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Tuesday, August 28, 2018

Aristotle and the Holocaust

Ron Unz boldly casts considerable doubt on the central article of the globalist catechism:
Another obvious matter casts further doubt upon the historical quality of those five immensely thick volumes of standard Holocaust narrative, which together occupy nearly a linear foot on my bookshelves. For prosecutors of any crime, establishing a plausible motive is certainly an important goal, and in the case of the Jewish Holocaust, these authors would seem to have an easy task at hand. Hitler and his German colleagues had always claimed that the Jews overwhelmingly dominated Bolshevik Communism, and much of their struggle against the former was in order to prevent further bloody deeds of the latter. So surely devoting an early chapter or so to describing this central Nazi doctrine would provide an airtight explanation of what drove the Nazis to their fiendish slaughters, rendering fully explicable the horrifying events that would occupy the remainder of their text.

Yet oddly enough, an examination of their indexes for “Bolsheviks,” “Communism,” and all variants reveals almost no discussion of this important issue. Goldhagen’s 1996 book provides just a couple of short sentences spread across his 600 pages, and the other works seem to contain virtually nothing at all. Since all of these Holocaust books almost totally avoid Hitler’s self-declared motive for his anti-Jewish actions, they are forced to desperately search for alternative explanations, seeking clues buried deep within the German past or turning to psychanalytical speculations or perhaps deciding that what they describe as the greatest massacre in all human history was undertaken out of sheer Nazi wickedness.

The obvious reason for this glaring omission is that the authors are constructing a morality-play in which the Jews must be portrayed as absolutely blameless victims, and even hinting at their role in the numerous Communist atrocities that long preceded the rise of the Third Reich might cause readers to consider both sides of the issue. When purported historians go to absurd lengths to hide such glaring facts, they unmask themselves as propagandists, and we must be very cautious about trusting their reliability and candor in all other matters, whether great or small.

Indeed, the issue of Communism raises a far larger matter, one having rather touchy implications. Sometimes two simple compounds are separately inert, but when combined together may possess tremendous explosive force. From my introductory history classes and readings in high school, certain things had always seemed glaringly obvious to me even if the conclusions remained unmentionable, and I once assumed they were just as apparent to most others as well. But over the years I have begun to wonder whether perhaps this might not be correct.

Back in those late Cold War days, the death toll of innocent civilians from the Bolshevik Revolution and the first two decades of the Soviet Regime was generally reckoned at running well into the tens of millions when we include the casualties of the Russian Civil War, the government-induced famines, the Gulag, and the executions. I’ve heard that these numbers have been substantially revised downwards to perhaps as little as twenty million or so, but no matter. Although determined Soviet apologists may dispute such very large figures, they have always been part of the standard narrative history taught within the West.

Meanwhile, all historians know perfectly well that the Bolshevik leaders were overwhelmingly Jewish, with three of the five revolutionaries Lenin named as his plausible successors coming from that background. Although only around 4% of Russia’s population was Jewish, a few years ago Vladimir Putin stated that Jews constituted perhaps 80-85% of the early Soviet government, an estimate fully consistent with the contemporaneous claims of Winston Churchill, Times of London correspondent Robert Wilton, and the officers of American Military Intelligence. Recent books by Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Yuri Slezkine, and others have all painted a very similar picture. And prior to World War II, Jews remained enormously over-represented in the Communist leadership, especially dominating the Gulag administration and the top ranks of the dreaded NKVD.

Both of these simple facts have been widely accepted in America throughout my entire lifetime. But combine them together with the relatively tiny size of worldwide Jewry, around 16 million prior to World War II, and the inescapable conclusion is that in per capita terms Jews were the greatest mass-murderers of the twentieth century, holding that unfortunate distinction by an enormous margin and with no other nationality coming even remotely close. And yet, by the astonishing alchemy of Hollywood, the greatest killers of the last one hundred years have somehow been transmuted into being seen as the greatest victims, a transformation so seemingly implausible that future generations will surely be left gasping in awe.

Today’s American Neocons are just as heavily Jewish as were the Bolsheviks of a hundred years ago, and they have greatly benefited from the political immunity provided by this totally bizarre inversion of historical reality. Partly as a consequence of their media-fabricated victimhood status, they have managed to seize control over much of our political system, especially our foreign policy, and have spent the last few years doing their utmost to foment an absolutely insane war with nuclear-armed Russia. If they do manage to achieve that unfortunate goal, they will surely outdo the very impressive human body-count racked up by their ethnic ancestors, perhaps even by an order-of-magnitude or more.
More importantly, the American Neocons ARE the Bolsheviks, specifically, the Trotsky faction. But everyone here already knew that.

However, Ron Unz's iconoclastic piece got me thinking about the logic of the historical situation as we know it and some of the anomalies that have proven so difficult to resolve in a satisfying manner, massive anomalies that have led to criminal accusations of Holocaust denial on the one hand and charges of shameless historical mythmaking on the other. But what if both parties are basically correct concerning their primary points of emphasis? What happens if, in the spirit of theoretical skepticism, we simply apply straightforward logic to the facts as we observe them to be.
  • Major Premise: A very large quantity of Jews were killed in the 1936 to 1945 time frame.
  • Minor Premise: The meticulously bureaucratic Germans, for whom historians possess a tremendous quantity of historical documents related to the WWII era, do not appear to have kept any records of any of the many aspects of the logistical and operative decisions and actions required for the major premise, nor did they have the motive or the opportunity to thoroughly eliminate those records. 
  • Conclusion: Someone other than the Germans killed most of those Jews.
Now, who could that someone else be? It would have to be someone who was alive in the relevant time period and possessed the following attributes:
  • Access to Eastern Europe and Russia.
  • A willingness to commit mass murder.
  • Control over large-scale military and logistical forces.
  • Significant influence over Western government figures and the media.
  • A master of propaganda.
  • Lethal hostility to Jewish Bolshevists.
  • An expert at playing "let's you and him fight".
Can you think of anyone who might fit that bill? And recall that it was not until just eight years ago when it was finally confirmed the massacre of 22,000 Poles in 1940 that took place in the Katyn Forest was approved by the Soviet Politburo and was committed by Soviet forces, rather than by the Nazis as had been previously believed.

From Infogalactic:

Following the Soviet invasion of Poland, Stalin began a policy of relocating Jews to the Jewish Autonomous Oblast and other parts of Siberia. Throughout the war, similar movements were executed in regions considered vulnerable to Nazi invasion with the various target ethnic groups of the Nazi genocide.

Doesn't that sound a little... conveniently coincidental? Was Stalin relocating these target ethnic groups out of the goodness of his otherwise black heart? And how did he know those ethnic groups were at risk during the 22 months between September 1939 and June 1941, given that the Nazi invasion of 1941 is supposed to have taken him by complete surprise?

Now, I'm not saying that this hypothetical Soviet Holocaust was actually the historical case. I'm not a historian, I wasn't there, and I have absolutely no idea what actually happened. I'm simply pointing out that logic suggests one possible explanation for the fact that detailed documents capable of definitively settling the historical account of the Holocaust once and for all to everyone's satisfaction have not yet been found is because historians and scholars have been looking in the wrong place all along. This conclusion would also explain why so many Stalin-era documents are still sealed and kept strictly off-limits from researchers despite the fall of the Soviet Union. What other historical secret would merit such keeping even after so many years besides alien contact or the uncorrupted body of Jesus Christ of Nazareth?

And finally, a Soviet Holocaust might also explain the insane neocon obsession with going to war with Russia. Are they really that bitter about the Tsars, who vanished into history more than 100 years ago? Or is it possible they are seeking revenge for a more recent historical offense?

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176 Comments:

Blogger szopen August 28, 2018 11:18 AM  

A small anecdote, which I hope will provide an insight into double-thinking going on in communist times:

My father once went to a library in larger city and asked a book about Katyń. Immedietely they went for someone more important (can't remember the details) who then inquired my father, most severely, with a very serious and grave tone, why he asked about books about Katyń, My father innocently said what do you mean why, I just want to know about suffering of Belarussian peasants under Nazi occupation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatyn_massacre).

"I know you don't want to know about Khatyn."

"Why?"

"Don't ask stupid questions."

"What do you mean?"

"Don't make trouble. Go away."

One of the reasons I hate communism.

Blogger CM August 28, 2018 11:21 AM  

This is enlightening.

Blogger Ralph Markham August 28, 2018 11:24 AM  

Wow. To read something like this in my lifetime. Obligatory "big, if true" but I know I'm not the only one who grew up feeling the Holocaust narrative was a bit heavy-handed.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 28, 2018 11:26 AM  

The REEEEEEEEE can be seen from space on this one. I hope Ron is prepared to be unpersoned for his heresy.

Blogger Spud August 28, 2018 11:32 AM  

I'm pretty sure everyone knew the NKVD were the ones that pulled off the Katyn Massacre at the time. The Germans were the ones that reported the bodies and I'm almost sure the Red Cross confirmed that the Russians did it at the time. The Allies simply denied it though they knew the truth. Russia was too strong of an ally to lose (not to mention the Soviets invaded Poland from the east shortly after the Germans invaded it from the west, yet no war declared on them).

Remember that the Nazis "confessed" to the Kaytn massacre during the Nuremberg trials. I wonder what else they were persuaded to confessed to that they didn't actually do.

Blogger veryfunnyminion August 28, 2018 11:35 AM  

So Stalin was seeking revenge for the murdered Romanovs?

That would make for a cool story.

Blogger FUBARwest August 28, 2018 11:37 AM  

That's a lot to think about. Another lie we've been fed for most of our lies. I'm missing something, why would Stalin want to kill so many Jews when so much of the Soviet Union were Jews? Different factions within the same system or Stalin won that particular civil war and was finishing off the survivors?

Any one here have any book recommendations to find out more accurate history than what we were told?

Also, it's really weird how similar ALL of these faux realities all seem to operate the same way. No actual records or data supporting the proposition(evolution, global warming, now I find out there are no records for the 6 million Jews at all, I'm young) but you are demonized and outcast for questioning the narrative.

Blogger veryfunnyminion August 28, 2018 11:38 AM  

Actually, given the current anti-Russia hysteria I could see this gaining legs. Trump and Putin and muh Holocaust!

We have yet to reach peak Trump derangement syndrome. I'm starting doubt there is such a thing.

Blogger szopen August 28, 2018 11:38 AM  

Spud wrote:
Remember that the Nazis "confessed" to the Kaytn massacre during the Nuremberg trials. I wonder what else they were persuaded to confessed to that they didn't actually do.


First time I've heard about that. I know Soviets wanted to accused Nazis about Katyń, but allies refused. Link please?

Blogger Azimus August 28, 2018 11:39 AM  

I don't think it's necessary to argue the Nazi Holocaust false in order to argue the Soviet Holocaust true. It may be the case or may not, but it is an unnecessary distraction.

Blogger FUBARwest August 28, 2018 11:43 AM  

"The Allies simply denied it though they knew the truth. Russia was too strong of an ally to lose (not to mention the Soviets invaded Poland from the east shortly after the Germans invaded it from the west, yet no war declared on them)."

All that is true but I'm pretty sure we've found out that FDR had communists in his cabinet. I think that had a bigger impact on us not going to war with Russia and explains Communisms expansion throughout the 20th century.

This information is big. How are God's chosen responsible for so many deaths?

Blogger CM August 28, 2018 11:45 AM  

Wow. To read something like this in my lifetime. Obligatory "big, if true" but I know I'm not the only one who grew up feeling the Holocaust narrative was a bit heavy-handed.

I spent my childhood watching holocaust movies and the biggest lesson I learned is you shouldn't treat people that way.

As an adult, I have learned that was the wrong lesson I was supposed to get - you shouldn't do that to Jews.

It is the greatest tragedy in human history because of what it did to Jews. That kind of arrogance has made me a lot less sympathetic over the last couple years as engagement with Jews has increased.

Blogger Brian S August 28, 2018 11:46 AM  

It never made much sense to me (once I finally considered it independently) that the Germans would spend the immense resources and time, rounding people up, moving them to camps, shaving their heads and dressing them up in prison uniforms, and feeding them (however poorly)... All while getting their asses kicked from multiple directions, running out of fuel for their vehicles and consripting children for the front lines.

Blogger Shimshon August 28, 2018 11:51 AM  

Vox, wasn't Soviet role in the Katyn Massacre confirmed in 1990? It doesn't make a difference in your argument.

Blogger Salt August 28, 2018 11:53 AM  

Germans,... do not appear to have kept any records of any of the many aspects of the logistical and operative decisions

"I don't think it's necessary to argue the Nazi Holocaust false in order to argue the Soviet Holocaust true.

The Wannsee Conference record, providing it is legit, is the only source of such decisions I can think of. It may come down to a simple fact of scale. If the Russians knew what the Germans were up to, given the relocation of western Jews to the east, it would be easy enough to piggy back on that. Plausible deniability?

Blogger Whitecloak August 28, 2018 11:54 AM  

This could explain the hard laws in Europe about daring to question narrative.

I wonder just how angry the German people would be if the original sin by which they have been conditioned for suicide was not as described?

Blogger Spud August 28, 2018 11:55 AM  

szopen,

https://infogalactic.com/info/Katyn_massacre#At_the_Nuremberg_trials

They were unable to convict, but they did get a confession. He later recanted and stated he was forced to confess. Many of the defendant at the Nuremberg trials recanted confessions for the same reason. The Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court Harlan Stone stated that the Nuremberg trials were a fraud to the Germans.

Blogger Matamoros August 28, 2018 11:58 AM  

Vox, your hypothesis is astonishing; yet a fresh way of looking at the problem.

If this is so, think about the Germans demanding the "reparations" taken from them since 1945 for holocaust survivors and the State of Israel. Boggles the mind.

Blogger VD August 28, 2018 11:59 AM  

I'm missing something, why would Stalin want to kill so many Jews when so much of the Soviet Union were Jews? Different factions within the same system or Stalin won that particular civil war and was finishing off the survivors?

Three of Lenin's proposed successors were Jews. Trotsky was a Jew. And who would know better how dangerous the Jewish Bolshevists could be than Stalin?

Given Hitler's well-known animosity towards them, he might have even used that as cover for his own actions. He was certainly smart enough and ruthless enough to be capable of doing so.

Blogger justaguy August 28, 2018 12:04 PM  

I am not a historian, but isn't there enough evidence of trains and who were running the concentration camps, the evidence from the survivors, the final solution and other documents that were shown at the trials to show major German involvement and direction? I mean can't we take facts that seem indisputable from the many witnesses/documents such as the round-up of jews and others, the placing in concentration camps while the Germans were ruling the territory--and infer the rest. The stories and films of the concentration camps when they were liberated, and the documentation that was done-- all on German ruled territory seems to put any logical change to the major story at odd with facts. We know when and where many of the deaths occurred-- when Germany was in a death struggle with the Russians and on German controlled territory. How can we logically come up with anything else?

Any theory has to overcome the films, the interviews, the thing seen by the GIs who liberated the camps as well as the testimony from both the Germans and the victims in the camps. The whole point of the documentation was to ensure the world and succeeding generations knew what happened as a warning. Any new theory other than quibbling about the exact number lost and such has to overcome a huge amount of evidence preserved for generations. I’ll keep an open mind to any theory, but there needs to be a lot more evidence. Right now that huge weight of evidence is all on the side that is shown in the many holocaust memorials. There is a reason holocaust deniers are placed right next to flat earthers and those that still think the earth is the center of the universe.

Now things such as the motivations of the ruling elite in Germany and such may require much more research and become murkier as there is not the same weight of evidence on why--but we still have Mein Kampf don't we?

Blogger Станислав Бартошевич August 28, 2018 12:07 PM  

Here's the problem with the Holocaust Denial. Insisting that one of the most thoroughly documented events in history (including surviving the German documentation which is here alleged to be nonexistent; despite Germans in fact possessing a crystal-clear reason to dispose of papers implicating both them as a regime and many of them personally) did not in fact happen, means that we effectively and totally reject the entire notion of "history", the entire idea of ever knowing anything about the past beyond our own personal memory. And replace it with telling whatever narrative is convenient for our current purposes.

But even if you don't care bout the truth, like, at all, Holocaust Denial is just about the shittiest possible hill to die on. Accepting Holocaust Denial inevitably means that, just as a prerequisite to siding with you, any American patriot must admit that his country was not only wrong, but straight-up evil. Who would accept that without being forced to, say, aftern an unambiguous military defeat? (When (((libtards))) in Russia tried to push "Communism was pure evil" narrative too hard in 1990s, they provoked a backlash strong enough that in combination with their looting of the country it nearly produced a red revival, even though just a few years ago everyone was sick to death of the Sovier regime.) "South will rise again" types?

Blogger LES August 28, 2018 12:07 PM  

Just in time: another holocaust movie, "Operation Finale", opens this week!

Blogger Jeff aka Orville August 28, 2018 12:12 PM  

At this stage it's "question everything" and "nobody knows anything". This is eye-opening.

The whole point of the documentation was to ensure the world and succeeding generations knew what happened as a warning.

Which accomplished absolutely nothing. Didn't deter the Chinese or the Khmer. It's only observable value is as a propaganda tool to guilt the masses towards a preset conclusion.

Blogger Robert What? August 28, 2018 12:13 PM  

All you have to do is ask for evidence of the Holocaust to realize that it is a hoax. Asking for evidence (other than the anecdotal stories of "survivors") is absolutely verboten. If it were not a hoax they would invite that kind of enquiry.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 28, 2018 12:14 PM  

Azimus wrote:I don't think it's necessary to argue the Nazi Holocaust false in order to argue the Soviet Holocaust true. It may be the case or may not, but it is an unnecessary distraction.

We know a lot of people died in the labor camps. Germans were going hungry, and the prisoners were probably hungrier. Even if the Nazis didn't set out to kill the prisoners, keeping them alive wasn't a top priority.

FUBARwest wrote:How are God's chosen responsible for so many deaths?

Are the people who founded a religion based on rejecting the Messiah God's chosen? Some of today's Christians are descendants of the faithful Hebrews who accepted their Messiah 2,000 years ago. They are God's Chosen.

God winnowed Abraham's seed many times, including in 70AD. Today's Jews have rejected the God of the Patriarchs, and have been tossed out with the chaff.

Blogger Spud August 28, 2018 12:15 PM  

justaguy,

There is way to much to information to place in a single post so I'll be brief. No western ally discovered concentration camp was found to be an extermination camp. The extermination camps were ONLY found by the Soviets and the allies were not allowed to investigate them.

At Dachau a doctor performed scores of autopsies and not one person was killed due to gassing. The major killer was Typhus. Starvation was big too because the supply lines were cut so no food could get to the camps. The trains that were shot up leading to the camp filled with the bodies of prisoners has been proven to have been attacked with English aircraft ammunition.

Too many statement have already been proven false such as human skin lamps, gas showers, soap made from Jews, etc, etc. People were hanged due to these false statement, convicted at the Nuremberg trials. This isn't to say the Nazi's were innocent of war crimes (see the Einsatzgruppen) but shows that many historical "facts" were actually not true.

Blogger Jeff aka Orville August 28, 2018 12:16 PM  

@21 This premise doesn't deny a holocaust, but calls into question the who, what and where of it. It seems the Nazi's were partially, but not fully responsible.

Blogger pyrrhus August 28, 2018 12:18 PM  

@19 Stalin knew that he was surrounded by enemies in the Party, of whom Trotsky was the most visible..He began decimating them in the '20s, with all of the Internationalists ultimately ending up in the gulag or unmarked graves..Stalin's excuse was that counter-revolutionaries in the Party were the greatest danger, but by that Stalin meant greatest danger to him...And Stalin was certainly right about that.

Blogger Ingot9455 August 28, 2018 12:18 PM  

On threads like this I routinely bring up the work of Raul Hilberg, the German researcher who had access to all the paperwork in the 1960s when it was fresh snugs did all the counting.
There's plenty of documentation of trains and so on. Numbers on the Western front are meticulous, numbers on the Eastern are estimates of mass graves as the Germans are filling then in.

Blogger Jeff aka Orville August 28, 2018 12:19 PM  

@28 It's really interesting how Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini all turned away from the internationalists.

Blogger Colin Flaherty's baby momma August 28, 2018 12:21 PM  

Frauds within frauds. They can't help themselves. It is their nature.

SIX MILLION JEWS 1915-1938
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dda-0Q_XUhk

Former Israeli Minister Shulamit Aloni
"Anti-semitic- it's a trick; we always use it... in Europe we bring up the Holocaust and the suffering of the jews to justify everything we do."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0kWAqZxJVE
.
.
Times of Israel 2012/07/13
Claims Conference employees managed to steal more than $57 million from the German government in the name of Holocaust survivors.
Calling the controls in place to prevent fraud “reasonably adequate,” Berman said the deception was as impossible to anticipate as the attacks of 9/11. The disclosure could sully the whole Jewish effort to recoup compensation for Jewish suffering at the hands of the Nazis. At the Claims Conference, where the fraud went on for at least 17 years.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/can-greg-schneider-steer-the-claims-conference-past-unspeakable-fraud/

NY Times 2010/11/10
Holocaust Fund Was Defrauded
Many of the stories were works of fiction or embellishment of facts… Birth dates were changed so people would appear to have been alive during World War II; anecdotes about surviving inhumane conditions in a Nazi-occupied territory were repeated in multiple applications. The man who submitted paperwork detailing his suffering as a 13-year-old used forged government documents.
When Mr. Bharara was asked whether the thousands of others involved in the fraud could be charged, he said, “the investigation remains open.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/10/nyregion/10holocaust.html
https://archive.is/oBbGr

CBC 2012/04/26
Holocaust fraud probe leads to charge against Canadian accused of being part of conspiracy to steal millions. The FBI determined a massive fraud was at play and that it had been going on since the 1990s. The investigation is still underway, but it is estimated that at least $60 million has been siphoned from the fund. The very people who had listened to the stories of survivors had massaged the details and used fake names to submit claims of their own.
www.cbc.ca/news/canada/holocaust-fraud-probe-leads-to-charge-against-toronto-woman-1.1130337

Blogger szopen August 28, 2018 12:21 PM  

Spud wrote:szopen,

https://infogalactic.com/info/Katyn_massacre#At_the_Nuremberg_trials

They were unable to convict, but they did get a confession. He later recanted and stated he was forced to confess. Many of the defendant at the Nuremberg trials recanted confessions for the same reason. The Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court Harlan Stone stated that the Nuremberg trials were a fraud to the Germans.


So not "German at Nurnberg", but one German tortured by Soviets.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 28, 2018 12:22 PM  

Nationalism even stronger than Communism?

Blogger VD August 28, 2018 12:23 PM  

Any theory has to overcome the films, the interviews, the thing seen by the GIs who liberated the camps as well as the testimony from both the Germans and the victims in the camps.

That's kind of the point. In the absence of the Soviet hypothesis and German documentation, the Holocaust deniers have overcome it very easily. Hence the criminalization of skepticism.

despite Germans in fact possessing a crystal-clear reason to dispose of papers implicating both them as a regime and many of them personally

First, they didn't. You realize that the regime was led by people who were a) proud of their acts and b) committed suicide, right? And second, if you know anything about German bureaucracy, there is NO WAY they could possibly so thoroughly eliminated every last vestige of such a massive program in such a short period of time under such intense military pressure.

Blogger Nate August 28, 2018 12:27 PM  

I have always thought it was odd that all of the actual death camps were discovered by the soviet army.

Blogger Nate August 28, 2018 12:29 PM  

Also.. GIs didn't liberate any of the death camps. The concentration camps we liberated were not extermination facilities.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 28, 2018 12:33 PM  

Станислав Бартошевич wrote:Insisting that one of the most thoroughly documented events in history (including surviving the German documentation which is here alleged to be nonexistent; despite Germans in fact possessing a crystal-clear reason to dispose of papers implicating both them as a regime and many of them personally) did not in fact happen, means that we effectively and totally reject the entire notion of "history",
"the most thoroughly documented events in history"
"the German documentation... nonexistent; despite Germans in fact possessing a crystal-clear reason to dispose of papers"

Make up your mind. Either it's one of the most thoroughly documented events in history, or the Germans destroyed all the documents. You don't get to claim both.

In plain fact, it's not at all documented, and claiming that the Germans just destroyed all of and only the extermination camp documents is flatly ridiculous special pleading.


If you have an argument, bring it. This is just debate by sputtering.

Blogger dienw August 28, 2018 12:36 PM  

FUBARwest wrote:

Any one here have any book recommendations to find out more accurate history than what we were told?


http://www.unz.com/book/john_beaty__the-iron-curtain-over-america/

Blogger LES August 28, 2018 12:40 PM  

"Any one here have any book recommendations to find out more accurate history than what we were told?"

David Irving

Blogger FUBARwest August 28, 2018 12:41 PM  

Thanks

Blogger Spud August 28, 2018 12:41 PM  

szopen wrote:So not "German at Nurnberg", but one German tortured by Soviets.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Germans were accused at Nuremberg, a German confessed to the crime, there was insufficient evidence so it was thrown out by western allies. My point was they actually got someone to confess to a crime they didn't commit (from what we know now, still about 34 volumes of documents sealed concerning Kaytn), many other Germans confessed to crimes, later recanting, stating they were tortured in order to get that confession. To this day those confessions are still held as evidence.

It makes you think.

Blogger Alphaeus August 28, 2018 12:46 PM  

" Holocaust Denial"

It's stupid to call this "Holocaust Denial" because it is not denying the Holocaust, it is putting the blame where it belongs, on Stalin and the communist scum bags, instead of on the Germans.

The more one knows about the sordid history of WWII and the way the so called "Democracies" handed the world over to Stalin and his communist scum bag ilk, the more one sees the plausibility of this explanation, that it was Stalin and the commies who murdered all those Jews wholesale, not the Germans.

Blogger Gen. Kong August 28, 2018 12:50 PM  

For those who might not be following him, Unz has come out with several detailed articles about the JQ which is extremely unusual for someone of his ethnic origin, including a long one in which the issues of pedophilia (the next 'civil rights' push, btw) and child sacrifice are explored. Another important discovery he's made as part of his archiving work is how many authors and important historical writings have been completely memory-holed by the globopedo elites and the various media corporations they completely own and control. Most of his articles are grouped under the series 'American Pravda'.

Hope Unz is reading this blog. The question posed by VD is an extremely interesting one. Also add in the fact that Stalin purged the Trotskyites starting in the mid-1930s starting with the assassination of Kirov in Leningrad. While the mass graves of the 1918-1933 period (painted in the west as an era of enlightenment and progress) were largely filled with Christians and others deemed as counter-revolutionaries, the purges of the mid to late 1930s resulted in a large number of Jews, the vast majority of whom sided with Trotsky, being sent to the mass graves or the gulag. Mercador's dispatch of Trotsky in 1940 was merely the crowning achievement.

Blogger LES August 28, 2018 12:56 PM  

Is the narrative changing to justify the Zionist/Neocon imperative that the US go to war with Russia?

Blogger Gen. Kong August 28, 2018 12:56 PM  

" Holocaust Denial"

It's stupid to call this "Holocaust Denial" because it is not denying the Holocaust, it is putting the blame where it belongs, on Stalin and the communist scum bags, instead of on the Germans.


That's another interesting point in favor of what VD implies here. In France (possibly in other okrugs of the EUSSR as well), one can be arrested and jailed for HD for mentioning the mass murders of the communists - because "minimizing holocaust".

Blogger Looking Glass August 28, 2018 12:57 PM  

Post 21 before an obvious shill showed up. Not bad.

On the topic in the post, they've been revising the death toll for Jews in WW2 down for a while, after peak Holocaust Remembrance a few years back, but I believe the problem has always been having enough Jews in the German controlled area to have anyone left to tell the stories about it. If 6 million died, wouldn't a majority have had to be living in the territory on the German Eastern Front?

While we have the stuff like the Holocaust of 6 million Jews from WW1, the fable making about the Holocaust and brutal attacks on anyone even questioning the over-the-top stories leaves a huge gaps in our knowledge of the period. There's obvious propaganda value in hiding the slaughter of Russians (and others within the Soviet domains) at the behest of a Jewish Elite that controlled the early parts of the Soviet Union, but the reality is no one would actually care in the West. Mao's got the body count crown and you can hop on a plane to China for a tour of the Great Wall today.

There is the Narratives and there is the Truth, and, with regards to the Holocaust, they are clearly at odds. Given the recent discussion about Operation Barbarossa as a preemptive move by the Nazi leadership, after they'd been hoodwinked by the Soviets, it is fully conceivable that the Soviets, under Stalin, exacted "ethnic revenge" against a faction that won temporary control after the Russian Civil War. Moving the ethnic group into the location where you are planning to launch a massive invasion is a brilliant way to cover up wholesale slaughter. It ends up being little different than what the Hutu did in Rwanda. (Hutus killed 500k+ in 3 months. Russians are a tad more efficient at most things.)

if we think of the Global Communists as a continuum of "learning to slaughter a population", and you start in the post-Russian Civil War period, all the way through to the Killing Fields, there's something of an Efficiency Increase each step of the way. However, there would probably need to be some increasing event after the Holodomor but before the Great Leap Forward. A planned & executed mass slaughter event in the 1940s would make sense, bringing in experience with directed slaughter. Katyn Forest would end up as a testing ground for the events to come, in that continuum analysis. This is casting Systematic Slaughter as a technological function and filling in a missing step, but we know the Communists were Internationalist in nature, sharing information among their factions was a constant. Given the flow of information & training, there's plenty of room for the development of systematic slaughter as a tool by the Communists, likely patterned after the effects WW1 had on European populations and targeted at population groups that would be resistant to the imperial desires of the local Communist leadership.

Blogger Joe Blowe August 28, 2018 12:58 PM  

Ingot9455 wrote:On threads like this I routinely bring up the work of Raul Hilberg,

The four hour documentary "One Third of the Holocaust" totally demolishes Raul Hilberg and the official Holocaust FAKE NEWS narrative. Its floating around there on the interwebs despite the intense censorship of it.
You'll know we've one when school kids are show that video in class and celebrate Senator Joseph McCarthy Day instead of Martin Luther King Day.

Blogger szopen August 28, 2018 12:58 PM  

Spud wrote:szopen wrote:So not "German at Nurnberg", but one German tortured by Soviets.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Germans were accused at Nuremberg, a German confessed to the crime


He confessed while being in Soviet hands, and "His confession was full of absurdities, and thus he was not used as a Soviet prosecution witness during the Nuremberg trials. " (that's from infogalactic article you have linked).

The fact that a German was forced by SOVIETS to confess is not an argument that western allies were forcing Germans to confess.

Blogger R Webfoot August 28, 2018 1:06 PM  

"many other Germans confessed to crimes, later recanting, stating they were tortured in order to get that confession. To this day those confessions are still held as evidence."

It can be pretty fun, reading those confessions with a cynical eye. I have a soft spot for the one where the German executioners kept missing at point blank range so they rigged up a pedal-powered skull smashing machine. I looked up the reference in the Library of Congress and the quote is legit.

Blogger Peter Gent August 28, 2018 1:28 PM  

Ingot9455 wrote:On threads like this I routinely bring up the work of Raul Hilberg, the German researcher who had access to all the paperwork in the 1960s when it was fresh snugs did all the counting.
Being a Jew himself, that makes his research and conclusions suspect, which I noticed you avoided in mentioning.

I doubt this side of the Kingdom I will ever know what really happened concerning most historical events to any real degree of accuracy.

Blogger Crew August 28, 2018 1:29 PM  

I imagine that Merkel would know about the Soviet aspect of the Holohoax.

Blogger pnq8787 August 28, 2018 1:35 PM  

Stalin was right?

Blogger Looking Glass August 28, 2018 1:35 PM  

Casting the post-Russian Civil War period in terms of nations, it's fair to say the Russian Empire was taken over by an extremely small minority nation for about a decade, but, through the moves of Stalin, that small minority nation's rule was replaced by members of the majority population. Taken in that context, and given the mass scale killing of the local population, shouldn't we assume that the Majority would genocide the Minority that acted that way?

Beyond Stalin wanting no factions standing in his way, there would be a very large supply of very animated "help" in carrying out retribution action. Thus you have a dictator with the Means, Will and Reason to carry out such a mass killing, but also with a group of commanders more than willing to carry out such a slaughter. We can look at the Holodomor in the early 1930s, a mass killing with limited strategic value to Moscow, and historians never ask "who else would Stalin kill to further his own ends?". Complete elimination of the Bolshevik faction makes logical sense, so how would that be carried out? It would require the near extermination of Jews within Soviet-controlled territory.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Second_world_war_europe_1941_map_de.png

Here's a map of Europe in 1941. Huh, interesting, that.

Maybe the better question, knowing the majority nation background of the Bolsheviks, is why didn't Stalin wipe out the Jews in the Soviet territories after he established complete control of the State? He killed practically everyone else, in mass, as a means of control. A return of the Bolsheviks would be one of his central concerns, which is part of why he had so many of them purged. If Stalin & commanders would do that to their potential rivals & would slaughter non-Russian populations, what would have stopped the USSR from removing the entire Jew faction from its territory? It would seem strange that they wouldn't have. Unless they did and we just blame a lot of the deaths on the wrong country.

Blogger Zander Stander August 28, 2018 1:42 PM  

Yep, like the competing stories of mass electrocutions in water when still entrained/ mass live steamings until the narrative congealed around Zyklon B. Like bad scriptwriters testing out plot lines.

Blogger SirHamster August 28, 2018 1:47 PM  

Ominous Cowherd wrote:FUBARwest wrote:How are God's chosen responsible for so many deaths?

Are the people who founded a religion based on rejecting the Messiah God's chosen? Some of today's Christians are descendants of the faithful Hebrews who accepted their Messiah 2,000 years ago. They are God's Chosen.

God winnowed Abraham's seed many times, including in 70AD. Today's Jews have rejected the God of the Patriarchs, and have been tossed out with the chaff.


That was a chilling fact, and it should be far more known amongst the Christian church. How well it proves out Jesus's judgement:

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Lies, murder ...

Anti-Semitism would become a badge of honor, not shame.

Blogger Gen. Kong August 28, 2018 1:51 PM  

FUBARwest wrote:
That's a lot to think about. Another lie we've been fed for most of our lies. I'm missing something, why would Stalin want to kill so many Jews when so much of the Soviet Union were Jews? Different factions within the same system or Stalin won that particular civil war and was finishing off the survivors?

There were almost two civil wars in the USSR between 1918 and 1940. The first is the one which you learn about in any Russian history class (probably a regurgitated Soviet narrative in western universities by now) between the 'whites' (a collection of liberals and anti-Bolshevik socialists plus a smattering of monarchists) and the 'reds' (Bolsheviks and ethnic allies like Latvians), which was basically over by 1922 if you count the invasion of Poland by the Red Army and the subsequent Soviet-Polish war. The second one was more of a 'cold civil war' which started with with Lenin's death in 1924. As noted by Unz, Stalin was not Lenin's chosen successor (Trotsky was). Stalin nevertheless had garnered considerable support within the party apparatus and was not going to be easily removed so the power-struggle commenced between the factions of Bukharin (Right opposition), Trotsky (Left opposition) and Stalin (Center). Stalin shifted his support between the so-called right and left, both of whom were internationalist in nature. By 1927 Trotsky's faction was defeated (Trotsky fled USSR in 1929) so Stalin turned his guns on Bukharin & Co. - his allies in defeating Trotsky. With the Great terror starting a couple of years later, the remaining supporters of both Trotsky and Bukharin were liquidated.

Blogger Doktor Jeep August 28, 2018 1:55 PM  

Well we have, in light of false flag anti-semitic attacks done by Jews, and the deplatforming actions of the left - and THE WHOLE THING is one big neocon op - yes even "the left" - we have always said that Jews make the best Nazis.

Blogger Spud August 28, 2018 2:26 PM  

He confessed while being in Soviet hands, and "His confession was full of absurdities, and thus he was not used as a Soviet prosecution witness during the Nuremberg trials. " (that's from infogalactic article you have linked).

The fact that a German was forced by SOVIETS to confess is not an argument that western allies were forcing Germans to confess.


I never claimed that western allies were forcing Germans to confess. The Soviets sure did though.

Blogger Desdichado August 28, 2018 2:30 PM  

I was especially struck by the last two paragraphs of Unz's article. When I was younger, I never took literally the prophecies in Zechariah and Revelations, etc. that suggested that when the Biblical Battle of Armageddon happens that literally ALL of the nations of the earth would be arrayed against Israel. Now, I'm not so sure.

It's one thing to have faith in prophecy that yet seems far away and vague. It's quite another to see events starting to lay themselves out in such a way that the fulfillment of prophecy made many, many centuries ago now seems inevitable.

Blogger Lazarus August 28, 2018 2:41 PM  

The number of deaths at Auschwitz has changed drastically over the past 75 years. The Nazis were famous for keeping detailed records, so why are the number of deaths at Auschwitz an estimate that keeps changing?

At the Nuremberg IMT, the German war criminals were charged with killing 4 million prisoners at the three camps known as Auschwitz I (the main camp), Auschwitz II (Birkenau) and Auschwitz III (Monowitz). What was this figure based upon?

The charge against the Germans at Nuremberg was based on a document written on May 6, 1945 by the Soviet Union that was accepted into evidence by the Nuremberg IMT although there was no proof whatsoever given in this document that 4 million people had been killed. The Soviet figure of 4 million was based on the estimated capacity of the ovens at Auschwitz and Birkenau. The ovens at Birkenau had been removed by the Germans two months before they abandoned the camp, but the Soviets were still able to somehow estimate their capacity.

The Soviets also charged the German war criminals with killing 1.5 million prisoners at Majdanek. That figure has now been reduced to 78,000 by the Majdanek Museum. Out of this number, 59,000 were Jews.

In 1990, the plaques with the figure of 4 million at the International Monument at Birkenau were removed. It was not until 1995 that new plaques were placed at the International Monument with 20 metal plates inscribed in Yiddish, English and all the major languages of Europe; the plaques were set on granite slabs on the steps of the International Monument. The number of deaths at Auschwitz, according to each of the 20 metal plates, is 1.5 million.


But Muh six million.........

Blogger DonReynolds August 28, 2018 3:02 PM  

We all swim in a sea of truth and lies, and the mix is so fine, it is difficult to separate the two. But this is exactly what we must do....separate the sheep from the goats, and the wheat from the chaff....and the act of separation adds value to both and prepares them for their useful purpose.

Credibility is based on truth and rests firmly on knowledge (and information). But knowledge without objectivity invites bias and shading, even if there are no deliberate lies. Normally, we want credible information because we want to be credible ourselves, but this is not always the case. Partisans can be a walking encyclopedia of credible information, but cannot be believed because their goal is not to inform others but to deceive others into believing something that simply is not true.

It is hard for us to believe that a person with a vested interest in the subject could (or would) be objective. We expect them to be biased and they seldom disappoint us in that regard. They intend to mislead us, even if only by a degree, and their own bias gives them motivation to do so.

When someone is known to be compromised by their own agenda, their own bias, and have a loyalty to a cause, then they have a motivation to lie, distort, and deceive. But they do not lie about every single thing. They can be very knowledgeable about the subject matter and know just precisely where to best distort the objective truth.

The truth exists, even if it is hidden, and we can discover it and separate it and guard it from partisan attack.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 28, 2018 3:06 PM  

Think of all the new movies we could get with new bad guys!

Blogger Desdichado August 28, 2018 3:12 PM  

Stg58/Animal Mother wrote:Think of all the new movies we could get with new bad guys!
This time, Indiana Jones takes the Ark of the Covenant from the evil Jews!

Blogger Haxo Angmark August 28, 2018 3:12 PM  

no, VD: Hilberg, in his mag opus DESTRUCTION OF THE EUROPEAN JEWS, intensively and extensively uses Third Reich documents to lay out the entire mechanism of the so-called Holocaust. More interesting is the fact that, despite his claim that the book is about "the Germans not the Jews", he was forced by the evidence to look at Jewish collaboration at every level, from mass behavior to camp sonderkommandos to ghetto police to ghetto regimes, a.k.a. the (80% Zionist) Judenraete. Someone interested in taking this to the next level might also want to look at external Zionist-Nazi collaboration: financing the Reich itself in return for 1930's immigration-to-Palestine deals and then, during the war, systematically blocking every avenue of diaspora Jew escape...except a narrow channel leading to Palestine. The Anglosphere Zionists understood full well that, the bigger the postwar Jew body count, the more grease for the skids of their Israel-in-Palestine project. The preferred body count - as revisionist historian Don Heddesheimer and others have documented - was the mythic "six million" and when (((they))) didn't get it [the actual, documentable Jewish body count is c. 3 million] (((they)))simply lied about it from Nuremburg onward; and, of course, lied about their own role in fomenting the war (via Zionist property Churchill), fomenting the massacre itself, and and got away with it all by saturation control of academic and mass media.

as to Stalin doing the Jew-kill east of the 22 June 1941 jump-off line, there's no evidence of it. What is true: on 22-23 June, all along the front, mass pogroms - popular, spontaneous anti-Jew uprisings broke out all along the line...Kovno, Vilna, Riga, Jassy, and elsewhere - during which c. 20,000 Jews were massacred by the native populations; who, for good and sufficient reason - their own bloody experience of Judeo-communism - hated the Jews. When Heydrich's einsatzgruppen (in fact, initially formatted as small, rear-area security units) arrived, they took careful note of the situation, put a stop to the "wild" pogroms, set up ghettos and, via death squads 90% of whose riflemen were anti-communist natives (Estonians, Lithuanians, Latvians, White Russians, Ukrainians) began to systematically exterminate the Jewish population. That continued through December, 1941, when a combination of weather plus opposition from German civilian and military economic bureaucracies - who wanted to use Jews as forced labor - temporarily slowed the Jew-kill. West of the 22 June line, and vis a vis the labor/death camps in Poland, the same thing happened during 1942-44: the Jew-kill waxed and waned depending on the vicissitudes of the struggle between the military/civilian economic interests and the SS and Police bureacracy. Here too, Brit Zion-via-Churchill intervened twice in order to escalate the Jew-kill: first, by the early June, 1942, hit on Heydrich...and then by the August, 1943, sudden escalation of the air war on Germany into thousand-plane incendiary raids and a systematic massacre of Germany's urban civilian population.

Blogger tublecane August 28, 2018 3:14 PM  

Anyone who believes the official holocaust story and makes fun of conspiracy theories doesn't deserve to be listened to.

The entire intellectual process of holocaustology, near as I can tell, is to recognize that European Jewry was dissolved and to assume the Nazis killed them because reasons. Then they seek for ways it was accomplished, or don't. A surprising number of them don't bother trying to make sense. But all of them act as if we know there's a certain figure for missing Jews, and these missing Jews must have been by -and-large killed deliberately in an industrial fashion of cold bureaucracy, without any actual bureaucratic record left behind.

Holocaust skepticism is hard. Aside from all the propaganda, belief is expected in polite society. "Denial" is a form of blasphemy. I always believed, despite ridiculous eye witness testimony and the talismanic 6 million figure. Until I started to think about where the bodies went. Everyone knows about Katyn, and that's only 20,000. Where are the 11 million corpses? Even if they managed to turn them all into ash, it's strange no one has attempted to locate it.

What also troubled me was how all the supposed instruments of genocide had dual uses or alternative explanations. For instance, so-called death camps were also slave labor camps. Cyclone-B was used for fumigation. Supposed gas chambers were also air-raid shelters. Dead bodies were produced by epidemics, privation, partisan warfare, and so forth, with no way to distinguish them from the Final Solution victims.

My biggest problem has always been how no change in understanding of facts ever budges the narrative. Ever. Oh, none of the German camps were death camps? You don't say. Way fewer than 4 million died at Auschwitz? Hmm. Does that alter the total figure in any way? No? Okay...

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 28, 2018 3:23 PM  

Desdichado,

I was thinking Soviets for Nazis but the other way works too, if the evil Jews are actually megalomaniacal aliens. The real War of the Worlds.

Blogger Alphaeus August 28, 2018 3:42 PM  

"one can be arrested and jailed for HD for mentioning the mass murders of the communists - because "minimizing holocaust""

I was never motivated to question the official Holocaust narrative until I noticed how serious "they" are about criminalizing any questioning of it. Thanks to the criminalization I'm inclined to believe that Stalin and the commies did it, because it makes the criminalization make sense in a sense.

Blogger Jamie-R August 28, 2018 3:51 PM  

Churchill, De Gaulle, & Eisenhower all wrote memoirs about WWII, all would be considered authoritative, not once do either 3 mention anything to do with 'gas chambers', '6 million Jews' or 'genocide'. If it was such an important aspect they all ignored it in their comprehensive works about the war. Which would merit them as Holocaust Deniers in today's world.

Blogger tublecane August 28, 2018 3:54 PM  

@15- The Wannsee Conference is supposed to be a smoking gun for intent to commit the Final Solution. Logistical records of how it was actually carried out is an entirely different matter.

Blogger Nick Siekierski August 28, 2018 3:57 PM  

“The Forgotten Holocaust: The Poles Under German Occupation, 1939-1944” by Richard C. Lukas

Blogger tublecane August 28, 2018 3:59 PM  

@10- Of course it is. There aren't enough Jews to spare. We don't know pre-war population figures precisely (and official history is uninterested in finding out), but there ain't an extra 6 million lying around.

You could split the casualties between Nazis and commies, but denying Germany killed the bulk of them is tantamount to denying the holocaust. So yes, it must be one of the other.

Blogger tublecane August 28, 2018 4:06 PM  

About the lack of records, remember it's not just that we lack Nazi paperwork. The Allies broke German codes (because some nerd was gay for his computer, according to Hollywood). We were listening in on them, and WE kept records.

Far as I know, the Nazis didn't talk to eachother about genocide. No radio commonique or telegram saying, "Hey, Fritz, aren't you sick of carrying corpses out of gas chambers? I'd much rather be killing Russians."

Blogger tublecane August 28, 2018 4:14 PM  

@20- I don't know if you're a shill or that ignorant, but you're a few narratives behind. The official story now is that none of the camps on German soil were death camps. Ironically (or not), all the supposed death camps were on territory "liberated" by the Soviets.

There's another piece to this theoretical Soviet holocaust. They were in place to manufacture evidence against the Nazis if they wanted, and were certainly capable of doing so. We all know, for instance, things they show tourists at Auschwitz are recreations.

Blogger Nick Siekierski August 28, 2018 4:16 PM  

The Soviets admitted to it then, but there was evidence confirming their guilt back in 1943: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2201226/Declassified-documents-prove-U-S-DID-help-cover-1940-Katyn-massacre-Soviets-slaughtered-22-000-Polish-officers.html FDR rejected it and the leftists and communists in his admin made sure not to make an issue out of it. The US shamefully didn’t make a definitive statement until after the Soviet admission. In 1951, the Madden Committee of the US House of Representatives concluded the NKVD carried out the massacre, but many documents were classified until 2011.

Blogger Crew August 28, 2018 4:26 PM  

Far as I know, the Nazis didn't talk to eachother about genocide. No radio commonique or telegram saying, "Hey, Fritz, aren't you sick of carrying corpses out of gas chambers? I'd much rather be killing Russians."

You have forgotten about the evil Nazi Mental Telepathy. They didn't have to talk about it at all!

Blogger Thursday August 28, 2018 4:27 PM  

Don't often comment here. The revisions down of the number of people killed by the Soviet Union has been exaggerated, but there are several issues. First of all, you can't trust the exaggerated numbers put out by various politicians and some popular historians. For example, former Ukrainian president Yushchenko put the Holodomor at 20 million, while Canadian PM Stephen Harper put it at 10 million and a UN declaration put it at 7-10 million. All of these are quite off base.

The thing is though that professional historians, even those of a right wing bent, never really had to revise their estimates down that much. Robert Conquest, for example, put the number at about 5 million, when the actual number was about 3 to 3.5 million. A step down, but not by that much.

Overall, the revised down number for just for Stalin is over 9 million murders of civilians, not including war deaths.

Blogger tublecane August 28, 2018 4:30 PM  

@21- No, one need not throw history out altogether in order to question the holocaust. It's not at all as well-documented as you think, not to mention the contradictory evidence. They rely upon you to be uncritical like that.

In any case, you talk about history like a father convinced his daughter has tainted her virtue forever by accepting a peck on the cheek .History is so much bigger than "holocaust studies," whether or not the narrative is true.

No, you don't have to admit your country is evil. There was certainly great evil done, to which we must own up, without any regard whatsoever to the holocaust. But remember, despite the Nuremberg Show Trials, the Holocaust Industry didn't really take off until the 70s. Let's assume that was created by way of deliberate hoax. How much evil would it require? Any more than what was required for the evil things we know some of our people have done?

As for dying on hills, do you see anyone demanding Trump make a public declaration? No, we're just talking about it. Doesn't the fact that merely talking about it threatens our very existence in your mind tell you something about how irrational is your attachment to the narrative?

Blogger tublecane August 28, 2018 4:48 PM  

@29- I suggest you read a transcript of Hilberg's testimony at the Zundel trial. Maybe it's not fair because one rarely gets the opportunity to cross-examine a historian under oath, and maybe he just wasn't prepared. But he was embarrassing.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan August 28, 2018 4:58 PM  

Solzhenitsyn in his dramatic well written fashion wrote that whole nations were on the move to the East meaning relocation from their homes to some shithole out in the middle of nowhere.

So the question is why would Jews a natural constituency to Trotsky be exempt? Sure fill the trains with felaheen who can barely read but leave Trotsky's natural allies in place in places that matter and to be there to agitate does not seem like Stalin.

Blogger Sagramore August 28, 2018 4:59 PM  

@1 "Shut it down!"

@8 "Trump, under the alias John Titor, personally time-traveled back to 1939 and helped both Hitler AND Stalin holocaust the jews!"

@42 Let's say, hypothetically of course, that I have evidence that a serial murderer didn't act alone, that the police know too but they are under fraternal pressure not to prosecute one of the perps. The victims are still dead, it's not 'denial' but it certainkly is obstruction of justice and host of other crimes.

The Gamergate-style overreaction to questioning the official narrative should always raise suspicions.

Blogger DraveckysHumerus August 28, 2018 5:02 PM  

It was in the displaced persons camps postwar where the jew fictions and distortions orginated. By coincidence I spent this past weekend with a man born in one of those camps. He shared that his father authored many inflated claims that were presented to the occupying authorities. The reason the jews kept improving their stories was because they wanted to emigrate to new countries including palestine and the allies did not wish to admit them. The brits imposed severe restrictions on jews attempting to enter palestine.

Review all photos at this site and tell me these jews had been recently subjected to the conditions described for the "death camps":
http://chelm.freeyellow.com/zeilsheim.html

Observe the slogan which appears in several photos, essentially, "the world won't be free unless the jews are free to do as they please." A tireless old theme.

Blogger tublecane August 28, 2018 5:09 PM  

@42- The "holocaust" is not a certain number of certain types of people being killed during WWII. It is those people being killed deliberately by Germans in order to achieve a specific aim.

Question any part of that, any at all, and you question the whole thing. It's all of a piece in our culture.

Blogger Ingot9455 August 28, 2018 6:00 PM  

@78 @50 @47 I'll have to look those up. I'm more than happy to look at refutations. There's a reason General Eisenhower did plenty of documenting while he was there, though.

I like using Raul Hilberg's work because he explains why the more provable number is around 4 million and where the estimates and inflation comes from.

His other famous line is "I am never going to use the word unique (about the Holocaust), because I recognize that when one starts breaking it into pieces, which is my trade, one finds completely recognizable, ordinary ingredients."

There's been plenty of genocides using a variety of genocidal tools - for example, the Turkish genocide of the Armenian Christians totally beats out the Nazi's for speed kill per unit time even using inflated numbers.

Blogger Zwiebel August 28, 2018 6:15 PM  

First there would be huge denials. You don't realise how many people draw their reason for existence from being *good* Germans. I've been made to sing more songs in Hebrew than in German.

But once it broke... Man. It'd be... immense.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 28, 2018 6:16 PM  

tublecane wrote:The "holocaust" is not a certain number of certain types of people being killed during WWII. It is those people being killed deliberately by Germans in order to achieve a specific aim.


So the Germans are uniquely evil? Is that really your claim?
Or is it that Jews are uniquely sacrosanct?

Because Germans deliberate killing Russians or Poles to achieve a specific aim doesn't matter in your calculus. nor does the US Army occupation force deliberately killing some 1.5 million Germans after the war. Nor does Jews killing Arabs. Nor does Americans killing Iranians or for that matter Germans for the benefit of Jews seem to matter.

Please expand your statement so we can marvel at your moral virtue.

Blogger DonReynolds August 28, 2018 6:33 PM  

I am pretty sure everyone here has been challenged at some time over the holocaust. I always ask..."Which one?"

The original use of the word holocaust was to describe the massacre of the Jews in England, from which they have been expelled by the Crown no less than nine times. Today, people treat the history of WWII as if the war was fought over the holocaust...which is simply false.

When I am confronted with the "six million dead Jews", I always say..."So what? Sixty million people died in WWII. (Are you suggesting that only the Jews mattered?)

I do not need to prove the "six million" to be a false figure. Make it whatever you like ....10 million or 2 million ....makes no difference to me. It is a tiny minority of the dead. You say they were gassed with poison? That sounds pretty humane. Many people who died in the war did not have a relatively quick and painless death. Yes, the Germans died too..by the millions....and some of them were Jews. So I simply do not see the point they are driving at, except to drive out all other relevant facts about WWII.

Hitler was not keenly interested in simply killing Jews, until Germany started losing the war. Before the war started, there were no death camps. Why? The German people were revolted by the idea. There was a plan to move all the Jews to Madagascar, after the Fall of France in 1940. There was another plan to sell the Jews to the Allies for $250 each. Turns out, the Allies did not want them either and refused the sale.

If Germany simply wanted to kill the Jews, I tend to believe they could have done so much more completely and efficiently than they did. The war itself lasted almost six years and nearly all of that time, Hitler had one of the most efficient war machines ever built. Could they have wiped out the Jews (and Gypsies) in Europe? Of course.

Blogger Gettimothy August 28, 2018 6:35 PM  

Noob question. What is the motive to blame the Nazi's instead of Stalin?

Blogger Robert What? August 28, 2018 6:42 PM  

@AnonymousCowherd,

"We know a lot of people died in the labor camps..."

No one is arguing that lots of people, including Jews, died in German labor camps. But the idea that there was a concerted effort to exterminate the Jews that resulted in millions of deaths is simply unsupportable by any evidence. The modern Holocaust Narative that we are fed, with its "Final Solution", is a complete fabrication.

Blogger tublecane August 28, 2018 6:43 PM  

@85- Look at my other posts. I doubt the narrative about unique Germanic evil (going back to Martin Luther or wherever they start it).

I was talking about our culture's Official Holocaust Narrative. It is that the Nazis intended to annihilate European Jewry, and that they got to 6 million of them in an industrial fashion.

Question any part of that and you get labelled a holocaust denier. I didn't make that up; it's just how things are.

Blogger Thumos August 28, 2018 6:50 PM  

@87

Because both communism and western capitalism are useful tools of the oligarchs. They are not ideological, they use whatever works wherever it works. National socialism however was an illiberal antidote to international banking-based capitalism.

Blogger Thumos August 28, 2018 6:54 PM  

@89

Soviets had much less regard for human life than the Nazis did, even concerning that of their own soldiers. I just can't see German people behaving in the ways described historically in Holocaust, Inc.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 28, 2018 6:59 PM  

Robert What? wrote:

No one is arguing that lots of people, including Jews, died in German labor camps. But the idea that there was a concerted effort to exterminate the Jews that resulted in millions of deaths is simply unsupportable by any evidence.


We're in agreement, then. A lot of people died. The Germans couldn't feed or heal their own soldiers; is it any wonder that criminals starved and died of disease? Even if killing Jews was never part of the plan, keeping useless mouths filled simply wasn't possible by the end of the war.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 28, 2018 7:09 PM  

@tubelcane,
Sorry, I didn't pickup the context.

Blogger Zimri August 28, 2018 8:14 PM  

Ashkenazi Jew from the Slavic / Orthodox / spiced-gefilte side of the border, speaking up.

When I grew up my mother and her family were always adamant that Stalin was at least as bad as Hitler and likely worse. This topic came up when my brothers and I found some Warner Brothers cartoons from the WW2 era, mocking Hitler and praising Stalin as our ally ('always at war with Eurasia'...).

My thought, which I can back up from other oral testimonies, is that East European Jewry, being not stupid, were mostly able to hide from the Nazis. But then the Soviets barreled in. The Soviets didn't kill a lot of Jews themselves - they were too busy holding their new conquests.

The main killers were Poles and other Eastern Europeans, under Soviet cover. The Jews, you see, when they popped out of hiding, wanted their old homes and their old lives back. They/we thought that the nightmare was over. But by that time local collaborators - with BOTH sides - had taken the opportunity to 'inherit' those 'vacant' lands.

(There is an illustration of this phenomenon in Spiegelman's "Maus". In Poland.)

After a few hundred thousand of us were murdered in this fashion 1945-6, many others chose to blend in with homeless Slavs and Hungarians, even accepting the Eucharist.

Blogger Zimri August 28, 2018 8:15 PM  

Ominous Cowherd: from 'Maus', again, the biggest killer of Jews was the typhus-plagued louse.

Blogger Zimri August 28, 2018 8:18 PM  

" It is that the Nazis intended to annihilate European Jewry, and that they got to 6 million of them in an industrial fashion. "

The contrary narrative is that the Nazis intended to annihilate European Jewry with near-full support of European Christendom, and that the Nazis got to less than 6 million in an industrial fashion, and that the local European Christians did for the rest.

This might make Hitlerism look better. Doesn't cast a good light on European civilisation as a whole.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 28, 2018 8:23 PM  

"Ominous Cowherd: from 'Maus', again, the biggest killer of Jews was the typhus-plagued louse."

Not just Jews. Again, toward the end of the war th Germans couldn't even take care of their own.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 28, 2018 8:25 PM  

Zimri wrote:The contrary narrative is that the Nazis intended to annihilate European Jewry with near-full support of European Christendom, and that the Nazis got to less than 6 million in an industrial fashion, and that the local European Christians did for the rest.


Well, that's a big old pack 'o lies, but it has the advantage of blaming Christians.

Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira August 28, 2018 8:56 PM  

Man, if it turns out the Soviets did all that killing then THIS would be my reaction!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6Xh1q5l3pc

Blogger Robert What? August 28, 2018 8:57 PM  

@OminousCowherd,

"We're in agreement, then. A lot of people died."

It sounds like you are saying you have stumbled across the astounding revelation that people die during war time. My point is that the Holocaust Narative is given no evidence - in fact you are forbidden to ask about evidence - and has been used to hold the German people hostage for seventy years.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey August 28, 2018 9:05 PM  

@just a guy
OK -- let's take the core claim at the heart of the standard narrative of Jewish casualties during WW2: what documentary or physical evidence can you cite that establishes that even a single person was killed in a "gas chamber" using Zyklon B (hydrogen cyanide adsorbed onto a porous substrate) by the Germans during WW2? Autopsies, blueprints, German documents (out of hundreds of tons captured), etc.

For extra credit, compare and contrast the design features of the fumigation chambers for clothing found at all of the camps (Zyklon B was a fumigant insecticide used to kill lice) with those of any of the alleged "gas chambers."

Now look up how Anne Frank died, how typhus is transmitted, and think about the purpose of showers and head-shaving...

Or you could look up the role of SHAEF'S Division of Psychological Warfare in "discovering" "evidence" of various atrocities...

How come no one ever talks about the shrunken heads or the lampshades anymore? Did they ever do DNA tests on those?

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey August 28, 2018 9:14 PM  

It sounds as if you're attemating to promote the standard narrative of Jewish casualties during WW2 by unsupported assertions, attempted emotional manipulation, and invoking taboos. Typical, but hardly dispositive.

What documentary or physical evidence can you cite that proves that even a single person (let alone millions) was killed in a "gas chamber" by the Germans during WW2?

Blogger kudzu bob August 28, 2018 9:26 PM  

If the Neocons start a nuclear war with Russia, then the survivors will wish that Hitler had managed to kill every last Jew.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey August 28, 2018 9:31 PM  

@Ominous Cowherd

We know a lot of people died in the labor camps. Germans were going hungry, and the prisoners were probably hungrier. Even if the Nazis didn't set out to kill the prisoners, keeping them alive wasn't a top priority.

It wasn't just a supply issue. Epidemic typhus was a huge cause of mortality toward the end of the war. This was exacerbated by the flood of millions of refugees driven ahead of the Red Army, and the associated breakdown of isolation and lice control procedures. Anne Frank died of typhus.

Not all of those running from the Red Army were Nazis. (((Elie Wiesel, in his famous work "Night," tells how he and his father were in Auschwitz as the Red Army approached, and were given the choice to stay and be liberated by the Soviets, or to evacuate with the guards, to march hundreds of miles to another "death camp" farther west. Wiesel chose to leave with the SS.

In editions of "Night" published prior to about 1988, Wiesel "forgot" to mention the notorious "gas chambers." This was retconned in later editions.

Blogger James Donahue August 28, 2018 9:47 PM  

I'll try to read the comments, they're always great. Today I received notice that paperwork I submitted in order to do a somewhat new line of service work, has been approved. I was told that it could take months, not a few weeks. I was already slammed.
A couple things I wanted to say: I think it was in the book "Dark Sun, The Making of The Hydrogen Bomb" it tells of American incursions into what was to be the Soviet zone of defeated Germany in the last weeks of the European theatre. They were after, and obtained the nuclear materials the Germans were experimenting with. Maybe uranium and heavy water. They succeeded, but must have been in a hurry. After the Americans left, the Soviets were able to find more material by carefully examining meticulous German records.
In terms of influence and propaganda, (this could be entirely anecdotal) I'm seeing an ominous trend in Christian circles regarding Jewish feast days, holidays, customs, and OT law keeping. The people I've known who went down that road ended up denying Christ in their old age. Even if it didn't lead people to a works salvation, it makes them blind to, or in denial about any wrong doing by Jews.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey August 28, 2018 9:52 PM  

@Ingot9455

On threads like this I routinely bring up the work of Raul Hilberg

From the notorious 1985 "false news" Holycost heresy trial of Ernst Zundel:

Defense counsel Douglas Christie:
"Can you give me one scientific report that shows the existence of gas chambers anywhere in Nazi-occupied territory?"

Raul Hilbert (expert witness on Holocaustianity dogma):
"I am at a loss."

After this debacle, where other "experts" blew up in similar fashion under cross-examination, the prosecution had great difficulty finding "expert" witnesses for Zundel's 2nd heresy trial.

Shotly after this, holocaust heresy laws that specifically excluded truth as as a defense began to proliferate rapidly, for some reason...

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 28, 2018 9:53 PM  

James,

I've never understood either why some Christians adopt some of the trappings of Judaism.

Blogger Unknown August 28, 2018 9:58 PM  

This is part of why people should actually read Mein Kampf, to expand upon the historical question of why Hitler didn't like the Jews. He basically describes Bernie how many cars and houses do rich people need? I only have three houses Sanders to a T.

Blogger DraveckysHumerus August 28, 2018 10:12 PM  

@107 Stg58/AnimalMother

Judaism is undeniably a contributor to western civilization. I was taught western civilization had a greek father, a hebrew mother and a roman cousin. They erroneously interchanged the hebrew with the roman but you get the idea.

Christian organizations thus have adopted some of the perceived positive contributions of judaism over history. I consider my undergraduate social fraternity, Sigma Chi.

Rooted in Christian symbolism, Sigma Chi utilizes a "norman" white (purity) Christian cross as our standard BUT our order's founders adopted the jewish menorah for the offical seal. This was 1855 AD in rural America by men who were steeped in the classics of western civilization.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 28, 2018 10:15 PM  

Sure, but they didn't get all fucking snooty and gay like when I say Jesus they say "oh you really mean Yeshua. That's really more correct."

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey August 28, 2018 10:17 PM  

@szopen

the fact that a German was forced by SOVIETS to confess is not an argument that western allies were forcing Germans to confess.

It appears that the point you are attempting to make (if there actually is one), is that the Soviets used torture on some of the defendants in the Nuremberg show trials, but that the British and Americans would never do such a thing because reasons.

This is clearly false. Leaving aside the obvious point that many of those involved on the prosecution side were motivated my ethnic enmity toward Germans far more than they were by patriotism or any sense of justice, I suggest you look up the results of US judge Edward van Roden's investigation into the extensive use of torture by the Allies at Nuremberg.

Why did then-Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court Harlan F. Stone refer to the Nuremberg show trials as a "lynching?"

Why did Sen. Robert Taft call the process a "perversion of justice?" Were they ebil naught-sees too?

Blogger Kevin Walker August 28, 2018 10:24 PM  

The fraud is coming to an end.

There is simply no proof to sustain the holocaust’ narrative, none.

The claims defy laws of science, logic & rational thinking. IOW, it is a hateful & destructive religion that has been very profitable for Jews in general and “that shitty little country” in particular.

The ‘holocaust’ storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. Only lies require laws against free speech & persecution of those who speak freely.



The ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ are scientifically impossible frauds.
See the ‘holocaust’ scam debunked here: http://codoh.com
No name calling, level playing field debate here: http://forum.codoh.com

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey August 28, 2018 10:24 PM  

@Desdichado

Stg58/Animal Mother wrote:Think of all the new movies we could get with new bad guys!
This time, Indiana Jones takes the Ark of the Covenant from the evil Jews


But the movie would still end with the Ark (symbol of Jewish power) being hidden away deep in a government warehouse -- out of sight, but still there.

Blogger DraveckysHumerus August 28, 2018 10:29 PM  

@110. Sure, but they didn't get all fucking snooty and gay...

Pretty much the jewish fraternities and fraternity members at Michigan were snooty and gay. I dunno they were fucking females much. Michigan JAPs wouldn't let them sniff snizz let alone touch them. White girls, back when they were a smaller fraction of undergrads and even less so grad students, only gave it up for lots and lots (and lots!) of cocaine back tail end of the 80's-90's.

Jews weren't our model or positive inspiration. It's where the notion of "tolerance" entered our vocabulary. Yet I didn't hate them, just avoided them whenever possible.

Blogger Kevin Walker August 28, 2018 10:30 PM  

Everyone should read Unz's American Pravda series and consider reading the memory-holed books he has made available to read on his site.

Blogger Dangeresque August 28, 2018 10:36 PM  

Funny, because even America at the time understood this connection and was acting accordingly... Jewish refugee boats were turned away at our Eastern shore because it was widely understood they were communist sympathizers.

Blogger tublecane August 28, 2018 10:40 PM  

@104- Yes, it's interesting to track the changing Holocaust Narrative through different major propaganda numbers. Night has as the method of mass murder flaming open pits. Which isn't at all practical but makes sense when you know "holocaust" means offering."

Schindler's List is about Jews that survived, so when they arrive at Auschwitz they are given water showers instead of Cyclone B showers. But there's a nod to gassing rumors and the movie teases you, making you think they might be gassed.

The only depiction of mass murder in the film is when they're rounding up Jews from some city to send them into the Warsaw Ghetto, I think. Pretty standard wartime stuff, except the Nazis exhume the corpses they buried later on in order to burn them for some reason. Getting rid of the evidence or whatever.

The scene where they burn the already-dead bodies is reminiscent of the visuals from Night, and Spielberg has ashes falling down like snowflakes, which is repeated in the tv version of Man in the High Castle. So the burnt offering meme lives on.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 28, 2018 10:44 PM  

Dravecky, I am referring to Christian Ghetto types.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey August 28, 2018 10:45 PM  

@Zimri

The contrary narrative is that the Nazis intended to annihilate European Jewry with near-full support of European Christendom, and that the Nazis got to less than 6 million in an industrial fashion, and that the local European Christians did for the rest.

How did you arrive at this "6 million" figure, and what is your evidence to support it?

Blogger R Webfoot August 28, 2018 10:54 PM  

"I'm seeing an ominous trend in Christian circles regarding Jewish feast days, holidays, customs, and OT law keeping. The people I've known who went down that road ended up denying Christ in their old age. Even if it didn't lead people to a works salvation, it makes them blind to, or in denial about any wrong doing by Jews."

"James,

I've never understood either why some Christians adopt some of the trappings of Judaism."

I think the most obvious explanation is that Jews and Jewish infiltrators propagandize it precisely to provoke people towards what is sort of the opposite of antisemitism. Judaizers were present in NT times; Chrysostom, a couple centuries later, also reported great harm that was done by Judaizers who had influenced Christians into an unhealthy fascination with Jewishness. It had gotten to an odd point where some Christians, if they wished to make a sincere promise, would go to a synagogue to do so out of the belief that they were especially holy. Which Chrysostom refuted, arguing that they were quite the opposite. This was in part due to the rejection of Christ, and in part due to the irreverence they showed by... only a quote will suffice.

"But these Jews are gathering choruses of effeminates and a great rubbish heap of harlots; they drag into the synagogue the whole theater, actors and all. For there is no difference between the theater and the synagogue."

Blogger DraveckysHumerus August 28, 2018 10:59 PM  

@118. Stg/Animal Mother

Swing and a miss. Wups. Now that I've reviewed your blogger profile, respectfully, can you please help me contact local Chicago denizens of your like mind. I'm fine with being vetted but there had better be no leos. Thanks in advance.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 28, 2018 11:01 PM  

What

Blogger James Donahue August 28, 2018 11:36 PM  

OK, read the comments, and again they're great, almost as killer as the blog. I still have a contention with VD, but in perspective, if you trade me for a piece of cheese, I'll put it in a thimble and throw it in the lake. Oh wait, it's still floating. Whatever. Cheese, the original comfort food.
@ Stg58/Animal Mother, the justification always starts with "It's so rich and such a blessing . . ." Why then do they study it so diligently with skewed proof texts? When it requires a force-fit, that's telling.
@R Webfoot, that's a great quote, and I wouldn't doubt the Judaization is spread as the opposite of antisemitism, but it ends up as "Oh foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, that you should not obey the truth . . ."
In mid nineteenth century America, actors were despised, I always thought it was because they were skilled at being someone they're not, but maybe folks knew something else back then.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 29, 2018 12:06 AM  

James Donahue wrote:In mid nineteenth century America, actors were despised, I always thought it was because they were skilled at being someone they're not, but maybe folks knew something else back then.
Actors have always been despised, not just in the 19th century. The ones that are not mentally ill are emotionally unstable. The males are usually homosexual, the women are universally whores, either literally or figuratively. The culture of theatre is accepting all of these things, as well as child snatching and rape.
Actors are bad news, and the feminization of our society is the root cause of their valued taking over our civilization.

Blogger Azimus August 29, 2018 12:52 AM  

@ DonReynolds "Hitler had most efficient war machine ever built... could have wiped out jews"

Haha - clearly you did not see the movie "Defiance" - just a ragtag band of untrained fugitives in the forests of Belorus wiped out an entire German division to the last man, don'tchyaknow. Haha

Seriously while the movie was great it does not pass the smell test. The movie said that just two brothers, without any infrastructure of any kind, managed to A) support a secret community of thousands of people in the forest by raiding nearby farms for supplies (impossible) while B) simultaneously winning a partisan war without any military training or supply other than "the Russians gave us some guns and bullets".

The debut of this movie is when I realized that Hollywood had very little integrity when it came to portraying history.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 29, 2018 12:54 AM  

"You don't realise how many people draw their reason for existence from being *good* Germans."

Would be decades of Stockholm Syndrome if all this ties.

"I do not need to prove the "six million" to be a false figure. Make it whatever you like ....10 million or 2 million ....makes no difference to me. It is a tiny minority of the dead."

Ding! Do it like Don, point out the obvious that will still provoke howls of rage from the propagandists, and then let everyone sit and stare and wonder why exactly those people hate the truth as though it were physical torture.

"Noob question. What is the motive to blame the Nazi's instead of Stalin?"

The Nazis lost. One of the easiest and most effective political dodges is to blame whoever can't defend themselves.

On the other side of the coin, the commies/socialists/globohomos are all offspring/proteges/beneficiaries/tools of the bankstas (and to some extent each other), and all were well embedded in even the Allied power structures before WWII was even close to begun.

"This was 1855 AD in rural America by men who were steeped in the classics of western civilization."

The "Jews" were just busy redacting the terms Judahite/Judean/etc from pretty much every version of the Bible in the early/mid 1800s, and replacing them all with "Jew/Jews", thereby hiding that they were near-entirely neither Judahites/Benjamites/Levites by blood nor even Judeans by ancestral domicile.

It's pretty well documented that many of them faked Christian conversion even in the early American colonies. This type of maneuver was something they had a long history of doing by that point -- so much so that they were actually the primary cause of the earlier Spanish Inquisition.

"But the movie would still end with the Ark (symbol of Jewish power) being hidden away deep in a government warehouse"

More of a symbol of divine power. I'm fairly certain the Ark killed more (actual) Judaeans up close and personal than Hitler ever did with questionable/fake ones. Hitler just didn't have that "Midas death touch" ability he needed to compete in that regard.

Best ending would be the Ark itself melting the faces off of an entire stadium full of people of the lie.

Blogger tublecane August 29, 2018 1:30 AM  

@87- The obvious: blaming Stalin would implicate the rest of the Allies, who are very careful to this day that no one know how bloody their hands got messing around in Red mud. Also, winner write the books.

Though Westerners subsidized the Third Reich just as they had the Bolsheviks, the Nazis were far greater enemies. For instance, Washington was run through with Soviet agents. Not so many Nazis, despite there being far more Germans than Eastern Europeans or Jews here.

There was also a larger sense in which the Western ruling class saw the Reds as being on the side of progress, if wrong. There may have been a time when they saw fascism that way, but Hitler was too successful at divorcing Germany from the international financial order. They had dollar signs in their eyes as regarded the ruling order in Russia. Which they in fact continued to subsidize through the Cold War.

They still have dollar signs in their eyes regarding Russia, come to think of it.

Blogger tublecane August 29, 2018 1:39 AM  

@125- The Bielski partisans were real, and they camped in the woods in occupied Poland. But they weren't involved in major combat operations against the Germans. They mostly provided support to the Soviets and protected 1,000 or so civilians.

Their leader, one of the brothers, had served in the Polish army and as a commissar for the commies. His 150 or so men shielded Jews and killed local collaborators, i.e. Polacks.

Blogger Станислав Бартошевич August 29, 2018 4:25 AM  

"First, they didn't. You realize that the regime was led by people who were a) proud of their acts"

The severely negative public reaction to the forced euthanasia program taught them that premediated murder of population segments is where most of their supporters become uncomfortable (and perhaps the fact that being openly proud of your atrocities against unarmed civilians did not work too well for Germany in WW I also played a role). Therefore while methodic atrocities on the territory taken from USSR during the campaign, including both actions of Einsatzgruppen and the conscious decision to starve most or all PoWs to death (they fairly accurately predicted the likely number for 1941 and then assigned rations at the level that precluded long-term survival), were merely not overtly publicized, the plans to exterminate Jews in the territories already under firm German control were from the beginning executed in secrecy and veiled in obfuscating language. Regardless, a substantial paper trail survived.

"and b) committed suicide, right?"

Most of the key decision-makers did not, and there were no suicides on a significant scale in middle management which handled the details of extermination program. But in any case, they only had to care about the German nation as a whole to try and erase evidence of crimes that was at risk of falling into the enemy's hands. Indeed, Sonderkommando 1005 started to work on removing physical evidence soon after expectations of winning the war outright had vanished.

"And second, if you know anything about German bureaucracy, there is NO WAY they could possibly so thoroughly eliminated every last vestige of such a massive program in such a short period of time under such intense military pressure."

Well, they didn't. Plenty of paper trail, from Einsatzgruppen's extermination tallies, to correspondence with companies that provided equipment for mass murder had survived. The "revisionist" "historians" just conveniently forgot to mention it.

Basically, as far as crime investigation do, we have the record of the victim going with the criminal in the direction where the crime is supposed to occur (Jew deportations from various European countries), we have the corpse (post-Soviet examinations of the sites of Aktion Reinhard camps, even if you discard any and all evidence provided by communist regimens), we have the motive (from sentiment expressed public speeches to the general belief that Germany-controlled territories have too many mouths to feed, thanks to supplies of fertilizer from overseas stopping from obvious reasons), we have the pretty wide array of material evidence indicating that the crime was planned and tools for it were procured (again, even if you entirely discard all Nazi testimonies as produced under duress), and we have a very long record of criminal behavior from the suspect. Regardless of how unsympathetic the victim is, any reasonable judge and jury can only say "guilty!".

And speaking of your theory. The main extermination camps are located in the present-day Poland. I'm not an expert on how exactly Poles share their hatred between Germany and Russia, but their overall political hostility to the latter and at least nominal alliance with the former is obvious. It is very hard to believe that any post-Soviet investigations and re-examinations of evidence uncovered anything that may have implicated USSR instead of Germany, and Poland decided to hush it up. While a chance to stick to the Russia the fact that the Soviet occupation forces used some of German concentration (not extermination) camps, like, IIRC, Buchenwald, for their old purpose, and conditions there remained just as or even more brutal was, by contrast, not missed.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 29, 2018 5:22 AM  

"Regardless, a substantial paper trail survived."

Which "perversely" doesn't exist with regard to your attempted contradiction. Assertions without evidence are one thing -- yours are in the face of it.

Blogger szopen August 29, 2018 5:27 AM  

tublecane wrote:@125- The Bielski partisans were real, and they camped in the woods in occupied Poland. But they weren't involved in major combat operations against the Germans. They mostly provided support to the Soviets and protected 1,000 or so civilians.

Their leader, one of the brothers, had served in the Polish army and as a commissar for the commies. His 150 or so men shielded Jews and killed local collaborators, i.e. Polacks.


Commissar == gestapo. They robbed local population (because locals were already hungry and had to send a lot of food to Nazis, and if they would fail to meet the quotas, would be killed). Then they started to murder women and children. Plus, of course, Bielskis were commie collaborators, so locals SHOULD oppose them, as a matter of principles. Those were POlish territories, after all.

Blogger szopen August 29, 2018 5:34 AM  

Zimri wrote:

After a few hundred thousand of us were murdered in this fashion 1945-6


Few hundred thousands, my, my. The number is going up every day. The real number produced by actual historians looking at actual data (of Jews killed post Nazi occupation) is not even one thousand. It's way lower than the number of Poles murdered by commies, of which - as you surely know - high percentage, especially in upper ranks, were Jewish.

Then there is this phenomenon noticed with astonishment by many other Poles: why Jews seem to hate Poles more than Germans? It's just unbelieveable.

(PS: No, i had not said that the Jews are responsible for killing of Poles. I am of opinion that you can't blame any nation for the actions of individuals. If you however think "majority of Jews was killed by Poles", then you are clearly brainwashed and maybe you need a bit of cold shower to wake you up).

Blogger tublecane August 29, 2018 6:17 AM  

About the S.S. deathdeaths squads, why does everyone think of them as if they were like camp guards, in charge of their environment and making unilateral decisions about whom to kill and why? Do we think of Americans in Vietnam/Afghanistan/Iraq the same way? Or the Napoleonic French in Spain?

Conquered territory isn't pacified territory. They were fighting a partisan war. Which isn't to say they didn't outright murder people and do evil. But of course so did the Soviets, and I'm not sure anything Nazi death squads did was as bad as the Rape of Germany.

Blogger VD August 29, 2018 6:30 AM  

Basically, as far as crime investigation do, we have the record of the victim going with the criminal in the direction where the crime is supposed to occur (Jew deportations from various European countries), we have the corpse (post-Soviet examinations of the sites of Aktion Reinhard camps, even if you discard any and all evidence provided by communist regimens), we have the motive (from sentiment expressed public speeches to the general belief that Germany-controlled territories have too many mouths to feed, thanks to supplies of fertilizer from overseas stopping from obvious reasons), we have the pretty wide array of material evidence indicating that the crime was planned and tools for it were procured (again, even if you entirely discard all Nazi testimonies as produced under duress), and we have a very long record of criminal behavior from the suspect. Regardless of how unsympathetic the victim is, any reasonable judge and jury can only say "guilty!".

Ludicrous. There is more than enough reasonable doubt even in your own false and inaccurate account.

Blogger bob kek mando - ( i always walk with Jack Ward ... unless i'm riding with Joe Rohan ) August 29, 2018 7:03 AM  

11. FUBARwest August 28, 2018 11:43 AM
This information is big. How are God's chosen responsible for so many deaths?



read Jonah 3.

( some ) Jews have hungered for the genocide of the goyim for more than a thousand years before Christ was born.

Blogger Avalanche August 29, 2018 7:09 AM  

@10 "I don't think it's necessary to argue the Nazi Holocaust false in order to argue the Soviet Holocaust true. It may be the case or may not, but it is an unnecessary distraction."

Unless you consider we've been burning up our treasure and our young men for decades on behalf of that "distraction." (You could bring up the Holodomor too -- at least, finally, that word can be used, if carefully,to point to a disallowed truth.

America and the West stagger around the globe like a retarded big brother ("Greater Judea") fighting whatever country, people, or group the 'hurt' and malicious Lesser Judea points "us" toward, and many, many of our fellow citizens cry and shun us for objecting or pointing to the truth.

How is it, in American schools, including elementary schools, "we" "celebrate" the Holyhoax every single year, without fail, with trips to "museums," with exercises, skits, and readings, with invited "survivors" (many of whom have been outed to be essentially actors, not reporters of experience). How is it our tax dollars are spent building and supporting Holyhoax museums all over America, but the D.C. memorial to AMERICAN soldiers who died in WWII had to hold bake sales?!

It necessary to argue the Nazi Holocaust false in order to stop the lies and destruction of our countries and our people -- oh, and also because it IS false! Demonstrably so; and followed by gag orders, fines, loss of jobs and positions, jailing, and exporting 90-yr-old men who served their country against a clean internal group of traitors.

If you would read more:

Conclusion
Very few of those who glibly refer to "all the Nuremberg evidence" as proof for the Holocaust extermination story are familiar with either the real nature of this "evidence" or the character of these trials. On closer examination, solid documentary or forensic evidence of a wartime German policy to exterminate Europe's Jews proves to be elusive. As we have seen, the evidence that has been presented consists largely of extorted confessions, spurious testimonies, and fraudulent documents. The postwar Nuremberg trials were politically motivated proceedings meant more to discredit the leaders of a defeated regime than to establish truth.

We do not need trials or "confessions" to prove that the Katyn massacre or the postwar deportation of Germans from eastern and central Europe actually took place. By comparison, the Holocaust story does not claim just a few isolated massacres, but a vast extermination program taking place across the European continent over a three-year period involving several governments and millions of people. The fact that the Holocaust story must rely so heavily on highly dubious testimony evidence and trials staged in a historically unparalleled atmosphere of hysteria, intimidation and propaganda demonstrates its inherent weakness.


Start here:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Weberb.html

Blogger Avalanche August 29, 2018 7:25 AM  

@20 "but we still have Mein Kampf don't we?"

Which you have obviously never read, but merely "believe" what you have been told by the folks benefiting most from your whole-hearted acceptance of their presentations.

Who here, was it, pointed out the baffling illogic of a reader/viewer accepting that an MSM story, personally KNOWN to be false in both major and minor points, who then turns the page and accepts as unquestionably true the other "stories" on succeeding pages?

Propaganda from birth, as applies to nearly all of us here, is difficult to fight free from, but important to try.

Would you know more? Try this book:
Author: Arthur R. Butz
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century—The Case Against the Presumed Extermination of European Jewry

Blogger Avalanche August 29, 2018 7:50 AM  

@21 "Accepting Holocaust Denial inevitably means that, just as a prerequisite to siding with you, any American patriot must admit that his country was not only wrong, but straight-up evil."

Ah, so you're not following Q at all then, eh? Still think that smell of corruption and sulfur from D.C. is just normal burning garbage?

Blogger Avalanche August 29, 2018 8:34 AM  

@21 "Insisting that one of the most thoroughly documented events in history (including surviving the German documentation which is here alleged to be nonexistent; despite Germans in fact possessing a crystal-clear reason to dispose of papers implicating both them as a regime and many of them personally) did not in fact happen, means that we effectively and totally reject the entire notion of "history", the entire idea of ever knowing anything about the past beyond our own personal memory. And replace it with telling whatever narrative is convenient for our current purposes."

"... most thoroughly documented"? You think that somehow, the most obsessively meticulous recorders of EVERY action: decision, progress, and result; Reichsmark spent; every list of parts ordered and used, people moved and retrieved; trucks, trains, planes built and lost; research planned, started, ongoing, finished, and reported; somehow did NOT keep any records whatsoever about their alleged "major reason" for WWII?

Or was it that, magically, in the midst of losing a war where they were short of food and fuel, had disrupted comms, and with many, many thousands of soldiers and civilians and prisoners and enemies spread across multiple theatres of operation – found a way to "dispose of" millions and millions of pages and record books AS the Germans were being defeated and their 'war machine' was being taken over? The ONLY 'extant' supposed proof is some mistranslated sentences from the Wansee Conference.

The Soviets have admitted to modifying the roof of the "gas chambers" at Auschwitz to imply for propaganda purposes that Zyklon – a HEAVIER-THAN-AIR gas created by the HEATING of the 'cakes' – was dropped into a NON-air-tight room. The Yad Vashem, Israel's 'World Holocaust Remembrance Center' has stipulated that it was NOT "more than two million Jews killed at Auschwitz" as the plaque outside read for many years. That plaque was replaced by one claiming that "only" 700k were killed there. Is that -- if it's true -- a horrific number? Absolutely. No question. But, is it true?! We don't know! The Soviets have been releasing some carefully selected bits of the records they took and have kept secret after they 'liberated' the camps. Not all the records, so the revisionism is -- and MUST BE -- ongoing! Oh, but there's a problem...

Raising that enquiry, doing that research, in, say, Germany or Austria or France or even Australia and our good-old "free speech" U.S.A. often results in disemployment, fines, (even kidnapping by U.S. police and an "extralegal" extradition for a pacifist married to a U.S. citizen for jail time in Germany for speech and writing that are NOT illegal in the U.S.: Ernst Zundel, look him up)!

Somehow it's fine to investigate and revise the "history" of the Khmer Rouge massacres, the Armenian genocide, the Tutsi/Hutu thing, WWII Japan in China, and so on -- without much jeopardy -- but God help you if you question in any way the Holy Six Million! WHY does any historical event require laws -- and jail time -- to prevent historians and anyone else looking into or discussing it?

x: Holocaust denial writer jailed for five years
x: a well-known historical revisionist, was sentenced to two-and-a-half years in prison for Holocaust denial by a German court
x: A German court has sentenced an 89-year-old woman to 14 months in prison for Holocaust denial.
x: A German neo-Nazi publisher was yesterday sentenced to five years in prison
x: sentenced to 10 years in prison for Holocaust denial
x: The British revisionist historian and Nazi apologist David Irving was today sentenced to three years in prison
x: As there is no specific crime of Holocaust denial in the UK, the German government had applied for Toben's extradition for racial and xenophobic crimes.

JAIL for questioning / investigating only this part of history?!

Blogger Avalanche August 29, 2018 8:34 AM  

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Weberb.html

Conclusion
Very few of those who glibly refer to "all the Nuremberg evidence" as proof for the Holocaust extermination story are familiar with either the real nature of this "evidence" or the character of these trials. On closer examination, solid documentary or forensic evidence of a wartime German policy to exterminate Europe's Jews proves to be elusive. As we have seen, the evidence that has been presented consists largely of extorted confessions, spurious testimonies, and fraudulent documents. The postwar Nuremberg trials were politically motivated proceedings meant more to discredit the leaders of a defeated regime than to establish truth.

We do not need trials or "confessions" to prove that the Katyn massacre or the postwar deportation of Germans from eastern and central Europe actually took place. By comparison, the Holocaust story does not claim just a few isolated massacres, but a vast extermination program taking place across the European continent over a three-year period involving several governments and millions of people. The fact that the Holocaust story must rely so heavily on highly dubious testimony evidence and trials staged in a historically unparalleled atmosphere of hysteria, intimidation and propaganda demonstrates its inherent weakness.


Two generally good place to start looking: http://www.ihr.org/ and https://codoh.com/

Blogger Avalanche August 29, 2018 9:43 AM  

@65 "Holocaust skepticism is hard."

The Good Little Goy's Loyalty Oath
(to the meter of the Apostle's Creed):

I believe in Jewry, Chosen of God, makers of Mythical Money and Media Monopoly,

And in Greater Judea, once America, now their Cattle Ranch.

Which was surrendered to their manipulation, subjected to their governance, driven to the destruction of their enemies -- and was negrified, judaized, and feminized.

It descended into hell.

Never to rise again as the land of its Founders.

Thus Greater Judea ascended to Global Supremacy, sitting at the right hand of the megacidal Soviet Monstrosity,

With which it rendered Soviet-style, show-trial justice on the enemies of Judeo-Communism.

I believe in the Holy Holocaust,

The Holy State of Israel,

The Sacred Six Million,

The Diabolization of Hitler,

The Hollywood History of the Second World War,

And the everlasting pursuit of Nazis.

Amen.

(From: http://master-morality.blogspot.com/)

Blogger Expendable Faceless Minion August 29, 2018 10:36 AM  

Yeah, if I was gonna kill a gajillion people, I wouldn't start by building camps. I'd jave killed them while still in the locked train cars.
That was my first "Wait a sec." moment.

Blogger Expendable Faceless Minion August 29, 2018 10:55 AM  

For Stalin, 6 million more victims doesn't even make much of a blip in his atrocity score.

Blogger szopen August 29, 2018 12:31 PM  

Expendable Faceless Minion wrote:Yeah, if I was gonna kill a gajillion people, I wouldn't start by building camps. I'd jave killed them while still in the locked train cars.

That was my first "Wait a sec." moment.


Which is probably why so many of the Jews were shot, and not transported anywhere.

Blogger CarpeOro August 29, 2018 1:25 PM  

New movie about the kidnapping of Eichman from Argentina coming out. I am inclined to think it will not be a major hit.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 29, 2018 2:31 PM  

Expendable Faceless Minion wrote:Yeah, if I was gonna kill a gajillion people, I wouldn't start by building camps. I'd jave killed them while still in the locked train cars.

Extermination would have been easy. March them from the railroad siding to the big, deep hole, machine gun them, bulldoze them into the hole, and then cover with the bulldozer. Then the whole platoon goes home to dinner, and can repeat the performance when the next train load arrives tomorrow. No muss, no fuss, and no resources diverted from the war effort.

The efficient Germans would surely not have done what they did if extermination were the goal.

Blogger Dirk Manly August 29, 2018 2:42 PM  

@3

"The Germans were the ones that reported the bodies and I'm almost sure the Red Cross confirmed that the Russians did it at the time."

Don't count on the Red Cross reports to be totally honest. It had already become a wolf-in-sheep's-clothing by the time WW2 started.

Blogger Dirk Manly August 29, 2018 2:47 PM  

For example, from reports of soldiers on the beach in Normany on D+2, the Red Cross was CHARGING ALLIED SOLDIERS 5 CENTS FOR A CUP OF COFFEE.
Mind you, there would be no reason for soldiers landing on the beach in those days to be paper carrying money, let alone coins. Valuables would be left in storage in one's duffle bags. A soldier MIGHT have kept a dollar or two on him... but most of the U.S. soldiers landing in Normandy had never been in combat before. If they were ordered to not take any money ashore with them, then they would have followed it.

Blogger Dirk Manly August 29, 2018 2:50 PM  

@6

"So Stalin was seeking revenge for the murdered Romanovs?

That would make for a cool story."

Stalin was Georgian, not Russian. He would have had little to no concern for the Romanovs. On the other hand, wanting to use the power of the state against an ethnic who had become little more than mass murderers against all other ethnicities, and sadistic ones at that, that's motivation enough in and of itself.

Blogger Dirk Manly August 29, 2018 2:53 PM  

@9

"First time I've heard about that. I know Soviets wanted to accused Nazis about Katyń, but allies refused. Link please?"

You have the dubious benefit of living in Poland, and so having closer access to the truth. In the U.S., it was only recently revealed that the Khatyn Massacre was done by the (((Soviet secret police))), not the Germans.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 29, 2018 3:04 PM  

"why Jews seem to hate Poles more than Germans?"

Because the Poles still have testicles and are refusing to cuck under and pay fraud-extortions to certain Jews. The Germans are already effectively cowed.

"Don't count on the Red Cross reports to be totally honest. It had already become a wolf-in-sheep's-clothing by the time WW2 started."

Yep, Banksta owned-and-operated and doing covert and immoral political maneuvers even during WWI.

Blogger Dirk Manly August 29, 2018 3:07 PM  

@20

"I am not a historian, but isn't there enough evidence of trains and who were running the concentration camps, the evidence from the survivors, the final solution and other documents that were shown at the trials to show major German involvement and direction? I mean can't we take facts that seem indisputable from the many witnesses/documents such as the round-up of jews and others, the placing in concentration camps while the Germans were ruling the territory--and infer the rest. The stories and films of the concentration camps when they were liberated, and the documentation that was done-- all on German ruled territory seems to put any logical change to the major story at odd with facts. We know when and where many of the deaths occurred-- when Germany was in a death struggle with the Russians and on German controlled territory. How can we logically come up with anything else? "

I'm getting the sense, more and more, that the Germans were particularly upset by the Jewish practice of making their living through unscrupulous ways, or by obtaining monopoly status in a product, and then using that as an extortion racket for that product. And the historical disdain that Jews have shown for manual labor of any sort.

What was the sign on the work camps (and they were all called work camps, not concentration camps): Arbeit Macht Frei (Work makes you free).

If you wanted to kill millions of people, you don't spend ENORMOUS resources (especially in the midst of a 2- and later 3-front war) of fuel, logistics, food, clothing, precious railroad capacity, building camps (with all the logistics load that entailed), just to kill people.
You round up people in a locality, march them out to some remote place a few miles away (preferably along a river), and then just shoot them. Preferably after marching them out waist-deep into the water, so that the current takes the bodies away. If anybody can't make the march (be it 3 miles or 50 miles)... no problem, it's a death-march anyways.

The whole "these were deliberately designed to be death camps" narrative really doesn't make any sense for people who the government wants to eradicate.

Look at our own camp Manzanar in Death Valley. It was NOT the desire of the U.S. government to eradicate the Nissei, merely to keep them in a place where they could do no harm for the duration of the war.

Blogger szopen August 29, 2018 4:02 PM  

Ominous Cowherd wrote:
Extermination would have been easy. March them from the railroad siding to the big, deep hole, machine gun them, bulldoze them into the hole, and then cover with the bulldozer. Then the whole platoon goes home to dinner, and can repeat the performance when the next train load arrives tomorrow. No muss, no fuss, and no resources diverted from the war effort.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen

read starting with "After a time, Himmler found that the killing methods used by the Einsatzgruppen were inefficient: they were costly, demoralising for the troops, and sometimes did not kill the victims quickly enough.[114] Many of the troops found the massacres to be difficult if not impossible to perform. Some of the perpetrators suffered physical and mental health problems, and many turned to drink."

Still they killed about more than 1 mln people that way.

Blogger szopen August 29, 2018 4:03 PM  

Better link than the previous one: https://infogalactic.com/info/Einsatzgruppen#Transition_to_gassing

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 29, 2018 4:10 PM  

Dirk Manly wrote:If they were ordered to not take any money ashore with them, then they would have followed it.
Nobody was expecting to find any prostitutes before the Germans stopped shooting at them, anyway.

Blogger Resident Moron™ August 29, 2018 5:14 PM  

In my early twenties I worked with a few much older guys, latvians, russians and the like. They were implacably hostile to socialists communists and would make violently aggressive mayhem whenever we encountered them at a union meeting. (Yes, I lived in the soviet socialist republic of New Zealand where union membership was compulsory)

But although I knew many of these guys who’d regale you with stories of how they and their families walked out of the soviet union after WW2, with just the clothes on their backs and a never ending hatred for the left, and I knew of many more, I never met a single german with a similar story. Never heard of one either. Not a frenchman or dutchman or Italian or anyone from anywhere the Germans occupied during that time. Not even a Pole.

I was in my thirties before I consciously noticed this but even then I didn’t give it much thought. Now it bothers me a lot more.

Blogger tublecane August 29, 2018 5:53 PM  

@144- If 11 million (only 6 of which we know about) were done-in that way we'd have found Katyns all over the place. The Official Holocaust Narrative has it that a large number of bodies disappeared into thin air, via cremation.

Indeed the S.S. committed mass murder in that fashion on the Eastern Front, but not so far as we can tell in a coordinated, industrial -sized manner in furtherance of some grand scheme besides winning the war.

And remember, it's not as if we're talking 20 years' worth of isolated incidents of kulaks getting shot for their grain. Historians have an understandably tricky time figuring how many people die in that manner.

The Holocaust had to happen in a relatively short period of time. I don't see how it's possible without leaving massive amounts of evidence.

Blogger tublecane August 29, 2018 6:02 PM  

@146- The Dual Purpose problem arises in my mind again. Let's say extermination was your goal, but you also wanted to use them for slave labor. Which is what they actually did. You'd have to set up some parallel system whereby some of them go to die and some go to work. So it wouldn't be all train lines to the death pit.

What do we actually find in purported extermination/forced labor camps? Well, no death pits. Supposed instruments of mass murder, but it turns out those instruments also had other uses: showers, fumigation rooms, air raid shelters and crematoriums that don't discriminate between causes of death. They don't even contain poison gas specifically designed to kill. They have something which coincidentally is also used for fumigation.

Everything could be explained as intended for some other purpose. But if you assume 6 million and other millions were killed, welk, something had to do it. And you work with what you got.

Blogger tublecane August 29, 2018 6:32 PM  

@153- That is post-hoc rationalizing after you've decided they moved onto more efficient means of execution. But where are these means? And where is the proof they were decided upon?

Yes, it would be demoralizing to spend all day shooting crowds of unarmed people. It's also not that easy to kill a crowd with a hail of bullets. There would be better ways, if you could somehow get them on to the metaphorical conveyor belt of death or whatever people have in mind when they think death camp. But those didn't exist.

If S.S. death squads killed more than a million civilians that way, well, how many civilians were directly killed during WWII? That is to say, how many died from violence as opposed to disease or privation? I have no idea. 30 million? 50 !million? More? Fewer?

In any case, you can put the S.S. high on the list of civilian-killers, but it can't be anything like the 11 million figure.

Blogger Mark Stoval August 29, 2018 7:22 PM  

Vox, thanks for this post and the thread that it engendered.

As a very young man I studied the matter under discussion here and came to know that the story of WW2 was bullshit on many fronts. The very fact you can not even talk about the "Holocaust" in many countries told me something. The truth does not need legal protection; lies do.

It is nice to see the thoughts of so many here plainly state what to most is heresy.

I'll tell just one small story. I once read of a chemist who went to one of the "death camps" to prove they used poison gas to kill with. After much investigation he reported that poison gas was never used in that camp. They put him in jail for doing chemistry.

Blogger Daniel August 29, 2018 8:14 PM  

The jewish nation had declared publicy war on germany y. If you are in war you cannot have enemy citizens loose in your country. Usa did the same with the japanese, concentración camps

Blogger Daniel August 29, 2018 8:18 PM  

Forced working concentration camps <> exterminatfon camps. Usa put the japaneses in concentration camps also

Blogger Expendable Faceless Minion August 30, 2018 1:31 AM  

It isn't even a matter of integrity. I KNOW movie makers. They just ain't very bright. None of them could grasp the logical holes you list.

Blogger Expendable Faceless Minion August 30, 2018 1:35 AM  

Self prrservation. If they're hanging folks for war crimes after show trials, it's a good time to lay low and let the murdering bastards you've been fighting swing for your crimes.

Blogger Expendable Faceless Minion August 30, 2018 1:42 AM  

After WWI's Spanish Flu, it'd be easier to say the starved slaves were all dying of the flu and it spread camp to camp from new arrivals. The ovens were to stop a pandemic from infecting groundwater through mass burials. Gas chambers to fumigate bodies and possessions of plague victims.

Blogger szopen August 30, 2018 2:29 AM  

tublecane wrote:@153- That is post-hoc rationalizing after you've decided they moved onto more efficient means of execution. But where are these means? And where is the proof they were decided upon?

Yes, it would be demoralizing to spend all day shooting crowds of unarmed people. It's also not that easy to kill a crowd with a hail of bullets. There would be better ways, if you could somehow get them on to the metaphorical conveyor belt of death or whatever people have in mind when they think death camp. But those didn't exist.

If S.S. death squads killed more than a million civilians that way, well, how many civilians were directly killed during WWII? That is to say, how many died from violence as opposed to disease or privation? I have no idea. 30 million? 50 !million? More? Fewer?

In any case, you can put the S.S. high on the list of civilian-killers, but it can't be anything like the 11 million figure.


The new graves are being found all the time.

There are also some questions: (1) Was Polish government-in-exile (anti-communist and often denounced as antisemite) part of Jewish conspiracy? (2) Why Germans imposed death penalty on Poles helping or hiding Jews, sometimes shooting whole families (sometimes also neighbours and, in one case, burning the whole village)? (3) There are numerous testimonies about deportations from ghettoes. Where those people went?

Frankly, being Polish, and raised with the stories about German brutality, i am not found of Nazi whitewashing.

But EOT from me.

Blogger tublecane August 30, 2018 3:25 AM  

@166- What whitewashing? Is anyone ever accused of whitewashing Soviet crimes by quibbling over numbers and motives? I'm willing to believe the Nazis murdered millions of innocent civilians, and are carrying out sentences of Eternal Damnation. But the Holocaust Narrative is something else.

People too often lose perspective on the Eastern Front, obsessing over Nazi decisions with reference to some secret evil scheme as if they took place in a vacuum. The Russo-Germanic war was by sheer weight the most horrible war in human history. The Nazis were fighting a regular war (a losing war, eventually) against the Russians and an irregular war against partisans. They considered Jews a hostile alien race, not without any justification. They were shipped off to concentration camps for that reason among others. For the same reason the U.S. interred Japanese.

I am reminded of the Yugoslav war, which featured partisan gangs ethnic cleansing eachother. For some reason, the Western newsmedia and political class acted as if Serbs were doing the whole thing themselves. What about Croatsand Muslims? They had their own militias.

But no, the whole Yugoslav Narrative was Serbs genociding other poor, unfortunate ethnic groups. Including the conspiracy theory that they were rounding up and raping women to breed the enemy out. Like Edward II in Braveheart.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 30, 2018 12:16 PM  

tublecane wrote:They considered Jews a hostile alien race, not without any justification. They were shipped off to concentration camps for that reason among others. For the same reason the U.S. interred Japanese.

The interred Japanese fared very well in their camps. If the US had lost the war, they would have suffered, and some wouldn't have survived. Their guards probably would have done what they could, but when you can't feed or protect your productive civilians, the enemy nationals aren't going to be any better off.

The surprising thing is not that so many Jews died in the camps, the surprising thing is that so many survived - especially if you believe the extermination camp story.

Blogger Matthew August 30, 2018 1:33 PM  

I just wanted to say kudos to Vox for coming up with a fresh idea. The more I consider it, given my moderate but less-than-expert level of knowledge of the Holocaust, the more plausible it seems. Given the implausibility of the Germans entirely getting rid of all their Holocaust documentation, and given the curiosity of the extermination camps being only the ones the Soviets overran, it starts to feel inevitable.

But even if it's wrong, it's a brilliant insight into a possibility. Certainly superior to "Go clean your room!"

Blogger Avalanche August 31, 2018 1:05 PM  

@101 "How come no one ever talks about the shrunken heads or the lampshades anymore? Did they ever do DNA tests on those?"

Uh, no -- cause the "shrunken heads or the lampshades" didn't exist! Which I know you know; your post is great!

Blogger Avalanche August 31, 2018 1:10 PM  

@106 "Shortly after this, holocaust heresy laws that specifically excluded truth as as a defense began to proliferate rapidly, for some reason..."


"laws that specifically excluded truth as as a defense began to proliferate"

Please read that again and again and again! Carry it next to your heart. Realize that our enemies, both foreign and especially domestic, are working 24/7/365 to get that shoehorned into OUR laws and courts as well! And God knows: social media, academia, politics, among others have already taken it for action!

laws that specifically excluded truth as as a defense began to proliferate

Blogger Avalanche August 31, 2018 1:54 PM  

@160 "I once read of a chemist who went to one of the "death camps" to prove they used poison gas to kill with. After much investigation he reported that poison gas was never used in that camp. They put him in jail for doing chemistry."

This one?
Fred A. Leuchter; The Leuchter Report: The End of a Myth Samisdat Publishers (1998)

"June 13, 1991 edition of The New York Times details his agreement with prosecutors to "serve two years probation for practicing engineering without a license"


Or probably Germar Rudolf, who "studied chemistry in Bonn, graduating in 1989 with a Master's degree"

"...Rudolf's report claims that only insignificant traces of cyanide compounds can be found in the samples taken from Auschwitz. However, Richard Green and Jamie McCarthy from The Holocaust History Project have criticized the report, saying that like Fred Leuchter in the Leuchter report, Rudolf did not discriminate against the formation of iron-based cyanide compounds"

Blogger Avalanche August 31, 2018 2:05 PM  

@169 "The surprising thing is not that so many Jews died in the camps, the surprising thing is that so many survived - especially if you believe the extermination camp story."

And the hundreds of thousands, or is it millions, of Jews and jewish descendants who have gotten and are getting reparations!!

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella August 31, 2018 4:01 PM  

The Bolsheviks drowned people. Ferries out into the bay, then sink the ferry. No one else has deliberately done that.

Communists in Greece would throw bodies into the sewer, blocking the water supply. Again, communists are filthy people.

Most of the world has an intuitive reverence for fresh running water.

There are signatures for a culture: poisoning wells really is a signature move by one particular tribe.

Breaking up cisterns is more widespread, but it's not a move against a natural thing. It's breaking a man-made contrivance.

Nymphs, most people believe in nymphs, water-sprites, feeries, willies, whatever Mongols call water-spirits, etc.

Only one tribe is without reverence and care for the natural world.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella August 31, 2018 4:01 PM  

The Bolsheviks drowned people. Ferries out into the bay, then sink the ferry. No one else has deliberately done that.

Communists in Greece would throw bodies into the sewer, blocking the water supply. Again, communists are filthy people.

Most of the world has an intuitive reverence for fresh running water.

There are signatures for a culture: poisoning wells really is a signature move by one particular tribe.

Breaking up cisterns is more widespread, but it's not a move against a natural thing. It's breaking a man-made contrivance.

Nymphs, most people believe in nymphs, water-sprites, feeries, willies, whatever Mongols call water-spirits, etc.

Only one tribe is without reverence and care for the natural world.

Blogger tublecane August 31, 2018 5:27 PM  

@174- Jacobins forcibly drowned people during the French Revolution. (What is the word for that? "Deluge?") Famously, the so-called Drowning at Nantes killed thousands of people, mostly Catholic priests and nuns.

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