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Wednesday, May 02, 2018

Mailvox: truth-bait for the broken

Daniel makes an interesting observation about the similarities between Jordan Peterson's nameless quasi-philosophy and Dianetics.
There are some interesting overlaps between Peterson's 12 rules and Dianetics 8 Dynamics. L. Ron Hubbard was also highly intelligent, mentally unhinged, AND deeply helpful to some broken people.

In fact, most ex-Scientologists will tell you that the hook - "Dianetics works" - is, at a basic level, very true for a very lost person. It is the truth-bait for the broken that sucks them in and seals them into the cult.

8 Dynamics of Dianetics:
  • Self: Peterson has rule 1, 2 and 10
  • Sex: Rule 5
  • Group: Rule 3, 9
  • Mankind: Rule 6, 11, 4
  • Animal: Rule 12
  • Universe: not applicable
  • Spiritual: Rule 7
  • Infinity: Rule 8
This all is related to your thesis that methadone is only okay for the addict. A lot of people were helped by Dianetics in the 1950s, before there ever was a Scientology. It was an intoxicatingly useful deception.
While there is no indication that Peterson actually intends to expand his mental chaos management into a full-blown religion, the possibility that it could be a nascent Dianetics 2.0 merits further contemplation. Fortunately, at this point, he appears to be more interested in Canadian politics than in creating an actual cult.

UPDATE: I did a Darkstream discussing this and the first chapter of 12 Rules for Life: Jordan Peterson is bait for the broken.

I particularly enjoyed this comment. I look forward to quoting it again once I have convinced even the most dubious Peterson fan that my case against him and his philosophy is conclusive.
Vox, you are a fucking loon. You know absolutely nothing about the guy and hadn't watched any of his videos or interviews or read his books or talked to him.........but you just knew that he was intellectually dishonest, now you say he's mentally ill, he's totally fucking insane, his philosophy is insane and incomplete, he's a gamma, he's in a bubble, he's deluded,........Dude, you are telling trying to tell the world what the moon is made of after looking at it once.
It's a good point. Imagine how smart and discerning I must be to be able to do so correctly.

Rule 33: Notice that opportunity lurks where responsibility has been abdicated.
- Jordan Peterson

You know, there just might be a book in that one.

Labels: , , ,

87 Comments:

Blogger RobertT May 02, 2018 5:27 PM  

He's primarily interested in putting on a show & attracting attention. There's a lot of theatrics in his lectures. Frustrated movie star. Cult may work.

Blogger LP999-16 May 02, 2018 5:31 PM  

Ron was harmful to say the least; "It was an intoxicatingly useful deception." Correct.

Blogger Latigo3 May 02, 2018 5:32 PM  

I wonder if Peterson likes Kool-Aid?

Blogger tz May 02, 2018 5:41 PM  

I just finished the Sam Harriss podcast with JP.
Surreal. Painful.
But there was one very simple problem - Just like a "transgender" with a penis, testes, and a beard insisting they be called "woman" and female pronouns be used, JP insists on the word "true" means something utterly different than any dictionary or 1000 people from any group would say it means. He means prudent from a Darwinian survival perspective. So the discussion has Harriss attempting to nail down jello giving examples of "truth", trying to distinguish goodness and beauty - and prudence and other virtues belong to the good, not the true. I'm not sure I know enough, but it was creepy enough to maybe think omega over gamma.
Hariss could easily have done some dialectic ju-jitsu by simply asking why he bothers objecting to the gendering language when it might be "true" in his very own sense - it would be better to drain the insane and confused from the gene pool, and the fact of chromosomes or organs or body features are merely the micro whatever he dismisses. If it helps the human race survive, then the basso profundo bearded convex crotch being is truly a woman.

Blogger repent or perish May 02, 2018 5:48 PM  

I'm guessing that creating a cult would probably do less damage than him intervening in the Canadian political system.

Blogger electricsheeple May 02, 2018 5:50 PM  

It's also interesting to compare Peterson to Scientology because I've heard Elron Hubbard biographers say that Scientology was at first created because Hubbard was trying to cure himself (at least in the beginning). VD interprets Peterson to be doing the same.


I give Hubbard 1 point over Peterson because he wrote original fiction rather than reinterpreting all other fiction to fit into his world view.


I give Peterson 1 point over Hubbard for not starting a full blown organized religion.

Blogger Dexter May 02, 2018 5:52 PM  

I prefer Dioretix, the science of Matter Over Mind.

Blogger IrishFarmer May 02, 2018 5:53 PM  

For those who havent listened to the Harris-Peterson podcast. Its two hours, yeah, but its worth the time. I still cant figure out if Peterson is just fundamentally dishonest or if he did that thing John C Wright talks about where he rejected reason and now its impossible to use reason to convince him otherwise. Or both. You gotta listen tho its like watching a train wreck.

Blogger The Service May 02, 2018 5:53 PM  

Was L. Ron Hubbard a Gamma? It seems to me that he was, and in a far more extreme and pathological way than Peterson.

To all appearances, so was Keith Raniere, the leader of the pubis-branding sex cult, for which the recently arrested Allison Mack was the head slave.

Is there a connection between Gammaness and a certain cheesy kind of cult leader?

Blogger Were-Puppy May 02, 2018 5:53 PM  

This is starting to remind me of the tales of the Pied Piper.

Or people running along with Forrest Gump for some inexplicable reason.

Blogger electricsheeple May 02, 2018 6:07 PM  

The Service wrote:Was L. Ron Hubbard a Gamma? It seems to me that he was, and in a far more extreme and pathological way than Peterson.

To all appearances, so was Keith Raniere, the leader of the pubis-branding sex cult, for which the recently arrested Allison Mack was the head slave.

Is there a connection between Gammaness and a certain cheesy kind of cult leader?



He probably was an alpha, albeit of the Satanic variety. I believe he got sex very easily. He moved into Jack Parson's house and cucked him by stealing his girl friend and running away (they stole Parson's boat and all his money as well). Parson pathetically remained a loyal follower. If the movie The Master (where he's played by Phillip Seymour Hoffman) is accurate, then his wife allowed him to cheat openly while she remained faithful.


Doubt Peterson could pull any of that off even if he wanted to.

Blogger Mike Hertz May 02, 2018 6:26 PM  

This is still a thing......

Blogger VD May 02, 2018 6:32 PM  

This is still a thing......

You must be new here.

Blogger Mr. Deficient May 02, 2018 6:41 PM  

This seems ridiculous as Peterson's rules would apply to DD #1 first and foremost due to him being a darwinian. Second, he rejects the notion of groups such as nation, race etc. Finally, the attempt at matching is just lazy. In no way does pet a cat correspond with the desire for survival of all animals (even if it wasn't a metaphor).

Full disclosure I had to look up both as I couldn't remember the rules off hand and I've never looked into DD.

OpenID simplytimothy May 02, 2018 6:41 PM  

OT: Never apologize to the SJW's making headway (Via Woodpile Report) https://www.dailywire.com/news/29888/mrctvs-brittany-hughes-goes-offense-stop-frank-camp

Blogger Unknown May 02, 2018 6:44 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Mr. Deficient May 02, 2018 6:44 PM  

I have also been thinking about the condemnation of this man for his mental health and inability . I would posit that any great philosophers and men of God did the same thing in trying to attempt to fix their broken mental world. The problem then is not seeking redemption in of itself but foregoing redemption in Christ for redemption in something is stupid as psychology

Blogger Darwinite May 02, 2018 6:47 PM  

My understanding is that Peterson argues that human interaction and agency works through logos and narrative, and so can be considered a separate system from objective, scientific reality. Following from that, he says that the narrative structure is embedded in the psyche, and its archetypes can embody psychological truths that he considers more meaningful than scientific truths. I think I’ve stated that fairly, but feel free to correct me as I’m quite new to philosophy.

I see a lot of people on recent threads saying that that is false and crazy, but can someone please explain why, or point me to a resource that does? I suppose I could wait for Vox to finish the books…

Blogger tublecane May 02, 2018 6:48 PM  

@4-The True, Good, Beautiful test is a handy trick for detecting intellectual integrity. Surprised Harris of all people would use it.

Blogger Unknown May 02, 2018 6:49 PM  

What's the beef with JBP? This is the age of multicultism: blogs, youtube, facebook. It's a free market. Charismatic personalities peddle one form of listen-to-me-I'm-relevant shill or another every day in the gullibility market. Some more effective than others obviously.

The road to cultism is well-travelled: use Christ as your hook, dress up your personal prejudices to look as much like salvation as you can, then peddle it in as many ways as your intelligence and wit are able. Books, novels, lectures, debates, podcasts, political identitarianism etc, all help to drum up membership.

The cultists all have one thing in common: a wardrobe full of the emperor's new clothes.

Blogger MJimmy May 02, 2018 7:04 PM  

JBP's charismatic blend of Jimmy Stewart, Kermit the Frog and LRH is an effective marketing strategy. He has good potential as a Shakespearean actor if nothing else pans out. (Hat tip to electricsheeple).

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 02, 2018 7:06 PM  

OT:

Don Blankenship, West Virginia Shit Lord. Calls out Elaine Chao's father as a China Person and refuses to apologize, calls McConnell "Cocaine Mitch".

Expected to brutalize Jenkins and Morrissey in the WV GOP Senate primary election.

Blogger Lovekraft May 02, 2018 7:20 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger tz May 02, 2018 7:23 PM  

At least L Ron Hubbard could write Sci Fi (I won't comment on the quality as I've never read them, but they didn't seem to be totally pink SF at the time.

Scientology, with its meters and whatever was and is a cult, see Hollywood...

JP is just strange. He is fighting SJWs on one level but manages to be somewhere else (hence my question on gamma v.s. omega - and if you don't caricature things too much, there is a subtle creep factor).

Blogger tz May 02, 2018 7:26 PM  

@20 it works well until the guru commands you to drink the jonestown kool-aid or whatever for the hale bopp comet cult.

Now it would fit in perfectly with JP's "Darwinian survival true" as they would discontribute their genes to the future, but even stupid people ought to be warned.

Blogger Lovekraft May 02, 2018 7:29 PM  

If the end result of this is the return to proper mental disorder diagnosis and treatment, and an end to the decades-old public experiment of letting nutjobs push their views on society, then there will be something we will look back upon with admiration.

Blogger Ingot9455 May 02, 2018 7:31 PM  

Battlefield Earth was worth the money you paid for it by the pound.

Blogger ghostfromplanetspook May 02, 2018 7:33 PM  

Great stream! Hope Peterson figures out how to uncrazy his brain.

Blogger VD May 02, 2018 7:35 PM  

What's the beef with JBP?

He lied and his fans came here to repeatedly tell me he didn't. Better get used to it, this isn't ending any time soon.

Blogger Robert Pinkerton May 02, 2018 7:39 PM  

It is as if our Jewish fellow Earth-walkers are claiming an exclusive patent on group survival by formula, and treating Euro-derived people as infringers on that patent when we even make incomplete overtures toward copying their techniques for ethnic solidarity.

Blogger Salt May 02, 2018 7:45 PM  

Dianetics 2.0, fascinating. Doesn't shock me.

OpenID kbswift May 02, 2018 7:50 PM  

@12 This is certainly more entertaining than Scalzi bashing.

Blogger Lazarus May 02, 2018 7:54 PM  

What is a moon?
Who did not go to the moon?
Alice?
Cheese.
Green.
Learn my Comms.
Try harder.

L

Blogger Wolfman at Large May 02, 2018 8:00 PM  

Just here for the moon cheese but man are these Peterson fans annoying.

Still there but the grace of God go I.

Blogger MJimmy May 02, 2018 8:12 PM  

Who was teaching?
Who was being taught?
The Mambo.
Bang.
Zoom.
These people are sick.
M

Blogger Crush Limbraw May 02, 2018 8:27 PM  

I have relatives in Canada - it is my personal observation that the terms we use in the US - like conservative, liberal, etc. never mind alt-right - are differently perceived.
Just as I grew out of Conservatism - is JP just a baby step from the Canadian cultural morass?
Any Canucks on this thread?

Blogger S. Thermite May 02, 2018 8:28 PM  

I’d made it to chapter four of “12 Rules...” before this kerfuffle and am reading more now. Viewing it through the insanity lens our Supreme Darl Lord has so graciously provided has somewhat detracted from my enjoyment of the material, but it also makes a lot of sense. Peterson, with all his meandering verbosity, sounds almost as much likes he’s trying to teach and convince himself as he is the reader/listener. There’s still some good content, but I’m not seeing anything to discredit Vox’s assessment. I also had to deduct some points from Peterson when I got to the part where he quoted a very gnostic-sounding passage from the “Gospel of Thomas.”

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 02, 2018 8:30 PM  

"...where he quoted a very gnostic-sounding passage from the “Gospel of Thomas.”
That's because the falsely-called Gospel of Thomas is one of the classic Gnostic texts

Blogger S. Thermite May 02, 2018 8:42 PM  

I figured as much, Snidely. Have read all the NT gospels several times but I’ve never heard any real Christian do more than scoff at GoT. Also, something about a giant-sized talking cross or other such nonsense.

Blogger Cloom Glue May 02, 2018 8:42 PM  

Darwinite wrote:My understanding is that Peterson argues that human interaction and agency works through logos and narrative, and so can be considered a separate system from objective, scientific reality. Following from that, he says that the narrative structure is embedded in the psyche, and its archetypes can embody psychological truths that he considers more meaningful than scientific truths. I think I’ve stated that fairly, but feel free to correct me as I’m quite new to philosophy.

I see a lot of people on recent threads saying that that is false and crazy, but can someone please explain why, or point me to a resource that does? I suppose I could wait for Vox to finish the books…


I notice nobody engaged your question. For me, a Christian, it is because your name, Darwinite, already says some idea you are married to.

Next, you are trying to talk philosophy having started with absorbing those "narrative structure" phrases. I am just going to tell you there is a tremendous amount of mental gymnastics philosophy that is junk, and some of it not being junk, still does not get you from point A to point B, in your life.

Start with a basic idea of overcoming sin, an absolute idea, rules already written in your spirit, and quit psychology based narratives that are not absolutes. That is what is shunned as relative, the opposite of absolute. You must have read that in the other threads. Search the blog for "moral relativism", "existential relativism" and go reread those. Most here reject a lot of philosophies. I do. So I can't discuss foreign junk.

Blogger Lovekraft May 02, 2018 8:44 PM  

@36 Crush:

SW Ontario. What do you want to know?

Blogger Dave May 02, 2018 8:50 PM  

Rule 33: Notice that opportunity lurks where responsibility has been abdicated.
- Jordan Peterson

You know, there just might be a book in that one.


All right, just how many damn rules did he stuff in this book?

Blogger Jack Ward May 02, 2018 8:56 PM  

@VD Rule 33: Notice that opportunity lurks where responsibility has been abdicated.
- Jordan Peterson

You know, there just might be a book in that one

OH, no. I'm too far behind in my reading already. Would you make it fiction where JP begins to fantasize that he's the anti Christ then manages to prove it? Or, fact where turns out he is the anti Christ? Yeah, you know there really might be a book there.

@27 Ingot; Re Battlefield Earth. Yes. Its long for sure. Not to bad really. I think by then he was getting a pretty good rate per word and started to milk it all. After Earth it all got not worth reading his stuff. I once tried to digest Dianetics. Not long before into the circular file it went.
How does anyone with half a neuron still firing get into and stay with scientology? That said there are still two actors I still like to watch that did drink the koolaid but managed, more or less, to keep their acting up to standard.

Blogger Cloom Glue May 02, 2018 8:58 PM  

@36 I am Canuckistani. When Jordan Peterson mused about being Prime Minister, I thought he would lose and he was overestimating his popularity.

There is an election in June in the biggest province. If that homo female sex rebel feminist multi-culturalist mohammedanist leader, who teaches sodomy fornication to the children, wins again, then use that as a gauge of Canada. She got some mild public opposition to the child issue, but not anything else.

Many of my neighbours think she will lose. But they all voted for her last time, I AM SURE.

I do not understand what makes people change their minds. All I hear is they want to be moderate, and "he was a dictator". What is that about? I don't know.

Blogger Darwinite May 02, 2018 8:59 PM  

The name refers to the city, not the theorist - I too am a Christian. I’ll look up those key words, thank you.

Blogger tz May 02, 2018 9:00 PM  

Kool-aid. Jordan Bitter Almonds.

Blogger Michael Maier May 02, 2018 9:03 PM  

Vox beating another horse.

I feel warm watching this. Like SOMETHING in my life is as it should be.

Which kind of sucks, because my limited exposure to JP led me to like him. Esp for him being a big middle finger to the PC crowd.

Blogger Cloom Glue May 02, 2018 9:13 PM  

@45 That is funny, re: Darwin. I presumed. Now you know Jordan Peterson is not Christian. That is important when you read somebody's material. You're welcome.

Blogger John Best May 02, 2018 9:21 PM  

I just looked at his latest live stream, top comment is some who started crying because JP started crying in the live stream. I am rather sickened this guy has such a massive following, he is clearly a fake and manipulating people. Little wonder all the low tories are using him.

Blogger urbino May 02, 2018 9:32 PM  

VD, you're right about him admitting to 95% lies in his youth. I remembered it as 90 because I couldn't believe someone could lie that much.

I think what Peterson has done is look at Jung's work and maybe others, then Peterson's savior complex kicked in and he decided he could do the same, only better, and save the world. Maps of Meaning was the result.

I'm no expert on Jung, but as I understand it he treated the psyche as a separate reality in order to develop a model to make sense of its structure and dynamics. Psychological contents were his raw material. He established clear boundaries to work within, and emphasized that it wasn't theology, metaphysics, mysticism or anything else. I don't know how well he adhered to those boundaries. Maybe due to the IQ communication gap most of his fans made up their own truths about it and flew of into la-la land. Peterson added a heap of modern psychology, blew out the boundaries, and projected irrational psychological content out onto the world in a chaotic manner.

It's quite telling that Peterson made up his own vague interpretation of Medieval dragon-slaying stories in which the hero frees a captive virgin. Jung concluded that they are a projection of what we'd call the gamma to delta transformation, in which the dragon symbolizes a negative Mother Complex. Peterson sometimes talks with a kind of horrified awe about Mother Complex issues, but never digs into the details.

Blogger Dave May 02, 2018 9:44 PM  

Ok I see now what he did with these rules: https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-most-valuable-things-everyone-should-know/answer/Jordan-B-Peterson

The 12 "Rules" are culled from the MVT (Most Valuable Things) 40 item list. Apparently in the book all 40 MVTs are now "Rules".

Blogger Shamgar May 02, 2018 9:51 PM  

Don't know if anyone has posted this, the Red Pill group with Tomassi et al. :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGrhpxJoarY
At one point that Black Label Logic compares JBP's writing exercises to Scientology, so Vox is not far off.

Blogger Cary May 02, 2018 9:51 PM  

I read the transcript of the Peterson-Harris podcast today. It is something to behold. I kept thinking he has to concede something to Harris, but for 32 pages covering 2 hours of talking he continues to weave and obfuscate. I encourage everyone to actually read it for yourself. VD’s description of existential relativism makes sense to me.

My question for VD, or anyone else who read it, is whether it is an accurate interpretation of what he said that he would call something he considered a factually good description as untrue if it led to a bad outcome? For example, even if JBP thought that Ashkenazi Jews didn’t have a 115 mean IQ, he might still consider that as true if he saw it leading to a better outcome of positively explaining their dominance. Contrariwise, even if in-group preferences were the real reason, he couldn’t call that the truth because such an idea could lead to a negative outcome like the holocaust.

I’m not arguing that is why he is holding to that position, but it seemed to be an implication from his Darwinian view of truth being dependent on the moral outcome. Am I reading the craziness correctly, or getting lost in the confusion?

This would also explain why he seems to practically endorse Christianity when it’s clear he doesn’t actually believe its underlying truth claims.

Blogger Dave May 02, 2018 9:52 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Crush Limbraw May 02, 2018 9:53 PM  

Is my perception of Canadian politics and mindset somewhat on target - baby step?

Blogger Crush Limbraw May 02, 2018 9:57 PM  

Vox - I don't think you can separate JP and Canadian politics/culture - they're a couple!

Blogger Dave May 02, 2018 9:59 PM  

Rudy Giuliani tonight on Hannity Fox:

"My biggest regret was turning down the Attorney General position"

I almost wish he'd never went public on this. Ah Rudy, you fool

Blogger Damn Crackers May 02, 2018 10:06 PM  

Wait until he starts peddling his P-meter...

Seriously, I don't know about Dianetics, but Scientology has so much in common with Gnostic heresies, such as Xenu = Demiurge, Thetans = trapped souls, etc.

Blogger John Smith May 02, 2018 11:53 PM  

https://imgur.com/a/uC5lGif LOL

Blogger Cogniblog May 03, 2018 12:21 AM  

Pool's closed due to thetans.

Blogger Brick Hardslab May 03, 2018 12:29 AM  

If he really is eyeing a run he might view this as an opportunity to burnish his, "anti-racist" credentials.

I suspect he'll pass on vox and look for someone he can use as a safer sparring partner.

Blogger Dirk Manly May 03, 2018 12:51 AM  

"Was L. Ron Hubbard a Gamma?"

Let's look at the facts of his career as a commissioned officer in the US Navy during WW2.

While the commander of a Patrol Craft (somewhat smaller than a PT [Patrol, torpedo] boat.

1: Spent 2 days dropping depth charges on a whale. Now, there's no way a whale can stay submerged for even a day. The thing HAD to have come to the surface a number of times ... and yet it took Ensign Hubbard a bit over 48 hours to realize that he was chasing something with a blowhole, and without a periscope or conning tower. Poor critter.



2: Decided to have an impromptu target practice with his boat's weapons -- using MEXICAN soil as the impact area. This almost started a war with Mexico (nominally an ally) in the midst of WW2.

Certainly seems like a not-even-in-control-of-himself individual.

Blogger Samuel Nock May 03, 2018 1:42 AM  

“While there is no indication that Peterson actually intends to expand his mental chaos management into a full-blown religion, the possibility that it could be a nascent Dianetics 2.0 merits further contemplation.“

Uh, actually....

Video: How Christianity Will be Replaced With Something Bigger”

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gi5GdcLD76A

Come on, Vox. You don’t expect Christianity to hold up against Clean-Your-Room-and-Pet-a-Cat’ianity, do you?

Blogger Jack Amok May 03, 2018 2:39 AM  

"Was L. Ron Hubbard a Gamma?"

Let's look at the facts of his career as a commissioned officer in the US Navy during WW2.


Holy smokes. I just finished reading the article about his military career. What a self-aggrandizing fabulist. Our own Tiny Tim was cut from his cloth.

Blogger bob kek mando - ( your mom always did like me best ) May 03, 2018 2:46 AM  

6. electricsheeple May 02, 2018 5:50 PM
because I've heard Elron Hubbard biographers say that Scientology was at first created because Hubbard was trying to cure himself



oh, please.

Scientology is the result of a bet that Hubbard made against Aleister Crowley as too which of them could create the most successful religion.

Blogger Jack Amok May 03, 2018 2:58 AM  

Let's look at the facts of his career as a commissioned officer in the US Navy during WW2.

But we can be thankful L. Ron single-handedly saved the US West Coast from a Japanese invasion.

Holleeeeee-wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuud!

Blogger Jack Amok May 03, 2018 3:03 AM  

Arkhaven really needs a villain who walks around with a knife muttering to himself "Don't be evil! Don't be evil! Don't be..."

Blogger Resident Moron™ May 03, 2018 3:27 AM  

Fortunately, at this point, he appears to be more interested in Canadian politics than in creating an actual cult.

Some unintended humour here? Modern politics IS nothing but a cult of personality. Look at the religious fanatics of the Hillary cult and their mirror image the never trumpers ....

Peterson will be totally in his natural element surrounded by liars and fools.

Blogger great_o'rety May 03, 2018 4:49 AM  

Cary wrote:
My question for VD, or anyone else who read it, is whether it is an accurate interpretation of what he said that he would call something he considered a factually good description as untrue if it led to a bad outcome? For example, even if JBP thought that Ashkenazi Jews didn’t have a 115 mean IQ, he might still consider that as true if he saw it leading to a better outcome of positively explaining their dominance. Contrariwise, even if in-group preferences were the real reason, he couldn’t call that the truth because such an idea could lead to a negative outcome like the holocaust.

Admittedly, I've had enough after about 1/3 of it, so that's that. But yeah, I would say that would be the core of it if you stripped it of all its meandering verbiage. And that is how you know he has to serve the Prince of Lies (even if he's not fully aware of it, but I'm doubtful after watching his theatrical fits of crying breakdowns during some of his lectures).

I’m not arguing that is why he is holding to that position, but it seemed to be an implication from his Darwinian view of truth being dependent on the moral outcome. Am I reading the craziness correctly, or getting lost in the confusion?

As I wrote in an earlier thread - he puts his delusion about what will come to be and his moral judgment based on this delusion ("moral outcomes") before the truth of objective reality. Hence he's crazy. Before you can judge the value of something, you have to know the truth of it - that's sanity. Having it backwards - insanity. Quite simple if you ask me.

Blogger select star May 03, 2018 4:56 AM  

"He lied and his fans came here to repeatedly tell me he didn't."

Vox doesn't appreciate Peterson's fans trying to gaslight him.

Blogger Resident Moron™ May 03, 2018 5:00 AM  

They’re trying to convince him he’s wrong by giving him a negative consequence.

Like your worst school teacher beating you for giving the wrong answer to a math question.

This is modern education; plus ca change ...

Blogger Resident Moron™ May 03, 2018 5:01 AM  

Instead of beating you your teacher calls you a nazi then antifa beats you when you get out of class.

Outsourcing authoritarian arseholery ...

Blogger select star May 03, 2018 5:17 AM  

"Like your worst school teacher beating you for giving the wrong answer to a (commoncore) math question."

Good point. Yeah don't see Vox's morale improving but I am sure they will keep trying.

Blogger select star May 03, 2018 5:19 AM  

"Outsourcing authoritarian arseholery ..."

Dropping depth charges on whales falls under that category as well.

Blogger great_o'rety May 03, 2018 5:32 AM  

@52:
Tomassi's "Rationale Male" is the only red pill book I've read, but I must say him wearing a damn cap indoors, just like the king of gammatude, GRR Martin himself, kinda didn't bolster his credibility as one of the main prophets of manosphere.

Blogger Cary May 03, 2018 5:41 AM  

great_o'rety wrote:As I wrote in an earlier thread - he puts his delusion about what will come to be and his moral judgment based on this delusion ("moral outcomes") before the truth of objective reality. Hence he's crazy. Before you can judge the value of something, you have to know the truth of it - that's sanity. Having it backwards - insanity. Quite simple if you ask me.

Thanks for your reply. This was well put. It's so bizarre that it's hard to follow.

Blogger Uncle John's Band May 03, 2018 6:58 AM  

@ 63. Samuel Nock

"Uh, actually....

Video: How Christianity Will be Replaced With Something Bigger”

Starting a religion would make sense if the gamma delusion bubble keeps expanding. It also makes sense defensively. As his flaws gain traction, Peterson's followers followers likely split between true believers and those who got something then moved on. The ability to attract smart followers is also curtailed. It's easy to see the germ of a religion in the remaining blend of cult and siege mentalities, especially with Peterson's personality.

Blogger Patrikbc May 03, 2018 7:26 AM  

BRING OUT THE ROYAL DEAD HORSE!!!!

Blogger Rocklea Marina May 03, 2018 7:36 AM  

This is still a thing......

I look forward to The Collected Columns edition.

Blogger Lovekraft May 03, 2018 8:00 AM  

@44 CloomGlue: apart from the major immigrant liberal voting blocks in the GTA, and the feminists/betas, I think this election could see a Tory win. Note that Ford committed to a massive audit of liberal spending should he be elected. That alone would put the libs on the defensive for years.

@ 50 Urbino:

funny you mentioned the Middle Ages damsel in distress story. Dalrock posted this topic just the other day. Numerous interpretations on the message here.

https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2018/04/27/the-love-of-a-virtuous-pagan-woman-tames-the-beast-inside/

Blogger Avalanche May 03, 2018 8:31 AM  

@29 VD: [q] He lied and his fans came here to repeatedly tell me he didn't. Better get used to it, this isn't ending any time soon.[/q]

Thanks for the kind mention on the Dark Stream. I'm not really (well, intending to seem) aggressive about defending Peterson; more ... hopelessly grasping for some good left over after the lying/wrongness. (I lie, almost always by omission, about some Alt Right things in public. Many of my woke friends do too -- we're not yet anti-fragile. But I/we were taught that and other cautions by 'elders' in the awakened state.)

I even, in a fit of pique, posted (both text and memes) WAY more than is healthy for me on a gun forum where I am well-liked; got some good answers and some "you're racist and anti-semitic" slurs... and then, a few days later, I took down some of the 'worst' of it; but included a: 'here's why I am deleting some stuff. By posting the truth I've threatened not just my livelihood, but also the moderator we all love (who did not censor me harshly enough -- or at all), as well as the actual (commercial) owners of the forum.'

My view is, a bell once rung cannot be unheard. I have planted seeds in the minds of a bunch of lovely old "conservative" {gag} men. Some will grow. Some of that growth will include them spreading truth further still. So, small win.

Peterson is (I hold --yeah-okay, a bit desperately) way too public, in fine-y jail-y SJW-infested Canuckistan, to speak the truth even if he sees it (or understands it) (or whatever). But he IS planting seeds of biological realism, and anti-PC language, and the govt forcing speech, and so on. (He’s ringing the bell.) I think more of the young people will take his 'hand up' out of the poison, begin to see the activists for the malign agents they are, and continue to or begin to self-educate.

Y'all make jokes about the lobsters - but it IS surprising and eye-opening to learn that their 'dominance hierarchy' circuits in their not-quite-brains, run on the exact same serotonin ours do -- and that (human) anti-depressants work on them too! (I’m immersed in that stuff, and never knew.) You cannot hear that and not go "Whoa!" And, it matters not whether 'God dun all' or Nature -- not at the toddler-recovery stage!

I know you dislike vids, Vox, but I'd ask you to consider watching the BBC4's half-hour not-really-an interview. It's:
1. very very funny;
2. a short-class in feminist cult idiocy;
3. (and this is the one I value most) shows a calm (if astonished), reasoned, and gently masculine way to respond to a feminist idiot
3a. (which gentle manner of response, you'll be unsurprised to know, I need lessons in {rueful G}.)
3b. (I always told my advice list folks that I was NOT hoping to change the idiot arguing with me -- I was 'speaking' to the audience. to the lurkers and listeners. They need the info and education; the arguer was merely the teaching tool I was using.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54

(Oh, and not that you need any -- but it's prime material for SJWs Always Project!)

Blogger Avalanche May 03, 2018 8:31 AM  

I see the pain in our young men, and any anodyne is welcome. I have hope that many of them, once they've stood up straight and cleaned their rooms and found that they are absolutely worthwhile after all (and also part-lobster), will be able to go further, to awaken further. After all, we teach a 4-yr-old to pick up his toys, and that he is lovable and loved, before we begin to teach him to use his indoor voice and not throw food (or tantrums) in a restaurant... And all that before we begin to teach him how to get on in the world.

The huge numbers of young men who are ducking college (because they're already been in the fetid swamp that is "education" and been told a million times they are disgusting criminals, latent rapists, and evil oppressors) don't know where to turn. I still see Peterson dragging them out of the quicksand, even if he can't give them directions to the nearest civilization. But I'm hoping we can be there to point them where to go next.

To couch it in Peterson-speak: I don't care if it's a Nazi camp guard throwing a lifeline to the young men sinking in quicksand, so long as he's pulling the kids to more-solid ground! What comes after is a matter for others to attend to. Maybe we Alt Right need some memes to follow on the rescue -- with lobsters, lots and lots of lobsters! -- that expand where Peterson dares not tread. The kids are reaching dry land -- shouldn't we give them the map to the next step?

Blogger Avalanche May 03, 2018 8:46 AM  

@57 Rudy Giuliani tonight on Hannity Fox:
"My biggest regret was turning down the Attorney General position"

Does EVERYONE forget that he was in the 9/11 mess up to his eyeballs?!? He was not some innocent wandering around in the (asbestos-filled) dust! He intentionally avoided his "disaster management center" when there was no reason whatsoever to do so... (At least no allegedly "known" reason, till "Building 7 was pulled"!)

Play actor, involved hip-deep in the decision to cut up, pack up, and ship out the EVIDENCE from the crime scene of ~3,000 murders to be melted down in China! And he was a prosecutor -- he KNEW damned well about preserving evidence!

Where does this affection and acceptance for a conspirator come from?

Blogger VD May 03, 2018 8:53 AM  

I see the pain in our young men, and any anodyne is welcome.

I disagree. Pain is weakness leaving the body. Pain toughens you and makes you harder and stronger.

I am in pain every single day, not because there is anything wrong with me, but because I push my body on the field and in the gym. And I am stronger and fitter and faster as a result.

Peterson wants to replace Christianity, replace the European nations, and replace Western civilization. His vision is evil and it must be opposed.

Blogger August May 03, 2018 10:51 AM  

The twelve rules weren't around back then, but I figured the best he was going to do was Unitarian. Perhaps with a little added guilt.

Blogger Solaire Of Astora May 03, 2018 11:13 AM  

@43. Jack Ward

Maybe it's not fiction. He already sounds like Kermit the Frog.

Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Just have to wait and see who his two closest associates are in the future.

Blogger Landon McNew May 09, 2018 12:07 PM  

VD wrote:I disagree. Pain is weakness leaving the body. Pain toughens you and makes you harder and stronger.

I believe that pain can exist without the benefit of making you stronger.For example, there exists a certain mental anguish that comes along with a mental disease without any benefit to you and an outcome of severe depression is suicide and that certainly doesn't help you.

VD wrote:Peterson wants to replace Christianity, replace the European nations, and replace Western civilization. His vision is evil and it must be opposed.

That's a pretty vague statement. Not sure how I understand he is "evil".

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