Tuesday, May 01, 2018

Darkstream: the lunacy of Jordan Peterson

I'm doing a Periscope addressing my earlier post about Peterson today. This is the place for your comments on it, live or otherwise.

UPDATE: Even Peterson's fans have no faith in his intellectual integrity.
JBP will never debate Vox. It is a “No Win” for him. First he would take heavy criticism for even associating with Vox. Second even if he takes Vox apart no one will care, because outside of hardcore politics/culture war guys... no one knows Vox.
Of course he won't debate me. I never thought for a moment that he would, because it is far more likely that he would break down and cry than take me apart. Look, the reason the guy is always obsessing about making a mistake that will ruin him forever is because he's an imposter and he knows it.

Once you know he's a gamma, you know everything you need to predict his behavior. Success will make him more hubristic and self-righteous, then he'll self-sabotage.

UPDATE: This email was amusing, but I appreciated the sentiment.
Until today, I never really thought about how much flat-out lunacy and inanity you get hit with every freaking day.
Where do you think MPAI came from. Unlike Jordan Peterson's philosophy, Marcus Aurelius's is still useful. Peterson tells you to lie to yourself. Aurelius's advice is rather more useful.
Begin each day by telling yourself: Today I shall be meeting with interference, ingratitude, insolence, disloyalty, ill-will, and selfishness – all of them due to the offenders’ ignorance of what is good or evil. 
That's a bit more gracious than my version - the father of Commodus was obviously too optimistic - but it's good advice.

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Blogger The CronoLink May 01, 2018 7:02 PM  

Oh boy, this is gonna be good.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 01, 2018 7:09 PM  

Oh shit Mark...Levin just name checked both the Far Left and Alt-Right as being anti semitic!

Blogger dtungsten May 01, 2018 7:45 PM  

That was a really good Darkstream, thanks.

Blogger Eli May 01, 2018 7:47 PM  

I finally got to be part of a live darkstream. I really enjoyed it. Thanks for all you do Vox.

Blogger Lovekraft May 01, 2018 8:13 PM

Blogger Lovekraft May 01, 2018 8:21 PM  

Comments from JP fans are dismissive and deflective.

I remarked on their hypocrisy in doing exactly what JP rails against: the blocking of inquiry by institutional gatekeepers in academia.

Blogger ghostfromplanetspook May 01, 2018 8:22 PM  

Room Status: CLEANED

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 01, 2018 8:23 PM  

Oh teh commentzzzz

Blogger Cary May 01, 2018 8:55 PM  

Well JBP fans, I hope you enjoy this. You couldn't let it go. The Supreme Dark Lord will continue to bounce the rubble long after he has proven his points.

Vox, that was a very good job explaining everything tonight. I hadn't paid a lot of attention to Peterson and thought he was just a cuckservative until your stuff today. I had thought this was going to be a distraction. I'm selfish and want more Castalia books, but these views warrant the takedown. I look forward to your full review of his work.

Blogger Samuel Nock May 01, 2018 9:01 PM  

Vox is going to find this out for himself, but the 12 Rules (the book) has -- aside from any philosophical problems -- two major stylistic and organizational flaws:

One, it is incredibly wordy. I guess we should not be surprised that a guy who can lecture for five hours on a few passages in Genesis suffers from logorrhoea. But it is still unbelievable: he rambles and rambles and rambles; probably because he needed to turn basic stuff into a book-length treatment but it also speaks to the state of his mind and thought processes.

Two, he doesn't stick to the topic at hand: The "Rule" that heads each chapter barely relates in any way to the wordy dilations that follow. You will get to the end (and middle) of each chapter, wondering "What the hell was the rule again?" Or "When the hell is he going to address the rule?"

A couple of points about these flaws: Peterson claims to have spent _fifteen years_ writing Maps of Meaning. And the fruit of that labor was a very obtuse, dense and difficult book (i.e. not readable). When he took it upon himself to write a popular book for a general audience, and did so relatively quickly, the fruit is a rambling and self-indulgent treatise that leaves one scratching one's head about his ability to think clearly and convey thoughts clearly.

Compare this to Vox, whether one agrees with him or not: His non-fiction efforts (from TIA, RGD, SJWs and Cuckservative) have all been produced with amazing industry and speed, and yet - even his detractors might admit - are clearly written, not overly verbose and give their conclusions logically and methodically.

Blogger lynnjynh9315 May 01, 2018 9:06 PM  

You really need define this whole "gamma" thing. Googling it produces mixed results.

Topic for a Voxiversity???

Blogger Samuel Nock May 01, 2018 9:08 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Samuel Nock May 01, 2018 9:10 PM  

@12 Go here:

Or search "gamma" at that blog or here on Vox Popoli.

Blogger urbino May 01, 2018 9:14 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Bogey May 01, 2018 9:16 PM  

Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas? I can almost promise you that this a bar set way too high and it wont be met.

You do come off much more cordial in your videos.

Blogger D. May 01, 2018 9:24 PM  

"When asked about running for office in Ontario he said that to solve their power grid problems alone the sheer volume of reading and analysis he'd need to do would be too much."

Nah it is easy to solve their electrical generation problems: 1) ignore the "environmentalist" whack jobs, 2) import Marcellus gas from WVA, PA, OH, 3) build gas powered electrical generation.

Blogger Daniel Bendele May 01, 2018 9:25 PM  

Didn't get to see it live. When will the link be up on Youtube?

Blogger Nakota Publishing May 01, 2018 9:32 PM  

Because "Maps of Meaning" is reputed to be too dang long. I noted the same thing about "12 Rules" - my major criticism is that JP needs to be more concise.

Blogger Manuel May 01, 2018 9:48 PM  

Damn, if JBP isn't Gamma, then his most hardcore fans certainly are. Makes sense when you think about it.
@10 I concur with your observation about reading the 12Rules and constantly asking what this has to do with the Rule at hand.

Blogger Avalanche May 01, 2018 10:11 PM  

Brilliant Dark Stream, Dark Lord. Really thought provoking (as usual).

You mentioned (in various ways) that Peterson's stuff appears to be about being "safer" -- certainly he seems to have been very deeply (and badly) affected by his immersion in Marxist/Soviet atrocities: most of his house is filled with soviet "art" -- including a poster from the Ukraine telling the peasants that "it is wrong to eat your children"! (What normal person would chose to have such horrors in their house?) (The Podestas? Different kind of art?) THAT made me look askance... And he immersed himself in the "standard" holocaust narration(s) (true or not), and he discusses some horrific serial killer whose biography he deeply studied. He seems to have filled himself up with horrors.

I have thought (felt?) that this immersion into horror has driven him ... somewhere ... He posits often that the young people, young men esp., need to learn about their ability to be dangerous, to commit atrocities, so they can also learn to control that ability.

(I found - and think I still find -- persuasive his discussion that the weak person CANNOT be moral, because to be moral you must be dangerous, you must be capable of evil in order to choose to not be evil. If you're incapable of violence, of committing evil, of being a dragon, then you're merely a weak coward, not a moral man. Morality is in (he suggests) in knowing of yourself that you CAN be evil, and choosing not to.)

He actually tells his college classes that, contrary to their view of themselves -- that they would have been Schindler saving jews -- in fact, they would almost certainly have ALSO been camp guards. That normal people have within them -- and need to befriend -- their Shadow (Jungian); to know and not be driven or running from their Shadow selves.

So, the need for safety, for self-control, of/by a broken man, would naturally appeal to broken people. I'm reminded of your ... explanation ... of my blindness to the 'off' aspects of MZB's stuff (esp. Mists) was because I was broken. What appears to me to be normal/understandable in her writing motivates a recoil in non-damaged folks such as you and some of your commenters. (Thus, I found it edifying to read the reactions here to The Last Closet: strong men resisting reading it because they felt it would be too horrible, too much. I was mostly unsurprised reading it: horrified, pained, and dismayed; I cried but was not particularly surprised.

So, all these young men I keep trying to defend, to explain, to suggest that Peterson is reaching in their own pain and dismay, may indeed by 'saved' to some small extent -- at least to the extent that they are drowning in this pathological society. Peterson is throwing them a lifeline that is NOT dragging them to (ha.) "safety" -- but at least it pulls them out of the deep turbulent waters they are in.

Could be: it takes one to know one?

Blogger Cecil Henry May 01, 2018 10:41 PM  

Maps of Meaning really is an accomplishment and has a lot to say about the relationship between religion, psychology and human consciousness.

His 12 Rules book though is just a popularizing book and meant to sell, you can feel the publisher and editors and push for a moneymaker in the pages.

If Peterson had continued with the insight and honesty that made him write Maps of Meaning, he would reach to the issues of the WEst.

But he had stopped dead in his tracks when he approaches topics of real controversy and political impact. And the contrast is so visible it leaves me dumbfounded.

Such an insightful and thoughtful man: has reached a clear point of STOPTHINK.

Its disturbing to watch.

Blogger tublecane May 02, 2018 12:19 AM  

"the reason the guy is always obsessing about making a mistake that will ruin him forever is because he's an imposter and he knows it."

I might have guessed it's because he doesn't want to lose his university sinecure or be convicted of thoughtcrime. But now that you mention it, that mindset reminds me of what you might see in one of those movies about the walls closing in on fraudsters. Like Shattered Glass, the one about lying Stephen Glass. Every choice he makes cuts off a path of escape.

I don't know what it's like to live In the Arena of public intellectual life. I can't imagine the pressure. Worrying one misplaced word could ruin your career is foreign to me. But of course Vox lives In the Arena, and he doesn't live in fear. Peterson doesn't have to, either.

Blogger Andrea Daley Utronebel May 02, 2018 12:32 AM  

Peterson vs Peter Pan?

Blogger Zeke May 02, 2018 12:34 AM  

Great job. Thanks for doing it. For some reason periscope wouldn't allow me to login to comment. Lotta distractions in the periscope comments. Still, small potatoes compared with the chans. It's interesting to watch you see the distractions and decide to ignonre most, quickly address a few, and get back on topic.

Blogger tublecane May 02, 2018 12:38 AM  

@20- I agree with the point about cowards being incapable of moral action, but the rest sounds a bit drama queenish.

Everyone is capable of doing horrible things. However, most will never be in a position to be S.S. officers at a death camp. Nor shall they ever be slavers and war profiteers with an opportunity to save people.

A realistic "What would you have been in Nazi Germany?" test would be answered: digging ditches, baking bread, working in a factory, raising kids. You know, what most people do.

Blogger septentrionist May 02, 2018 1:24 AM  

Make your bed!

Blogger The Kurgan May 02, 2018 1:24 AM  

Umm.... link to the periscope?

Blogger Zeke May 02, 2018 1:33 AM

Blogger Doomfinger May 02, 2018 1:45 AM  

The room, the room, the room is on fire! We don't need no water let the motherfucker burn! Burn!

Blogger Harambe May 02, 2018 4:11 AM  

I can't wait for the movie Crouching Alpha, Secret Sigma

Blogger LP999-16 May 02, 2018 4:49 AM  

Listening to the peri, I think its high IQ discernment skills or perhaps God's work in your lives.

I refer to this and another book Markku recently asked me to read, anyhow I found this so helpful and healing in certain regards which remain unmentioned;

Vox and SB endure nothing but harassment to out right verbal abuse to what I think is due to their Christianity, which I can be wrong, not sure.

Which is why there are blog rules and unjust twitmo. I think perhaps if one is an AWCA anklebiters via 2001/2003 into present day prove as content to mere fun and sadly mpai to deconstruct arguments or document deception. So for someone like me whom isn't smart enough for real debate, its a education in logic, honesty and noting games to twisting the stats.

Intellectual integrity is important like loyalty...

I do not believe Vox is gaslighting JP, I noted how the broken or hurting will gravitate to a JP for answers, help and healing, sure JP might have an IQ but doubling down into deceptive or willful deluding oneself.

It is important Vox has addressed the JP matter.

Blogger wreckage May 02, 2018 5:17 AM  

Vox is abrasive. But I think it's mostly his unflinching honesty, or maybe truthfulness, that people really hate. That and, he's generally smarter than them, tougher than them, and has a hotter wife. Some people just can't deal with that, it messes with their Secret King fantasy.

Still and all, Vox analysis is always worth noting. If anything I think he sees deep roots to evil that aren't always there, but it's better to have people looking for it than being blindsided by it. To be clear, I just think evil is far more often banal, lazy, stupid, and possessed of a kind of dullness, as an overall drive.

All in all, he's maybe a bit pessimistic, but then, reality often has a pessimistic bias.

By contrast, Peterson I found entertaining. It will be very interesting to see how his thought develops, as being "outed" like he now is, he's either going to have to grow radically, or shrink radically, and I like to hope the fix isn't in yet - like I said, I kinda like him.

Now I know Vox doesn't blog for the thanks he gets, but thanks anyway. You're a mercurial character from my perspective, but it's certainly been educational.

Blogger Peter Gent May 02, 2018 6:19 AM  

Having a really good editor that you let do their job solves a lot of the problems people like Peterson have with their writing. The crux is letting them do their job...

Blogger Avalanche May 02, 2018 7:44 AM  

@25 "Everyone is capable of doing horrible things. However, most will never be in a position to be S.S. officers at a death camp. Nor shall they ever be slavers and war profiteers with an opportunity to save people."

I wonder if Peterson is so horrified at the idea that HE would have been a guard, or he would have committed atrocities (ha. projection, anyone? On self, not other?), that he is unable to see "the other side." (Perhaps he has met his Shadow self, and run screaming?)

(As an ex-Nazi; tip o' the hat to Vox for the "ex-") I have thought about the horrific things that were done (by all side; as in all wars). Would I have been a camp guard -- yes, if necessary. Look, we here talk, seriously or semi-seriously about the oncoming uncivil war, about 'your skin is your uniform,' about roundin' 'em up and throwin' 'em out. (And, mostly, we mean it.) Those are LEGIT actions against enemy forces and traitors inside the gates -- and they were legit when the Nazi's did them, too.

"World Jewry" declared war on Germany first and began actively trying to destroy them. Rounding the jews up and throwing them out was a legit response to an active enemy force inside the gates. (And, do you notice? The propaganda always pushes to the forefront: "And the ebil Nazzi's also killed the disabled and the gays." Seeing how our 'gay' population has degenerated our society -- would you not have locked them up if you could have back in the '70s and '80s? Or at least have forced them back into the closet to prevent/slow the degeneration? (For the other, I'm a eugenicist; I acknowledge that most here are not.)

Don't forget, most of what info is publicly available was written by the vindictive and conniving "victors" (well, the hangers-on, the urgers-on, of the victors). (Funny, too, how the swamp of propaganda showed up quite a while AFTER the war ended -- nothing contemporaneous. Huh.) How was Germany supposed to feed the imprisoned enemy force, when they could not even feed their own people? (WHY was Germany supposed to feed the imprisoned enemies when they couldn't feed their own people? Andersonville, anyone? Who gets excused, who doesn't?) "We" "good" Allies were strafing German farmers in their fields! Where was all this food supposed to come from?

How does locking up an (active) internal enemy in Germany differ from the U.S. locking up the (probably not actively enemy) Japanese and Germans in WWII? How does forcibly moving the jews out of Germany (and conquered lands) back to their horrific (designed and chosen) utopia, the USSR, differ from the U.S. forcibly sending the White Russians back to assured death in the USSR? At least the Germans were sending the jews to their soviet brethren; not, as "we" did, into the arms of their vicious and murderous enemies!

And, surely you don't think OUR military folks are 100% clean-handed in a war?!

Blogger Avalanche May 02, 2018 7:45 AM  

@25 A realistic "What would you have been in Nazi Germany?" test would be answered: digging ditches, baking bread, working in a factory, raising kids. You know, what most people do.

Yes, but Peterson seems (to my jaundiced eye) to be suggesting that doing those 'supporting my people' actions are the equivalent of being a camp guard. (Wonder if HE has done, in his peripatetic careers(s)including Alberta oil fields, bars, and all kinds of blue-collar jobs -- stuff his Shadow is hounding him about.)

Wonder if he throws the same opprobrium on the Abu Graib (sp?) kids -- they, too, were "camp guards" -- and took out some of their anger at the loss of friends on the prisoners. (Throw in some Zimbardo, and how could they NOT act so?) (I know a fellow who was there, mid-level officer, later civie contractor (by then, quite disillusioned about "protecting his country" such as he had originally signed up for) -- who said that "no, it really was not the U.S. hierarchy "allowing" the abuse; it was Mossad / IDF officers teaching it." I do not think he was a 'random jew hater' -- he was struggling because he really really wanted to go back and 'protect his brothers in arms.'

I happen to think Peterson might be only partly right: "most will never be in a position" to be committing atrocities -- but those most will still belong to their people, and will be in positions to do, willingly or unwillingly, some unpleasant and horrible things on BEHALF of their people. Even if it's just provide money or food or design/MFG or whatever to support their people! Or service the trains that are taking the internal enemy away. Would YOU not (100% willingly) service the planes that forcibly take several hundred thousand muzzies or africans out of OUR country and send them back to their places? I would.

My husband used to pose the (binary) question: "would you rather commit an atrocity or suffer one?"

No third choice: One atrocity is round 'em up and drive them away; the OTHER atrocity is suffer the rapes, tortures, murders, terrorism, child rape, beheadings, truck attacks, etc. etc. by allowing them to remain. Commit or suffer? faites votre jouer.

Blogger eyeslevel May 02, 2018 10:42 AM  

Jordan Peterson reminds me of Mikhail Gorbachev. As economic Marxism was failing, Gorbachev was sent in to try to save it from its insane excesses. JP is trying to save racial Marxism from its insane excesses. He will fail because any ideology based on a set of words, whether it be Marxism or Political Correctness, cannot tolerate any serious questioning of those words. It cannot allow free speech. Those "insane excesses" are not bugs of wordist ideologies, they are features. They are inevitable. As long as JP adheres to racial Marxism, he is supporting speech restrictions even if he doesn't want to, even if he thinks he is doing the opposite.

Blogger Gordon Scott May 02, 2018 10:50 AM  

Avalanche, "we" had barely entered the war in January 1942, when the Wannsee conference took place. We certainly weren't strafing any German farmers before 1944.

Blogger Hermit May 02, 2018 3:59 PM  

I've been following Dr. Peterson for a while, before his peak of popularity, I was mainly interested in the psychological work and not on politics.
I believe there is some value to be found in his lectures about personal realization, life, social competence and overall fixes for our modern alienated males.
His explanation of mythology is however insufficient, like Jung was, and stuck on the personal, individual, archetipal level as if they were just personal dreams. His individualism blinding from the fact that myths are essentially revelations of super-human collective truths.

That said it was fully evident his politics is completely unacceptable.
At best he's an old classical liberal conservative born in the wrong decade, where identity politics is on the rise all over the world and it concerns the very future of our people.
At worst he's a trojan horse, blinding many frustrated people that would join the right and setting them on the path of enlightenment lies making them embrace an older version of progressivism instead of the mentally ill postmodern version.
We had enough of the spawn of the French Revolution, this time either the western civilization returns to be western christendom or it dies forever punished by the muslim hordes (acting in ther barbarism as the instrument of God's just wrath, as the babylonians did).

P.S. It's been 2 years at least since my last comment here. It was a great ride.

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