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Thursday, April 26, 2018

Why the Dread Ilk are so superior

To Jordan Peterson's milquetoast millennials.

All I can say is that if I ever screwed up as thoroughly, and as publicly, and demonstrated such a flagrant lack of intellectual integrity as Peterson has, I would damn well expect every single member of the Dread Ilk to jump down my throat with sharpened spurs on.

Instead, what do we see here? Oh, poor Jordie, it's just so difficult for him? It's so hard! How can a philosopher be expected to simply tell the truth? He's done so much good that we shouldn't criticize him when he's running around calling people cowards and failures because they point out the obvious to him! Don't be mean to Jordie and make him cry!

Excuses. Complaints. Rationalizations. Whining. Accusing. Anything but holding the man accountable for his deceitful words and his lack of intellectual integrity. I'm unimpressed enough with the man, but it's his followers that really have me rolling my eyes.

WTF? Is the guy such a delicate depressed flower that he's going to kill himself over being called on acting like an uncharitable and uninformed jackass? I thought this was supposed to be the fearsome debater, the formidable man of principle who isn't afraid to go into the belly of the beast to tell it like it is?

Let me make one thing clear. I do not give a fragment of a flying fuck about poor little Jordie or any other public figure with whom I am not personally acquainted. I have not read his books nor watched his videos. I care about the truth and the Truth, and I do not cut any intellectual figure any slack in that regard, including myself. I ask for neither quarter nor mercy from anyone, least of all my supporters.

When I get it wrong and you can conclusively prove it, then show me! If you're correct, I won't attack you, much less call you a coward and a failure like Peterson did, to the contrary, I will be grateful to you for helping me get back on the correct path of true understanding.

Labels: ,

185 Comments:

Blogger Quilp April 26, 2018 8:17 PM  

As was posted by others last night, I just always felt there was something "off"with the man, although I never felt like taking the time to pin it down. He came off as a guru rather than a philosopher. Our young men deserve better. Nail him, the true measure of a man is how he conducts himself when called on his own BS.

Blogger SirHamster April 26, 2018 8:32 PM  

Quilp wrote:As was posted by others last night, I just always felt there was something "off"with the man, although I never felt like taking the time to pin it down. He came off as a guru rather than a philosopher. Our young men deserve better. Nail him, the true measure of a man is how he conducts himself when called on his own BS.

I like Peterson, but he is agnostic on Jesus raising from the dead, making him a cultural Christian at best.

I've listened to many of his YouTube videos, and I like him for his story-telling perspective. I think a lot of his appeal is towards father-less/weakly fathered young men as a substitute father figure.

This explains some of the emotional reaction of his defenders; this is attacking "dad", and that triggers loyalty rules, rather than truth rules.

What they don't understand is that truth and Truth is stronger than loyalty. What can survive Truth is stronger than anything else in this world, whether flesh or steel. And as Vox points out here, their excuses are weak. They need to take Peterson's own advice to heart: "Stop saying things that make you weak."

Truthful criticism is not to be feared, but embraced.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 26, 2018 8:32 PM  

I think a lot of the pushback you are seeing, and JP's original argument, when it comes to it, are based in identity rather than reason. JP's whole schtick, the basis of a lot of his thought, is in the Holocaust, and the idea that it is somehow uniquely evil, rather than a minor event in a huge and terrible war.
His disciples by and large don't just agree with him, they look up to him, as a spiritual or intellectual father. As such they would have argued with you no matter what negative thing you said about him. But to call him dishonest is like calling their mother a whore. Except most of them have terrible mothers they don't respect and a substantial number have mothers who are whores.

Anyway, that's my take, that the accusation of dishonesty is what's put your accusations over the line for many people. I don't know that he's actually dishonest, but his failure to do any diligence at all or examine his supporting data once he found exactly the number he was looking for, does tend to impugn his integrity at the least.

Blogger Bellguard April 26, 2018 8:44 PM  

The Dread Ilk stand with Jack Ward.

Blogger Darwinite April 26, 2018 8:49 PM  

Agree 100%, but the word is “milquetoast”.

Blogger Hammerli280 April 26, 2018 8:50 PM  

"When I get it wrong and you can conclusively prove it, then show me!"

Kids, don't take this lightly. Roll in on Vox with undocumented BS and he'll tear your head off. And mind your manners. Always mind your manners, even if you're going to kill a man.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 8:57 PM  

Corrected, thanks.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 26, 2018 8:57 PM  

Should the sharpened spurs be unadorned, or could we go for the shit dipped look, such as punji stakes?

Just saying.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 26, 2018 8:58 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Uncle John's Band April 26, 2018 8:58 PM  

I agree with the paternal attachment comments in #2 and 3.

Had he stuck to offering personal structure through the hero's journey, this wouldn't even be an issue. The problem is that he is failing on the very same grounds (truth, courage) that he tries to instill in his viewers, and uses to attack his critics. He is intellectually and ethically self-immolating; no one is going after him.

For the people he has helped, the final stage in the growth process is to move past reliance on the teacher. If you've found purpose through truth and courage, those values don't vanish because Peterson couldn't live up to them.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 26, 2018 9:00 PM  

Situations can arise in my line of work where the right equipment can scientifically demonstrate a little too much of what is actually happening inside a process. Handling that requires solid finesse, that isn't required when dealing with Peterson's followers.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 26, 2018 9:01 PM  

Solid point, John Band. The truth is the truth, no matter how imperfect or sinful the lips that speak it.

Blogger Flair1239 April 26, 2018 9:03 PM  

This is Gamma like behavior.

Blogger Lovekraft April 26, 2018 9:04 PM  

VD is inviting valid inquiry, so here goes. I have no desire to gain egopoints. Natural inquiry into the issue of politics, society, culture etc.

I think JP and Vox would both reject white ethno-nationalism/alt-white. So, if that's the case, would eliminating the undue influence of any one ethnic group mean NO one group should be dominant? And how would that be done without a return to central planning? Or is a certain size of nation the only answer. Is history a simple pattern of competing ethnic interest that we will never break free from and, if so, we should once and for all, determine what the alt-right's position is.

Blogger Bradley Reuhs April 26, 2018 9:05 PM  

OT did everyone see this about the house chaplain:
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/04/26/speaker-ryan-forces-out-the-house-chaplain/23421413/

praying for taxes to even out the world

Blogger The Rev April 26, 2018 9:08 PM  

I'm a big fan of Jung, but many populizers of Jung lean towards guru/cult leader mentality. Even Joseph Campbell had this vibe.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 9:10 PM  

This is Gamma like behavior.

What is "Gamma like behavior"? Do tell.

Blogger Amos Bellomy April 26, 2018 9:11 PM  

Meh, what I see from JP is a guy who is not particularly interested in this issue but got asked about it all the time, so he did cursory research on it so people wouldn't bug him anymore.

I don't intend to label him an enemy on the basis of a topic he's all but said doesn't interest him in the first place.

I don't care about anyone's feelings.

Blogger VFM #4388 April 26, 2018 9:16 PM  

I started following Vox however many years ago because he published a retraction.

That is how I choose my leading lights. I don't agree with any of them. But for all I think they are wrong about this or that thing, I know they are not lying to me.

As for Peterson, I like him. He's one of the Eloi true believers who has cast in with the Right because he discovered, to his horror, that Morlocks are the real racists. I pray for his soul with no reluctance.

But while a Leftist True Believer is a powerful foe for the Morlocks, he's still a Leftist True Believer. He's still trying to build a shiny secular utopia. He is not our friend. He is simply an enemy of an enemy.

Blogger SidVic April 26, 2018 9:19 PM  

Ho Ho this escalated quickly! I'm having trouble following. Where did JP call anyone cowardly. He does appear to oppose white nationalism and Nazism. He is in death struggle against the horrid postmodern rabble. He appears a race realist; although i am surprised the media hasn't drawn him out on this. Do mean IQ differences exist between blacks and whites? Is it genetic? Yes and Yes = racist (by definition). Boom you got him!
I do think that respectfully bracing JP on these issues is reasonable, but the viciousness expressed above seems a little over the top. Can the Alt-right have allies?

Blogger Flair1239 April 26, 2018 9:20 PM  

Repeatedly attacking his integrity for citing the same statistics on Jewish IQ that have been cited in numerous other discussions on race and IQ in the Alt Right Video blogging community.

Your anger at him is palpable. I don’t see where you have proved that he intentionally cited false information. For fucks sake, I am not even sure you proved his statements were wrong (I didn’t see your sources so I may be wrong on this).

I just think you have taken a relatively minor issue way to far and I don’t really understand the reason for all the vitriol. I am honestly baffled.

Blogger Bogey April 26, 2018 9:26 PM  

@21 Your anger is palpable Flair, read the original post again.

Blogger Darwinite April 26, 2018 9:27 PM  

Something Vox said in the dark stream reminded me of the Psalm: “It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man. It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in princes.“ By all means, listen and learn from what JBP says about psychology, but he is a man like any other, and subject to our common failings.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 9:27 PM  

Repeatedly attacking his integrity for citing the same statistics on Jewish IQ that have been cited in numerous other discussions on race and IQ in the Alt Right Video blogging community.

As I thought. You don't even know what Gamma is and you are upset because your ersatz daddy figure has fallen off his pedestal. Grow up and deal with it.

Your anger at him is palpable.

It's not anger. It's contempt. You don't even understand the difference. What part of "I don't give a damn about Jordan Peterson" is hard for you to grasp. I don't read him. I don't watch him. I am not part of his prospective audience. I have no cause to be angry at him.

I just think you have taken a relatively minor issue way to far and I don’t really understand the reason for all the vitriol. I am honestly baffled.

That's because you do not understand the importance of intellectual integrity. It is not a minor issue. It is a very significant one. Here is a lesson for free: when you don't understand what is going on, then shut up and do not share your opinion because it is irrelevant.

Blogger Ingot9455 April 26, 2018 9:31 PM  

@14 Hie thee hence to the 16 Points. It all follows from there.

15. The Alt Right does not believe in the general supremacy of any race, nation, people, or sub-species. Every race, nation, people, and human sub-species has its own unique strengths and weaknesses, and possesses the sovereign right to dwell unmolested in the native culture it prefers.

Blogger VD April 26, 2018 9:31 PM  

I'm having trouble following. Where did JP call anyone cowardly.

It's really not that hard. Read the original post referring to the "right wing conspiracy theorists": "your unrecognized resentment and cowardly and incompetent failure to deal with the world forthrightly..."

Blogger Bellguard April 26, 2018 9:32 PM  

>Calling Vox’s behavior Gamma-like

FUCKING ADHERENCE TO ACADEMIC STANDARDS, HOW DOES IT WORK

Blogger Bogey April 26, 2018 9:33 PM  

Funniest thing the Dread Ilk ever did was in Ethan Van Sciver's live chat, after Sciver said Vox was like Charles Manson the Ilk started referring to Sciver as piggy. Shit even made Chuck Dixon laugh.

OpenID yclepedbobali April 26, 2018 9:35 PM  

I saw Jordan's response to the question critiquing his post on the JQ. I commented immediately on Jordan's website. In my comment I linked directly to Vox's initial post of 22 April 18 on the myth of the average IQ of 115. Vox's nutshell point is that the 115 average is a ridiculous derivation from a stack of unrepresentative subsets. I wasn't aware of the IQ communication gap. I supplemented Vox by asking Jordan: if his thesis means the white-black achievement gap is explained and justified by IQ differences; how can uniform or even majority Jewish entities exist in legal jurisdictions like Canada and the UK and Australia where strict diversity is coerced and enforced by law; how can he explain Jewish overrepresentation in international universities like the Ivy League subject to competition from massively larger populations of >145 individuals; and why Israel isn't like the city '01' in the Matrix if it's population is a full sd higher in IQ then Europe. That last point is somewhat unfair - but Jordan's thesis requires you to accept that all 'Jews' genetic or otherwise, have an average IQ of 115.

What did Jordan do?

My comment stayed up for 1 hour. It was by far the most sophisticated answer (thanks to Vox. I'm good at synthesising, embellishing. But Vox did the original work). Most of the other comments were Paganini's variations on the theme of nepotism and 'the Joo's are why I stubbed my toe'. But not mine, and not the answer Jordan so unfairly answered.

What did Jordan do? Well clearly he, or a member of his team read my post and immediately panicked because it did two things: 1) it comprehensively rebutted his argument 2) it rebutted his argument so thoroughly that it raised the prospect that he had been, shall we say, 'disingenuous'.

Jordan censored the post. He spammed it, and it wasn't spam. I fully understood. That's why I directed all questions not at Jordan, who I praised, but to liberals in the wild. It's not for Jordan to answer these questions that musn't ever be answered. It's for the people censoring them and him. Everyone knows the tranny trunchbulls want to hang Peterson. Everyone knows the vile anti-speech laws of House Leaf Cuckistan. But it's quite ironic, because I wanted to see Jordan at an event that I couldn't go to in Canada because he was de-platformed. He de-platformed me.

It's very simple. What Jordan said is factually untrue. It is untrue at every level of analysis to such a degree it raises issues of purposeful misrepresentation. Jordan is too smart to believe his risible 'solution'. He knows the Jewish IQ average isn't 115, for all the reasons Vox has stated. He knows about the IQ communication gap that Vox has described. He knows you can't do undergraduate tier things like pretend all Jews are Ashkenazi, and white's don't include hispanic whites, and all gentiles are white for gods sake, etc, etc.

Suspend your critical thinking and pretend his premises aren't false. Even if you accept his bizarrely false premises (all jews are genetically Ashkenazi, there are no gentiles who aren't white with IQ's above 145 etc), his argument falls apart if you compare representations of even a mythical Jewish population of >145 vs Asians and Indians PLUS whites in American sectors. Particularly sectors in America open to international labour forces, such as universities, and tech companies in Silicon Valley, and Hollywood, and banking, and media, and finance etcetera. I asked him to redo his arithmetic, but with respect to the >145 non-white gentile populations competing in international sectors. Guess why he didn't want to do that. Like, really, really.

Blogger Dave April 26, 2018 9:36 PM  

@21 Flair

FFS better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.

Blogger vanderleun April 26, 2018 9:37 PM  

Starting to drift into "There can be only one" territory, Vox. Keep in mind that too much perfection is a mistake.

Blogger Doktor Jeep April 26, 2018 9:41 PM  

Well the lines are being drawn.
Peterson's beta, gamma, and omega males
Vox Day's alpha and sigma males.

Blogger SirHamster April 26, 2018 9:47 PM  

What's odd to me is the deja-vu from the defensive reactions.

The excuses remind me of those given for Spencer/Anglin.

"he's fighting the good fight!"
"he dindu nuffin!"

Makes it feel like an Alt-Retard swarm. Overlap of their demographic's cognitive range? Shilling?

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 26, 2018 9:49 PM  

They've graduated from Dick Spencer to Jordan Peterson. Still retard.

Blogger Cedric April 26, 2018 9:56 PM  

To comment on the rhetorical jab, that many of my cohort are going to side there on something which to anyone that can do math is cut and dry mathematics is bitter to swallow, but it's truth. The rhetoric on that is on point, as it hits with truth given our proclivity towards jumping between e-celebs.

The diminutive of his name is spot on for dealing with those acting like children. The idiots coming in here and leaving poop are even proving the point further.

OpenID ghost-tiger88 April 26, 2018 9:57 PM  

I am a Canadian and a supporter of Jordie. I love the guy and I think he is a force for good, not just in Canada, but in the world. But I agree with Vox Day 100% on this issue and I have posted VD's arguments on Twitter (in Jordie's thread on this issue) as well as shared them with friends of mine who support Jordie and defend him on this issue. I also agree with VD's analysis of Jordie's supporters in this very post and I am proud to have counted myself on the side of the Dread Ilk in this contest. The truth will prevail. There can be only one!

Blogger SidVic April 26, 2018 9:57 PM  

@29 If correct, that is troubling. Pretty sure Vox is putting huge burr in JP's saddle. Having followed JP from early on I don't think that he can resist the urge to engage on these issues that he prefer not to. To do so is dangerous for him. He has a a lot to lose at this point.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener April 26, 2018 9:57 PM  

So many snowflakes melting.

OpenID yclepedbobali April 26, 2018 9:58 PM  

My younger brothers worship Jordan Peterson. Don't get me wrong. I know why he censored me - Duress, money, establishment status. Those are powerful forces. But I crafted my comment specifically so he didn't have to contend with it. No brother wars, right? All he needed to do was let it lie. But he censored it.

So I'm sorry, but absolutely Peterson was dishonest. I felt it palpably. It was actually like vertigo. My humanities degrees were sado-masochistic exercises in self-hatred and self-censorship and critical theory. To be censored by Peterson, like he was just another leftist 'professor' actually was a complex experience. It was like that moment in Braveheart where Saint Mel Gibson playing William Wallace realises he's been betrayed by Robert the Bruce. It was substantive. Particularly after hearing my little brothers father worship him. It was like attending university English classes and being taught critical theory trash and self-hatred, and un-truth and not-reality all over again. Then going home to spend time with my father. Except, instead of him restoring my sense of sanity, he doubled down with the dindus and purple-hairs on the un-truth and not-reality. A voice alone in the desert.

Absent Vox, I'd never have known about the IQ gap. Perhaps it explains events in my own life. Why would Peterson hide that? I'm not a coward and a failure because I state brazenly obvious truth to a gentleman I've given money too, considerable money, because he tells others to state truth. It's all in my head is it. Just like cultural marxism doesn't exist.

I forgive Jordan. The duress, the money in the balance, his station and social cachet. Lets be honest. I'd rather be censored then have his Canadian political career be derailed by association with some right wing thug asking questions passed him that can't be answered.

So let me put it this way. I'll vote for Jordan if he runs. But I'd vote for Vox ahead of Jordan if they were competing for the same ticket.

It is the height of hypocrisy, and I mean that, like, crystalline, quintessence of dictionary definition Plato higher reality hypocrisy, for pupils in the school of Peterson to attack Vox for defending truth. Just ridiculous. I'm sure he's learned his lesson and we won't be hearing more about this question.

As Vox says, the larger issue is that it's the wrong question. Self-serving low-trust minority majorities of all hues will tear our tender, mild European societies to shreds if we don't start understanding the rules of this game. That's why Jordan is potentially do dangerous, if his arch-individualism schtick lends itself to the perpetuation of dangerous myths that will and are being exploited.




Blogger Damn Crackers April 26, 2018 9:59 PM  

Be careful Vox. You're going to lower the Jewish IQ so much that you'll turn the Ashkenazim into Gypsies.

Blogger Ransom Smith April 26, 2018 10:00 PM  

Funniest thing the Dread Ilk ever did was in Ethan Van Sciver's live chat, after Sciver said Vox was like Charles Manson the Ilk started referring to Sciver as piggy. Shit even made Chuck Dixon laugh.
I for one would find a satirical "Exploits of the Dread Ilk" novel to be very amusing and entertaining.

Who do I harass to make that a reality?

Blogger Bellguard April 26, 2018 10:01 PM  

The comments insofar have generally reflected a failed understanding of the underlying reasons for each side of this post.

There are legitimate reasons to disagree with Vox’s emphasis on the importance of this and deeper ramifications that it will have. But I have yet to see them voiced.

I was hoping for some good takes on this one.

Blogger Cary April 26, 2018 10:02 PM  

People defending him, when one of your key identities is that you are a fearless intellectual devoted to truth, being shady with the truth is a big problem. And with responses such as @29 recounts, it's becoming clear that he isn't being truthful.

On a more personal reaction, I have been amazed that he is seen as such a father figure/role model for young men. He is not a very masculine guy. This isn't to denigrate him. His personality was probably to his benefit in his clinical work, but it's not strong or inspiring. The one thing I did appreciate was his seeming honesty, but now not so much.

Blogger Flair1239 April 26, 2018 10:03 PM  

All of which may be true. I say lots of shit is wrong. But you are saying Peterson is intentionally lying.

You have not demonstrated that he is lying or even that the statistics he cited are wrong or presented out of context.

I repeat, Stefan Molyneaux has cited the same information (Ashkhanzai Jew IQ 120) repeatedly. So have many others.

You keep quoting Peterson as calling you cowardly. I think you are taking the issue personally and I think this path is counter productive.

Blogger Nell Fenwick April 26, 2018 10:13 PM  

Never have been into Canadian philosophers. Dated a few Mounties, however. Eh.

Blogger septentrionist April 26, 2018 10:13 PM  

"how can a philosopher"

To be fair, I'm not sure JP has claimed to be a philosopher. His academic position is professor of psychology. I of course would never take anything a psychology professor (a Canadian one, to boot) said seriously. Based on that hermeneutic, I immediately recognized him as an "Alt-Lite"/cuckservative type of "saving liberalism from itself" figure. In his trademark "make your bed" talks, he rarely criticizes the underlying objectives of college activists, only their methods. When he does critique goals, it is only the most extreme and insane, and one gets the feeling that it is done more because "this is how we got the Third Reich" type of argument rather than a sharp disagreement with ultimate objectives. This type of person is actually more dangerous to the Alt-Right than SJWs, since he represents a sane, self-critical version of progressivism.

In general, it'll be interesting to see the sane people on the left attempt to put the asylum back in order and the inmates in their place. A few examples of this are Steven Pinker admitting the Alt-Right is right about most things, MIT Technology Review also admitting the Alt-Right is right about heritability of IQ, and Rahm Emanuel trying to explain to people why Trump isn't going to be impeached. To me, JP is of a piece with this kind of "uh, guys, we can't actually just kill all the white Christians" type of attempt to prevent leftism from self-destructing, rather than trying to actually overturn it.

Blogger Vaughan Williams April 26, 2018 10:16 PM  

Hypocrisy is the English (and Canadian) way. Jordan Peterson wouldn't be such a lovable Canadian if he wasn't true to his Hypocratic Heritage. Hypocrisy is the glue that binds British society together, otherwise we'd all realize that we are a mish-mash of nations and ethnicities, four Irish kingdoms, two Welsh kingdoms, a Roman kingdom in York, Scots, Cornwall, Devon, Anglia, Mercia, etc.

Blogger Nate April 26, 2018 10:20 PM  

JP is very wrong and he made a complete ass of himself. For the record I was not excusing his behavior.

I have a personal policy about not accusing people of lying without a long term pattern on display. I just don't like it. I still don't think Peterson's jackassery here rose to the level of deliberate lying. But there are plenty of bad behaviors that don't involve telling a lie.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine April 26, 2018 10:20 PM  

"You keep quoting Peterson as calling you cowardly."

You still have no idea what you're talking about.

Just stop talking before you look even more disabled.

Blogger SidVic April 26, 2018 10:21 PM  

39. yclepedbobali- would you care to re-post your comment here? I, for one, am extremely interested. sounds like JP might be panicking a bit. Also i saw the Martel guys comment. Did he not cover everything pertinent?

OpenID yclepedbobali April 26, 2018 10:21 PM  

@Flair1239 29
Do you know how to read? No one can read Vox's work without concluding that the 115 IQ figure, let alone 120 IQ, is a myth.

@Bellguard
We get it. He's a precious singular advocate. So he should leave these questions alone.

Blogger Uncle John's Band April 26, 2018 10:23 PM  

42. Bellguard

"The comments insofar have generally reflected a failed understanding of the underlying reasons for each side of this post.

There are legitimate reasons to disagree with Vox’s emphasis on the importance of this and deeper ramifications that it will have. But I have yet to see them voiced.

I was hoping for some good takes on this one."


Perhaps you could share your "legitimate reasons" rather than posturing and waiting for others to think for you.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine April 26, 2018 10:25 PM  

@Raghav not sure if troll, or actually that deluded and psychotic.

Blogger Uncle John's Band April 26, 2018 10:25 PM  

45. Raghav Hegde

No one cares.

Blogger Bellguard April 26, 2018 10:25 PM  

Flair, based on your comments, you should consider changing your name to Feel.

Blogger Uncle John's Band April 26, 2018 10:26 PM  

@ 54. Azure Amaranthine

I think Vox broke him.

Blogger John April 26, 2018 10:27 PM  

Thank you for being a good example, Vox. For most of us, the temptation to take the easy path is very great.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 26, 2018 10:28 PM  

Hey, Raghead and Rambam (presuming againt probability you're not the same person). You were banned for lying. Remember?

Blogger Carl Philipp April 26, 2018 10:30 PM  

@33
"What's odd to me is the deja-vu from the defensive reactions.

The excuses remind me of those given for Spencer/Anglin."

They have similar target audiences: young men with no purpose or direction and whose lives seem desperate and hopeless.

Blogger BA 117 April 26, 2018 10:32 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger BA 117 April 26, 2018 10:34 PM  

Jordan Peterson is just another freaking baby boomer...
He and his whole generation deserve the coming boomercide.

Blogger Mastermind April 26, 2018 10:37 PM  

Peterson should rant about The Jews instead so the left can successfully destroy him and remove another obstacle from their total dominion over every segment of culture.

Blogger Bellguard April 26, 2018 10:37 PM  

@Uncle John

I come here to read and occasionally make offhand comments. There are enough opinions here already that lack solid understanding of the material.

Critiquing the quality of takes here is not posturing and waiting for others to think for you. I’m not a doctor but I know poor care when I see it. *cough cough* England *cough*

Blogger Carl Philipp April 26, 2018 10:37 PM  

@47
"When he does critique goals, it is only the most extreme and insane, and one gets the feeling that it is done more because "this is how we got the Third Reich" type of argument rather than a sharp disagreement with ultimate objectives."

Uhhhhhhh
What?
He blasts "equality of outcome" pretty hard, both in emphatically rejecting it because gulags, and in explaining how and why it is absolutely a guaranteed failure.

Blogger Dave April 26, 2018 10:39 PM  

@Snidely "presuming againt probability you're not the same person"

Doubtful.

https://plus.google.com/114941405832264847594

Blogger Flair1239 April 26, 2018 10:41 PM  

Evidently Stefan Molyneaux cannot read either, as he has cited that statistic on numerous occasions.

Blogger Samuel Nock April 26, 2018 10:47 PM  

To give Stefan some credit, he has called out Jewish double standards on immigration etc. I don't think Stefan can be put into the same category as Peterson at this point. Stefan has indicated a degree of willingness to "go there" but has generally stayed out of the JQ fray. If and when he takes it head on, then we can judge his integrity. I have higher expectations for Stefan that for Peterson on this point.

Blogger Unknown April 26, 2018 10:48 PM  

@51 Sidvic

Look I'm a non-entity. I have no interest in de-railing Peterson as the single credentialed member of the Canadian academy publicly if vaguely sympathetic to aspects of non-left thought. The work he is doing against the Slaaneshi on gender identity/perversion and the Tzeentch on relativism and post-modernism is too valuable to impale him on, of all things, 'the Jewish Question'. So I'm not going to post the original. I've summarised it satisfactorily and as I keep saying, the central critique is all Vox's original and outstanding work. You can read that, right here, so conveniently, on his blog.

I also have less then zero interest in starting an internecine war of purity spiralling.

I don't expect Jordan to have Vox's intellectual courage.

We keep giving him his get-out of jail free card, which is the fact that he is subject to vicious anti-free speech laws in Canada. I'm more understanding then Vox is. But I'm not as smart as Vox is. I also haven't made the sacrifices to intellectual integrity that Vox has. My opinion is that whilst what Jordan did here is understandable from a standpoint of pragmatism it is a grave offence. Particularly from someone whose public esteem is based precisely on their intellectual integrity.

But my preference is to give him the benefit of the doubt and leave it there. That may not be Vox's preference.

Come on man, if you've been following you have to know what JP didn't cover in Martel's comment.




Blogger David The Good April 26, 2018 10:49 PM  

Bogey wrote:Funniest thing the Dread Ilk ever did was in Ethan Van Sciver's live chat, after Sciver said Vox was like Charles Manson the Ilk started referring to Sciver as piggy. Shit even made Chuck Dixon laugh.

That was a fun night.

Blogger YclepedBobAli April 26, 2018 11:06 PM  

This is the position I would take if I was part of this 'alt-right' the Guardian says exists, whilst saying cultural marxism doesn't.

I would be assured that the myth of 1 sd superior average IQ entailing and explaining Jewish supremacy is going to be sundered, soon.

As I said to Jordan (assuming it was him, not an employee moderating his website) if the myth looks so obviously decrepit to a random like me, how long does he think it can possibly be sustained at large?

Even left wing plagiarising swine like Fareed Zakaria, others like Pinker, the eternal Gladwell, and people still flippantly using the 115-120IQ figure like Molyneux will not be able to withstand the truth for long. In fact, it will be an interesting test. Who is co-opted and continues to propound the myth? Who updates? Ask Molymeme to do a video. He needs content.

This ultimately isn't about Peterson, and more about the political nature of the myth that Jewish IQ explains Jewish supremacy. So spread Vox's work. Because if you read it, you can't possibly disregard it. It's impossible. Even if you want to. Even if you're in the academy.

What we need next is something on the Chinese IQ myth. The jews are all going to be chewed up like either dim sim noodles or curry just like everyone else. The Celestials around me think very highly of themselves. I'd like those photo-copiers to receive a slight reality dose. We aren't Xi Xinping's satrapy just yet.

Anyway, enough from me.

Blogger MickDundee April 26, 2018 11:13 PM  

The JQ is a big red pill to swallow. It breaks some people. Easier to stay plugged into the (((Matrix))).

Blogger MickDundee April 26, 2018 11:16 PM  

Better to cuck, eh goyim?

OpenID nikephoros-ii April 26, 2018 11:27 PM  

We (well, I) know Peterson is being dishonest because the figures he's constantly telling people to read, like Jung and Solzenitsyn, talked regularly about Jewish influence.

One of Jung's critiques of Freud and the other (((Viennese psychoanalysts))) was that it was damaging to apply Jewish psychology to gentiles, and many of his more specific critiques of their methods line up very much with what we see from the Neo-Marxist crowd today.

Which is not surprising, since Freudian thought was adopted by everyone from the Soviets to the Frankfurt School to consumer propaganda to push various narratives, all of them damaging to Western society.

I'd actually suggest people to read Jung's "Civilizations in Transition" -- or at least chapters on The State of Psychotherapy Today, Religion as the Counterbalance to Mass-Mindedness, and the Position of the West on the Question of Religion. His thoughts on both Freud, the problems with the modern church, and the Soviet Union/Communism, all from a psychological perspective, are fascinating.

Peterson gets his concept of individualism from Jung, but Jung was certainly not an individualist in the perverted modern sense.

Anyways, there's absolutely no way that Peterson is not aware of Jung's thoughts on the Jews. There's also no way he's not aware that Solzenitsyn wrote an entire book blaming the Jews for the Bolshevik Revolution, especially because someone gave him a copy on video at one of his lectures.

And remember, Solzenitsyn is who Peterson constantly cites as his authority on what went on in the USSR.

In fact, early on I actually believed that Peterson was subtly pointing people in the direction of the JQ because he is CONSTANTLY telling people to read writers who talked about it. Nearly all of his biggest influences are considered "anti-semites".

Are Jung and Solzenitsyn pathological far-right cowardly anti-semite conspiracy theorists who don't face life forthrightly?

Blogger SidVic April 26, 2018 11:32 PM  

69 -starting an internecine war of purity spiralling... derailing. OK, fair enuf, but it must have been a hell of comment if it could do all that:) I will say that it is bitter pill to swallow from a guy that is preaching intellectual courage. But i agree that one must pick their battles and that peterson is correct to do so. They will cut his throat given the chance.

Blogger tublecane April 26, 2018 11:36 PM  

@3- The thing that stood out to me as dishonest, not knowing much about statistics but knowing a thing or two about history, is how he starts out the article, essay, or whatever it was by saying "so-called 'Jewish Question.'" Scare quotes and "so-called." Which would be a bit of overkill even if you don't think it's a legitimate question. Except that it's tied to Nazis, due to which everything but virtue-signalling gets thrown out the window.

I know the Nazis have forever tarnished the JQ catchphrase. But it is a legitimate Question, one which precedes the Nazis, and one which isn't exclusive to anti-semites. Jews themselves asked it in earnest, and in my opinion continue doing so to this day. Even if they don't use those precise words. They do so every time they complain about the supposed rising incidence of hate crimes and every time they contemplate moving to Zion.

If Peterson is to address JQ, he ought to know what it means. In which case he's either being disingenuous or grossly ignorant. Which I find annoying. Because I'm just an idiot blabbing on a message board, and I take more care about such things.

Blogger tublecane April 26, 2018 11:45 PM  

@20- "He does appear to oppose white nationalism and Nazism"

So do I. Or at least what people usually mean when they say "white nationalism," which isn't nationalism at all. I remain what I call a sub-nationalist because I think most modern nations are too big, but I am all for the self-determination of discrete ethnic peoples.

That being said, I don't let my anti-Nazism get in the way of Noticing the importance of such things as the JQ. Or the German Question, the Irish Question, and so forth.

The alt-right can have allies, absolutely. It has the alt-lite and the alt-West, as well as paleo-conservatives (which I mostly am), some libertarians and conservatives if they have their heads screwed straight, and even some civic nationalists.

Blogger tublecane April 26, 2018 11:52 PM  

@39- That moment you describe from Braveheart is one of my favorite from all of cinema. The face of betrayal and the face of having been betrayed.

Blogger MickDundee April 26, 2018 11:57 PM  

If he starts down this path he might start questioning simple math and the Holyhoax. Well said on your poast.

Blogger septentrionist April 26, 2018 11:58 PM  

@76 "Except that it's tied to Nazis" Nobody under 30 gives a shit about a German political party from 80 years ago. Germany barely exists anymore.

"it is a legitimate Question, one which precedes the Nazis"

The Jewish question is coterminate with the Jewish people who, to their credit, used to direct their neuroticism productively inward. This self-questioning Nietzsche abhorred but can be productive as addressed in Heinigger. It is not Hitler, but the great patriarch of Israel Isaiah, whom the Church venerates as a saint, who described the Jews as "an unbelieving people, who walk in a way that is not good after their own thoughts." (quoted by coethnic St. Paul in Romans, at which point the JQ was already referenced with a certain self-awareness) After killing one prophet too many the self-critical Jews of the Torah turned into the loophole-finding Jews of the Talmud.

Blogger Garuna April 27, 2018 12:00 AM  

I'm starting to think Jordan Peterson is more of a performer than an intellectual.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6diOTW3deU

Blogger Unknown April 27, 2018 12:01 AM  

You're wrong about Cormac McCarthy. REPENT!

Blogger John Best April 27, 2018 12:03 AM  

I read this post, then searched you and Twitter, it is as expected. I liked Jordan Peterson a little at the start, I listened to him a few times, but then I just found there wasn't very much to what he was talking about. I also noticed all the Conservatives falling over themselves to get him on their shows and the whole Faith Goldy thing. So yeah I haven't cared what he talks about since then.

Blogger Quicksilver75 April 27, 2018 12:05 AM  

It would have been fascinating to see how Jordan would have fared had he been intellectually honest. Probably suffered the same fate as Richard Lynn, Arthur Jensen, Sam Francis & Paul Gottfried. I.e. Exiled to the margins w/ income streams throttled.

Blogger tublecane April 27, 2018 12:08 AM  

@47- It's true in a sense that the sort of person you describe!--the Good Progressive or Pragmatic Progressive--is more dangerous to the alt-right than SJWs. Because we all know that SJWs fail at most everything. Except of course multiplying and feeding off our civilization like a virus. But that can only go so far.

If the left had proceeded as it was going under Midcentury Establishment Liberalism, before the New Left--you know, the Establishment that built the New Deal and won WWII--the alt-right wouldn't be so inevitable. Granted, that was the Establishment that set the Republic on a path to ultimate collapse in 1965. But if it hadn't been for the Long March through the institutions and the madness of PC and SJW-ism, probably not enough people would have noticed in time. If we have noticed in time. Jury's still out on that.

Anyway, Peterson, Pinker, and other people who aren't even Canadian are smart and usually honest enough to admit absurdities and separate the truly evil or dangerous from the merely wrong or misinformed. They are the types who could run a Managerial State, and the alt-right would be much less popular if we had a competent Managerial State.

Blogger Samuel Nock April 27, 2018 12:11 AM  

Potential Meme of the Day material:

"In order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive." -- Jordan "Don't Mention the Jews or I'll Call You a Coward and a Loser" Peterson

https://www.taleas.com/memes/in-order-to-be-able-to-think-you-have-to-risk-being-offensive-dr-jordan-peterson.html

Blogger wreckage April 27, 2018 12:19 AM  

@39, I hear ya. And it's difficult when,as I am, you're following along with guys who are way out of your own intellectual league, and suddenly two difficult characters, both of whom have passed the heuristic tests, go rocketing off in different directions.

As for the "types of male" dispute; I work hard at being Delta. That's why I'm disturbed. I've got two guys who outrank me, each of which has proven to be useful and productive, and now my "useful and productive" heuristic is directly challenged by the contradiction.

On the whole though, Vox seems to present a pretty water-tight argument that Ashkenazi are productive, driven, solid IQ but really no more so than Brits, for example. I don't see that as an insult or a problem, but Peterson has flown way off the handle over it.

I suspect this is because a lot of Classical Liberals think nepotism is a dirty, filthy sin, rather than obvious and necessary human behaviour. If so, Peterson is going to have to address that idea in his own mind, because his overall thesis regarding the deep roots of human behaviour is actually totally incompatible with the notion that nepotism is some sort of horror.

The intellectual crime of the CL and the Libertarian is to think that the individual of dignity and worth as they conceptualize the individual, must logically not be a part of group action. This is plainly anti-human and I believe Hayek would have taken them to task for it.

Blogger Brick Hardslab April 27, 2018 12:22 AM  

JP tried to stay away from the third rail. When he couldn't instead of saying nothing, he went sideways and punted badly.

He should have just kept quiet about it. He should still be wealthy and still have his integrity intact. He chose wealth, safety, influence and reputation with the 'respectable' society.

I hope I would do better but we're all flawed.

Blogger FUBARwest April 27, 2018 12:25 AM  

@Flair What makes you think Stefan making the same mistake would excuse JP making his mistake?

As someone already said, Stefan stays away from the topic most of the time and in his recent video about The Ten Commandments with Duke Pesta he actively switches the topic as to not disagree with his guest about it.

Like others have said, reread Vox's post. It's clear that the 115 number isn't correct.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch April 27, 2018 12:31 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener April 27, 2018 12:40 AM  

@69 We keep giving him his get-out of jail free card, which is the fact that he is subject to vicious anti-free speech laws in Canada.

But we shouldn't. All JP had to say was, "Speaking the truth is often illegal in Canada so I can't discuss that." Everyone would have known what he meant and he would have gotten bonus points for criticizing oppressive laws.

Instead he chose to lie and attack those of us who are pursuing the truth.

Blogger Jack Amok April 27, 2018 12:43 AM  

On a more personal reaction, I have been amazed that he is seen as such a father figure/role model for young men. He is not a very masculine guy.

Lots of young men have it pretty bad. Their dad's kicked out of the house, or allowed to stay but emasculated by a feminist society the average Delta - and a lot of Beta's too - just aren't equipped to deal with. School is an estrogen-fest, their food is awash in ersatz-estrogen, their entertainment is Grrl-Power and dumb boys...

Doesn't take much in that environment. Hell, Jordie might be the first man they've ever seen that didn't apologize for breathing too loud. I commend him for what he's done there, but like other's have pointed out, there is something off about him.

I'm disappointed this hullabaloo had to happen.

Blogger FUBARwest April 27, 2018 1:04 AM  

The biggest issue is the hypocrisy. You're mantra cant be "Speak the Truth or at least dont lie" and then go out and lie.

It smells like he's seriously considering running for PM and this was an attempt to make him more palatable for his Canadian citizens. Sacrificing the truth for personal gain doesnt end well and he preaches that. He should know better.

I'm sure 70k a month also weighs on him..

Blogger tublecane April 27, 2018 1:04 AM  

@87- That Classical Liberal worldview, despite being post-Enlightenment and rationalistic, is very Anglo-American. They know people cheat, obviously. And they are aware of extended kinship networks and communities looking out for eachother. But they can't for some reason conceive of people ruthlessly taking advantage on a regular basis. They don't have that backalley Third World marketplace mentality.

Hayek was Austrian, of course. I don't know what special insights that might have lent him.

What would Murray Rothbard, American Jew, say?

Blogger septentrionist April 27, 2018 1:15 AM  

Just to give one more example of "the Jews will interpret everything in the most legalistic way that suits them" is the account in Matthew and Mark of the last words of Jesus. "Eli," according to the evangelists is translated directly as "my God" whereas the Jews interpreted it as calling on Elijah (note the same first three letters), i.e. the Jews assumed that Jesus, nearly dead on the cross, was attempting to formulate a legalistic justification of something or other, rather than guilelessly crying out in a moment of pain.

So the "Jewish question" is a fundamental component of Christianity, not something that was dreamt up in the 19th century.

Blogger Bobiojimbo April 27, 2018 1:29 AM  

You're right, Vox. You're absolutely right. I wasn't aware of the fallacy of the Jewish intelligence argument until you pointed it out. Many of the people I listen to quote it as gospel, and, quite frankly, I never cared to look into it or challenge them on the subject. Never even thought of it.

So, how do we spread the truth of this study?

Blogger Laramie Hirsch April 27, 2018 1:44 AM  

Peterson's actions with the truth in this case correlate with what VD has taught me about moderates: they shoot you in the back when you charge out of the pillbox.

OpenID yclepedbobali April 27, 2018 1:46 AM  

JP's twitter feed. No one is making the argument.

Blogger Bobiojimbo April 27, 2018 1:46 AM  

@45 Hey RH. I've successfully gotten under your skin, that's what I've been successful at.

Regardless of my accomplishments, or lack there of, this still isn't your country, your constitution, or your culture. Go back to India, make it great, and I will praise your accomplishments. Stay here and continue to shit on us "white trash," and I will gladly back anyone who wishes to deport you.

Blogger #6277 Hammer April 27, 2018 2:32 AM  

Now this looks more like gamma behaviour.

Blogger LP999-16 April 27, 2018 2:47 AM  

Thank you Vox for this post.

For those defending JP, why are they? And it is unfortunate to defend or give the benefit of the doubt to those whom do not deserve it.

I want the truth no matter what it is as does those around here although I doubt I'm dread ilk or ilk.

There is no poor Jordie talk from me.

Blogger John Deer April 27, 2018 3:02 AM  

Agree 100 percent with you about how JBP has has lied about the JQ, Vox.

That being said, why does Mike Cernovich get a free pass?
We know Mike is aware of what's going on (He said so many times prior to "hielgate") but for the past 6 months he hasn't just not talked about the JQ- he has lied about and misrepresented it far worse than even JBP has. Im not in any way trying to call you out- just want you to be sure that your friends are actually friends and not just using you in some game.

Blogger Miguel April 27, 2018 3:22 AM  

VD, I think that this has to do with the lack of right wingers who "stand" against SJWs. I am not saying Jordie did, but that people - specially mil'als - who think he did.

Those mil'als dont realize that Jordie was proped up to be the acceptable "opposition" (just like lil Bennie Shappiro).


I feel sorry for them but I think - nay, I am sure - you did them a favor by swatting jordie away from their shrines.

They will thank you later, VD.

Stand strong.

Blogger S. Thermite April 27, 2018 3:43 AM  

"Let me make one thing clear. I do not give a fragment of a flying fuck about poor little Jordie or any other public figure with whom I am not personally acquainted. I have not read his books nor watched his videos."

Vox, by this point I have absolutely nothing to prove to you or the rest of the Ilk. I've been reading since the WND days, commenting since before the SFWA tried to kick you out, and contributing time and money to almost every book, fundraiser, and startup you've mentioned here. You have the emails and receipts to prove it, and the reason I joined Twitter and GAB was because of your marching orders. And I don't expect a single "Thank You" because you've benefited me. I still say "Thank You" with respect, will continue to do so.

However, if someone said about you what you said (and I just quoted) you saying about Peterson, I would have nothing but contempt for them. In that way, I guess we are similar...I cut you more slack then them because I'm acquainted with a large body of your arguments. It was you though who taught me "Don't shoot to the right" and "I don't play gotcha game". I will not share with you in tearing Peterson down for one fallacious argument, especially in light of how you (and also me, since I respect your opinion) don't tear down Cernovich or Milo when they do the same. If I can overlook their foibles and lies, I can also do the same for Peterson. Especially since (to the disappointment of myself and others) you are evidently making your comments with less knowledge about the man and his overall philosophy than many freshman college students.

Blogger Tupla-J April 27, 2018 3:47 AM  

@102 I think it has a lot to do with MC being a journalist first and foremost, not someone who tries to pose as and pass for a serious philosopher.

OpenID simplytimothy April 27, 2018 3:57 AM  

OT: "
With Kanye West going full on alt-right on us, they've just found their best recruiter ever."

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/why-kanye-wests-pro-trump-tweets-are-a-real-threat-w519572


Very last paragraph.

NRO hardest hit!

Blogger Anno Ruse April 27, 2018 4:07 AM  

"When I get it wrong and you can conclusively prove it, then show me!"

Isn't this a blog where people are constantly told "it's not about me, don't make it about me, I will BAN and SPAM you if you make it about me"?

I can see how this invites critique.

Blogger Troushers April 27, 2018 4:27 AM  

...reliance on *earthly* teachers

Blogger wreckage April 27, 2018 4:36 AM  

I think the central problem with moderates is that they still think identity politics is *an idea* .

Blogger S. Thermite April 27, 2018 4:47 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger S. Thermite April 27, 2018 4:48 AM  

Philippians 1:15-18 "It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice."

My problem isn't with those who point out that Peterson isn't a Christian, it's with those who superficially disavow him along with the truths he's acknowledging while focusing on the lies that the Sam Harrises and Richard Dawkins of the world have spun. The perceived enemy you attack hardest is the one you're inadvertently telling others is the most worthy of consideration.

Blogger VD April 27, 2018 5:04 AM  

That being said, why does Mike Cernovich get a free pass?

I have absolutely no idea what Mike has written on the subject. I am not the intellectual police. And I don't watch videos. While I understand their importance - hence Voxiversity - it is not my favored medium.

Blogger Troushers April 27, 2018 5:07 AM  

I assume JPs dishonest argumentation over the Jewish question is because it is a tarpit which engulfs and destroys dissident intellectuals, and I said as much over at his post.

Vox, is it strategically sound to articulate discrediting, though perfectly accurate, truths that will forever bar you from mainstream acceptance, society, or influence? Seems to me Peterson is f-d both ways.

Blogger Cogniblog April 27, 2018 5:08 AM  

I do not give a fragment of a flying fuck about poor little Jordie or any other public figure with whom I am not personally acquainted.

Profanity is for corruptors of the innocent and soul eaters. You would be better off undertaking drunkenness than using profanity. Shame on you.

Blogger VD April 27, 2018 5:09 AM  

I think it has a lot to do with MC being a journalist first and foremost, not someone who tries to pose as and pass for a serious philosopher.

That too.

However, if someone said about you what you said (and I just quoted) you saying about Peterson, I would have nothing but contempt for them.

That is a mistake, because you would be having contempt for someone telling you the truth about me. Just wait. You clearly have a false image of Peterson and do not understand the significance of this one singular action.

Once you prostitute yourself, you are forever a prostitute.

Blogger VD April 27, 2018 5:10 AM  

Profanity is for corruptors of the innocent and soul eaters. You would be better off undertaking drunkenness than using profanity. Shame on you.

Fuck off. If I wanted speech police, I'd invite SJW readers.

Blogger Rabid Ratel April 27, 2018 5:11 AM  

These comment, and those made on the previous posts about JP, aptly demonstrate that most people simply cannot understand dialectic.

S.Thermite It is not about the truths that he is speaking, but his unwillingness to even allow discussion of the lies that he is propagating. In that, he is no better than any lefty. To me, it is actually worse than the lefties, because he is supposed to be propagating the truth.

Blogger VD April 27, 2018 5:13 AM  

Vox, is it strategically sound to articulate discrediting, though perfectly accurate, truths that will forever bar you from mainstream acceptance, society, or influence? Seems to me Peterson is f-d both ways.

It depends what your objectives are. Perhaps now some of you will finally believe me when I tell you that I harbor no dreams of mainstream acceptance, leadership of anything, or media fame. I don't want to be Prime Minister of Canada. I don't even want to be the local dogcatcher.

Blogger Rabid Ratel April 27, 2018 5:16 AM  

VD wrote:Once you prostitute yourself, you are forever a prostitute.

People have been lied to for so long that they have no idea how degrading it is to even accept the premise of the lie. Can I say that the prince of this world, the father of lies, is very happy with JP for his stand on the JQ.

Better to stay out of the question than to give your soul to the devil, just to stay popular.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine April 27, 2018 5:20 AM  

"Profanity is for corruptors of the innocent and soul eaters."

The word you're looking for is "blasphemy", you snake.

Go ahead, tell me you're not an atheist. I dare you.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine April 27, 2018 5:23 AM  

If you can't afford to speak publicly on a topic, just don't.

Don't turn around and be a whore for your oppressors by backstabbing the people who trust you.

Remember that thing about millstones, necks, and the depths of the sea.

Blogger S. Thermite April 27, 2018 5:28 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira April 27, 2018 5:30 AM  

Try saving your dead father from the belly of the whale when your father is the father of lies.

Blogger S. Thermite April 27, 2018 5:30 AM  

"That is a mistake, because you would be having contempt for someone telling you the truth about me. Just wait. You clearly have a false image of Peterson and do not understand the significance of this one singular action.

Once you prostitute yourself, you are forever a prostitute."


Touche. I will be seeing Peterson in person next month and will keep an eye out (as I have been). I can't help but think that he's being held to a higher standard than many other authors you've addressed here though, especially considering your lack of knowledge of his body of work. I haven't thrown out Trump with the bathwater, or George R.R. Martin. The recent Cosby verdict may have me a little sensitive too- even the AP article yesterday acknowledged that he wouldn't be in this predicament if he hadn't been moralizing against common Black culture a decade or more ago. Smear the messenger.

Blogger Archella April 27, 2018 5:33 AM  

Jordan Peterson, built up a lot of good will, in a relatively short amount of time, among a broad class of dissenters, only to throw it in the garbage, for no real reason at all. Meanwhile, warriors, like Pat Buchanan, keep soldiering on, and don't get anywhere near the accolades. This is just the wheat separating from the chaff.

Blogger S. Thermite April 27, 2018 5:36 AM  

S.Thermite It is not about the truths that he is speaking, but his unwillingness to even allow discussion of the lies that he is propagating. In that, he is no better than any lefty. To me, it is actually worse than the lefties, because he is supposed to be propagating the truth.

I have not seen Peterson do that of which you speak, and I follow him on Twitter, but then again it seems that if I blink for a week the world changes there. Thanks for the honest critique...I'll keep an eye out.

Blogger Resident Moron™ April 27, 2018 5:39 AM  

"It depends what your objectives are. Perhaps now some of you will finally believe me when I tell you that I harbor no dreams of mainstream acceptance, leadership of anything, or media fame. I don't want to be Prime Minister of Canada. I don't even want to be the local dogcatcher."

This is a bigger factor, I think, than most people understand. The desire for intellectual and/or moral respectability is a huge lure for most people.

The funny thing is that JP himself would counsel young people to be very careful about whose opinion of us we choose to care about.

Blogger Howard Stone April 27, 2018 5:46 AM  

I’ve been following Jordan Peterson for about a year maybe two. He’s been helpful when it comes to educating people about SJWs especially now because of the exposure he is getting.

But for all of his lectures on Christianity, he doesn’t believe the Gospel, he believes the Gospel is some sort of Freudian creation of man’s evolutionary and psychological nature etc..., which means to me that he is preaching another Gospel and another Jesus.

I became even more suspicious of him when his Random House gave him a book deal and even paid for his around the world book tour.

Blogger GithYankee April 27, 2018 5:51 AM  

Wish I was in here earlier - nobody will ever see, but here is an EXCELLENT article out of the alt-white, hitting the Jews on every issue.
https://ideasanddata.wordpress.com/2018/04/24/the-jewish-question-an-empirical-examiniation/

Blogger Anno Ruse April 27, 2018 5:54 AM  

"I don't even want to be the local dogcatcher."

But how much of that is genuine and how much of that is "don't talk about me, don't even look at me, FUCK! someone mentioned me, I have to move to a new town" bitchboy logic?

The Vox Day couldn't handle the heat in an American kitchen, so he chose to raise his children in an Italian oven instead. Did they sink the boats, as you advised, oh Vox Day?

No. Of course not. Because you do not advise. You do not instruct. You are a simple man who operates a simple blog and if anyone ever suggests otherwise you simply ignore them. What position do you take? The safest position of all. The do-nothing position. Oh, you say something. You say everything. But always from an intellectual distance. When Nebraska is burning in nuclear fire no doubt the Vox Day will make a quippy little blog post about it.

You intellectually understand the need for a Breivik but lack the balls to be that man. So what use are you? You deride the conservatives for having done nothing to conserve, but what are you actually doing? You're a bookseller. At least Peterson puts his ass on the line by risking a trial for hate speech. What do you risk, Teddy? What do you risk?

Blogger Uncle John's Band April 27, 2018 6:02 AM  

127. GithYankee

"Wish I was in here earlier - nobody will ever see, but here is an EXCELLENT article out of the alt-white, hitting the Jews on every issue."

There's a few who'll turn up at the tail end. I have a knack for that myself.

OpenID crapulux April 27, 2018 6:10 AM  

I agree with VD's argument.

However, Peterson remains an asset. Sure, he's not as redpilled as I'd like, at least in public. But he's a good compromise. He's soft enough to be allowed fame and television exposure, which allows him to at least give a taste of truth to quite a lot of bluepilled normies. He's a moderate, but at least he's pulling some heads out of the sand, and he makes them more receptive to a larger dose of truth.

In fact, if JP told too much, this would repel the normies and he would be useless. One can only digest a certain amount of hard truths in one day (and the amount seems to depend on IQ...), and a truth overdose triggers rejection! So, this bullshit JQ post is actually more useful as it is. It's lube to help the normies swallow the rest of JP's pitch. Even if it's actually full of lies, it is necessary.

I think this is a manifestation of the IQ communications gap. Vox expects everyone to be able to handle the truth. Aint gonna happen, it has to be cut up into small, easy to process bits, and not delivered at once.

Also, give the man a break, a few short years ago he was a proper classical liberal Canadian academic... and now he's yelling "The marxist barbarians want your soul!" On stage! His transformation has been quite... surprising to say the least! LOL.

Anyway. I would never fully trust a moderate of course, but I'd say his influence is positive.

Blogger VD April 27, 2018 6:14 AM  

I can't help but think that he's being held to a higher standard than many other authors you've addressed here though, especially considering your lack of knowledge of his body of work. I haven't thrown out Trump with the bathwater, or George R.R. Martin.

Of course he is held to a higher standard. He is a philosopher and a public intellectual. I hold my banker and my accountant to different and higher standards than my used car salesman and my favorite stripper too.

Peterson has conclusively proven to me that he is not an intellectual of integrity, unlike Martin van Creveld, Jerry Pournelle, Umberto Eco, Pat Buchanan, and other intellectuals I have known. I now put him in the popularizer category of David Reich, Nicholas Wade, and Richard Dawkins. That doesn't make him a bad man, just not someone I am inclined to take very seriously or at face value.

Blogger Troushers April 27, 2018 6:16 AM  

As a follow up then, if Peterson has a strategic goal of mainstreaming his form of dissent, for instance, against speech laws, is a dishonest dismissal of the Jewish question defensible, or is intellectual honesty never worth sacrificing?

Your explanation of the dialectic / rhetoric communication types is a clear signpost here that intellectual purity is less important than effectiveness, in certain conditions and for certain goals. At least, I interpret it so.

Blogger VD April 27, 2018 6:28 AM  

As a follow up then, if Peterson has a strategic goal of mainstreaming his form of dissent, for instance, against speech laws, is a dishonest dismissal of the Jewish question defensible, or is intellectual honesty never worth sacrificing?

It is not defensible. As I have repeatedly said, if he cannot address an issue honestly, he should not address it at all. He has a perfect excuse given Canadian speech laws.

Your explanation of the dialectic / rhetoric communication types is a clear signpost here that intellectual purity is less important than effectiveness, in certain conditions and for certain goals. At least, I interpret it so.

Then you don't understand what rhetoric is. What part of "there is no information content in rhetoric" do you not understand? There is no truth or falsehood or logic in rhetoric. It's gibberish.

Blogger #6277 Hammer April 27, 2018 7:44 AM  

Do tell. How many badass crusades have been on this year. How many Muslims have you impaled. You talk the talk, now walk the walk.

Blogger Duke Norfolk April 27, 2018 8:04 AM  

Holy crap, reading comprehension is apparently very difficult. Of course one needs to understand one's own limitations, and when you're in over your head - JUST SHUT UP.

But people being people, this will, alas, never happen.

Blogger Duke Norfolk April 27, 2018 8:19 AM  

Quicksilver75 wrote:It would have been fascinating to see how Jordan would have fared had he been intellectually honest.

FFS, to everybody who keeps saying some form of, "but if he told the truth they would crucify him", all he had to do was keep his mouth shut. Instead he chose to attack; in terrible form as Vox has laid out. And once he chose to attack, he is open to being corrected and, frankly, shredded for his incompetence and/or outright dishonesty in doing so.

It's not anymore complicated than that.

Blogger Peter Gent April 27, 2018 9:22 AM  

VD: Once you prostitute yourself, you are forever a prostitute.
Unless you repent and admit your error. All failures can be forgiven of those who are honest about them. Time will tell whether or not Peterson repents.

Blogger wreckage April 27, 2018 9:28 AM  

@130 that seems about right to me. My father said; "What's so special? All he's doing is repeating what used to be common sense." I don't think he's a philosopher of any kind, but he IS calling a lot of people's attention to the misery and foolishness of our society.

Still, if he's trying to walk the line of talking about the "wisdom" of Christianity without actually accepting it, well, that's a horribly dangerous tightrope, and few if any walk it without coming to grief. Even the desire to do so is a bad sign.

Blogger Shamgar April 27, 2018 9:42 AM  

He done goofed here, it is clear after reading JP's argument and then VD's and then ybobali's.
I like Peterson for at least bringing back the Biblical stories to the this lost generation, though he is missing the Truth in not fully believing and surrendering to It, ie He, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Several have commented on that there was always something "off" about JP. Well, that's what you were feeling, a "cultural" (((Judeo-Christianity))).

OpenID crapulux April 27, 2018 9:43 AM  

@135 Duke Norfolk - 'FFS, to everybody who keeps saying some form of, "but if he told the truth they would crucify him"'

Apologies for sounding just like this in my previous message -- I simply didn't mention "he should have shut up" because it was obvious and everyone including Vox already insisted on it.

While reading JP's "jewish question" rant, I really wondered why the hell he wrote that. Was he virtue signalling or something? It reads more like a hastily written rant, definitely not up to the standards I thought he would honor...

Oh well. This whole mess is quite disappointing, yet I still like the guy, nobody's perfect...

Blogger VD April 27, 2018 9:48 AM  

Unless you repent and admit your error. All failures can be forgiven of those who are honest about them. Time will tell whether or not Peterson repents.

And, of course, refrain from selling your body for sex.

Blogger Some Guy April 27, 2018 10:01 AM  

"He's done so much good that we shouldn't criticize him when he's running around calling people cowards and failures because they point out the obvious to him! Don't be mean to Jordie and make him cry!"

Some of us, myself included have a hard time dealing with your very cut throat attitude towards other people when they have crossed a line that you draw in the sand. Sometimes, admittedly because I am not the consummate intellectual that you are, I have a hard time understanding why you draw the lines in places that you do and why you defend those lines so incredibly hard. I understand you desire for the truth and in this, I actually agreed with your position. You mathematically proved that Jordan did not know what he was talking about.

"I do not know Jordan Peterson, but his incorrect and deceitful arguments and his unfair, unjustified attacks on his critics show him to be an inept and integrity-challenged coward who lacks commitment to the truth. The combination of his sudden success with his observable intellectual ineptitude suggests that he has been elevated by the mainstream media in order to provide a harmless, toothless, and non-Christian alternative to the failed conservative movement of William F. Buckley and the failed neoconservative movement of Bill Kristol and Ben Shapiro."

Then we get to this. He isn't a conservative. He isn't an alternative to conservative thought. He most assuredly isn't Christian. He does mean to help though. Deceit however, implies that he intends to deceive. Knowing how the mind works, he has built in his mind a lattice work of information from which he is trying to postulate a theory. Some of that information is wrong. I have a little grace for the man in this because I am forced to do the same thing every single day and kind of muddle through with my limited knowledge and capacity. But I watch you defend Trump when he isn't 100% intellectually pure in some of the things he says. He dismisses many critics when they call him on it. My issue isn't with your critique of Jordan's position, it's spot on. My issue was with your critique of the man. You are past ruthless Vox. You go into a borderline war fervor. It's like watching Rufio draw a line in the sand and declaring "I'm the Pan now!" Instead of pointing out where he is wrong and warning people to not listen to him when he speaks about IQ, you (seem to) instead wish to tear down all that he has brought to the table. That is limited at best, but he genuinely hates the far left and he has a large platform. He also wants to help young men get their lives together as well as tear down the old institutions that people like Jews use to network and keep themselves in power. There is possibility there. It's not something I can express in a purely intellectual sense Vox, I'm not built like you in this regard, but I watch you do this stuff and intuitively know that the water has been muddied and that somewhere in there, you have gone a bit too far in maligning a man who made a mistake by calling his entire character into question. I'm not trolling here Vox, and I would defend and have defended you in the same sense when I have spoken to left leaning individuals about your blog.

Blogger mgh April 27, 2018 10:17 AM  

#29 yclep: Thanks for the comment, you've slayed all the sympathetic JP angles presented in the comments of the earlier post. JP really is obfuscating the issue on purpose. Vox was right.

Blogger Peter Gent April 27, 2018 10:27 AM  

VD wrote:Unless you repent and admit your error. All failures can be forgiven of those who are honest about them. Time will tell whether or not Peterson repents.

And, of course, refrain from selling your body for sex.


You sound like Jesus telling the woman caught in adultery to "go and sin no more."

;-)

Blogger Go clones April 27, 2018 10:41 AM  

@141
Well said and I think lots of others here think the same. Was Person wrong on the JQ and IQ ... yup, for sure. Either wrong or dishonest or maybe both. VD arguments win the day.

But the crux of the matter is you don't throw out the baby with the bath water. JP is a largely successful weapon against the Leftists and that is the real battle. In the whole JP ... brings a huge net positive to the table. Discrediting him serves no real purpose except advantaging your own enemy. Many of the young men he wakes up ... will come over to our side in the end. Waking them up is the key ... motivate them, give them small nuggets of truth ... if they follow the bread crumb trail of truth ... it leads here, hopefully some can make that journey.

Oh and Vox ... one correction ... you've referred to Peterson as a Philosopher (like at the top of this post VD: "How can a philosopher be expected to simply tell the truth?"). He isn't philosopher and doesn't claim to be. He's a clinical psychologist and college prof ... in Psychology ... not Philosophy ... big difference. Maybe that explains some of your distaste for the man. Philosophy is or sure be a pure art form ... Psychology ... deals with human behaviors ... which as we know is all over the map and many times disingenuous, misleading, or outright false; people are messy.

Peterson is no different from anyone else in that regard. He's human and makes mistakes and yes lies about it. But ... he is a nice weapon to have against the Leftists ... or as he calls them Cultural Marxists and they are the real enemy, right ? That's all people are trying to say ... does he help our cause or not ? If he does ... then don't be such a hard ass on him ... call him out when you need to, for sure ... but don't throw the baby out with the bath water either ...

Blogger Were-Puppy April 27, 2018 10:51 AM  

I don't know much about the guy.

Saw a photo of him once and he had that slouching Buckley air about him.

IMO if you're going to be a public figure, you better bring your A game. Don't hold back when you know the truth.

Blogger Were-Puppy April 27, 2018 10:57 AM  

@28 Bogey
Funniest thing the Dread Ilk ever did was in Ethan Van Sciver's live chat, after Sciver said Vox was like Charles Manson the Ilk started referring to Sciver as piggy. Shit even made Chuck Dixon laugh.
---

That was fun. "C'mon man, take that job offer from Manson!"

Blogger KPKinSunnyPhiladelpia April 27, 2018 11:06 AM  

@someguy, spot on, especially this.

"[JP] isn't a conservative. He isn't an alternative to conservative thought. He most assuredly isn't Christian. He does mean to help though. Deceit however, implies that he intends to deceive. Knowing how the mind works, he has built in his mind a lattice work of information from which he is trying to postulate a theory. Some of that information is wrong... But I watch you defend Trump when he isn't 100% intellectually pure in some of the things he says. He dismisses many critics when they call him on it. My issue isn't with your critique of Jordan's position, it's spot on. My issue was with your critique of the man. You are past ruthless Vox. You go into a borderline war fervor. It's like watching Rufio draw a line in the sand and declaring "I'm the Pan now!" Instead of pointing out where he is wrong and warning people to not listen to him when he speaks about IQ, you (seem to) instead wish to tear down all that he has brought to the table. That is limited at best, but he genuinely hates the far left and he has a large platform. He also wants to help young men get their lives together..."

Here's another way to look at it. To use a soccer analogy, Vox is trying to give JP an intellectual red card, and a permanent one at that. To David Reich, he is trying to give a red card as well, probably not a permanent one but a significant match ban.

But the fact of the matter is, JP and Reich are more important figures that Vox -- not better, but more important. When it comes to exposure, and influence on the culture, these guys are going to have way more impact than Vox, certainly in the short term and maybe in the long term, despite the current faith-based belief in the inevitability of the alt-right.

With the interview with Cathy Newman, JP has done more to destroy mindless leftoid feminism than a hundred posts on Vox Popoli or Alpha Game. With his best selling book and youtube talks, David Reich has done more to advance the irrefutable idea that race is real, and race matters, than any of Vox's intellectual activities, excellent as they are.

Are these guys paragons of alt-right virtue? Of course not. Are they completely intellectually honest, whether willfully or not? Of course not. And it's delusional to expect them to be. By all means call them out.

But JP is a HUGE threat to the leftoid zeitgeist, and frankly he needs to survive. David Reich is a scientifically brilliant Jewish nerd, with this huge scientfic lego set with intellectual possibilities that seem endless, who also lives in a leftist bubble and probably with a leftist wife, and who needs to get laid so he can back to the lab refreshed and prove scientifically that sub-Saharan Africans are different humanoids.

Despite their flaws--and I agree, they are significant--these guys add value. They are working on problems that we all know ARE problems. By all means, call them out when they stray. But there is a forest amongst those trees.

Blogger Patrick Kelly April 27, 2018 11:09 AM  

Nate wrote:JP is very wrong and he made a complete ass of himself. For the record I was not excusing his behavior.

I have a personal policy about not accusing people of lying without a long term pattern on display. I just don't like it. I still don't think Peterson's jackassery here rose to the level of deliberate lying. But there are plenty of bad behaviors that don't involve telling a lie.



RE: " "right wing conspiracy theorists": "your unrecognized resentment and cowardly and incompetent failure to deal with the world forthrightly...""

In the context I found this it looks directed at those who have been labeled on this blog as "alt-retard" or "hit-larpers", not at anyone presenting something similar to Vox's thorough rebuttal of JP's arguments re: Superior Jewish IQ.

At worst JP or someone on his behalf censored and removed such critique from public comments under their control. That is cowardly and troubling enough in itself.

Blogger Dire Badger April 27, 2018 11:44 AM  

You know, after listening to all these newbies white knighting for JP, I have to add something.

"JP is a valuable weapon against the lefties".

Bullcrap. the only way to affect lefties is to hurt their feelings. His soft-spoken and over-the-top verbiage just bores them. He is also not a recruiting tool... because You already have to be convinced in order to willingly step through his long-winded and stammering content.

Molyneaux, Coulter, hell... even Karen Straughan are vastly better weapons against the left... their occasional stupid warrants, and receives, forgiveness because what they say actually harms the left.

JP? Well, perhaps when he learns to speak in a way normal people can understand, and stops his weak 'courteous' act with every leftist he meets, he might finally be a barely-serviceable club. Until then, I'd rather listen to Milo, whom I find personally abhorrent but is a REAL weapon against lefties.

Blogger Troushers April 27, 2018 12:45 PM  

It's been a real interesting discussion. I'm not going to argue rhetoric/dialectic with you Vox - I haven't read enough about it beyond your own occassional posts to know enough.

I think there is an explanation for Peterson's behaviour that makes sense - to me at least. Another post on Peterson's blog pointed out that many of the authors that he idolises spoke about jews and jewish behaviour so he cannot be so ignorant of the arguments as to offer up the post he made without some level of deception being at play. Two things struck me - one was Vox's post that if he cannot address the issue honestly, he could say nothing. The other is that he lacks integrity for this error.

When I think of you, Vox, I see someone that has built their life in such a way that their success and happiness is in no way dependent on the larger society around them. Taleb calls it "fuck you money", but it goes further than that. I don't think JP is in that position, nowhere near. I think of the analogy of a bacterial plate, with zones of antibiotic suppressing the bacterial growth. JP is like an organism that has crept to the edge of the safe zone, and has settled down and is pumping out antibiotic. The jewish question is way out in the wild. Vox is like an organism thats totally immune. You can go where the hell you like.

I think he made his accomodation, that he could only go so far without risking any more. And that it isnt enough to simply say nothing about it. The forces that punish people over the jewish question require hysterical denunciations, not silence. Silence is seen as guilt. Because I think this, I'm suspending judgement on Peterson.

I dont think its an accident that his whole argument hinges on the old Ashkenazi IQ study. He's set it up to fail, and reverse the conclusions completely.

Finally, I don't agree with the commentator who said JP etc. were more culturally relevant than Vox. I think infogalactic will be/is highly relevant, as well as the support work I suspect VD does behind the scenes, that we never hear about.

Blogger Some Guy April 27, 2018 1:26 PM  

@149

"the only way to affect lefties is to hurt their feelings."

This is objectively false. Peterson is an intellectual yes, but he is a psychologist first and foremost. His self-authoring program was very helpful to me in finding and clearly delineating what a path to success for my future should look like. The second method is in the video below. The man is a worker and he is trying to put together a program that could replace traditional colleges online completely. If we can't root them out of the garden, we burn the garden down and build a new one and he seems completely on board with dedicating time and resources to that end. It's not white knighting, it's looking at him walk the walk. He isn't any smarter than most other college professors, which makes him a mid-wit like myself. The difference is that he seems to not be limited by his intelligence in getting something done. Such as his appearances on that Canadian show that he used to appear on (I can't remember the name), being and actual clinical psychologists, teaching part time, having opened an online business in the form of his Self-Authoring program, and now, attempting to build online replacement for left wing ideologue colleges. If that's useless to you, then go back and listen to Milo. There are definitely worse things you could do with your time (not being sarcastic).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8mb9Ytx7Aw&t=378s

Blogger Jail Cussox April 27, 2018 1:50 PM  

Hey Vox,
I respect your commitment to integrity, failures in which most others sweep under the rug or throw down the memory hole...

Blogger Solaire Of Astora April 27, 2018 1:58 PM  

What's there not to get in VD's standards for integrity? They're quite literally the same as Peterson's. Always speak the truth. Peterson himself has said that lying has a way of sneaking up on you and growing out of control. When you lie, no matter how small, you run the risk of lying to yourself and that's incredibly dangerous. If you start to rationalize your lie to fight off cognitive dissonance and retain coherency with your self-image, then your well on your way to being trapped and not even realizing it. It's not impossible to turn it around but it takes masochistic ruthlessness that few have. I'd say it's something like quitting drug addiction.

Blogger tublecane April 27, 2018 2:28 PM  

@111- "Seems to me Peterson is f-d both ways"

As many other posters have said, he could have simply avoidedthe issue. Apparently he's tired of being asked about the JQ, but he has the perfect excuse: he doesn't want to end up like Ernst Zundel. The JQ is an actual legal issue in the Great White North.

That being said, in choosing to address it he didn't have to be deceitful. Or at least not as deceitful as he was. He also didn't have to be so condescending and insulting.

Blogger tublecane April 27, 2018 2:33 PM  

@125- "The desire for intellectual and/or moral respectability is a huge lure for most people."

Some of us theorize Justice Roberts was blackmail with the threat of losing his son or something equally sinister to force him into the last-minute fix that saved Obamacare. But it really need not have been anything more than he had a sudden vision of himself in the history books, standing as a paragon of the virtue of judges staying out of politics.

Blogger tublecane April 27, 2018 2:43 PM  

@148- I have no doubt he had alt-retard in mind, but of course much like an SJW he's assuming anyone who seriously addresses the JQ is alt-retard. Anyone who even thinks about Jews doing anything but excelling through pure merit is a Kooky Konspiracy Theorist with zero credibility or integrity.

That's how dishonest he's being.

Blogger Redpill Angel April 27, 2018 3:18 PM  

Went to a funeral today, old, old relative, life well-lived, Baptist preacher preaching, gospel music, honor guard, it was a good funeral. I found myself examining my own attitude towards the truth in light of VD's recent posts about Jordan Peterson and the many interesting comments. I plan in future to keep my mouth shut if I can't tell the whole truth, because I've told several lies since the election when conversations have strayed to politics, for no other reason than to have people think I'm a nice lady, and that's a coward's way out. My husband doesn't care what other people think, so I'm going to try and be more like him. But egad, it's so hard for me. Sorry if this sounds like a "what about meeee" post. It's more to show how reading here has cleared things up for me and influenced my thinking.

Blogger KPKinSunnyPhiladelpia April 27, 2018 3:26 PM  

@Trousers said...

"Finally, I don't agree with the commentator who said JP etc. were more culturally relevant than Vox. I think infogalactic will be/is highly relevant, as well as the support work I suspect VD does behind the scenes, that we never hear about."

That was me, and as far as "culural relevance" in concerned (a phrase I did not use by the way) the jury is still out. Vox is highly "relevant" to the culture as is JP, as Vox and true alt-right may win out in the end, or not. As the great moral philosopher Yogi Berra said, it's hard to make predictions...especially about the future.

My point was, and still is, that JP and David Reich have more INFLUENCE RIGHT NOW. A lot of that influence is laudable, some not so much.

To extend the soccer analogy, Vox plays more or less mistake free football, quietly. But he's not a star. JP is more like a Luiz Suarez -- quite talented in a lot ways, but prone to stupid red-card inducing brain cramps. I'd want both guys on my team for vastly different reasons.

Blogger tz April 27, 2018 3:42 PM  

I'm wondering at all the comments.

Either you are in it for vainglory or for truth.

For two decades, Vox Popoli has been in it for truth and is the gold standard of what free speech ought to be - not screeching trolls, not censorious insults, but clear if firey reason.

The response has not always been immediate admission, but correction is a process, not an event. Iron sharpens Iron.

Blogger great_o'rety April 27, 2018 4:03 PM  

I knew something was off about Peterson when I saw his recommended books list (which he calls "books that I found particularly influential in my intellectual development"), where among 15 points one can find "The Painted Bird" by Jerzy Kosinski. Putting there a book written by a guy who departed from this world with a bag on his head while masturbating strikes me as sufficiently disqualifying, but that's only a tip of an iceberg. This was one of the first books in a long lived Jewish campaign to take the blame off the real perpetrators of the holocaust, i.e. Germans (that at some point mistifyingly morphed into nationless "Nazis"), and put it on the shoulders of some makeshift perpetrators. And who would've been better suited for this job than Poles? So Kosinski gives full rein to his imagination producing as vile and wicked image of the gentile populace of the Polish countryside during wartime as one can only get. The dishonesty is double because in truth he had been courageously saved (the penalty for hiding Jews in occupied Poland was death) by the very people he then chose to slander.

Incidentally this Jewish anti-Polish campaign that Kosinski pioneered on a mudslinging end has recently culminated in "Just" Act 447 that puts all weight of US authority behind Jewish demands of circa 300 billion dollars worth of compensation for hairless property left by Polish Jews in Poland.

Knowing this is what Peterson recommends his followers should read I find it hardly surprising he turned out to be somewhat lacking in the honesty department.

Blogger tublecane April 27, 2018 4:10 PM  

@160- Much blame for "the Polish people did it" can be laid at the feet of the curious fact that We Now Know all the supposed death camps were outside Germany. Previously we thought the German ones were death camps too, but that's been debunked.

Coincidentally, the ones that are still thought to have been death camps were all liberated by the Soviets.

Blogger Michael Maier April 27, 2018 6:31 PM  

Profanity is for corruptors of the innocent and soul eaters. You would be better off undertaking drunkenness than using profanity. Shame on you.


"Fuck" is a vulgarity. You can look up "profane" for your damn self.

Blogger VD April 27, 2018 6:40 PM  

My point was, and still is, that JP and David Reich have more INFLUENCE RIGHT NOW.

So do Beyonce and Kim Kardashian. So what? I don't think much of them either.

Blogger KPKinSunnyPhiladelpia April 27, 2018 7:37 PM  

"My point was, and still is, that JP and David Reich have more INFLUENCE RIGHT NOW.

So do Beyonce and Kim Kardashian. So what? I don't think much of them either."

Touche.

Though I guess it's only fitting that my sloppy assertion deserves a sloppy analogy as a rejoinder.

So, here we go.

1. Beyonce has more influence as a singer than VD.

2. Kim K. has more influence on miscengation and on instagram than VD.

3. Jordan Peterson has more influence than VD when it comes to exposing the vacuity of feminism, leftoid insanity, neo-marxist idicocy, and the destructive consequences of de-masculinty (add Christina Hoff Summers to the last item in that list).

4. David Reich has more influence than VD when it comes to providing the scientific evidence that race is real, and that race matters.

Though VD is clearly a better debater that JP, though probably not as smart as David Reich -- in that nerdy sciency, love the lab kinda way, of course.

We still love ya, VD!

Blogger Lovekraft April 27, 2018 8:05 PM  

For all his faults, Jordan's on our side, and if we gang up on him, outsiders will conclude we're not worth allying with.

Same would go for an ilk following another alt-right leader who takes issue with one of Vox's positions and they turn on VD. No. Loyalty has to permit some faults in order to bring an ideology forward, especially one as ours that is so small and in its infancy.

I think VD is smart enough to find common ground with JP.

Blogger Lovekraft April 27, 2018 8:21 PM  

@103 S Thermite:

It's almost as though I wrote those very words myself. Good stuff.

Also, worth repeating from 107 Wreckage:

"I think the central problem with moderates is that they still think identity politics is *an idea* ."

There's a reason VD keeps hammering home the underlying meaning and purpose of rhetoric. I think it would serve many to try to figure it out. I think it as a skill, or gift even. Most lean towards speaking clearly, considering the fog that marxism has created. But if the battles require a sharp and insightful wit, then we must adapt.

Blogger VD April 27, 2018 9:07 PM  

1. Beyonce has more influence as a singer than VD.

2. Kim K. has more influence on miscengation and on instagram than VD.

3. Jordan Peterson has more influence than VD when it comes to exposing the vacuity of feminism, leftoid insanity, neo-marxist idicocy, and the destructive consequences of de-masculinty (add Christina Hoff Summers to the last item in that list).

4. David Reich has more influence than VD when it comes to providing the scientific evidence that race is real, and that race matters.


I repeat. So what? What point are you trying to make. I don't give a damn about influence. I never have. I could walk away from blogging tomorrow and never think twice about it again, just like I did with Universal Press Syndicate, WorldNetDaily, and Alpha Game. You don't seem to understand that I don't compare myself to Reich or Peterson any more than I do to Beyonce or the Kardashians. They are not relevant to me or my life.

I've never listened to a Beyonce song, watched a Kardashian TV show, or watched a Peterson video. I did read Reich's book, though.

So, what is the point you are trying to make?

Blogger VD April 27, 2018 9:09 PM  

I think VD is smart enough to find common ground with JP.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to go back to ignoring him. He is of literally no interest to me.

Blogger The Overgrown Hobbit April 27, 2018 10:03 PM  

Challenge accepted. Look at neurological development in utero (teratogenic effects), during the toddler years, and during adolescence.

Then explain how genetic inheritance trumps environmental effects on phenotypic expression of cognitive abilities.

Now explain how culture - which controls the environmental effects - trumps genetics.

Jordon Peterson vs Vox Day on the JQ is like ancient aliens vs. Atlanteans on who built the pyramids..

Blogger Blume April 27, 2018 11:35 PM  

Jp isn't on our side. As people have pointed out he is a leftist. He like Sargon is trying to reform the left not destroy it. Sure cheer his debunking feminism but criticism of him isn't firing right. Maybe one day he will get there but it ain't today.

Blogger CaseyD April 28, 2018 12:06 AM  

He's done more in the fight against poz than you and the dread ilk. This war over the hearts and minds of western men has gone on for a long time, and addressing the jq in a frontal assault right now is suicide.

Blogger wreckage April 28, 2018 12:41 AM  

It occurs to me that this entire argument devolves to racial stereotypes.

The Brits are worried that we're being rude and jumping to conclusions.

The Germans are wondering if the ethics of facts pertain in a rhetorical argument, and even then, was not Peterson in fact practicing therapy moreso than rhetoric? What then is the right of the therapist, and what is deception; if a lie penetrates the greater illusion of the disordered mind, then does the craving for truth that motivated it, itself speak for its truthfulness? (My apologies to Kant).

Vox wonders if that scalp is properly salted yet. Whatsisname wasn't really a worthy adversary, but rotting scalps are such a bother.

Blogger Rashadjin April 28, 2018 1:48 AM  

@VD - When I get it wrong and you can conclusively prove it, then show me!

Ask and you shall receive.

You and JP are running entirely different numbers. JP - 6M @115 IQ Jews vs. 200M @100 IQ White Gentiles where 200M was a figure given to him. VD - 5,425,000 @ 105 IQ Jews vs. 246,660,710 @102 IQ for White Gentiles. The differences in populations numbers combined with a 1SD gap in calculation isn't minor.

Your overt issue with JP is that he holds to the myth of Jewish IQ while you don't, but the myth of Jewish IQ is the consensus of the intelligencia and he has chosen not to challenge the consensus on this one, likely because he sees it as a waste of his time and he thinks Identity Politics are the devil. Your second issue is over the rules of the Identity Politics game. This matters because you've chosen to impugn JP's integrity rather than his naive acceptance of the consensus and naive/incorrect/self-serving formulation of Identity Politics as game.

Calling a man's character into question should require more than mere differences in perception of the world around us, particularly on the matter of integrity. So from the case presented, VD calling JP's actions deceitful and lacking in integrity is akin to JP calling Alt-Righters cowardly failures on the merits. There is a distinct lack of insight with both accusing parties, and that lack of insight is creating a great deal of error and false judgment.

Which brings me to the third major point of contention that VD has: JP doesn't deserve the respect and platform that he's been given.

This matters because we're looking at an internecine conflict for the hearts and minds of the reactionary right: JP's vision vs. VD's vision. But in VD's case, it looks like you're making an unforced strategic blunder over a conflict of vision and JP saying mean things about your subgroup. That is, JP is a very strong, if incomplete, Red Pill and he's creating a path for generations of lost boys to finally become men that are equal to the challenge of VD's harder truths. This unforced strategic error and apparent unwillingness to share the stage of respectability with an asset like JP over a conflict of vision is where the whiffs of Gamma are coming from.

Perhaps this apparent unwillingness to share the stage of respectability with those you have contempt for is the reason you don't have a bigger platform, Vox. It's a flaw of character that necessitates a choice between you and JP among others. If the work of JP and others equally deserves the bigger platform nevermind the possibility that strategic goals are better served by giving JP the bigger platform, then JP will be given the bigger platform and you will be left to your little corner. Simply because you can do what it's been given to you to do in a small arena doesn't mean that your arena must be small, just that you've been given an arena you may be unworthy of similarly to the way you see JP being unworthy of the arena he's been given.

Blogger Rashadjin April 28, 2018 1:48 AM  

On the matter of insight with JP and his lack of integrity/'oddness':

JP has constructed himself in a very specific way in order to survive as a Canadian Academic and still be able say what he says against the evils of Equity, the culturally sanctified War on Masculinity, and hate speech laws that are weaponized against the reactionary right. And it's that very construction that's given him a sudden international platform and the adoration of millions. His cloak of mildness is disarming and gives the deadly heresy of his message outstanding reach in an incredibly hostile world.

Part of that construction is, in fact, based on a great deal of integrity. Not perfect integrity, but exemplary integrity all the same.

With the JQ, JP is sitting at the unhappy crossroads of believing that Identity Politics are always wrong and then the reality that the best answer to the JQ is Identity Politics of some form. It's at this juncture that a crack in his integrity appears, for he is constructed in such a way that he cannot reconcile this crossroads, and so blunders observably. This lack of integrity isn't the sort of lack of integrity being implied by VD.

The 'oddness', as best as I can tell, is that JP requires a standard of proof for his public positions that just about negates any possibility of true faith for him. Which is why he's probably not someone who believes in God the way a real Christian must believe in God. Like Atheists (incorrectly) believing that Evolutionary Theory explains away the need for God, JP can't untangle the phenomenon of the Collective Unconscious from the concept of God, and so the Collective Unconscious, as he understands it, robs him of the proof he needs to have faith in God. As with VD and Aristotle, I'd like to think JP will have a final meeting with the Almighty that gives him his 'Ah' moment, that an exception has been carved out for what these two men must be in their respective times and places.

So JP suspects truths that his burden of proof upon which his integrity is largely based on will not let him accept. He knows things that he will never assent to or share, and this also has him come across as 'odd' by way of coyly skirting around suspicions that lack his burden of proof. Humanity will be less for not having those suspicions to develop, correct and build upon sooner rather than later.

Blogger Dirk Manly April 28, 2018 2:44 AM  

@15

"OT did everyone see this about the house chaplain:
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/04/26/speaker-ryan-forces-out-the-house-chaplain/23421413/

praying for taxes to even out the world"


WASHINGTON — House Speaker Paul Ryan has ousted the chaplain of the House of Representatives, according to his resignation letter — a move that's angered Democrats and defenders of the Jesuit priest.


Jesuit: (n) a Radical Communist pretending to be a Catholic.

Blogger VD April 28, 2018 5:10 AM  

Ask and you shall receive.

You completely failed. You are totally incorrect. You did not manage to salvage Peterson's integrity, in fact, you confirmed the lack of it. Moreover, you completely failed to address my primary criticism of him.

And the idea that I think he "doesn't deserve the respect and platform that he's been given" is totally absurd. He merits the platform considerably more than, say, Ben Shapiro, much less Maureen Dowd or everyone on ABCNNBCBS. As for the respect, MPAI.

You've just resorted to the usual "all criticism is based on envy" routine that gets applied to everyone I criticize, from PZ Myers to John Scalzi and Ben Shapiro.

Blogger VD April 28, 2018 5:11 AM  

is where the whiffs of Gamma are coming from.

There we go. Butthurt Gamma projection. I thought your name looked vaguely familiar. You guys just never forget a humiliation.

Blogger VD April 28, 2018 5:13 AM  

He's done more in the fight against poz than you and the dread ilk. This war over the hearts and minds of western men has gone on for a long time, and addressing the jq in a frontal assault right now is suicide.

He didn't have to commit intellectual suicide. He should have kept his mouth shut.

Blogger Duke Norfolk April 28, 2018 8:11 AM  

VD wrote:He didn't have to commit intellectual suicide. He should have kept his mouth shut.

You can say it over and over again, and apparently some people will never get it.

What the hell is so hard about this?

Blogger Dire Badger April 28, 2018 1:14 PM  

Duke Norfolk wrote:VD wrote:He didn't have to commit intellectual suicide. He should have kept his mouth shut.

You can say it over and over again, and apparently some people will never get it.

What the hell is so hard about this?


I imagine JP owes a LOT of blow jobs right about now.

Blogger VD April 28, 2018 7:45 PM  

Go away, Rashadjin. I'm not interested in your revisionist histories. Don't attempt to comment here anymore.

Blogger Avalanche April 28, 2018 9:57 PM  

@90 All JP had to say was, "Speaking the truth is often illegal in Canada so I can't discuss that." Everyone would have known what he meant and he would have gotten bonus points for criticizing oppressive laws."

Brilliant. (Can someone tweet it at him? I don't do twitter.)

Blogger Avalanche April 28, 2018 10:35 PM  

@149 "You know, after listening to all these newbies white knighting for JP, I have to add something.
"JP... His soft-spoken and over-the-top verbiage just bores them. He is also not a recruiting tool... because You already have to be convinced in order to willingly step through his long-winded and stammering content."

This is where your apparent lack of familiarity (I'm guessing?) with what-all JP is doing shows up.

When he recently went to Australia, the book publisher set up A (one, singular) meeting hall holding some 1,000 people. It sold out in 20 minutes. So they added another, larger venue; also 20 minutes. I think they ended up with FIVE venues jam-packed with mostly young men.

His "recruiting" may not bring them fully into our "army" at first -- but he's bringing them WAY closer than we are succeeding at. And they all willingly step through his long-winded content. He is having an effect we do not currently have anyone providing for us.

Yes, he lied, and stupidly, about the jews and their IQ and success. Yes, he could and should have ducked such questions with a ref to Canadian law. As he says in the great BBC4 interview, he is very, very, very careful in his choice of words.

But even very careful words choices cannot overcome a lack of knowledge whereof he speaks. As with everyone else here, I will wait and watch to see if he recovers from this misstep.

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