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Sunday, May 06, 2018

The Reluctant Messiah

Matt Welch of Reason notices that something is seriously off about Jordan Peterson:
There are three truly weird moments in 12 Rules for Life that have largely escaped notice, though they should have set off alarm bells among reviewer and author alike. The first comes in the introduction, where Peterson describes a dream he had while writing Maps of Meaning in which he was "suspended in mid-air, clinging to a chandelier, many stories above the ground, directly under the dome of a massive cathedral." Messiah much? He keeps going: "My dream placed me at the centre of Being itself, and there was no escape. It took me months to understand what this meant.…The centre is marked by the cross, as X marks the spot. Existence at that cross is suffering and transformation—and that fact, above all, needs to be voluntarily accepted."

The second is another dream about halfway through the book, in which our hero was again in the air, this time with a view of massive glass pyramids, "all full of people striving to reach each pyramid's very pinnacle." Yet there was a further space above all that, "the privileged position of the eye that could or perhaps chose to soar freely about the fray; that chose not to dominate any specific group or cause but instead to somehow simultaneously transcend all." Jesus.

The final eyebrow-raiser comes in the coda, where Peterson tells a symbolic story about being wowed by a friend's night-lighted pen, asking for it as a gift, writing down on a piece of paper, What shall I do with my newfound pen of light? then waiting for revelatory response. Among the answers about life that tumbled forth: "Aim for Paradise, and concentrate on today" and "honour your wife as a Mother of God." Among the questions, What shall I do with a fallen soul? and How shall I educate my people? The final couplet of this inspirational session: "What shall I do when the great crowd beckons? Stand tall and utter my broken truths."

The only question is whether he's the second coming or merely John the Baptist.
Neither. He's not even a plausible antichrist figure, he's simply a whack job desperately trying to hold his mind together. If Welch thought those three moments in 12 Rules for Life were truly weird, he's going to be seriously freaked out by Peterson's posturing in Maps of Meaning. From the preface, which is entitled DESCENSUS AD INFEROS, which means "The Descent into Hell."
My parents lived in a standard ranch-style house, in a middle-class neighborhood, in a small town in northern Alberta. I was sitting in the darkened basement of this house, in the family room, watching TV, with my cousin Diane, who was in truth—in waking life—the most beautiful woman I had ever seen. A newscaster suddenly interrupted the program. The television picture and sound distorted, and static filled the screen. My cousin stood up and went behind the TV to check the electrical cord. She touched it, and started convulsing and frothing at the mouth, frozen upright by intense current.

A brilliant flash of light from a small window flooded the basement. I rushed upstairs. There was nothing left of the ground floor of the house. It had been completely and cleanly sheared away, leaving only the floor, which now served the basement as a roof. Red and orange flames filled the sky, from horizon to horizon. Nothing was left as far as I could see, except skeletal black ruins sticking up here and there: no houses, no trees, no signs of other human beings or of any life whatsoever. The entire town and everything that surrounded it on the flat prairie had been completely obliterated.

It started to rain mud, heavily. The mud blotted out everything, and left the earth brown, wet, flat and dull, and the sky leaden, even gray. A few distraught and shell-shocked people started to gather together. They were carrying unlabeled and dented cans of food, which contained nothing but mush and vegetables. They stood in the mud looking exhausted and disheveled. Some dogs emerged, out from under the basement stairs, where they had inexplicably taken residence. They were standing upright, on their hind legs. They were thin, like greyhounds, and had pointed noses. They looked like creatures of ritual—like Anubis, from the Egyptian tombs. They were carrying plates in front of them, which contained pieces of seared meat. They wanted to trade the meat for the cans. I took a plate. In the center of it was a circular slab of flesh four inches in diameter and one inch thick, foully cooked, oily, with a marrow bone in the center of it. Where did it come from?

I had a terrible thought. I rushed downstairs to my cousin. The dogs had butchered her, and were offering the meat to the survivors of the disaster.

I dreamed apocalyptic dreams of this intensity two or three times a week for a year or more....
The eye in the pyramid. The spirit writing. And now the cannibalism of the beautiful cousin. How much more evidence do you require? Do you still doubt my take on the man? Do you still doubt my opinion that following this lunatic's philosophical, theological, or psychological lead is not going to lead anyone anywhere good? Maybe you still can't smell the bullshit, but how can you fail to recognize the stink of sulfur?

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118 Comments:

Blogger Teleros May 06, 2018 11:12 AM  

"I dreamed apocalyptic dreams of this intensity two or three times a week for a year or more...."

And having been through experiences such as this, I decided that obviously I would make a brilliant psychiatrist!

Oh boy.

Blogger Brick Hardslab May 06, 2018 11:13 AM  

Am I imagining it, or is there a deep Luciferian influence on his inner life? Those dreams don't flow from any clean wellspring.

Blogger Matt May 06, 2018 11:33 AM  

The dreams stopped once he cleaned his room.

Anonymous Anonymous May 06, 2018 11:35 AM  

Peterson has lectured about the symbolism of the pyramid and the all-seeing-eye, stating that he "really, really likes" the symbolism, because it apparently symbolizes hierarchy that "needs" to exist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taNlA-HCNv8

Sure, hierarchy is part of nature, that's true, but within the context of what we know the pyramid and all-seeing-eye actually represents, this is a disturbing proclamation.

It's also worth noting that the only image of Peterson on his Wikipedia article is a screenshot of him explaining this all-seeing-eye pyramid symbolism, with the pyramid drawn on the chalk board behind him, and his hands gesticulating the sloping structure of the pyramid:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson

Interestingly, I can no longer find the lecture on youtube from which that screenshot was taken.

Blogger bw May 06, 2018 11:37 AM  

I've seen his followers mention on other blogs that this is just 7D chess.
Peterson sacrificed himself on the alter of actually exposing the JQ in the only way he could in .ca
I kid you not.
The Ilk can Shirley and easily connect all those stupid, excuse making dots.

Blogger mostly dead May 06, 2018 11:39 AM  

Someone hasn't read his Jung.

Anyhow, he's a honest seeker. He already transcended the limited understanding of the triangle's meanings as displayed in the video posted above (ie he familiarized himself both with the Pythagorean - directly relevant to Egyptian art and architecture, if you ask some less conventional Egyptologists - number and geometrical symbolism, as well as the medieval number symbolism)

Blogger Wuzzums Fuzzums May 06, 2018 11:45 AM  

He does put a lot of emphasis on dreams in his talks and implies they're some sort of visions from a platonic universe or something. Now I see why he refuses to take on dreams from a scientific perspective. If he does admit dreams are a manifestation of his own psyche then that means he's got a few screws loose.

Why would he even tell the public about those dreams? I thought talking about dreams is what a young woman does in order not to keep quiet. Selling us a bunch of crock how dreams come from a divine place then telling us about some dream in which he is the center of being itself is basically calling horseshit virtue.

Blogger mostly dead May 06, 2018 11:45 AM  

"Peterson sacrificed himself on the altar"

Curious that you would write something like this, unrelated to what you think. If he is playing out the archetype of spiritual teacher, then the fall that displays that he is simply human rather than divine may be necessary part of it (be it intentionally initiated or not). That is, he must sacrifice his image.

One Jungian Kabbalist writes of this thusly:
"Occasionally a man becomes too dependent on his maggid (spiritual teacher), and while it is necessary for the maggid to act as the man’s Tiferet (Self) for a period, it is not permissible for him to assume this role permanently. While in some branches of the Tradition attachment to the maggid is part of the devotional method, it is not really desirable beyond a certain point, because then the maggid stands in the Way between the man and God, and this is contrary to the Commandments against other gods and bowing down to images. People make a false god of whatever they are devoted to, be it money, status or even a man, however exalted he may be.
...
...(this can be achieved) by demonstrating to the aspirant that the maggid also is human. This is sometimes achieved by the maggid performing an outrageous action aimed at destroying the attached aspirant’s image of his teacher."

Blogger Salt May 06, 2018 11:47 AM  

If JP is "striving to reach each pyramid's very pinnacle", then, Jordan... Renew!

Blogger SouthRon May 06, 2018 11:52 AM  

Like many of Satan's tools, this man will suicide when all is said and done. I'm sure that will have no negative impact on his broken followers.

Blogger LibertyPortraits May 06, 2018 11:57 AM  

This reminds me of the madness and intellectual sloth of people who spend too much time on the internet embroiled in bullshit. Ive been reading his 12 rules and I am bored by his style. He sounds more like a fundamentalist explaining ezekiel or revelation than an erudite psychologist.

No wonder so many intellectuals of the past had contempt for professors.

Anonymous Anonymous May 06, 2018 11:58 AM  

Jordan Peterson's theology is in fact the biblical definition of antichrist, which makes him a false prophet.

Peterson preaches that Christ's resurrection was symbolic of personal transformation, not that it actually occurred, nor does he teach that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, only that he was a human being that "manifested logos".

His theology is in fact Masonic in nature, and thus as VD has observed, Luciferian.

I was astonished to learn how blatantly Luciferian his ideology actually is when in VD's latest video about Peterson's '12 Rules' book it was revealed that Peterson essentially eschews a form of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law".

In fact, Peterson's words almost seem like a corruption of scripture, a corruption of Christ's words to "do unto others" in Luke 6:31.

Something else to consider: Peterson argues that strict social hierarchy symbolized by a pyramid is a natural and necessary structure of human society while simultaneously declaring that the same humans inside that pyramid hierarchy should all do as they please without adhering to any external codes of behavioral conduct.

This is a glaring contradiction.

Anonymous Anonymous May 06, 2018 12:02 PM  

Wuzzums Fuzzums wrote:Why would he even tell the public about those dreams?
Well, he's stated quite clearly that he believes he has "prophetic" dreams.

He's clearly putting himself up on a spiritual pedestal and creating a cult.

In fact, he was once asked during a TV interview by the interviewer if he was a prophet, and Peterson's response was the chuckle, give a sheepish smile, then saying nothing.

Blogger tz May 06, 2018 12:03 PM  

Me thinks he is using the wrong mushrooms in his soup.

Either that or I'm starting to think the Psycho Psychiatrist Hannibal Lecter could have been based on Peterson.

The question is where exactly did the flesh on the skeletons in his closet go.

Blogger Rick May 06, 2018 12:04 PM  

Good Lord. What a horrible writer.
I’d have demanded my money back.

Good catch Vox. For catching it so early.
Prediction: this JP thing will solve itself. For, what can’t be sustained, won’t.

Blogger JohnR219 May 06, 2018 12:07 PM  

Peterson was obsessed by The Cold War as much as the Holocaust....that was my first red flag about him...I am about 3 years older than he is and I never worried about nuclear war in the 80s especially...as I told a friend in the late 90s, there was not going to be nuclear war because no one could monetize it....there could be no winner and no one could make money on it...I always thought it was odd that he obsessed so much about it...He has apocalyptic fantasies the same way Gary North does...

This is the same reason Kim in North Korea won't launch...he has no way of doing major damage to the US other than 1 city and it would wipe out North Korea...and the Chinese aren't going to let him launch either...we owe them too much money...

Blogger Shane Farrell May 06, 2018 12:12 PM  

Ha. Love it

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 06, 2018 12:24 PM  

This onion gets more and more rotten as each layer is pulled back.

Blogger mostly dead May 06, 2018 12:27 PM  

Man Vox, but your commentariat sure went right to the old ******. That is what you get for courting the lowest common denominator.

Blogger Caleo May 06, 2018 12:31 PM  

Your fixation on Peterson is telling in and of itself. I'm not interested in buying, or reading, his book, or in the mild cult of personality that has grown around him.
He has had his moment in the sun for a year or so, and that moment shall pass.
I wonder if your obsession with tearing him down will pass as quickly ?

Blogger Miguel May 06, 2018 12:35 PM  

Wow. I initially thought that you went too far saying that Jordie is on meds.

Now I think you didnt go far enough.

The man is a mess. Ben Shapiro will start defending him agaisnt "nazis" soon.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine May 06, 2018 12:41 PM  

"honour your wife as a Mother of God." "Stand tall and utter my broken truths."

I disagree. There can be many antichrists, and that's about as satanic as it gets. Like a flipping possessed cuck-messiah.

(Seconds later after reading the recurring nightmare/fantasy)

The hell? I mean, there's insanity, but this sounds more and more like some kind of possession to me.

Anonymous Anonymous May 06, 2018 12:42 PM  

mostly dead wrote:then the fall that displays that he is simply human rather than divine may be necessary part of it (be it intentionally initiated or not). That is, he must sacrifice his image.
Peterson has had ample opportunity to keep himself grounded and to humble himself before his fan base. Instead, he deflects responsibility for any hypocrisy or inconsistency he is called out on, or simply ignores criticism.

Not only that, but he is intentionally cultivating the grandiose image many have of him by outright stating that he is a prophet.

He does nothing to dissuade his followers when they quite literally proclaim him to be a prophetic savior, or even in some cases the Second Coming itself.

I agree that his fall from grace will be an important opportunity for growth among those who have accepted him as their personal guru, however I think what we will see is that this transition is going to be excruciating for many of his followers as it dawns on them that not only is their guru a fallible human being like them, but also that the fruit they have been cultivating from his tree is rotten to the core.

This will be a distinctly different phenomenon than the severing of the umbilical cord between a true master and his disciple.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 06, 2018 12:43 PM  

Azure,

That makes the cuck alarm go off in my head, too. My wife is not a mother of God. My kids are probably pretty well behaved, but they are still unrepentant sociopaths. That is totally non western civilization, non Christian, etc.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine May 06, 2018 12:44 PM  

I mean, I've more or less had Satan metaphorically whispering in my ear during dark times saying something along the lines of "bow to me and I will give you the world" in much less straightforward terms, but JP seems to have given him a smile and a big sloppy kiss of to seal the deal.

Blogger Rick May 06, 2018 12:49 PM  

There’s no way to prove it, but my-dream-o-meter says he’s making up those dreams.

Blogger tuberman May 06, 2018 12:51 PM  

Contempt for false prophets is a winner.

Blogger Dave May 06, 2018 12:53 PM  

I wonder if your obsession with tearing him down will pass as quickly ?

Your frst time passing thru, then?

Blogger Azure Amaranthine May 06, 2018 12:55 PM  

"One Jungian Kabbalist writes of this thusly:
"Occasionally a man becomes too dependent on his maggid (spiritual teacher), and while it is necessary for the maggid to act as the man’s Tiferet (Self) for a period, it is not permissible for him to assume this role permanently."


Right, so it's okay to be possessed by your demon councilor because it's not "supposed" to be permanent...

Yeah, nope.

For those not aware, Kabbalah is a Jewish-ized version of Babylonian mysticism formalized some time around the turn of the last millennium.

Blogger Dave May 06, 2018 12:57 PM  

There’s no way to prove it, but my-dream-o-meter says he’s making up those dreams.

That's my first inclination, other than the obvious mind-altering substances.

Blogger Lovekraft May 06, 2018 12:58 PM  

Going to post the yt link again to the "Incident in 1966" from 'Beyond the Black Rainbow.'

Demonstrates the risk of staring into the abyss after taking a teaspoon of acid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3djVsLBBZ4

Blogger Azure Amaranthine May 06, 2018 12:59 PM  

Unfortunately, he's probably not making those up. If no substances are involved, he's deeply, seriously disturbed at the very least.

If you're gonna make up dreams, you're generally not going to make up stuff like that, unless you're selling a Marilyn Manson act.

Blogger Mercy May 06, 2018 1:02 PM  

Am I imagining it, or is there a deep Luciferian influence on his inner life? Those dreams don't flow from any clean wellspring.

I had a few dreams like that when young. It did not lead in a good direction. JP had them multiple times a week for a year.

A mind as powerful as his, furiously working to make sense of the world with those dreams as a background, without Christ, isn't going to find a way out...just a way further in.

Blogger Uncle John's Band May 06, 2018 1:03 PM  

@ 2. Brick Hardslab

His Luciferianism is fundamental to his basic ontology. The archetypal Satanic error is the belief that you create your own reality. He seems to believe that, to the extent that he is clear on anything. With this as a starting point, once you become a public figure, the fall into a messianic pose is almost inevitable. How else can the products of his subconscious be offered up as actionable signposts for others?

The insanity gives it a particular flavor, but the solipsism happens to anyone who sets themselves up as their own "God".

Blogger Joseph Maroney May 06, 2018 1:07 PM  

The symbolism is very bold. He's a member of a religion that strives to make themselves "gods", and may have been signals for others to lift him up.

The first paragraph is alchemy of the soul, breaking (or burning) it up to rebuild it as being "more refined." The second and third paragraphs feature pyramids and all-seeing-eye symbolism. Mother of god is from the Babylonian trinity of Semiramis, Tammuz, Nimrod. If he's not crafting an outright fictional story, he's engaged in occult practices such as automatic writing.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine May 06, 2018 1:11 PM  

"If he's not crafting an outright fictional story, he's engaged in occult practices such as automatic writing."

I'm leaning heavily towards the latter. Way too many occult coincidences, and I don't believe in coincidences in the first place, only cohens you haven't spotted yet. Or... something like that.

Blogger VD May 06, 2018 1:12 PM  

I wonder if your obsession with tearing him down will pass as quickly?

Well, we're going on a decade with McRapey now, so the odds are slim.

Blogger Ned May 06, 2018 1:13 PM  

FYI, here's a video about how poor JP is being mislabeled alt-right: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55qNyf61M_U&feature=share

Blogger Joseph Maroney May 06, 2018 1:23 PM  

"I'm leaning heavily towards the latter. Way too many occult coincidences, and I don't believe in coincidences in the first place"

I agree.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener May 06, 2018 1:25 PM  

We're gonna need a bigger dosage.

Blogger Rick May 06, 2018 1:32 PM  

No, he’s making them up. The give-away is they’re as corny as the rest of his writing and too perfectly fitting to his cause.
And no one dreams like that. Glass pyramids? Please..

Blogger lynnjynh9315 May 06, 2018 1:33 PM  

My concern is the genuine interest Peterson has dredged up for Christianity in his biblical lectures. He seems able to convey Transcendence to people trapped in a materialist worldview. My fear is that there is ambiguity between Transcendence and Existential Relativism.

Peterson is inconsequential; people's longing for meaning is not.

Solzhenitsyn put it aptly when summing up the horrors of Communism, "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened." He even mentioned the problem of Materialism arose in the transition from Medieval society to the Renaissance.

Frankly, you might want to do a Voxiversity on Materialism.

Blogger OGRE May 06, 2018 1:45 PM  

I fear JP may indeed be a false prophet, of which there will be many. Hes building a bridge between the world of the materialist which is naturally devoid of meaning and a spiritual world that can offer a sense of fulfillment. Hes laying the groundwork that can be used as a foundation for acceptance of an Anti-Christ; this is not an exaggeration.

If one were to devise a worldview that could deceive the greatest number away from Christ, what form would it take? It wouldn't be one that saps all meaning from our existence for that would be insufficient. We are designed to seek for meaning, it is as innate to our conscious selves as the search for food is to our physical selves. Thus any worldview that doesn't provide a means of achieving spiritual fulfillment will only go so far as a deception. The atheist/materialist worldview was not intended as the replacement for Christ, its just the intellectual foundation that will be used to deny Him. But if a worldview is built upon that foundation that also offers a path to spiritual fulfillment, such that you can have meaning while still denying Christ then you have a competent substitution for Him--a counter church--a basis for acceptance of an antichrist.

And this is precisely what JP is doing; by working within the materialist framework hes aiming to provide a path to spiritual fulfillment and at the same time deny God.

The new era into which we are entering is what might be called the religious phase of human history. But do not misunderstand; by religious we do not mean that men will turn to God, but rather that the indifference to the absolute which characterized the liberal phase of civilization will be succeeded by a passion for an absolute...The conflict of the future is between the absolute who is the God-man and the absolute which is the man God.

He will come disguised as the Great Humanitarian; he will talk peace, prosperity and plenty not as means to lead us to God, but as ends in themselves He will write books on the new idea of God to suit the way people live; induce faith in astrology so as to make not the will but the stars responsible for sins; he will explain Guilt away psychologically as inhibited eroticism, make men shrink in shame if their fellowmen say they are not broadminded and liberal; he will be so broadminded as to identify tolerance with indifference to right and wrong, truth and error; he will spread the lie that men will never be better until they make society better and thus have selfishness to provide fuel for the next revolution; he will foster science but only to have armament makers use one marvel of science to destroy another; he will foster more divorces under the disguise that another partner is “vital”; he will increase love for love and decrease love for person; he will invoke religion to destroy religion; he will even speak of Christ and say that he was the greatest man who ever lived"

"Sign of Our Times" - Ven. Fulton Sheen


Blogger bob kek mando - ( your mom always did like me best ) May 06, 2018 1:50 PM  

okay. that's messed up.

Anonymous Anonymous May 06, 2018 1:50 PM  

Vox, here's something on Peterson that ties in with your interest in the reproducibility crisis:

http://greyenlightenment.com/jordan-petersons-self-authoring-program-does-not-boost-college-gpas-study-analysis/

One of the ways JP monetizes is selling his self-authroing suite ($60 for all 4 modules). He's promoted them before in his videos as being shown in studies to raise college GPAs. I looked at all 3 of the studies the Self-Authoring site links to and they all have JPs name on them.

I'm sure you'll be shocked to here however that the first study he wasn't a part of that attempted to replicate those findings wasn't able to. /s

Blogger Azure Amaranthine May 06, 2018 1:54 PM  

"Glass pyramids? Please.."

You prefer giant wolves and inescapable greased tube slides?

Blogger Solaire Of Astora May 06, 2018 1:56 PM  

Of course the JBP defenders in the comment section at that Reason article are claiming the author is criticizing Peterson out of envy. Is this the only argument these people have? Peterson is up there with Neil deGrasse Tyson for having the worst fan bases.

As for Peterson's possible messiah complex, I noticed he plays coy whenever interviewers ask him for his opinion on why he suddenly got so popular. He'll play a little game of self-depreciation and act like he totally has no idea why people are interested in his message but it all feels like false modesty to me. The kind of false modesty Glenn Beck had before going off the rails.

Blogger OGRE May 06, 2018 2:02 PM  

@47 I see so many similarities between JP and Tyson. They are both populizers of their respective fields, yet having not reached any significant success therein they both felt obligated to offer the world their profound insights on the entirety of human existence.

Blogger Bogey May 06, 2018 2:05 PM  

I dreamed apocalyptic dreams of this intensity two or three times a week for a year or more

Also suffered/suffering from PTSD.

Sounds like he is smorgasbord of psychological issues.

The dreams stopped once he cleaned his room.
..or when he started taking Trazadone or Clonidine.

Blogger bob kek mando - ( your mom always did like me best ) May 06, 2018 2:07 PM  

there are many casual Leftists, who've never read the Manifesto nor anything more serious. them i ignore.

but those who HAVE read the Manifesto, i had already decided that that marked them as truly evil.

and, i had decided that adherence to Freud probably marks them as a bit deviant psychologically. it sounds like i need to modify that heuristic to a "LOT deviant".

Blogger Bogey May 06, 2018 2:08 PM  

@48 Neil deGrasse Tyson at least can perform in his primary focus of science education, and he explains things very clearly. Not a fan, just my observation.

Blogger Ian Stein May 06, 2018 2:12 PM  

Jung was into occult stuff too: seances, staying in haunted houses, etc. He maybe trying to replicate his idol's experiences.

Blogger bob kek mando - ( your mom always did like me best ) May 06, 2018 2:13 PM  

6. mostly dead May 06, 2018 11:39 AM
Someone hasn't read his Jung.



Illuminati symbology being used by Jung doesn't expiate the subtext of evil emanating therefrom, rather, it indicts Jungians.



Blogger Bogey May 06, 2018 2:20 PM  

"Conservative people tend not to be that creative"

--Jordan Peterson

There's another jewel for you all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z3mg6fjmzw
about 3:50 in

Blogger paul b. May 06, 2018 2:28 PM  

I urge some of you to look into writings of Valentin Tomberg, deeply traditional Catholic who managed to present effective hermetic synthesis of Christian tradition with alchemy, Kabbalah and Jungian depth psychology. Namely his magnum opus, "Meditations on the Tarot", which features an afterword from Cardinal Hans Urs von Balthasar. There is nothing nti-Christian in these maters, as much as some anti and counter-tradition occultist tried to sever them, manly alchemy/hermeticism, from Christianity and to put them to anti-Christian uses.
There is, by the way, an older essay by one Maurice Aniane, "Notes on Alchemy, Cosmological Yoga of Medieval Christianity", that is easily found online and that might detoxify the subject of inner alchemy for some of you.

Peterson is one of good guys. Confused, perhaps, and still too steeped in Modernity, but he is on the right track.

Blogger FUBARwest May 06, 2018 2:33 PM  

"Peterson is one of good guys. Confused, perhaps, and still too steeped in Modernity, but he is on the right track."

Define good please.

"Do what thou wilt" is never good.

Anonymous Anonymous May 06, 2018 2:36 PM  

OT... Richard Spencer removed from the web thanks to (((free speech advocates))).

https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/2018/05/04/altright-website-go-daddy-taken-down/581835002/

Yes, Spencer is an “alt-retard fake right” etc.

Still, the new corporate regulators of speech are in the process of figuring out what they can get away with. So far, they've gotten away with everything they've tried..

GoDaddy made an exception in its free speech policy for politics it finds implicitly violent. (((The Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law))) lodged a complaint with GoDaddy...so apparently "civil rights" in the 21st century is going to be lawyers demanding that corporations act in concert to repress the ability people to speak openly.

Once you see Spencer, Anglin, Peterson are silenced, do you don’t think you’re next?

Blogger 9783 Joseph May 06, 2018 2:39 PM  

Tearing him down? More like shining a light on him.

Anonymous Anonymous May 06, 2018 2:50 PM  

FYI: Jordan B. Peterson has recently been publicly disciplined for "negligent practices" by the Ontario Board of Psychologists, following allegations of "professional misconduct".

Specifically "boundary and/or quality of service issues".

https://members.cpo.on.ca/public_register/show/19846

Dr. Jordan Peterson entered into an Acknowledgement and Undertaking with the College with respect to a matter considered by the Inquiries, Complaints and Reports Committee, with the decision released on February 7, 2018.

The Undertaking, to be in effect for a minimum of 90 days, is to address issues of communications with clients, which may constitute boundary and/or quality of service issues. The elements of the Undertaking include:

1. Formulation of a plan to prioritize clinical work with clients above other competing interests, including appropriate client communications;

2. A self-report to the College regarding the development and implementation of this plan.

Type of Allegation: Professional Misconduct

Blogger bob kek mando - ( your mom always did like me best ) May 06, 2018 2:52 PM  

55. paul b. May 06, 2018 2:28 PM
Namely his magnum opus, "Meditations on the Tarot",


Tarot is a tool for soothsaying and fortune telling.

ie - Witchcraft.

which is explicitly anti-Christian.


55. paul b. May 06, 2018 2:28 PM
Confused, perhaps, and still too steeped in Modernity, but he is on the right track.




uh huh. i met a Roman Catholic
...
who professed to me his belief in reincarnation and that he had been visited by "angels", who had told him that reincarnation was true.

the Truth is no more in you or him than it is in Peterson.

Blogger tz May 06, 2018 3:00 PM  

He does nothing to dissuade his followers when they quite literally proclaim him to be a prophetic savior, or even in some cases the Second Coming itself.

Profitec Savor tends to do that.

Or as Hannibal Lecter might put it, Edibility over Credibility.

Blogger Rick May 06, 2018 3:04 PM  

No, the Tarot is not used by Tomberg in the way of divinization. Not at all. Tomberg makes that very clear and that that is wrong if not evil.
Tomberg in his later years became Catholic and rejected his earlier studies. The Meditations (published after his death which was his wish) simply used the tarot as a point of departure for meditation on Christian concepts because it covered all the major archetypes (just as the Bible does) and thus all aspects of human life and the cosmos.
Like probably all things the tarot can be corrupted and misused. It’s not in itself anything of importance. It was a card game that was used for centuries.

Blogger Rick May 06, 2018 3:09 PM  

“Lazarus, come forth!” is also very good, much shorter, and a better beginner’s intro to Tomberg. Which I recommend before MoTT.
Both definitely enriched my understanding of the Bible, the NT especially, but they’re not for everyone.

Blogger bob kek mando - ( your mom always did like me best ) May 06, 2018 3:11 PM  

62. Rick May 06, 2018 3:04 PM
Like probably all things the tarot can be corrupted and misused.


alternatively, things of evil can be adopted and presented as innocuous by deceivers.

it's not an accident that the Illuminati chose to use symbology from Freemasonry.

nor is it an accident that Freemasonry chose to use symbology from Ancient Egypt.

now, which am i to believe takes precedence? a modernish, novel, innocuous interpretation. or one which goes back millennia and has long been used in the worship of dark gods.

Blogger VFM #7634 May 06, 2018 3:12 PM  

The word "creepy" comes to mind.

Blogger Rick May 06, 2018 3:13 PM  

As far as alchemy goes, there are no potions or chemistry type cook bookings meant there (I don’t even recall it mentioned in Tomberg’s writings) and occult simply means hidden or rather blocked, a thing which a symbol does - it either hides or reveals.

Blogger The Service May 06, 2018 3:15 PM  

"Jung was into occult stuff too: seances, staying in haunted houses, etc. He maybe trying to replicate his idol's experiences."

Yes, all this dream stuff, and even the spirit writing with the light-pen, is definitely modeled on the example of Jung.

If this is serious evidence of Peterson's whack-jobbery, then was Jung also a whack-job?

To be clear, I'm not asking if Vox and others on here agree with Jung's worldview. I know that most of you don't.

I'm asking if you believe that Jung's dedication to dream interpretation, and his openness to the paranormal, should be counted as evidence that he was crazy.

Blogger Rick May 06, 2018 3:27 PM  

Bob, I get it. You could make the same argument about guns.
Tomberg’s work can speak for itself. But Tomberg covers may subjects, most especially those such as megalomania (Peterson has it) and possessions etc and warns about them. He spends half his time giving warnings I think. Teaches of all the failings of human nature the church perhaps once did but unfortunately no longer does.
A shame. To use the tarot as he has was a brilliant idea, though unfortunately understood. You’d know if you read it. It’s quite clear in the beginning.

Blogger Rick May 06, 2018 3:29 PM  

*unfortunately “mis”understood

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 06, 2018 3:31 PM  

We don't need tarot or any of that other horseshit secret knowledge. We have the Word of God.

Blogger Rick May 06, 2018 3:34 PM  

I didn’t say you did, moron.

Blogger Solaire Of Astora May 06, 2018 3:44 PM  

@67. The Service

http://philemonfoundation.org/about-philemon/who-is-philemon/

Take a look at this little blurb about Philemon, Jung's spirit guide. Did Jung consider him just a fantasy or a literal spirit? Is that sane or not? It hardly matters from a Christian perspective since the existence of evil spirits is taken for granted. This is a moral matter. Reaching out to 'superior knowledges' not a great example to set.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 06, 2018 3:50 PM  

You're defending the usage of these extraneous things like tarot, saying they aren't that bad, or they can be used for okay purposes. They can't. You said the use of tarot was brilliant by misunderstood. It's just a pack of cards that's been used for centuries.

No one is buying it except for the other Jordanetics fools here.

Blogger VD May 06, 2018 3:50 PM  

I'm asking if you believe that Jung's dedication to dream interpretation, and his openness to the paranormal, should be counted as evidence that he was crazy.

No, it is evidence that he was dabbling in the occult.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 06, 2018 3:51 PM  

You'd have to be crazy to dabble in the occult.

Blogger bob kek mando - ( your mom always did like me best ) May 06, 2018 3:56 PM  

no.

you could be evil as well.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 06, 2018 3:57 PM  

Liberalism is a mental illness, so...

Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira May 06, 2018 3:59 PM  

From reading that dream, he sounds like a raving lunatic. I've had dreams on quinine that were less disturbing.

Blogger Rick May 06, 2018 4:07 PM  

Dude, he’s not “using” the tarot.
Jesus, should I not use a camera because some people think it steals souls?
I don’t believe in superstition. Or that spirits live in paper. It’s artwork.
You’re creepy.
You sound like the people who reject the Bible without ever reading a word of it.
Well done.
I’m no fan of Peterson. I’m warning against what’s wrong with him.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 06, 2018 4:08 PM  

Cool story bro

Blogger Lovekraft May 06, 2018 4:40 PM  

I had ONE dream in which I saw colour - vivid blues of a French riviera scene at early evening.

Most dreams nowadays are just about going to work in my underwear.

Blogger Doktor Jeep May 06, 2018 4:56 PM  

This JP appears to be more mess than messiah. To stop him would be to spare him from doing to his own reputation that which needs to be done. His story about his dreams is a sort of conjuring. No different than the underlying dark motives behind "torture films" and CGI-driven "corruption of flesh" movies. They all suck, but that's not the goal. It's a conjuring of sorts. They don't call it Hollywood for nothing.

Blogger Avalanche May 06, 2018 5:02 PM  

@39 "... I don't believe in coincidences in the first place
I agree."

OMG - did you miss entirely the BRILLIANT word twist Azure wrote in @36?! I managed to not spit my tea AT the monitor, but it was close!

He wrote: "I don't believe in coincidences ... only cohens you haven't spotted yet. Or... something like that."

(applauding!)

Blogger Avalanche May 06, 2018 5:18 PM  

@45 "One of the ways JP monetizes is selling his self-authoring suite"

I was always bothered by, and intended maybe someday to ask about his apparent pleasure at the 'successes' of his program in testing. He described testing it in a BUSINESS school in The Netherlands, where he describes, logically enough, that the success and intelligence ranking started: native Dutch women, then native Dutch men, "non-native"/immigrant women and lastly "non-native"/immigrant men. (Entirely reasonable and expected.)

They did the authoring program (and it may have been only the future part; he has discussed it in several versions, and I didn't bother to follow closely) but after the program, the "non-native"/immigrant MEN were at the top and/or equal to the native Dutch women!

Now, granted, he was not providing any depth of the program / study / results; and it could just be that the (unmentioned) 'metrics' were not ones most folks would consider sufficient. So, his "yay, the immigrant men did so well!" may merely have meant the fewer of them dropped out... But he glossed over that the selected test group was attending a private business school in the The Netherlands ($$?); the impression I got (may not have been intended; may have been) was that he intended that the conclusion the hearer would draw was moslem immigrants(!) were 'suddenly' performing (overall? he was not clear) as well as native Dutch women?!

Nah, couldn't believe it then, don't believe it now.

Blogger Avalanche May 06, 2018 5:20 PM  

@51 Neil deGrasse Tyson at least can perform in his primary focus of science education

Not to judge by the opinions of a number of the "alleged" peers in the field! He's a popularizer because he can't swim with the big boys!

Blogger Avalanche May 06, 2018 5:27 PM  

@60 Tarot is a tool for soothsaying and fortune telling.
ie - Witchcraft.
which is explicitly anti-Christian.


Tarot can also be a tool for self-reflection BY actual Christians.

Try these for more examples of over-simplification:
Communion wafers are a tool for soothsaying and fortune telling by Satanists.
ie - Satanism
Therefore communion crackers are explicitly anti-Christian?

Guns can be used as a tool for committing murder by nutcases.
i.e. sinful violence
Therefore guns are explicitly anti-Christian?

Or do you think the Tarot cards have magical powers that can take over the minds of the user? Like guns do?


(And no, I don't own or use Tarot cards, although I have seen them. I object to the unthinking recoil.)

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 06, 2018 5:35 PM  

Don't care, Avalanche.

Blogger JaimeInTexas May 06, 2018 5:43 PM  

Should reflect on the actions and rules God put in place, in the OT because Israel's habit of getting into idol worship. Might consider why there are no wtitings by any Christian of any weight adivising the use of things like tarot cards as tools for personal edification.

Blogger Rick May 06, 2018 6:14 PM  

They don’t exist because you haven’t heard of them.

Blogger The Rev May 06, 2018 6:29 PM  

In defense of (this one aspect of) Peterson, Jung's wouldn't recognize this sort of dream as anything unusual or specially messianic. It's the sort of symbolism you encounter in almost any person's dreams (which is the whole point of an archetype). As others have noted, the 'waking dreams' Jung records in The Red Book are even more bizarre than Peterson's. IF Peterson is being a consistent Jungian, he won't be presenting this as special outside of the context of his own personal growth.

Jung was 100% dabbling in the occult. He was big on alchemy, Gnosticism, African shamanism, and in general any expression of symbolism from around the globe. For Jung, the point wasn't amassing occult power, but rather understanding how the unconscious/subconscious expresses itself in these things.

This is where wisdom comes into play. Is it okay to learn about pagan traditions? Some Christians would say no, even to reading a book about Greek Mythology. Some Christians would say no, even to a book about Christian myths (lives of the saints, etc). The question is, where is the line? Jung went over it at several points in his life. That doesn't invalidate his insights any more than any other author's moral failings invalidates their work.Eco was an atheist, Aurelius persecuted the Church, etc.

Blogger VD May 06, 2018 6:39 PM  

In defense of (this one aspect of) Peterson, Jung's wouldn't recognize this sort of dream as anything unusual or specially messianic.

Who cares what Jung would make of it? That's actually worse than sitting down and watching the SAW movies every day for several years, because it's coming out of your own head.

It's not like this is the only piece of relevant evidence he provides us, after all... oh, but of course, no one else has bothered actually reading any of this stuff before trying to defend it, as usual.

Blogger Brick Hardslab May 06, 2018 6:52 PM  

If these 'dreams' are true, it's really disturbing. Otherwise it's just him polishing his image as a modern guru. More densely packed bullshit.

Blogger Rick May 06, 2018 6:55 PM  

Here is a good piece on Tomberg:

http://corjesusacratissimum.org/2013/12/meditations-on-the-tarot-and-the-vatican/

Blogger Allen Skeens May 06, 2018 7:39 PM  

Teleros, Id say being nuts is a necessary trait for the job.

Blogger Matthew May 06, 2018 7:43 PM  

Rick, you will not get any traction for your occult apologies here.

Blogger Rick May 06, 2018 8:00 PM  

VD is right. MPAI.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 06, 2018 8:01 PM  

I nominate Rick and Robert Browning as today's above average dumbasses.

Change my mind.

Blogger Uncle John's Band May 06, 2018 8:04 PM  

I'm not sure why you'd want to sperg out on the acceptability of tarot in the first place. Who cares?

Blogger urbino May 06, 2018 8:09 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Joseph Maroney May 06, 2018 10:04 PM  

" and occult simply means hidden or rather blocked, a thing which a symbol does - it either hides or reveals."

Jesus answered him, "I have spoken openly to the world; I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and I spoke nothing in secret. - John 18:12

Occultism is the antithesis of truth. Ironic that they proclaim to have the light but must keep it in shadows.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 06, 2018 10:11 PM  

It must also be secret, too. Give it up, Robert Browning. No one is fooled here.

Blogger The Rev May 06, 2018 10:11 PM  

The point is that this is a way to tell if Peterson is a Jungian or a Jung-flavored charlatan. If he reports this dream content as normal stuff everyone experiences, he's just a Jungian. If he's using it to imply he is some special visionary flower, he's a cult leader.

To be fair, I should read Peterson before commenting on him. But I've read enough Jung to see where Peterson is coming from in the passages cited.

Blogger The Rev May 06, 2018 10:17 PM  

@100

And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." ...All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them...

Blogger Azure Amaranthine May 06, 2018 11:11 PM  

"I had ONE dream in which I saw colour - vivid blues of a French riviera scene at early evening."

On the one hand, that's depressing. Every single one of mine has been full color since I was a young child.

On the other hand, at least you get good scenery. I remember maybe one dream of mine a year, and other than the rare nightmare, they're generally about things that would actually happen to me during the day.

On the subject of the occulted, "For since the creation of the World, God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that all men are without excuse."

-Romans 1:20.

Take your occult and get out, deceivers. You'll find no deceived here.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 07, 2018 12:11 AM  

If someone is using the tarot to synthesize alchemy, Kabbalah and the occult into Christianity, the problem is not tarot.
Kabbalah is pure Satanic evil. Straight, no chaser.
And Rick, if you think it's okay, you're setting yourself up for hell.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 07, 2018 12:14 AM  

If this is serious evidence of Peterson's whack-jobbery, then was Jung also a whack-job?
Yes, Jung was a whack-job. 100% fruitcake with extra nuts. Read up on Orgone sometime.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 07, 2018 12:15 AM  

This is why "he's just a Jungian" does not excuse anything.

Blogger OGRE May 07, 2018 12:50 AM  

@99 urbino

I think he considers himself a literal Ubermensch ala Nietzsche

Blogger tublecane May 07, 2018 1:38 AM  

The part about flying over this or that petty group of mere humans, wishing to transcend all that base stuff and become...something else reminds me of the Nietzschean Overman. But of course the Overman was meant to be of this world, and Peterson has otherworldliness in mind. (Also, Nietzsche at least posed as right-wing, whereas Peterson is a milquetoast liberal progressive.)

Other posters have brought up Jung, and that's appropriate. But the passage about which I'm speaking brought to my mind that other favorite of both existentialists and psychologists: Dostoyevsky.

Peterson is a Dostoyevsky fanatic as much as a Nietzsche fanatic, from what I can tell. Which probably has something to do with Dostoyevsky's characters being basketcases living through vivid dramatic and symbolic scenes, often involving nightmares and fever-dreams.

Not that Dostoyevsky wasn't great novelist, but Peterson holds him up as a great intellect and philosopher, as well. He says, "Dostoyevsky is the absolute model of a true intellectual." Uh, okay. Again, great artist, but I wouldn't go that far.

Peterson also says, "I've never read anyone who takes moral questions so seriously." Probably haven't read much moral philosophy, then. This is evidence of a shallowness of education.

In any case, the reason I bring Dostoyevsky up is that he has a recurring theme in his best-known works, whereby certain characters experience flashes of ways to live beyond known human experience. Except I suppose in the person of Jesus Christ. It's a common existentialist hope, this Beyond Regular People mentality. Which is more likely to result in Leopold and Loeb than Jesus.

One such character is Stavrogin from Demons (or the Possibility). He is a great sinner who most horribly raped an 11 year-old girl who later committed suicide. He returns to his former comrades from an absence for bad behavior a changed man who has had an I guess what you could call a prophetic vision another way to live.

He could be a New Russian Man, if you will. But he lives with massive guilt and doesn't know how to make the leap from what he is to this transcendent vision. So he kills himself.

Peterson may think he's caught a similar transcendent glimpse. (Or he just had PTSD). Can he rise above identity politics and show us the Liberal Overman? Or will he meet the same end as Stavrogin?

Blogger tublecane May 07, 2018 1:41 AM  

@109- I don't know how "the Possessed" autocorrected into "the Possibility."

Blogger manfred arcane May 07, 2018 5:39 AM  

@109
I think that Dosto certainly warrants his status as a great thinker. There is a great of trilogy of podcasts on him by Matt Johnson that goes in-depth into his importance to right wing/Christians. Johnson knows his Dosto way better than Peterson does, and his reading is different both from the Peterson one and from the common shitlib litcrit one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5cET6qlQEM

Blogger manfred arcane May 07, 2018 5:47 AM  

@105
Kabbalah is a tool, and is thus ambiguous. You can put its teachings to good use, or to bad one. Just like it can be of the great help with all sorts of studies and investigations, for example using Worlds, sephiroth and paths as these pigeonholes for functions and relationships when studying various mythologies and metaphysical systems, just like it can turn into a limiting intellectual prison.
Think Derrida's "Plato's Pharmacy" - every cure may be a poison, every tool a limiting crutch.

Blogger VD May 07, 2018 7:39 AM  

The point is that this is a way to tell if Peterson is a Jungian or a Jung-flavored charlatan.

Almost certainly the latter. Read either book. You'll very rapidly conclude the latter, and while I know very little about Jung, I suspect you'll end up telling us that Peterson doesn't understand or apply Jung correctly.

Blogger VD May 07, 2018 7:40 AM  

Kabbalah is a tool, and is thus ambiguous. You can put its teachings to good use, or to bad one.

No, Kabbalah is an evil tool. There is nothing ambiguous about it. It is the weird and twisty path that leads to sodomizing children.

Blogger Unknown May 07, 2018 8:25 AM  

Why is it that Peterson defenders usually start off their defence with "I'm not a fan of him or buy his stuff"? Is it a level of self awareness that within the Peterson fandom there is a massive tribalistic mentality - they understand that their take can only be given credibility if they first make it clear to everyone "I'm not part of that tribe (cult)"

Blogger English Tom May 07, 2018 8:52 AM  

I don't know. I've heard dream-o-meters can be faked like a polygraph can be.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 07, 2018 10:56 AM  

manfred arcane wrote:Kabbalah is a tool, and is thus ambiguous. You can put its teachings to good use, or to bad one. Just like it can be of the great help with all sorts of studies and investigations...
Sorcery is a tool, and is thus ambiguous. You can put its teachings to good use, or to bad one. Just like it can be of the great help with all sorts of studies and investigations...
Human sacrifice is a tool, and is thus ambiguous. You can put its teachings to good use, or to bad one. Just like it can be of the great help with all sorts of studies and investigations...

Blogger tublecane May 07, 2018 4:41 PM  

@111- Dostoyevsky is brilliant and insightful, but like Nietzsche in short bursts.* He doesn't have much sustained thought, which is necessary I think in order to be the "absolute model of a true intellectual."

That's not a knock, as I wouldn't expect a novelist (or novelist/journalist/sometime polemicist) to elaborate on philosophy. One Tolstoy is enough.

*When Nietzsche is able to sustain a line of development over time, he always ends up hitting a brick wall, like in On the Genealogy of Morals. It's usually a silly, childish wall.

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