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Tuesday, July 24, 2018

The peculiar opacity of Jordan Peterson

Jordan Peterson is definitely peculiar, but he is only opaque to those who can't follow him. Which includes, necessarily, the entirety of his fan base:
Peterson’s definition of God is a sprawling, book-length collection of abstractions, some of which are grounded in narratives about the human condition, while others are mere descriptions of psychological and temporal realities (“…the future to which we make sacrifices”). In other words, it’s a definition that’s so elastic and subjective as to be almost meaningless. As Harris put it, “That’s not how most people most of the time are using the word, and there’s something misleading about that.”

To which Peterson responded, “I never made the claim that what I’m talking about is like what other people are talking about.” That’s true, and he often says he doesn’t define ‘belief’ or ‘God’ in the same way as anyone else. Even when he’s asked a more specific question—about, say, his belief (or lack thereof) in the divinity of Christ—he says the answer depends on the interviewer’s definitions of ‘Christ’ and ‘divine.’ But Peterson still uses words like ‘divine’ all the time. He’s happy to describe consciousness as divine, which he considers to be an “axiomatic statement.” He’s more than willing to tell you “magical things happen as the logos manifests itself” before announcing his firm belief that the logos is divine, too. But only if, by ‘divine,’ you mean “Of ultimate transcendent value.”

But then, what does Peterson mean by ‘transcendent’? Or ‘value’? And what will he mean by all the words he uses to answer those questions? Communication becomes extremely difficult if we allow ourselves repeatedly to be drawn into a labyrinth of semantic distinctions. That is precisely why there has to be some fundamental agreement about what words actually mean at the beginning of any conversation. This is something Peterson can be particularly bad at doing, when the mood takes him—just listen to his excruciating two-hour conversation with Harris that never managed to get past the disputed meaning of the word ‘truth.’
As I call it, bafflegarble. It's nonsense that baffles the insufficiently comprehending.
When it comes to telling us where our morality comes from, Peterson’s equivocal, opaque language suddenly falls away and he leaves us in no doubt about what he’s trying to say. He’s making yet another simplistic, monocausal argument that ignores all the elements of our philosophical and cultural tradition that contradict it.

So what about the rationalist critiques of religion written by Enlightenment atheists like Hume and Spinoza? Or the withering attacks on Christianity by Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine? What about all the aspects of our Christian heritage that Peterson doesn’t emphasize, like the virulent anti-Semitism that infected the Third Reich, the scriptural warrants for slavery and genocide, and the savage religious wars that preceded the Enlightenment? Why has moral progress so often required our civilization to renounce the dogmas and dictates of the Judeo-Christian tradition Peterson reveres?

Peterson knows he doesn’t have to answer these questions because, despite all his declarations to the contrary, he isn’t bound by this tradition. In one breath, he tells the audience they live in a society that would collapse without the immovable foundation of Judeo-Christian values. In the next, he reminds them that his God is a modern God, unsullied by the barbarism of ancient texts and unencumbered by the immense weight of history. There’s just one problem: Jordan Peterson’s God is nobody else’s God.
Of course not. Because the Judeo-Christian tradition he reveres does not exist and Jordan Peterson couldn't believe he is the messiah who will save humanity from destruction by war if he believed in either a) the Christian god or b) any other god that humanity has ever worshiped throughout history. Forget him not being a Christian, he's not even a noble pagan.

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85 Comments:

Blogger Michael Maier July 24, 2018 5:50 AM  

"bafflegarble" Good word.

I am trying to come up with a dissection of JP for a friend that likes him. I just cannot summarize the man further than "he just throws shite against the wall forever and folks marvel at the parts that stick".

Blogger Don't Call Me Len July 24, 2018 6:04 AM  

I tried the old “I never made the claim that what I’m talking about is like what other people are talking about” scam with the IRS. Din't turn out too well.

Blogger Cecil Henry July 24, 2018 6:08 AM  



At 4:00 in this video Peterson shows that he is just a leftist trying to keep liberalism together and allow leftism to 'make its ascendance again'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbHhIpRwPC8

He's not woke. In fact he's determined not to be:

In fact you can see from 3:30 onwards that in this short discussion that he has no intention of challenging the 'identity politics' of his very obtuse and ridiculous challenger. Its almost cringe worthy hypocrisy.



Blogger Mark Stoval July 24, 2018 6:16 AM  

“When I use a word,” Jordan Peterson said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”

“The question is,” said a follower, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”

“The question is,” said Jordan Peterson, “which is to be master – – that’s all.”

(with apologies to Lewis Carroll)

Blogger Rick July 24, 2018 6:38 AM  

Like the rise of Obama, he never really said anything, and so his devotees were able to project what ever desires they had onto him. There was certainly nothing there to prove them wrong.
Hope for what? Change to what?
The way this is going, we won’t need to know who JP is in almost no time.

Blogger Sherwood family July 24, 2018 6:38 AM  

I watched some of his biblical lectures. His lecture on Easter was so abstruse as to bear no functional relationship to topic at hand. Half-baked Jungian claptrap.

Blogger exfarmkid July 24, 2018 6:44 AM  

when JP has a public scandal will we call it "bafflegate"?

Blogger Attila is my bro July 24, 2018 6:46 AM  

***I am trying to come up with a dissection of JP for a friend that likes him. I just cannot summarize the man further than "he just throws shite against the wall forever and folks marvel at the parts that stick".***

Tell them he's a snake oil salesman and a tool for the globohomo empire. Explain how he rose to prominence unusually fast and inorganically, and ask if he was truly an intellectual competitor to the globohomo empire then why hasn't he been banned from all the usual places the globohomo elite run? Ever? And then drop the Soros bomb on them and tell them to look it up for themselves.

The Soros thing is low hanging mematic fruit - they'll go for that every time because Soros is a hard trigger and web searches are easy and fast. "Don't believe me - look it up on goolag! I can't believe you didn't know this already."

Then for the cherry on top, tell them that he wrote in his own book that he is on psychotropic drugs and he has messianic and incest/cannibalistic fantasies. "Don't believe me - read it for yourself! It's all in his books. I can't believe you didn't know that already."

Blogger Daniel Hammarberg July 24, 2018 6:47 AM  

I find it baffling how any Christian can have deluded himself into believing JP shares his god. And it's also quite deplorable on JP's part to try to deceive them into thinking that. Had he had an honest bone in his body, he'd have come clean about his atheism. But he manipulates Christians into believing in him, and many suckers fall for it. I even had a comment removed from Lifesite for questioning this charlatan.

Blogger Zander Stander July 24, 2018 7:02 AM  

Vox you beat me to it, saw this article earlier this morning & wanted to post the link. Great minds & all that.

Blogger widlast washere July 24, 2018 7:09 AM  

Peterson seems like a fairly bright fellow, what strikes me though is that he seems to be suffering from a severe case of relativism. He just can't seem to grasp that words have well defined meanings and that a well defined "reality" exists.
Far too many folks these days think that how they feel about something defines the something in some way.

Blogger VD July 24, 2018 7:15 AM  

what strikes me though is that he seems to be suffering from a severe case of relativism. He just can't seem to grasp that words have well defined meanings and that a well defined "reality" exists.

You can't understand Peterson until you understand that he views himself as the potential world-savior who thinks thoughts that no one has ever thought before. He's literally that crazy.

Blogger Dirk Manly July 24, 2018 7:17 AM  

@1

"I am trying to come up with a dissection of JP for a friend that likes him."

Why not just send him this link:

http://voxday.blogspot.com/search/label/Jordanetics

And tell him to read the posts in chronological order.

Blogger Peter Gent July 24, 2018 7:18 AM  

What Peterson is, is the incarnation in the real world of Tolkien's despicable Lord of the Rings character Gríma Wormtongue.

Blogger Solon July 24, 2018 7:27 AM  

Every time I listen to JBP these days, I'm always reminded of the kid's book Frindle, where some kid decides to call pens "frindles" instead, and gets everyone else to go along with it.

That book always infuriated me, just like JBP does nowadays. Makes me want to shake the man and say to him: "You don't need to redefine God, or Truth, or Christ, or any word that is commonly used in the English language. Stop twisting them into something they are not; you know damn well what is meant when someone says 'God,' now answer the damn question straight, you snake."

Blogger Tim July 24, 2018 7:28 AM  

A recommended study task for the curious thinker who wishes to compare the relation of Jordan's philosophy with that of traditional christian theology and beliefs I recommend reading and comparing Craig and Moreland's Philosophical foundations for a Christian world view with Peterson's Maps of Meaning.

Blogger dienw July 24, 2018 7:34 AM  

Peter Gent wrote:What Peterson is, is the incarnation in the real world of Tolkien's despicable Lord of the Rings character Gríma Wormtongue.

Ah, hoisted with his own archetype.

Blogger Wuzzums Fuzzums July 24, 2018 7:39 AM  

Venaloid, some atheist YouTuber, has good videos about Peterson. He does a great job at stringing JP with his own words.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrOSrhE3mBU

In one of the Peterson excerpt he comes up with the EPIC line: "If you don't die enough you also die". Sounds a lot like "If you kill your enemies, they win". "Catch 22" was a novel not national policy, Canada.

Blogger Tim July 24, 2018 7:41 AM  

One immediately detectable problem with Peterson's definition of God (roughly as "The highest value of an individuals value hierarchy) is that this confines God to only the relative subjective preferences of an agents values which is very problematic to say the least, an individual may well have (and indeed many have had) as their highest value (on their ladder of preferences) a strong desire to torture and kill children for pleasure, surely we aren't going to identify God with a strong desire to commit such acts?

Blogger bob kek mando - ( don't ask, "Who mentats the Mentats?", ask instead, "Who shitpoasts the Shitpoasters?" ) July 24, 2018 7:55 AM  

7. exfarmkid July 24, 2018 6:44 AM
when JP has a public scandal will we call it "bafflegate"?



what do you mean by "pedophile"?

Blogger JACIII July 24, 2018 7:58 AM  

VD wrote:what strikes me though is that he seems to be suffering from a severe case of relativism. He just can't seem to grasp that words have well defined meanings and that a well defined "reality" exists.

You can't understand Peterson until you understand that he views himself as the potential world-savior who thinks thoughts that no one has ever thought before. He's literally that crazy.


So, a perpetual college kid in a man's body with a messiah complex and high verbal skill.

Blogger Stilicho July 24, 2018 8:07 AM  

Jordan Peterson: Eat of the tree of knowledge of Jordan Peterson and ye shall become as gods.

Now where have we heard that before?

It's only a matter of time until jordanetics-based self-help clinics start popping up. I wouldn't be surprised to see his acolytes going door to door to spread the "good news" (or selling pencils in airports for that matter). From there it'll be a short step to cannibalizing a cousin or two. Because self-actualization.

Blogger SouthRon July 24, 2018 8:11 AM  

If there is one thing we learned from all of Vox's discussions and debates with atheists, it is that they all define words uniquely and in such a way as to define God into something incoherent and impossible to be believed in and to render any meaningful discussion or debate impossible. In other words, no matter what a person says about God or gods, you can rest assured that when they embark upon a labyrinth of personal definitions, they are an atheist and like Lucifer would seek to put themselves in the place of God. Ergo, Peterson is evil. Peterson is a Satan-following atheist.

Blogger Phillip George July 24, 2018 8:25 AM  

Simpletons like me stick to the Creation, the resurrection, abiogenesis and Kurt Godel and Frederick Fitch.

Throw in a smattering of Wittgenstein and Popper and I think I can safely say everyone is an idiot in their own unique way.

In the end, Jesus.

Blogger Samuel Nock July 24, 2018 8:25 AM  

The most disturbing thing about Peterson is that he is well aware of the dangers of pride, the dangers of assuming that man is not under the rule of a higher moral power, i.e. the dangers of believing we can usurp God.

Yet, knowing all of this, that is precisely his goal: to set himself up as the replacement for that higher power.

This is literally Luciferian. Peterson’s goal is to be a new Lucifer on Earth.

Blogger JACIII July 24, 2018 8:27 AM  

SouthRon wrote:If there is one thing we learned from all of Vox's discussions and debates with atheists, it is that they all define words uniquely .....

One you see it, it's so common that it feels like an intellectual crutch to use it to mark the liar. "It can't really be this easy. They can't ALL do it...." Yes, they can and they do.

Blogger wreckage July 24, 2018 8:32 AM  

The author seems unaware that all of humanity's worst crimes were committed after the Enlightenment and with the full approval of the Enlightenment's few original thoughts; the majority of laudible sentiments attributed to it being either, in fact, Christianity, or bafflegarble fit to make Peterson himself blush.

So perhaps Peterson is truly the inheritor of Enlightenment thought here, being as it's largely rebadged Christianity overlaid with deeply dangerous and incoherent sophistry.

Blogger SouthRon July 24, 2018 8:33 AM  

This is also why so many so-called atheists are neopagans. It is not that they do not believe in no gods. They do not believe in the God the Father specifically, who is the God of Truth. They believe instead the Father of Lies and there is no contradiction between believing Satan and being a neopagan.

Blogger Phillip George July 24, 2018 8:38 AM  

I wager if we chose the right scales he weighs precisely that of a duck.
We dare not replace empiricism with theory

Friends, Romans, lend me your ears.

Blogger The Kurgan July 24, 2018 8:41 AM  

Yup. The letter to his father was enough to really identify this megalomaniac freak for what he is.
Unhinged.

Blogger Phillip George July 24, 2018 9:02 AM  

I bought 12 rules for my son to skim. Has anyone asked Peterson if he's a Christian.
You know, the bit about Jesus being crucified, certified dead, and a three days non breathing rotting corpse being recreated to life? I mean, does he know anything worth knowing?

Blogger Damelon Brinn July 24, 2018 9:05 AM  

I tried to watch one of his videos several months ago, because people were quoting him on some forums and it was supposed to be a good introduction. Seemed like a lot of nonsense with big words. It could be that I'm not educated enough in philosophy to keep up. But it smelled more like snake oil for smart people.

Blogger The Service July 24, 2018 9:14 AM  

In semi-defense of Peterson, it is difficult to speak straightforwardly about God without succumbing to bafflegarble.

Vox, have you ever come across a straightforward and clear definition of God that you found satisfying?

Blogger Cloom Glue July 24, 2018 9:20 AM  

@18 Venaloid's upper forehead reminds me of faux fur hats.

https://www.furhatworld.com/images_wm/large/Black_Fox_Fur_Headband_7243.jpg

Venaloid begins, "Jordan Peterson is a Christian. He said so many times."

I think he should have proved that first because I heard a couple hours of peterson-bible-junk and never heard Peterson say that, and what does "save face with Christianity" mean. I think he means Christianity needs saving face; yes, he is an atheist using Peterson to pound Christians.

Blogger Samuel Nock July 24, 2018 9:24 AM  

@31 It doesn't matter whether Peterson actually IS a Christian: he has been deemed to be and given honorary Christian status by the Christian leadership, which is more than any of us could ever hope to achieve.

https://babylonbee.com/news/jordan-peterson-granted-honorary-christian-status/

Blogger Dirk Manly July 24, 2018 9:25 AM  

Defining God is quite easy -- God is the being who holds enough power to create the entire universe.

SOME entity created the universe -- when you find that entity, then you have found God. If some being has the power to create the entire universe, then that same being has the ability to create multiple people, and otherwise influence what happens within the creation. To deny that God would have the power to influence any part of the universe after creating it is simply absurd -- the same as denying that a baker, after assembling various ingredients has any influence on how ingredients are mixed, how it is all baked, and what other things happen to the creation even after it comes out of the oven. And at a more fine-grained level -- a batch of cupcakes. Some he might keep and take home, while selling others, and allowing the fate to befall those whatever may come, with no further intervention.

It's really that simple.

Blogger Phillip George July 24, 2018 9:25 AM  

snake oil works; there are no arthritic snakes.

He reminds me of desiderata.

What's wrong with carnival cotton candy?
Carnivals can't survive without clowns and who is hard-hearted enough to ban circuses? Is this town too small for a village idiot? Is a helium balloon to be compared to a wrecking ball?
Is this a cat in a pigeon coop or a horse spooked by the unseen and unknowable.

Toe that line, check your sights, keep your powder dry.

Blogger VFM #4388 July 24, 2018 9:38 AM  

@31 whenever someone tries to pin him down on this, his response is always some combination of "That depends on what you mean by God, that depends on what you mean by Jesus, that depends on what you mean by death, and that depends on what you mean by resurrection."

Now it happens from time to time that a dictionary definition does not address a concept we want to address. What a genuine intellectual does at this point is either set out from the outset that he is using a custom definition or, more commonly, neologize (e.g. Vox's "Scientody, Scientistry, etc") or borrow words from other languages (e.g. C.S. Lewis's "Zoe Vs. Bios") to capture the concept.

If you don't say at the outset that you're using abnormal definitions, but instead bring them up when someone is questioning you, it's a sign that either a) you don't know what you're talking about, b) you are lying and trying to hide the fact that you're lying, c) you're trying to destroy a philosophy by smuggling opposing propaganda into its terminology through redefinition, or d) some combination thereof.

With Peterson it seems more likely that he's lying than that he's deconstructing, as he seems to want the benefits of Christianity without the burdens of 'anti-scientific' beliefs and non-progressive mores, but on the flip side, he lies so profusely that he really doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Blogger Phillip George July 24, 2018 9:40 AM  

live?
Philippe Gilbert just hit a retaining wall on a descent. Fell into a ravine. Cut, bruised, shaken not stirred, 150 km done, 55 km to go, gets up, mans up and pushes on..


this is the race.

Blogger Phillip George July 24, 2018 9:44 AM  

38. VFM #4388

so is a confused idiot a malevolent idiot?

Blogger VFM #4388 July 24, 2018 9:46 AM  

@33

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/god?s=t

noun
1. The one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.

It's really not hard.

If you want to exhaustively define the divine attributes, of course that will be tricky, considering the human mind isn't sufficiently powerful to grasp all of its own intricacies, so why should it be able to comprehend its creator?

But defining God is no harder than defining Mt. Rushmore, or Unicorns. We can argue about its existence and debate its properties, but the moment you say "that depends on what you mean by Mt. Rushmore," or "that depends on what you mean by unicorns," it's clear you're being slimy and disingenuous. Everybody who speaks the language knows what you mean by Mt. Rushmore or Unicorns, and there is no reason to pretend otherwise unless your goal is to deceive.

Blogger VFM #4388 July 24, 2018 9:50 AM  

@40

Not at all. There is no necessary connection between confusion and malevolence.

We know Peterson is malevolent not because he's dodgy and slimy, but because he's outright stated:
1) His mission is to catch people abandoning the left before they escape to the right.
2) He dreamed about eating his sexy cousin, and he believes this is a prophecy about how important he is.
3) He wants to by a church so he can deliver his message from a pulpit.

These are evil and insane things.

Blogger Phillip George July 24, 2018 10:05 AM  

VFM #4388

copy coordinates. Fire when ready.

Blogger VD July 24, 2018 10:05 AM  

I bought 12 rules for my son to skim.

(facepalm) Seriously? You preen and posture about how well you see through Peterson, then you turn around and materially support the man in order to let him influence your children.

Unbelievable.

Blogger VD July 24, 2018 10:06 AM  

Vox, have you ever come across a straightforward and clear definition of God that you found satisfying?

Yes.

Blogger Gritón del Desierto July 24, 2018 10:33 AM  

Could it be that We are witnessing a typical case of leftist verbiage?

Blogger Resident Moron™ July 24, 2018 10:36 AM  

Thing is, people are really good at convincing ourselves that what we want to be true really is true.

The catch is that in order to make this work, we have to (a) forget the truth we know, and (b) forget that we deliberately chose to do (a).

The more alert reader will note that while this typically allows us to present untruths with every appearance of sincerity, it doesn’t actually make us honest, or confused, or innocent of calculated deception.

Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira July 24, 2018 10:45 AM  

Disregarding what he says, he has the face and mannerisms of a cracked out lunatic. Listen to that voice. He sounds like at one point he was a serious drug/cig smoker. Is that a clue to his past?

The guy grew up far north in Alberta, probably around a lot of natives and mangiacake Canadians who were fairly racist towards them. A lot of people at that time in Western Canada were marxist/communist scumbags and later formed the NDP. Rural Canadians smoke and drink very heavily, especially in those regions. Perhaps he grew up drinking hard liquor and smoking heavily, possibly drugs. I do recall that he admitted at some point to being a heavy drinker in his youth before changing his life. If you know the type, you'll immediately recognize the kind of lifestyle this guy was probably bound for, if not his IQ that allowed him to escape a drunken drug addicted high north lifestyle and a life of hard work. We all know Peterson couldn't lift a hammer, nor throw a punch in self-defense.

Blogger Daniel Babylon July 24, 2018 10:46 AM  

VFM #4388 wrote:1) His mission is to catch people abandoning the left before they escape to the right.
It's interesting that the way he keeps people on the Left is by filling their mind with incoherent babbling. Or maybe he's trying to make right-wingers look bad by getting us to fall for his nonsense?

Blogger Thumos July 24, 2018 10:57 AM  

When you examine all intellectual dark web people you find nothing but cringeworthy hypocrisy. It's our responsibility IMO to make this known to their fans

Blogger Damelon Brinn July 24, 2018 11:13 AM  

2. Q. Who is God?
A. God is the Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things.
13. Q. What is God?
A. God is a spirit infinitely perfect.


Six-year-olds learn these. Of course you can go deeper into the theology of it. But if someone just asks you, as a starting point, "Who/What is God?" you should be able to give a straightforward answer like that and then build on it if you want, not say, "Well, that's complicated, read my book."

Blogger Peter Gent July 24, 2018 11:19 AM  

Phillip George wrote:38. VFM #4388

so is a confused idiot a malevolent idiot?

While one could have given him the benefit of the doubt when he started out, he has been confronted too many times in recent years to maintain the confused idiot stance. It is obvious he is unbalanced in a serious way. Lately I have begun to consider whether or not he is under spiritual control by the dark side. I mean active control. Look at some of his mannerisms, especially how he uses his mouth. It gives me the willies.

Blogger Samuel Nock July 24, 2018 11:20 AM  

Lately, it seems like Molyneux might (_might_) be coming at Peterson obliquely. Here is his latest presentation railing against "intellectuals" who are unable to present complex ideas in simple language to everyday people who could benefit from them the most.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7YxdMQ78eQ

Blogger Lovekraft July 24, 2018 11:31 AM  

@ VD: Takimag's David Cole put up an article basically slamming anyone on the alt-right who has a problem with Gunn and so-called pedohumor. He also took a shot at Cernovich.

Taki pulled its comment page down a few months ago and lost Gavin M, and now this.

Wonder if you want to review Cole's argument and offer your insight (I tried messaging their mailroom but the link was locked). Cole's arguing free speech should be absolute, and I think he's a sharp guy, but something about his message seems 'off' to me, as though he's afraid of the momentum we're building here.

http://takimag.com/article/shouting_pedo_in_a_crowded_twitter_david_cole

Blogger English Tom July 24, 2018 11:32 AM  

@Tim

Re: Peterson's definition of God as 'the highest value of an individual's value hierarchy

He forgets who created the universe and everything in it.

Blogger English Tom July 24, 2018 11:35 AM  

@Bob Men Mando

What do you mean by paedophile.

Very good point. I can see the left trying to redefine this merely as someone who has a fondness for children (now how innocuous is that)?

Blogger English Tom July 24, 2018 11:35 AM  

Damn autocorrect again. Sorry Bob

Blogger RB July 24, 2018 11:37 AM  

@48
It's possible that what you are guessing at might have impact, however, I know heavy drinkers and even recreational drug users who would see through this re-packaged new age horse shit in a heartbeat. The real difference I see between him and the other all are divine self actualization crowd is that he seems to want to be the decider of meaning, reality, and divinity, while also being the ring leader who gets to move all the shifting pieces around the circus tent.

Blogger Resident Moron™ July 24, 2018 11:37 AM  

No political principle is absolute in the sense that it is able to render any class of acts immune to consequence.

This type of freedom, this type of free speech, i.e. speech without consequence, is as nonexistent as equality.

I will share with you what almost nobody - and certainly no political operator - wants you to know:

You ARE free.

Human law is only a promise of post facto punishment.

Divine law is an advisory of consequence.

In both cases you are free to choose.

Blogger English Tom July 24, 2018 11:41 AM  

@Jaciii

A perpetual college kid in a man's body with a messiah complex...

Oh put not your trust in Princes.

Blogger Resident Moron™ July 24, 2018 11:42 AM  

But in spite of your absolute freedom, you’re not free to indulge in any act without consequence.

Such things are simply not on the menu in this place of purveyance and to order them is a willful delusion - itself a choice with consequences both severe and unavoidable.

Blogger English Tom July 24, 2018 11:43 AM  

@Stilicho

Yes they will call his cult: the River Jordan or some such.

Blogger Samuel Nock July 24, 2018 11:48 AM  

@55

"Peterson's definition of God as 'the highest value of an individual's value hierarchy."

Or in other words: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." -- Aleister Crowley

Peterson is a Satanist in sheep's clothing.

Blogger Tars Tarkusz July 24, 2018 11:52 AM  

I'm surprised Vox didn't tear that assertion of the Nazi Holocaust being caused (or possibly enabled) by Christianity. I guess the homo-SA was Christian too?

Whoever wrote that text is even worse than Peterson!

Blogger Brad Matthews July 24, 2018 12:32 PM  

Garblegate

Blogger FP July 24, 2018 1:02 PM  

"To which Peterson responded, “I never made the claim that what I’m talking about is like what other people are talking about.”"

Well, knock me over with a feather. You don't say! Aka Peterson is a Headshrinker who's main question in life is, "well what do you think it means?" He sure as hell has no idea and is trying to find out when he's not having weird dreams and lusting after Commie art.

Doc Pete, I had a dream where I was flying through the air on a moose as the world burned around me. Zhim's, zhe's, and zirs everywhere. What does it all mean?

Well, what do you think it means?

He's a loony.

Blogger Jeroth July 24, 2018 1:05 PM  

Nothing illustrates Jordan Peterson's "belief" in God better than this 40 second video: Do you believe in God?

Blogger R Webfoot July 24, 2018 1:33 PM  

"One immediately detectable problem with Peterson's definition of God (roughly as "The highest value of an individuals value hierarchy)"

He does abstract that as "the highest conceivable value," and argues for something like "live in such a manner as to reduce the amount of unnecessary suffering, the exact opposite of things like the Holocaust."

He does, however, have this weird belief that you can tell when you are just on the line between Order and Chaos, just at the point where you are learning something important, and you can tell because you will instinctively focus and pay attention, and treats this as a big WHOA that we are evolved to find meaning.

Which, I suppose, a mentally healthy individual of good character MIGHT feel like that when they are doing what is right- others get it from eatprayloving, drug concerts, or picking up young boys at a science fiction convention.

He is very adept in describing how things and people can go awfully wrong, but his proposal for anything positive falls well short.

Blogger Wuzzums Fuzzums July 24, 2018 2:41 PM  

Cloom Glue wrote:I think he should have proved that first because I heard a couple hours of peterson-bible-junk and never heard Peterson say that, and what does "save face with Christianity" mean. I think he means Christianity needs saving face; yes, he is an atheist using Peterson to pound Christians.

Peterson mentions he's a Christian in every single talk of his I heard and I heard plenty. Asking to prove this is like asking to prove Sam Harris is an atheist.

What Venaloid meant when he said "save face with Christianity" is not that Christianity needs saving face. He meant to say that Peterson wants to appear as a Christian to Christians and, as Venaloid later points out, does not want to attack Christianity because of Peterson's personal reasons.

Finally, Venaloid is an atheist of the same make as Dawkins or Harris, and I do think his attack on Peterson does stem from his need to bash Christianity. However him being an atheist of that sort does make him able to accurately identify who is or isn't a Christian. Which is why he's going after Peterson from this angle. I suspect he wanted to attack Peterson because he heard was a Christian but in doing the research he found out he wasn't a Christian at all. Watch his other videos on Peterson, he makes a pretty clear point Jordan Peterson is just another postmodernist.

Blogger Joseph Maroney July 24, 2018 2:52 PM  

"Lately I have begun to consider whether or not he is under spiritual control by the dark side. I mean active control."

His esoteric dreams about pyramids and his depraved dreams about his cousin strongly suggests that this is the case.

Blogger SirHamster July 24, 2018 3:25 PM  

Phillip George wrote:Has anyone asked Peterson if he's a Christian.

You know, the bit about Jesus being crucified, certified dead, and a three days non breathing rotting corpse being recreated to life?


Yes.

Interviewer pressed and asked specifically about the Resurrection.

JBP: "Can't answer that".

Blogger Darwinite July 24, 2018 3:57 PM  

Wuzzums, I watched all the Bible lectures, and listened to all of the Maps and Personality lectures, as well as many hours of interviews. He never said he is a Christian, he explicitly and repeatedly says he left the faith as a child. Peterson teaches a gospel without Christ, that makes him an Antichrist.

Blogger Spherix July 24, 2018 6:44 PM  

for all the intellect that i enjoy on this board it baffles me that most do not see the true teachings of Christ, which all point to the realisation that awareness itself is what everything appears within, and is made of. This realisation is your true nature and referred to as "heaven," because the very nature of this awakening is pure love and joy.
Peterson is pointing to divinity as being this realisation that our true nature or true self is not the body or the mind but that which is perceiving it - consciousness itself. any spiritual practice worth its salt should allow one to come to this realisation.
The christian teachings point to this as well as any but most are too caught up in literal translations of the parables and thus wind up worshipping some kind of deity, which is, of course, even more ridiculous than this so called "bafflegarble"

Blogger Wuzzums Fuzzums July 24, 2018 7:09 PM  

Darwinite wrote:Wuzzums, I watched all the Bible lectures, and listened to all of the Maps and Personality lectures, as well as many hours of interviews.

Me too. And I posted a vid where he is clearly asked the question and answers it, so you're completely wrong.

And in case you weren't paying attention to the topic or any of JBP's videos, the guy never answers any question clearly because there is no clear answer in his own head. He EXPLICITLY says it himself, his answers aren't answers. They're a verbalization of his thought process but with no final conclusion; it's the algorithm of his thinking without any clear output data.

Because his thinking is so foggy and vague people usually add on top their own preferred interpretations, which is why he's so well received. Which is also why Christians attack him for not being Christian based on their own definition of Christianity, and atheists attack him for being Christian based on their own definition of Christianity.

We've seen this before with people like Deepak Chopra. Peterson's popularity does seem to be on the wane lately and I suspect that if things go the way they're going by 2019 the hoi polloi will have moved on to the next popular thing. Pretty unimpressive Antichrist, if you ask me.

Blogger SirHamster July 24, 2018 7:31 PM  

Wuzzums Fuzzums wrote:Which is also why Christians attack him for not being Christian based on their own definition of Christianity,

Christians have basic and simple litmus tests, centered on Jesus.

Jesus came in the flesh, was crucified, and rose again. Peterson failed it. Identification is not an attack. It can be the starting point for one, but merely IDing as not-Christian is not an attack.

Saying that JBP is a liar and false prophet, now that's an attack.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 24, 2018 7:33 PM  

With Peterson it seems more likely that he's lying than that he's deconstructing

Both.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 24, 2018 7:35 PM  

@54
Takimag's David Cole put up an article basically slamming anyone on the alt-right who has a problem with Gunn and so-called pedohumor. He also took a shot at Cernovich

(((Cole))) owed the rest of the Tribe big for his (excellent) work exposing the flaws in the Auschwitz narrative. The JDL was out to kill him for a while. He had to come to terms with the sanhedrin somehow. Cole is fairly deft with the wordsmithimg, but I doubt there's any real principle behind it -- he got the word to close ranks on this one, so he did. Hard to blame him, really.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 24, 2018 8:04 PM  

@56

What do you mean by paedophile.

Very good point. I can see the left trying to redefine this merely as someone who has a fondness for children (now how innocuous is that)?


That's "minor-attracted person" (MAP), you pedophobe! Please try to be more tolerant of the differently-sexually-preferenced in the current year.

@64
The author makes a pretty good argument against the Enlightenment, I'll give him that...

Note also that he gets pretty worked up that Peterson dared to mention that Communism (responsible for 100 million deaths in the 20th century) is the quintessential atheist political ideology, so he immediately attempts to divert into the alleged horrors of "fascist" Spain under Franco, and Portugal under Salazar (both Catholic). A pretty transparent "Yeah, we've already stepped over that -- you're really not supposed to mention it because muh 'McCarthyism' or something" kind of move.

Blogger Cloom Glue July 24, 2018 8:06 PM  

Peterson is pointing to divinity as being this realisation that our true nature or true self is not the body or the mind but that which is perceiving it - consciousness itself. ... caught up in literal translations of the parables and thus wind up worshiping some kind of deity, which is, of course, even more ridiculous than

That is Lucifer's error where he thinks his own consciousness is God. Your attempt at equating all spiritual practice as consciousness is very incorrect and there are many forks in the road off the narrow path. Go through Jesus Christ to the Father with fasting, prayer and humility and overcoming sin by letting it die daily. I think there is a fake holy spirit that can fool you with incorrect consciousness practice; for example: drugs and other practices.

Blogger Dirk Manly July 25, 2018 1:38 AM  

@76

"With Peterson it seems more likely that he's lying than that he's deconstructing"




Apply deconstructionist technique to deconstructionism. What you get is that if Deconstructionism is true, it proves that deconstructionism is a lie. And only if deconstructionism is false can deconstructionism have any hope of being true.

Therefore, Deconstructionism is false.

Therefore, USING Deconstructionism is itself a lie.

Therefore, with Peterson, it seems more likely that he's lying BY THE USE OF Deconstruction.

Blogger Lyon July 25, 2018 2:15 AM  

@47. Well stated. It's one of the most subtle of traps, as far as those we willingly walk straight into, often enough enthusiastically.

Blogger Lyon July 25, 2018 2:50 AM  


Bafflegarble. Noun. See example @73. Spherix

“Peterson is pointing to divinity as being this realisation that our true nature or true self is not the body or the mind but that which is perceiving it - consciousness itself.” – Spherix

Your entire post @73. was so "deep" it’s meaningless; ergo it’s bafflegarble.

Blogger Peter Harris. July 25, 2018 5:38 AM  

There is a word we have in Australia for people like Jordan Peterson, and that is wanker. Actually, he is a colossal wanker.

Blogger RB July 25, 2018 9:30 AM  

@73 Spherix-

Worshiping your consciousness. Huh, where have we ever heard that before folks? Perhaps one of his handlers has arrived on the scene from the realm of the damned.

Blogger R Webfoot July 25, 2018 1:57 PM  

@84
That is, I think, the essence of where Jordan Peterson's philosophy/theology went wrong.
"God is dead," he said, and mourned. But then he read too much Jung and evo-psych, and his despair turned to exultation with a grand AHA! "God was inside us the whole time! And you can talk to Him with mushrooms!"

That, really, is the crux of it. We are evolved to find truth, we are evolved to pursue meaning, that is his Eureka. I believe that is the most consistent explanation of the ways he goes most wrong, apart from his anti-identity issues. Truth, to him, is when everything seems to align and your conscious looks at how it fits together and goes "WHOA!" - because, to JP, your mind's process of looking at things and going "WHOA!" is evolutionarily selected towards meaning. "Those two are the same thing!" he said to himself. "WHOA!"

A Christian perspective, and specifically an aware Christian perspective, will have none of that. Satan is the prince of this world; it is no great stretch to surmise that the power of genuine evil to wreak havoc on mortals extends to the perverse incentives in the selection process.

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