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Thursday, October 04, 2018

CivNat vs Nationalist

This exchange in the comments of Rorschach of Swindon's video channel perfectly explicates both the uselessness and the ultimately inimical status of the civic nationalists:
Tsaddiq: I am a classical liberal. Here in America, it has basically been rebranded as Libertarian. I think to have victory, you have to do what the Progressives did at the turn of the 20th century. Invest and invade  education. I am not going to go backwards to tribalism. That is what Progressivism has become and always was. It is an offshoot of Socialism really. The government can bring utopia. I cannot abide or play the same game. Perhaps you could disguise what you are doing to have a veneer of Tribalism. But we have to move back away from that philosophy.

Rorschach: The world has always been tribal, and no matter how many sports ball games they throw at us, and no matter how many times they pretend that we are all the same, reality and biology wins out in the end, and humanity is always going to revert back to a tribe versus tribe situation. I read history, lots and lots of history, and this little brief interlude in time is going to be seen as that stupid moment when white people tried to bring everyone together. It failed. White people were too nice, and began to be exploited, leading to a reaction (which we are beginning to see now) and a break-down of the multicultural experiment, leading to the collapse of countries and the end of the modern matriarchal welfare state. This is the end of the post WW2 period. It's interesting to live through, but things are going to get pretty brutal from here.
Civic nationalists are inherently disloyal to their nation. They are globalists lite who not only conflate the state with the nation, but elevate membership in the state above membership in the nation. Ironically, they consider themselves to be "individualists" while simultaneously elevating the state to a sacral and definitive status well beyond that of any "tribalist" they accuse of collectivism.

And their melting pottist ideology is every bit in conflict with history and observable reality as feminism, Communism, and the neo-liberal world order.

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49 Comments:

Blogger Don't Call Me Len October 04, 2018 2:10 AM  

CivNats always sound so prissy, like NeverTrumpers, when challenged: "I am not going to go backwards to tribalism."

Look, Sparklehorse, it ain't up to you, and your delusions of control are only going to make it sting worse when you are finally disabused of your inane illusions.

Blogger Steampunk Koala October 04, 2018 3:07 AM  

The bitter red pill of the ally maker now when alliances are forming or the giant red suppository of the traitor later. I am moving from a moderate-sized diverse town to a tiny rural town where I have connected friends. I look forward to watching the CivNat's diverse fruit blossom from a safe distance. Couldn't happen to nicer people.

Blogger Silly but True October 04, 2018 3:10 AM  

Lol! The amazing strategy of GE — (peace be upon him) is laid bare yet again:

By 9:00am DC time tomorrow after Feinstein reads the FBI “report” it will be impossible to determine if calls to fire Wray & disband the FBI are coming from #nevertrumpers or #Qanon #MAGA

Sun Tzu could not have strategized a more perfect condition or time to stage this battle.

Blogger Mark Seifert October 04, 2018 3:34 AM  

Don't Call Me Len wrote:Look, Sparklehorse

Say what you will about Sparklehorse, but any band who does an album inspired by the concept of a band playing inside a steampunk submarine commanded by General Lee during the Civil War can't be all bad. Of course, the Confederacy did have submarines, and we named a Washington-class sub after Lee quite awhile later.

Blogger Mark Stoval October 04, 2018 4:25 AM  

I like the following definition of nation:

A nation is a community of people who share a common language, culture, values, traditions, ethnicity, descent, and history.

The rulers of the USA have done their damnedest to make sure that the people conflate "nation" with a state like France or some such.

When I read in scripture that God will judge the nations, I don't think of Italy or France or Russia. I think of the real nations.

Blogger Wuzzums Fuzzums October 04, 2018 4:29 AM  

I find it very strange that self-proclaimed libertarians have basically split into 2 groups: the alt-right and classical liberals/liberalists/civic nationalists/skeptics//liberals/atheists/smartpeople/centrists/ moderates/individualists/buzzword/buzzword/buzzword.

If libertarianism was a valid movement, shouldn't its adherents have followed a clear single path instead of splitting in two? And why is one side defined through one term while the other side is constantly trying to rebrand itself so it's not associated with the other?

Personally I think it has to do with temperament. The alt-right is comprised of thick-skinned people whose personal worth is not derived from the opinions of others. The other side isn't. Political views don't even matter. For instance Sargon of Akkad espouses talking points that would make even an alt-righter blush however he quickly starts to virtue signal if he's in any way associated with the alt-right.

Soygoy didn't bow out because civic nationalism was unfruitful, he's not smart enough to realize this. Soygoy bowed out because the media did a few hitpieces on him that hurt his ego.

Blogger James Dixon October 04, 2018 6:05 AM  

> The government can bring utopia.

If he believes that he's lying about being a classical liberal or libertarian.

Blogger Lovekraft October 04, 2018 6:26 AM  

Granted, there are going to be flaws in any society. But the question is, which principles mitigate them the best and which prolong them?

Hard work and persistence are the cornerstones, as well as verifiability/oversight/adjustment.

Today, they don't exist. We have radical jihadis invited to share their caliphate dreams without consequence, BLM thugs picking off their enemies, the David Hogg's openly desiring communism.

So until the Sorosians present their adherence to the principles I described above, they don't get to sit at the table. The onus is on them to prove their worth.

And we all know that isn't going to happen, which is why we are seeing the slow and steady shift by the general population away from capitulation and towards more severe 'corrections.'

Blogger John Russo October 04, 2018 6:29 AM  

Back in my old Bronx neighborhood we were mainly Italian and Greek, and we carried knives.
We were replaced by the Puerto Ricans who would burn your house down.
And finally the Puerto Ricans were replaced by The albanians Who would shoot your ass dead.
Tribalism exists, it's the natural Order of Things, and anyone who denies it has not is knowingly lying.

Blogger Miguel October 04, 2018 6:30 AM  

CivNats are beings which enjoy the fruits of European Christianity but deny both.

Blogger ZhukovG October 04, 2018 6:44 AM  

Liberty can only exist within those Nations whose culture is compatible with it. Those Nations whose common language, culture, values, traditions, ethnicity, descent, and history come together to create a people capable of the self discipline that Liberty demands.

I also note that Culture, seems to have two definitions.

On the one hand Culture can mean the outward expression of a Nation's identity through Literature, Music, Painting, Architecture etc.

On the other hand Culture can be a word defined as a Nations shared language, 'culture'(first definition), values, traditions, ethnicity, descent, and history.

I typically use culture in its second context, to save typing.

Blogger Duke Norfolk October 04, 2018 6:54 AM  

James Dixon wrote:> The government can bring utopia.

If he believes that he's lying about being a classical liberal or libertarian.


Not that I'm here to defend him (far from it), but I believe that was just sloppy communication. (What's new on the internet? Don't get me started).

I think he should have put it in quotation marks to indicate it being said by previously referred to progressives/socialists. It certainly doesn't make sense otherwise.

Blogger Tim from Nashua October 04, 2018 6:56 AM  

Libertarians that I know consider borders an artificial construct in opposition to freedom, . . . but they still lock THEIR doors at night. Useless.

Blogger Duke Norfolk October 04, 2018 6:59 AM  

The denial of the human reality of tribalism and nationalism by the civ nats, et al is just as bad as the denial of reality by the feminists, et al of the left who the former so despise.

They're both delusional and ridiculous.

Blogger tublecane October 04, 2018 7:06 AM  

@12- Perhaps it was supposed to be "cannot" instead of "can."

Blogger Emmett Fitz-Hume October 04, 2018 7:14 AM  

@12 and 15

Perhaps. But back when I was a libertarian I knew quite a few libertarians who were basically leftists and only in it for the F%$# the Police/ Legalize Pot angle. And beyond that, they were as progressive as any other leftist. And no police and all the marijuana they could smoke and ingest were part of their Utopian vision.

Blogger tublecane October 04, 2018 7:16 AM  

People get hung up on silly things sometimes. Currently "tribalism" is one of them. It's a serviceable term for how the human mind is wired to socialize, but no need to take it too literally. Our "tribe" has thousands of years of civilization behind it.

Some of these people sound like hypothetical critics of the Aristotle quote about man being a political animal. "What, man was made to live in an ancient Greek city-state and nothing else? Get with the times, you old fuddy-duddy." Maybe we can be political without living in the polis of Athens circa 300 B.C.

Blogger Bastion Harm October 04, 2018 7:26 AM  

@16 Emmett Fitz-Hume wrote:@12 and 15

Perhaps. But back when I was a libertarian I knew quite a few libertarians who were basically leftists and only in it for the F%$# the Police/ Legalize Pot angle. And beyond that, they were as progressive as any other leftist. And no police and all the marijuana they could smoke and ingest were part of their Utopian vision.


This was my experience as well. The Libertarians I knew were all in it for the dope and sex. They didn't want the evil State coming in and taking away their bongs and butt plugs.

Blogger Stilicho October 04, 2018 7:28 AM  

Well, someone's bow tie is quite askew! I think VD alluded to one of the prime reasons for adherence to civnat: the adherent's fear that he would not be accepted by actual Americans. Some won't but many will if they superficially resemble the European melange that represented "American" post WWII-Pre 1965. Others generally won't or will at least be viewed with deep suspicion. It IS inherently tribal at its core, and the civnats' fear of it applied to them is an acknowledgment that tribalism is the unavoidable nature of man... no matter how much they don't like it.

A civnat complaining about nationalism is usually akin to a fat man complaining about gravity.

Blogger Emmett Fitz-Hume October 04, 2018 7:33 AM  

@19

Makes me think of the 23andMe craze. people rightly worry about who has that data (and who owns it). But what happens after things heat up?

Who of the people who took the test will be able to hide their ancestry when who ever owns the data sells it or is hacked?

Blogger Blaidd October 04, 2018 8:12 AM  

@20

Fears of these DNA sites getting hacked are probably overblown. We can dream up scenarios of gene targeting bioweapons and such but there's not really much the typical private individual can do with that information. The real threat of law enforcement secretly submitting collected DNA to ID suspects without warrants has already been realized.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd October 04, 2018 8:30 AM  

Emmett Fitz-Hume wrote:Who of the people who took the test will be able to hide their ancestry when who ever owns the data sells it or is hacked?

Seriously, why do I care about long-gone snakes in your ancestral woodpile when there are live, venomous snakes threatening my tribe right now? Do be part of my solution, don't be part of my problem, and you will never have to worry about the fictional African 5% that 23andme added to your results.

Blogger Avalanche October 04, 2018 9:04 AM  

@21 "Fears of these DNA sites getting hacked"

Hacked, hell -- WHY do people think the gene co's are actually telling the truth at all? ! We don't trust the govt -- but we trust this commercial outfit? We acknowledge the insane lying in academia -- but we think these folks are truthful? And of course Google is being honest and honorable about it, right?


"The company was founded by Linda Avey, Paul Cusenza and Anne Wojcicki in 2006 to provide genetic testing and interpretation to individual consumers. In 2007, Google invested US$3,900,000 in the company, along with Genentech, New Enterprise Associates, and Mohr Davidow Ventures."

"founded in 2006 by Paul Cusenza, Linda Avey and Anne Wojcicki. ... Now while Avey and Cusenza aren't jewish; Wojcicki most certainly is."


Anne Wojcicki: "One of her sisters, Susan Wojcicki, 49, is the CEO of YouTube and previously was a senior vice president at Google"

Blogger pnq8787 October 04, 2018 9:21 AM  

I have no sympathy for individualists.

Blogger CM October 04, 2018 9:45 AM  

They are globalists lite who not only conflate the state with the nation, but elevate membership in the state above membership in the nation.

I am familiar with this twist, with the argument basically being that "nationalism" didn't exist until the "nation state" existed, so they are basically the same and since no "state" has ever comprised solely one "nation", nationalism is really an attempt to ethnically cleanse other nationalities from the state.

I'm at a loss of how to actually respond to that. On one hand, I can see where they are coming from. On the other, it is so absurd and I can think of at least one example of a divinely ordained nation state that all Civ Nats support almost to the point of suicide the existed thousands of years before Nazi Germany. But to these people, nationalism is a late 19th century political ideology and they can't move past that artifice.

Ironically, they consider themselves to be "individualists" while simultaneously elevating the state to a sacral and definitive status well beyond that of any "tribalist" they accuse of collectivism.

I listened to an interview with a libertarian guy who basically said the nation is the means by which an individual secures his rights. I don't think he's well received by the standard lib.

Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira October 04, 2018 9:49 AM  

Imagine that there is a nation of your own somewhere out there. I have to go back!

Blogger Daniel October 04, 2018 10:23 AM  

In a vibrant society, it is a lethal disadvantage to choose to go colorbland.

Blogger English Tom October 04, 2018 11:26 AM  

@ZhukovG

I typically use culture in its second context...

The first context you used is predicated on the second, most important one.

Blogger Lance E October 04, 2018 12:26 PM  

The unifying trait of "classical liberals" seems to be a literal vacuum of knowledge of philosophy and history.

Progressivism "has become and always was" tribalism, despite being explicitly and militantly dedicated to radical egalitarianism? Progressivism is an "offshoot of socialism", despite formally predating socialism by at least half a century?

God almighty, professing to be a civ-nat or classical-liberal at this point is basically announcing to the word "I am completely ignorant but still want my opinions to be taken seriously!" I'd rather listen to progressives; at least they're not stupid, just evil.

Blogger Theproductofafineeduction October 04, 2018 12:46 PM  

@6

The other side has not yet swallowed the bitter pill, that libertianism is DOA in a multicultural open border society and they haven't over come the brainwashing of the Multikult. Eventually the will, either voluntarily or through the experience of cold hard reality.

Blogger J Van Stry October 04, 2018 1:03 PM  

It's not only going to be brutal, it's going to happen very fast. All of those folks with bugout bags are going to quickly realize that they have no way to bugout, because the roads will become impassable.

You've all seen people blocking roads here in the US because of 'injustice'. Well, what happens when those people are all armed and gunning down the 'oppressors'? The police won't be around, they'll either be guarding the elite, or covering their own butts.

California is in the process of doing away with Bail 'in the name of equality'. Think about that. They want the 'privileged people' to have to sit in jail for the 6 to 9 months it takes to go to trial. Who are the 'privileged people'? Look in a mirror.

When the balloon goes up, wherever you are, that's where you're staying. The time to vote with your feet is here, if you don't want to find yourself described in the history books as 'those unfortunates killed in the initial backlash'.

Blogger CYGNUS FACETIOUS October 04, 2018 1:07 PM  

Rorshach of Swindon was a good niche find, he was assiduously even-keeled with the imprint debacle. Then again one would hope a Briton would have some more skin-in-the-game with Rotherham actual rape gangs predating the youth of the nation in the Land of Orwell. Enoch Powell understated the gravity of the situation.

Blaidd wrote:We can dream up scenarios of gene targeting bioweapons
These exist, to the point of Putin decrying US DNA sample collection in Russia to that end. If the tinfoil element holds water, the danger may not be so much racial (beyond Africa, anyways) than rh bloodfactor and 'hybrid' lineage. That, and perhaps reconstructing biometric keys for ancient ayys tech, or quantum computing achieving real time whole world simulation together with 'the internet of things'/5G.



Blogger James Dixon October 04, 2018 2:28 PM  

> We can dream up scenarios of gene targeting bioweapons and such but there's not really much the typical private individual can do with that information.

For about the third time in the past few months, this link seems apropos: http://www.the-odin.com/diy-crispr-kit/

Blogger Servant October 04, 2018 4:31 PM  

Wouldn't you need a strain of immortal cells carrying the trait you wanted to target?

I always thoughtit was about finding the genetic markers that make you not a zogbot so they could genocide the not sheep

Blogger Sam October 04, 2018 4:48 PM  

Wuzzums Fuzzums wrote:I find it very strange that self-proclaimed libertarians have basically split into 2 groups: the alt-right and classical liberals/liberalists/civic nationalists/skeptics//liberals/atheists/smartpeople/centrists/ moderates/individualists/buzzword/buzzword/buzzword.

Every political cause is made of people who believe in it and people who joined to status signal. Those who support troops because they want the troops to know they are in their hearts and those who support troops because they want to be personally known as patriotic.

Libertarianism is no different. For people in the latter category the shift to the alt-right is interfering with their ability to social signal.

CM wrote:

I am familiar with this twist, with the argument basically being that "nationalism" didn't exist until the "nation state" existed, so they are basically the same and since no "state" has ever comprised solely one "nation", nationalism is really an attempt to ethnically cleanse other nationalities from the state.

I'm at a loss of how to actually respond to that. On one hand, I can see where they are coming from. On the other, it is so absurd and I can think of at least one example of a divinely ordained nation state that all Civ Nats support almost to the point of suicide the existed thousands of years before Nazi Germany. But to these people, nationalism is a late 19th century political ideology and they can't move past that artifice.


Counter example- ancient Greece. The Greeks lived in individual city states, but were aware of belonging to the Greek nation and cooperated against external threats.

As for ethnic cleansing, that isn't a result of nationalism, that is a result of more then 1 ethnicity living in an area. They inevitably compete and one is driven out. You had latinos ethnically cleansing black neighborhoods in LA last decade- this isn't because they are driven by loyalty to Mexico or love of Cinco de Mayo, but because they are different and in competition.

They get to ignore this uncomfortable truth and claim it is the result of bad people because of prosperity and military force allowing them to pave over issues. Eventually those will depart and the problems will reassert themselves.

Blogger Emmett Fitz-Hume October 04, 2018 5:19 PM  

@22

Never asked you to care, sport. I certainly don't that much myself. Just thought it was interesting.

Blogger fallout111 October 04, 2018 5:37 PM  

Just wanted to add that you can see a fall back to tribalism on vibrant display in the US penitentiary system, where you inevitably have to join one of the established gangs (AB, Nortenos, Suranos, Crips, etc) and embrace their ways and culture, or you find yourself all alone in a violent, dangerous captive society. Even the bulls (guards) are effectively a tribe.
Those who choose to pretend humans are not fundamentally tribal at our base have no real world experience, or have elected to ignore history and study after study.

Blogger CM October 04, 2018 7:13 PM  

Progressivism "has become and always was" tribalism, despite being explicitly and militantly dedicated to radical egalitarianism? Progressivism is an "offshoot of socialism", despite formally predating socialism by at least half a century?

Progressivism is the attempt to remake society in the image of what is valued by that group. Equality? We will make it happen. Seems more like a social ideology that utilizes politics more than a political or economic ideology, so it can exist with or without socialism. In this, cuckservatives and civiltarians are progressives, as well, believing that supporting other progressives in ousting the impolitic to their right will create a more civil society.

Question is, who helps them oust the impolitic to their left?

Either way, they are trying to mold society into their version of perfection.

Blogger Meng Greenleaf October 04, 2018 7:27 PM  

I've never met a Libertarian in person in my life. Do they advocate that all roads and public land be private? I suppose if they do then sure maybe no boarders.

Blogger Attila is my bro October 04, 2018 8:01 PM  

>>Back in my old Bronx neighborhood we were mainly Italian and Greek, and we carried knives.
We were replaced by the Puerto Ricans who would burn your house down.
And finally the Puerto Ricans were replaced by The albanians Who would shoot your ass dead. <<

Funny how that works. The people get replaced but the cultural institutions remain. They hold on for a long time partly for money, partly for nostalgia. You can still find several Italian stores on Arthur Ave and they have an Italian festival still every year. But that's mainly for tourists.

We have been to a couple of Hungarian festivals in NJ but they're the same as the Italian festival on Arthur Ave - there are hardly any Hungarians. The church is still there. The social club is still there. But all the Hungarians moved away long ago and were replaced by shitholies. I give them another decade or so before they close up for good.

Small good news: the Polish seem to be taking over Linden and pushing the shitholies out, but even though they're good neighbors, poles are still a poor substitute for Hungarians.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey October 04, 2018 9:06 PM  

@25
I am familiar with this twist, with the argument basically being that "nationalism" didn't exist until the "nation state" existed, so they are basically the same and since no "state" has ever comprised solely one "nation", nationalism is really an attempt to ethnically cleanse other nationalities from the state

The people who believe this also tend to believe that "nationalism" is the cause of all wars -- hence globalism is the solution, and will lead to lasting world peace.

Apparently either:
1. There were no wars until a couple of hundred years ago
2. Autistic focus on a narrow definition of the nation-state as something entirely new and different in history is not that useful, after all, or
3. Perhaps nationalism in the current year sense is not the "root cause" of all war.

Blogger tublecane October 04, 2018 9:37 PM  

@24- If it's a matter of acknowledging the existence and importance of individuals in a biological or psychological sense, or in the sense of an eternal soul, fine. But individualism as an ideology of philosophy doesn't make sense. We are social/political animals, and the basic social unit really must be the family.

Even Robinson Crusoe wasn't alone for long. He saw that footprint. Would've been a boring book otherwise.

Blogger tublecane October 04, 2018 9:42 PM  

@25- Maybe those people should be forced to read actual 19th-century nationalists and tell us whether they saw themselves as out to create a nation by seizing political power, or thought the nation already existed and sought to rearrange politics so that it would be fun in the nation's interest.

There may be a communication problem at work, because sometimes "nationalist" is used to refer specifically to denote a defender of a nation-state, without regard to all the other aspects of nationhood.

Blogger tublecane October 04, 2018 9:51 PM  

@35- Or you could use the example of the American colonies. Some minor variation of political, economic, religious, and ethnic organization between them. They were distinct polities who came together to fight for independence and identified as being one people. Even the Tories thought they were one, only British instead of just American.

Obviously they weren't monolithic, because they fought a massive war amongst eachother a couple generations later. But if course Ancient Greece had its brother-wars.

Blogger tublecane October 04, 2018 10:09 PM  

@29- "The unifying trait of 'classical liberal's seems to be a literal vacuum of knowledge of philosophy and history"

Yeah, maybe because it's just what you call yourself when you don't want to commit to labels that are more secure in people's minds. That way they don't laugh you off for being "one of those." "Liberal" has become a muddy term, and "classical" places it in the mysterious past.

Classical liberalism had its heyday philosophically before the 19th century, perhaps. But the age of nationalism in the mid-19th century wasn't some radical departure. These movements were related. The Founders, some of whom explicitly followed Whiggism classical liberal John Locke among others, brought the American nation to fruition. Is this not dirty, evil "tribalism?"

That paragraph is hard for me to follow. He jumps around and I take it has various unexpressed beliefs behind his statements. Or maybe he's just feeling his way through. Either way, there are missing pieces.

But I can say he identifies progressivism with tribalism for no obvious reason. Obviously the left has exploited identity politics better than our side, but that has little to do with progressivism as such. Except maybe the group trying to remake society is more likely to use tactics that set parts of society against eachother. Also less likely to appeal to common mass opinion until such time as they have conditioned it through taking control of the culture.

Blogger mike October 05, 2018 3:10 AM  

My understanding exactly

Blogger Cluebat Vanexodar October 05, 2018 1:23 PM  

Interesting book review at Quillette. I thought that I had them pegged as Peterson fanboys.

https://quillette.com/2018/10/05/the-virtue-of-nationalism-a-review/

Blogger Cluebat Vanexodar October 05, 2018 5:29 PM  

Here is another good article pondering the formation and destiny of America. I put it down in this old thread because it was grossly off-topic in the ones above. Sure hope someone reads them.

http://thedeclination.com/americas-road-ahead-part-1/

Blogger Unknown June 18, 2019 12:20 PM  

That is what Progressives believe. He stated that in speaking about Progressivism.

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