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Tuesday, October 30, 2018

Devstream: Building a New Alternative to Twitter and Gab


From the transcript of the Darkstream:

Twitter is controlled by SJWs. There is a central control there that dictates what the official perspective is, and so when they look at something like Gab, then they say, "Well, this is like Twitter,  Twitter has a core perspective there, so Gab must as well." And then they look at what the dominant influence there is, and when you go to Gab - I haven't been on it in in months - but you know, a year ago when I was on it, you could not get away from the Alt-Retards, you could not get away from the Fake Right. And so it's not surprising that Gab was universally condemned for the political perspective that you could not help but encounter there.

Nobody says the same sort of thing about Infogalactic. They kind of made a half-hearted attempt, but nobody could do that because they would go there and they would see that it just wasn't true. Because what we are doing with Infogalactic is that we're giving the control to the user. The user's perspective is what is going to ultimately define what he sees, and so it's impossible to claim that Infogalactic is Wikipedia for Nazis or Wikipedia for Communists or any of these other sort of things. You can't do it because the answer to all of it is yes. Anyone can use it, and anyone will see what it is that they prefer to see. The control is in the user's hands. We're not talking about something that is some sort of free speech thing, we're not talking about that at all, we're talking about from a basic technological point of view the perspective is under the control of the user.

I'll give you an example. If you look at any Wikipedia page, people tend to think of it as being just one page, but every page is really a vast vertical stack of pages. The problem is that the page that you see on the subject is the one that the 535 Wikipedia admins have determined is the One True Page. That is the only perspective that is permitted and if you violate that perspective they will override you, they will block you, they might even kick you off. In the case of Infogalactic what we're doing is we're taking that vertical stack and we're spreading it out and then we're allowing you to decide which of all of those pages is the one that you want to see. That's the approach we will take to all our social media efforts.


NOTE: Ironically, in light of the criticism that this approach will "lead to echo chambers", this video is the second one in succession on the Darkstream channel to have its recommendations removed. Between the rampant Big Social censorship of what can be posted on any social media or commenting system and various alternative sites and individuals being removed from the Internet, it should be apparent that you're going to be forced into an echo chamber whether you happen to find them desirable or not. The only real question is if you would prefer the perspective of the echo chamber you inhabit to be one that you choose or one that is imposed upon you by SJWs.

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54 Comments:

Blogger wired216 October 30, 2018 8:09 AM  

Which is why I support Infogalactic. My burn unit T-shirt is falling apart. How would I go about getting a new one if possible? Thanks for all you do!

Blogger wreckage October 30, 2018 8:23 AM  

All culture is an echo chamber. The only question is who controls it.

Blogger Evan Hartshorn October 30, 2018 8:39 AM  

I regret typing the words 'Echo Chamber'. I had no intention of criticizing IGS. I was trying to underline the customizable viewpoint and I chose very badly.

Blogger roo_ster October 30, 2018 8:40 AM  

The progs dont go after infogalactic because it has zero influence and is not a threat to either wikipedia or the prog message. Were it infliential or a threat it would get the gab/anglin treatment.

I do appreciate infogalactic and the effort behind it but reality is what it is.

Gab was a place where folk on the right could bounce ideas off one anither and then drop the more appealing/effective ideas in the dominant socials. And one could interact with whatever subculture one desired, as it was tune-able to ones tastes.

Blogger VD October 30, 2018 8:59 AM  

The progs dont go after infogalactic because it has zero influence and is not a threat to either wikipedia or the prog message. Were it infliential or a threat it would get the gab/anglin treatment.

Your conclusion is based on the false premise that both Gab and Anglin are a) influential or b) a threat. They are not.

Blogger Avalanche October 30, 2018 9:03 AM  

Waaay OT, but useful info? Slightly eye-opening 'proportions' in any case... Just a whole pile of interesting info:


... they identified 450,939 people who said their sexual relationships had been exclusively heterosexual and 26,890 people who reported at least one homosexual experience. ...
... The researchers performed a genome-wide association study (GWAS) in which they looked for specific variations in DNA that were more common in people who reported at least one same-sex sexual experience. ... The four newly identified genetic variants also were correlated with some mood and mental health disorders. Both men and women with the variants were more likely to have experienced major depressive disorder and schizophrenia, and women were more likely to have bipolar disorder. Ganna stressed that these findings should not be taken to mean that the variants cause the disorders. Instead, it "might be because individuals who engaged in nonheterosexual behavior are more likely to be discriminated [against], and are more likely to develop depression," he said. ...
"I'm pleased to announce there is no 'gay gene,'"...

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/10/giant-study-links-dna-variants-same-sex-behavior

Blogger Unknown October 30, 2018 9:04 AM  

The reality deviants at this site will no longer stomach talk of the God Emperor.

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?835849-New-Ban-Do-Not-Post-In-Support-of-Trump-or-his-Administration

Blogger Silent Draco October 30, 2018 9:18 AM  

It's not an echo chamber if the user is able to select and change the range of responses, or if the IG response is a moving average, or better, an aggregate of the selected response and two nearest neighbors, for example. The One Wikipeida Page Which You Shall Enjoy is the echo chamber.

If I heard correctly, and went back and replayed the first 0:25, IG query would return a set of up to 10 pages, for the author verified (locked) and the perspective pages with a 1-9 scale attached. Assuming that these page sets pull from another set of records or structures, where data with the user's desired scale get called out and inserted in the page.

With a "related" tag for something not at the user's scale value, it provides a subtle method to encourage users to look beyond a single view and look at more data. Dangerous things, those data. Someone might want to check a range of responses, instead of one view.

Blogger John Calla October 30, 2018 9:21 AM  

it should be apparent that you're going to be forced into an echo chamber whether you happen to find them desirable or not.

The political right needs to find a better strategy then. Having right-leaning speech huddled in some far-to-reach corner and out of the mainstream is a completely satisfactory result for the left. They want to take the dominance they have in the MSM and apply that same strength to the entire Internet. To hell with that. We might as well give up now if we're willing to cede that much territory.

Blogger pdwalker October 30, 2018 9:36 AM  

1/ in my opinion, Japanese spoken by a Japanese female is the most beautiful language to my ears

2/ when I look at the jordanetics cover, at a quick glance, I see a Greek philosopher wearing a laurel wreath and a white toga. Then I look closer and see the straight jacket and his hair. Maybe it’s just a trick of my imagination, but i love the effect.

3/ would love to hear more about what’s happening in the world of Infogalactic someday.

Blogger Looking Glass October 30, 2018 9:36 AM  

It's not complete, but the Squirrel Hill shooting is almost into the memory hole by Tuesday AM.

@9 John Calla

The current MSM only works when they have near total control over all channels. Defended Echo Chambers would crush their entire model, which allows us to enforce standards upon discussion. Make a better road and you'll find most will gravitate towards it, but you better be ready to defend it.

Also, the current model needs to be entirely brunt to the ground, so it's not like they're much worth saving about it.

Blogger VD October 30, 2018 9:40 AM  

Having right-leaning speech huddled in some far-to-reach corner and out of the mainstream is a completely satisfactory result for the left.

It's not at all. You clearly don't understand the nature of convergence. Think of it like White Flight and it will make more sense to you.

Blogger pyrrhus October 30, 2018 9:49 AM  

O/T Outstanding! https://www.theburningplatform.com/2018/10/30/trump-plans-to-end-birthright-citizenship-for-children-of-illegal-immigrants/

Blogger Matt Robison October 30, 2018 10:00 AM  

@9: "Having right-leaning speech huddled in some far-to-reach corner and out of the mainstream is a completely satisfactory result for the left."

It seems like someone hasn't been paying much attention. There are some who will seek out every whiff of wrong-think, to the furthest cracks of the earth. They are fundamentally immoral people, and se need constant validation that they are "in the right." Their conscience demands that they find ways to signal their virtue.

Blogger Scire October 30, 2018 10:09 AM  

The biggest problem, as i understand it, is that a twitter like business model has not been shown to make money.

Gab was/is still burning money, and not a net positive yet as i understand it.

Perhaps someone who understands these types f business models better than me can chime in.

Blogger OGRE October 30, 2018 10:28 AM  

@15 Scire

Acquiring money is not the primary motivation for a great many people. Its one reason the libertarian models--and many other economic models as well--fail in the real world; a great deal of utility cannot be represented by money or product. And there are some who would take on a great deal of personal suffering if it would result in harm to others.

Blogger Revelation Means Hope October 30, 2018 10:36 AM  

I'm listening to "Ten Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Accounts Right Now" by (((Jason Lanier))). He specifically talks about the absurdity of having a Wikipedia that shows the facts slanted to your own viewpoint. I admit, I laughed out loud when I heard that portion of the audiobook.

For those following along, this guy has been in silicon valley for decades, in the thick of things, executive, early Google collaborator, knows all the social media execs. He strongly advocates that you delete all your social media accounts, and admits numerous times in the book that he is a strong leftist Hillary supporter and Trump hater.

His ten arguments, well at least 5 of them are powerful.

You are being tracked and manipulated. Whether your account is fake or under your real name. The incredible secrecy and the computing power behind all the social media manipulation machine has been eye-opening.

Quite frankly, we have been volunteering for Satanic manipulation (my words, not his), and helping sinister forces refine their manipulation data not just on us, but on others similar to us.

Blogger Revelation Means Hope October 30, 2018 10:38 AM  

Ah yes, the point of my comment above is that he is obviously aware of Infogalactic by the way his comments were made. And yet his complete inability to see how slanted the narrative on Wikipedia is will illustrate how deluded the leftist elites are from reality.

Blogger Scire October 30, 2018 10:49 AM  

@16 OGRE

I agree, however if you plan to make something a profession, providing for your loved ones is a requirement for many people. Without a benefactor, crowdfunding, or other source of burn money, I would assume it would be difficult an expensive to run/manage such a service.

However, now that i am thinking about it, i wonder if this could work on a distributed service model, similar to bitcoin, torrents, or other distributive model.

Blogger Looking Glass October 30, 2018 10:51 AM  

Scire wrote:The biggest problem, as i understand it, is that a twitter like business model has not been shown to make money.

Gab was/is still burning money, and not a net positive yet as i understand it.

Perhaps someone who understands these types f business models better than me can chime in.


You can make money, but you have to not be stupid about it. It also requires being Profitable as a part of your entire Revenue Model. You need a hybrid model, known as "freemium", where the standard user experience is fine, but there are premium features you have to pay for. Further, you'd basically want to be an intermediary payment processor, something YouTube has only started doing. (Note: other streaming services have been doing that for nearly a decade, outside the West, so we know it works.)

You're making a "communications service provider" and need to treat it as such. Hosting as little video & images at possible, in the early going, is also important, as those would be your largest infrastructure costs by a fairly sizable margin.

Blogger Nathan Wright October 30, 2018 10:58 AM  

Pathetic, Vox. Just stop digging.

Blogger VD October 30, 2018 11:05 AM  

Pathetic, Vox. Just stop digging.

My position on this has been entirely consistent for the past year and will never change. I could not possibly care less what you happen to think about this.

Blogger Johnny October 30, 2018 11:19 AM  

Scire wrote:The biggest problem, as i understand it, is that a twitter like business model has not been shown to make money.

I take it as a given because it seems obvious to me that twitter is getting some kind of covert funding, probably by the Deep State. Perhaps they sell user data to the CIA, who knows.

Blogger Johnny October 30, 2018 11:25 AM  

I have never used the big social media stuff, but I am on a website where people can place other people on ignore, thus never see what they post. They will ban individuals from posting, but you have to get pretty disgusting to get banned. Voluntarily placing individuals on ignore is the much more common form of censorship.

Thinking not of Vox's new website, but of the more traditional social media, what occurs to me is that if they wanted to allow for less censorship, perhaps instead of banning content they should have the moderator label it. Nazi could be one label and the users could, at there discretion, choose to put Nazi content on ignore. And so on.

Blogger SidVic October 30, 2018 11:49 AM  

Vox is becoming more likable.

Blogger hotpotato October 30, 2018 11:53 AM  

I already have a solution. I've designed a decentralized protocol based around distrust. Think like Freenet except designed with the assumption that you are always being watched by someone and that your computer could always be "talking to a CIA agent" so to speak. I am a programmer but I can't possibly do the required work to produce it by myself. The bottom line is that the only way to make information free is to make it answer to no specific server or service; once it's out there, it's stored in a global distributed store (like a DHT but I've made some significant additions to the concept) and with certain exceptions, there is no way to delete anything that's out there anymore. I've come up with ways to communicate that work around most firewalls (the most obvious of which is shoveling the data over what looks like a standard HTTP "conversation") and I've considered some of the most dire scenarios in the design.

Sadly, at this time it is vaporware, only a large concept with no one to hack it.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 30, 2018 12:02 PM  

@4

"The progs dont go after infogalactic because it has zero influence and is not a threat to either wikipedia or the prog message."

That's funny, because Wikipedia sees Infogalactic as not just a threat, but the ONLY threat.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 30, 2018 12:03 PM  

Johnny wrote:I take it as a given because it seems obvious to me that twitter is getting some kind of covert funding, probably by the Deep State. Perhaps they sell user data to the CIA, who knows.
Twitter will provide you with a direct firehose to their entire datastream, if you have the money to pay for it, and several government agencies do. It's a large part of the revenue stream.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 30, 2018 12:11 PM  

@9

"
The political right needs to find a better strategy then. Having right-leaning speech huddled in some far-to-reach corner and out of the mainstream is a completely satisfactory result for the left. They want to take the dominance they have in the MSM and apply that same strength to the entire Internet. To hell with that. We might as well give up now if we're willing to cede that much territory."

It won't be long -- maybe a couple years, but it will happen -- before Trump and his people slam down hard on the corporations who ban people on the basis of expressing political views that the owners don't like.

You can't get checkmate on the first move.

Blogger Looking Glass October 30, 2018 12:14 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:Johnny wrote:I take it as a given because it seems obvious to me that twitter is getting some kind of covert funding, probably by the Deep State. Perhaps they sell user data to the CIA, who knows.

Twitter will provide you with a direct firehose to their entire datastream, if you have the money to pay for it, and several government agencies do. It's a large part of the revenue stream.


At this point, I'm pretty sure it's the only major revenue stream for most of Silicon Valley. They hide it as Ad Revenue, mostly, but they aren't serving enough Ads for the numbers they claim.

Blogger Looking Glass October 30, 2018 12:15 PM  

@29 Dirk Manly

Unless you drop a nuke on them.

Blogger Jackie Chun October 30, 2018 12:16 PM  

So infogalactic will have multiple versions of the same page to view? I don't see any buttons like that on the articles.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 30, 2018 12:23 PM  

@24

"Thinking not of Vox's new website, but of the more traditional social media, what occurs to me is that if they wanted to allow for less censorship, perhaps instead of banning content they should have the moderator label it. Nazi could be one label and the users could, at there discretion, choose to put Nazi content on ignore. And so on. "

Too easily abused.

A smart, abusive monitor, will play it straight for a couple of years, if need be, to guarantee that people trust the "[insert badthink label here]" to be accurate. Once the trust is gained, the monitor then starts labelling everything he/she doesn't like as some form of badthink or another.

Blogger Gallant October 30, 2018 12:39 PM  

Are you aiming to get onto the mobile app stores? A lot of the population computes via apps. I think Gab's was blocked due to not having recourse for the platform owners to handle content complaints; but you could just face the SJW 'not allowed because unspecified'. . . .

Blogger Doktor Jeep October 30, 2018 12:47 PM  

There is going to be an echo chamber whether we want one or not. So let's have our own.

Besides, if all we have is "left wing echo chamber" and then everybody to the right of Stalin is banned from it, then the left gets a place to plot and plan and the right gets left out in the wind.


As for a new social media - an idea that's been rattling in my head is this: Allow actual ownership of user content and then take a percentage for providing the service. This would be the opposite - more so actually - than what the robber baron insurgent big socials do not. If I had the capability, I would allow a "myspace" like setup with video capability, like a cross between facebook and youtube, but allow advertiser content to go to the user and the user even gets to control what gets shown, which banner ads. I would take only a percentage to run the operation - though a profit would be nice of course - generally speaking. User ownership first, landlord takes a percentage - I think people will like that. From the perspective of "do it like Faceberg" the only thing being given up in this model is not raking in the money like a Koch brother and using it to push leftism all over the planet. But imagine if content creators had such a service and how many would use it and how much freedom would be at hand for it?
Of course I would not allow porn and pushing for political violence,etc. Not because I would cuck I just don't want degenerates, antifa, and alt-retards turning my sandbox into a litterbox.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 30, 2018 12:49 PM  

@32

"So infogalactic will have multiple versions of the same page to view? I don't see any buttons like that on the articles."

Point of grammar.

"will have" != "now has"

Blogger Doktor Jeep October 30, 2018 12:53 PM  

Oh and I forget.
VD you have my sword.

Blogger eclecticme October 30, 2018 12:55 PM  

It never occured to me until now that someone might buy the Jordanetics book thinking it was a fan book.
"There's just no getting through to the highly perceptive." - PJ O'Rourke

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener October 30, 2018 3:39 PM  

"It won't be long -- maybe a couple years, but it will happen -- before Trump and his people slam down hard on the corporations who ban people on the basis of expressing political views that the owners don't like."

Simply refusing to bail them out during the next crash will probably do the trick.

Blogger Lance E October 30, 2018 4:44 PM  

@hotpotato: be the change you want to see. There are approximately zero quality programmers seriously interested in turning someone else's vaporware into reality without the promise of a substantial paycheck.

Ideas are a dime a dozen; execution is everything. Even a half-baked proof of concept is going to generate more interest.

Personally, I can't see the value in a product that tries to make content un-deletable. To the contrary, concerns over both opsec and legal issues (defamation, CP, etc.) demand exactly the opposite. Snapchat covered this requirement well, although they targeted a very narrow niche.

Blogger Damelon Brinn October 30, 2018 5:12 PM  

@hotpotato, Are you familiar with IPFS? Your concept of a distributed data store sounds a lot like what they're doing.

In half-related news, there's an interesting claim out there today that a major tech firm was/is paying NeverTrump magazines to suppress stories positive for Trump. Hoping that one breaks; it could embarrass some very worthy parties on both ends.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 30, 2018 5:13 PM  

@26 hotpotato

If you're smart enough to design this protocol, then you're smart enough to develop a text-only version to demonstrate the idea.

The problem is... most people want things to be forgotten after a few years (say 7) unless they've specifically been saved by themself, or made the effort to archive them on an archive site.

There's some old stuff from usenet that, in this current year of the leftist omni-inquisition, doesn't look good, although it was well within the bounds of normal discussion when they were written.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 30, 2018 5:21 PM  

*themselves

Blogger IGnatius T Foobar October 30, 2018 6:16 PM  

Any online service which has one or more choke points will have them choked by the SJW thought police. The fact that they are now pressuring domain registrars, hosting providers, and payment processors to remove wrongthinkers from the Internet means that it's time for conservatives to up our game. Individual sites for conservatives are no longer long-term sustainable; at this point we MUST move to the distributed model that has been the holy grail of facebook-alternatives for a long time now. Things like StatusNet and Mastodon are going to become ever more important because if conservatives are gathering in a single place, that single place will be targeted by the gestapo.

Blogger weka October 30, 2018 6:36 PM  

Or like the driving of believers to the Calvinist or Pentecostal if protestants, and to Latin Masses if Catholic.

Emotional reaction plus a narrative of lies will force people to vote. With their feet

Blogger PragmaticTroll October 30, 2018 9:33 PM  

Vox, any chance you still have a copy of your Russia/Japan economic comparison paper you mentioned? I think many of us would love to read it.

Blogger MendoScot October 30, 2018 11:14 PM  

It's not just censorship.
Your last two Darkstreams that I watched have had only 4 recommended, and all were children's videos.
Most of what I watch are music videos, and most of the recommendations are videos that I have already watched.
The noose tightens.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 31, 2018 12:33 AM  

Russia has every natural resource needed for a complete economy. Their problem is their people are very thinly dispersed where most of the important minerals are found. For them, trade is for the procurement of luxury items, or higher quality foreign manufacturers.

Japan is the opposite. Japan generally lacks resources, although who knows what is in those mountains -- it doesn't seem that they've been assayed much. Obviously there has been some iron mining, as they were making steel swords in there centuries of seclusion before being forcefully opened by Commodore Perry's fleet in 1853, but not enough for an industrial economy. One of Japan's primary targets in the 1930s invasion of mainland Asia was Korea's iron mines.

(On a trip to Korea for the Team Spirit exercise in 2013, we flew down the center of Japan before landing at Osaka and transferring planes for the last leg. Those are the most inhospitable looking mountains I have ever flown over. Huge blocks of bare rock laying at all sorts of odd angles.)

Blogger Geoarrge October 31, 2018 1:55 AM  

Andrew Torba is now probably about 90% of the way to catching himself saying that he would burn down the world to stop a threat to his family.

Blogger Joseph Maroney October 31, 2018 2:34 AM  

"You are being tracked and manipulated. Whether your account is fake or under your real name. The incredible secrecy and the computing power behind all the social media manipulation machine has been eye-opening. "

And it's also the participation in their machine-learning algorithms to increase the IQ of the technium.

Blogger VD October 31, 2018 8:59 AM  

Vox, any chance you still have a copy of your Russia/Japan economic comparison paper you mentioned? I think many of us would love to read it.

I have it, but not in digital format. It's neither particularly interesting nor insightful. It's just competent regurgitation of conventional economics and economic history.

Blogger PragmaticTroll November 01, 2018 9:49 AM  

VD wrote:Vox, any chance you still have a copy of your Russia/Japan economic comparison paper you mentioned? I think many of us would love to read it.

I have it, but not in digital format. It's neither particularly interesting nor insightful. It's just competent regurgitation of conventional economics and economic history.


If they found a lost Beethoven concerto and refused to release it because Beethoven wrote that it was "not particularly interesting" and "just competent regurgitation" there would be riots.

Blogger Dirk Manly November 01, 2018 9:59 PM  

You're that reads like you are attempting to shsame Vox into taking time out of his very busy schedule, to type up a manuscript which, by his description, is mundane, because it contains no observations that you can't get elsewhere.

Economics isn't hard or mystical (much as Malcolm Gladwell would like you to think that it requires an extremely keen eye).

If you don't understand economics, read Thomas Sowell's book on the subject. It covers both Keynesian economics as well as the alternative "Austrian School" and "Chicago School."

How easy is economics? When I took my economics courses in the Krannert School of Business at Purdue, I spent my lectures doing calculus-based analog electrical engineering homework problems. Literally.

In all 3 of the econ classes I took (Basic Macroeconomics, and Basic Microeconomics, and another one(*) which I can't remember at the moment -- because I literally don't even remember attending that class -- everything seemed like logical, non-starting conclusions based on the foundation level-class. Of course, once you've had differential equations, most any course which uses only algebra, and is aimed at students who, by and large, don't even have the pre-requisites to be admitted to a diff-eq course is going to seem extremely obvious once you've been introducted to a couple foundation-level equations), I didn't bother reading the textbook (because the lectures were clear enough), the homework I was something I did to keep busy while eating lunch or dinner, and I missed less than 5% of the test questions. The only effort I put into the class was nothing more than sitting my seat IN the classroom where the lecture, spending 15 minutes two days/week, and copy down whatever the lecturer put on the dry erase board (funny -- each of the schools of electrical engineering, mechanical engineer, physics, and chemistry were still using blackboards, and had screens for overhead projectors. Only one class, digital logic, used the overhead projector... and that was so that the prof could draw lines on copies of "Dr. Dave's Class Notes" (the only text required in the class) to show how various circuits to achieve practical tasks (addition, subtraction, multiplication, converting > 2^n signal lines > n signal lines... and back again, etc.) from the component circuits presented in Dr. Dave's notes. And Digital Logic can be taught to any typical high-school kid who has the capability to count to 10 and isn't in any sort of disabled learner's program -- and I'm sure a lot of disabled learners could be taught digital logic, too.

(*) I believe it was Advanced Micro -- I'm bedridden for the next week or so, recovering from a rather painful surgery this morning -- so I can't get up to find my transcripts from Purdue)

Blogger Dirk Manly November 01, 2018 10:04 PM  

weird brain-fart.

"everything seemed like logical, non-starting conclusions based on the foundation level-class"

should be

"everything seemed like fairly obvious logical conclusions, corollaries, and consequences based on the foundation-level cass."

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