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Saturday, May 05, 2018

12 things I learned from 12 Rules of Life

So, I finished the book and took a reasonable amount of notes, although considerably fewer than I would have anticipated. This is not my review, which I'll probably post on Monday, merely a list of things I noted directly from the book rather than from interviews, videos, or statements by his fans or detractors.

12 Things I learned from reading 12 Rules for Life: A Darkstream
  1. Jordan Peterson is doing philosophy and religion, not psychology or science.
  2. Jordan Peterson is a gamma male and a physical coward
  3. Jordan Peterson is a man who is psychologically scarred by tragedy. This is probably why he believes both life and evil are primarily defined by suffering. He has really suffered and he genuinely merits an amount of pity.
  4. Jordan Peterson is not a man of the Right
  5. Jordan Peterson is not a Christian
  6. Jordan Peterson does not understand evil
  7. Jordan Peterson doesn't entirely believe in individual responsibility.
  8. Jordan Peterson does not know what chaos is.
  9. Jordan Peterson does not follow his own advice.
  10. Jordan Peterson does not have a good grasp of either science or history.
  11. Jordan Peterson's perspective is shaped by Holocaustianity.
  12. Jordan Peterson is a moderate who worships balance.
UPDATE: Link to video added.

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113 Comments:

Blogger Matt May 05, 2018 7:29 PM  

Does he know Riker declined his own command not once, but twice?

Blogger Nate73 May 05, 2018 7:31 PM  

Even the new atheists are starting to realize Peterson isn't what he's cracked up to be:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnpMkc8PzYw

Blogger FUBARwest May 05, 2018 7:32 PM  

Darkstream tonight?

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 05, 2018 7:36 PM  

Twice, he declined it? I could have sworn Riker only declined his own command once.

Blogger Matt May 05, 2018 7:39 PM  

Maybe Vox will address the confusion in tonight's Darkstream.

Blogger Mr. Deficient May 05, 2018 7:39 PM  

Someone just asked JF Garripey if he would want to talk to you regarding the debunking of JBP. He was very much in favor of it.

Blogger Quicksilver75 May 05, 2018 7:51 PM  

IOW, He's tinkering around within the Neolib/NeoCon cage of the Bland Bargain. Some sizzle but no real substance or risk of offending the Elites.

Blogger Teleros May 05, 2018 7:51 PM  

Would be good too, although as this whole JBP thing has shown, I wonder if VD might have a thing or two to say about Gariepy's moral nihilism :P ...

Blogger Aquila Aquilonis May 05, 2018 7:59 PM  

Tell more more about this Riker fellow.

Blogger L' Aristokrato May 05, 2018 8:04 PM  

Give yourself a chuckle, and listen to the infamous Mister Metokur commenting on Peterson, and his insane, rabid fanbase(13m long): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iFi4p4QC44

Blogger VD May 05, 2018 8:07 PM  

Someone just asked JF Garripey

I'm sorry, I don't know who that is.

Blogger dh May 05, 2018 8:13 PM  

> Jordan Peterson is a moderate who worships balance.

As I get older, this is something I can relate to. You could easily write a whole book just about whether or not this is an appropriate outlook on life. It's hard to argue that it's worth it to pick sides in the coming or present culture wars.

If I simply want to live life peacefully, why shouldn't I try to stay median point between the warring factions of the culture war, and try to ride out the storms? There's a good chance both sides will ignore me, and pick jucier targets. When being hunted by predators from both sides, why should I align with one side or another, when I can stay with the herd and have a 99% chance of survival?

Blogger tublecane May 05, 2018 8:16 PM  

About #3, not sure but it may be the basis of his entire philosophy.

In a video lecture on his Maps of Meaning book he tells his students not to believe him, because he isn't telling the truth. They should criticize him mercilessly, and in fact should hack away at their own beliefs until there's nothing left but what could stand firm should their lives fall apart.

That's Peterson's answer to "What is truth?" Whatever is true for you in the midst of a nervous breakdown.

Blogger The Observer May 05, 2018 8:18 PM  

Just watched the Darkstream, good stuff.

If I simply want to live life peacefully, why shouldn't I try to stay median point between the warring factions of the culture war, and try to ride out the storms? There's a good chance both sides will ignore me, and pick jucier targets.

Except the middle is falling apart, and everyone is being polarised one way or the other.

On a side note, might I ask if there's any Alt-Hero news?

Blogger VD May 05, 2018 8:19 PM  

In a video lecture on his Maps of Meaning book he tells his students not to believe him, because he isn't telling the truth.

Send me the link please, preferably to a transcript.

Blogger ghostfromplanetspook May 05, 2018 8:20 PM  

VD wrote:Someone just asked JF Garripey

I'm sorry, I don't know who that is.



Hes a youtube streamer that likes to talk about politics. He was co-host during the Sargon v Spencer youtube debate/shitflinging fest.

Blogger Allen Skeens May 05, 2018 8:25 PM  

And godhood!

Blogger tublecane May 05, 2018 8:26 PM  

One Peterson defender or another advised people to go after the strongest possible version of an opponent's argument. I have now heard Peterson say the same thing, so I know at least that part they aren't just making up.

I wonder, what is the psychology behind this? I used to think something similar, but experience has taught me to go after weak spots. I should think that if you directly attack your opponent's strongest defense, not only would you tend to be less successful, but they could play Motte and Bailey with you.

In any case, Peterson also says at some point we shouldn't even be arguing. We should be trying to come together in understanding to reach a higher truth, or whatever. Because arguments are just about winning, not truth. (If he believes in truth.)

Is this an elaborate defensive mechanism against people attacking his weak points?

Blogger VD May 05, 2018 8:26 PM  

Perhaps he might want to consider inviting Peterson and me to a debate on his channel. Even a refusal from Peterson would be informative.

A debate on the nature of evil might be of interest.

Blogger Durandel May 05, 2018 8:28 PM  

Great darkstream. Look forward to the written, in-depth review.

Btw, I know John Wright and you have a working relationship, but I’d be curious as to why John can’t see the BS and sulfur in the 12 Rules, as he praised it and Peterson recently in a post.

http://www.scifiwright.com/2018/05/john-anderson-jordan-peterson/

Blogger VD May 05, 2018 8:30 PM  

Is this an elaborate defensive mechanism against people attacking his weak points?

Probably. He's a gamma, so everything he does is going to be at least somewhat related to defending his public persona.

However, it is a reasonable strategy. Bill Belichick uses it. If you can beat the strong points, you can definitely beat the opponent.

I prefer to attack the foundations myself. Then it doesn't matter if they have strong or weak arguments, the whole thing is coming down anyhow. But Peterson doesn't have strong arguments, which is why he relies upon squid ink and plausible deniability.

He's actually worse than Sam Harris in that regard, which is amazing.

Blogger Nathan May 05, 2018 8:30 PM  

VD, I appreciate your insights on the book and the man. It's actually made it easier for me to appreciate him for what he is - an anti-SJW professor who is fun to listen to explain Disney movies - than for what I want him to be.

I find it the most troubling that he has talked about the Bible and his issues with literal Christianity, but never discusses reading modern apologetics. The Everlasting Man would be a great help for him to counterbalance Nietzche and Jung. Dostoevsky might be a great novelist, but he is not the most cogent theologian or even Christian popularizer.

Blogger VD May 05, 2018 8:31 PM  

I’d be curious as to why John can’t see the BS and sulfur in the 12 Rules, as he praised it and Peterson recently in a post.

You'd have to ask him. At least he recognizes that Peterson is a pagan, and not a Christian. He's well ahead of the average Peterson fan there.

Blogger Peaceful Poster May 05, 2018 8:33 PM  

Agreed life isn't defined by "suffering", but the straight and narrow path is indeed hard and difficult, and requires sacrifices.

There is also a sense of satisfaction and contentment after a hard day's work that one simply doesn't get from a nihilistic day at the beach.



Blogger Ingot9455 May 05, 2018 8:33 PM  

Ayn Rand's great comment on 'moderates who worship balance."

"What is the compromise between food and poison?"

But more seriously, this moderate crap is bullpucky because the Left doesn't compromise. They take what you offer, never hold up their part of any bargain they made to give up something, and then demand more fake 'compromise' where you give up more and more. There is just no such thing any more.

It's why Reagan called his famous speech, "A Time For Choosing."

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 05, 2018 8:36 PM  

tublecane wrote:One Peterson defender or another advised people to go after the strongest possible version of an opponent's argument. ... I wonder, what is the psychology behind this? I used to think something similar, but experience has taught me to go after weak spots.
It was Aquinas' rule, always define the best version of your opponents argument, so you avoid the "well, that's not what I really meant" and you cut to the chase.
That only works when both sides are trying to find, or at least argue, the truth. In the current environment, where one side doesn't even believe in the existence of truth, and everybody is just trying to score points, it doesn't work.

Blogger Mr. Deficient May 05, 2018 8:39 PM  

Considering that JF is alt right I doubt that Jordan Peterson would even respond .

Blogger Al K. Annossow May 05, 2018 8:40 PM  

I someone already knows, I would be curious ...

Does Peterson do debates or only interviews and lectures where he does all the talking, and thus relatively little challenge per idea?

Blogger urbino May 05, 2018 8:46 PM  

Any Peterson fans who think he's a Jungian—he attempts to increase his own prestige by appearing to present and extend Jung's work, but he rejects the core of Jung's theory of the reality of the psyche. Evil is very real and a great problem in Jungian theory. Peterson's shallow interpersonal definition is childish nonsense by comparison, as is his idea about how Adam discovered evil when he realized his own vulnerability. If you're attracted to ideas about archetypes and the truth of religion within the psyche, forget Peterson. Stick with Jung and Edinger.

Blogger Allen Skeens May 05, 2018 8:47 PM  

dh, the left will never let you be.

Blogger Mr. Deficient May 05, 2018 8:58 PM  

@28

He has interviews that are contentious but no debates that im aware of. You can check out both podcasts with Harris as well as his interview debate with Matt Dilahunty

Blogger Peaceful Poster May 05, 2018 8:58 PM  

Does Peterson do debates or only interviews and lectures where he does all the talking, and thus relatively little challenge per idea?

JP received much praise for that Channel 4 interview, but he was noticeably squirming.

Blogger ghostfromplanetspook May 05, 2018 9:00 PM  

VD wrote:Perhaps he might want to consider inviting Peterson and me to a debate on his channel. Even a refusal from Peterson would be informative.

A debate on the nature of evil might be of interest.


Sent him a message hopefully this can be set up shortly.

Blogger Mr. Deficient May 05, 2018 9:03 PM  

The only common point of contact with JBP and you is Molyneux right? I've noticed he's distanced himself from the alt right for a little while now but it still seems like the ideal avenue.

Slightly OT but "separation of race and state" is weak.

Blogger VD May 05, 2018 9:07 PM  

The only common point of contact with JBP and you is Molyneux right?

To my knowledge, yes.

Blogger tublecane May 05, 2018 9:10 PM  

@15- I can't find a transcript. Peterson says on Twitter that transcripts are available, but I don't know where.

The YouTube video is called:

2016 Lecture 01 Maps of Meaning: Introduction and Overview

m.youtube.com/watch?v=bjnvtRgpg6g

At about the 1:21:40 mark he says:

"The attitude that you guys should bring to this class is that nothing I tell you is true."

They are supposed to criticize him and themselves mercilessly, until they have a foundation of belief that will be there "when things get rough."

Blogger tublecane May 05, 2018 9:12 PM  

@36- The way I phrased that above may have been misleading.

Blogger Stilicho May 05, 2018 9:16 PM  

I think I saw Peterson in an ad today: at the end of an article on NRO about how Trump's hair isn't truly presidential, there was this ad claiming "Canadian man totally disrupts billion dollar industry". There was another ad following a Weekly Standard op ed that claimed "Canadian guru shows you how to succeed with one weird trick". Intriguing to say the least.

Blogger tublecane May 05, 2018 9:18 PM  

@24- Peterson from what I've heard uses suffering as a sort of Cartesian touchstone. He is free to doubt everything, but he cannot doubt that he feels pain. Therefore, no commie nazi postmodernist can tell him he doesn't exist, Jack!

He may have derived this from the existentialist-y Heidegger and his phenomenology of suffering. Was Heidegger influenced by Buddhism and its obsession with life as suffering? I don't know.

Schopenhauer was, of course, and Peterson's hero Nietzsche is jazzed up Schopenhauer.

Blogger Avalanche May 05, 2018 9:28 PM  

Old Taoist or Buddhist saying:

Pain is mandatory, suffering is optional.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington May 05, 2018 9:29 PM  

Well, I just saw this Darkstream and I just wanted to say I thought it was good. I haven't read the book but most of what Vox presents seem reasonable, if a bit nitpicky in some cases.

I did think it was unfair to make claims about Peterson's current psychological states based on a single incident when he was 11. Clearly, Peterson has done a lot in the last year that takes significant courage, especially when you consider where he was coming from (ie his job).

It is pretty unfortunate that Vox didn't lead with this, as it is much more substantial than his previous efforts.

Cheers, :)

Blogger Lovekraft May 05, 2018 9:42 PM  

I heard recently that Peterson demands one thing from the far left and from the far right.

The far right has to renounce race supremacy/isolation and the left has to renounce equality of outcome.

@12 dh:

"If I simply want to live life peacefully, why shouldn't I try to stay median point between the warring factions of the culture war, and try to ride out the storms?"

When I first became red-pilled about 15 or so years ago, I realized that I seem to be between the marxists on the left, and jihad on the right. Tried to maneuver so that these two extremes fight each other. The alt-right is still in a position to do this, because no matter how much we are demonized in the media, the hard truth is that we really haven't done anything that warrants widespread condemnation, and are actually developing a solid core ideology.

Blogger Lovekraft May 05, 2018 9:47 PM  

I wonder how much of Peterson's outlook is based on the current Canadian era he's living in. Post-Anglo supremacy, multiculturalism as State Religion, globalism/corporatism eliminating local accountability, rising immigrant enclaves, and of course SJW 2.0.

IOW, is his outlook reflective of the times, rather than a solid base that endures through any?

Blogger Quilp May 05, 2018 9:57 PM  

#12, in my view, distorts and is at least partly the cause of the other 11. I can't abide a moderate, especially on who purports to teach truths to young Western Men.

Blogger Rocklea Marina May 05, 2018 9:59 PM  

Clearly, Peterson has done a lot in the last year that takes significant courage, especially when you consider where he was coming from (ie his job).

Public speaking is his natural domain, no courage required. Courage would require him to examine provably false arguments he has made, that would jeopardize his relationships with colleagues that he values. As has been observed, instead of simply refusing to answer JQ questions in the first place, which would have been valid and well within his capabilities, he put forth poorly researched arguments, was credibly called out for those arguments, insulted those who called him out and doubled down on his original poor arguments. Despicable. His straight path is very crooked indeed.

Cheers, ;)

Blogger Daniel Bendele May 05, 2018 10:07 PM  

Shawn Hetherington wrote:learly, Peterson has done a lot in the last year that takes significant courage, especially when you consider where he was coming from (ie his job).

God forbid he loses his teaching gig when he's making more in a month from his Patreon than many people make in a year. His deplatforming of Faith Goldy was the last straw for me. When he was asked about it in an interview he called it "ironic". No, Dr. Peterson it wasn't ironic, it was cowardly.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington May 05, 2018 10:22 PM  

@45, "Public speaking is his natural domain, no courage required. Courage would require him to examine provably false arguments he has made, that would jeopardize his relationships with colleagues that he values. As has been observed, instead of simply refusing to answer JQ questions in the first place, which would have been valid and well within his capabilities, he put forth poorly researched arguments, was credibly called out for those arguments, insulted those who called him out and doubled down on his original poor arguments. Despicable. His straight path is very crooked indeed."

Peterson wasn't just speaking he was speaking about something that could plausibly have gotten him fired. That takes courage in my book.

He may not've responded the way you would like on the JQ but that doesn't mean he did so because of a lack of courage. He may honestly believe what he is saying here (changing your mind is hard for us humans). In any case, just because he isn't always courageous doesn't mean he *never* is.

Cheers, :)

Blogger OGRE May 05, 2018 10:25 PM  

@29 didn't Jung fall into occultism in the end?

My take on Jung from a spiritual perspective is he advocates using individuation to reach some type of self-actualization in order to become part of a greater divine consciousness. Atman into Brahman if you will, although there are some Christian ideals that would coincide with this somewhat.

Blogger Al K. Annossow May 05, 2018 10:29 PM  

I have noticed that a couple of 70 year old, very high IQ men I know, seem to parrot SJW ideas, even exact phrasing, of their wife/girlfriend. It doesn't fit with the rest of their thinking. I assume that fear of loss or even just discord at home can be a very big subconscious(?) motivator to some. I therefore now wonder if this might also apply to Peterson. I am too unsure to accuse, but I do wonder.

Blogger OGRE May 05, 2018 10:30 PM  

JP won't debate VD, he doesn't really debate anyone. He does interviews or discussions. And he'll certainly avoid the Jewish IQ issue.

I think it'd be much more beneficial if we could get Molyneux to have a discussion with JP about his metaphysical and epistemological beliefs; this might be something he'd be willing to do, and Molyneux would likely be viewed as a 'softer' conversation than VD. And this could perhaps get him to at least clarify somewhat where he stands as he tends to go all over the place on those matters.

Blogger L May 05, 2018 10:40 PM  

I'd like it if Vox could mention in his review the things that JP gets right. Am grateful to Vox for reviewing JP's work and sharing his (Vox's) insights.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington May 05, 2018 10:41 PM  

@46, "God forbid he loses his teaching gig when he's making more in a month from his Patreon than many people make in a year. His deplatforming of Faith Goldy was the last straw for me. When he was asked about it in an interview he called it "ironic". No, Dr. Peterson it wasn't ironic, it was cowardly."

Well, when he first started out he didn't have the Patreon, right? I do agree with you about Faith Goldy. That wasn't his finest hour.

Cheers, :)

Blogger Cecil Henry May 05, 2018 10:46 PM  

The disingenuous and willful blindness of Peterson has gone from disconcerting to galling.

I have so much respect for what he did in 'Maps of Meaning', that his dishonesty and avoidance honest debate now is so disappointing.

Case in point, this tweet from Peterson just today, in light of all he's been challenged with, and all he's insisted on ignoring:

Peterson:
'A very important thread. What's gone wrong with Britain, home of Western democracy?'

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/992875231466409984

Seriously Jordan, you insult yourself and your readers with such a question.

Blogger urbino May 05, 2018 10:49 PM  

OGRE wrote:@29 didn't Jung fall into occultism in the end?

My take on Jung from a spiritual perspective is he advocates using individuation to reach some type of self-actualization in order to become part of a greater divine consciousness. Atman into Brahman if you will, although there are some Christian ideals that would coincide with this somewhat.


He was interested in occultism (and many other things) in order to analyze the psychological content. I'm not aware of any evidence that he held occult beliefs toward the end of his life.

Your take on it more-or-less sums it up. Anyone who wants the details can read Answer to Job and Edinger's guide to it, Transformation of the God-Image. Jung was well aware that his ideas would not appeal to many traditional Christians. It's useful for a subset of people who've lost their religion and want to reestablish a link with God. A few people—me included—have this experience spontaneously. Psychologists had no clue what was happening to me and I found a description of it only in Jung.

Blogger Samuel Nock May 05, 2018 10:51 PM  

"Jordan Peterson defenders are not sending their best. They're Gammas. They're broken people. They're midwits. They're self-deluding poseurs. And some, I assume, are good people."

Blogger Cubby8126 May 05, 2018 10:53 PM  

30bucks is pricey. Is it a worthy 30dollar tool for someone who deals with jp fans though vox? Im certain my iq can stand the test, expecially with the pointers you have given out already.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington May 05, 2018 10:53 PM  

BTW, I found this neat little page with a bunch of quotes from the book: http://www.brycelewis.com/jordan-peterson-quotes-12-rules-for-life/

I wasn't really thinking of buying it but I must say it seems pretty good if this is any indication.

Cheers, :)

Blogger Cubby8126 May 05, 2018 10:54 PM  

Well hell if its too expensive i might just delve into that instead

Blogger urbino May 05, 2018 10:56 PM  

Cecil Henry wrote:Peterson:

'A very important thread. What's gone wrong with Britain, home of Western democracy?'

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/992875231466409984

Seriously Jordan, you insult yourself and your readers with such a question.


Hopefully Douglas Murray will put him on the spot when they appear on stage together in July. Much harder for him to slither away from the immigration question there.

Blogger TCO348 May 05, 2018 11:08 PM  

I've definitely learned alot from watching Jordan Peterson's videos. When I first found them I watched a whole lot of them. His deconstruction of postmodernism, SJWs and cultural marxists is excellent.
But at some point I started getting frustrated with him. It became clear to me that he was not willing to follow certain lines of thought through to their logical conclusions. He is very careful when discussing race and IQ. He did interview Richard Heier and he talked about the difficulty of finding places in the economy where low IQ individuals can provide enough value to pay for themselves. But he just completely avoided the race differences. He said 85 IQ is about the cutoff for doing any kind of productive work. But he failed to mention that that implies that fully 50% of any group with an average IQ of 85 will not be able to be employed profitably on their own merits.

Then there is his refusal to grapple with identity and tribalism in an honest way. He promotes individuality as the answer but he just completely ignores the fact that the societies in which individualism worked well as an organizing principle were largely homogenous.He seems to just want to blame the failure of individualism in a society that is increasingly racially and ethnically pluralistic on the unwillingness of some stubborn few to go along with it. I guess he imagines that we can just overcome our tribal nature by committing to this individualistic philosophy. But the tribalness of humans is hard-wired and cannot be so easily overcome. He seems willing to admit thatour inborn sex-based tendencies cannot be eradicated by social engineering but he seems to think that our tribal nature can be thwarted in this way.
I eventually came to realize that I'd be continually frustrated by his unwillingness to go where the logic leads if it is too controversial. So I’ve clicked on fewer and fewer of his videos lately. Also that podcast with Sam Harris was a train wreck. So frustrating. He cannot really believe that something is true only if it has good consequences. It was just ridiculous. We already have the concept of wisdom, distinct from
knowledge to make the distinction that he was getting at. But for some reason that wasn't good enough for him. He felt that he needed to redefine the word ‘truth’. That struck me as an extremely grandiose intellectual move and I was glad that Harris humiliated him for trying to make it.

Blogger OGRE May 05, 2018 11:16 PM  

@54 urbino

Thanks for the info. I'm not aware of Edinger, I'll be sure to look into him.

Blogger Ian Stein May 05, 2018 11:59 PM  

Don't know much about Peterson. But I'll take you word for it and just avoid the guy. Thanks for the heads up.

Blogger Iamblichus May 06, 2018 12:00 AM  


At least Peterson now has proof the holocaust happened, i.e. the darkstreams

Blogger Mr. Deficient May 06, 2018 12:06 AM  

@42 his argument against the so-called far right is that they are basically pre-Nazis, similar to Harris' argument. This is one of the worse arguments I've ever heard.

Blogger Mr. Deficient May 06, 2018 12:11 AM  

@53

I disagree. Immigration is like cancer diabetes, its a horrible effect of an underlying problem. What IS the cause of western Liberal Democracies are willing to betray their own people? This is free welfare state , European Union , and the death of Christianity and the family etc..

Blogger Ian Stein May 06, 2018 12:29 AM  

So called "Immigration" is invasion by those coming and political coercion by those in power.
I never use the word immigration or immigrant anymore. I try to use some kind of circumlocution to avoid legitimizing the word.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd May 06, 2018 12:31 AM  

Stg58/Animal Mother wrote:Twice, he declined it? I could have sworn Riker only declined his own command once.

Reruns, of course!

Blogger SciVo May 06, 2018 12:38 AM  

VD wrote:The only common point of contact with JBP and you is Molyneux right?

To my knowledge, yes.


If you go for one more degree of separation, MILO was on Dave Rubin's show at least twice, and JBP was on with Ben Shapiro.

(I actually watched the recording of that, and while I originally thought that Jordan made Ben look shallow and glib, it might be instead that Ben made Jordan look thoughtful and deep.)

Blogger tublecane May 06, 2018 12:43 AM  

Peterson, despite his doctorate, strikes me as an autodidact. Which I say partly because I am as well and recognize in him a bit of my way of relating to big thinkers. Though I'm certainly nowhere near as smart or learned as he.

You have to be self-taught if you're going to be at all genuinely rightist in our society. Not that Peterson is right-wing. But he is outside the Canadian academic mainstream, at least.

In order to see through social justice, postmodernism, and communism, as he does, you have to either have fallen into a dissident school of thought or blazed your own path. Peterson I imagine as having followed his own star into a treasure trove of interesting material: existentialism, pragmatism, mythology, religion, Dostoyevsky, Nietzsche, etc.

None of whom are official badthinkers or unpersons, though Nietzsche has come close. They have a certain level of academic cachet, but I think Peterson is more into them than your average academic. Like a teenage fanboy, if you will.

Maybe he would have been able to synthesize all of it into a coherent system of thought if he was one of those lucky mega-geniuses. But Peterson probably would have been better off with a master. And I don't mean someone who's been dead for more than a century.

Since Peterson's real discipline is psychology, maybe his knowledge of Jung is solid. Maybe he has a good grasp on William James. I don't know, because I am not very knowledgeable about those figures. But the rest of his thought is hodgepodgey.

Blogger Cecil Henry May 06, 2018 12:43 AM  

@65:

I know what you mean. There are underlying issues that are enabling these other pathologies.

But my approach is that if immigration and the demographic attack of the West can be corrected, it gives time and opportunity for that needed healing and correction to occur.

With the immigration, it is meant to permanently make that correction and healing impossible without the arduous task of reestablishing boundaries and separation which is the precondition for all freedom and individuation. The enemies of the West know this full well. Which is why the rage with hatred at any suggestion to the contrary.

OpenID zhukovg May 06, 2018 12:50 AM  

@dh: Most people would have peace, if they could. I am reminded of this brief exchange in the Movie, The Two Towers.

Theoden: I will not risk open war.
Aragorn: Open war is upon you, whether you would risk it or not.

The Alt-Right is the only choice for peace loving people.

It is not so much an ideology, as it is merely the acceptance of what is true and conforming one's actions to the truth. When a nation is conformed to the truth then it can know the greatest amount of peace that can be expected in a fallen world.

But getting there is war to the knife, and the enemies of truth will tolerate no fence sitters.

--ZhukovG

Blogger seeingsights May 06, 2018 1:00 AM  

Its been said on this blog that Jordan Peterson is Nietzschean. So I reread Nietzsche.
I agree.

Nietzsche wrote: Das Kriterium der Wahrheit liegt in der Steigerung des Machtgefühls.

Translation: The criterion of truth resides in the heightening of the feeling of power.

Jordan Peterson hasn't said that exactly. But he said: If it doesn’t serve life, it’s not true.

Nietzsche's and Peterson's view on this is patently incorrect. For example, there are many mathematical proofs that have no bearing on my life. These proofs haven't enhanced, nor decreased my feeling of power. These proofs haven't served, nor hindered my life. So under their view, these mathematical proofs are not true. And that is silly.





Blogger Brad Matthews May 06, 2018 1:05 AM  

Vox,
What did you think of his interpretation of Christ's temptations in the wilderness?

Blogger Brad Matthews May 06, 2018 1:08 AM  

Also,
Your speaking on DS has greatly improved. Pace and tone specifically.

Blogger Rocklea Marina May 06, 2018 1:14 AM  

That takes courage in my book.

Pilpul for Dummies?

Cheers, ;)

Blogger Bogey May 06, 2018 1:33 AM  

Jordan Peterson is a moderate who worships balance.

Interesting. What is the current balance of Good and Evil?

30/70 in the favor of evil?

Blogger tublecane May 06, 2018 2:19 AM  

Funny thing:

I'm watching a Peterson lecture on Jung and the Lion King (of all things). Speaking of Peterson's logorrhea, he mentions the fact that Jung wrote a 700-1100 page book on a mere third of Thus Spake Zarathustra. Which isn't a long book to begin with. Therefore, get this:

"you can imagine how much Jung had to know about Nietzsche to derive that many words out of that few words."

Uh, what? The more words you can write about a subject the more you know about it?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 06, 2018 2:38 AM  

Can we start banning people who postfix 'Cheers!' to their comment?

Blogger Dirk Manly May 06, 2018 2:46 AM  

"12. Jordan Peterson is a moderate who worships balance."

Balance: Meeting in the middle. In other words, taking a 50% dose of whatever poison the SJWs demand we swallow, instead of the whole 100% all at once. Some win.

Blogger VD May 06, 2018 3:46 AM  

Can we start banning people who postfix 'Cheers!' to their comment?

Why? Shawn Hetherington is nicely underlining my points about the cult-like behavior of the Crazy Christ's followers.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 06, 2018 3:51 AM  

I just find it annoying. They say 'Cheers', but I hear ' I pretending to be friendly.' Now Rocklea has started doing it too.
If it's not nipped in the bud, it may spread.

Blogger VD May 06, 2018 3:53 AM  

It's just Gamma punctuation from Shawn and Rocklea is making fun of it. Relax.

Blogger S. Thermite May 06, 2018 3:55 AM  

Thank you, Vox. I previously took issue with your prior comment about not giving “a fragment of a flying fuck about poor little Jordie” because you are “not personally acquainted” while also saying you had not read his books nor watched his videos. But you have gone above and beyond many of his fans (of which I still cautiously consider myself) by reading “12 Rules...” and part of “Maps of Meaning.” Your criticism is valid, especially your points about him not understanding the definitions of Chaos and Evil. He did a TED talk hinging on the definition of chaos and definitely played fast and loose with the definition...redefining a fork as a soup spoon indeed...”there is no spoon.” Your prior rebuttal of his definition of evil was also very good...whether someone tortures a man solely because they want to inflict suffering or because of some other selfish end, the end result for the victim is the same. And that flies in the face of his weird subjective, “pragmatic” definition of truth, does it not? Anyway, FWIW, you have increased my already substantial respect for your insight and intellect.

Blogger Basta Con La Droga May 06, 2018 4:08 AM  

Why are you obsessed with Jordan Peterson?

Blogger Wanderer May 06, 2018 4:16 AM  

Have you seen this video of Jordan Peterson cowardly running away when confronted with the JQ in person? It's pretty bizarre.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAqcge10Mfc

Blogger Dire Badger May 06, 2018 4:26 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Dire Badger May 06, 2018 4:29 AM  

SciVo wrote:
(I actually watched the recording of that, and while I originally thought that Jordan made Ben look shallow and glib, it might be instead that Ben made Jordan look thoughtful and deep.)

Behold the nearly limitless might of "And"!

Blogger Dire Badger May 06, 2018 4:37 AM  

Regarding political moderates:
If you have a delicious sundae, how many scoops of ice cream can be replaced with Pure human feces while leaving it palatable?

OpenID Sidehill Dodger May 06, 2018 4:38 AM  

tublecane wrote:One Peterson defender or another advised people to go after the strongest possible version of an opponent's argument. I have now heard Peterson say the same thing, so I know at least that part they aren't just making up.

I wonder, what is the psychology behind this? I used to think something similar, but experience has taught me to go after weak spots. I should think that if you directly attack your opponent's strongest defense, not only would you tend to be less successful, but they could play Motte and Bailey with you.


It depends on the kind of fight you are in. You have to decide if your objective is to engage your opponent as an honest philosopher, or if you are trying to trash him. If you're attacking a political enemy in an argument where the stakes are high--say, the passage of a law--or if you are arguing a case in court, you are obviously going to go for the low blow. You will find something stupid your opponent has said, load it up as much as possible, and then beat him to death with it. This is a real fight, and there are no rules.

If you are doing honest philosophy, then your first job is to understand what your opponent is really saying. This is very
hard work; philosophical ideas are complex and all too often poorly expressed. Part of this work is throwing away obvious mistakes made by your opponent, and interpreting dubious passages in the most charitable way possible. The honest philosopher finds himself saying things like, "My colleague so-and-so seems to be saying X here, but that's clearly nonsense. Surely he means something like this [insert what an honestly reasonable reading of what his position might be]".

Of course, you must explain why it's nonsense. Your opponent can then refuse your attempt to help him, and admit he was talking nonsense, or agree with you (or even offer his own clarification). Thus you arrive at common ground. When you then attack this strongest possible position and show it's wrong, you've fought fairly (and, one hopes, well).

I'm impressed by the diligence and fairness with which our esteemed host is proceeding against Jordan Peterson. He is engaging in honest intellectual debate, and though I will wait for the review, Vox is winning fair and square so far. And I'm glad.

Why is it that so many shrinks think that they are philosophers and priests? I suspect that there's something intellectually dubious in the entire disciplines of psychology and psychiatry. This goes back to the allegedly brilliant intellectual stars that founded psychiatry--people like Freud, Jung, and Adler. What these people taught had little to do with science; it was always more of a pseudo-religion.

Blogger Rocklea Marina May 06, 2018 4:40 AM  

The funny thing about Peterson's pandering to the tribe, ostensibly for his Truth, will garner him nothing but contempt from the tribe. The smart ones will know he's telling people the "truth" for them. How can he possibly think this will earn him their respect? He's their shiny new Goy toy.

Chee...oops. Shawn, stick your head in a bucket of water three times. Pull it out twice. :)

Better Snidley?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 06, 2018 4:47 AM  

Go ahead with "Cheers'. Mocking Hetherington is all the justification you need.

BTW, has anyone seen a better paid troll nym than Shawn Hetherington? It practically screams WASP.

OpenID Sidehill Dodger May 06, 2018 5:02 AM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:I just find it annoying. They say 'Cheers', but I hear ' I pretending to be friendly.' Now Rocklea has started doing it too.

If it's not nipped in the bud, it may spread.


Yes! As one curmudgeon to another, I agree completely with your jaundiced view of such inane frippery. Next thing, we'll have people punctuating their posts with smiley faces! Down with superficial niceness!

Blogger Rocklea Marina May 06, 2018 5:24 AM  

BTW, has anyone seen a better paid troll nym than Shawn Hetherington? It practically screams WASP.

It needs a "The Third" at the end, or perhaps Lord or Baron. Pip pip, tallyho!

Blogger VD May 06, 2018 5:24 AM  

Why are you obsessed with Jordan Peterson?

Because, I am told, he is the most important public intellectual in the world. And when the most important public intellectual in the world is an intellectual charlatan, it is important to conclusively prove that to be the case.

OpenID markstoval May 06, 2018 6:39 AM  

@42

"I heard recently that Peterson demands one thing from the far left and from the far right.

The far right has to renounce race supremacy/isolation and the left has to renounce equality of outcome."


It is amazing that so many people have come up with the mistaken idea that the right-wing is all about race "supremacy". God gives different gifts and talents to each individual. The fact that some races have a much higher average IQ is just objective reality. While IQ is very important, it is not everything. To be "right-wing" does not equal "white supremacy" as this Peterson ass-hat seems to be saying.

As to "isolation", each nation (using the proper definition) wants to be with their own kind. It is just evolution to have that preference. Many others have said that mixing leads to violence. Let Peterson and his fellow Canadians host the world's young Arab invaders.

I would demand one thing of both the left and the right: and that is, realism. All men need to look at objective reality and act accordingly. If we did, then the first thing to go would be socialism in all its various disguises.

Blogger GithYankee May 06, 2018 7:25 AM  

Dumb comment, but just would like to say yes, absolutely, an exact and devastating takedown. How hard would it have been to just have Faith Goldy on his panel? If nothing else, she's hot and controversial. It's not the worst way to get listeners - a bunch of windbag Jungian fabulation is just as dishonest, if not moreso.

Peterson does the same thing as a cultural marxist, he just uses more right wing sources. His fans don't even know what the hell he's talking about. They just think it sounds intelligent.

Blogger Patrikbc May 06, 2018 7:51 AM  

I guess this doesn’t apply in this case?

But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you.”

If ever any society of Christians in this world, had reason to silence those not of their own communion, the twelve disciples at this time had; yet Christ warned them not to do the like again. Those may be found faithful followers of Christ, and may be accepted of him, who do not follow with us.-Mathew Henry

Blogger Avalanche May 06, 2018 8:29 AM  

@55 "Jordan Peterson defenders are not sending their best.... And some, I assume, are good people.

Thread winner!

Blogger Avalanche May 06, 2018 8:42 AM  

@57 (From that quotes list:) "A naively formulated goal transmutes, with time, into the sinister form of the life-lie."

And there's Peterson in a nutshell, is he not? He has taken his naive (and uneducated / uninspected) beliefs and formulated an entire edifice by which he lives --and teaches. (And there's the source of my desire to educate him, ("bury him, not praise him"?) out of his naive beliefs -- or at at least see if it's possible.

Chateau Life-lie. ("you can check out ... but you can neverrrrr leave")

Blogger VD May 06, 2018 9:13 AM  

I guess this doesn’t apply in this case?

But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you.”

Peterson is, by his own confession, against us. I know he is not a Christian, but I do not know yet if he is also a self-avowed enemy of Jesus Christ or not.

Blogger Avalanche May 06, 2018 9:34 AM  

@95 (*** My additions to MarkStoval's comment.) As to "isolation", each nation (using the proper definition*) wants to be with their own kind. It is just evolution to have that preference. Many others have said that mixing leads to violence.** Let Peterson and his fellow Canadians host the world's young Arab invaders.


For our new visitor-defenders and uneducated Jordan fans...

* (My note:) The "proper definition" as described by many Alt Right, and many not-so-far Right, comes from Steve Sailer:

https://www.unz.com/isteve/topic/partly-inbred-extended-family/

(quote from Sailer's article:) "The problem is that because it's easy to poke holes in the crudest forms of old-fashioned American racial concepts, such as the one-drop rule, that means you can jump all the way to Race Does Not Exist, which is even cruder and stupider. What we need instead is a more sophisticated way for doctors to think about race.

Fortunately, I invented (https://www.vdare.com/articles/its-all-relative-putting-race-in-its-proper-perspective) that way back in the 1990s: a racial group can most profitably be thought of as an extended family that is partly inbred. This is very close to being tautological, and, not surprisingly, lots of recent genetic data supports this insight.

The good news is that doctors shouldn't have too much trouble grasping my concept because it fits nicely as an extension of a concept they use all the time: the family medical history." (end quote)


[**] (My note:) The world-wide, across all human history, without fail or exception is:
Diversity plus proximity equal war.
We cannot and will not escape that. (The logical follow-on to that for many of us is: arm up, ammo up, and lift!)


(Also, really good; but when is Steve Sailer ever NOT really good)?

https://www.unz.com/isteve/do-the-major-races-represent-old-conquest-zones/

(and)

http://takimag.com/article/the_great_white_horse_steve_sailer#axzz1tgRmsrwt

(from which:)
And that suggests the most efficient definition of race: A racial group is a partly inbred extended family. (https://www.vdare.com/articles/its-all-relative-putting-race-in-its-proper-perspective) The inbreeding gives races more coherence and persistence than typical extended families.

Blogger Thomas Howard May 06, 2018 10:01 AM  

As a fellow martial artist, I would expect an understanding of the concept of physical conflict only as a last resort. We should maintain the self-discipline such that the techniques and training are reserved for the dojo or dojang. Verbal de escalation or running away are preferable for a number of reasons. Jumping to cowardice shouldn't be the first conclusion.

Blogger OGRE May 06, 2018 10:08 AM  

Strike first, strike hard, no mercy. Cobra Kai!

Blogger Brad Matthews May 06, 2018 10:09 AM  

I think this is the root of his problem. To spend time in scripture and do speaking tours on biblical topics, then walk away unsaved with Christ as an archetype and not the true redeemer means he is stuck trying to psychoanalyze away his despair and shame. Faith of a child.

Blogger Patrikbc May 06, 2018 10:20 AM  

Fair enough Vox.

Blogger VD May 06, 2018 10:34 AM  

As a fellow martial artist, I would expect an understanding of the concept of physical conflict only as a last resort.

For a trained adult, yes. For a teenage boy who publicly insulted a friend in class and has it coming, no. I showed up for every schoolyard fight to which I was challenged from first grade to ninth grade, even though I was the smallest and youngest in the class. Usually, I lost.

In eighth grade, the toughest kid in the school - the only one who didn't go to college and had a full mustache junior year - demanded that I see him outside at lunch time for no reason other than throwing his weight around. I hadn't done anything, but I duly showed up, which made him laugh and ask if I thought I had a chance. I admitted I didn't, but promised him he'd at least know he'd been in a fight. He laughed again, said, "you're all right," and suggested we call it even and go back inside to eat lunch. We were never friends, but after that, he never passed me without a nod of recognition.

Boys respect courage, in themselves and in others. Peterson would have far more respect for himself today if he hadn't run from Rene, but had fought back and taken his well-deserved beating.

Blogger Jackie Chun May 06, 2018 12:07 PM  

Insightful comment Vox. The argument I see a lot from red pill types is fighting is just two chumps beating each other up to win over a woman (which, speaking of orcas, actually does happen in nature with some animals!). The story I recall is a guy on /trp was saying he was on a date at a bowling alley when his girlfriend demanded he fight some guy who was being obnoxious. He said no, she loudly said he wasn't a man and her ex would have done it. So he said maybe she should go back to him and nected her.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 06, 2018 12:19 PM  

Next thing, we'll have people punctuating their posts with smiley faces!

(Shudder)

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants May 06, 2018 12:32 PM  

Better yet-why don't you go hide in a cave so the Boogey monsters eat you last?

Blogger Shawn Hetherington May 06, 2018 12:34 PM  

@81, "I just find it annoying. They say 'Cheers', but I hear ' I pretending to be friendly.' Now Rocklea has started doing it too.
If it's not nipped in the bud, it may spread."

Just so you know, I'm not pretending to be friendly, I'm just trying to wish people well. I have nothing personally against anyone here even though I know I don't share the same opinions.

I know that some people here will either read this as either fake or weak or what have you but I still do want to make sure that I do something to wish people well.

If it makes a difference, some people here do get under my skin but I still wish those people well too ;)

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants May 06, 2018 12:36 PM  

Ayn Rand was a immoral, narcissistic, money worshipping whore that needed an editor.

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants May 06, 2018 12:40 PM  

It takes courage to go from being a professor making around 170K a year, (does he even still have that gig?), to earning close to 70K a month JUST ON PATREON.
This doesn't include book sales, appearance fees, lecture fees, personality tests he sold at $20 a pop, YouTube adsense, etc.

What bravery, to go from 170K to making a million plus a year. I wish I had that kind of bravery...

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants May 06, 2018 1:10 PM  

I wrote of my usual rambly & slightly coherent posts that I must have deleted before sending, so I'll try to be more succinct this go-
Been watching JBP since he first hit the scene. He has admitted to taking anti-anxiety meds, which is evident if you watch various interviews, his demeanor, speech changes, half-lidded eyes give it away. I think he has been in the process of unraveling for quite some time & the meds are just keeping it all duct taped together.

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