 20%."

Hispanic =/= Latino.

Blogger Rocklea Marina April 26, 2018 10:45 AM  

"And thus we should help him help them.... and answer his foolishness (or intentional prevarication; whichever it is) gently."

Avalanche, it doesn't need to be done gently. He's a grown man and can take his licks. Besides, the reinforcement of civic nationalism and it's inevitable collapse, will have figures like Jordan Peterson at it's center. Forcefully opposing and forewarning him, is a kindness to him and his fans. As he gets bigger, the siphoning off to the Alt-Right will grow regardless.

Blogger John Q Public April 26, 2018 10:50 AM  

It suggests he is afraid of offending the Jews.

Blogger dtungsten April 26, 2018 10:51 AM  

I think Dr. Peterson has an emotional or other blind spot here, interfering with his capability to be forthright on the subject. He's quite invested in the traditional ideas regarding Nazis.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 10:59 AM  

Have you contacted him personally about this? Does it count as doubling down if he doesn't know that you disagree with his position?

No, I don't know him. No, it only counts as doubling down when he is confronted with it and responds to it. He already doubled down once, when his commenter correctly pointed out that the demographic math refuted his position and he tried to defend his previous position with incorrect information provided to him by someone else.

I am neither a fan nor a follower of Dr. Peterson. I am content to leave it to those of you who are to bring this to his attention. If he wants to speak with me, I will do so. If he prefers to pretend I don't exist, well, that would not be the first, the second, or even the thirtieth time someone has done so.

Blogger RC April 26, 2018 11:02 AM  

If Peterson is the genuine truth-seeker that his supporters believe, VD is doing him the greatest of favors, taking valuable time to point out weaknesses. He will either be persuaded by the argument and recant or his willingness to prevaricate will be exposed. It's precisely because he's so influential that he needs to be held accountable.

Blogger MJimmy April 26, 2018 11:03 AM  

@63 Peterson is contemplating a run for PM of Canada next year. A debate with Trudeau would be pretty interesting to say the least.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 11:07 AM  

You state that the Ashkenazi 107.5 IQ has been diluted by interbreeding with 102 IQ whites. Wouldn't it be more likely that the high IQ Ashkenazi would select higher IQ whites to marry? Presumably, they're not wandering the countryside of West Virginia looking for a mate but rather meeting smart whites in college.

Not really. Think about all the Hollywood actors, directors, and producers marrying wannabe actresses. Think about the Wall Street guys marrying their secretaries and marketing executives. In fact, the higher education system is probably having the reverse effect, because the smartest Jews, particularly the women, are not marrying or having children at all.

Sure, you've got some 120 to 115 intermarriages happening, but you need a lot to make up for the 140+ woman who never marries. Another minor factor is the acceptance of homosexuality. A lot of smart gay Jewish men used to have children. They don't anymore.\

According to Wikipedia about 90% of hispanics are white, which is obviously wrong

Check your math. Anyhow, it is more credible to include them rather than exclude them, said the 150-IQ great-grandson of the Mexican Revolutionary. I can name at least one other 145+ White Hispanic from my extended family, and there are probably more.

Blogger Uncle John's Band April 26, 2018 11:08 AM  

@ 46. Avalanche

Perhaps I can be clearer. "Peterson" as a public figure is evolving. He began in alternative media, but once his platform reached a sufficient level of success, he has jumped to mainstream media platforms. You may think it a coincidence that his most egregious lies - on nationalism and the JQ - are those necessary for media anointment. I call it dancing.

The fact that he has reached countless viewers with a message of truth makes this worse. He is literally leveraging the credibility built through his platform to promote leftist lies. This is no tribe of mine.

Will he show more integrity in the future? Who knows, but don't let your feelings about the man blind your objectivity.

Blogger Nate73 April 26, 2018 11:10 AM  

JBP is not going to debate Vox Day or any other alt-righter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiyxH8EU4CM

The irony is I'm starting to find critiques of peterson from both the moderate left and the alt-right that have changed my perception of the man. There are just some (((things))) he won't talk about.

Blogger pyrrhus April 26, 2018 11:11 AM  

As several have commented, I think that, overall, Peterson has done a fair amount of good. Like Trump, however, his position in the middle is unstable, because the middle is shrinking rapidly.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 11:11 AM  

VD, Where did you discover High-Trust vs Low-Trust societies, as that explains much logically of what otherwise cannot be unknotted?

I don't recall. It was probably someone writing about the Hajnal Line. Francis Fukuyama, if my memory serves me correctly. It occurred to me that there were only two low-trust groups present in medieval Europe, and only one of them was high-performance.

Putting that together with Thomas Sowell's comments on the Chinese in Indonesia made me realize that the Jewish-European conflict was structural in nature.

Blogger Some Guy April 26, 2018 11:15 AM  

"VD is doing him the greatest of favors, taking valuable time to point out weaknesses."

Agreed. He had a video I watched last night where they are going to try and replace traditional schooling with an online system and that he was working in this direction because he considers the current system corrupted beyond redemption. I don't agree with all of his politics, but this alone puts him as someone that we should back.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 11:17 AM  

Think about the things Vox could do with a $70k a month patreon.

We would definitely make some noise on the cultural front. I'm confident we'll get there eventually. Some have already said the Voxiversity videos are better than Peterson's, but we have plenty of room for improvement.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener April 26, 2018 11:22 AM  

Excellent takedown. Personally I feel comfortable in concluding that if Peterson hasn't responded within a few weeks, he's a fraud and he knows it.

Blogger Blade April 26, 2018 11:25 AM  

Vox, would you be interested in publicly debating Peterson? I know livestream debates have become a pretty big thing on youtube lately, and there's a few big names would love to host it. If Peterson agrees, it would be a damn good show.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 11:29 AM  

Vox, would you be interested in publicly debating Peterson? I know livestream debates have become a pretty big thing on youtube lately, and there's a few big names would love to host it. If Peterson agrees, it would be a damn good show.

You know me. I'm not afraid to debate anyone. If you can arrange a livestream debate, I'll show, as long as the topic is not something ridiculous or on which we agree.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 11:31 AM  

I think Vox underestimates people's capacity for self-deception.

Possibly, but I don't think that is relevant here. Peterson's behavior here is much more consistent with someone who knows his position is untenable, but attempts to grasp at straws rather than admit that he is wrong.

Blogger Korppi on oikeus April 26, 2018 11:34 AM  

Vox, what do you think constitutes the success of certain minorities (and failure of some)? If the main factor is being a low-trust tribe in a hig-trust society, what role then does the IQ and cultural factors play? Jews are successful but gypsies are not. Latter people are as nepotistic as the former but what are they lacking, IQ or certain cultural elements?

Blogger SB Wright April 26, 2018 11:34 AM  

Vox, question on the 2 SD communication gap:

Does it imply that for ultra-high IQ people to be successful in most companies, there is a need for "merely" high IQ individuals to be there as well? Would there be a difference in type of firm when it comes to correlation of IQ to success (here as earnings & position)?
Example:

Company 1: Retail store. Manager of the store deals with hourly staff and general public.

Company 2: High tech manufacturing firm. Mangers interact with R&D, as well as foremen on the production floor.

Company 3: Hedge fund or other financial firm. Managers are financial people dealing with other financial people.

For company 1, smarter hourly staff could become managers, but beyond ~130, IQ could become an impediment to doing the job well. Not only are high-IQ types not best for this position, they aren't needed find candidates either.

In company 2, I would expect the highest IQ people to be the R&D guys, but management would need to be smart enough to be able to interact with them, and someone at the company needs to be able to evaluate whether, as your quip goes, the R&D candidate is really smart or just insane.

In company 3, IQ might correlate the best with position and salary. There isn't much interaction with average IQ-level people here, so a 2 SD gap might be beginning at a floor of 130+.

Apologies that this is unrefined. I've seen you talk multiple times about the 2 SD communication gap before, but watching your recent talk I started wondering about how that gap plays out in different areas of the economy, since the "comprehension floor" (lowest level that a person needs to regularly communicate with in their position to be successful) would be different in different sectors, as would perhaps the need to communicate chiefly vertically or horizontally in the gap.

Blogger slarrow April 26, 2018 11:40 AM  

Thanks for the response, Vox. I still disagree with you because I think you're incorrectly diagnosing Peterson's approach as a moral flaw whereas I think it's a psychological flaw. Where you see "lies and deceit", I see "unexamined premises and cognitive dissonance". Thus, if he "doubles down" again, I don't consider it fatal in the way you do because I expect it to take time and repeated exposure to break down the psychological barriers.

When you say this reflects his character and that it can't be defended, I think you're making a category error, probably because I've followed him pretty closely over the past year and a half. But even so, you've got a fair position, and whether Peterson's failings in this argument stem from moral or psychological roots, your analysis still demonstrates its fatal flaws. I'd love it if this argument got his attention, but I don't know that it will, given the volume of email and information headed his way all the time. Plus, given his pace, it might be five years before he's struggled his way through it all.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 11:44 AM  

I still disagree with you because I think you're incorrectly diagnosing Peterson's approach as a moral flaw whereas I think it's a psychological flaw. Where you see "lies and deceit", I see "unexamined premises and cognitive dissonance". Thus, if he "doubles down" again, I don't consider it fatal in the way you do because I expect it to take time and repeated exposure to break down the psychological barriers.

That's fine. I waste no time on people like that. I don't like people like that. In my experience, people with "psychological flaws" always find a way to somehow justify, rationalize, or excuse their lies.

I understand that most people are not as intellectually ruthless as I am, but it's one thing to shy away from the truth and refuse to examine it, it is something totally different to knowingly propagate falsehoods.

Blogger Metric April 26, 2018 11:46 AM  

Just a quick note that ~all of the heavy lifting of this argument comes from discrediting the usual promoted/assumed 115 average. The rest are good points, but don't destroy the plausibility of the quick figure in the same way. For example, you still get an impressive figure if you completely throw out the non-pure Ashkenazi component, and it is still reasonable to consider the possibility that 145+ may have outsized influence in elite fields, even if their numbers are diminished. But yeah, that 115 assumption is huge.

Blogger Sam Spade April 26, 2018 11:48 AM  

My main concern with Peterson has always been that his 1st commandment: "search the truth, speak the truth" is incoherent with his theory of christianity and God as useful lies for a healthy society.

1. If the most important thing in the World is the truth, why you prioritize trying to deceive yourself and others with pretty lies? You are putting ahead another thing over truth, so you are lying.

2. If God doesn't exist everything is permitted, this is my point of view only, but he somewhat thinks this is true, because otherwise he would search another way of giving moral compass to people outside of God.

Blogger Crew April 26, 2018 11:56 AM  

Jordan Peterson writes:

It hardly needs to be said that although conspiracies do occasionally occur, conspiracy theories are the lowest form of intellectual enterprise.

It appears he is a science denier because a selectionist would argue that the fact that humans are so willing to seek 'conspiracy' arguments is that in the past, in large-scale societies, conspiracies have been and are a principle method of downfall for people. Those who were unwilling to believe in conspiracies have not left their genes in the gene pool!

Blogger Patrick Kelly April 26, 2018 12:00 PM  

Vox is not being all that hard on JP.

I enjoy the JP videos and have learned about many things that are reinforced on this blog. His encounters with SJW "journalists" are hilarious.I have friends who hesitate to fully and publicly embrace the Trumpslide right, but they are becoming better informed and challenged (right awoke?) by people like JP and even the lil' chickenhawk, whatever faults and errors they may propagate. The mainstream soft-pudgy-right is a baby step toward the right for them.

Highly motivated, successful Jews conspire with Jews on behalf of Jews at the expense of non-jews !?!?!? WTF? WHOOOLLY CRAB!! WHY IS THIS NOT ALL OVER MY GOOGLE NEWS ?
(surprises and concerns me about as much as other rich and powerful people conspiring with other rich and powerful people to become even more rich and powerful)

Are high IQ Jews over represented compared to high IQ non-jews? Not clear to me.



Blogger Bogey April 26, 2018 12:00 PM  

In other words, a significant percentage of people with IQs over 140 are being systematically and, most likely inappropriately, excluded from the population that addresses the biggest problems of our time or who are responsible for assuring the efficient operation of social, scientific, political and economic institutions.

Challenging the status quo would just make you big headache for the average institution or corporation.

Perhaps we will never break from Babylon. At least not on a macro level.

Blogger Sweep the Leg April 26, 2018 12:02 PM  

Vox, do you have an ability to talk down to your lessers? If not, then:

1. There is an IQ communication gap of 30 IQ points.
2. Vox Day has an IQ of 150.
3. I understand what Vox explains to me.
4. I have an IQ of at least 120.

Prove me wrong.

Blogger The Kurganovich April 26, 2018 12:05 PM  

VD, great post. I was disappointed by you recently because you seemed to be positive on Peterson: https://voxday.blogspot.com/2018/02/max-boot-molts-again.html. It was an emotional topic for me because my much-younger brother used to be enamored with him and I just can't stand the guy. To me, he's Canada's Ben Shapiro.

As for my brother, he got off the Peterson train. His path to recovery may be helpful to some: About a year ago, after reading Solzhenitsyn on Peterson's persistent recommendations, he asked Peterson both in person and e-mail about why he skips over Solzhenitsyn's views on Jews. As my brother tells it, Peterson had no answer which was very confusing given that Peterson prides himself on his intellectual integrity and claims that he responds to every e-mail.

Blogger S1AL April 26, 2018 12:06 PM  

"Are high IQ Jews over represented compared to high IQ non-jews? Not clear to me."

That depends. Are high-IQ Indians (dot) over-represented? Within the fields of hospital administration and real estate, yes. Why? Well... that's precisely the question that needs to be asked.

"1. There is an IQ communication gap of 30 IQ points.
2. Vox Day has an IQ of 150.
3. I understand what Vox explains to me.
4. I have an IQ of at least 120.

Prove me wrong."

Potential verbal skew means that you could easily be below 120 on average.

Blogger Patrick Kelly April 26, 2018 12:10 PM  

"Prove me wrong."

You're not even wrong.

Blogger Iowahine April 26, 2018 12:17 PM  

She's white.

Source?

I don't have DNA analysis. Just seen her in pics and pics of their kids. She looks as white as I do (my DNA Irish/Scottish/welsh) or VD, so maybe she's Hispanic/Native American.

Blogger mgh April 26, 2018 12:20 PM  

Peterson doesn't strike me as afraid to admit he is wrong. He does strike me as the type who would be terrified of the violence that may very well come from a full awakening to the reality of identity politics, so he is attempting to push us towards some middle ground fantasy.

OpenID markstoval April 26, 2018 12:23 PM  

@101

I was measured in the mid 60s at 136. At my present age I should be less than that but I don't know by how much.

I understand Vox perfectly. But then, I am reading him and not listening to verbal instructions which means I can go over the material as many times as I want. And he often clarifies even more in comments or I can look at older posts on same topic.

I might have a problem if he were my boss. (it would be nice to not have to work for an idiot though)

~ Mark

Blogger Ceerilan April 26, 2018 12:25 PM  

Jordan Peterson does have points in his track records where he has retracted his statements after seeing a new (to him) counterargument. An example of this is his previous statements about MGTOW.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 12:26 PM  

Prove me wrong.

We are not having a conversation.

Blogger Sam Spade April 26, 2018 12:26 PM  

"Peterson doesn't strike me as afraid to admit he is wrong. He does strike me as the type who would be terrified of the violence that may very well come from a full awakening to the reality of identity politics, so he is attempting to push us towards some middle ground fantasy."

So he is dishonest. Because he claims everytime that "we must always speak the truth and hope for the best."

Blogger Jack Amok April 26, 2018 12:32 PM  

One requires a victim and a perpetrator in order to play identity politics.

Interesting that he gets this completely backwards: Identity politics creates victims and perpetrators, not the other way around. As soon as you have more than one identity in a polity, you'll have identity politics - even with northern European white folks, who are probably the least tribal people on the planet - and as soon as you have identity politics, you have political decisions that favor one group at the expense of another.

It suggests he has a willful blindness to the truth of identity politics, and that prevents him from seeing the solution to it. I don't like identity politics either, I think it sucks, but welcome to human nature.

The only mitigation for the problems of identity politics is to limit the size and scope of institutions, including and especially government. More and smaller institutions means more opportunities for each identity to thrive without oppressing someone else. But to create and maintain that environment, you have to accept identity politics exists (and that equality doesn't, though Peterson seems fine on that point).

Otherwise you're left making up bullshit to explain away the nepotistic behavior of people trying to consolidate power in a handful of ever-growing institutions.

Blogger slarrow April 26, 2018 12:32 PM  

That's fine. I waste no time on people like that. I don't like people like that.

Fair enough. I sometimes have to remind myself that when people I like and respect argue or fight or despise one another, this is perfectly natural and normal. After all, if what they have in common is "I like them", why in the world would that influence anything (and how would they know?) Again, thanks for the response.

Blogger Ceerilan April 26, 2018 12:34 PM  

The conservatives have been attempting to push a middle ground fantasy for 50 years. The result is surrender by inches. I also noticed that JP holds this fundamental conservative conceit.

My guess is he has fallen into the same trap as Sargon of Akkad, where he thinks that the right playing identity politics is somehow dangerous to the society rather than a necessary and frankly overdue retalliation to escalation that has already happened.

Blogger Crew April 26, 2018 12:38 PM  

I think that it's low-trust groups that are most fond of engaging in conspiracy theories, and high-trust groups that can be easily convinced that conspiracy theories are bad ...

Blogger Thanks, J. April 26, 2018 12:39 PM  

Dammit, I enjoyed Peterson videos YEARS ago, on YouTube when he had a few thousand subs. I was one of the first subs. He ruined it for me. He's the dream good goy bootlicker and I think he's at least partially aware he's biased.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 12:42 PM  

I sometimes have to remind myself that when people I like and respect argue or fight or despise one another, this is perfectly natural and normal.

I don't really have much of an opinion on Jordan Peterson. I haven't paid much attention to him because I have no need of whatever it is that he is saying. I'm not young, I'm not lacking purpose, and I am not in need of direction. On the basis of what I've seen from him, I'm unimpressed and mildly scornful.

That's not a big deal.

Blogger MJimmy April 26, 2018 12:54 PM  

@105 Dr. Peterson's wife looks Jewish, which if true could explain a thing or two.

Blogger APL April 26, 2018 12:57 PM  

Johnny: "I would imagine many "white" Hispanics carry some of the native genetics."

How many of the native Spanish are completely white after seven hundred years of Moorish occupation?

Blogger Go clones April 26, 2018 1:18 PM  

ok, I'll bite. Peterson is a huge force for good IMO and as some have already mentioned ... of the young men Peterson wakes up and calls into action ... many of them will end up on our side in the end. So he is helping our cause immensely ... not hurting it.

As for the JQ ... Peterson is no fool and understands the culture wars. He knows he has lots of enemies and is already dancing on a knife blade. Watch some of his media interviews. The last thing he needs to do ... is take on the jews. So he panders to them ... to not take on additional enemies. Tells them they are smarter than everyone else and their power is deserved ... because they are just so god-damn-smart. Why ? Because he wants to live to fight another day. And make sure his message continues to be heard by the widest audience possible.

So he lied about the JQ ... does that mean the rest of his message is wrong ? And he is continuing to get to say that message ... isn't he ? For now, anyway. If he takes on the jews and gets shut down, how does that help the culture war we are in ? Compromises need to be made to win the war at hand. He made one. We all do. Its called survival. I'd love to walk into my boss's office and tell him what I really think ... but I don't. Live to see another day. If my ancestors didn't make that judgement call the right way ... I wouldn't be here today. Neither would you or anyone else.

My opinion is give Peterson a pass on the JQ ... the net message is a huge positive in the culture wars. Anyone who can recruit millions of young men to our side ... should get a medal ... not be met with criticism. Just my 2ct worth.

Blogger Thanks, J. April 26, 2018 1:47 PM  

116.. OTH, good points - I HAVE gotten too old for much that Peterson has to say. I had a dad too, lol. I cleaned my room, lol.

I suppose I wanted and hoped Peterson would've turned out a better ally, politically. Disappointed to see somebody I admired turn out to be a counter-signalling world historical cuck!

Blogger Sweep the Leg April 26, 2018 1:49 PM  

"Prove me wrong."

We are not having a conversation.

:(

Blogger Guitar Man April 26, 2018 2:23 PM  

"SAD TROMBONE" to that weak meme.

Blogger Mastermind April 26, 2018 2:25 PM  

Peterson does these stupid anti-far right posts once in a while to keep his moderate credentials up to date, the man is def not as honest and open as he pretends but it's also wrong to draw sweeping conclusions just because he pays the judengeld necessary to remain acceptable to the mainstream

Blogger Colin Flaherty's baby momma April 26, 2018 2:29 PM  

Everyone has to simplify the infinitely complex Godverse down to their own comprehension, making severly limited general interpretations based on faulty assumptions.

IQ scores, like all other metrics, are constrained. IQ has multiple components that vary by both individual & group, and it does not measure creativity/enginuity/innovation. IQ is does not follow a perfect Gaussian/normal/bell curve distribution. IQ is not perfectly correlated with real world practical application.

For example, many overlook the >133 IQ = exclusion from intellectually elite professions because it doesn't fit into their simple narrow perspective.
On a lower waveplane an SJW simpleton retorts "Well I know a tall Guatemalan, so you just hate their skin."

Blogger Nate April 26, 2018 2:38 PM  

Vox... I very much disagree with your conclusion that Peterson is being dishonest.

We've all believed really dumb things at one time or another... and we have perhaps even rationalized those beliefs with poor arguments.

How many pro-free trade arguments have you made in the past because you never bothered to go back and verify the original data for yourself?

Jordan isn't lying here either. He's just wrong and making a bad argument based on facts that he has never personally verified.

Humans rationalize. That's all that's going on.


Blogger Iowahine April 26, 2018 2:40 PM  

Go clones . . . ISU?

Hard to swallow JP lied . . . I do think he is stuck in his academic classic liberal history & has assumed he understands alt-right without listening to correct sources, so has not been shaken up enough to revisit what he has held to be true regarding jewish IQ. At one point recently, he mentioned he was so overwhelmed by communication he had put his father in charge of his communication; that he can keep up is hard to imagine. That being said, would be good if he got off this wave before it sucks him under. The biblical series has been of great value; would hate to see that compromised. It appears he's trying to tread carefully, yet it would have been better had he not replied to the question. Given the speaking schedule he has undertaken, likely he's gonna goof up, much as he is trying not to. He does get peevish about certain topics and this is one, so hopefully, he'll take his own advice and return to the topic and contemplate it more carefully. Molyneaux would be good moderator between VD and JBP. Have long wanted JBP to heed VD, esp. regarding alt-right, which is constantly mis-represented.

Blogger Colin Flaherty's baby momma April 26, 2018 2:41 PM  

Schopenhauer, one of the greatest thinkers of all time, called the jews The Great Master of Lies.
They are clever in their own cunning way, but they have a different fundamental character & soul than Europeans.

Most people wouldn't care about the jews intelligence or wealth or status if not for their evil actions. The jewish problem is their antagonistic parasitic infiltration of every major institution using subterfuge, sabotage, suppression, turning it against the creators & the Creator. They turn Christianity into satan worship, freedom into degeneracy, art into literally trash, sociology into critical theory, truth to lies, he to she, black to white.

One of their biggest faults is they believe their own bullshit hype.


And now you know why they paint Hitler as the ultimate evil because he described all of this in perfect detail, and he took action to save his nation.

Blogger Colin Flaherty's baby momma April 26, 2018 2:42 PM  

Arthur Schopenhauer
"many great and illustrious nations with which this pettifogging little nation cannot possibly be compared, such as the Assyrians, Medes, Persians, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Etruscans and others have passed to eternal rest and entirely disappeared. And even so today, this gens extorris [refugee race], this John Lackland among the nations, is to be found all over the globe, nowhere at home and nowhere strangers. Moreover it asserts its nationality with unprecedented obstinacy and, mindful of Abraham who dwelt in Canaan as a stranger but who gradually became master of the whole land, as his God had promised him (Genesis 17:8), it would like to set foot somewhere and take root in order to arrive once more at a country, without which, of course, a people is like a ball floating in air. Till then, it lives parasitically on other nations and their soil; but yet it is inspired with the liveliest patriotism for its own nation. This is seen in the very firm way in which Jews stick together on the principle of each for all and all for each, so that this patriotism sine patria inspires greater enthusiasm than does any other. The rest of the Jews are the fatherland of the Jew; and so he fights for them as he would pro ara et focis [for hearth and home], and no community on earth sticks so firmly together as does this.

It follows from this that it is absurd to want to concede to them a share in the government or administration of any country. Originally amalgamated and one with their state, their religion is by no means the main issue here, but rather merely the bond that holds them together, the point de ralliement [rallying-point], and the banner whereby they recognize one another. This is also seen in the fact that even the converted Jew who has been baptized does not by any means bring upon himself the hatred and loathing of all the rest [of the Jews], as do all other apostates. On the contrary, he continues as a rule to be their friend and companion and to regard them as his true countrymen, naturally with a few orthodox exceptions.
… Accordingly, it is an extremely superficial and false view to regard the Jews merely as a religious sect. But if, in order to countenance this error, Judaism is described by an expression borrowed from the Christian Church as “Jewish Confession,” then this is a fundamentally false expression which is deliberately calculated to mislead and should not be allowed at all. On the contrary, “Jewish Nation” is the correct expression. The Jews have absolutely no confession; monotheism is part of their nationality and political constitution and is with them a matter of course.

They are and remain a foreign oriental race, and so must be regarded merely as domiciled foreigners. When some twenty-five years ago the emancipation of the Jews was debated in the English Parliament, a speaker put forward the following hypothetical case. An English Jew comes to Lisbon where he meets two men in extreme want and distress; yet it is only in his power to save one of them. Personally to him they are both strangers. Yet if one of them is an Englishman but a Christian, and the other a Portuguese but a Jew, whom will he save? I do not think that any sensible Christian and any sincere Jew would be in doubt as to the answer. But it gives us some indication of the rights to be conceded to the Jews.[xi]"

Blogger Colin Flaherty's baby momma April 26, 2018 2:43 PM  

Carl G. Jung
"The differences which actually do exist between Germanic and Jewish psychology and which have long been known to every intelligent person are no longer being glossed over, and this can only be beneficial to science."
"The still youthful Germanic peoples are fully capable of creating new cultural forms that still lie dormant in the darkness of the unconscious of every individual -- seeds bursting with energy and capable of mighty expansion.
In my opinion it has been a grave error in medical psychology up till now to apply Jewish categories - which are not even binding on all Jews - indiscriminately to Germanic and Slavic Christendom. Because of this the most precious secret of the Germanic peoples - their creative and intuitive depth of soul - has been explained as a morass of banal infantilism, while my own warning has for decades been suspected of anti-semitism. This suspicion emanated from Freud. He did not understand the Germanic psyche any more than did his Germanic followers. Has the formidable phenomenon of National Socialism taught them better?"

"The Jew who is something of a nomad has never yet created a cultural form of his own and as far as we can see never will, since all his instincts and talents require a more or less civilized nation to act as host for their development..."
"The Jews have this peculiarity in common with women; being physically weaker, they have to aim at the chinks in the armor of their adversary, and thanks to this technique which has been forced on them through the centuries, the Jews themselves are best protected where others are most vulnerable. Because, again, of their civilization, more than twice as ancient as ours, they are vastly more conscious than we of human weaknesses, of the shadow-side of things, and hence in this respect much less vulnerable than we are."

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 2:52 PM  

How many pro-free trade arguments have you made in the past because you never bothered to go back and verify the original data for yourself?

None. I never, ever blew off anyone's arguments without looking at the data. And the first time someone presented a solid anti-free trade argument - Ian Fletcher - I promptly investigated and publicly changed my position.

You cannot excuse Peterson's behavior by comparing it to mine. He is actively resisting the truth. He very clearly does not even want to know what it is, because then he will be forced to admit to himself that he has wronged others.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 2:53 PM  

Hard to swallow JP lied.

If it is true, as one commenter implied, that he has publicly declared that he will not debate anyone from the far right, then he is not honest. And if that is the case, you can safely expect more lies from him. They tend to travel in packs.

Blogger CoolHand April 26, 2018 3:04 PM  

IMO Peterson suffers from the same malady that basically all dissident liberals from the UK and Canada do, in that he still clings mightily to his preexisting belief that anything right wing is inherently evil and must be opposed at all costs, even though he's correctly identified the radical left as murderous and vile.

He knows that down the road of the radical left lies nothing but murder and misery, but desperately clings to the idea that what makes him a good person is forever fighting those Right Wing Fascists (whom he defines as anyone just a fuzz to the right of himself).

Ah well, he's doing some good, but the JQ isn't his only error of thought.

He talks at length about how conservative/right wing people are not creative and thus rarely entrepreneurs, but my lifetime of experience in being self employed and a small business owner has shown the opposite to be true.

I have never in my life met a leftist/liberal who was truly creative or an entrepreneur.

Most leftists like to PRETEND that they're creative (I'm an Artist!), but when you look at what they actually produce, it's all derivative (usually in a perverse manner) of something created long ago by someone who truly was creative.

The "liberals are entrepreneurs" thing baffles me, because I've never once met anyone who started a business that lasted more than a few weeks who was a leftist/liberal.

Every small business owner I know or have dealt with was at worst a libertarian, but the great majority were rightist/conservative (not in the GOPe sense, though I suppose some might fit that category as well).

Basically, I think Peterson functions best as a flotation device and lifeline to young men who are drowning in the abyss of modern culture and "family" life (which is mostly anti-family and anti-male).

He slaps them back to reality and gives them responsibilities to hold onto and anchor themselves with, so that they can put their feet on something solid and build from there.

In that capacity, he excels.

On much else, save maybe for impressing the magnitude of the murder inherent in leftism upon people who have never heard of such a thing, he's mostly out of his depth.

Which is fine, those two functions alone make having him around and speaking better than if he were to disappear entirely, because the vast majority of those young men that he saves from despair will come to join the alt-right as our brothers in arms.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener April 26, 2018 3:09 PM  

I don't see a way to prove it with certainty but it certainly looks like Peterson worked backwards - he used the percentage of Jews within the wealthiest 1% (~40%) and the purported Ashkenazi IQ of 115 as starting points, then massaged the rest of the numbers in his calculations so that the 40% calculation appears to arise organically.

His selection of a 145 IQ as the point of comparison between whites and Jews appears to be arbitrary, aside from representing an ~3SD difference from the average. In other words, he makes no case for why financial and career success suddenly begins at +3SD intelligence. On top of that he makes too many other mistakes in his calculations for this to be considered coincidence. This has to be flagrant dishonesty.

Blogger Mastermind April 26, 2018 3:13 PM  

Peterson isn't suffering from anything, he knows which lines not to cross if he wants to keep making a living so he proactively throws anti-right bombs once in a while to disarm attacks from the left and keep his centrist supporters from bolting.

Blogger Matrick April 26, 2018 3:20 PM  

I genuinely wonder if JP will read your rebuttal.
I have a feeling that the last time he was honest when it comes to this subject, is when he uttered those words: "I can't do it". Everything since then has been done under pressure. He felt he had to address the issue after that humiliation on stage, but he knows he has to conjure up something that won't destroy his career and his friendships. It's not an easy position to be in.

Blogger tublecane April 26, 2018 3:21 PM  

"the so-called 'Jewish Question'"

It pisses me off when people talk like this, because he's very clearly being disingenuous. Either that or he's historically ignorant.

I realize the JQ has been tarnished by its association with the Nazis' Final Solution, but there's no integrity in acting as if the JQ is some kind of outlandish, undefined thing basement-dwelling losers just came up with. Not when it's one of the better-defined longstanding socio-political concepts in Western culture.

Everyone forgets the Jews used to ask the Jewish Question of themselves. One of their solutions was Zionism, and these days we're all expected to morally support that solution. Which could be a Final Solution of its own.

Remaining Jews, who for whatever reason haven't gone over to Zion, continue asking the JQ. Even if they don't put it in those words exactly. I have in mind all those articles we read about "rising anti-semitism," and all the politicking they do to stave off future pogroms. Which they assume are coming, because they fear Whitey like the boogeyman. They'll apparently never be comfortable amongs us. That's what the JQ is all about.

If you want to look at it from the conspiratorial side--which is really just Jews having high in-group preference and ruthlessly looking out for themselves and eachother--what better proof that there's something to it than the fact that they can talk about their continuing failure to fit in but the rest of us can't.

Blogger Carl Philipp April 26, 2018 3:22 PM  

@133
I don't think he worked backwards on purpose. He saw what he wanted to see, but people who are insufficiently emotionally controlled can and will do so even when they are trying to be objective.

He's not ready for the stress of people lying about him, and the Daily Stormer is giving him the full Ben Garrison treatment. Under such stress, "A-HA! I have found the PERFECT argument to permanently BTFO those Nazis!" was probably very gripping, and produced a powerful euphoria.

Blogger tublecane April 26, 2018 3:25 PM  

Peterson appears to me to be a centrist who has Noticed things, acting like conservative and punching right because that's what the bien pensants demand.

There's only so much orthodoxy one can question and remain in the mainstream. Unless you fit into one of their eccentricity slots.

Blogger Salt April 26, 2018 3:26 PM  

JP is a psychologist. Vox is an economist. Vox's math-fu is way stronger.

Blogger OneWingedShark April 26, 2018 3:27 PM  

Some Guy wrote:Does it count as doubling down if he doesn't know that you disagree with his position?
This is a good question in-general; but I think the big thing that discriminates between "Doubling Down" and merely "Reiterating" is some sort of "raise the stakes" event... but I could be wrong.

Avalanche wrote:@55He has teared up TWICE in interviews -- and it has been in PAIN for OUR young men! The sorrow he feels for their loss and pain and confusion and despair, and for how this pathological society is harming them seems to ME to a a helluva a recommendation for his grasp of WHY our young men need his help!
Indeed so; I think this alone is probably his most important aspect. Perhaps the best thing to do would be pray for the man.

Iamblichus wrote:@59 he can cry, so can you, no problem with that. I'm just saying its not indicative of someone of a warrior cast. Meaning not indicative of a true philosopher. Would Marcus Aurelius or Vox Day be crying that often for example
The "stoic warrior" is much more modern a trope than the "emotional hero" (which was often also a warrior).



Blogger tublecane April 26, 2018 3:31 PM  

@6- A reliable indicator something is off is that he was talked about in the MSM, and not as a pariah. That's a flashing red signal if there ever was one.

His interview with that twit about the Pay Gap was genuinely destructive to the Narrative, but if he had been "one of us," it would at most have made a splash then disappeared. Probably he would have received the Two-Minute Hate treatment.

Instead, he's been allowed to become a "public intellectual" and his book gets publicity. Which means he's probably not one of us.

Though it doesn't necessarily mean he's one of them. I expect him to be unpersoned eventually .

Blogger tublecane April 26, 2018 3:35 PM  

@140- "The emotional hero"

Yeah, the first hero of Western literature, Achilles, pouts like a baby when his plunder gets taken away. Then he completely loses it when his friend dies.

A bit later, he becomes a literal force of nature and slaughters his enemies by the score.

OpenID bgkoranburner April 26, 2018 3:40 PM  

Peterson's claim that 40.8 percent of the 145+ IQ ... First, he omits the Asian and Black populations

You mean all 9 whiter than Mike Bloomsburg's teeth black members of American Mensa?

Why wouldn't Jewish identity be worth something? It seems worth cultivating if it makes you an automatic midwit at least smart enough to

I knew a grandson of someone who escaped the bolshiviks that changed the family name to one of a jew busted for financial crimes so they wouldn't get their wells poisoned.

. A lot of smart gay Jewish men used to have children. They don't anymore.

Ben Stine went out of his way to adopt a blond boy, When pizzagate/spiritcooking breaks we will find lots of smart jews HAVING kids.

Jews are successful but gypsies are not. Latter people are as nepotistic as the former but what are they lacking, IQ or certain cultural elements?

Gypsies will surround you to steal your wallet while jews will import moslem beheaders & rapists to distract you from stealing your pension.

Blogger Dirk Manly April 26, 2018 3:46 PM  

@31

"I think Peterson is doing his best to promote the truth as he sees it, and despite his attacks on the Alt-Right, he is helping millions of young men become more comfortable with its precepts."

Try that subjective reality BS with me to my face and I will stomp harshly on your foot, and as you howl in pain and complain that I stomped on your foot, I will mock you with "Well, that's YOUR reality, not mine."

Blogger Daniel April 26, 2018 3:46 PM  

This guy Peterson is just an unfocused blowhard. I have watched a few of his videos - time wasted that I can never recover. I had no idea of the point he was trying to make. He just rambled on without focus, softly bouncing from this barely articulated point to that.

Now Stefan Molyneux is a damn good essayist/rhetorician. I look forward, everyday, to Stefan's webcast.

OpenID bgkoranburner April 26, 2018 3:48 PM  

A lot of smart gay Jewish men used to have children. They don't anymore.-Vox Day

Graham Spanier has had more kids than Latrina
https://gab.ai/BGKB/posts/24577286

Blogger Dirk Manly April 26, 2018 3:56 PM  

@33

"He's opened the debate and that's no mean feat. And unlike you, he, like Milo, Trump, Fararge, Tommy Robinson etc., has put his personal safety on the line to do so."

I spent a year living on Forward Operating Base colloquilly known as "Rocketmaya" due to the amount of incoming we received... My barracks was hit with mortar fire at 5:30 AM, and injured some of the men in my company, including the 1st Sergeant with shrapnel in his ribs, and 2 soldiers who were emergency evac-ed to Germany.

I'm no stranger to being personally in harm's way.

That being said, there is no reason to NEEDLESSLY expose oneself to physical harm. Why risk all of the good of Castalia House just to appear in public and risk a debilitating physical attack?

You only expose yourself to physical harm when it's a necessity, or the advantage of doing so far outweighs the risk. For Vox, who has MANY ideological and statist enemies, both groups of which are prone to attracting violent psychopaths, what's the point of putting himself out as a target?

The others you mention... they are visual mass-media personalities. And they LIKE being on camera. That's not VOX's way. And the written word tends to be far more effective in the long run. For one thing, it's DURABLE, and it's also more easily edited for inclusion in derivative work.

Blogger Dirk Manly April 26, 2018 4:00 PM  

@35

"A "libertarian" artist acquaintance recently posted an hilarious pearl-clutching screed on Peterson on FB, basically describing him as the darling of the alt right and literally Hitler.

Your acquaintance is obviously wrong. Literally Hitler is a role played in turns by various members of the Ilk. Peterson hasn't posted here even once. Pretty hard to do a stint as "Literally Hitler" if he doesn't even show up at the proper venue to get the part.

Blogger Dirk Manly April 26, 2018 4:02 PM  

@36

"
Peterson has a good message overall but he has always had noticeable problems with rigorous thinking and this current debate is no exception."

Atheism will do that to you.

Rigorous thinking DEMANDS a dogged determination to get at the truth, no matter how difficult the process may be.
Atheism is characterized by avoidance of truth which makes the atheist uncomfortable.

This is why the psych profession is generally in such a dismal shambles.

Blogger L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright April 26, 2018 4:04 PM  

Saying that Mr. Peterson is favored by the main-stream media is like saying that you and Milo are favored by the main-stream media.

Blogger Resident Moron™ April 26, 2018 4:10 PM  

Matrick wrote:I genuinely wonder if JP will read your rebuttal.

I have a feeling that the last time he was honest when it comes to this subject, is when he uttered those words: "I can't do it". Everything since then has been done under pressure. He felt he had to address the issue after that humiliation on stage, but he knows he has to conjure up something that won't destroy his career and his friendships. It's not an easy position to be in.


He doesn't have to do anything.

But if he wants respect he has to be honest. And as he himself says, being honest might be hard sometimes but its a lot easier than living with yourself as a liar.

He could have just stuck to the facts, even if he'd said "these are the facts as I understand them" and "I invite you to correct me if I've misunderstood them".

But no, he provided his misreading of the facts as if it is a fact itself, and that was simply stupid. It WILL come back to bite him.

Blogger tublecane April 26, 2018 4:20 PM  

@159- Ridiculous. He's not Tennessee Coates or antth, but it's not as though you're either In or Out. There are infinite gradations of MSM favorability.

Peterson is not one of the cool kids, but he doesn't get bullied every day. Vox is a homeschooled kid two counties over.

Blogger tublecane April 26, 2018 4:21 PM  

@153- Sorry, that was supposed to be @150.

Blogger Patrick Kelly April 26, 2018 4:29 PM  

"JP is a psychologist. Vox is an economist. Vox's math-fu is way stronger."

Exactly. And Vox is a much better practiced rhetorician, with superior word-fu.

This is why I'm not convinced JP is knowingly and deliberately lying about anything.

Those who invest much pride and ego in their intellect, credentials, and achievement in a certain field often become blind to their weakness and limitations in other areas.

In this case it is JP with statistics etc, with Neil DG T it's history, among other things.

So, when they are exposed to someone else they perceive as authoritative in other areas (Boris Levinson ), they assume the other's knowledge, arguments and perspective are trustworthy, especially if they already agree with conclusions or opinions, and then appeal to the other's authority when expressing an argument in support.

This does not excuse putting fingers in your ears and running away screaming "I can't hear you, nya nyah nyah...and you're a poopy head".

Blogger tublecane April 26, 2018 4:37 PM  

@46- "I called him a coward because he had NOT yet made the leap across to the Alt Right."

That's one thing, intellectual dishonesty is another. Probably in part he's being less than forthright because he refuses to leap over to what is in mainstream opinion the Nazi side. But it would be better if he could do that without being a deceiver.

Some of us are upset with anyone who won't take the leap. But I've always been comfortable listening to people who are wrong but nevertheless Notice things and are honest. Or as honest as you can expect "public intellectuals" to be.

Blogger Rory April 26, 2018 5:01 PM  

Regarding the IQ cut off: I've no idea where he pulls the 3 standard deviations from. Just a cursory googling confirms the same thing Vox is saying here: that CEOs average 130. It seems to be the sweetspot.

(Sidenote: I reckon it's to do with the fact that the more freakish you are in IQ, the more aberrant traits you have - and those can be debilitating traits. Similar to what Vox posted the other day about atheism/left-handedness/ugliness)

Regarding Peterson as literally hitler or media darling: yes, it is strange that his victories aren't memoryholed. At the same time, there was a whole effort to Shut It Down and to villainise him (and his Army Of Trolls) after he trounced Cathy Newman. Then again, could be a matter of making kindly ol' uncle JP the greatest villain, who is easier to face, so that the true Dark Lord is kept in the shadows (although, come on, Vox kinda likes it that way).

All about protecting that precious amygdala.

Regarding evaulating Peterson: yeah... A friend and I had a discussion about this.
We were unpacking what he means by "truth". Suffice to say, he is living proof why we need philosophers. Psychologists and Economists are all well and good, but without strong Philosophy (and Epistemology particularly), your concepts get away from you.

And so I'm not surprised to find it easier for him to obfuscate on this. I've always been a bit wary, since hearing him talk about nationalism, despite the great things I think he does talk about. Speaking as an atheist, he's given me the greatest case for taking the Bible and God seriously (although I've not watched Voxiversity yet).

But, that's par for the course. I'm used to keeping most public intellectuals at a wary distance. In 99% of them I can sense some kind of aversion to really facing the truth, and then I'll hear some dishonest claim, or thing they should know better, and I become aware that I'm gonna have to start learning my way around them. I don't think I'm alone in this.

Regarding the JQ in general though... I don't understand the point of obfuscating. As others have said above: it's not a very difficult thing to say that Jews have in-group preference and take care of each other. You can simply say that. I know Dr JP is wedded to his "hierarchies of competency", and that society is structured not in some way where people try to keep each other down, but in a much more meritocratic way.

But... he makes allowances for choice to, and how women choose to either pursue the hierarchy of competency and rise to the head of a field, or choose a lower rung down and become the mothers of children instead (although, occupying a hierarchy of competency among mothers, maybe, and tie themselves to their husband's status). So why can't he allow that people don't just grant privileges based on merit alone, and that people don't act on pure mathematical rational logic, and instead are capable of in-group preference (I notice he ignores that bit entirely in his response to the commenter who brings it up).

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 5:03 PM  

Saying that Mr. Peterson is favored by the main-stream media is like saying that you and Milo are favored by the main-stream media.

It's not that he's favored. It's that he is Official Opposition. Notice how he is treated very, very differently than Milo was once they decided to destroy him.

Probably in part he's being less than forthright because he refuses to leap over to what is in mainstream opinion the Nazi side. But it would be better if he could do that without being a deceiver.

I wouldn't care at all if he simply refused to address the issue. That's fine and understandable. But being that blatantly dishonest about it while attacking those who address it honestly as cowards and failures?

I have zero respect for him. Zero.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 5:07 PM  

This is why I'm not convinced JP is knowingly and deliberately lying about anything.

He absolutely is. A lot of you are simply glossing over the fact that in addition to his own obfuscations, he directly attacked those who are telling him the truth as cowards and failures.

His behavior is not at all innocent. It is contemptible and those of you who are his fans should hold him accountable.

Would anyone here fear to call me on something like that? I would hope not.

Blogger Test1 April 26, 2018 5:18 PM  

When I first read his article, what stood out to me was how he ignored the "Identity > Culture > Politics" aspect: Whether they are smart or not, Jews as a group have very different politics to cis-Hajnalian whites. In a democracy, more Jews thwarts the will of the native nation.

Blogger RobertT April 26, 2018 5:21 PM  

He's planning to run for Trudeau's job.

Blogger David Power April 26, 2018 5:27 PM  

He's landed a few body blows to the creeps and shrews in the MSM. But more than that... He cares. Cares enough to risk his career and physical well being. And for that he has my respect.


Ok, so he has a massive blind spot when it comes to the JQ, but hell, we all have blind spots. Every single one of us.

And if any of you think you don't, that's just another one to add to the list.

Blogger Patrick Kelly April 26, 2018 5:29 PM  

"he directly attacked those who are telling him the truth as cowards and failures."

Fair enough. Somehow I missed this and will review in more detail before commenting further, if at all.

I'll admit I skim over some of the longer posts and focus on things I'm familiar with or strike my immediate interest.

Not sure how much a fan of his I am. I've never commented on any of his videos or other blog posts about him (this blog being the exception). My awareness of him other than today is like what I mentioned before.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener April 26, 2018 6:01 PM  

Conspiracy math: currently there are about 11 million millionaires in the US, which is on the order of 15 times as many as the number of >145 IQ individuals in the country. Immediately busting Peterson's hypothesis.

If one wishes to claim that there is a direct relationship between IQ and being a millionaire, one should logically use an IQ cutoff around 127-128. (With a population of 325 million, avg. IQ of 100, and SD of 15.) Making this correction shows definitively that Jews are significantly overrepresented among millionaires for reasons that cannot be explained by IQ differences alone.

OpenID simplytimothy April 26, 2018 6:01 PM  

Thank you Vox.

Blogger RobertT April 26, 2018 6:02 PM  

Most of the Mensans I've met are flaming liberals, and honestly did not impress me with their intelligence. I love the way Peterson takes down lib broadcasters, but he goes into those interviews looking for controversy. If it doesn't come naturally, he creates it. The Bill Maher vid is a good example.

Blogger LP999-16 April 26, 2018 6:05 PM  

I was listening to the peri, enjoyed the clarity thank you.

Its unfortunate JP resorted to the murky then to the deceptive. IQ is not widely understood or respected the way it should be due to "feelings" and the non existence of equality.

157, 158 Agreed; I was not surprised to how JP responded after listening to him for a long time at youtube I expected better.

Here was the video I was referring to last week online but not here, its worth listening to; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQHH6o9ual8

Blogger LP999-16 April 26, 2018 6:06 PM  

160 I dont think he will run for such.

Blogger LP999-16 April 26, 2018 6:12 PM  

JP explained how atheism will destroy a person; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgvZ1BlzCHU

This week I was asked why I was criticizing a fellow Christian, I said, its mere questioning and observations in a imperfect fallen world, the person wasn't happy with me or my answer as it was weak or not well reasoned through. The person in this offline talk has that unfortunate love for Sam Harris and is Jewish and likes to call all the alt right hateful towards this group or race - its not true or even applicable here, I tried to keep the talk about JP and words/ideas. I merely asked questions she could not answer and resorted to personal attacks - that is no good and not an argument.

The truth must be upheld and integrity to fruits of the spirit are right there too.

Blogger Dire Badger April 26, 2018 6:12 PM  

Patrick Kelly wrote:"he directly attacked those who are telling him the truth as cowards and failures."

Fair enough. Somehow I missed this and will review in more detail before commenting further, if at all.

I'll admit I skim over some of the longer posts and focus on things I'm familiar with or strike my immediate interest.

Not sure how much a fan of his I am. I've never commented on any of his videos or other blog posts about him (this blog being the exception). My awareness of him other than today is like what I mentioned before.


I never understood his sudden surge in popularity. Yes, he seemed to be an opponent of feminism, but his long-winded and stuttering lectures lacked direct impact and just seemed to be a restatement of the dialectic that's been going around the manosphere for the better part of two decades.

He. Is. Boring. Not to mention that his diatribes lacked the impact of even the littlest chickenhawk.

And then this sudden surge of adulation.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 6:37 PM  

Ok, so he has a massive blind spot when it comes to the JQ, but hell, we all have blind spots. Every single one of us.

You're a passive-aggressive little coward, David Power. And a failure.

But don't hold it against me. I only pointed that out because I have a blind spot about Argentines.

Blogger Flair1239 April 26, 2018 7:00 PM  

Vox, are you going to call out Stefan Molyneaux as well? He has presented many of the same statistics on this issue as Peterson. Are you going to question his integrity as well?

Your instincts are not stellar on these issues. You were a consistent defender of Richard Spencer even in the days after Charlosville.

Peterson has helped more people and done more damage to the political Left than anyone short of Trump himself. If he needs to appease the Jews to maintain his influence, I do not give a Fuck and neither should you. I thought we wanted to win... he has moved the Window Right that is what matters.

Blogger Freddy April 26, 2018 7:16 PM  

All entrenched posers will be questioned and crossexamined. Cause the truth never wavers

Blogger SirHamster April 26, 2018 7:21 PM  

Flair1239 wrote:If he needs to appease the Jews to maintain his influence, I do not give a Fuck and neither should you.

Truth > influence, because influence comes from truth.

Trade truth for influence, and you will wind up with neither.

If the influence was so good in of itself, you wouldn't have to plead what you are saying.

Jordan Peterson has said things that make himself weak. Pretending away weakness doesn't. Vox correcting Peterson with the truth is the best thing to do to and for him.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 7:30 PM  

Vox, are you going to call out Stefan Molyneaux as well? He has presented many of the same statistics on this issue as Peterson. Are you going to question his integrity as well?

Call him out? For what? I know Stefan. He will behave correctly when he considers the facts. He won't attack people as cowards and failures for presenting him with them.

I don't care that someone is wrong. Most people are wrong about most things, because MPAI. But Peterson is actively pushing lies and attacking those who were correcting him and telling him the truth.

Many of you don't seem to grasp the difference between saying "I think 2+2 is purple" and saying "you are a coward and a failure because you believe 2+2=4!"

Your instincts are not stellar on these issues. You were a consistent defender of Richard Spencer even in the days after Charlosville.

Bullshit. You are blatantly lying. I barely mentioned either Spencer or Charlottesville; the proof is in the blog archives. This was the one post addressing it.

MONDAY, AUGUST 14, 2017
Neocons 2.0
When I said it's not punching right to criticize the Alt-Reichtards, I had no idea how correct I was to use the term Fake Right.... Criticizing these guys isn't punching right. There are birds in my yard that have been right-wing longer than them. They are not even to the right of the average cuckservative. This may explain why, when I had Richard Spencer on Brainstorm, we were all surprised to discover that he was to nearly everyone's left.



Blogger VD April 26, 2018 7:35 PM  

Peterson has helped more people and done more damage to the political Left than anyone short of Trump himself. If he needs to appease the Jews to maintain his influence, I do not give a Fuck and neither should you.

My standards are considerably higher than yours. I'd have more confidence in a gay communist who stands by his gay communist principles than in Peterson.

Blogger Flair1239 April 26, 2018 7:40 PM  

Absolutely not lying. You did a Darkstream after Charlottesville. It was on Periscope. You spoke specifically about the Torchlight parade.

You are doing the same thing the Conservatives do. Because someone does not pass your purity test you are shitting on them.

JP gets the benefit of the doubt.



Blogger Elwin Ransom April 26, 2018 7:42 PM  

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JQHH6o9ual8

About 8 min where JP talks about this and race and IQ.

Vox isn’t being charitable, which is normal and SOP when he argues against someone or something.

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants April 26, 2018 7:44 PM  

Me & my lesser 127 IQ, (hey, cut me some slack, for a basic white broad,that's not bad), deeply & humbly thank you for systematically taking this Canacuck and his recycled Deepak Chopra/Dale Carnegie bullsh*t to the woodshed.
I get that Millennials are all enthralled by a male authority figure telling them to wash their genitals, clean their rooms, and the radical concept of being decent human beings, (owing to their lack of fathers and overall parenting), but this sweater vest wearing, wavery voiced, anxiety med dependent LEAF should not be a generation of young men's North Star.
If any of you young fellas just feel like you'd benefit from someone older that's been there, done that, offering you some tips or basic life hacks, hit me up. I'd be glad to help.
I can offer a variety of practical real life pointers-
minus the psychobabble and the $20 personality test fee, unlike Jordan "call me DOCTOR,Bucko" Peterson.
I call it "being a grandmother." 😁

Blogger insight April 26, 2018 7:45 PM  

"But more than that... He cares. Cares enough to risk his career and physical well being. And for that he has my respect."

Must be tough pulling in North of +100k a month with YouTube, Patreon, books, speaking engagements etc... sounds real "risky" and life threatening. Ummm that's sarcasm don't ya know?

Peterson knows which side his bread is buttered and he's not about to rock the boat.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 7:47 PM  

I've never done any more than give Richard Spencer the benefit of the doubt until he proved he did not merit it. And you're crazy if you think I am doing what conservatives do. It has nothing to do with purity and everything to do with basic integrity.

Jordan Peterson gets no benefit of the doubt from me. I doubt him very much indeed. I expect intellectual integrity from a philosopher. I am not seeing any of that from him.

If he recants and apologizes, great. If he doesn't, I suspect that you are going to be deeply disappointed in him sooner or later.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 7:49 PM  

Vox isn’t being charitable, which is normal and SOP when he argues against someone or something.

I am charitable when people merit it. Peterson doesn't. Read his post.

Blogger Elwin Ransom April 26, 2018 7:51 PM  

Insight,

He risked his career well before his fame and fortune. The money came after he stood up and had a spine.

You don’t know what your talking about.

Blogger Flair1239 April 26, 2018 7:54 PM  

Fair enough.

I am admittedly biased. Peterson’s Maps of Meaning series helped me work through a tough situation and make some tough choices.

I will always consider him a spiritual Father of sorts. I have a affection for him, much like I do for Trump

Blogger Elwin Ransom April 26, 2018 8:01 PM  

I did read his post. He is wrong on this one. That happens. But you need not tar and feather him over it and all the vitriol is over the top. The man is doing a lot of good. I mean hells bells just standing up for IQ and all that comes with it is something, the left and the blank slaters hate IQ. JP isn’t perfect, but he is pointing the the right direction.

Blogger insight April 26, 2018 8:03 PM  

"You don’t know what your talking about."

Could be. He still comes across a just another pampered prof. Let's hear his hard luck story.

Blogger Flair1239 April 26, 2018 8:09 PM  

Well said.

Blogger Elwin Ransom April 26, 2018 8:13 PM  

Blue collar kid raised is a small mining town, he came from nothing.

There is a certain irony of this being on your mind given present company. Not that I think the measure of a man is if he did or did not come from privilege.

Blogger Bilroy April 26, 2018 8:16 PM  

Despite all his signalling about drawing young men away from the seductions of the alt-right, he has had the opposite effect on me. JBP's philosophy is self-contradicting. He'll tell you to 'pay attention', to those subtle cues that tell you when you're deceiving yourself. Yet when he preached the sacrament of recognising the evils of the holocaust, I entertained them for while but felt unable to hallow the event with any true sincerity. It felt dishonest, a false idol.

And his ruminations on the snake in the garden. What is the JQ if it if not a snake in JBP's garden? One he'd rather pretend isn't hiding in the grass while his children are at play in the yard.

The stormies wrote a funny article on this being 5D chess on JBP's part. But it isn't far from the truth. And thanks to this, we've been treated to perhaps the best post from VD on the JQ so far. Thanks, Vox.

Blogger Al Du Clur April 26, 2018 8:32 PM  

Peterson and Glenn of Instapundit represent the two secular types of Jewish defenders in the allowable modern discourse. (The third being evangelicals who believe God has commanded them to worship the "chosen people").

Mr. Instapundit seems to be the ordinary victim of decades of Jewish propaganda who in large part defines himself as a good person by opposition to anti semitism and through support of Israel. (This has the added perceived benefit of allowing in him to virtue signal that he isn't a bigot like the alt right). This group is not really unlike the North Koreans who worship their exalted leader but the Koreans at least have the excuse of no available opposition information (The Korean dynasty must be the Jews' role model).

Peterson reminds me of the typical careerist one sees all the time in corporations. He steadfastly follows Homer Simpson's 2nd most important rule of life: good idea boss. Peterson realizes that if he wants to get ahead he has to make sure he never criticizes the boss and is supportive of him. This is true of every top down autocratic institution which the US became when the Jews took over. Peterson is likely smart enough to get that the Jews don't tolerate any criticism. What he does not get is that they don't even like being talked about except in criticising anti semitism. Case in point the children's crusade against guns. Jews in their own publications brag about Jews being the leaders. Goys are not to mention that.

So, Peterson will likely need to be shut down soon because he is both calling attention to Jewish dominance and unwillingly opening the door to using IQ as a guide to who should succeed. After all, if Jews are successful because of high IQ (false but the narrative) doesn't that mean that blacks should not be successful because of low IQ? That type of crime think can't be allowed because it would undermine all the Jewish narratives for the destruction of white societies.

Blogger insight April 26, 2018 8:33 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Arvid E April 26, 2018 8:51 PM  

Assuming that the American Jews have a sufficiently high average IQ AND a strong in-group preference, their IQ elite would not suffer from the IQ communication gap and exclusion from positions of influence as much as the IQ elite of whites. It is ironic, isn't it, that the only thing that could explain Jewish success while retaining the premise of their supposedly high IQ is a strong in-group preference.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 8:53 PM  

I will always consider him a spiritual Father of sorts. I have a affection for him, much like I do for Trump.

That's fine. That's great. But then you should hold him accountable when he makes mistakes so that he can fix them. Don't encourage him in his lack of integrity.

But you need not tar and feather him over it and all the vitriol is over the top.

I wouldn't have if his idiot defenders hadn't tried to defend him instead of correcting him. Initially, I just thought he was wrong and a bit unnecessarily snarky. The more I've looked into him, the more contemptible I have found him.

Deplatforming Faith Goldy? That alone would be sufficient cause for me to dismiss him.

Blogger Avalanche April 26, 2018 8:54 PM  

@72 "Would Marcus Aurelius or Vox Day be crying that often for example "

Twice? (In public, that we know of) Twice is not "that often" -- and was it not Achilles who CRIED over Patroclus?

"The death of Patroclus forms a turning point in Homer's Iliad. Achilles had retreated ... Achilles finally breaks down and cries, both for his own aged father, left behind in Phthia, and for Patroclus, his close companion."

So, by your standards, ACHILLES is not a warrior?!? Look internally -- your standard is broken!

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 8:55 PM  

Assuming that the American Jews have a sufficiently high average IQ AND a strong in-group preference, their IQ elite would not suffer from the IQ communication gap and exclusion from positions of influence as much as the IQ elite of whites.

But we know they do. Because everyone at that high level of IQ is driven out of the elite professions.

Blogger L' Aristokrato April 26, 2018 8:56 PM  

Alternative Hypothesis has a very good video-critique on Peterson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR5oJW0MoYw

OpenID temp42 April 26, 2018 9:15 PM  

"Use of the White, Non-Hispanic population is not correct here, because the White Hispanic population is defined as being genetically white and therefore cannot be excluded from the relevant White population numbers" Is there evidence that in terms of voting/identity, white hispanics in USA side with white non-hispanics rather than non-white hispanics? Isn't such evidence needed to make the point that they should be counted as white rather than hispanics when analyzing over- or underrepresentation of various groups in positions of power?

Blogger Colin Flaherty's baby momma April 26, 2018 9:18 PM  

Peterson is certainly under pressure to take this position, though he always seemed to be a "I'm a good boy who deserves a gold star because I trash talk racist nazis", pretending to be a rebel independent thinker while still swallowing & regurgitating the most critical parts of the Narrative.

Even if some would prefer this be more about the idea than the man, a personal drama altercation is a better spectacle that gets more attention than an strictly academic analysis & debate.

Blogger Critical G April 26, 2018 9:19 PM  

High-IQ (140) full-blooded Ashkenazi here — long time lurker, occasional commenter —, and I can tell you that @VD is totally right. Please share this if you think it makes a contribution to the debate.

I've been thinking about these matters for a long time, and I can tell you @VD does us all a far greater favour by stating the unvarnished truth than JBP does by perpetuating a falsehood. I share the following thoughts and observations to back up what @VD has been saying.

(1) Jewish average IQ of anything higher than about 106 is a myth. I grew up amongst, and went to school and university with, both Ashkenazim and Mizrahim. Yes, a lot of us are smart, but we are nowhere near *that* smart. Maybe the neurotic Jewish emphasis on education results in higher than whites', but that's not solely a question of natural general intelligence.

(2) I ran the numbers on Israel's IQ and came to Vox's conclusion, i.e. the Ashkenazi average can't be higher than the 102-106 range. I am skeptical of Israel's national average being as low as 96, but even if it were as high as 105, Vox's argument would still stand. Given the three variables — Ashkenazi IQ, non-Ashkenazi IQ, and Arab IQ (which can safely take as 83) — the higher the average Ashkenazi IQ, the lower the non-Ashkenazi IQ must be, and an average Ashkenazi IQ of 115 results in non-Ashkenazim having a lower IQ than Arabs.

As the vast majority of Jews outside of Israel are Ashkenazim, the rest of my comment pertains to Ashkenazim only — which actually supports Vox's argument.

(3) Although our general IQ is only a couple points higher than whites', I do think our verbal acuity is at least a standard deviation higher. I don't have numbers to back it up, just my personal experience looking at it from within and without. That is (and this is a double-edged blade), we are extremely talented when it comes to language, debating, polemics... and propaganda, lying, and swindling. A fighter for truth has the same weapons as the most fork-tongued deceiver, the difference being in their respective commitments to Truth or the Message.

(4) The myth of Ashkenazi super-intelligence is as harmful to Jews as the myth of IQ equality between blacks and whites is to blacks. It gives rise to anti-semitic beliefs in the super-human evil cunning of Jews, and it also turns Jews into a philo-semitic fetish. I get very annoyed when a philo-semite tries to place me on a pedestal, and my admonitions to be proud of your own culture often fall on deaf ears.

(5) Owing to the myth of Ashkenazi super-intelligence, we labour under unrealistic expectations to be naturally gifted and clever in every which way, and I am convinced a lot of Jews in prominent positions suffer from imposter anxiety, much like those blacks who are undeservingly admitted to elite universities.

(6) I have a pet hypothesis that blacks in America are ultimately unhappy because they know they will always have low sexual market value no matter how prosperous they be. Telling a black woman that she has it better than her sisters in Africa, when 90% of desirable men automatically downgrade her SMV, simply doesn't speak to what really makes her unhappy. And of course, the ways in which black men seek to compensate for their low SMV constitute an entire genre of memes.
By the same token, I think we (Jews), in our heart of hearts, feel the same way. We're simply not as tall or good looking as the northern Europeans, and we know it. In Israel, the things we're embarrassed about — big noses, frizzy hair, etc — are the norm, and Israelis, for all their obnoxious tendencies, at least do not suffer from the Diaspora Jew's neurosis about looking Jewish.

Ultimately, I think the solution for Jews is to return to Israel, and for blacks to move back to Africa. Neither of our groups really belongs in the West, and it would really be better for everyone involved.

Blogger Avalanche April 26, 2018 9:35 PM  

@82 Perhaps I can be clearer. "Peterson" as a public figure is evolving. He began in alternative media, but once his platform reached a sufficient level of success, he has jumped to mainstream media platforms.
Do you mean because he is on a book tour and visiting TV and radio stations? His "platform" was and IS Youtube (is that no longer "alternative media"?) and invited (and sometimes dis-invited) college talks. He is not currently teaching classes because of the insane uproar surrounding his testimony to the Canadian Parliament and its follow-on -- I do not agree that such testimony is "jumping to mainstream platforms."

Would you describe our Dark Lord as "jumping to MS platforms" when HE responds (or doesn't) to the NYTimes or Rolling Stone? (Notice, please, Vox has given book- / publishing- /comic-related interviews about Castalia or Arkhaven -- he is 'promoting his books' -- just as Jordan is promoting his.


You may think it a coincidence that his most egregious lies - on nationalism and the JQ - are those necessary for media anointment. I call it dancing.
I'm not sure we can yet identify him as speaking egregious lies: if the ONLY material you have ever read, and been deeply deeply horrified and affected by, are the (vindictive murderous) "victors" describing their version of "history" -- how would you know what you have accepted is lies? I believe he has not yet had to confront his blindness to his own (deep!) leftie anchor. He calls the C-Ville guys "white supremacists" because he does not know any better about them. Most people don't know any better. Most people think -- sorry: feel and believe -- that our people at C-Ville were all Nazi's and KKK. How would any normies know different!? The authorities are charging that kid with the car with second-degree murder -- and that woman died of a heart attack! (Her own mother said so!) How do they get murder from that?! And how is Peterson -- surfing the tsunami that has engulfed his life -- to learn different?


The fact that he has reached countless viewers with a message of truth makes this worse. He is literally leveraging the credibility built through his platform to promote leftist lies. This is no tribe of mine.
Disagree. Very little of what he is "leveraging" IS leftie lies. Some of it certainly is. My impression from, oh probably 30 or 40 hours of listening to him is -- he is devoted to the truth. And when he knows the truth, I believe he will have to change his position. Where in modern academe would he have learned the truth? He IS tribe of ours -- he's still blind and brainwashed on many points, but he is ours, and may very well be salvageable. And if he is salvaged -- if we CAN bring him to the Dark Side -- what a tribe of our people he will bring with him!

Will he show more integrity in the future? Who knows, but don't let your feelings about the man blind your objectivity.
Perhaps it's because I TOO was raised blindly leftie; marched in civil rights marches; I firmly completely 100% believed the jews about ... well, pretty much everything. (NYer; jew-central!) (Hell, I joke now that I was RAISED jewish in all but race and religion!) It did take me till my 40s to finish "My Awakening" (and David Duke's book by the name is an excellent primer on the brainwashing! Primer as in: a place for children -- or childlike brainwashed adults -- to start. Jordan is parroting what he 'knows to be true' -- WE know he's wrong. But instead of slurring and driving him off, let's try to capture him for our side and free HIS mind! No?

Blogger Avalanche April 26, 2018 9:36 PM  

@83 "There are just some (((things))) he won't talk about."

Yes, and there "some (((things))) MOST of us wont' talk about" except behind an avatar name! Are WE thereby insidious liars -- or trying to protect family and self?

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