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Wednesday, November 14, 2018

Why would you do that?

The question really answers itself. From the comments on the recent Voxiversity video on the Socio-Sexual hierarchy:
Captain Memo: Why reverse gamma and delta though? gamma comes before delta in the alphabet.

Scott Birch: Delta signifies change. Deltas are mostly like to shift socio-sexual profiles in their journey through life. This is mentioned in the video.

Captain Memo: Still why not describe gammas first since that makes alphabetical sense? And how does Delta signify change? It's a letter.

Scott Birch: Google is your friend, "Captain".

Captain Memo: I did that. It signifies difference between quantities in a mathematical sense. I guess you could steelman voxday and say that it's about change. But why reverse the two letters in the presentation? It seems to me that he doesn't know the correct order. Or maybe he did this because he wanted to shit on Peterson last for more effect.

VD: Because a) the labels are irrelevant and b) it serves as useful Gamma bait. You can always count on the Gammas to sperg out on the irrelevant details just to show what Smart Boys they are. The hierarchy is what it is. The behaviors exist. It's not a freaking test of your knowledge of the alphabet, FFS.
You can always, Always, ALWAYS count on a Gamma to completely miss the point in search of a way to publicly demonstrate that he is a Smart Boy. If the Gamma is not arguing that the Alpha-Beta hierarchy has been disproven due to new research on wolf packs, he is obsessing over whether an alphabet that not one percent of the English-speaking population knows is being correctly cited in order.

I couldn't help but laugh at the additional Gamma tell, as if it was needed. "It seems...."

Every single time.

Labels: ,

130 Comments:

Blogger Rigel Kent November 14, 2018 8:22 AM  

Captain Memo didn't get it.

Blogger Resident Moron™ November 14, 2018 8:28 AM  

Q. E. D.

Nice demonstration

Blogger Nate November 14, 2018 8:30 AM  

well... he could also be an idiot aspie. focusing on such a stupid point sure looks like autism. BUT ITS NOT IN ORDER.

Blogger Silly but True November 14, 2018 8:33 AM  

Memo went home and taught his wife’s kids the alphabet some more.

Blogger Paul R November 14, 2018 8:33 AM  

Why is "it seems ..." a gamma indicator?

Blogger Ominous Cowherd November 14, 2018 8:37 AM  

`` It signifies difference between quantities in a mathematical sense.''

Turn it upside down and you get the del operator.

I've noticed that you don't present them in alphabetical order. Somehow, I never felt the need to fuss about it.

I've also noticed that the names of the classifications are English words rather than Greek letters. I also noticed that order didn't really signify much, except alpha, beta, delta signify decreasing desire to lead. The other classifications are pathologies.

Blogger CYGNUS FACETIOUS November 14, 2018 8:39 AM  

Capt. Memo didn't get the memo--

Blogger Blaidd November 14, 2018 8:39 AM  

@Paul R

It's a combination of making assumptions about someone you don't know anything about and trying to cover your ass if they prove your assumption wrong. When the gamma gets called out for being wrong, they can fall back on "well, I didn't say you WERE that way, just that it SEEMED that way, so I wasn't really wrong."

Blogger ZhukovG November 14, 2018 8:39 AM  

Wow.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd November 14, 2018 8:39 AM  

Paul R wrote:Why is "it seems ..." a gamma indicator?

Pay attention a while, and patterns become apparent. Search for reasons later, after you see the pattern

Blogger SemiSpook37 November 14, 2018 8:46 AM  

There's a time to focus on the subject matter, and a time to focus on the details.

Clearly, this guy cannot distinguish between the two.

Blogger Joeplanet November 14, 2018 8:48 AM  

“It seems” is a hedge so they can back pedal if they are proven wrong. Secret King Gamma is never wrong

Blogger Ominous Cowherd November 14, 2018 8:50 AM  

@6; I meant to say, not presented in Greek alphabetic order.

Blogger RusticFederalist November 14, 2018 8:52 AM  

It seems like there is a trend
http://voxday.blogspot.com/2018/10/over-target-it-seems.html

Blogger Gregory the Great November 14, 2018 8:53 AM  

Jordan Peterson is clearer about "it seems". When he uses "it seems" he adds the qualifier "Although that does not necessarily mean it's true"...

Blogger ZhukovG November 14, 2018 8:54 AM  

I suspect you can tell a lot about a person's position in the hierarchy by how they handle correction.

Blogger dtungsten November 14, 2018 8:57 AM  

I thought it obvious you meant Greek alphabetical order.

Blogger John rockwell November 14, 2018 9:00 AM  

Exiling gammas would probably be a good idea as I proposed with monasteries or anchorites.

But given the danger of them tearing down organizations and their dysfunction in social groups. I am not sure about the monastery option unless perhaps the monastic rules and regulations prevent that.

Can a monastery composed entirely of gammas work?

Blogger RusticFederalist November 14, 2018 9:00 AM  

Gregory the Great wrote:Jordan Peterson is clearer about "it seems". When he uses "it seems" he adds the qualifier "Although that does not necessarily mean it's true"...
Could you throw in a parenthetical comment to clarify that? Squeezing in the word "just" would be 10/10.

Blogger James Dixon November 14, 2018 9:04 AM  

> well... he could also be an idiot aspie.

While probably true, that's an insufficient explanation.

> I've noticed that you don't present them in alphabetical order. Somehow, I never felt the need to fuss about it.

Yep. It's not like alphabetical order is the point of the labels.

Blogger sysadmn November 14, 2018 9:09 AM  

Captain Memo: I did that. It signifies difference between quantities in a mathematical sense. I guess you could steelman voxday and say that it's about change. But why reverse the two letters in the presentation? It seems to me that he doesn't know the correct order. Or maybe he did this because he wanted to shit on Peterson last for more effect.

Six sentences, half contain tells. The redundant to me reminds us it's his special insight.

Blogger John rockwell November 14, 2018 9:13 AM  

''Can a monastery composed entirely of gammas work?''

Don't mind this statement. I found my answer in the vox archives.

Blogger Timmy3 November 14, 2018 9:15 AM  

It’s all Greek to me.

Who said there’s math involved.

Blogger Nate November 14, 2018 9:20 AM  

'Yep. It's not like alphabetical order is the point of the labels.'

my wife puts the letters F A L L on our stairwell in the foyer. because of the stair orientation... the word "fall" is read going up the stairs. We've had aspie types come to our house and complain about it.

Aspie: Thats wrong. You don't fall up.

Nate: its Fall. The season. Look at the colors and the leaves on the letters.

Aspie: I see. But you fall down. Not up.

Nate: … No. Its the season.

Aspie: You fall down. it should go down.


This really happened. Ask me why I drink.

Blogger James Chinery November 14, 2018 9:21 AM  

Pay attention a while, and patterns become apparent. Search for reasons later, after you see the pattern

Yes. When you make it a point to listen for people who begin a sentence with "so..." or default to "it seems" it becomes annoyingly common.

Blogger seeingsights November 14, 2018 9:28 AM  

Captain Memo also shows that discussing the use of words as if it's a way to increase knowledge is barking up the wrong tree.
There was an influential school of philosophy--called ordinary language philosophy--that did just that. A prominent philosopher in this school, for example, analyzed the use of the word ''feelings".

https://academic.oup.com/pq/article-abstract/1/3/193/1479718?redirectedFrom=fulltext


On the other hand, the great philosopher Popper made the point that it's 100 times better discussing solutions to problems that discussing the use of words.

Blogger R Webfoot November 14, 2018 9:30 AM  

"This really happened. Ask me why I drink."

Why drink when you can LLAF?

Blogger wreckage November 14, 2018 9:33 AM  

I hate people who abuse language. "It seems" should mean exactly that. Too often it's just passive-aggressive and snide.

Blogger JAG November 14, 2018 9:38 AM  

Paul R wrote:Why is "it seems ..." a gamma indicator?

It lets you know that a Straw Man is about to get its ass kicked.

Blogger dienw November 14, 2018 9:41 AM  

Two deer hunters:
Hunter #1: "I see a deer!"
Hunter #2: "It seems to be a deer; you should use your binoculars."
H1: "GAMMA!" [he shoots]

H2: "FFS, you idiot! You shot a cow! Here comes the farmer and he has a gun; he seems pissed. Run, he might be a good shot at that distance."
H1: GAMMA!

H2: [To H1's widow] "He died maintaining his alphaness to the bitter end."

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother November 14, 2018 9:42 AM  

Nate, I would have that conversation with you just to get you drinking, and then I would start drinking with you.

But I agree with that guy, I'd put F A L L down too, not up.

Blogger Alex November 14, 2018 9:44 AM  

Too funny. As someone who actually speaks Greek, the reversal of gamma and delta did not strike me as odd at all because it's utterly irrelevant to the points you've been making for years.

Gammas gonna gamma.

Blogger VFM #4388 November 14, 2018 9:46 AM  

If the Gamma is not arguing that the Alpha-Beta hierarchy has been disproven due to new research on wolf packs

Had a friend show me the "Adam Ruins Everything" episode on dating and he brought up the wolf-pack thing. And I was like, "So what? The question is 'is this a human behavior,' not, 'is this a wolf behavior.'"

Then Adam's victim was all like, "but chimps exhibit alpha behavior". And Adam was all like, "but our nearer relative, bonobos, are matriarchal."

And that was doubly infuriating. Because according to the darwinist dogma, chimps and bonobos diverged after their common ancestor diverged from humans. Which Adam had to have known if he did any research to make that statement.

The wolf pack thing could just be "he's bad at logic". But the bonobo thing was a willful, knowing lie.

As I hear SJWs are wont to do.

Blogger The Deplorable Podunk Ken Ramsey November 14, 2018 9:47 AM  

I laughed out loud. Too funny. The greatest SWOOSH since Nike.

Blogger MJ Meyers November 14, 2018 9:48 AM  

The most hilarious example of Gamma rage I read was a Twitter thread where POTUS said he "will" capitalize the C in country. Some gamma kept posting screen shots of old Trump tweets using the word country in lower-case. I replied to him with a screen shot of the definition of "will" lol. A Gamma need not be smart to gamma.

For intense field studies in the Gamma, one can find numerous examples in the comment section of a Trump tweet. This is their natural habitat. Like a prairie dog in the grass!

Blogger Korppi on oikeus November 14, 2018 9:49 AM  

So you are saying that facts don't matter Vox? Now, I am GENUINELY curious, how does this go along with your supposedly superior (seriously, superior?) intelligence Vox? Vox? it seems you are insecure because there are men like me who are confident enough to support feminism and be bested by women in physical strength.

An honest question: have you ever seen a woman Vox? I have {now, my girlfriend [don't know if it's appropriate to really refer to her as being "mine"(sexist dipshits can pretend to do so)] just left me but that's fine since she is a strong and independent woman) and will be seeing them. That's because I am not a jerk but a really nice guy whom the girls really like.

If the Gamma is not arguing that the Alpha-Beta hierarchy has been disproven due to new research on wolf packs

LOL, you are seriously talking about "alphas" and "betas" and whatnot "gammas"? I'm quite literally laughing right now Vox.

{And by the way, I do know my science and it doesn't support any notions of male or female hierarchies of any sort. I read some antrophological studies in my college sophomore year and got myself educated. I usually prefer to study things myself though. Autodidact: check. But it doesn't hurt to take a class or two and I really wanted to get proper knowledge to sort out my mixed feelings imposed by patriarchy. My racio-sexist gaze made me put people into categories which - of course - don't exist. We are all unique, even though I used to take and still take pride for the fact that I never place myself or my preferences above anyone else [even though I happen to have ROYAL BLOOD in my veins (which unfortunayely no-one recognised or respected in high school - not an easy task to be a SECRET KING)] since I was schooled by my strong and independent single-mom. I am not sure if I should continue in my studies [I'm currently in the fourth year of my humanist studies] since I feel I could take some time for myself and go to India and refresh my understanding of multicurtural harmony in the heart of that beautiful melting pot and nation [or should I say "nation"] of immigrants.}

Do you think you have any credibility anymore?

Like wow. Just wow.

Blogger RusticFederalist November 14, 2018 9:50 AM  

James Chinery wrote: Pay attention a while, and patterns become apparent. Search for reasons later, after you see the pattern

Yes. When you make it a point to listen for people who begin a sentence with "so..." or default to "it seems" it becomes annoyingly common.

I read that reddit comments starting with "So" received more upvtoes than other comments. Any idea why?

Blogger maniacprovost November 14, 2018 9:52 AM  

Mildly disagree. Maybe that means I'm a gamma.

Blogger John November 14, 2018 9:54 AM  

The choice of labels seemed so intuitive that it never occurred to me to check the order. Gamma sounds gay, and the symbol we used in math looks feminine and whimsical. Delta sounds reliable. The symbol looks like something you would build on.

Blogger Johnny November 14, 2018 9:55 AM  


I found the music slightly irritating, but otherwise the video is excellent.

Now my take on it. It complicates things, but my preference is to separate personality from ability.

Some people with Alpha ability are natural born Betas by personality. They simply don't feel comfortable with being assertive, and to use military lingo, they fail to assume command even when they get it. Thus weak leadership when promoted to too high a position. They are go along get along guys on a personal level.

The world is full of aspiring Alphas who lack the ability to deserve the top slot. When not overly power hungry they can be good lower ranking leaders, Betas. And they can function as Deltas, but will never be as good at a lower level as true Deltas.

The Gamma is somebody who regards leadership as something that is stolen. When ambitious they desire to steal some for themselves, and on a lower level of ambition, they are the guy who will stab you in the back.

In the current Thor movies, Loci is the obvious and pure Gamma type, Thor the pure Alpha. And just as an aside, I think Marvel misses a bet in how they play out Loci. It would not be true to type but would play out will with the audience to have him repent when caught in his misdeeds. Or repent more than is portrayed. The Gamma is the guy who when discovered gets exiled for disloyalty. Repenting or groveling would be Loci's way of staying with the group. If fake it would play out well with all the secret Gamma's out there, the folk who want to steal success. You know, another trick. And if real it would play out well with most everybody else.

I have a thing for the old Honeymooners TV series because as a kid I enjoyed it a lot. Ralph was a Delta by ability who in a fit of vanity aspired to being an Alpha. Eventually he was made the fool, and in the third act would reacquire his Delta status with a display of humility.

And it occurs to me that Stalin was what you get when a Gamma rises to power and pretends to be an Alpha. That is why he could never rise above ruling through fear, even when the circumstance supported him being a true Alpha. Thus his endless murderous behavior.

Blogger Korppi on oikeus November 14, 2018 9:59 AM  

@33: Then Adam's victim was all like, "but chimps exhibit alpha behavior". And Adam was all like, "but our nearer relative, bonobos, are matriarchal."

Bonopo-pack is a SJW fantasy: a society ruled by women and pacified by sex. Even if matriarchy is the rarest of all types of tribal order, they cling to it as a salvific model. We could pretend it to be possible but even in that case it would collapse due to the fact that no man will be pacified by having sex with an ugly, fat feminist

Blogger LES November 14, 2018 10:05 AM  

Does the Socio-Sexual hierarchy apply to Christian men? If so, what are the attributes of each category?

Blogger Paul R November 14, 2018 10:11 AM  

Thank you. One follow-on question (or two): In order to contrast with a the gamma's "it seems", how would a non-gamma present a theory that he's not real confident with? Or is it more that what comes after the "it seems" is usually some sort of attack that the gamma wants to throw out there without really owning?

Blogger VD November 14, 2018 10:11 AM  

I read that reddit comments starting with "So" received more upvtoes than other comments. Any idea why?

Reddit is full of Gammas.

Blogger James Dixon November 14, 2018 10:13 AM  

> how would a non-gamma present a theory that he's not real confident with?

I have a theory, but I'm not sure if it's valid. It's ....
Anyone want to try either confirming it or tearing it apart?

Blogger Azure Amaranthine November 14, 2018 10:14 AM  

@Korppi 9/10 you failed too many braces that a real gamma would have got right. Still, well played.

Blogger Tim Bushong November 14, 2018 10:15 AM  

Really, really enjoyed your Socio-Sexual hierarchy talk, Vox. I'm a pastor, and recently called an older man out on his gossip and slander. He responded in ways I expected (hissy, refusal to take responsibility, 'everyone does it,' etc...), but I believe that had I been more familiar with the hierarchy structure I may have approached him slightly differently. Maybe...

This will be helpful stuff, especially in pastoral ministry. Thnx

Blogger Dirk Manly November 14, 2018 10:21 AM  

@5

"Why is "it seems ..." a gamma indicator? "


Because a gamma is so unsure of himself, that he's constantly on the lookout for any way of walking into a trap by being disproven after making an unsupported assertion.

By couching his assertion in "it seems" then he can ALWAYS back out of it, and claim to have never been wrong.

Compare that to this -- back in high school, maybe even earlier, I developed a habit which I have to this day. To check to see if I am correctly understanding a teacher's or prof's lecture, I will ocassionally raise my hand, and summarize what had been said so far, as I understand it. Unlike the Gamma, I am specifically looking FOR the instructor to tell me that my summary is screwed up someplace -- so that I correct my mental model of the material as quickly as possible.

I get accused of trying to "look smart" or be a "know it all" but I'm actually just trying to avoid having mistaken impressions for a test on the material, or before doing homework problems -- and I'm willing to look like an idiot to get that mistake in my understanding corrected even before the lecture is done.

Blogger Dirk Manly November 14, 2018 10:32 AM  

@18

"But given the danger of them tearing down organizations and their dysfunction in social groups. I am not sure about the monastery option unless perhaps the monastic rules and regulations prevent that.

Can a monastery composed entirely of gammas work?"

Perhaps you now know why most monasteries require the monks to take a vow of silence.

Blogger Damelon Brinn November 14, 2018 10:40 AM  

I read that reddit comments starting with "So" received more upvtoes than other comments. Any idea why?

I'd guess it's because upvoting/liking appeals to the same passive-aggressive nature. Especially on reddit, where strong opinions without disclaimers and apologies are frowned upon.

Blogger maniacprovost November 14, 2018 10:41 AM  

> how would a non-gamma present a theory that he's not real confident with?

I have a theory, but I'm not sure if it's valid. It's ....
Anyone want to try either confirming it or tearing it apart?


AHhhh so many words

A real Chad Alpha prefaces concise phrases with verbal tags. Here are some examples for your reference.


"Question: Is this proposal aligned with the global roofline synergy policy in H2?"

"Theory: The divisional Lean integration effort needs more manpower and additional checkpoint meetings to fully micromanage the budgetary outcome."

Blogger widlast washere November 14, 2018 10:43 AM  

"Can a monastery composed entirely of gammas work?"

No. I'm well acquainted with several monasteries, Benedictine, Augustinian, and Eastern Orthodox.
Monastery life requires a very stable mind set, they must be serious, calm, and collected.
A gamma would not last long.

Blogger Paul R November 14, 2018 10:43 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger lowercaseb November 14, 2018 10:50 AM  

Azure Amaranthine wrote:@Korppi 9/10 you failed too many braces that a real gamma would have got right. Still, well played.

Seriously...so many points for the "Like wow. Just wow." at the end.

Blogger KPKinSunnyPhiladelpia November 14, 2018 10:50 AM  

Some differences between Aspie's and Gammas.

Gamma's sweat the small shit because it's the easiet thing to get "right" and feel "right" about; Aspies are obsesssed with order and ever the smallest details need to be ordered.

Gamma's can start out as reasonably talented and accomplished, but can spiral into catastrophic failure; aspies can start out as complete failures but some can take their obsessions to high levels of accomplishment.

And above all, gammas care what you think; aspies generally don't, or can't.

Blogger Paul R November 14, 2018 10:53 AM  

Interesting. See it this fits: I've always hated it when you're in some sort of athletic competition and you're getting ready to win and the other guy sort of throws the game because they know they're getting ready to lose. I'm certain they do this in order to avoid the pain of real true defeat. Whenever I'm in some sort of race or anything I always give it my utmost because 1. I want to win. and 2. The winner of any competition deserves to know they are truly the best. Throwing the game diminishes that. Would people that throw games/races like that be gammas?

Blogger Dirk Manly November 14, 2018 10:56 AM  

@57

Autistic, NOT Gamma:
Here is the Onion's Autistic Reporter, Micheal Falk, interviewing a Prisoner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D04wb7P_v-4

Stereotypical Autist, no gamma traits.

Blogger C.B. Robertson November 14, 2018 10:57 AM  

Maybe I went to a different elementary school than everyone else, but since we're not speaking Greek, "d" comes before "g"...

Alpha is not just a Greek letter. It's also a verbal alternative for the letter "a." Although math-inclined sorts are more likely to choose "beta/chai/delta" over "bravo/charlie/delta," the function is the same in a list: they're English alphabet monickers.

...which means "D" comes before "G"...

Blogger Amy November 14, 2018 10:57 AM  

“It seems” is just like “I feel.”

Don’t tell me what it “seems” to be, tell me what it IS.

Don’t tell me what you “feel,” tell me what you THINK.

It’s an unfortunate consequence of our modern educational system. Untrained minds, emoting endlessly, thinking that rebellion against norms always = critical thinking.

Blogger LES November 14, 2018 10:58 AM  

Not to be too Gamma-ish, I'll explain my previous question. I discovered long ago that even when only 2 men are together a subtle unspoken hierarchy is established. Vox explained this as the big fish in a little pond.

Since I recognized this as a Christian I chose to avoid the conflict in order to achieve the goal. I once worked with an Alpha who would go in to meetings only half-prepared. He dominated the meeting while I followed up with the details. I knew my role so I did not undermine him but did my my part for the project. I did not envy his innate ability and he respected my knowledge.

The leadership of the church I attend has no Alphas, only Gammas who don't know they are Gammas, trying to be Alphas.

As a Christian I do not feel inferior as a Delta-Gamma but accept my position in the Body of Christ.

Blogger Dirk Manly November 14, 2018 11:04 AM  

A lot of losers and self-sabotagers tend to be omegas and BPD's.

Blogger R Webfoot November 14, 2018 11:06 AM  

"Gamma sounds gay, and the symbol we used in math looks feminine and whimsical."

That got me thinking about the symbol. Then it clicked.

γ is for Vendetta.

Blogger KPKinSunnyPhiladelpia November 14, 2018 11:09 AM  

Joeplanet wrote:“It seems” is a hedge so they can back pedal if they are proven wrong. Secret King Gamma is never wrong

Dirk Manly wrote:@5

"Why is "it seems ..." a gamma indicator? "

Because a gamma is so unsure of himself, that he's constantly on the lookout for any way of walking into a trap by being disproven after making an unsupported assertion.

By couching his assertion in "it seems" then he can ALWAYS back out of it, and claim to have never been wrong.


Apropos of the "it seems" phraseology -- and the fact that a gamma's sensibility is feminine -- it's a good linguistic maneuver when discussing issues of substance and logic with a woman.

If you say to a woman "X is true," even if you back up the claim with good reasons and evidence, the fact that you said it with certitude will generate irrational resistance in a woman's mind because being "decisive" about things she may disagree with makes her very uncomfortable.

Note--we're talking about conversations of substance here, not "leading," which is different. Leading is more fact based, such as "we'll leave at 6" or "Can't wait to make love to you tonight."

But if you say to her in the context of a discussion about issues "It seems to me that X is true," that's rhetorically softer, and more palatable. She sees that as an invitation to conversation, whereas the other direct statement in her mind is a pronouncement, which she hates (unless she is truly submissive).

Other prepartory phrases that work -- "In my view," "I am thinking this way about it. "I wonder if X is true, here's why it might be."

It's rhetorical preparation of the battlespace, especially about tough issues like money, childrearing and the like.

The technique works.

Blogger pdwalker November 14, 2018 11:18 AM  

VD, did you seriously and deliberately switch the order as a gamma trap? Because if so, bloody hell, I’m never going to play chess with you.

Blogger Matt Robison November 14, 2018 11:22 AM  

After reading a Washington biography, it is obvious that Benedict Arnold was a total, textbook Gamma.

Blogger Lance E November 14, 2018 11:30 AM  

James Dixon wrote:> how would a non-gamma present a theory that he's not real confident with?

I have a theory, but I'm not sure if it's valid. It's ....

Anyone want to try either confirming it or tearing it apart?


First: that's horribly wordy. Halfway through the first sentence, people will saying "spit it out already!"

And second: You're word-lawyering here. This version expresses exactly the same intent as "it seems" or "I feel". It's an attempt to soften the ego blow of being found wrong afterward. "Well, I said I wasn't totally sure!"

Non-gamma would be: either omit the qualifier, if you're confident in your statement, and be ready to say "sorry, I was wrong" later on; or, omit the statement entirely if not, because most of the time, nobody's interested in your opinion unless they specifically asked for it.

And like most things, it's an heuristic, not a binary. Same with parentheses - there are valid uses for them, but gammas use them all the time and usually inappropriately. Saying "seems like..." once in a while does not automatically make someone a gamma; saying it at the beginning of every other sentence probably does. It doesn't matter what phrase is used as the crutch; what matters is the crutch.

Blogger VD November 14, 2018 11:33 AM  

VD, did you seriously and deliberately switch the order as a gamma trap? Because if so, bloody hell, I’m never going to play chess with you.

Are you really just beginning to notice how I habitually operate? Honesty does not preclude a Machiavellian approach to strategy. I'm so accustomed to leaving traps for my critics that I do it as a matter of course now.

Blogger Korppi on oikeus November 14, 2018 11:35 AM  

@Azure: you failed too many braces that a real gamma would have got right. Still, well played.

Not possible, I was so creative with the TRIPLE parenthesis. That's the kind of a smart boy I am!

Blogger Lance E November 14, 2018 11:37 AM  

KPKinSunnyPhiladelpia wrote:Apropos of the "it seems" phraseology -- and the fact that a gamma's sensibility is feminine -- it's a good linguistic maneuver when discussing issues of substance and logic with a woman.

This aligns with my experience. I was once taught to use phrases like "I feel" as a way to reduce conflict. This was, unfortunately, presented as a general rule, and not a sex-specific strategy. Conflict-avoidance is a terrible trait in the world of men, but is essential in our nightmare dystopia of female-run education and highly feminized workplaces.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine November 14, 2018 11:38 AM  

"And second: You're word-lawyering here. This version expresses exactly the same intent as "it seems" or "I feel". It's an attempt to soften the ego blow of being found wrong afterward. "Well, I said I wasn't totally sure!""

"There's a theory that..."

"My hypothesis is..."

Blogger Azure Amaranthine November 14, 2018 11:40 AM  

Even those are frontloaded with deniability, but at least they don't reek of redundant weakness.

Blogger Avalanche November 14, 2018 11:42 AM  

@41 "Bonobo-pack is a SJW fantasy: a society ruled by women and pacified by sex. Even if matriarchy is the rarest of all types of tribal order, they cling to it as a salvific model. We could pretend it to be possible ..."

The main reason that 'we' have determined the bonobos mutated into be such a matriarchal and hyper-sexualized group was their isolation from 'normal' chimps on their island home. IF the river dries up, and the evil cis-masculine, hetero-patriarchal horrible evil (did I write that twice?) chimps who don't swim but now can swagger their evil violent masculinist way into bonobo-land, buh-bye bonobo!

And THAT is science for you!

Blogger Alex November 14, 2018 11:42 AM  

I hate to beat a dead horse like Jordan Peterson--

--okay, actually I don't--

--but he does this "It seems" and all of these other gamma tells all the time. It's hilarious to listen to the guy spout his gibberish once you're primed to notice these tells.

Blogger VFM #7634 November 14, 2018 11:43 AM  

Delta, Sigma, and Lambda aren't meant to be in order. Alpha, Beta, Gamma, and Omega are. Delta only looks out of order because it's right after Gamma.

Interestingly, over at the Chateau, Gamma and Sigma have become accepted addenda to the simple Alpha-Beta-Omega hierarchy, although VD Deltas remain CH Betas.

Blogger Nate73 November 14, 2018 11:47 AM  

If I hadn't met a person like that in real life then I wouldn't believe they existed. Could find something trivial to strawman or nitpick no matter what you said. Unbelievable.

Blogger VFM #7634 November 14, 2018 11:49 AM  

@pdwalker

In case you haven't noticed, Whac-a-Gamma is the national sport of Vox Populi.

Blogger Avalanche November 14, 2018 11:52 AM  

@53 "I have a theory, but I'm not sure if it's valid. It's .... Anyone want to try either confirming it or tearing it apart?"

"I have a theory: a., b., c., and d...."

Functionally: a theory IS possibly invalid. One hearing a theory may address its possible validity (or in-) merely because it is a theory; you needn't specifically invite them to critique unless critique IS your purpose.

I used to get sniped at for "giving orders"; usually in answer to someone's "what should I do?" My response was: "they're only orders if you follow them!" Prevarication, hedge words, tentativeness: not things an alpha needs. One might choose to use them, out of concern for the lesser's inability to 'take' direct speech, but that's a kindness toward the lesser, not a necessity for the alpha's communication.

Blogger Johnny Reb November 14, 2018 11:55 AM  

Oh hell no! It works on multiple levels, heh. I would have laughed my a$$ off. I love it, doc's got a sense of humor. Nate's a lucky man.

Blogger RusticFederalist November 14, 2018 11:56 AM  

Are there writing tells for Omegas?

Blogger Avalanche November 14, 2018 11:59 AM  

@62 " I once worked with an Alpha who would go in to meetings only half-prepared. He dominated the meeting while I followed up with the details. I knew my role so I did not undermine him but did my my part for the project."

Why, then, would you not be a beta? The sidekick or lieutenant to the alpha, the detail-man to the idea-man? The wingman?

Do you have OTHER gamma qualities, or do you misconceive that 'having details' always means gamma? Did your alpha find you annoying, or helpful? Did the alpha RELY on you to provide the details he couldn't be bothered with -- that is, HE recognized you as a necessary and valued part of his leadership?? (No Captain wants a ship without a First Officer!)

Blogger David The Good November 14, 2018 12:05 PM  

Stg58/Animal Mother wrote:Nate, I would have that conversation with you just to get you drinking, and then I would start drinking with you.

But I agree with that guy, I'd put F A L L down too, not up.


Yeah, it should be FALL going down and SPRING going up.

Blogger James Dixon November 14, 2018 12:07 PM  

> A real Chad Alpha prefaces concise phrases with verbal tags.

I'm not an Alpha, Chad or otherwise.

> First: that's horribly wordy. Halfway through the first sentence, people will saying "spit it out already!"

So do it better. He asked for a way to do it. I gave one. I don't pretend it's the only way or best way.

> This version expresses exactly the same intent as "it seems" or "I feel".

Erm, no it doesn't. It expresses "I could use some help with this, anyone want to pitch in?"

> ...but at least they don't reek of redundant weakness.

They sound weak because they are weak. Re-read the question. You're asking for feedback on something you're not sure of. by definition that's a weak position. My words were chosen to fit the situation described.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine November 14, 2018 12:08 PM  

What if I were to write FALL in descending order on the faces of the stairs, and SPRING in ascending order on the tops?

Blogger Azure Amaranthine November 14, 2018 12:13 PM  

"They sound weak because they are weak. Re-read the question."

A difference in goals between you and I. I read them correctly the first time. My mistake was assuming you would wish to project the same way I would.

Blogger Gregory the Great November 14, 2018 12:14 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger DonReynolds November 14, 2018 12:14 PM  

@62 LES
Aristotle taught that before a man can lead, he must first learn how to follow.

Use this time wisely to learn from leaders since you may later be one yourself, even if you do not seek it. Good men do not always claw their way into important positions or climb over the dead bodies. Some good men end up as leaders because they are the best choice at the time. It is often difficult for a responsible man to accept when his tenure is over, but it does happen. Just try to make the transition as painless as you can.

Blogger Gregory the Great November 14, 2018 12:14 PM  

It seems 2+2=4 is regarded as mathematically true, at least that's what a majority of scientists seem to agree on.

Blogger Gilbert Ratchet November 14, 2018 12:16 PM  

I happen to be familiar with Greek, and that delta comes before gamma in Vox's scheme I've always found slightly annoying, especially as these are not parallel categories (cf. Myers-Briggs or the enneagram) but a *hierarchy,* in which some people *outrank* others. Huxley got it right in Brave New World.

But... I got over it! It's convention, like a Roman's nomen coming between his praenomen and his cognomen, or the German habit of saying hundred-five-and-thirty, or the American custom of writing dates as, say, 11/28/18. All of these are out of order, and none of them really matters, once you know what's going on.

Besides, "gamma" just somehow works, rhetorically.

Blogger James Dixon November 14, 2018 12:17 PM  

> A difference in goals between you and I.

OK, that's reasonable. There's no reason we should react the same way to the question.

Blogger VFM #7634 November 14, 2018 12:19 PM  

"Are there writing tells for Omegas?"

They're pedantic and given to TMI like Gammas, and they have a similar sense of humor if they have one at all. They tend to be very immature, weird, and/or spergy. However, they lack the superiority and ambition -- the Secret King complex -- of Gammas.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother November 14, 2018 12:28 PM  

David The Good,

I'd switch them up randomly every time Nate came over, just to get the good times rolling.

Blogger Avalanche November 14, 2018 12:28 PM  

@65 "If you say to a woman "X is true," even if you back up the claim with good reasons and evidence, the fact that you said it with certitude will generate irrational resistance in a woman's mind because being "decisive" about things she may disagree with makes her very uncomfortable."

I don't remember which book it's from -- either Deborah Tannen's You Just Don't Understand! Men and Women in Conversation or just as likely, Suzette Haden Elgin's Genderspeak: Men, Women, and the Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense; (could've been both).

The vignette has a business woman discussing something with her boss, and asks "should we do this"? He says: "no." She gets frustrated/angry and leaves without answering; so HE thinks she's fine with it, and SHE thinks "he's a bossy b@stard who never listens to MY ideas!"

This is a typical common miscommunication: while the man's "no" is, FOR HIM, the beginning of a negotiation; SHE perceives it as his final answer/decision. So HE is baffled to find out later that she's angry, when 'if she disagreed, why didn't she just SAY so?! And SHE is furious because "he just slammed the door on me without even listening to MY idea!"

If you know this, all your negotiations will go much better.

Live example: my dear friends and I were in Costco. She wanted her husband to consider buying a battery-operated kitchen trashcan. She asked if they could get this. He said "no" and kept heading for the coldroom. She was spitting NAILS when she came to tell me how much she hated him and THIS was why she had given up hope for their marriage.

Me: "Wait, wait. Do you remember: a man's first response is the OPEN to the negotiation? Deep breath, go back to him, and say: 'I'd like to negotiate this and tell you WHY I want this trashcan.'"

So, she did (not spreading germs, on sale, etc. etc.). He listened, said yes, and SHE was 'sore amazed.'

HOW men and women (natively, naturally) communicate differs.

And, KPK inPhilly, your: "back up the claim with good reasons and evidence" is also like saying: "if you throw a lot of dialectic AT her." Women are mainly rhetoric; yah gotta remember that -- you may end up shutting her down, but you may not end up convincing her!

In addition to those painfully feminist books I recommended above -- and I do, the science is usually reasonably sound; I commend to all Peter Sandman's Risk Communication website: www.psandman.com. An edited bit to give a sense of why I find his site so helpful below. In the following, I've added ... translations ... in curly-braces.

"Risk communication differs from risk assessment in that risk assessment deals with the physics and chemistry and probability of something happening. Risk assessment defines risk as magnitude (how bad the problem could be) times the probability (how likely it is to happen). Experts tend to focus on this definition (let’s call it hazard), and so underestimate actual risk, because they ignore outrage. The public tends to focus instead on outrage and pay less attention to risk (hazard).
...
"When dealing with a situation, there comes a point where you must stop dealing with the hazard {dialectic/facts} and work with outrage {rhetoric/feelings}. There's a common misperception that engineers and scientists and technologists {men} can't do it -- they retreat further into the tech specs, rather than deal with the emotionalism. But if an engineer’s 18-yr-old daughter {yeah... woman} comes home in tears from college because she broke up with her boyfriend, the engineer doesn’t say "now, honey, you must realize that the median teenager has an average of 3.7 breakups over the 4 years of college attendance.

Teach your engineers when (and HOW) to address outrage, not just by throwing more technobabble at the outrage."

Blogger GAHCindy November 14, 2018 12:45 PM  

I'm sure you and your wife aren't as suggestible as I am. When I think of putting the word "fall" anywhere near my stairs, my first thought is that I'd definitely take that subliminal instruction and break my neck with it. Not risking it. I'll find something that says "autumn" instead.

Blogger Nate November 14, 2018 12:47 PM  

"Yeah, it should be FALL going down and SPRING going up."

Dammit people. the stairs don't work that way. if you put FALL going down.. you'd have to read it backwards... right to left... like a damn commie. that is NOT how this works.

Blogger Dirk Manly November 14, 2018 12:47 PM  

@67

"After reading a Washington biography, it is obvious that Benedict Arnold was a total, textbook Gamma."

Ya think?

Waaaaaaaaaaaa! George is getting more attention than me. Waaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Blogger Dirk Manly November 14, 2018 12:53 PM  

@81

"Are there writing tells for Omegas?"

Are you done yet? I want to get back to my videogame/hentai/vidya/porn.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine November 14, 2018 1:04 PM  

And here I was thinking you had some fancy inlaid stairs or something Nate. It's just written on the ends. Hurts the feewings of my imagination.

Blogger Wolfman at Large November 14, 2018 1:06 PM  

The SSH is also not purely linear as there appears to be a backdoor channel linking Low Beta and High Gamma without going through Delta.

Blogger Doktor Jeep November 14, 2018 1:12 PM  

And in the latest round of mindfulness on this topic, we could conclude that another gamma tell is when they claim they are really sigma.

Blogger James Pyrich November 14, 2018 1:18 PM  

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

Blogger Lance E November 14, 2018 1:19 PM  

James Dixon wrote:> This version expresses exactly the same intent as "it seems" or "I feel".

Erm, no it doesn't. It expresses "I could use some help with this, anyone want to pitch in?"


Now you're moving the goalposts. The question was "how does one present a theory one is not confident about without the gamma tell?" Not "how does one ask for help?".


Unrelated: do these YT commenters think that Vox just stormed onto the stage and came up with the theory yesterday? One says he mixed up Delta and Gamma because Peterson, the other said he hates women and hasn't read the books in his own library... the books that he's repeatedly posted about and quoted from.

There's nothing too unusual about being adamantly opposed to an unfamiliar theory, but it's very interesting how Vox's critics in particular have a tendency to make unwarranted and truly bizarre assumptions about the man himself.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine November 14, 2018 1:30 PM  

"do these YT commenters think that Vox just stormed onto the stage and came up with the theory yesterday?"

It stresses their pitiful amygdalae, so like the concept that maybe the Kulaks actually earned the food they're eating, clearly it can't be true. After all, only bad people make me feel bad.

Blogger Nate November 14, 2018 1:41 PM  

people… the primary evidence that this Captain Memo fellow is more aspie than gamma is that, unless there is more of the conversation we are not privy to, he was legitimately confused. He did not try to use attack Vox or embarrass Vox. There is no hissing from a distance here. Its just aspie do-not-grok.


Blogger Scott Birch November 14, 2018 1:59 PM  

I'm awful for typos. Corrected reads: "Captain Memo Delta signifies change. Of all the groupings, Deltas are most likely to shift socio-sexual profiles in their journey through life. This is mentioned in the video."

Blogger Scott Birch November 14, 2018 2:23 PM  

98. Wolfman at Large Would that be a _secret_ back channel?

Blogger Johnny November 14, 2018 2:34 PM  

Paul R wrote:I've always hated it when you're in some sort of athletic competition and you're getting ready to win and the other guy sort of throws the game because they know they're getting ready to lose.
One famous example of this that got televised was the Fischer Spassky chess match. Spassky was getting the better of it until Fischer beat him in a spectacular display of skill. Emotionally it broke Spassky. He couldn't handle losing when he played his best game, slacked off, and Fischer won the tournament.

My take is that the best competition is when skill counts but there is an element of chance as is common in team sports. The Japanese do this as a matter of course. The best player in some area is expected to lose now and then to avoid unduly humiliating the others.

Blogger Mister Excitement November 14, 2018 2:42 PM  

Anybody that has ever spent any time around military officers will see this exact behavior.

A few years ago, I was an instructor for combat advisers deploying to Iraq and Afghanistan. I was teaching a class with a Lieutenant Colonel that always had to inject himself into the instruction to show off his brilliance. Once he asked, "Who certified this training?" In the middle of the class he asked a bizarrely inappropriate question just to play "Stump the Chump." After a few unsuccessful attempts to explain to him that we had been training this material for years to thousands of students, I just referred him to the Brigade Commander.

Nothing against military officers, I used to be one, but the officer ranks are filled with guys like this. Being a military officer is an easy track to positions of authority, and these guys love love love to lord over their underlings.

That's just one example. There's always "That Guy" in every group that has to inject himself into the conversation to get attention.

They like to say, "Well, but actually....."

Blogger justaguy November 14, 2018 2:43 PM  

VD, in the past, didn't you have slightly different definitions and included a sigma?

Blogger Starboard November 14, 2018 3:18 PM  

"Yeah, it should be FALL going down and SPRING going up."

94. Nate, "Dammit people. the stairs don't work that way. if you put FALL going down.. you'd have to read it backwards... right to left... like a damn commie. that is NOT how this works."

Let's all calm down and put the letters on the mantle with all the pumpkins, leaves, and spiced apple candles. Now, what are we drinking?

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 14, 2018 3:21 PM  

What Avalanche said about women, we don't have a gender gap we have a political rhetoric effectiveness gap.

Blogger Bibliotheca Servare November 14, 2018 3:39 PM  

My OCD compels me to ask: are the letters on your left as you ascend, or on your right?

I can't really understand why "but you fall down..." would be a serious concern, in terms of letter orientation/order, but I *can* imagine mentally going "but English is read left to right, not right to left! Aaaah!" while keeping my damned mouth shut about it because it's a freaking *decoration* for the love of God...lol. And because my idiosyncratic neuroses aren't your problem, of course.

Blogger VFM #7634 November 14, 2018 3:56 PM  

@95 Dirk Manly

Actually, Benedict Arnold was an Alpha. He wouldn't have been able to get the wife he did if he was Gamma. That's the crucial tell.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine November 14, 2018 4:16 PM  

"are the letters on your left as you ascend, or on your right?"

On the right. You wouldn't be able to see them without leaning over the side of the staircase though. That's the only way it can be ascending from left to right.

"Actually, Benedict Arnold was an Alpha."

Apparently he scaled up... poorly, at some point.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine November 14, 2018 4:16 PM  

I would tend to agree though. Arnold didn't start out as a loser.

Blogger James Dixon November 14, 2018 4:38 PM  

> The question was "how does one present a theory one is not confident about without the gamma tell?" Not "how does one ask for help?".

Why would you be presenting a theory you're not sure of unless you were asking for help, or at least feedback?

Blogger maniacprovost November 14, 2018 4:45 PM  

How many people are falling down Nate's stairs???

I'm going to have to contemplate this idea that when men give you a stupid decision, they're actually "opening negotiation." Of course anything is negotiable, but I don't typically see "no, do it this way" as an offer to discuss how we should really do it the other way.

My recommendation, if you do this, and maybe you're right, it is good manly behavior: Instead of immediately replying to a suggestion with a decision, make a countersuggestion or ask why. Regardless of what a confident, enlightened person should do, it's highly likely that the other party will argue with you or NOT argue with you, depending solely on their personality rather than the actual merit of the plan or the evidence for/against.

One of my flaws is that I don't push my decisions enough. I made a decision, I didn't ask for input, so if someone comes and overrides my decision... rather than assuming they're an idiot, which is most likely the case... I say to myself, well, they knew my opinion. I made the decision to do X. If they want to screw us all by doing Y, I won't argue with it.

Obviously that's the wrong approach.

Blogger ThoughtCriminal November 14, 2018 5:01 PM  

Hahahaha. Thanks for laugh.

Blogger Johnny November 14, 2018 5:03 PM  

>?The question was "how does one present a theory one is not confident about without the gamma tell?"

The answer is that a tell is a tell, a clue. Not proof. And if you have to go through life never giving a gamma tell, then you are probably a self aware gamma.

An easy way of producing an uncertainty is to give the information a source. The sky is blue is declarative. George said the sky is blue pushes it off onto a source, thus allows for an element of doubt.

Blogger Thomas Howard November 14, 2018 5:13 PM  

Truly a suspicion that requires no correction.

Blogger Matthew November 14, 2018 5:15 PM  

I wonder if this gamma can list all the Greek letters in order, or if he only knows the first four.

Blogger VFM #7634 November 14, 2018 5:40 PM  

VD:

I know Delta stands for change, and Lambda is a homo symbol anyway, but what was the origin of Sigma?

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants November 14, 2018 6:46 PM  

I like to throw in some "So..." into my tweets, along with "just," in the bid to annoy leftists I'm interacting with, because they do it so often. Also fun, "Wow, what? Really?" and "You've LITERALLY got to be kidding me."

The only problem w/doing leftist passive-aggressive cuck speak, is I get so used to mimicking them, I accidently do it when I don't intend to.

Blogger VFM #7634 November 14, 2018 6:47 PM  

"Apparently he scaled up... poorly, at some point."

@Azure Amaranthine
Sure, but Alpha and Gamma behavior do have some commonalities. Such as complaining if they're not sufficiently respected. The main difference of course being that Gamma lacks the Alpha goods to back up their arrogance, as PA has pointed out.

Blogger VFM #7634 November 14, 2018 6:49 PM  

"I would tend to agree though. Arnold didn't start out as a loser."

Alphas don't necessarily make good decisions. It may be one reason leftists have a hard time believing Trump is actually very intelligent.

Blogger Meng Greenleaf November 14, 2018 9:59 PM  

Uppercase delta T for change in temperature is common. Lowercase delta for electron charge values. I have a habit of writing alpha as short hand for anti-, particularly with regards to antibodies and their antigens.

Blogger LP999-16 November 14, 2018 10:46 PM  

What is the problem? Vox laid out a very simple outline in the video made perfect sense to many!

Ben has no business in PA, go home. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t55XLX_wOY

Blogger Bibliotheca Servare November 15, 2018 12:24 AM  

I thought maybe the stairs were walled on both sides, and the letters were on the wall on your left as you ascended the stairs...in hindsight that was a silly thought. You'd have to hang the letters while standing *on the stairs* for that to be an option.

*Of course* the letters are on the side of the staircase where you can only read them when you *aren't on the stairs* duh. Boy do I feel slow. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me!

Blogger Harambe November 15, 2018 8:59 AM  

If you think "It seems..." is bad, wait till they start with the "Methinks..."

Blogger Rickaby007 November 15, 2018 9:02 AM  

In terms of behaviour, gammas are really narcissistic. I guess it's the solipsism, their denial of reality because it hurts them. Nothing is right unless it suits them. It's worth noting that most covert narcissists are gammas or gamma-esque. Very insecure about their identity and about how much of a loser they are while holding the contradictory belief that they are secret gods among men (because reality hurts too damn much). Covert narcissists are also notorious snipers. If trauma theory holds true, it may be because they were victims to abuse who couldn't overcome it. It instead mentally fractured them and they stayed childish losers.

Blogger James Dixon November 15, 2018 7:51 PM  

> If you think "It seems..." is bad, wait till they start with the "Methinks..."

They're not that literate. And to the few that are that's old white male language, so it's frowned upon.

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