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Thursday, May 03, 2018

Why I am crucifying the Crazy Christ

Because that is what one should do with false prophets who attempt to pass off madness and lies as truth. Real, objective, Aristotelian correspondent truth.

I find it mildly amusing that Jordan Peterson's dismayed fans don't seem to realize that their responses to my recent Darkstreams on the subject such as the one below don't dissuade me in the slightest, but to the contrary, confirm for me that they are very, very nervous about their hero's ability to successfully defend himself from my critical analysis.

What is basically going on here: "SJWs Always Double Down" isn't selling nearly as well as its predecessor and so you are trying to attract attention, and more potential sales, by attacking one of currently hottest public figures. What happened to you man? You used to be one of good guys but now you are bitter, shallow, barely eloquent and on your way to joining other online right has-beens like Nick Land & co.

What happened to me is that I caught the unmistakable scent of bullshit and sulfur. Contrast the response of the Peterson fan with the response of the Dread Ilk to people like Greg Johnson and Andrew Anglin calling me out. The Dread Ilk knew they had no need to defend me, and they also knew that I would not hesitate to face my critics directly in order to defend my case against the Fake Right. Peterson's fans, to the contrary, appear to be well-aware that he fears to even address the fact of my existence, let alone attempt to answer for his intellectual crimes.

Jordan Peterson set off my BS radar like no one since Paul Krugman and his repeated post-2008 attempts to claim that he never called for a housing bubble, and I quickly noticed the bizarre way in which Peterson's fans were repeatedly offering multiple different and contradictory alibis for his intellectual crimes, but I had no idea that the Crazy Christ was building up an quasi-cult around him to make the now-defunct New Atheist fan club of Richard Dawkins look downright moderate and sane.

Consider, for example, the following comments, all culled from a single video of an appearance on Stefan Molyneux's show.
  • Genius is not a strong enough word to describe the level of insight Jordan Peterson has into the world. Wow, he's impressive on the worst of days but this one just absolutely blew me away.
  • the word you are looking for to describe JBP is a prophet, or someone who can see into the future and correct and sort things out now while there’s still time.
  • One of the two most important voices in the world today.
  • Dr. Peterson is such an impressive man. In ~1 year of watching and listening to his lectures and speeches/debates I learned more about myself, society, mythology and religion than I did in 4 years of college.
  • my hero emerging in a time of darkness.
  • We in the West, are fortunate to have this great mind during this time of great social turmoil, to guide us and to help us understand and survive the coming deluge of this media manufactured communist typhoon.
  • This great man embodies the emergence of the hero in a positively inspiring way.
  • The world's center of gravity is always located with Dr. Peterson.
  • Anyone at any age can improve themselves and find missing meaning. Dr. Peterson has been essentially my advisor through his YouTube videos, online tools and books. What a gift he is to humanity.
  • Another fascinating discussion with one of our age's great minds.
  • If one does not comprehend Jordan Peterson, one does not comprehend the warrior.
  • Jordan Peterson - what a mind!  Impressive - also, I noticed that the question that they were rhetorically asking earlier in the show got answered later in the show.  It was about why Christianity - desert religion - would have found such fertile ground in Europe.  And the answer was all about sacrifice - the whole idea about Jesus being sacrificed for people's sins, meshing with the sacrifice of present consumption for future planning and storage for a tough winter in Europe. 
  • Jordan Peterson is a genius person's smart person.
  • Jordan Peterson is the most interesting person I have ever heard speak.
  • Jordan Peterson, the new almighty.
  • Thank you Mr Peterson for saving my generation.
  • My first time really watching Peterson. He is quite wise and sharp as most consider him, and he seems pretty genuine and well meaning as well. 
  • Jordan Peterson at his brilliant best. This man is a gift to humanity. Unfortunately most of humanity cannot even settle long enough to hear him and understand.
There aren't enough hands on the planet for all the facepalms required. And the fact that the Crazy Christ has now publicly aligned himself with the Littlest Chickenhawk merely serves to further confirm my sense of the man, to the extent one can even call him that.

After all, if we are to utilize what we are informed is the Coherence Theory of Truth to which Peterson supposedly adheres, the truth is that within my specified set of propositions and beliefs is the firmly held belief that a man does not cry in public, much less on camera, over anything less than the death of a) a close friend, b) a family member, or c) his dog. It is both consistent and coherent with that belief to state that since Jordan Peterson cries on camera like a girl on a reality television show who failed to get into either of her two preferred sororities, that property is sufficient to prove the coherent truth of the matter. Which is to say that it is coherently true to observe that the Crazy Christ is neither god nor man.

But to return to a perspective based on the Aristotelian Correspondence Theory of Truth, and therefore, to the real objective world we all actually inhabit, Jordan Peterson is a smart, sensitive man with a broken mind who is little more than a purveyor of psychological snake oil and pernicious philosophy. He is a parody of a prophet, an enemy of Christianity and Western civilization, and there is very little "correspondent truth" in him or in his endless, meandering self-dialogue.

Peterson’s intellectual project is exceedingly immodest, and can be stated in a sentence: He aims at nothing short of a refounding of Western civilization, to provide a rational justification for why the materialists of the digital age should root themselves in the soil of Christian ethics despite having long ago lost the capacity for faith.

That being said, you need not accept my conclusions now. I am merely, as is my custom, calling my shot. I have not even begun to present my case, let alone prove it conclusively. But if you want an idea of what is coming down the pike, you might want to give a listen to a few of my previous vivisections.

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118 Comments:

Blogger Lovekraft May 03, 2018 8:06 AM  

Speaking of Ben Shapiro, he stepped in it again by subtly warning Candace Owens not to appear on the Alex Jones show.

What is the 'ethics' of publicly directing another free thinker who he/she can associate with? If the situation was reversed and Cerno was going on some such talk show that VD objected to, would we be hypocrites if VD aired that publicly and we supported him?

I think a clear discussion between Shapiro and Owens should have taken place before Little Ben made that statement.

Blogger LibertyPortraits May 03, 2018 8:16 AM  

Im interested now in what VD considers legit psychology.

Blogger Peaceful Poster May 03, 2018 8:17 AM  

I am merely, as is my custom, calling my shot.

The Dark Bambino

Blogger Dave May 03, 2018 8:23 AM  

bitter, shallow, barely eloquent

That's it? That's the best they can do? FFS at least look up some adjectives.

Blogger The Kurgan May 03, 2018 8:23 AM  

I for one will will enjoy the vivisection of the Crazy Christ.

Blogger select star May 03, 2018 8:28 AM  

If the boomer generation weren't such selfish/destructive asshats, Peterson would be a nobody.

Blogger Wuzzums Fuzzums May 03, 2018 8:32 AM  

What got me interested in Peterson is his lecture analyzing the Pinocchio Disney animation. It's really good. This is just as entertaining.
On a related note, have you seen Mister Metokur's take on JBP?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iFi4p4QC44

Blogger wreckage May 03, 2018 8:32 AM  

Well, I gotta say, Vox has me at the publicly crying metric. Very much so at the "crying into a camera" thing, which I had really no clue Peterson did with such regularity.

So, while I have enjoyed watching Peterson, he really is a performer, it's going to be really interesting and genuinely educational to see Vox' detailed argument on this; it's only rarely that I can anticipate Vox, and I give myself a delicious rawhide chew-treat anytime I do.

Blogger Ex Caliburn May 03, 2018 8:32 AM  

I'm really looking forward to your take on the book, particularly the chapter on parenting.

Not being a parent and being an autist, I still get a bad feeling when he speaks about his theory of parenting.

I can only imagine what you will see underneath it or extrapolate from it.

This book report is going to be riveting.

Blogger urbino May 03, 2018 8:36 AM  

Peterson may have revealed something about how his own theory came about when he hypothesized that Nazism evolved as a result of Hitler's interaction with his audiences at his speeches. Supposedly he observed what generated a reaction, expanded on that and dropped what didn't. This could be a projection of Peterson's. He is noted for his intense observation of live audience members, and has said several times that he observed how strongly people reacted when he spoke of responsibility.

Maybe his theories developed as he immersed himself in the milieu of crazy psychology students, colleagues, and later his public audiences. He eliminated what fell flat and amplified what got a reaction. After all, he didn't become a famous lecturer and best selling author by accident. This would imply that the craziness of his message is intricately entangled with the madness of his audiences over many years.

Blogger Kang May 03, 2018 8:36 AM  

“There are no facts, only interpretations,” -Nietzsche
JP brings this up often. It makes a important Post Modern point: the search for truth under complex reality requires we adopt certain models and 'grids' for understanding before we encounter these truths. Do you believe in objective truth? Did you models tell you something about it, or about your assumptions?
This may be true: but I believe in objective truth, in God, and some version of an Platonic reality, even the reality of mathematics. Using this Post Modern insight without this understanding is a fatal flaw.

Blogger Don't Call Me Len May 03, 2018 8:39 AM  

Re: those comments.

Were they all watching that vid in their own personal "booths" that they had to keep plugging quarters into? Even if they weren't, I bet the floor still ended up very sticky.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch May 03, 2018 8:39 AM  

Vox, I wish you'd go after Shapiro. ...AFTER tearing apart Peterson.

These people are worshiping idols.

Blogger ReluctantMessiah May 03, 2018 8:43 AM  

Dr. SDL is In, commence the vivisection

Blogger Uncle John's Band May 03, 2018 8:44 AM  

I listened to him once on Stefan's show. He does something very common among smart academics, which is speak in a way that seems extemporaneous, but is actually just variations on a well rehearsed set of linked ideas. Not talking points exactly, because that is too simplistic, but more like a talking framework, that if you can bring the conversation to it, you can rapidly chain facts and associations together. It seems spontaneous because the wording is fresh, but the underlying thinking has all been worked out in advance. Good lecturers do it, and it happens in conference Q & A sessions all the time.

The tell isn't just in the way he spoke in what seemed like lecture excerpts, but in the way he doesn't really engage. It's like a firehose of pre-thought without any further processing in real time. Everything is an expression of the same "rules for faking sanity." If you can't recognize it, it can seem brilliant, but if you can, you realize he isn't an interlocutor as much as a performer.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2018 8:46 AM  

"After all, if we are to utilize what we are informed is the Coherence Theory of Truth to which Peterson supposedly adheres, the truth is that within my specified set of propositions and beliefs is the firmly held belief that a man does not cry in public, much less on camera, over anything less than the death of a) a close friend, b) a family member, or c) his dog."

Yeah but Bane was a crier.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2018 8:49 AM  

Also... if you're a long suffering fan and your team has never won a championship.. misty eyes at the first one is ok as long as there is plausible deniability.

Blogger VD May 03, 2018 8:49 AM  

Yeah but Bane was a crier.

There is an exception to every rule. Considering that The Weeper made The Punisher look like a level-headed man of peace, he can be excused. Besides, he always struck me more as a modern embodiment of a creature from the Black Company books than an actual human being.

Blogger The Service May 03, 2018 8:56 AM  

VD: "I have not even begun to present my case, let alone prove it conclusively."

At least some of the disconnect between your "Crazy Christ" take on Peterson, and his fans' unrestrained enthusiasm for him, is that you are reading his books, and most of his fans only watch his videos.

Even if Peterson's philosophy instantly collapses under critical scrutiny, it's also true that in his video interviews and debates he says many reasonable, insightful, and sane things. (The obvious exception being when his core philosophy is explicitly discussed, as it was with Sam Harris.)

Peterson is not famous and admired because of his philosophically flimsy conception of truth. He is famous and admired because, for his fans, many of his video performances charismatically convey a taboo breaking common sense and clarity of thought.

It is admittedly difficult to reconcile the performative, commonsensical Jordan Peterson of his videos with the epistemologically squishy Jordan Peterson of the Coherence Theory of Truth.

You've said that you will not be watching Peterson's videos, because video is a rhetorical medium. But a complete takedown of Peterson will probably have to include a critical assessment of some of his video performances, and not just because they are the key to his success with the public. Peterson's videos suggest that he has a rather different philosophy in practice than the one he claims to have when he actively philosophizes.

It is this other, implied--and perhaps unconscious--philosophy that Peterson's fans find so valuable.

I bet it would be very hard to find a single Jordan Peterson fan who shares Jordan Peterson's official conception of truth.

Blogger Uncle John's Band May 03, 2018 8:58 AM  

I suspect that his presentation of pre-formed ideas is tied into his notion of self-authoring, in that he is citing his own internal narrative. It's also worth noting that self-authoring is hardly new. "Renaissance Self-Fashioning" by Harvard's Stephen Greenblatt is almost 40 years old, and traces a historical process of rhetorical identity formation. It's also laden with the Postmodern bullshit typical of the "New Historicism." Given that Greenblatt has been a big deal at Harvard for decades, and his most recent, "The Rise and Fall of Adam and Eve" (2017) treats Biblical stories as cultural projections, there may be some of that Peterson originality hiding here too.

Blogger Hari Seldon May 03, 2018 9:01 AM  

Interesting to note that Peter Hitchens has come to a similar conclusion about Peterson. As he commented (in January): "I am familiar with what appears to be a cult surrounding Jordan Peterson, and the more I am pestered about it, the more I ignore it."

More here: https://www.rt.com/uk/417064-jordan-peterson-trans-pc/

From his review of 12 Rules for Life: "Annoyingly, friends of mine recommend his lectures to me, people on Twitter tell me incessantly that I ‘must’ explore his work. They become positively rude if I express reluctance.

How has he done this? Is he a cult? Should I too be a cult? Is it the way to reach minds otherwise closed to conservative thought?...

And despite Dr Peterson’s courage, I cannot love his book. Most of it is written in a conversational style intended to be friendly and accessible. But for anyone educated before the cultural revolution, used to the orderly architecture of argument, it slides about on the page like mental porridge. It was not just my eyes that repeatedly glazed over as I perused it on my homebound train, but my brain and my entire body."

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/jordan-peterson-doesnt-go-nearly-far-enough/

Blogger Daniel Bendele May 03, 2018 9:04 AM  

His chapter on "Speaking your truth" is when my alarm bells started really going off. Anyone who doesn't think Truth is objective gets a hard pass from me. I like listening to his take on Jungian Archetypes because it's a fascinating concept, but he's certainly not my Sensei.

It's clear that my generation and people in general are craving any kind of strong male leadership. Peterson comes across as a nice passionate guy who is calling out some some Cultural Marxists. Most people don't look any deeper than that. They are so starved for a father that they are desperately grabbing for anything that seems like one.

Blogger Disciple of Kek May 03, 2018 9:07 AM  

Some of Peterson's fans have elevated him to a messianic level, but has Peterson himself put himyself on such high of a pedestal?

For me, I could forgive the JQ thing, but not his denial of objective truth. I don't understand how somebody can deny objective truth, yet get so obsessed with proving something that is objective and quantifiable in its nature....

Blogger VD May 03, 2018 9:13 AM  

Some of Peterson's fans have elevated him to a messianic level, but has Peterson himself put himyself on such high of a pedestal?

I repeat: "Peterson’s intellectual project is exceedingly immodest, and can be stated in a sentence: He aims at nothing short of a refounding of Western civilization, to provide a rational justification for why the materialists of the digital age should root themselves in the soil of Christian ethics despite having long ago lost the capacity for faith."

It doesn't matter whether he does or not. His objectives are evil, anti-Christian, and anti-West.

Blogger VD May 03, 2018 9:16 AM  

Even if Peterson's philosophy instantly collapses under critical scrutiny, it's also true that in his video interviews and debates he says many reasonable, insightful, and sane things.

So what. So does Satan. I don't give a flying fuck about the smoothness of the deceitful sales pitch. I am focused on what he is selling.

How do you not understand that?

FFS, stop trying to push his ridiculous videos. It's like telling someone that instead of reading the manual to figure out how to operate your machine, you should watch the TV ads.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2018 9:18 AM  

" Besides, he always struck me more as a modern embodiment of a creature from the Black Company books than an actual human being."

now that's a damn fine description... though I don't think he would've appreciated being called The Thumper

Blogger Joseph Maroney May 03, 2018 9:18 AM  

At least some of those comments are likely to be fake in some way. It smacks of sock-puppetry or some other promotional maleficence, and only serves to strengthen the theory that he has been artificially propped up.

Blogger VD May 03, 2018 9:19 AM  

He is famous and admired because, for his fans, many of his video performances charismatically convey a taboo breaking common sense and clarity of thought.

What MPAI thinks is "common sense and clarity of thought" is totally irrelevant to me. I understand why he is famous and popular. It is the same reason most people throughout history have been famous and popular: he tells people what they want to hear.

I'd be famous and popular too if I ran around telling people that the way to look good and become wealthy is to eat chocolate and sleep 14 hours a day, as long as I could convince them it was true.

Blogger exfarmkid May 03, 2018 9:21 AM  

"Consider, for example, the following comments, all culled from a single video of an appearance on Stefan Molyneux's show."

Funny that. I watched this interview for about 10 minutes and I decided Peterson was the latest cult-of-personality fleecing a batch of suckers.

Blogger TrueBag PipeRock May 03, 2018 9:21 AM  

Agree. When I heard something about "oooo, he hangs with Shapiro, Dave Rubin and Sam Harris" I'm like, yeah, that's same as almost every panel on mainstream media. Count me out. Same old thing for decades now. JP is in the way of the right. He is status quo. What do Shapiro and Peterson fear the very most? Identity.

Blogger Resident Moron™ May 03, 2018 9:22 AM  

@The Service

Another overlap with the last messiah of the left;

Someone else scripts his public appearances
Hope and Change
Pathological liar
Cries into cameras
etc

Blogger dienw May 03, 2018 9:23 AM  

I have concluded that Peterson's rise to celebrity is not an accident but a planned event by some branch of the TPTB: a generation of males and females were molded and primed and Peterson inserted at the right moment as a minder to lead his followers on a path desired by the psychopathic elites. I find the praise being lavished on Peterson to be sickeningly over the top.

@10
"people reacted when he spoke of responsibility"
Every generation seeks guides on how to act and what path to follow; especially those whose parents failed to set them on a right path; unfortunately for most, there is a shaman/guru put in place to mind them: the Beatles with their guru comes to mind; so does Timothy Leary.

Fortunately, there are other guides who rise up such as Francis Schaeffer and his Christian writings. In fact, at the same time Schaeffer was prominent, there was a psychologist who rose to popularity with his logo therapy:

Developed by Viktor Frankl, the theory is founded on the belief that human nature is motivated by the search for a life purpose; logotherapy is the pursuit of that meaning for one’s life. Frankl's theories were heavily influenced by his personal experiences of suffering and loss in Nazi concentration camps.
I read his books in the seventies. I did not find in Frankl such celebrity and mysticism as I see developed by Peterson.












Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 03, 2018 9:23 AM  

Getting lots of sleep is really important.

OpenID Jack May 03, 2018 9:24 AM  

As a Christian, it has been apparent to me from my first exposure to JBP that his philosophy has no solid basis....no core conception of truth/Truth underneath it. The best reasons he can find to reject nihilism seem to be somehow based on evolutionary utility...hardly coherent. What I found particularly interesting were his Biblical lectures, especially the early ones in Genesis like Cain and Abel. It seemed to me then like he was stumbling forward anyway in an attempt to engage in an intellectually honest way with truth, perhaps even Truth. It is troubling, though, he has always used the line that he is studying from a "psychological point of view" to avoid dealing with difficult questions. Insofar has he seems to be looking for truth in Scripture, I have/had appreciated his work. I have been taking a "wait and see" approach to see how he comes to terms with the Truth. To take the Bible seriously, he must engage with the the Bible's claims of its own Truth.

When he was asked point blank about the statement by Paul that if the Resurrection is false, than faith is meaningless, JBP said, "the only answer I can give to that is that I'm really happy I'm not at that point in this lecture series yet. There's a critical issue there and I don't yet know what to make of it. I hope I know a hell of a lot more of what I'm doing by the time I get to that particular question. My entire approach has been to take this purely rationally, and I could say that it's just symbolic and of psychological impact but I'm not satisfied with that, because the world is a very weird place and there's a lot about it that I don't understand." (I take this quote from a text conversation I had about this a few months ago...still trying to find the original interview source). How JBP chooses to finally answer this question is the what I am waiting to hear. He skirts around the issue in one interview (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/jordan-peterson-i-will-explain-my-position-on-the-historical-jesus-in-three), but then around Easter he tweets a link to here, without committing himself to anything: https://stream.org/surprising-scholarly-agreement-facts-support-jesus-resurrection/

I think the real yardstick to evaluating JBP's intellectual honesty will be to see if he chooses to engage and accept Truth on its own terms. The cornerstone of Truth is a great stumbling block indeed.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2018 9:25 AM  

"taboo breaking common sense and clarity of thought."

Mush brained 20 somethings think it is taboo to say that men and woman are biologically different.

We should raise the voting age to 40.

Blogger DJ | AMDG May 03, 2018 9:29 AM  

His videos are attractive to “our” side only in that no video interviewer has challenged him on his ideas of the “ideologue.” If they had, 9 interviews out of 10 we would find that JP believes that all people who believe they have a (cultural) enemy, specifically those of the “far right,” are basically crazy paranoids projecting their insecurities about their own ideas which originated out of shame their personal failures.

He’s lose nearly all fans at that point, but it’s a huge aspect of the last third of 12 Rules.

Blogger S1AL May 03, 2018 9:30 AM  

"We should raise the voting age to 40."

There are sound, biological reasons to argue for 25.

Blogger GiuseppeM May 03, 2018 9:33 AM  

he is interesting, so are you. All is cool

Blogger The Service May 03, 2018 9:34 AM  

"So what. So does Satan. I don't give a flying fuck about the smoothness of the deceitful sales pitch. I am focused on what he is selling."

How do you not understand that?"

I do understand that this is what you think of Peterson.

My point is that his video performances seem to be premised upon a very different philosophy than the one you're attacking in his books. They are not really a sales pitch for that other philosophy. They indicate a different philosophy altogether.

Jordan Peterson is not selling one philosophy; he is unconsciously selling two philosophies. In fact, you could almost argue that he's really only selling one philosophy, but it's not the philosophy that the claims to believe when he philosophizes.

And this second, more reasonable philosophy is not a gateway drug to the first one, because his fans almost never make the transition.

"FFS, stop trying to push his ridiculous videos."

Not to be querulous, but how can you know his videos are ridiculous if you don't watch them?







Blogger Nathan May 03, 2018 9:38 AM  

VD, I hope your review includes your a discussion of being guided by conscience -- as far as I can tell that's what JP means by "don't do what you know to be wrong". It has been hard for me to follow my conscience in multiple areas as a young man, and it would be helpful to get your insights on the matter

OpenID widlast May 03, 2018 9:39 AM  

When I was in college, all of us in the hard sciences had one comment about psych majors "they get into it for the free therapy".
I have never met a shrink or psych student yet who was firing on all cylinders.
They're a few beers short of a twelve-pack.
Their elevator does not stop on all floors.
Not all oars are in the water.

Blogger DJ | AMDG May 03, 2018 9:41 AM  

I respectfully disagree. It is one philosophy. The Theory of Evolutionary Natural Selection of Erhics and Morals. His videos are a subsection of his written word, but only because they are the simplest specter of his “system” for ordering one’s life. They are the easy ideas to consume, because they are presented in the easiest medium to consume.

Blogger L' Aristokrato May 03, 2018 9:44 AM  

No objections to addressing Peterson's psyche, or the relevance of it to the broader picture; But perhaps taking a step back to, in tandem, observing how many of his talkig points are demonstrably factually incorrect(As was the case with the JQ issue), would be of equal, if not greater effect. Particularly when it comes to showcasing the ultimately destructive endpoint to which following JBP's ideas would lead.
From my own experience with his fans, they take what the man says to be beyond questioning in its factual accuracy. That's probably the easiest, and perhaps the most important myth to shatter.

Blogger Daniel Bendele May 03, 2018 9:46 AM  

The Service wrote:My point is that his video performances seem to be premised upon a very different philosophy than the one you're attacking in his books. They are not really a sales pitch for that other philosophy. They indicate a different philosophy altogether.

You're not watching the videos closely enough then. He talks about "speaking your truth" consistently throughout his lectures. He rejects the Truth in the Biblical stories and instead ties their meaning to evolutionary biology. He rejects the Divinity of Christ and instead seeks to create a new religion based on Christian Archetypes without any need for Christianity.

Stop just seeing the parts you WANT to see. I find some of what JP says fascinating, but I'm under no illusion that he's on our side. This isn't hard.

Blogger Randell Gary May 03, 2018 9:49 AM  

Quite the wrong-doer, this Jordan Peterson is. His aura seemed off when I heard his hyped up praise. Turns out it was him being philosophically dishonest.

Blogger bob kek mando - ( your mom always did like me best ) May 03, 2018 9:50 AM  

i do seem to be getting served a lot of Littlest Chickenhawk videos.

and i keep down voting those.

Blogger Othello May 03, 2018 9:57 AM  

I get it. You don't care. Not many live that way. A dying breed.


Respect,

Blogger Brick Hardslab May 03, 2018 10:01 AM  

The littlest chickenhawk has a face made for radio and a voice made for sign language. Watching Peterson and Shapiro was painful.

Although watching Peterson and the BBC interviewer was funny. I did not notice at the time that Peterson gave his female clients the same advise as men, I'm glad vox pointed that out.

OpenID k-h-z May 03, 2018 10:03 AM  

A Terence Mckenna that feasted on psychology rather than psilocybin. His evolutionary-psychology and shamanic approach to mythology is similar at times.

Blogger Mike Hertz May 03, 2018 10:06 AM  

Will Alt-Hero #1 be "coming down the pike" soon?

Blogger RB May 03, 2018 10:09 AM  

In the previous JP thread, I was interested in the comments about him almost certainly being a Gamma. There seemed to be quite a bit of speculation about the definition of Gamma. I stumbled upon an old Lewis Black stand up show from 2006 last night. Within five minutes I realized that he could be the Gamma poster boy. Though he can be funny, within a half an hour, my beautiful girlfriend asked me to put something else on - she could not stomach him any longer. In my opinion, if you need a visual and verbal example of a Gamma personality - take a look.

OpenID eliora613 May 03, 2018 10:20 AM  

I think the title of this post is really telling. At the same time Vox Day elevates Jordan Peterson above his real life position, and he professes his intention to destroy him.

I think the popularity of Jordan Peterson is good for the young generation, as he shows some old style reverence for traditional wisdom, and he might encourage them to read some good, old books.

However, Vox Day overestimates JP's importance, probably because JP attracts similar target audience, and Vox Day can only dream about this level of popularity.

Do you remember, btw, what crucifixion did to Christ?

Blogger Nick May 03, 2018 10:32 AM  

I never understood the fascination with Peterson. He rambles so much that anyone interested in actually learning anything would most certainly become bored by his presentations. He's no idiot but he's got an extensive vocabulary and just keeps churning out words to the general populace, which is then confused as a deep intellect.

Blogger Damn Crackers May 03, 2018 10:33 AM  

"He is a parody of a prophet, an enemy of Christianity and Western civilization, and there is very little "correspondent truth" in him or in his endless, meandering self-dialogue."

Wait until you get to the chapter on Truth in the "12 Rules." It's like he's forgotten about everything he said prior to his writing of the book.

From what I recall, didn't Nietzsche allow that objective facts DID at least exist for "bridge-builders" and the like?

Blogger Daniel Bendele May 03, 2018 10:34 AM  

eliora613 wrote:However, Vox Day overestimates JP's importance, probably because JP attracts similar target audience, and Vox Day can only dream about this level of popularity.



You're projecting. Go away.

Blogger Quilp May 03, 2018 10:34 AM  

A whole new generation of cucks are being groomed (and I mean that in the British sense) to be up for lots of losing in politics, but winning the internal struggle, because thats what's important to man's evolution & society.

Of course I understand the internal struggle is what makes man what he is in the external world, and that is why Courage, one of the Cardinal Virtues, is so very important. Young men of the West need the inspiration to grow internally so that they may find the courage to stand up for their civilization, not to find the beauty in petting stray cats.

Blogger Lovekraft May 03, 2018 10:36 AM  

The 'Process of Becoming Red-Pilled' takes numerous stages, first being subconsciously turned off by mass media (whether it's tv shows or newcasts). One then self-educates (which involves a critique of accumulated education against real-world observation). This stage can take years, assembling a broad groundwork for viewing the world.

Then the political arena is critiqued more deeply - feminism, minority/LGBT platforms/actions. Moves up to one's group and how it is represented and their interests impacted.

The next stage is where many of us are at now. How to proceed in the face of antifa, Soros darkmoney, media/academia/court opposition and the ever-present threat GloboJihadInc.

If the case is that other groups have already arrived at this stage and are much more entrenched, experienced and willing to defend against their toppling, we have two choices:

1 patiently whittle away at them,
2 give up and live the life of domestic bliss

(joining them isn't an option - that's suicide).

Blogger GM May 03, 2018 10:36 AM  

I'm not going to run the risk of saying that this is what happened to Peterson, because Vox has pointed out the way in which Peterson's intellectual vices make it is possible to project onto Peterson one's own point of view.

But I started off, philosophically, with logical positivist intuitions: correspondence theory of truth, rigorous focus on the truth of atomic propositions, the desire for tight and clear logical structure in my worldview.

And when I came to understand the problem of the incompleteness of any logical system of propositions, as well as the difficulty in specifying the content of axiomatic observations, I (along with the rest of analytic philosophy) got worried and went looking for some other way for reality to constrain my thinking.

Following the history, the first place I looked was the Quinean approach to meaning, language, and truth. In order to avoid degenerating into some sort perspectivalism, though, you need to posit that somehow the intellect grasps the degree to which a body of propositions corresponds to reality in a way that is different from coming to see how individual propositions are false. It's tempting, and I think it has an element of truth to it (witness Vox's intuitive grasp of Peterson's flaws) but the way that intuition functions can't be articulated rigorously. And basing truth on an the intuition of a single superior human being struck me, even in the depths of my error, as a bad idea.

I could see how a philosopher might then try to posit that somehow the practical sphere plays a role in bringing the body of propositions into contact with reality in a way that constrains them.

So when you act upon a worldview, and your life sucks, then your worldview is false.

This is plausible because it contains an element of truth. If you act contrary to reality you get bad results.

Philosophically, though, while your life sucking shows that your worldview is broken, you still need to go and figure out what specific false beliefs were driving your bad action and correct them.

And when you go and examine those beliefs, you're going to isolate propositions and use the correspondence theory.

So you're not making any progress.

Now I think divine revelation does the work of constraining the human intellect. If you just accept the need for faith in axiomatic truths, you bypass this whole crazy detour.

Blogger Were-Puppy May 03, 2018 10:37 AM  

@21 Hari Seldon

It was not just my eyes that repeatedly glazed over as I perused it on my homebound train, but my brain and my entire body."
---

That is one hell of a book review :P

Blogger Were-Puppy May 03, 2018 10:38 AM  

I'm sorry Nate, but i'm crying in laughter at that body glazing over book review

Blogger OGRE May 03, 2018 10:42 AM  

@11 Kang

That seems to be the basis of Peterson's belief system. Almost everything JP says is from either Neitzsche or Jung.

Peterson isn't so much ascribing to a coherence theory of truth, its more a pragmatic form of Nietzsche's Perspectivism. Coherence theory means a proposition is true iff it is in coherence with a given system or set of propositions. Truth is a property applied to the whole set and to any given proposition only in accord with its relation to the set. i.e. 2+2=4 is a true propsoition because it coheres to the system of mathematics. The system of Mathematics is true based on its comprehensive and because it coheres to itself and to other coherent sysetms. Coherence theory may or may not be used to justify an objective reality, or it can be used to judge subsets of propositions within a wider set of propositions which are based on a correspondence theory or some other theory of truth. Its pretty well settled that its incapable on its own of judging a universal set of propositions...for obvious reasons. Attempting to do so would be madness.

Peterson's view is more in line with Nietzsche's Perspectivism. As you quote JP quoting Nietzsche: “There are no facts, only interpretations.” And as JP likes to say “there are an infinite number of ways of interpreting the world.” Perspectivism would hold that there are no objective metaphysical truths, or if there are they are completely unknowable so it doesn't matter anyways. This is a bit rooted in subjective idealism and phenomology and existenitalism...something something about consciousness/mind being fundamental, that reality is only the perceptions of human consciouness and not in any way independently existening. And then you add on the Will to Power and the human Will being the central force in the universe, yada yada yada. (We are talking about a literal madman here...) So with that basis every Will is subjected to its perspectives, its own way of interpreting its perceptions. Thus no truth is absolute and objective, for any such truth would need to be capable of transcending all limits on perception.

For Nietzsche, the term “truth” was a metaphor for how useful a tool a belief was to the Will. “The falseness of a judgment is to us not necessarily an objection to a judgment... The question is to what extent it is life-advancing, life-preserving, species-preserving, perhaps even species-breeding” JP basically apes this with his pragmatic description of truth.

This is all different from (epistemological) relativism, which would hold that things are true in relation to the system in which its judged; thats coherence theory applied to a defined system but without being universal. Perspectivism would hold that none of it is “true” as theres no such thing, its just a judgment of how useful it is to my Will. Some perspectives are more valuable than others, based on their utility.

I don't have an actual basis for this, but I think JP is reaching towards a type of Transcendtal Perspectivism. That by two minds sharing a perception of truth then that truth transcends each individual into something larger. And through an increased diversity of perceptions we decrease the limits of individual perception. Thus the benefits from a pragmatic view of globalism and cultural diversity.

Looking at the things JP says from above, it all seems to be coming together into this new mode of thinking...this marriage of old ideas with new perspectives. Theres so much going on here its almost overhwelming trying to categorize it all, not just with him but with the cultural shiftings in general.

Blogger Dire Badger May 03, 2018 10:43 AM  

eliora613 wrote:
Do you remember, btw, what crucifixion did to Christ?



It killed him. What made Christ special was being the son of god, not getting nailed to a tree.

So, what say we nail JP to a tree until he's dead, and if he comes back 3 days later we will know he is the real deal?

Blogger Eze Garcés May 03, 2018 10:48 AM  

To all JP fans:stop putting the man con a pedestal.Yeah,I know that he might be right about some things he said about feminists,trannies,marxists and some psychology stuff,but you know that quote that says "Even a broke clock it's right twice a day"? Or the Bible verse " Prove all things.Hold Fast that wich is good" 1 Tessalonians 5:21 ? Well,it's the same with the man.Keep whatever of value he said and move on,he's just a fallible man like anyone else and seems to have some dubious intentions.Don't put your hands in the fire For him,move on before it's too late

Blogger Edward Isaacs May 03, 2018 11:04 AM  

Oh, I can't wait.

...But I will.

For me personally, the most valuable service you provide is calling bs. I am gullible and always believe the best of everybody and everything I hear. If I hear something new and strange my first, second, and third instinct is to find a way or a sense or a frame of mind in which I can see how it could be true or true-ish or seem true.

OpenID eliora613 May 03, 2018 11:08 AM  

Daniel Bendele wrote:eliora613 wrote:However, Vox Day overestimates JP's importance, probably because JP attracts similar target audience, and Vox Day can only dream about this level of popularity.



You're projecting. Go away.


Are you sure you know what projecting means?

I know it's hard to believe but the level of popularity that JP achieved is not desirable for all people. As we can see it attracts lots of negative attention. It also freezes you in your artificial public persona. It detracts from your personal freedom.

Personally, I believe that JP has a tinge of narcissism in his personality since being a rational man, he could expect the consequences.

However, his narcissism is rather palatable and well-controlled. He definitely guards well this appalling attitude of self-appointed aristocracy of spirit that is so visible in others.

Blogger OGRE May 03, 2018 11:18 AM  

@65 eliora613

Definitely some serious narcissism there. That reminds me of this that I read the other day about JP:

Peterson is quite open in insisting that he has achieved revelations beyond the comprehension of ordinary persons. The book’s epigraph is comically grandiose (“I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world” — Matthew 13:35) and Peterson even includes in the book a letter to his father in which he tries to convey the gravity of his discovery:

I don’t know, Dad, but I think I have discovered something that no one else has any idea about, and I’m not sure I can do it justice. Its scope is so broad that I can see only parts of it clearly at one time, and it is exceedingly difficult to set down comprehensibly in writing…. Anyways, I’m glad you and Mom are doing well. Thank you for doing my income tax returns.


from an article here: https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/03/the-intellectual-we-deserve

Blogger cmbaileytstc May 03, 2018 11:19 AM  

I’m no philosopher, but I knew he was bad when he turned his rhetorical firepower against White men organizing to defend their interests. Play as a team or lose.

Blogger VD May 03, 2018 11:21 AM  

My point is that his video performances seem to be premised upon a very different philosophy than the one you're attacking in his books. They are not really a sales pitch for that other philosophy. They indicate a different philosophy altogether.

This is the most ridiculous defense of Peterson yet. I direct your attention to the word "seem". There is no second philosophy. The con man tells the mark whatever he needs to say to get him to buy the con.

However, Vox Day overestimates JP's importance, probably because JP attracts similar target audience, and Vox Day can only dream about this level of popularity.

First, this is the guy who is being praised as the most important intellectual in the world right now. Second, I do not dream about, nor desire, his level of popularity. I'm already more popular than I would like to be. I have rejected or ignored more speaking invitations and media requests than you would probably believe.

But I am accepting one next week, mostly due to you Peterson fans.

Do you remember, btw, what crucifixion did to Christ?

Yes. But Jordan Peterson is not the Son of Man. Do you remember what it did to Spartacus and his army.

Blogger RobertT May 03, 2018 11:28 AM  

Instant news has had an effect few people recognize. I believe this is why people are so resistant to your take-down of Peterson. The problem is, for the first time in history (as far as i know), people pay more attention to the narrative than substance. People used to debate substance. i.e., the Lincoln Douglas debates. Even presidential debates don't last that long today. Imo, this is the inevitable result of the instant news cycle. How many of us check Breitbart every 15 minutes and get irritated if the headline hasn't changed? 200 years years ago people didn't do that. They got their news updates every couple of weeks or months. That has already put more power in the hands of the Soros' & Zuckerbergs & consultants of the world who make it a point to drive the narrative. That's what was so brilliant about Trump. He actually drove his own narrative, instead of working off the established narrative as all his Republican opponents did. That's what blew everybody's mind and that's whey they want to destroy him. The Trump fight is essentially a fight for our lives. This gives us a fighting chance before we're all medicated into numbness. Science fiction? Maybe. But I don't think so.

Blogger Hari Seldon May 03, 2018 11:30 AM  

Were-Puppy wrote:@21 Hari Seldon

It was not just my eyes that repeatedly glazed over as I perused it on my homebound train, but my brain and my entire body."

---

That is one hell of a book review :P


Hitchens can be wonderfully brutal at times...

Blogger VD May 03, 2018 11:31 AM  

That is a pretty solid bitchslapping of Peterson at Current Affairs. Peterson clearly has no idea that bamboozling a few 105-IQ journalists is not going to help him in the slightest when the bigger intellectual guns are trained on him.

His meltdown promises to be epic and his philosophy of meaning is about as deep, intellectually coherent, and substantive as Hillary Clinton's politics of meaning.

I think I have discovered something that no one else has any idea about, and I’m not sure I can do it justice. Its scope is so broad that I can see only parts of it clearly at one time, and it is exceedingly difficult to set down comprehensibly in writing

To quote an old college girlfriend, "That feeling you have about great thoughts floating around inside your head is just a feeling. It doesn't exist until you actually articulate it in writing."

OpenID dreadilkzee May 03, 2018 11:33 AM  

LibertyPortraits wrote:Im interested now in what VD considers legit psychology.

Ditto, What does VD consider Legit psychology. JP is not a philosopher and everything he talks about is in the psychological since. Sure I find it a bunch of BS mombo jumbo but I feel the same way about chit-chat but women and some men love it. I have no use for it but I don't go around castigating people because have to go through a huge mind story to develop into solid people.

As we say MPAI and JP is just capitalizing (like most psychologies) on the need for many people to have complicated stories to figure out why they do what they do.

I honestly think the only reason you have turned to JP is because of Benny. If so, okay. I don't see it as important as you do and that is ok. You are a big boy and honestly JP is to and more than capable of defending himself.

However, I don't get why you are dealing with the bull shit JP's fans throw. It's irrelevant unless you are just mind dumping as you read the book, in which case it might be entertaining to you but frankly looks like BS that I generally don't see you doing to other targets. I don't recall you punching Benny or John through their fans so I don't get why you are punching JP's?

He maybe a loon but you have been far more gracious to people who have talk down to you than to JP and as far as I know he has said nothing about you. Again his fans are no reason to attach him. If he attacked you then you know the Ilk have your back and we know you are capable of punching back but if that hasn't happened then Why the hostility?

Please someone point me to where JP has attacked VD?

Blogger Teleros May 03, 2018 11:34 AM  


@34

"It is troubling, though, he has always used the line that he is studying from a "psychological point of view" to avoid dealing with difficult questions."

It makes it more atheist-friendly and such though, and disregarding everything else about JBP, he's a Canadian boomer psych professor - expecting him to say point blank "yes Jesus is the Son of God" might be a bit much. Like you, I have enjoyed his secular/psychological take on Genesis - it's a new perspective, and need not necessarily be in conflict with Christian teaching either. Course when it is I've always known which side to err on ;) .

= = = = =

The Service wrote:My point is that his video performances seem to be premised upon a very different philosophy than the one you're attacking in his books. They are not really a sales pitch for that other philosophy. They indicate a different philosophy altogether.

You say his fans "almost never" make the transition... but how many do so, and what do JBP's insane beliefs do to them then? Mea culpa here, because I'd listened to the Sam Harris interview before all this, but dismissed it as, basically, "well his philosophy is nonsensical, but not all the stuff he's famous for is bad" ... all well and good *for me*, but I didn't bother to think through what this implies *for other people* - like the kind who really lap up his self-help stuff. I'm not sure I like the look of that as a cost/benefit issue, never mind as an issue of truth or falsehood.

= = = = =

OGRE wrote:@11And as JP likes to say “there are an infinite number of ways of interpreting the world.”

It was actually along the lines of:

1. The post-modernists say that there's an infinite number of interpretations of a book (or whatever).
2. This is true.
3. However, only a very small (finite?) subset of these interpretations are useful.
4. The po-mo types don't get #3.

And here I am defending JBP again :P .

= = = = =

= = = = =


@VD

Off-topic, but Richard "Dancing Monkey" Spencer's inner anti-Christian, socialist-imperialist is showing through:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf_-fiOjg0w

Some choice timestamps to go to:
-11:40 - "I'm not inherently opposed to socialism... might disagree with socialism on occasion but..."
-29:00 - "My vision of an ethno-state is not... like Poland is... it is a grander concept, it is an imperial concept... I'm so not an ethno-nationalist... we [white men] are a ruling, imperial people... going to have to take care of a lot of non-white people into eternity"
-29:55 - "The idea that we can live and let live - I'm a nationalist for all nations [mockingly]... I am not a nationalist for all nations..."
-50:00 - "I do think that Christianity needs to be radically transformed... I think there needs to be a pantheon that honours our pagan deities and so on..."

Blogger VD May 03, 2018 11:40 AM  

Ditto, What does VD consider Legit psychology. JP is not a philosopher and everything he talks about is in the psychological since.

You simply don't know what you are talking about. Are his objectives even remotely psychological? The only think psychological about his claim "I think I have discovered something that no one else has any idea about" is the fact that it illustrates his mental illness.

Look, the Mondo 2000 crowd used to think Terence McKenna was a great philosopher speaking in metaphors too. Then they figured out that he was just crazy.

Blogger VD May 03, 2018 11:41 AM  

Please someone point me to where JP has attacked VD?

He hasn't. I assume he will go very far out of his way to avoid ever even mentioning me. It doesn't matter, because the smart people are figuring him out fast.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 03, 2018 11:47 AM  

dreadilkzee wrote:Please someone point me to where JP has attacked VD?
He hasn't
It's his idiot followers.
The original post was just Vox saying "In this particular public statement, JP is seriously wrong, and, being a man of science and trained in statistics, he knows he's wrong, and therefore he is lying"
At which point the midwit JP defense brigade came out and attacked Vox nonstop for days.
And you've been around here long enough to know how Vox will react to that.
It could have been one posting in a semi-obscure blog. Now it's war to the knife.

OpenID franklinfreek May 03, 2018 11:58 AM  

Shakespeare knew of the type: "idol of idiot-worshippers"

Troilus and Cressida, Act V, Scene I.

Which happens to have a lot of nice insults...

OpenID Jack May 03, 2018 12:01 PM  

@76 " being a man of science and trained in statistics, he knows he's wrong..."

Perhaps you underestimate the pervasiveness of statistical incompetency, especially among the soft sciences.

But then, that would imply that his best defense against the charge of intellectual dishonesty is that it was due to lack of intellect/skill/rigor....

Blogger David Power May 03, 2018 12:08 PM  


You can tell that Jordan Peterson is an evil scumbag by the way he's always encouraging his students to read that pack of bourgeois lies 'The Gulag Archipelago'.

30 million Christians murdered by the ((Bulshaviks)))! Yeah right.

Keep reading the comics boys. Comics are were it's at.

Blogger YclepedBobAli May 03, 2018 12:08 PM  

I was originally in the 'I don't want internecine warfare' brigade. But Peterson will have us all slaves to his idiot existential relativism, Gamma monologue and rob us of the collective nationalist identity we need to survive. Bury him.

Blogger pyrrhus May 03, 2018 12:18 PM  

Jordan Peterson as "warrior"....right! A warrior who surrenders before the (((enemy))) even shows up.

Blogger David Power May 03, 2018 12:21 PM  


Jordan Peterson:"The current unprecedented fall in world poverty is being achieved almost entirely at the expense of the indigenous working class of the west."

The man's an idiot!

Blogger VD May 03, 2018 12:31 PM  

The man's an idiot!

He's not an idiot. He's very intelligent. But he's mentally ill, he's anti-Christian, and he's anti-West.

Blogger Cloom Glue May 03, 2018 12:36 PM  

@72 Peterson says, "I've decided at multiple points in my life, I am not playing at the political level. I am playing at the philosophical level, or maybe I'm playing at the theological level and what I am trying to do is say what I think as clearly as I possibly can and to

listen to the feedback and

modify my message when that seems to be necessary and apart from that I am willing to let the chips fall where they will".

https://youtu.be/qdPEea0ddeE?t=9m46s

PS: He mentions Ontario is led by SJWs. That is the election in June.

Blogger VD May 03, 2018 12:45 PM  

Shut up, Jed Mask. Christ is not the name of our Lord and Savior. It's a title, which is why various people have aspired to it.

His name is not Anti-Christ or Judeo Christ or Crazy Christ. You're not the Christian Police, so stop trying to speech-police.

Blogger VD May 03, 2018 12:47 PM  

"I am playing at the philosophical level, or maybe I'm playing at the theological level and what I am trying to do is say what I think as clearly as I possibly can and to listen to the feedback and modify my message when that seems to be necessary and apart from that I am willing to let the chips fall where they will".

So much for his "oh, I'm just looking at this from the psychological perspective as a psychologist" defense that his fans have repeatedly made.

I told you he's dishonest. Believe me yet?

OpenID dreadilkzee May 03, 2018 12:51 PM  

VD wrote:Ditto, What does VD consider Legit psychology. JP is not a philosopher and everything he talks about is in the psychological since.

You simply don't know what you are talking about. Are his objectives even remotely psychological? The only think psychological about his claim "I think I have discovered something that no one else has any idea about" is the fact that it illustrates his mental illness.

Look, the Mondo 2000 crowd used to think Terence McKenna was a great philosopher speaking in metaphors too. Then they figured out that he was just crazy.


JP frames all his ideas from a psychological perspective even when he is talking about other things. This is partly why a lot of his stuff is psychobabble. His whole discussion with Harris was couched in psychobabble. He speaks in terms he knows and he's not versed in Philosophy to the extent you are but he's capitalized on the exposure. It is no different than a Biologist telling you why a rocket blows up.

Question still stands: What do you consider legit psychology because JP sounds like most academic psychologists? As crazy as you think he is, there is an entire class of academics that sound the same way.

Blogger David Power May 03, 2018 12:51 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger David Power May 03, 2018 12:53 PM  

he's mentally ill

Do you possess any actual academic qualifications to back up that diagnosis?

Blogger Lovekraft May 03, 2018 12:56 PM  

@66 Ogre: check out youtube video "Beyond the Black Rainbow Incident in 1966".

No one's brought up Peterson's embracing of Native American culture (you can see various pieces of them in the background of his videos at home, and he mentions it numerous times). Not sure how much he incorporates Indian sacred totems, sweat lodges and vision quests into his philosophy.

This ties into the reason white gays and open-border cucks are so despised among the alt-right. We don't want them representing us. I may be going out on a limb here, but Peterson's adoption of the native american culture without putting their warrior spirit front and center may touch a nerve with those having that heritage.

OpenID dreadilkzee May 03, 2018 12:59 PM  

David Power wrote:he's mentally ill

Do you possess any actual academic qualifications to back up that diagnosis?


None, other than most psychologist telling everyone they are mentally ill and they just need $400 an hour to help you find your illness.

And given that all psychologies have to also see a psychologist.... well math should be pretty easy on that one.

Blogger Edward Isaacs May 03, 2018 1:00 PM  

JP is an existentialist. Philosophy IS psychology to him.

Blogger Dire Badger May 03, 2018 1:27 PM  

David Power wrote:he's mentally ill

Do you possess any actual academic qualifications to back up that diagnosis?


Do you possess any real experience to back up the opposite?

The man claims 'truth' is exclusively based upon your point of view. One does not have to be a psychologist to recognize insanity when you see it. When someone claims to be Napoleon Bonaparte, you simply shake your head and recognize his delusion...

Especially since 'academic qualifications' for psychology are considerably less valuable than, say, a doctorate in Astrology and Phrenology.

Blogger Peter Gent May 03, 2018 1:27 PM  

One thing that helps Peterson, that I do not think has been mentioned is that he is tall, but not domineering, strong in his presentation but not overwhelmingly so and when he disagrees, it is not knife hard and wrenching but often disarming. He is a master showman/actor/rhetorician.

Blogger Meimou May 03, 2018 1:33 PM  

Some choice timestamps to go to:
-11:40 - "I'm not inherently opposed to socialism... might disagree with socialism on occasion but..."
-29:00 - "My vision of an ethno-state is not... like Poland is... it is a grander concept, it is an imperial concept... I'm so not an ethno-nationalist... we [white men] are a ruling, imperial people... going to have to take care of a lot of non-white people into eternity"


If Spencer wasn't controlled op, what would he do differently? He knows the MSM made him the face of the alt right and he's saying this. Either way this clown needs to be ignored.

Blogger Kang May 03, 2018 1:40 PM  

@61 thanks OGRE, I feel like a preschooler after your comments. When we speak of correspondence vs coherence: a theory has to be coherent, consistent and comprehensive. That comprehensive would mean a one-to-one isomorphic mapping with reality. e.g. VD's view of identity and native ethnic groups, while initially outside my grasp, seems to correspond more and more. But one does not have to see it, and without seeing it , is their view comprehensive?
Said another way: Hegel's Weltgeist , seeing God in world history, is a materialism that may not be comprehensive: It is a big world. That's where I see JP getting things wrong.

I keep thinking of Whiteheads process theology as a way of having a real Platonic Logos, objective facts, a God intimately experiencing the world, a teleology without an eschatology.

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants May 03, 2018 1:52 PM  

I think you mean "commanded," not "subtly warned."
"No!"<--- Isn't a warning, nor is it at all subtle.

If JP is a brilliant prophet, then I'm a 20 yr old, 5'10 fashion model. He's basically a low energy Zig Ziglar who's read Carl Jung & Dostoevsky.

Blogger VD May 03, 2018 1:53 PM  

Do you possess any actual academic qualifications to back up that diagnosis?

It's not my diagnosis. The man has been on psychotropic drugs for years. Mentally healthy people are not subscribed such drugs.

Blogger VD May 03, 2018 1:54 PM  

What do you consider legit psychology because JP sounds like most academic psychologists?

Nothing.

Blogger vanderleun May 03, 2018 3:16 PM  

"Nor kind nor coinage buys
Aught above its rate.
Fear, Craft, and Avarice
Cannot rear a State. "

The envy that drips off these rants is beginning to be embarrassing.

Blogger Joe Katzman May 03, 2018 3:22 PM  

"Dr. Peterson is such an impressive man. In ~1 year of watching and listening to his lectures and speeches/debates I learned more about myself, society, mythology and religion than I did in 4 years of college."

Most of the quotes make your point, but what's so strange about that one? Most students could clear that bar by binge-watching Batman: the Animated Series with Kevin Conroy.

"...the firmly held belief that a man does not cry in public, much less on camera, over anything less than the death of a) a close friend, b) a family member, or c) his dog"

I subscribe to this, with one addition. I can imagine the kinds of letters he gets. Compassion for the broken is not a flaw in itself, especially when it's in the context of "the suffering of your followers."

We'll see what happens when the live test runs; my advance marker is that rhetoric in this area will underperform and to some extent will backfire.

Since those tears are a key bonding mechanism with his followers, though, I can see the operational reason for targeting them.

Blogger FUBARwest May 03, 2018 3:37 PM  

The tears might not be genuine and merely a tactic that he knows gets a response he wants. He has said multiple times how he has a group of advisers watching everything he does and that group critiques him on things he did well vs things that didnt read well. While there isnt anything inherently wrong about it, the man went from not crying every in hundreds of hours on video spanning decades to crying 4 times on camera in the past few months after the first initial time on a podcast in Britain.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out his group said crying made him more relatable and empathetic so now he cries all the time. As time goes on some of his actions seem more and more manufactured.

Blogger Joe Katzman May 03, 2018 3:48 PM  

As a separate matter I'll add this: Many of the things I admire and defend in Mike Cernovich are also things I admire in Peterson. They also share some philosophical flaws, of which civic nationalism is just one.

Peterson, whatever one thinks of him, stepped into the breach and tried to do something with the means at his disposal: mythology + mindset. I believe he is also a good man. I believe he has made some mistakes, and that his philosophy is not as solid as he thinks it is. Which matters, and which I expect Vox to reveal.

I suspect that Vox's war is ultimately going to be with psychology entire, as a false modern construct that does not truly understand the human mind and cannot deliver the nirvana ("salvation" is beyond its concepts) it implicitly promises. Peterson will have a tough tactical time with that, since he already shares many of those doubts.

As for Peterson, he may have advisers, but they're clearly the tactical type. The operational challenge for Peterson will be to circumscribe his claims. Having talked his followers up, he needs to start talking them down. If he doesn't, the 100 foot wave he talks about riding will indeed drown him. His subconscious gets it. But how do you fight the Life of Brian dynamic? I don't think he quite knows.

One more illustration re: Vox's admonitions to follow the people who scrapped to get where they are. People who have failed and had to pivot a time or two.

Cry Havoc, and let slip the cats of philosophy.

Blogger OGRE May 03, 2018 4:47 PM  

@96 Kang

I'm not familiar with Whitehead or process theology. I'll be sure to look into it tonight. But theres definitely a Hegelian basis to an awful lot of what Peterson has to say.

I might be reading too much into JP, and if hes not advancing these ideas hes laying groundwork for them. But I see this move towards an actual Weltgeist--not just in the sense of the unfolding of human history but also as in a communal world consciousness. Its like the Hindu metaphysics of reuniting ones personal spiritual essence with Ultimate Reality, a universal spirit if you will...realizing ones personal and finite Atman with the infinite Brahman.

Thats where I think this all is leading, the beginning of transmodernism. (or metamodernism, or post-postmodernism) I can't quite articulate it all yet, theres just so many different threads weaving together from different places, but they all seem to be lining up. But its this response to the nihilism of post-modernism...where they are taking these varied religious and spiritual ideals and combining them with the analytical framework of modernism through psychology, phenomenology, and idealism. And the result points to a universal consciousness, all the individual Wills joining together for the greater good and becoming one...the ultimate Collective in mind and body. Its why we see the push for diversity and the melting away of national identities...the way to escape all the injustices and power imbalances is to make everyone the same. Throw in some One World Government for good measure too.

Sorry I know thats rambling. I really need to take the time and sort all these ideas out. Theres a big picture there if all the pieces can get sorted.

But I'll say this: If you see anyone on the 'right' whose pushing for forced diversity and globalism while they are attacking the SJWs and cultural marxists, then they are agents of transmodernism.

Blogger tublecane May 03, 2018 5:09 PM  

@71- "That feeling you have about great thoughts floating around inside your head is just a feeling. It doesn't exist until you actually articulate it in writing."

One form of great thought inside your head actually exists: the "Eureka!" moment. When suddenly something becomes clear to you.

But that's not a matter of inarticulable thoughts floating around, even if it gives you a Tip of the Tongue feeling. Eureka moments are very discrete and particular, and you are able to articulate them as they occur to you.

Blogger tublecane May 03, 2018 5:14 PM  

@72- You don't have to be attacked to attack someone. The very fact that a charlatan is a charlatan is reason enough to attack him. If he happens to have wide public influence, all the more reason.

I do believe Peterson has cast aspersions on the alt-right as dishonest and unserious. He probably has alt-retard in mind, but in practice he lumps everyone who takes the Jewish Question seriously as outside civilized discourse. That would include Vox.

Blogger VD May 03, 2018 6:26 PM  

I might be reading too much into JP, and if hes not advancing these ideas hes laying groundwork for them. But I see this move towards an actual Weltgeist--not just in the sense of the unfolding of human history but also as in a communal world consciousness. Its like the Hindu metaphysics of reuniting ones personal spiritual essence with Ultimate Reality, a universal spirit if you will...realizing ones personal and finite Atman with the infinite Brahman.

You're hitting the bong way too hard, dude. There is no communal world consciousness and that is also the complete opposite of Peterson's vision, which is not so much individualistic as solipsistic.

Blogger Lovekraft May 03, 2018 6:39 PM  

@ 103 Katzman:

excellent comment and synopsis.

OpenID eliora613 May 03, 2018 8:00 PM  

VD wrote:

First, this is the guy who is being praised as the most important intellectual in the world right now.

By whom? By some pimply young men? If it is true, all I can say: woe is us. I'm not really very impressed by Jordan Peterson. I'm just glad that there exists a person in academia, and in Canada particularly who openly protests insanity of SJWs using skillful rhetoric.

VD wrote:

Second, I do not dream about, nor desire, his level of popularity. I'm already more popular than I would like to be. I have rejected or ignored more speaking invitations and media requests than you would probably believe.


I just realized that it's not so much about popularity, as about prestige. I'm sorry to say, but even very intelligent people will never achieve this level of prestige for the sheer lack of credentials. Of course, credentials are not everything, and many times they are very misleading (example: Timothy Leary), but it's just how this world works. Musings of a psychology professor about human nature will be treated more seriously than musings of a person who has no professional nor educational background in psychology. That's why it's important that there will be more Petersons, that they would hopefully, attracted by his success, multiply and infect academia with their positive virus of change. He is like a bomb thrown into an echo chamber.

VD wrote:

Yes. But Jordan Peterson is not the Son of Man. Do you remember what it did to Spartacus and his army.

Well, you still know who Spartacus was. :) The point is, it's not likely to harm him, just opposite: all these young men who came to his defense, will just love him more, as love is strengthened by action.

Blogger VD May 03, 2018 8:16 PM  

The point is, it's not likely to harm him, just opposite: all these young men who came to his defense, will just love him more, as love is strengthened by action.

(laughs) So be it. I will tell the truth. That's all I can do. What they do is their concern, not mine.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 03, 2018 8:36 PM  

"Here I stand, I can do no other."

Blogger OGRE May 03, 2018 10:42 PM  

@107 VD

Of course theres no world consciousness. I'm not advocating for that belief and its literally a heresy as far as I'm concerned. I'm not even saying that Peterson believes that. What I am saying is that knowing where Peterson is coming from (Nietzsche, Jung) and what he is in opposition to (Derrida, Foucault), the direction he is heading is towards that type of belief. Whether he goes there or not I can't say...I've listened to several of his interviews, I read the Harris transcript at lunch today, but I haven't read one word of his books. But taking his background and positions relative to the current culture, thats whats coming. He might not be the one to say it, but hes holding the signs up pointing others toward that direction.

I'm listening to your most recent Darkstream as I write this. I don't see how JP can be labelled solipsistic; certainly hes self-obsessed. But solipsism would be the belief that he can only have knowledge of his own mind (epistemological), or that there are no other minds (metaphysical). That would be a difficult position for a clinical psychologist to maintain. Your point that hes self-absorbed and narcissistic is correct, but I have yet to see anything hes said that would indicate solipsism.

He might every well consider himself a Nietzschean Ubermensch, here to guide humanity away from the nihilism of post-modernism to a new source of meaning and value.

Your recent critiquing of JP has made me focus not necessarily on the man himself but on the philosophical movement for which he is a predicate. Post-modernism is in its death throes and JP is one of the markers of whats to come. Whatever it is, it will of course be an anti-Christian attempt to provide meaning in a world without God. And I'm pretty convinced that it will not be in violent opposition to Christ as post-modernism is but instead a seductive substitution for Him. Post-modernism is just the setup, the diversion, the lead-in. And JP is currently at the forefront in bringing forward this philosophical shift.

OpenID paulmurray May 04, 2018 2:20 AM  

JP got one thing right - that the government ought not force people to speak made-up languages(*) imposed unilaterally by SJWs. Aside from that, he's a conventional professor of psychology.

But thousands of otherwise red-pilled people jumped on the bandwagon, thrilled at being vindicated by the establishment. All I'd say in his defense is that he himself is not responsible for the insane cult of personality that has arisen around him.

I'm similarly cautious about the thousands of red-pilled people suddenly deciding that maybe Kanye West's music isn't so bad after all. His music hasn't changed in the slightest.

---
(*) Pronouns are not arbitrary like names-of-things, they particles that are part of the english language, like 'on', 'into', and 'is'. The pronoun 'Xe' simply isn't english. It's Kingon or something.

Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira May 04, 2018 6:37 AM  

He was interesting at first, but I slowly realised Peterson and his fanboys are a disturbed bunch. VD is merely describing it more accurately. The more I listened to him, the more crazy he sounded. His ambition to rebuild Western Civilisation but without Christ is pure satanic.

Blogger Don't Call Me Len May 04, 2018 7:22 AM  

Its scope is so broad that I can see only parts of it clearly at one time, and it is exceedingly difficult to set down comprehensibly in writing.

Ol' JP thinks he's the Kwisatz Haderach.

Blogger The Stygian May 04, 2018 6:01 PM  

So he's French?

Blogger Y. May 05, 2018 9:55 AM  

@Daniel Paul Grech Pereira


His ambition to rebuild Western Civilisation but without Christ is pure satanic.


On what esoteric reading of Peterson do you believe he has that ambition. What he wants is communists ideas (equality of outcome, social justice, white privilege) exposed and purged from Western world.

He doesn't argue against Christianity. Personally I've spoken to multiple hardline Christians (sedevacantist eastern catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses) and they seem quite unconcerned and happy when I tell them the wisdom of the Bible can be argued for on the basis of evolution and biology. It is just more proof the Bible is true.

Where's the danger?

What it that can lead to is atheists or ignostic heathens like me being more respectful of organized religion.

Personally, there are few people outside of criminals I detest more than the point-and-laugh WE FUCKING LOVE SCIENCe atheist crowd. They're worse than feminists, and mostly don't even have the excuse of being female and thus less logical.



Blogger coltov mocktail May 07, 2018 9:39 PM  

so what's your problem? pissy 'cause Stefan Molyneux got all ebullient and bubbly? why don't you try to fault your target of disdain with something besides guilt by association?

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