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Wednesday, November 14, 2018

Paypal deplatforms BitChute

It doesn't matter how neutral or moderate you attempt to present yourself, if you have not submitted to the SJW narrative, you WILL be targeted and deplatformed:
A few hours ago BitChute received a notice that our PayPal account has been permanently limited, with immediate effect, and that we will no longer be able to accept or send payments.

The notice included the following information: “The User Agreement for PayPal Service states that PayPal, at its sole discretion, reserves the right to limit an account for any violation of the User Agreement, including the Acceptable Use Policy.” This decision seems to be final although we will try to appeal.

BitChute has had a Paypal account since 2016, we have used it to settle payments and to receive subscription payments from supporters along with other discretionary payments. It’s our belief that it is our stand against the current trend in censorship that has resulted in this action.
I suspect that BitChute was deplatformed because they offer an alternative to Paypal's SJW ally YouTube. In the end, everyone to the right of CNN will be deplatformed by Paypal. You must take the Mark of the Beast if you wish to buy or sell, after all.

This is wrong, of course. But from an economic point of view, it is disastrous. Far from being the pathway to the future, the Internet economy has become an unpredictable, unreliable Third World economy.

Labels: ,

110 Comments:

Blogger The Deplorable Podunk Ken Ramsey November 14, 2018 1:29 PM  

2016 was when PayPal came out against the people of North Carolina in the favor of transsexuals and man-parts in girls' locker rooms. It should have been obvious to everybody then to drop PayPal like a rock and never develop dependencies with them. What was BitChute thinking?

Several folks I know chafed at the PayPal dependency even back then, but elected to remain under the yoke because of access to eBay. That's the natural tendency, to grumble and protest yet remain under the yoke. This behavior only enables further dependency if you ask me. Will PayPal et al. wake up one day and suddenly resolve themselves to abandon their petty tyrannies? No, I don't think so. They rather wake up each day eager to see what more they can get away with, how much more they can pile upon their unwilling subjects who groan and grumble but take it.

Blogger Lyon November 14, 2018 1:32 PM  

How does this end well for all or even any party involved? But that is the point.

Above the fray, it's a divide and conquer move, and as each side goes to war with the other our shared adversary believes it will come out on top. What a fool.

Blogger Dirk Manly November 14, 2018 1:35 PM  

SJW-ism seems to have a very high proportion of BPD's. BPD's are self-destructive. Even as they wear a mask of "I'm better and smarter than everyone else on the ENTIRE FREAKING PLANET!!!" on the inside, they are chock-full of trauma-induced self-loathing.

Blogger Jack Ward November 14, 2018 1:37 PM  

If this keeps up, Vox, you may end up a financial mogul as well as the savior of the internet credibility. You may have to buy the property next to you and set up the business end of Dark Lord, inc.
Go for it Dude; in so far as possible, we will try to watch your back. You may have to end up hiring ex operators from the Seals, etc. to do security for your self and associates.

Blogger Yordan Yordanov November 14, 2018 1:38 PM  

It's fascinating to think on how much assumption Libertarian / AnCap philosophy rests on. First you assume the business cares more about the bottom dollar, then you assume no monopoly can get big enough to fuck over society, third you assume something can come out of nowhere and displace it.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine November 14, 2018 1:38 PM  

@Dirk, by BPD, do you not mean Bi-Polar Disorder?

Blogger Mr. Bee November 14, 2018 1:39 PM  

Great timing after the election. Too bad the Republi-cucks didn't move to break up the monopolies when they had the chance.

Blogger Max Boivin November 14, 2018 2:01 PM  

So, if we want to have our own website our online business we'll have to develop our own payment processor and banking system... we already did: bitcoin. Now we just need to adopt it.
Yes, I know, it's complicated, it's not convenient. Get over it! The more people use it, the more convenient it will become.

Blogger Dirk Manly November 14, 2018 2:05 PM  

@6

No, Borderline Personality Disorder

(Which, unfortunately, is often mis-diagnosed as Bi-Polar Disorder).

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer November 14, 2018 2:07 PM  

bitcoin

Will be outlawed one second after it is perceived as threatening the status quo.

Blogger Jeffrey Johnson November 14, 2018 2:08 PM  

E-commerce has always been a third world economy where the big websites screw over their users. I graduated college in 2008 at the start of the financial mess. Nobody was hiring so I started selling stuff out of my parent's garage on EBAY. And you know what? I started making good money. After about 6 months I was building my business and starting to make about 5 grand a month.

Then in early 2009, EBAY changed their terms of service on all of us vendors. They massively increased their fees and forced all of us to use Paypal exclusively. They changed their search algorithm, making it nearly impossible for smaller vendors to get noticed unless you bought incredibly expensive advertising. On top of that before the changes, EBAY would put your product listing up on Google and you would usually be on the first page. After the changes, our products were no longer listed on Google and if you wanted that, then you had to pay for it separately.

These tech companies have been screwing over their users for at least a decade that I know of. They are incredibly amoral and unethical.

Blogger Yordan Yordanov November 14, 2018 2:09 PM  

@7

Why would the Republicans ever move against these monopolies? They are bought and payed for, not just with money, but cushy jobs after the fallout. I don't think they'll lose too much sleep over being voted out.

No one was going to risk such a payday over Alex Jones, no one is going to risk such a payday over BitChute...or anything else.

Blogger kurt9 November 14, 2018 2:12 PM  

Don't use Paypal, ever. Just don't do it. I stopped using them 3 or 4 years ago because I had no need for them and found them completely unnecessary. There is no need to ever use paypal.

I think the cryptocurrencies (Bitcoin, etc.) will come into vogue as payment methods for stuff you can't use credit cards for (like compounds from international pharmacies).

Blogger Damelon Brinn November 14, 2018 2:15 PM  

@8: Yes, wider adoption of blockchain currencies will be needed to fund tech like Bitchute that works on a similar distributed model, so both can avoid central control. There are other payment processors besides Paypal, but then you're just waiting for the banks/credit companies behind them to take an interest in you.

they offer an alternative to Paypal's SJW ally YouTube.

Yes. This isn't just SJWs spazzing out because some content offended them. As small as Bitchute is compared to YouTube, it's a real threat. These companies are protecting their position. They will have to adapt drastically to the distributed systems that are coming, which isn't something they do well. Even if they do, they won't be able to maintain their centralized control. They'll forestall that as long as they can.

Blogger justaguy November 14, 2018 2:35 PM  

# 11: I agree that the big companies are screwing over their small users for their benefit-- but it is their platform so of course they will try to make more $ off of the users. What shop owner/factory owner or other doesn't try to charge the maximum the market allows? It has always been a balance in marketing/strategy between making more $ and building a reliable customer base.

Now the de-platforming for political or strategic reasons... that has other issues. The Dems already tried this on the banks against gun shops, so as VD alluded, big brother control of the marketplace is coming. The only question is can the alternatives be built in time?

Blogger Zaklog the Great November 14, 2018 2:38 PM  

@Yourdan Yordanov

Libertarians can be amazingly short-sighted. I have heard the argument, though, and I think it’s credible even if not certainly true, that monopolies are more likely to develop out of state interference than to be curbed by the state. How do so many of these tech giants acquire power and quash competitors? By taking advantage of state power.

Blogger SirHamster November 14, 2018 2:46 PM  

This reminds me that my IG support is through PayPal. Anyone know the steps to switch to a different payment method?

Blogger Random #57 November 14, 2018 2:46 PM  

@8 Max Boivin:

So, if we want to have our own website our online business we'll have to develop our own payment processor and banking system... we already did: bitcoin. Now we just need to adopt it.
Yes, I know, it's complicated, it's not convenient. Get over it! The more people use it, the more convenient it will become.


Unless by "bitcoin" you mean cryptocurrencies in general, it'll be "more convenient" until it hits its maximum transaction rate, which is very low, between 5-10 transactions per second, according to this reference, which generally matches my memory. The keepers of that "coin" have decided it's a store of value, not a medium of exchange.

There are still huge roadblocks in the way: you will not find a more perfect combination of technical incompetence and malevolence than anywhere else in the cryptocurrency field.

For the foreseeable future, we need ways to get real currencies into and out of cryptocurrencies, and the companies that (claim to) do that range from bad to horrible to outright steal your money, or let hackers do that, or so they claim.

Unless I'm wrong there are precious few direct vendors that will accept cryptocurrencies, and fewer as time goes by due to the difficulties, tremendous volatility, and massive crash of official value in them, and per the above transaction rate problem Bitcoin is for now not viable. Can you name any hosting providers or co-los of any quality that accept cryptocurrencies?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash November 14, 2018 2:48 PM  

Ron Winkleheimer wrote:bitcoin

Will be outlawed one second after it is perceived as threatening the status quo.

No need, it's already been co-opted. Remember Silk Road?

Blogger pyrrhus November 14, 2018 2:56 PM  

Ethereum is far superior, from what I hear from my kids, but the Government can shut down anything by taxing it....

Blogger Random #57 November 14, 2018 2:58 PM  

@11 Jeffrey Johnson:

eBay destroying your business was nothing personal, Meg Whitman decided to try her hand at politics, and was replaced by one John Donahoe, from Bain & Company, which you might remember as Mitt Romeny's old company of ill repute. He and his Bain braintrust didn't understand the business they inherited, didn't like it, and tried to turn the company into a real Amazon competitor.

Which strangely enough happened in the last few years as Amazon's ... well, it's indeed a Third World type company, flooded with Third World counterfeits and fake reviews, and due to their policy of commingling if you buy something "Sold and shipped by Amazon.com" there's absolutely no guarantee it'll actually come from their supply chain. In many categories the odds are against that, something that vendors can prove if they buy the right software and hook up to Amazon's APIs.

Blogger Random #57 November 14, 2018 3:03 PM  

@20 pyrrhus:

Ethereum is far superior, from what I hear from my kids

Technically much worse, their idea for the model of an ideal language to write their smart contracts in is JavaScript, and the VM it runs on is very badly designed. I don't believe either of these problems can be fixed, at least not without a hard fork that also abandons all the old contracts.

Note my above comment about technical incompetence. Whoever came up with Bitcoin, "Satoshi" or whomever, he's a genius, at least for a first cut at the idea, but the people who've followed are anything but.

Blogger SciVo November 14, 2018 3:04 PM  

PayPal is also deplatforming UKIP. Because borders are racist, or something.

Blogger Servant of the Chief November 14, 2018 3:05 PM  

I honestly don't know how we're going to set up our alternative platforms. Not only will the enemy go for our sources of funding said platforms, if they have to (and they will), they'll just kick us off the infrastructure itself. And even if we, somehow, build up our own infrastructure (our own means of hosting our own means of access, our own means of payment processing, and on and on) they'll lock us out of the economic system entirely if they have to or just get the state to stamp down on us.

Flatly stated, I don't disagree with Vox about the problems we face here or our need for alternative platforms we control. I am of the opinion we simply won't be allowed to run them. It will literally have to come down to war first before we can actually get any steam behind our own platform building.

Blogger Lance E November 14, 2018 3:05 PM  

America hasn't technically been "capitalist" for a long time, but I think it's time we dropped even the pretense that it is. The two pillars of capitalism are property rights and contracts, and contracts are no longer worth the paper they're printed on.

Marriage, financial services, even retail... a contract is no longer a contract unless you have the power to enforce it yourself.

Blogger Rex Leroy King November 14, 2018 3:07 PM  

Random #57 wrote:Technically much worse, their idea for the model of an ideal language to write their smart contracts in is JavaScript, and the VM it runs on is very badly designed. I don't believe either of these problems can be fixed, at least not without a hard fork that also abandons all the old contracts.

The only thing I liked about Bitcoin was that their contract language was basically a FORTH. Easy to reason about, if not easy for street-shitters to program. (hey that's a feature)

Blogger Rex Leroy King November 14, 2018 3:09 PM  

Servant of the Chief wrote:I honestly don't know how we're going to set up our alternative platforms. Not only will the enemy go for our sources of funding said platforms, if they have to (and they will), they'll just kick us off the infrastructure itself. And even if we, somehow, build up our own infrastructure (our own means of hosting our own means of access, our own means of payment processing, and on and on) they'll lock us out of the economic system entirely if they have to or just get the state to stamp down on us.

I heard that a Chinese meat processing plant is trying to pay back debts in ham.

Blogger Unknown November 14, 2018 3:19 PM  

Paypal has been enemy held territory for a long time. Circa 2002-2003 they banned firearm accessory dealers from using the service and froze many of their accounts when they did so, locking tens of thousands of dollars up in limbo.

Why Bitchute decided to settle on their service as their primary funding mechanism I don't know. If I wanted the convenience of electronic transfer of funds, I would give out a bank account and routing number to give to supporters so those supporters can arrange bank transfers from their own bank accounts. This cuts out the middleman fee that Paypal charges, and cannot be deplatformed. How well that would work with international funds, I do not know.

Blogger Zizzy Balluba November 14, 2018 3:20 PM  

ironically as Bitcoin price takes an over 10% drop today

Blogger Jeffrey Johnson November 14, 2018 3:23 PM  

@21

Bain Capital is so freaking evil. They really have the attitude of "sorry about torpedoing your business, we needed to increase profits 3% this quarter. You understand, it's nothing personal; it's strictly business." Think about all the lives they've ruined with closing factories and sending the jobs to China and all the retail businesses they destroyed by loading the parent company up with high interest debt. They are probably one of the bigger indirect causes of the opioid epidemic that kills 70,000 people a year. Bain Capital literally is more evil and degenerate than the mafia.

Blogger Eric I. Gatera. November 14, 2018 3:24 PM  

"You must take the Mark of the Beast if you wish to buy or sell, after all."

Sounds Ominous! Apocalyptic even!

Blogger Random #57 November 14, 2018 3:24 PM  

@19. Snidely Whiplash:

No need [to outlaw Bitcoin], it's already been co-opted. Remember Silk Road?

If there's a relevant lesson from Silk Road or subsequent developments, it's that Bitcoin transactions are anything but anonymous. In fact, if you're trying to avoid the Eye of Soros they're far worse, since the blockchain history is visible to all.

And this is very very bad if you're trying to "build your own infrastructure" that's anti-fragile from SJW attacks. Oh, yeah, the people running these crytocurrencies, I remember Etherium in particular, Tor as well, child porn, human trafficking, murder for hire? No Problem!. But "Alt-Right" after Charlottesville? If they could have come up with a way of shutting you down, they would have.

In general, for our purposes, I think we're better off avoiding these Dunning-Krugerrands unless you really are smart enough, and have enough domain experience to evaluate them, or until the domain shakes out and we get one or more that really works, and is big enough we won't have to use 3rd parties to move lots of fiat currency into and out of them. Those 3rd parties of course hating us as much as PayPal, to the extent they aren't just crooks.

Snail mailing currency or checks is frankly better and less complicated, although there are issues with doing currency in large amounts. For example, someone in the US receiving such has to be very careful if the amounts he deposits are anywhere near $10,000 to avoid giving the impression of structuring, or otherwise "suspicious", "asset forfeiture" is an issue (getting more of that Third World vibe), etc. But for an ordinary person sending it through mail systems that are as reliable as the USPS? Make a case cryptocurrencies are better, and don't forget the privacy angle.

Blogger Jack Ward November 14, 2018 3:27 PM  

@ 24 Servant.
'Flatly stated, I don't disagree with Vox about the problems we face here or our need for alternative platforms we control. I am of the opinion we simply won't be allowed to run them. It will literally have to come down to war first before we can actually get any steam behind our own platform building.'

Know what it sounds like to me? It sounds like the beginning of righteous justification for secession and setup of an economic and political entity that makes sense; a true capitalist entity that is rigorously kept free of the shit that we are all screaming about.
That's what it sounds like. May God give us strength and moral certainty of purpose.
So say I...

Blogger Random #57 November 14, 2018 3:40 PM  

@24 Servant of the Chief:

I honestly don't know how we're going to set up our alternative platforms. Not only will the enemy go for our sources of funding said platforms, if they have to (and they will), they'll just kick us off the infrastructure itself.

Right down to Internet routing, which is trivially done all the time as accidents in announcing BGP routing, the claimed mistake, and the scary thing is that's entirely credible, that Nigerian ISP just made with Google traffic.

I see us playing games of wack-a-mole until war intervenes, and it pretty much will have to if we're shut out of the modern public square and don't want to end up in mass graves. But in the second most optimistic scenario after making pyramids of California Bay area tech skulls, we'll just have to make our own parallel infrastructure down to the "wires" our Internet runs on. Those of us in Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) development who are to the right of Mao? We're thinking harder and harder about it right now, we can see our being shut down on the not too distant horizon.

Fortunately this isn't extremely hard, in fact it's a lot easier than coming up with a practical cryptocurrency, seeing as we've already done it many ways at many times before the Internet absorbed pretty much all other networks, and computer power at the levels needed is dirty cheap. We might also be able to lease lines from regulated utilities instead of entirely depending on wireless methods.

Extra bonus: web pages won't be able to afford to load megabytes of garbage just to display some text.

Blogger Lurker November 14, 2018 3:46 PM  

"You must take the Mark of the Beast if you wish to buy or sell, after all."

The NPCs will follow the bible er, ummm.. script because they're so edgy and "rebellious".

LOL.

Blogger Longtime Lurker November 14, 2018 3:58 PM  

I'm half way through Destroying Progressivism: A Strategy by Jefferson White. It's a concise tour de force of the technological alternatives to Big Tech. He talks about immediate strategies (much of which Vox and others have discussed here) and then shifts to longer-term possibilities such as Urbit, smart contracts, blockchain, cryptocurrencies, Ethereum, and Hashgraph.

White lists infogalactic.org and everipedia.org as the two alternatives to Wikipedia, BTW.

And yes, this work can be purchased on Amazon.com.

Blogger John Morris November 14, 2018 4:01 PM  

Seems we still don't have the answer to the only question that matters, but we kinda do by observing zero new payment processors have even tried to launch. Is the problem Paypal / Stripe or is it Visa/MC?

Replacing Paypal is not really a major task. If it is Visa it is essentially the FED itself and war our only alternative since that is just some fancy sophistry around saying the government has declared war on a segment of the population and intends to starve it into submission.

And no, crypto isn't the solution. Try thinking for a moment. Crypto is currently like the Internet in the 1990s, mostly unregulated, untaxed and being left along by the powers that be to see what happens. Once they decide they don't like what is happening crypto will experience the exact same thing as the Internet when they shout "SHUT IT DOWN!"

Before anyone spergs and starts sputtering in rage, stop and try to answer one question. In what way is crypto, as envisioned by the usual Libertarian suspects, distinguishable from money laundering? Do you think all those laws will simply vanish in a puff of magical crypto fairy dust? Those laws exist so the powerful can maintain control over the not powerful.

Crypto is a distraction, something for us to dream of and waste effort on instead of trying to solve the actual problem. The problem is our government is declaring we may not buy nor sell goods, that we are unpersons. We either push back and force them to yield enough ground for us to build a way to do business or we are quickly going to find ourselves extinct.

Blogger Longtime Lurker November 14, 2018 4:06 PM  

@37: With both Venezuela and Iran developing cryptocurrencies to escape the reach of U.S. sanctions, the USG has even more incentive to crackdown on cryptocurrencies.

Blogger Damelon Brinn November 14, 2018 4:33 PM  

Why Bitchute decided to settle on [Paypal] as their primary funding mechanism I don't know.

Probably for the same reason everyone else does: it's very easy for people to send you money that way, including small amounts, and the easier it is the more you get. Obviously you should have a backup plan, but if using a service like Paypal makes the difference between growing your business or not, you use what works and work on expanding your options in the meantime.

Blogger Sagramore November 14, 2018 4:35 PM  

Finance is showing their true colours.

@10 @32 @37 @38 Mentioning crypto inside a chartered bank is like mentioning explosives in an airport, with similar results. I maintain a Chinese wall between fiat and buttcoins and never the twain shall meet (although I bought some BTC with Visa, so if the taxman really wanted to come after me...)

Aside: I just bought government cannabis today from a government store with a Interac debit card(not the first time but the first time legally, lol) while grey market dispensary owners in both Canada and the US are losing their bank accounts left and right. There is a reason credit unions in BC have so much growth.

Blogger Wuzzums Fuzzums November 14, 2018 4:41 PM  

John Morris wrote:Is the problem Paypal / Stripe or is it Visa/MC?

PayPal has been banning accounts left and right since its inception. It always avoided controversy by banning any account that's "out there". Any complaint filed to PayPal has a high probability of getting someone banned.

So I agree the real issue is Visa/MC. We already saw them pressure Patreon to deplatform people they don't like. Regardless of what PayPal does it's still an intermediary so it doesn't matter in the long run.

Neither does crypto because so far it acts as an intermediary just like PayPal if you want to actually buy stuff. As long as they can trace the money back to a name you are a target. I believe the way of the future is crypto because it's anonymous. They can't ban what they cannot identify.


John Morris wrote:We either push back and force them to yield enough ground for us to build a way to do business or we are quickly going to find ourselves extinct.

Yeah, we need to buy us more time in order to build a viable infrastructure faster than they can unperson us. Help us, Trump!

Blogger Up from the pond November 14, 2018 4:45 PM  

John Morris wrote:The problem is our government is declaring we may not buy nor sell goods, that we are unpersons. We either push back and force them to yield enough ground for us to build a way to do business or we are quickly going to find ourselves extinct.

Exactly.

And since the G-E and Injustice Department are AWOL on this and many other things, it's time to do the pushback ourselves. It is time for [REDACTED]. We're already in a Civil War. It's just that our side has not fought back.

Blogger Nate73 November 14, 2018 4:52 PM  

On a sidenote, I was reading a programming blog today and good lord do they use "seems to", "seems like", a lot etc. The funny part is I can't tell if it's because gammas are prevalent in tech generally or it's simply the nature of technology discussions that lots of things are uncertain.

Blogger Pierre Truc November 14, 2018 4:52 PM  

Yordan Yordanov wrote:It's fascinating to think on how much assumption Libertarian / AnCap philosophy rests on.

Indeed. I was talking with one who swore there was absolutely nothing wrong with outsourcing your entire food production to another country as long as it is more "economically efficient".

Blogger Pierre Truc November 14, 2018 4:59 PM  

Nate73 wrote:On a sidenote, I was reading a programming blog today and good lord do they use "seems to", "seems like", a lot etc.

"There seems to be a pattern in the data" or "Looks like there is a trend" is fine.

The gamma tell is saying "It seems you're an idiot"... Or even more icky, sniveling passive-aggressive, something like "It seems you lack knowledge about..." Eeeeew. Just no.

Another one is "We *really* need to have a talk about problematic subject X." Cuz they don't have the testicular fortitude to call it like it is, ie "I'm gonna grandstand and lecture you about subject X which is completely irrelevant but I need to feel useful right now." Eeeeew.

Blogger Random #57 November 14, 2018 5:07 PM  

@41 Wuzzums Fuzzums:

PayPal has been banning accounts left and right since its inception. It always avoided controversy by banning any account that's "out there". Any complaint filed to PayPal has a high probability of getting someone banned.

Its said they've survived when others haven't because their fraud detection is so aggressive.

So I agree the real issue is Visa/MC.

There have been multiple reports that its Mastercard. Capturing one or both of these two giants is an obvious plum for SJWs, they've got enough pull to force any payment processor like PayPal to ditch a customer.

But didn't we learn we're already in a state of war from Project Chokepoint, which ostensibly was going after payday loan companies, but also extended its reach to companies in the gun industry? Some banks have also been doing that, Home Depot can't understand why I canceled their card administered by one of these.

Blogger English Tom November 14, 2018 5:08 PM  

@Azure

Borderline Personality Disorder, AKA whack jobs and fuck ups.

Blogger English Tom November 14, 2018 5:09 PM  

@Dirk Manly

Bi-polar disorder, also known as manic-depressive disorder.

Blogger John Morris November 14, 2018 5:16 PM  

Nate73 wrote:... that lots of things are uncertain.

Ya think? Look at modern tech. Semi-skilled "programmers" slam together a bunch of frameworks they don't pretend to understand into a glop with some code of their own into a container to try to mitigate the inevitable disater. That gets stuffed into a VM with known and growing more dire by the day security implications. The VM is spinning on a physical machine somewhere (and subject to change moment by moment) out in The Cloud. The startup running this has an imaginary number as a market valuation. Billions of dollars move daily through all this mess somehow.

What part of any of this makes the slightest sense? This. is.. Clown world!

Blogger tz November 14, 2018 5:19 PM  

Bitcoin is not anonymous, nor is it stable, and even has a hard fork to Bitcoin Cash that some are promoting (and if you have pre split bitcoin, you have both).

Etherium is a very badly implemented good idea - see above about the javascript contracts. The problem is fixing real problems like locked coins requires a hard fork from the point it was detected (and then do you replay the approved transactions?).

There are others like the more open Tezos, the memory hard LiteCoin, etc. There is one with gold and silver backing called Quintric. And Tether that is supposed to have $1:Te1 backing, but isn't fully trusted and has the same liquidity problems with transactions.

The main problem with Crypto is that it is being designed by Mathematicians and Programmers and not Economists and Finance people. Many of the things were predictable but there is even more "we don't know what we don't know". When BitCoin became the rage for paying SV Starbucks, I said I'm going to wait until 2.0 or beyond when the bugs are worked out. And if you add features especially large ones like Etherium, we are still creating and finding more bugs than we are fixing.

Also BitChute started with Stripe, but about 3 months ago they were dropped.

Blogger Longtime Lurker November 14, 2018 5:23 PM  

Borderline Personality Disorder? BPD sufferers are classic troublemakers. I'm convinced that some brains are so addicted to chaos that its absence causes BPD sufferers to "act out" to restore their warped sense of normalcy.

Blogger OneWingedShark November 14, 2018 5:31 PM  

tz wrote:The main problem with Crypto is that it is being designed by Mathematicians and Programmers and not Economists and Finance people.
Given how hard econ and finance has swallowed Kenyesian economics that might not be a bad
thing, per se.

Blogger Random #57 November 14, 2018 5:49 PM  

@50 tz:

Bitcoin is not anonymous, nor is it stable, and even has a hard fork to Bitcoin Cash that some are promoting (and if you have pre split bitcoin, you have both).

And that brings up another issue with cryptocurrencies, if you're not in the money laundering camp. What do you do when a hard fork of this sort hands you a new set of Dunning-Krugerrands? You've got to report it as taxable income. Even if for technical reasons you never got yours. If its original official price was completely bogus, or you can't sell your's off before it inevitably drops, too bad, so sad. And, no, you don't get a say in this, you don't get to say I didn't want this, I didn't ask for this. Welcome to the wild west of cryptocurrencies.

Blogger Doktor Jeep November 14, 2018 5:52 PM  

The "Mark" appears to be taking shape.

Blogger Nate73 November 14, 2018 6:15 PM  

@45: haha yeah I've had that happen before, very jarring.

Blogger Wuzzums Fuzzums November 14, 2018 6:24 PM  

tz wrote:Bitcoin is not anonymous

How come?

Blogger Matthew McDaniel November 14, 2018 7:04 PM  

Daily Beast trying to tie the synagogue shooter to Posobiec today.

Blogger Arthur Tintagel November 14, 2018 7:15 PM  

now begins the mantra of "muh private company" while conservatives complain about the double standard.

Blogger Damaris Tighe November 14, 2018 7:20 PM  

These entities act like oriental potentates. no law, no predictable rules known beforehand just subjective exercise of power...
They are now just political actors out to destroy any opponents.
The more appalling the conduct of the platform corporation, the more egregious and lawless their behavior will seem to the Supreme Court.

Blogger The Pitchfork Rebel November 14, 2018 7:23 PM  

@50

"The main problem with Crypto is that it is being designed by Mathematicians and Programmers and not Economists and Finance people."

Econonomics and Finance are dominated by Math and IT, especially at the highest levels. It is routine for Wall Street to hire physicists because they are partial differential equations specialists. When I had a graduate level class in what would now be called Derivatives, it was taught by a Physics Phd. I learned a lot of equations, graphs and not all that much about how these things worked or could bite me in the a**.

It's a running joke that the Nobel Prize for Economics increasingly goes to frustrated mathematicians.

Blogger Random #57 November 14, 2018 7:23 PM  

@56 Wuzzums Fuzzums:

tz wrote:
Bitcoin is not anonymous

How come?


You can look up the details, but compare it to cryptography in the real world. First there's the base algorithms, and if you use any but the existing vetted ones, you're an idiot. Bitcoin uses the cryptographicly secure SHA-256 hash. Then there's the cryptosystem you build on top of that, here the way transactions are done, mining through proof of work, and so on. This is hard, and it says a lot that "Satoshi" got so much right with Bitcoin. Most failures of cryptosystems happen here.

But to exploit them, you generally have to look at the output of the cryptosystem as people and here their programs use it. In conventional keeping secrets cryptography, you can learn a whole lot without even reading any of the contents from traffic analysis. For example, an unwise adversary might significantly increase their encoded transmissions before an operation.

Now note that the details of each transaction are, by definition, stored on the blockchain for all to observe. That's what makes it a blockchain, after all. This should provide one clue, especially since there are always two sides to a transaction.

Blogger Damaris Tighe November 14, 2018 7:27 PM  

OT... Christian Nationalist You Tuber
Dr. Steve Turley, purveyor of sparkling white pills.
A morale builder, his channel is booming with subscribers.

This man is a cherub-faced radical.

Blogger bornagainpenguin November 14, 2018 7:44 PM  

Lurker wrote:"You must take the Mark of the Beast if you wish to buy or sell, after all."

The NPCs will follow the bible er, ummm.. script because they're so edgy and "rebellious".

LOL.


They will. They'll do it exactly as described, utterly convinced that they're mocking the God of the Bible in their actions and words, completely blinded by the reality of who and what they've become. Their need for dramatic irony will have them convinced they're just being funny and only playing around right up to the last minute.

Think of the descriptions of people in Revelations, chewing on their tongues, grinding their teeth being stung and beaten by spiritual reality and refusing to repent despite the evidence of their eyes. That's what these people are like. Demons will be stinging them and they'll chew their tongues for pain rather than admit they could have been wrong.

Blogger The Deuce November 14, 2018 7:57 PM  

Part of the solution has to be to create or use alternatives based in foreign countries that aren't beholden to the American tech press as much as possible.

Blogger wreckage November 14, 2018 8:09 PM  

So basically, the world needs a US government run credit card company operating under US constitutional mandates of freedom of speech, etc. Pretty big opportunity there for the declining fortunes of the USA.

Blogger Raker_T November 14, 2018 8:11 PM  

It would be interesting to find an outside party that didn't want the US to be taken over by the left. Yandex is to the Russian Federation what Google is to the US, and has extensive transaction services. I'm looking into whether they handle dollar transactions.
FWIW, here's a page about 10 payment processors:
https://financesonline.com/top-20-payment-gateway-providers/

Blogger Raker_T November 14, 2018 8:17 PM  

Another list of processors, international and Us:
https://www.bitbond.com/resources/payment-processors/

Blogger Random #57 November 14, 2018 8:27 PM  

@64 The Deuce:

Part of the solution has to be to create or use alternatives based in foreign countries that aren't beholden to the American tech press as much as possible.

That keeps you in the wack-a-mole game, routing from that foreign country that's now more free than the US can be easily blocked or diverted. And Mastercard is worldwide.

Blogger The Deplorable Podunk Ken Ramsey November 14, 2018 8:38 PM  

Holy Cow:

'As part of its deal with Amazon, which has based one of its new headquarters in Arlington, Virginia, the state will give Amazon two days notice of any Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests filed against it “to allow the Company to seek a protective order or other appropriate remedy.”'

Blogger Dirk Manly November 14, 2018 8:57 PM  

@25

"America hasn't technically been "capitalist" for a long time, but I think it's time we dropped even the pretense that it is. The two pillars of capitalism are property rights and contracts, and contracts are no longer worth the paper they're printed on."

America has NEVER been "Capitalist" as defined by Marx, because a "capitalist" is a strawman definition based more on being from an aristocratic family, and having large amounts of wealth made off of centuries of owning serfs.

NEVER use the term "capitalist" when talking to a Marxist or Socialist -- the moment you use that word, you have conceded to Marx's insane assumptions and definition.

The PROPER term to use is "free market economy" or "laissez fair economy." We had THAT until Franklin Roosevelt.

Blogger Dirk Manly November 14, 2018 9:18 PM  

@27

"
I heard that a Chinese meat processing plant is trying to pay back debts in ham. "

If I ran a non-Chinese company, I wouldn't touch that with a container-ship full of baby toys decorated with lead paint.

Blogger Dirk Manly November 14, 2018 9:25 PM  

@33

"Know what it sounds like to me? It sounds like the beginning of righteous justification for secession and setup of an economic and political entity that makes sense; a true capitalist entity that is rigorously kept free of the shit that we are all screaming about."

If you are not a Marxist, then ELIMINATE the word "capitalist" from your economy. The moment you use that term, you concede the argument to any and every Marxist, because Marx coined and defined the term as a strawman, DELIBERATELY DESIGNED to fall to his arguments for "scientific communism."

Don't point the known-to-be-loaded gun at your foot. EVER.

Blogger nswhorse November 14, 2018 9:37 PM  

Off topic: Creepy porn lawyer just got arrested for domestic violence. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46217085

Blogger Dirk Manly November 14, 2018 9:42 PM  

@48

"Bi-polar disorder, also known as manic-depressive disorder."

Yes, I know.

And if you do your research, you'll find that counselors are often fooled into thinking that Borderline Personality Disorder (a form of PTSD) is actually Bi-Polar Disorder (which is due to screwed up neuro-chemistry, and can be treated successfully, and permanently, with any of a variety of drugs. Lithium is VERY successful technically, but the patients generally don't like living a life with VERY flat emotional state, even when they SHOULD be exhilerated or deeply sad.

If someone doesn't improve with BiPolar meds, then they simply are not Bipolar, and most likely are actually Borderline Personality.

Blogger Dirk Manly November 14, 2018 9:47 PM  

@51

"Borderline Personality Disorder? BPD sufferers are classic troublemakers. I'm convinced that some brains are so addicted to chaos that its absence causes BPD sufferers to "act out" to restore their warped sense of normalcy. "

That is true.

The primary mechanism for maintaining/growing the BPD population is victims of BPD become BPD's themselves. Ultimately, BPD is a defensive strategy for surviving abuse from really fucked up people. The problem is, it doesn't scale well (i.e. to general use for interacting with non-BPD people).

Blogger bob kuk mando ( a Putin volunteer on the Chink payroll, i have already tried to interfere in the US elections ) November 14, 2018 9:47 PM  

OT:
this timeline is not best timeline. but by God, it is pretty damn funny.

Michael Avenatti likes to beat his wife. and we know this, because the cops like to arrest him for it.

all hail the 2020 frontrunner for the Democratic Presidential nominee.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbnCklfjUcA

Blogger LP999-16 November 14, 2018 10:48 PM  

76 Cerno reported such, thank you to our dear men: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK0EXaxFWL8

Great, I dont care for payfail-paypal.

Blogger Silly but True November 14, 2018 10:50 PM  

Hahahahaha! His damn main page is literally its own meme; go to desktop version or scroll through all his inspirational quotes on mobile version:
http://avenatti.com/

Blogger Jack Amok November 14, 2018 11:22 PM  

Ya think? Look at modern tech. Semi-skilled "programmers" slam together a bunch of frameworks they don't pretend to understand into a glop with some code of their own into a container to try to mitigate the inevitable disater.

Java and Java developers are a plague of frogs on the software industry. Or maybe boils. Not sure, I just wish it would end.

BTW, something like this with PayPal happens and the bitcon / crypto-currency fanbois double down on supporting vapor-coins? Man, there's a sucker born every minute and transacted 10 times a second.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash November 15, 2018 12:05 AM  

@78
"Don't tell me what cases you've won. Tell me who you've beaten."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Blogger SciVo November 15, 2018 12:48 AM  

Speaking of deplatforming, is the site of notorious thought-criminal RSM down for anyone else or just me? Yesterday his pages didn't have their usual Disqus comments, so I suspect progressive censorship. So to speak.

Blogger John Morris November 15, 2018 1:06 AM  

SciVo wrote:Speaking of deplatforming, is the site of notorious thought-criminal RSM down for anyone else or just me? Yesterday his pages didn't have their usual Disqus comments, so I suspect progressive censorship. So to speak.

That link doesn't work for me. Links to articles do work, the Disqus comments are missing. Clicking the home link yields the same error page as yours. So something is up but maybe not a full unpersoning. Looked at his gab page, shows activity a day ago, posting the link to an article I followed in successfully but not the usual complaints about being nuked.

So patience, hopefully a tech problem that will get fixed.

Blogger Tanjil Bren November 15, 2018 1:26 AM  

"Far from being the pathway to the future, the Internet economy has become an unpredictable, unreliable Third World economy."

Exactly.

This is because leftists do not understand what makes prosperous economies: security of personal property.

Priority ranking: first, second, and third.

Blogger SciVo November 15, 2018 2:03 AM  

John Morris wrote:So patience, hopefully a tech problem that will get fixed.

Thank you. It's sad that we've reached the point where it's entirely plausible that Disqus and even his webhost might summarily drop him for hate speech like "it's okay to be white" or "boys have a penis, girls have a vagina."

Tanjil Bren wrote:This is because leftists do not understand what makes prosperous economies: security of personal property.

That is not enough. As the free-market utopians learned when ex-Soviet Russia failed to develop into a business paradise, the critical ingredient is counterparty trustworthiness. Renege risk is a friction that prohibits deals from being made in the first place; it's worse without impartial, incorrupt civil courts, but even successful enforcement of contract terms can still entail substantial opportunity cost.

Blogger RusticFederalist November 15, 2018 2:08 AM  

What good are America's laws to the American people if they are just used to strip away the rights of the American people? What good is a military that has allowed a >90M person invasion?

clown world

Blogger InformationMerchant November 15, 2018 8:27 AM  

@5 Motivation by profit is the killer. If that was the case, the monopoly and displacement points are fine. At the moment the massive corporations are moving into food, that's been my worst case hypothetical for a while.


@10

No, that doesn't stop it.

What they did instead is what Molyneux said they would do. Barriers and hoops everywhere. Companies don't operate in some states due to the regulations.

BTC itself had massive problems for a while that rendered it unusable for this.

The vast majority of my disdain regarding Crypto as a solution is directed at Coinbase. One of the biggest crypto sites, will ban your account if you send money to people they disapprove of.


@13 Not possible for everyone. If you sell T-shirts with cats on them to NPCs on SJW sites, you use Paypal and all the other SJW sympathizers. Of the 5 ways I make money, I can only avoid using Paypal in two of them and those 2 are the least profitable 2.

This is the trap. Either you need to be employed by someone to your right that'll never be replaced with someone to your left or you work for yourself. If you work for yourself, you will likely be selling to people that don't boycott Google, Amazon, Apple, PayPal, Twitter, Facebook, etc.

I know there are other options, like pretending to be an SJW and working for Google, but that doesn't fit into the "boycott" model.

@22

Solidity is easy to learn, smart contracts vs no smart contracts, tokens vs no tokens, a platform vs just a currency, etc.

Without wanting to get into semantics, I can see why ETH could be considered superior to BTC. Obviously ETH has problems, but BTC wasn't even functioning as a currency for about a year.

I'll agree with your comment about Satoshi being a genius and the people that followed being technically incompetent, I'd also add economically incompetent in some cases. There are so many altcoins that were better than BTC after the horrific decision making that destroyed its market dominance.

@32 I agree with most of what you said, but that's why there are many altcoins designed for privacy.

There is a KYC clampdown going on, even Shapeshift is having to comply with it. I suspect local trades will be the key. Cash for BTC in person is the best way to avoid that problem with cryptos that aren't build for privacy.

Given BTC is still used overwhelmingly on Dark Web purchases, it can't be too hard to get BTC that can't be traced back to you.

Obviously, the inability to use crypto as a primary method of payment for anything other than Wikileaks indicates that having to go extra steps to be anonymous doesn't bode well for making something popular now when it was easier to use before.

@33 Sure. That suits my goals anyway, so I won't argue. I will point out that you're going to be seceding from some country due to internet based complaints.

@37

The government cannot simply shut it down. They've been throwing spanners in the works instead.

You're blaming the government for these problems as if they directly choose who can use services. You have actual evidence that it's not the US government in tons of different situations.

@56

Every transaction made is available for all to see, so every account balance is available for all to see.

This wouldn't be much of a problem if the governments of the world didn't force the exchanges to get real life information from customers. So now it's very difficult for you to buy something with BTC and the government to be unable to find out who you are.

At the same time, Swiss bank accounts aren't safe from the US government either, let alone fiat in regular banks.

At least with crypto, if you've had some for a while (bought from the right places), governments won't know how much you have.

Blogger David The Good November 15, 2018 8:36 AM  

Silly but True wrote:Hahahahaha! His damn main page is literally its own meme; go to desktop version or scroll through all his inspirational quotes on mobile version:

http://avenatti.com/


That is awesome.

Blogger Iamblichus II November 15, 2018 8:55 AM  

https://keyport.tv/


With built in Bitcoin Cash micropayments

Blogger Musashi November 15, 2018 9:05 AM  

This never-ending crap with the Left needs to be settled the old-fashioned way.

They're not going to stop and they'll never leave you alone.

Blogger Drael64 November 15, 2018 9:10 AM  

Bitchute needs to make an ETH based token system like minds.

Blogger Cloom November 15, 2018 9:23 AM  

free-market utopians

There is something wrong with that slam. It risks attacking the idea of a free market as unworkable or unfavourable, when really you only mean that a righteous Christian people with a certain tradition and morality do make a success of it.

Blogger Cloom November 15, 2018 9:50 AM  

Bitcoin just today made an important technical break down below a low that was established as stable support since five months ago. It has to recover within a day or else this is a signal of a new leg down since the exponential rise of 2017 ended. I am guessing a move down to the Sept 15, 2017 low.

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#charts

Blogger Random #57 November 15, 2018 10:32 AM  

@86 InformationMerchant:

The vast majority of my disdain regarding Crypto as a solution is directed at Coinbase. One of the biggest crypto sites, will ban your account if you send money to people they disapprove of.

It's a Y Combinator birthed company, based in San Francisco, hard to start more pozzed than that. There are also many stories from people having difficultly getting their money out of it, but right now I'm not sure there's any better company for that sort of thing, it seems de rigueur for cryptocurrency "exchanges" that really act like banks for them. It's bad enough they can't sanitize this from Wikipedia. And all this makes cruptocurrencies fatally flawed for our purposes, unless there's another exchange out there that's only a little less crooked while being apolitical. And that will also require them observing KYC.

Solidity is easy to learn

So they claim, by using JavaScript as its basis. Not Even Wrong, and should not have ever been a top goal, compared to making one easy to use without making fatal mistakes.

Without wanting to get into semantics

Like whether it or the VM is runs on is fit for purpose? The founders didn't make the slightest attempt to create a system that could be easily verified, I'm not sure they were even aware of the concept, which should have been the foundational basis for it in the first place. This stuff matters.

Then we get to governance in the face of the mistakes they made so much easier to make. See the DAO hard fork, as Wikipedia puts it, "In June 2016, users exploited a vulnerability in the DAO code to enable them to siphon off one-third of The DAO's funds to a subsidiary account. On 20 July 2016 01:20:40 PM +UTC at Block 1920000, the Ethereum community decided to hard-fork the Ethereum blockchain to restore virtually all funds to the original contract." Then back to the Ethereum page: "Ethereum subsequently forked twice in the fourth quarter of 2016 to deal with other attacks." There is so much bad this reveals that words fail, there's a reason a I've adopted the general term of Dunning-Krugerrands for cryptocurrencies.

The rest of what you say in response to my comments just further supports my position that in many cases we'd be better off snail mailing envelopes with modest amounts of cash.

Blogger SciVo November 15, 2018 11:43 AM  

Cloom wrote:free-market utopians

There is something wrong with that slam. It risks attacking the idea of a free market as unworkable or unfavourable, when really you only mean that a righteous Christian people with a certain tradition and morality do make a success of it.


A free market is, in fact, unworkable with (((free-market utopians))). They want to go straight from heavy regulation to no regulation because those are the two conditions in which it's safest to fleece marks. They are in fact quite against going back to the Anglo Christian tradition of simple regulations with minimal articulation and common-sense enforcement; even a talmudic mountain of law is better for their purposes.

Blogger SciVo November 15, 2018 12:09 PM  

I suppose that's a case where the meaning is genuinely unclear without the parentheses. Is there a term for the kind of "free trade" that involves thousand-page treaties and new layers of government, and the kind of "free market" that lets private parties run amok and impose the tyranny of the mafia instead of the tyranny of the socialist?

Just as subsidiarity is the buttress against anarcho-tyranny on the centralism axis, there is a proper mean on the market regulation axis, and I don't know its name.

Blogger Cloom November 15, 2018 12:40 PM  

SciVo, I think the correct form is free-trade within a nation, not external to the national people.

I have been listening to various alt-retards on radio shows and they have discarded free-trade in favour of socialism/fascism on the basis of ((())) arguments and some bold claims that big government is more responsive to us, and without market prices. The conclusion is of the left.

Free-trade always required competition, multiple participants to create a market price, and laws to prevent fraud. I think that should be understood within the name. That is of the right.

Blogger SciVo November 15, 2018 1:31 PM  

Cloom wrote:I have been listening to various alt-retards on radio shows and they have discarded free-trade in favour of socialism/fascism on the basis of ((())) arguments and some bold claims that big government is more responsive to us, and without market prices. The conclusion is of the left.

You can always tell a crypto-commie, because he's convinced that national socialism is No True Socialism; and to an international socialist, it isn't. But objectively it is, so of course that's where alt-retards were always destined to end up. They were never of the Right in any American sense of the term; their Alt-Right claim was always just obfuscation and well-poisoning, using false association to tar the public image of Freemen (which is socialism's true opposite and as such their enemy).

Anyway, the "free trade" term has been so folded, spindled and mutilated by cronyists that it's useless for anything but irony. Perhaps "national capitalism" would do.

Blogger Cloom November 15, 2018 1:39 PM  

@72 is worth a reread, SciVo, by Dirk Manly. I think he is correct about that.

Blogger Cloom November 15, 2018 1:41 PM  

and also reread @70 .

Blogger Tanjil Bren November 15, 2018 1:58 PM  

@84 "That is not enough."

Security of private property (private property rights) is necessarily underpinned by a robust, well understood and enforced contract law framework.

Sufficiently widespread counter party trust eventually flows from that, not vice versa.

Blogger SciVo November 15, 2018 6:30 PM  

Cloom wrote:@72 is worth a reread, SciVo, by Dirk Manly. I think he is correct about that.

Ah. Good point. I hate to abandon a word over a tendentious definition, but I also hate to waste my breath on non- or mis-communication. I'll try "freeman economy" and see if it catches on, since it carries useful connotations of anti-slavery and even anti-aristocracy, without implying support for fraud legalization.

Tanjil Bren wrote:Tanjil Bren wrote:Security of private property (private property rights) is necessarily underpinned by a robust, well understood and enforced contract law framework.

Sufficiently widespread counter party trust eventually flows from that, not vice versa.


We're getting into an unproductive "chicken or egg" argument, since I think that the exploitation and corruption of America's system by low-trust peoples has sufficiently demonstrated that Man's law is a product of Man, and will share our character.

Blogger Dirk Manly November 15, 2018 10:38 PM  

The definition of "capitalist" literally comes from Marx.

Using that particular word will ALWAYS lead to losing your argument with any half-aware apponent, because Capitalist was specifically DESIGNED to lose to any socialist argumentation.

It's a Marxist word. Don't use it.

Blogger InformationMerchant November 16, 2018 12:34 AM  

@93 "hard to start more pozzed than that."

One of the original arguments for BTC being freedom from banks telling you what you can and can't do with your money disappeared before BTC had even become mainstream.

So they claim, by using JavaScript as its basis.
Yes, as you and @50 said. Javascript itself is easy to learn and people already know it. Even if people don't know it, they probably know something similar to it. It's all over the internet, I can see why they'd want to use it for ETH.

Ease of use is never my #1 priority, they wanted something everyone could use. Not only do I not know how to make it as bulletproof as you want, I've never had anything be anywhere near as popular as ETH is.

I can't even remember the alternative to ETH that had a way harder language to learn. I don't remember if it was more stable or anything else. I spent a few hours messing with it one day and never went back because it didn't ever become popular at all.

Like whether it or the VM is runs on is fit for purpose? The founders didn't make the slightest attempt to create a system that could be easily verified, I'm not sure they were even aware of the concept, which should have been the foundational basis for it in the first place. This stuff matters.

I know it matters, I'm in no position to analyze the VM, I didn't offer a defence of it. The full quote of what I said is fine: "Without wanting to get into semantics, I can see why ETH could be considered superior to BTC. Obviously ETH has problems, but BTC wasn't even functioning as a currency for about a year."

You're arguing about "superior" and "technically superior". I said it's understandable to claim ETH is superior because it's a smart phone with a questionable OS vs a dumb phone. In order for the dumb phone to be better, you'd have to be fine with replacing all the features of the smart phone with nothing. You can complain about buggy features but BTC doesn't have those features at all. Furthermore, as I mentioned, BTC was unusable when it hit its all time high unless you were buying a car or something else of that value and even then, almost every other method was far cheaper.

BTC fees have gone down this year, but people were using ETH as a currency purely because BTC wasn't able to fulfill its one role.

You later made the argument that mailing paper is better than both of them. I didn't want to get into semantics because if you're right about BTC being technically superior to ETH, you're arguing paper is technically superior to both. It's not about advanced technology. It can be about the least buggy code, but original BTC is not the mess that BTC became.

See the DAO hard fork, as Wikipedia puts it, "In June 2016, users exploited a vulnerability in the DAO code to enable them to siphon off one-third of The DAO's funds to a subsidiary account. On 20 July 2016 01:20:40 PM +UTC at Block 1920000, the Ethereum community decided to hard-fork the Ethereum blockchain to restore virtually all funds to the original contract." Then back to the Ethereum page: "Ethereum subsequently forked twice in the fourth quarter of 2016 to deal with other attacks." There is so much bad this reveals that words fail, there's a reason a I've adopted the general term of Dunning-Krugerrands for cryptocurrencies.

1st point, the DAO wasn't ETH's fault. ETH was the internet, the DAO was www.bank.com - not only did www.bank.com get told their code was buggy but stupid people gave them money despite it being public knowledge that the code could be exploited. ETH cannot be blamed any more than the internet can be blamed when a website gets hacked.

2nd point: The rest of that understates how bad that was. Immutable ledgers cannot be "mutable just this one time."

Blogger Dirk Manly November 16, 2018 7:26 AM  

But Javascript is a mess.

A = "4";
B = "3";

sum=A+B;
dif=A-B;

When displayed
sum = "7"
dif = "4-3"

It can't get much more stupid than that.

Blogger Random #57 November 16, 2018 7:46 AM  

@103 InformationMerchant:

Like whether [the JavaScript based language] or the VM is runs on is fit for purpose? [And it's not practical to verify the current state of the art.]

I know [verification] matters, I'm in no position to analyze the VM, I didn't offer a defence of it.


I am in a position to analyze the VM, and it's sufficiently awful you shouldn't be trusting ETH for very much at all.

The full quote of what I said is fine: "Without wanting to get into semantics, I can see why ETH could be considered superior to BTC. Obviously ETH has problems, but BTC wasn't even functioning as a currency for about a year."

You're arguing about "superior" and "technically superior".


I'm arguing that ETH is sufficiently bad in ways that can't get fixed without a hard fork replacing most of its technology stack. I'm saying very specifically that makes it "not fix for purpose", in a way that's not true for BTC, which is suffering from different sorts of problems, although I'm not sure BTC's transaction rate problem can be solved for it to become a major medium of transfer. For the moment, that doesn't matter, because the governance of BTC has abandoned that goal, it's only for being a store of wealth. My comments on ETH's hard forks were intended to show its governance is a colossal mess in its own ways, which you in part acknowledge, and I'll repeat a comment I made elsewhere, after Charlottesville that governance revealed it would shut out the Right if they could figure out a way.

You later made the argument that mailing paper is better than both of them. I didn't want to get into semantics because if you're right about BTC being technically superior to ETH, you're arguing paper is technically superior to both. It's not about advanced technology. It can be about the least buggy code, but original BTC is not the mess that BTC became.

When you say "I didn't want to get into semantics" you're saying "meaning", reality, doesn't matter. But it very much does. In this case, "technically superior" is not the issue, the way I'm trying to organize this is binary, can or can't you depend on any of these methods to fund your right of Mao Alt-Tech project? I say BTC under its current governance, and ETH in its technology foundation, are not fit for this purpose, which extends to the problems we're both noting about converting them to real currencies that can be used to pay for the systems running your project. And thus I dismiss them as Dunning-Krugerrands.

I claim "paper", mailing small packets of cash or maybe checks, if both parties have postal systems reliable enough for that, is superior because it works, and for normies is much better than trying to use Dunning-Krugerrands. They won't have to master complicated technology including backups to operate their own local wallets, they won't have to depend on "exchanges", the best of which is run by people who hate us that would shut down the project they're trying to fund, and all of them seem to be crooks to a greater or lessor extent, and all seem to be run by incompetents to a greater or lessor extent. And "paper" avoids tax issues for the normies, like the Bitcoin Cash debacle.

Blogger Random #57 November 16, 2018 7:53 AM  

@104 Dirk Manly: They adopted more of JavaScript's syntax than semantics, I don't know if the awful semantics you illustrate for JavaScript were also used.

But that points out another reason this was a terribly bad idea, the superficial similarities will have programmers expecting it to have JavaScript semantics. And that will make them much less likely to be able to write correct smart contracts until they get burned a few times. Where burned means losing money.

And going back to and expanding on one of my original points, "easy to learn" is a dangerous concept in general, and as long as what you deliver is not "(too) hard to learn" it's not important for "power users", and writing contracts that manipulate money is a "power use".

Blogger Random #57 November 16, 2018 8:42 AM  

InformationMerchant: Sorry to criticize you so harshly, but you provide an excellent example of why so many cryptocurrencies are called Dunning-Krugerrands:

You are not enough of a programmer to immediately recognize why basing your main smart contract programming language on JavaScript is Not Even Wrong. By your own admission you are not capable of analyzing the ETH VM it runs on, which I'll admit is a much more specialized domain. Yet you advocate using ETH for serious transfers of value, serious for the people who need "substantial" amounts of money to run their right of Mao Alt-Tech projects, who have to pull out "real money" into a real currency they can use to pay for their systems.

The Dunning–Kruger effect rules the cryptocurrency domain, because there are so few people smart enough to be able to develop a cryptocurrency that works and will scale ("Satoshi" made at least one big failure there, the amount of energy consumed to continue mining today is ruinous; there are also related, I think, issues with doing transactions; not something I've really gotten into because I know I'm not smart enough to design one).

A similar problem exists with almost all of the people who believe they have what it takes to run a cryptocurrency exchange. The supreme example of this is the first very big one, Mt. Gox. A clue for pretty much anyone is that that stands for Magic The Gathering eXchange, it was originally intended to be an exchange for trading MtG cards.

Simplifying a great deal, the guy running it was so arrogant he believed he could write adequate ssh and DNS servers. In a few days. In PHP. Any of those facts should have made people run screaming from his venture.

Blogger Dirk Manly November 16, 2018 10:35 AM  

Wow. Even at my peak, when I could write 10 FEET of assembler code in a few hours, and have only 5 bugs in the entire thing, I couldn't write a decent SSH or DNS server in that short of time.

Blogger InformationMerchant November 16, 2018 3:18 PM  

BTC has abandoned that goal, it's only for being a store of wealth. My comments on ETH's hard forks were intended to show its governance is a colossal mess in its own ways, which you in part acknowledge, and I'll repeat a comment I made elsewhere, after Charlottesville that governance revealed it would shut out the Right if they could figure out a way.

The governance of both are awful. BTC going "store of value" route is terrible, especially when they decided the original use case could be thrown out.

ETH is a progressive endeavor rather than Libertarian one. There are a higher concentration of SJWs involved with ETH. The cryptocurrency guys overall have been hostile to the right plenty of times, thankfully they're not in a position where they can do that much about it.

And "paper" avoids tax issues for the normies, like the Bitcoin Cash debacle.

I understand why you're suggesting using paper, I wouldn't abandon crypto for paper in all situations, but I didn't take up your challenge to make the case that its inferior either.

I've said that relying on cryptocurrency to as the sole means of funding things hasn't worked in the past. I think including it as an option for payment is fine if you deal with small amounts of cash. I accept a dozen or so cryptocurrencies if someone doesn't want to use PayPal or a credit card. I'm not an obvious target, I'd rather pay crypto people the fee than PayPal. Out of the two groups, one of the groups actually is doing stuff to hurt the right.

Likewise, I'll donate to Youtubers and so on in crypto rather than use PayPal, Patreon, etc. I'm not mailing paper from Europe to the USA, that's not an option most give anyway.

One last thing with this quote, the Bitcoin Cash tax thing was one of many examples of the American tax system being draconian. Taxing people outside the US is another example of that. I don't have any issues with tax on cryptocurrencies where I am. I doubt I would ever have to pay tax on them here, I'd need to own a lot more than I do and pull out too much money too quickly.

I understand that a lot of people do live in the US and get hit by that kind of thing, but people can pick whether they have to be careful of tax laws, hate speech laws, etc.

"easy to learn" is a dangerous concept in general, and as long as what you deliver is not "(too) hard to learn" it's not important for "power users", and writing contracts that manipulate money is a "power use".

For this reason I've only ever messed around on the test network. I know how buggy anything I make elsewhere is, I wouldn't trust myself to write anything complex on the main network.

Sorry to criticize you so harshly,

This wasn't advertised as a safe space, no worries. On the other hand, it's hard to get an opinion that isn't tainted by being from a Bitcoin maximalist, ETH maximalist, etc.

write adequate ssh and DNS servers. In a few days. In PHP. Any of those facts should have made people run screaming from his venture.

The guy that made it, sold it really really quickly. The guy that bought it didn't understand it. People were running from it. By the time that thing came crashing down, people had long been able to flee from it. Now, there was a time before they were fleeing that they were using it and didn't immediately see the things you mention, point taken.

Again, this is an external site. There was an interesting combination of theft and incompetence going on there. I think the claim that coins would be in cold storage is probably my favourite needless lie of that dumpster fire.

Exchanges now are far better than then, although Poloniex 2 years ago was the most active exchange and would have massive problems that should've made customers flee that site. That one didn't even deal in fiat currency.

Blogger Tanjil Bren November 17, 2018 2:54 PM  

@101 "We're getting into an unproductive "chicken or egg" argument..."

I disagree (though think we may be talking to different topics). When exploring and attempting to understand any mechanism one must necessarily come to grips with its initiator.
In this case, which came first: the industrial revolution or the Magna Carta? Because one (as historically misunderstood as it might have been) set a society's feet on the path to the other and that one did not originate from a high trust society (again, quite the opposite).
In terms of Vox's proposition, I should have summed it up far more succinctly: consistency of outcomes (with all that implies).
When this is undermined, so is a (the) critical economic engine.

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