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Monday, February 11, 2019

A triumph of clean speech

As a final act on SocialGalactic 1.0, I took a poll of its users to see what they thought of our new #cleanspeech policy. The results demonstrate very clearly why free speech is not a viable foundation for a new social media platform.

What do you think of SocialGalactic's #cleanspeech policy? (400 votes)
  • 80.8%: YES! I prefer limited and clean speech.
  • 04.8%: NO! I prefer completely free speech.
  • 14.5%: I really don't care either way.
In other words, more than 95 percent of potential early adopters either prefer the #cleanspeech model or don't mind it. What most people care about is not free speech per se, but rather, being able to speak their opinion, and speak the truth, without being subjected to abuse, harassment, and an unending flow of vulgarity, obscenity, and degeneracy. I think we can build on that concept for SocialGalactic 2.0.

Labels:

89 Comments:

Blogger Wuzzums Fuzzums February 11, 2019 8:17 AM  

I wanted to post this suggestion on the now deleted blogpost but didn't get the chance so I'm doing it here.

Years back I frequented a site that had a very neat comment system I've never seen anywhere else since. Each comment had the regular upvote and downvote (both were recorded) but the size of the font and the comment balloon itself changed accordingly. High upvotes would make the comment stand out to the point of being highlighted with large bold letters, high downvotes would hide the comment altogether (becoming transparent it just blended into the background). The downvoted comment would not get deleted, you could still see it were you to make an extra click on some tiny font. So for someone who was casually scrolling the timeline they would only see the upvoted clean posts and if they wanted to see the downvoted ones as well they have to go through one extra step for each. The added bonus is that it's also an incentive for users to interact with each post.

Blogger Brick Hardslab February 11, 2019 8:29 AM  

I like clean speech. I see no reason to do otherwise.

Blogger Danelle Blackman February 11, 2019 8:30 AM  

The particular set of rules any platform enforces is of minor importance compared to whether the rules are objectively interpreted and uniformly enforced.

Selective enforcement and protected classes of users to whom the rules do not apply are the larger problem to solve.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd February 11, 2019 8:38 AM  

The poll disappeared before I could weigh in with the 80.8%.

I was going to suggest banning blasphmey, and replacing vulgarity with stars, as Denninger's site does. For paying customers, perhaps there could be a switch that would turn off the stars, if there was demand.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan February 11, 2019 8:41 AM  

Only conservatives believe in free speech and human equality, they might as well believe in the Yeti for all the good that does them. Want to see embarrassing witness the white conservatives having a snit fit over the controversy of one of our natural betters the Somalian congressperson versus the really real natural betters the Jews, both the "betters" agreeing on one thing white conservatives do not have free speech, effing joke.

So yeah clean speech and do away with that fiction of "free."

Blogger Randy February 11, 2019 8:42 AM  

As C.S. Lewis described in 'Mere Christianity', words have gone from having specific meaning to being merely approval/disapproval. As such, they are used solely to shock & offend. I see no value in that, and consider it free-speech as long as the ideas aren't policed.

@Wuzzums Fuzzums - That sounds like a great idea, similar to slashdot's abbreviated/hidden comments. I'd also like to see collapsible/expandable threads.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd February 11, 2019 8:50 AM  

Randy wrote:I'd also like to see collapsible/expandable threads.

Threads here would be really nice! Threads let sub-discussions stick together. I moved too slowly, never got started on SG1.0, so I'm not sure whether they would be appropriate on SG2.0.

Blogger InformationMerchant February 11, 2019 8:53 AM  

Well, the free speech absolutists can still use Gab. The people that abandoned Gab did so for a reason, one of the most common being the results of their free speech policy.

If the AI doesn't break hyperlinks or cause issues with proper nouns that can't be replaced with synonyms, it won't be much of a sacrifice in order to filter out the clowns.

Actual free speech absolutism would be a disaster anyway as you'd soon get a brigade of people acting as if moderation invalidates the entire site and everyone involved. If you even drew a reasonable line, you'd still get people trying to get as close to the line as possible without crossing it. Much better to reserve the right to "arbitrarily" ban the guy that technically hasn't broken the rules due to his creative use of images, non standard characters and obvious proxies.

Blogger LZ February 11, 2019 9:06 AM  

Support, including words such as damn. It would be best if a post is quarantined, marked for deletion in X days if language isn't fixed, not account suspension. People could repost by editing the cussin' out.

I think it will work as an incredibly powerful troll filter. Sort of like how classical music drives punks away. Some folks will be annoyed, some will like getting nudged, but some will go away forever.

Twitter enforces a political standard, their standards are in the gutter as long as you don't upset a favored group. I see nothing wrong with limiting language that is designed to provoke. For example, the term "white privilege" should be verboten alongside cracker, spic and slopes.

Blogger Disciple of Kek February 11, 2019 9:12 AM  

Is there a place where the clean speech standards are referenced? I don't mind a bit of swearing, for instance, but would prefer some limitation on it; plus I don't want nudity, excessive gore pics (unless it is linked to and there is some relevant news related it it), and people making threats, etc. Not knowing the exact standards made it a bit hard to vote on the poll.

Blogger Dominik K. February 11, 2019 9:13 AM  

@ominous cowherd
Does blasphemy apply only to Christians? I love to criticize the pedo Mohamed and his cult of evil.

Blogger D.J. February 11, 2019 9:14 AM  

I found things a bit confusing on my brief foray. Perhaps I hadn't learned how to use it yet. I never figured out how to see a thread of posts/replies, for instance.

Still looking forward to trying again.

Blogger CarpeOro February 11, 2019 9:16 AM  

The majority are opting for civil discourse over what boils down to a shouting match by any other name (vulgarity having the same purpose as volume in the spoken word, to overwhelm by a shock to the senses).

Blogger Markku February 11, 2019 9:18 AM  

I'm not going to have any final word on this, since it's not directly my project, but as I was looking for moderators among OG Dread Ilk, I advised them to not be looking through a checklist when taking action. But rather, ask themselves the question: Based on everything they seen, is this person destructive to the community. And not whether a particular swear word appeared somewhere in the text, regardless of context.

This is "arbitrary" moderation in the archaic sense of that word. Some people won't like it, and Gab will welcome them with open arms.

Blogger Markku February 11, 2019 9:20 AM  

This is also why I sought volunteers from those whose names are generally trusted among other Ilk. This type of moderation requires a higher level of public trust than going through a checklist like a robot.

Blogger Johnny February 11, 2019 9:22 AM  

The one thing I find irritating about the censorship on this board is not knowing what the post was that got somebody kicked off. Or discouraged from posting. The result is that I never know for sure what the real policy is relative to the asserted policy. Not that I think there is some strong covert bias here. To the contrary, but that is always a possibility, and in some other places it is rampant. You know, the social media craziness.

Otherwise I am impressed with the amount of effort you put into this stuff. And of course the internet attracts people who only want to harass, and so much the better if they are gone.

Blogger Markku February 11, 2019 9:23 AM  

It's basically never just one post that does that over here. It's observing a long pattern. Sometimes for years.

Blogger Silent Draco February 11, 2019 9:24 AM  

I thoroughly enjoyed the couple days of chaotic discussion. Message threading was one of the side notes I had, also. Also captured the friends and followers, and some interesting posts; good call on another thread.

I appreciated the topics, reply and expansion, without looking over both shoulders for Our Betters to spoil the experience because of our badthink. This was refreshing, not having messages clogged with porn, excessive vulgarity, or idiocy. The posts were beginning to sort out into coherent discussions and shared experiences, at an adult level. This covered the range from sophomoric doggerel for fun (guilty) to beginnings of deep discussion on tech, faith, and the human condition, as just a few examples.

Clean speech will be an adaptive filter over time; first, eliminate the truly vulgar and degrading elements used as spray-paint graffiti, then modify written language and the mental patterns behind it. I would still expect some mild cursing or vulgarity, used for emphasis or used in haste; however, I also expect repentance and return. Adult conversation and entertainment had a very different context, 2-3 generations ago. Time to work back up to higher standards. Anyone who can't abide by this is welcome to the gutters.

"Sugartits" needs to be unredacted, because it's the perfect humorous warning and is classic Nate. You know an epic beatdown is about to occur.

Again, thanks. This was a good experiment with a lot of positives and negatives to learn from.

Blogger VD February 11, 2019 9:28 AM  

The one thing I find irritating about the censorship on this board is not knowing what the post was that got somebody kicked off. Or discouraged from posting. The result is that I never know for sure what the real policy is relative to the asserted policy.

That's understandable, but it's also irrelevant. I don't answer to anyone here. You don't need to know why I decided the discourse is better off for the absence of any given individual. You can either trust me to make reasonable decisions in this regard or not, but it will make no difference to me either way.

There is only one policy here: my opinion. Fortunately for those who prefer order to chaos, my opinion does not tend to be capricious, inconsistent, or unpredictable.

Blogger John Best February 11, 2019 9:36 AM  

Clean speech, now that is good rhetoric. Shall be using that for now on. As I support decency and blasphemy laws, I will be sure to join socialgalactic when I can and join the clean speech space.

Blogger Damelon Brinn February 11, 2019 9:38 AM  

I'm all for it. Cursing has its place. A harsh f-bomb dropped where it's not expected focused the listener like little else. But when your 60-year-old aunts are passing around "I fucking love science" memes, that's just creepy.

The only problem with a clean-speech policy is the sperges who can't/won't simply apply the common sense manners of discourse that we all abide by in real life every day. Sites try to provide them with black-and-white rules, which is impossible because speech is too varied and subtle. The determined offender can find a way around them, and the rules can become an attack vector for SJWs.

So any rules should be few and vague enough to let the moderators apply common sense, like real life. Moderation should be swift and hard to challenge. My church doesn't have a single rule about speech posted anywhere, but everyone understands what you can and can't say, and someone who crossed the line would be corrected quickly without any legalistic wrangling. If the sperges can't handle that, let them go elsewhere.

Blogger John rockwell February 11, 2019 9:39 AM  

Meanwhile God Emperor Trump parade in Italy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWjC_mrucY4

Blogger Crave February 11, 2019 9:42 AM  

My vote was cast in the "no cares" category because my background has put me in vicious shark tanks of rhetoric and verbal abuse, and the water seems fine enough for swimming. That said, I prefer to behave politely. Positive influence from others and rules to guide behavior is necessary for properly functioning societies. If you want your community reflecting western values, then don't act like an ape reflecting jungle values.

Blogger tz February 11, 2019 9:42 AM  

DialecticGalactic?

... without being subjected to abuse, harassment, and an unending flow of vulgarity, obscenity, and degeneracy.

The devil is in the details. This is what Twitter and others seem to be saying with their anti-abuse policies, only they apply them only to the right.

The poll didn't define anything so everyone has their idea of "clean" and doesn't think the "limits" will apply to them.

The story at the end of Judges 19 is rather ugly. It would be permitted because it is in the bible, but something less so in ordinary context wouldn't be?

The most hated thing is not the banning but the ambiguity and uneven application. If you wish to do this you will need clear rules with very bright lines. And then ask if that specific set of rules is too restrictive, to permissive, or just right. Even then you will have complaints about how you aren't enforcing them in some cases and the converse that a post was banned in error.

Blogger sammibandit February 11, 2019 9:49 AM  

What's your stance on CAIR affiliate Yaqueen Institute articles on SoGal Chan? Asking for a ... not friend.

Blogger Korppi on oikeus February 11, 2019 9:50 AM  

CivilGalactic seems like a good idea.

Blogger DonReynolds February 11, 2019 9:52 AM  

I agree completely and encourage you in every way.

To the Leftists there are NO words that would constitute profane, or obscene, or degenerate. I take that back and retype there are very few actual forbidden words and anyone who uses those words must be driven from the workplace and the marketplace and government. All of the forbidden words to Leftists are words that cause the Earth to collapse, but ONLY if they are spoken by whites. None of the words that are commonly considered profane, obscene, or degenerate are forbidden by the Leftists. In fact, they giggle with delight anytime they can shoehorn such words into a broadcast or print media.

Forbidden speech for the Leftists is what they consider bad think. They are not words but ideas, and they will burn the entire valley to stamp out one person engaged in wrong think or anything contrary to the Leftist Liberal agenda. We know this because that is exactly what the converged Leftist big tech does every day on the internet. It is precisely bad think and wrong think that motivates you to build your own platforms and sites.

Vox, you are not going to get banned and broken and harassed because of dirty speech or vulgar speech. You already know that. But the Leftists who control the internet will burn down the rest of the world to keep you from hosting the wrong ideas. The issue is not going to be privacy of users. The issue is whether even a few people are allowed to question or challenge the Leftist orthodoxy.

Blogger Lushtree February 11, 2019 9:53 AM  

"If you wish to do this you will need clear rules with very bright lines."

This sounds good, but it does not work. No matter how clear the rules, people will break the spirit and claim to abide by the letter, because they are petty, evil jerks. A specific rule set with top-down enforcement is a liabilty rather than an asset.

The best way to deal with things is a mixture of absolute rules enforced impartially by A.I. (these should be written), a more general set of vague rules enforced by human moderators, and finally a general attitude and culture enforced by the population.

Blogger Silly but True February 11, 2019 9:56 AM  

Markku’s take is the correct one: essentially the “No Asshole” rule. It’s organizational conduct 101.

We have to trust people all the time: so trust moderators for their judgment, not fealty to a checkbox list that people willingly seek to game anyway.

Blogger Damelon Brinn February 11, 2019 10:06 AM  

If you wish to do this you will need clear rules with very bright lines.

Any rules should be very clear, yes. But they should be as few as possible, and should mostly be concerned with process: what can moderators do, how long do bans last, what's the appeal process, etc. They shouldn't try to define what is or isn't clean speech, because it's like the classic line about pornography: you can't define it in legal terms, but you know it when you see it. Trying to define it strictly just becomes a game between the moderators and the trolls who outnumber them.

My first rule, or maybe it's a motto, would be: "No post is precious." I'm amazed when I see people on sites like reddit complaining that they got downvotes on a comment. How do you KNOW you got downvotes? Why are you checking? Someone said something, and you said something in response, now get on with your life. If people downvoted it or a moderator deleted it, maybe your post was stupid, or maybe they were having a bad day. Unless it happens to you all the time (in which case it's you), who cares?

Blogger Markku February 11, 2019 10:09 AM  

If you wish to do this you will need clear rules with very bright lines.

Not happening.

Blogger DonReynolds February 11, 2019 10:15 AM  

In London, Hyde Park was traditionally where ideas could be freely discussed and it was the usual haunt for anarchists, communists, fascists, and the like. Some people asked why speakers were allowed to say those things in public and the police would say...We had rather know who they are than for such talk to only be in secret.

The last time I was in Hyde Park, I noticed that the communists, radical feminists, homosexuals, vegans, and extremists environmentalists had taken over the venue. They did not tolerate anyone speaking to the contrary of their positions, so you could say this is the Leftist Alliance, with many different fronts.

Central Park in New York City at one time fulfilled that same function, a place where the wrong ideas could be openly discussed and debated. A number of major cities had similar park venues...Chicago, San Francisco, and the like. Their experience was much the same. ONLY Leftist ideas are allowed to be discussed today in public and they are always the same ones.

Blogger FUBARwest February 11, 2019 10:15 AM  

"Not happening."

I addressed this in my post in the deleted thread yesterday. With regards to language, is there a plan regarding how moderators deal with slang?

100% for no nudity/pornography and waiting to see how the no vulgarity policy is implemented without clear set guidelines.

Blogger artensoll February 11, 2019 10:16 AM  

I appreciate being treated as a grown-up with common sense and decency. I do not need strict rules to abide by and "don't be an arsehole" is all the code of conduct a reasonably intelligent adult should require. I trust anyone trusted by Vox to fairly moderate the platform. #CleanSpeech is defo the way to go.

Blogger Damn the torpedos February 11, 2019 10:16 AM  

Absolutely agree.

I don’t care if I’m prevented from swearing like a sailor. The only thing I care about is being able to express my thoughts without fear of censorship/doxing.

Leftie social media foists degeneracy on kids. YouTube’s algorithms are particularly hideous at times, pushing music videos with nudity etc into the feeds of young people. Glad Social Galactic is taking a stand for decency.

Blogger Markku February 11, 2019 10:18 AM  

With regards to language, is there a plan regarding how moderators deal with slang?

This is going to too much detail for me to say. I don't really have any power over that.

My preference is that moderate words like "damn" and "asshole" are always tolerated. "Fuck" needs contextual justification.

Blogger Careless Whisper February 11, 2019 10:21 AM  

I like these rules, but I only like them in the context of VD and the VFM being the ones enforcing them. The VP blog is a kind of high trust society, and exporting it wholesale to a social media site setup means that outsiders are going to have to figure out what everyone who posts here understands are the parameters.

The downside will be the danger of the place becoming a clubhouse for like minded persons on the Christian dissident right. If you call that a downside, that is. I personally think that's a more valuable thing than a functional Twitter clone. I suspect all of the regulars here probably feel the same way, inasmuch as they regularly defer to these community standards anyway.

New signups are the variable. How would you poll them? I have no idea. I propose laying things out as a benevolent dictatorship and telling the newcomers LURK MOAR and they'll figure things out themselves.

(Only obstacle I foresee, on a related note, is how much use of vulgar chan-speech will be tolerated, ironic or otherwise. More than a few Christian dissident right bloggers I follow use it from time to time, and I suspect there will probably be similar earnest people who cross lines of politeness without realizing it.)

Blogger Markku February 11, 2019 10:22 AM  

Personally I wouldn't delete "don't be a cunt" if the person, in fact, was being a total cunt.

Blogger Markku February 11, 2019 10:22 AM  

But if you choose to do that and it gets deleted, then it gets deleted.

Blogger Markku February 11, 2019 10:26 AM  

We will want to draw the lines in such a way that it lines with most of the moderators' instincts. Moderating is difficult when you have to always be guessing where someone ELSE would draw a line. These are all details, to be discussed. Right now the principle is more important.

Blogger rcocean February 11, 2019 10:27 AM  

There's always X number of loudmouths who always complain about Rules and Order. "Its cramping my style man". These types always love Trolls too. Whether they are secretly trying to sabotage the comments section, or just plain stupid is up for debate. And no we don't need a massive outreach to liberals so we can play crossfire. There are 1000 places on the web where you can do that.

Blogger Patrick Kelly February 11, 2019 10:27 AM  

VD wrote:
... my opinion does not tend to be capricious, inconsistent, or unpredictable.


My desire to know why a comment was deleted or a frequent poster was banned is more out of morbid curiosity about wtf did they say to annoy VD this time rather than concern. I seriously doubt we're missing much thoughtful or profound content as a result.

Blogger Damelon Brinn February 11, 2019 10:32 AM  

There used to be a common, unenforced "rule" online that you should lurk for two weeks in any forum before posting. That gives you a chance to get familiar with the community's boundaries of topics and speech so you don't step on toes or make a fool of yourself right out of the gate.

I don't know whether a social media site could enforce that sort of two-week no-posting probationary period for new users. Seems like it would be a good thing, but it might put too many people off these days, when every other site is encouraging you to express every thought you have.

Blogger InformationMerchant February 11, 2019 10:33 AM  

@24 You can't have clear bright lines. Letter of the law isn't as good as spirit of the law in this instance. For example, a no nudity rule is really simple for everyone to understand. You'll be unable to enforce this clear bright line against people that deliberately blur the lines with the tiniest black circles "to follow the rules", people in sheer clothing, drawings which can be further blurred down to stick figures, etc.

Meanwhile Owen Benjamin got banned from livestreaming on his main Youtube account a few months ago for showing a clip of a nature documentary. The animals were deemed obscene.

These are the fun games you'll sign up for with letter of the law policing. That's one of the most easy to understand and least controversial rules. It's so much easier if the guy that's trying to be destructive is banned but someone that posts the alternative cover of Alt Hero #1 is not.

Blogger Peaceful Poster February 11, 2019 10:35 AM  

@Markku - Personally I wouldn't delete "don't be a cunt" if the person, in fact, was being a total cunt.

This brings up the difficulties of moderating an international site. The expression above is a regular expression in Britain, but generally considered offside in the USA.

Blogger Patrick Kelly February 11, 2019 10:47 AM  

Strict and clear rules are always subject to very human interpretation and application. Vox and his moderators and enforcers have a very long and strong history of interaction with each other and commenters. Anyone who visits and values this blog for a lengthy time has invested a bit of trust in them.

I would expect any other online policed by the same people to have similar content and experience.

Blogger Resident Moron™ February 11, 2019 10:54 AM  

I’d be happy to live with Markku’s rules. Sometimes you simply have to say fuck.

If it’s all you have to say then fuck off.

Blogger Resident Moron™ February 11, 2019 10:58 AM  

OTOH, if all vulgarity was banned I’d still be a supporter. I’d consider that the challenge of developing John C Wright level skills at calling other people terminally stupid arseholes without ever using a remotely vulgar term, to be worthy of taking up.

Blogger Resident Moron™ February 11, 2019 10:59 AM  

And lettface, I probably already tend too far in the opposite direction. A bad combination of cultural origin and personal inclination.

Blogger Resident Moron™ February 11, 2019 10:59 AM  

“And let’s face it ... etc”

Blogger Fargoth February 11, 2019 11:35 AM  

My Nana always said, "Cursing just shows a lack of vocabulary"

Blogger SciVo February 11, 2019 11:44 AM  

As I said in reply to the poll, leftists lack a proper disgust reflex. So, even if you enjoy a good fight every now and then, you can never outlast a pig in its own wallow -- and if you do, then you degrade yourself and become porcine.

Anyway, I find that the anti-vulgarity rules here gave my vocabulary a workout, and I now feel that I can thrown down a good rant more effectively than before.

Blogger Steampunk Koala February 11, 2019 12:16 PM  

"If you wish to do this you will need clear rules with very bright lines"

Clear rules and bright lines requires shared values and acting in good faith. As we have seen from both Twitter and Gab, this is not the case. The same thing happened with the Constitution. There is no rule so clear that bad actors cannot find purchase to twist its meaning until it's inverted. Just the Darkstream comment feeds about the matter are sufficient to demonstrate the number of people looking to skirt the intent of any rules.

Blogger lowercaseb February 11, 2019 12:25 PM  

Free Speech is like gun ownership. Yes, you have the right to own them, and you should have the right to carry them in public but your community is going to take action if you are constantly firing them off in a public space for no reason!

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener February 11, 2019 12:27 PM  

The style of moderation practiced here is one of the great strengths of this blog. If that could be scaled up for SocialGalactic it would be awesome.

Blogger Silent Draco February 11, 2019 12:27 PM  

Well, there's the Law of Nightmare Consequences, which involves a hunt by the VFM. If it gets to that law, someone is way too short for the ride.

Blogger lowercaseb February 11, 2019 12:32 PM  

We will want to draw the lines in such a way that it lines with most of the moderators' instincts.

I think this is the golden rule. One of the things I like about #cleanspeech is one of the things I like about this blog. It makes you think before you hit that post button.

Blogger 1st Earl Hardwicke February 11, 2019 12:38 PM  

Is there a way to get some kind of Guild/Clan system going? Anyway my 2 cents.

1) More select people to follow.
2) Better quality control.
3) Ranked members. Distributed enforcement of clean speech.
4) Smaller groupings. Less overwhelmed by text.
5) Better grouping of interests.
6) Better match of intelligence and communication skills.
7) Potential for elites.

Blogger Jeroth February 11, 2019 12:41 PM  

The clean speech thing makes this platform interestingly unique. I'm guessing some Christian oriented sites have done this, but go far beyond into censoring ideas, which just throws the baby out with the bathwater.

Am I clear that you can basically talk about anything as long as it is done in the proper way? I.e., Holocaust denial is okay, but spamming everyone's timeline with hot takes about it isn't?

And are memes not allowed? Vox briefly mentioned this in one of his streams. He said "dank" so I wasn't sure if he meant that as an analogy for obscene or if it includes all purely rhetorical image content? Would pepe/apu/groyper avitars be allowed?

Blogger Jack Ward February 11, 2019 1:04 PM  

Sounds like a PLAN I can stand with. In spite of limited time crawl the social media paths, I look forward to that day. As Nathan famously said, 'Keep up the skeer'

Blogger VFM #4388 February 11, 2019 1:26 PM  

Well, there's the Law of Nightmare Consequences, which involves a hunt by the VFM. If it gets to that law, someone is way too short for the ride.

What?

Oh. I heard someone say hunt. My bad.

And are memes not allowed?

Dank memes belong in the chans. Bespoke memes may be employed with care on the Core. It's like culinary mycology: I like shiitake in my kitchen, but that's no excuse to bring in a wheelbarrow of manure, and if someone known for spreading manure starts to complain about the lack of mushrooms in the house, I'd rather send him to another house than permit him to rummage around in the pantry.

Blogger Gallant February 11, 2019 2:22 PM  

There's a concern that the speech could become so granular in purpose that a site isn't worth it for most people, even the polite elements of the unauthorized right.

I think of Twitter, and that leftists don't have any real complaints about twitter (except that they haven't kicked off enough conservatives) - it is the right looking for alternatives due to being kicked off, not the left. It could be that Twitter is a very good model, other than being run by the other team. I.e. the left doesn't need the chans, they *can* explore their ideas on twitter.

It could be very difficult to replace Twitter - Gab may be demonstrating this due to being predominantly ideologues of one side, undiluted by the presence of 'normies'.

Blogger Lance E February 11, 2019 2:47 PM  

Markku wrote:I'm not going to have any final word on this, since it's not directly my project, but as I was looking for moderators among OG Dread Ilk, I advised them to not be looking through a checklist when taking action. But rather, ask themselves the question: Based on everything they seen, is this person destructive to the community. And not whether a particular swear word appeared somewhere in the text, regardless of context.

This is "arbitrary" moderation in the archaic sense of that word. Some people won't like it, and Gab will welcome them with open arms.


I support this 100%. A lot of folks are railing against arbitrary authority and the lack of "objective" standards, but that's not the problem. The problem with Twitter is that weak people are in charge, and the problem with Gab is that no one's in charge.

No community can survive very long without strong leadership. And almost any strong leadership is better than almost any weak/nonexistent leadership, regardless of their particular styles or beliefs.

Blogger VD February 11, 2019 2:54 PM  

If you wish to do this you will need clear rules with very bright lines. And then ask if that specific set of rules is too restrictive, to permissive, or just right.

You clearly have no idea how to keep the trolls and monkey-wrenchers under control. You could not be more wrong. I've been doing this successfully for 16 years, and with far inferior tools than those we'll develop.

Blogger Silly but True February 11, 2019 3:03 PM  

All bets are off when you have a freshman Senator drop a plan to pay lazy people and eradicate fossil fuels in 10 years. What hopes do social media platforms have in 2019?

Blogger James Dixon February 11, 2019 3:44 PM  

> All bets are off when you have a freshman Senator drop a plan to pay lazy people and eradicate fossil fuels in 10 years.

Relax, we only have to put up with them for 12 years. AOC says so.

Blogger Achilles February 11, 2019 4:04 PM  

Sounds boring and a haven for snowflakes.

Blogger megabar February 11, 2019 5:07 PM  

I look forward to the relaunched, clean-speech SG. Thanks for doing, while many of us are content to talk.

Blogger Sheila4g February 11, 2019 5:18 PM  

I never even got around to sampling alt social media for the brief time it was extant. I've never used Facebook or Twitter etc. However, I am intrigued by the prospect of a legitimate alternative that would not censor badthink. I have severely curtailed my online reading and commenting already - the first because so few sites are worth the time any more; the second because I've either been banned (anti-semitic, racist, what have you) or the perceived futility of rational discourse with fake Americans, Boomers. TruCons, etc. Here, I find little need to comment because multiple people will already have made any point I considered, and I learn far more from reading rather than opining.

Don't have any idea whether it would be practical on the scale you're considering, but one of the many pluses here is lack of reinvinting the wheel. One rarely sees people proposing IKAGOs = policy without been rapidly and ruthlessly shot down. At Sailer's site, for example, there's constant special pleading by Jews, Asians, a purported pro-White radical feminist, etc. It's entirely predictable and I will no longer wade through it. Same has now happened to Audacious Epigone - entire threads dominated by a Korean-American, a Mohammedan American, and the same damned purported White feminist who argues endlessly for grrl power. If there's any way to avoid becoming a clone of that, do whatever you will. As for the rest, as @23 Crave noted, "If you want your community reflecting western values, then don't act like an ape reflecting jungle values."

Blogger Markku February 11, 2019 5:35 PM  

Remember, we don't need to catch every destructive moron in the moderation net. We just have to make that pattern of behaviour unwelcome, and it will self-select itself to Gab.

Blogger megabar February 11, 2019 5:54 PM  

@67
Are you suggesting that communication must be vulgar to be exciting and/or challenging?

Blogger Dave February 11, 2019 5:56 PM  

Silly but True wrote:All bets are off when you have a freshman Senator drop a plan to pay lazy people and eradicate fossil fuels in 10 years. What hopes do social media platforms have in 2019?

She's in the House not the Senate. And she can propose New Deals all day long, but if it ain't on Nancy Pelosi's agenda, it's all just a show for the media and her followers. She'll be lucky to even be back in the House in 2 years as they re-district her.

Blogger VD February 11, 2019 6:10 PM  

Sounds boring and a haven for snowflakes.

Good, stay away. Since this place is pretty much governed by the same policies, you should stay away from here too.

Blogger Clint February 11, 2019 6:16 PM  

If you know anything about the Dread Ilk, you know we are not boring, nor snowflakes, and we even police ourselves. If we cared to do so, we could regale you will some major moderating we have done in our own groups of one another. It works. Yeah, some may bitch and moan, but it keeps the place civil.

Blogger stevo February 11, 2019 7:26 PM  

I tried minds and gab. The hard thing for me is the lack of familiar voices and just the general awkwardness of finding new friends. Social galactic was much easier ( briefly) because so many new people were on the same page. Twitter of course has the added attraction of beong filled with people I love to hate. But you can't have everything

Blogger Edgar Abbey February 11, 2019 8:06 PM  

Back in the early 90s, when I used to post on CompuServe message boards, I always found that the best moderated boards were those that followed 3 strict rules:

1. No vulgarity.
2. No personal attacks. You can call someone's idea stupid, but don't call them stupid.
3. No threats. That would include doxxing.

It sounds like your policy is right in line with what I remember as best practice from the early 90s.

Blogger Goes211 February 11, 2019 11:59 PM  

VD this is your blog and it is clearly your right to filter however you feel appropriate. I also agree that some sort of filtered speech will be better for a public forumn, like social galactic, than total free speech.

When you say you don't believe in "clear rules with very bright lines" are you saying that you don't want consistency in moderation or do you want it to be mostly consist (I know there will never be total consistency) but think its better to keep the posters guessing where that line is? If the former then it seems likely to lead to corruption of moderators because the ability to censor opinions they just don't like is quite tempting. If it is the later, I can see how having some wiggle room for moderators can be beneficial.

Blogger Innamorato February 12, 2019 12:37 AM  

It's hilarious to me how many concern trolls come out of the woodwork when you attack any one of the Englightenment sacred cows.

Blogger Kristophr February 12, 2019 12:47 AM  

General George Washington could burn the ears off some idiot without once committing a single blasphemy.

Staying within these rules will make me think before posting.

Blogger Damelon Brinn February 12, 2019 1:18 AM  

When you say you don't believe in "clear rules with very bright lines"

Think about how it works in real life every day. My church doesn't have a single rule about appropriate speech. Yet people manage to figure out where the limits are. If someone is too socially awkward to manage that and sits around the church hall swearing, someone will tell him to cut it out, and if he doesn't, he will be shown the door.

All that happens without any clear rules, and it doesn't corrupt those who enforce it. It's just how human beings in a community operate. For some reason, that gets lost online, and people look to replace common sense and human interaction with rules.

And if your moderators are the type to censor opinions they disagree with, you can't fix that with rules.

Blogger Damaris Tighe February 12, 2019 1:48 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Archella February 12, 2019 2:44 AM  

Excited for Social Galactic 2.0. I voted for clean speech. Listening to the Darkstream now.

Blogger Markku February 12, 2019 5:31 AM  

Goes211 wrote:VD this is your blog and it is clearly your right to filter however you feel appropriate. I also agree that some sort of filtered speech will be better for a public forumn, like social galactic, than total free speech.

When you say you don't believe in "clear rules with very bright lines" are you saying that you don't want consistency in moderation or do you want it to be mostly consist (I know there will never be total consistency) but think its better to keep the posters guessing where that line is? If the former then it seems likely to lead to corruption of moderators because the ability to censor opinions they just don't like is quite tempting. If it is the later, I can see how having some wiggle room for moderators can be beneficial.


I've explained it several times. The moderators are not instructed to go down a checklist of behaviors, like if a particular curse word occurs in the message regardless of context. They are instructed to make a judgment call about whether this person is destructive to the community. Often this will be based on observing a pattern for a while.

The overwhelming majority of the list of volunteers I sent to Vox are parents. They know how this works with their own kids. They will all have the genuine interests of Infogalactic in mind, and not their own egos. If someone appears to have his own ego in mind, based on his moderation track record, then we will have a talk with him.

Blogger Silent Draco February 12, 2019 5:37 AM  

Sheila, the cruiser Ikago was sunk while attempting to run the Strsits of Reason. It capsized after hits from four logic-guided bombs, and strafing with auto-rhetoric cannon. There were no survivors. Its sister ship occasionally make the attempt, but never fixed their fatal design flaws. The Aboutmeeee wasn't sunk, but is routinely shelled into a cripple for the amusement of the Dread Ilk.

Blogger Z Malfoy February 12, 2019 10:06 AM  

Hopping back into this thread to mention that even that short, brief moment of SocialGalactic has ruined me for other services. My social media habits are notably altered, even from a few days expose to Honest Conversation. When version 2.0 is released, it will Change Everything.

Blogger Linda Fox February 12, 2019 5:13 PM  

The thing is, when you say "free speech", immediately some chucklehead takes it as his personal mission to push the boundaries outward.

For such people, it's not about communication - it's about transgression as a performative art.

Most of us just want to be able to interact without watching every word. Not possible on regular social media. It would be such a relief to have a place to "take our shoes off" and relax.

Blogger Faust February 12, 2019 9:17 PM  

Very happy for you and the team on the "fast failure" approach to social galactic. There's a good lesson in there to take from you that I would appreciate applying in my own current situation. Good luck on 2.0, team!

Blogger CA3 February 12, 2019 10:10 PM  

What is "clean speech"?

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