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Wednesday, February 27, 2019

Africa saves the Methodists

The African delegation ensures the exit of the sodomite churchians who have been trying to converge the United Methodist Church:
After days of passionate debate, deliberation, and prayer—and years of tension within the denomination—The United Methodist Church (UMC) voted Tuesday to maintain its traditional stance against same-sex marriage and non-celibate gay clergy, bolstered by a growing conservative contingent from Africa.

The plan passed, with 438 votes in favor and 384 against (53% to 47%), in the final hours of a special UMC conference held this week in St. Louis to address the issue of human sexuality.

The decision leaves a sizable, vocal opposition, ensuring the exit of many progressive pastors and churches in the largest mainstream Protestant body in the US.

After the final vote, protesters began chanting, “no” and “stop the harm” through the rest of the session until the conference ended over an hour later.

The “Traditional Plan” preserves existing UMC positions and adds further accountability measures for those who violate them by performing same-sex ceremonies or ordaining gay clergy. But this is not the outcome many Americans, including most bishops, had been praying for.

In the States, a large portion of Methodists wanted to see the church accommodate LGBT ceremonies and clergy, as other mainline denominations have done in recent years. One poll through Mainstream UMC reported at least two-thirds of US delegates supported the inclusive “One Church Plan” instead.

But the growing global presence among the 12 million-member denomination held more sway. Methodists from outside the US, who favor more traditional positions on sexuality, made up 41 percent of the 864 delegates at the general conference, including a full 30 percent from Africa.
It's reprehensible that the vote was anywhere nearly that close. But good riddance to all the churchians; those that don't leave of their own volition should be excommunicated without hesitation. There is no place in any Christian church for gay or female leadership of any kind; any so-called "church" that permits gay, female, or child leadership is Churchian, not Christian, at best. It is informative to contemplate  how much convergence would have been avoided, and how much sexual abuse would have been prevented, had the various Christian churches that allowed themselves to become converged instead followed the clear instructions on the Bible concerning who is permitted leadership in the church.

An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Appoint elders who genuinely love what is good and what is true, not those who call good evil, and call evil good.

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94 Comments:

Blogger Dave Dave February 27, 2019 5:31 AM  

I left my local Uniting Church because they were preaching fake Christianity and let a woman lead the church. My country also recently had Cardinal Pell charged with several counts of child abuse. At least that's one fake Christian locked up, but we have to go for the rest.

Blogger Roger Hill February 27, 2019 5:33 AM  

I wonder if the converged U.S. delegates realized that the very inclusiveness they champion helped ruin their dreams? There is some irony here. These same advocates for inclusion might want to think twice about including the Africans at the next assembly.

Blogger JACIII February 27, 2019 5:54 AM  

Watched so of that conference. I'm sure the chanting had the same effect on those who voted to boot the fags as a mans ex attempting to nag him; solid confirmation you made the right choice.

Blogger wreckage February 27, 2019 6:03 AM  

@1 The uniting Church in Oz really did go straight down the crapper. Lost their entire congregation in most small towns as far as I know; and I don't think the larger places did any better.

Blogger wreckage February 27, 2019 6:05 AM  

"End the harm".... what harm? If being denied the pulpit does harm, surely everyone is being harmed equally who is denied?
Note these people weren't chanting or gathering over child abuse. Only about gays and women being clergy. So being denied the pulpit is evidently worse than being raped.
I had no idea I was being harmed so terribly by not being made a minister.

Blogger Servant of the Chief February 27, 2019 6:05 AM  

Of all the protestants I had not expected the Methodists of all people to make a stand on this. Thank God for the Africans (who'd thought any of us would say that?).

Its the same with the Catholic Church right now, our African and Asian contingents are exploding in numbers and far more traditional, despite all the miniature heresies endemic to converting non-Christian peoples cropping up, the liberal Bishops who want to change teaching can't stand them.

Blogger Zach February 27, 2019 6:28 AM  

Same sequence as Anglicanism:

1. Liberals spend a generation saying "we must get out of our Comfort Zones and Listen To The Voice Of The Other in our marginalized African and Asian brethren"

2. Africans and Asians: "we stand firm for the Gospel of Jesus Christ and against your gay heresy"

3. Liberals: "who invited these ignorant backward savages? Don't they understand Progress? I am triggered!!"

Blogger John Best February 27, 2019 6:45 AM  

People are learning from the mistakes of other Churches this is good.

Blogger JD Curtis February 27, 2019 6:47 AM  

I stopped going to my local UM church recently as well. They were generally nice people and all and the senior pastor seemed very intelligent. However, I didn't much care to be shamed in to supporting sodomy and opposing common sense immigration laws. Apart from feel goody God Is Love sermons I struggled to understand what else they as a group actually stood for.

Blogger Bobiojimbo February 27, 2019 6:57 AM  

"After the final vote, protesters began chanting, 'no' and 'stop the harm' through the rest of the session until the conference ended over an hour later."

Total NPCs.

Blogger Kari Hall February 27, 2019 6:58 AM  

Praise God from whom all blessings flow!
Thank all who supported this with prayer. Yes, our African brothers and sisters in Christ did save us, but do not assume there were none here in the US who haven't been fighting this battle, some of us for 30yrs, while others took the easy way and threw their hands up and walked out the door leaving us to do this with nothing but God's merciful help.
The United Methodist Church, like any traditional institution in the west is converged, and quite frankly a church full of normmy sheep do not fight. Normies are like sheep who are docile and follow blindly easily led astray. There is work to be done and now a clear place to do it.
See you in the local Methodist Church this Sunday.

Blogger The Cooler February 27, 2019 7:01 AM  

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:21-23

Blogger McChuck February 27, 2019 7:09 AM  

The pink mafia exists to destroy the church. They are the foot soldiers of the antichrist.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan February 27, 2019 7:15 AM  

Who would benefit the most from the leadership espoused in that last paragraph, women, children and gays.

Who is hurt the worst by the cruel NPCs, women, children and gays.

Blogger Don't Call Me Len February 27, 2019 7:20 AM  

@10 - NPCs running on Baby's First Script. Always so puerile.

Blogger I’ve Seen Things You People Wouldn’t Believe February 27, 2019 7:24 AM  

The Methodists allowed this to fester for 30+ years, by ignoring leaders who defied the Book of Discipline, and by permitting the various seminaries to pursue SJW teaching above Christian teaching. They let it grow to the point that they have appointed openly gay bishops who continue to defy Church law. It was clear that Church leadership had no intention of following their own clear rules, and so encouraged the rot that has overtaken the Church.

Had they acted swiftly and decisively 30 years ago, they could have avoided schism. As it stands, by their own actions they have guaranteed it.

Blogger Cloudbuster February 27, 2019 7:27 AM  

"non-celibate gay clergy"

If someone is known to be gay, they shouldn't be in church leadership even if they're purported to be celibate. Look at the debacle in the Catholic Church.

Blogger bobby February 27, 2019 7:33 AM  

This is going to be a huge mess.

In spite of Dr. Kulah's fine statement in St. Louis the other day, it remains true that the churches that remain faithful to traditional doctrine lie in poor parts of the world, while the "progressive" churches that wanted the One Church policy to win are richer and better-established. It's doubtful that many churches in Africa, for instance, can survive in their present form without American-church financial assistance.

There's also going to be a protracted fight over how the "trust" doctrine will affect how the church can be broken up, if it does break up. According to this doctrine, each and every church property and asset in any location is held in trust for all church members. This is supposed to mean that a high-buck property in NYC belongs just as much to each South African member as it does to each NYC member. But watch, now, as this doctrine gets re-interpreted in a manner that lets the "progressive" churches try to blackmail the poor churches out of a just breakup, all in an attempt to coerce them into allowing for the One Church policy to prevail.

The church also has a rather huge debt built up in money owed - now and in the future - as pensions to thousands of retired and retiring ministers and workers. This is also going to be used as a hammer on the poor churches.

It'll be interesting to see just how "Christ-like" the relatively rich LGBT-based American churches are going to be as this all goes down. We already know there's no evil so bad that it can't be done to the unwoke by the woke.

Blogger The Cooler February 27, 2019 7:33 AM  

It boggles the mind that all of this is even a thing. There is quite literally nothing to debate. The Bible is consistent through both Old and New Testaments in confirming that homosexuality is a sin (Genesis 19:1–13; Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Romans 1:26–27; 1 Corinthians 6:9; Jude 1:7). Indeed, the New Testament reinforces what the Old Testament had declared since the Law was given to Moses (Leviticus 20:13). The only difference between the Old and New Testaments is that the New Testament offers hope and restoration to homosexuals. I don't know what flavor retard one has to be to interpret this as 'get married, poofters!' but here we are.

It is simply not possible to have even a modicum of biblical knowledge and not only accept faggotry, but to 'marry' fags and have them managing a flock. Those that approve of this are not Christians. Dead stop.

The Devil gets his due in all of this, but do-gooders are also to blame, who originally invited these sorts in to fellowship and help redeem. But as my father used to say, do-gooders will be the death of us all.



Blogger Paul M February 27, 2019 7:34 AM  

Next they need to adopt the rule that the RC church has had for millennia: no remarriage for divorced women.

Blogger Nate February 27, 2019 7:36 AM  

There was no enforcement mechanism. The system relied on the bishops to enforce the discipline. But the bishops were elected. So as the churches and conferences got converged.. That's when you saw the open defiance start happening. They knew their bishops would protect them so they showed their true selves. As for the bishops.. There was no accountibility for bishops at all. They were above the law.

Blogger Cataline Sergius February 27, 2019 7:40 AM  

Honestly, this shocks me. The Methodists took a stand?

The Methodists?

I had honestly thought they were worse than the Anglican Church.

I remember writing off the entire denomination back in the mid-eighties when the church leadership published a long and flowery letter condemning Reagan's SDI.

I can only guess they were so badly converged that the diseased limbs have started to die off, healthy branches have grown strong enough to choke them out.

Blogger Sillon Bono February 27, 2019 7:43 AM  

And the Catholics don't allow their priest to marry, just so the Church can maintain all their earthly material possessions.

So go figure if "The Gay" has infiltrated, rotten to the core.

Blogger Dave February 27, 2019 7:48 AM  

OT bwahaha https://boundingintocomics.com/2019/02/26/rotten-tomatoes-redesigns-website-to-remove-audience-interest-score-after-fake-news-about-captain-marvel-review-bombs/

Blogger Mr.MantraMan February 27, 2019 7:50 AM  

I can understand the schism from a cultural standpoint, in America which white man can withstand the whining and pleading from despairing young women and their enablers/handlers? In Africa where life is not about getting the proper excess of sugar treats and cultural enabling to such special pleaders men rise for now.

I say that because I saw a picture from this conference of 4 of the "No" chanters and it was as expected 3 very obese and unattractive white women and an flabby white soyman, looking sad by the way, very sad.

Blogger Johnny February 27, 2019 7:59 AM  

>>Apart from feel goody God Is Love sermons I struggled to understand what else they as a group actually stood for.

That is what a lot of churches are. Feels good attending and not much else.

I would favor excommunication only for those who are given to promoting whatever sin they are into. But surely a leadership role is also unwise.

Blogger ZhukovG February 27, 2019 8:13 AM  

Could we perhaps celebrate and praise God for this victory rather than sinking into yet another impotent round of Protestant vs. Catholic?

Smugness in one's theological superiority hasn't slowed any denomination's descent into the convergence cesspit.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 27, 2019 8:22 AM  

"I can understand the schism"

What schism? Schism implies the church split. This church didn't split. It's just cutting off the deadwood.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 27, 2019 8:23 AM  

"Smugness in one's theological superiority hasn't slowed any denomination's descent into the convergence cesspit."

This.

Blogger Johnny February 27, 2019 8:26 AM  

IIRC, Jerry Falwell used to like to say that we "Love the sinner but hate the sin." And here and there, there are people who stress that in child rearing you should never tell the child that they are bad, only that they did a bad thing.

In real life neither approach works. If being sinful does not make you a sinful person, than sin no longer has any meaning. It becomes a null entity. A thing of no consequence.

I say forgive, but don't become so forgiving that it covertly promotes misbehavior.

Blogger tz February 27, 2019 8:27 AM  

They will probably split off something like the Southern Baptists broke off over slavery.

Many churches are only converged in the same blue pimple areas. The small churches out in flyover country are still faithful.

1 John 2 18-19

Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.  They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.


The enemy is the Devil, and the easiest way to get to the church is to seduce Eve, and have her lead Adam into disobedience toward God.

Blogger Kat February 27, 2019 8:37 AM  

Many thanks to our Methodist brethren. I'm Calvinist/Reformed at heart, but the PCA is taking on water fast and shows no signs of growing a spine. We might eventually have to jump ship and get our kids out of there.

Blogger Nate February 27, 2019 8:44 AM  

"I can only guess they were so badly converged that the diseased limbs have started to die off, healthy branches have grown strong enough to choke them out. "

you'd be incorrect. while the cancer did drive off many traditionalists... a lot of us stayed to fight... and over time.. the rest of the world came and stood beside us. And that has been the difference.

Blogger Nate February 27, 2019 8:45 AM  

"I'm Calvinist/Reformed at heart, but the PCA is taking on water fast and shows no signs of growing a spine."

the PCA is struggle I don't understand. the PCA was formed when the Presby church broke up over this same issue. Shouldn't this lesson have already been learned?

Blogger Damelon Brinn February 27, 2019 8:49 AM  

There was some hope a few years ago that the African Catholic bishops would push back against the Modernists. It was short-lived, and except for a couple dissenters, the last thing we heard of it was a smiling photo-op with a bunch of them clustered around Frank like a short NBA team with their coach. My cynical side says a lot of new schools and churches got built in Africa.

Good on the traditional Methodists for acting while there were still enough of them inside the organization to make a stand.

Blogger Latigo3 February 27, 2019 8:56 AM  

This is good. Let the chaff be separated from the wheat and let the swine run off a cliff.

Blogger Stilicho February 27, 2019 8:59 AM  

The sjw churchians need a skinsuit and lust after any assets they can take from the church, so they won't go without a further fight. Hopefully, the UMC will shake all of the sjw dust off their feet, but I doubt it with "social justice" still being part of their official mission. Many of the SJW'S will try the EU tactic of "vote until we get what we want then declare the matter settled for all time" if they are not thrown out of the church. This is a great victory for the UMC, but they have more struggles ahead of them. The media attacks when they start de-frocking gay clergy will be ridiculous, but it will make them stronger (and make them grow) if they stick to their guns. Good luck, Nate.

The NALC has this problem from when it split from the ELCA: they got rid of the homosexuals, but they still allow (a few) women pastors. In other words, the camel's nose (or more) is still under the tent. It shows up in democrat/anti-American politics disguised as "mission work" from time to time. Hopefully, the NALC's close relationship with the Missouri Synod will be a good influence.

Blogger Stilicho February 27, 2019 9:03 AM  

Roger HillFebruary 27, 2019 5:33 AM
I wonder if the converged U.S. delegates realized that the very inclusiveness they champion helped ruin their dreams? There is some irony here. These same advocates for inclusion might want to think twice about including the Africans at the next assembly.
***

Oft evil will shall evil mar

Blogger The Cooler February 27, 2019 9:04 AM  

@33 Soldier on, brother.

Blogger Axe February 27, 2019 9:17 AM  

Hi Vox,

I'm curious. Yesterday you showed your support for Milo on the Darkstream, but then today you take a very clear (and in my opinion, correct) stand against homosexuality in the Church here on the blog. How do you separate the two positions in your mind? The 'reprobate' in Scripture is a pretty far gone position. If God has rejected them, should we still accept them?

Is is because Milo is not a Christian ... so you can support him on an intellectual basis? Or do you approach this dichotomy from some other angle?

Thanks!

Blogger James Chinery February 27, 2019 9:19 AM  

This is indeed good news. A tip of the hat to the traditional Methodists.

"Ensuring the exit of many progressive pastors and churches in the largest mainstream Protestant body in the US." You will see far less progressives leaving than if the alternative was approved. They have nowhere to go - the UCC, ELCA, Unitarian Church, American Episcopal Church, the PCUSA have no place for additional pastors and the progressives members (the small percentage that regularly attend worship) will stay and whine.

I was speaking with a former colleague who worried about the full communion agreement between the Methodist church and the ELCA if the traditional option was approved. What a mess.

Blogger HoosierHillbilly February 27, 2019 9:24 AM  

@34 the Presbyterians and Dutch reformed churches fractured back in the day over the various points of the fundamentalist - modernist controversy. gay marriage not in that specific batch.

But now, we get to reap permitting the nonsense our forefathers split over. We have been lax and pay for it. The above fight is exactly on slate for the RCA in 2020. The peaceful breakup option is floated, but everyone knows the parasites won't leave.

RCA is lost, time to steel the CRCA which is hurtling to follow its cousins into folly.

Any tips from the successful Methodist fight we can use?

Blogger Curlytop February 27, 2019 9:25 AM  

You can lay this at the feet of Tim Keller and his Revoice movement. What many don't know is Keller is linked up w SBC heretics, Albert Mohler and Russell Moore w the "Social Gospel" aka SJW movement for Churchians.

Their hook into the PCA churches was via the Fostering/Adoption scam where they guilt the congregation into getting involved in the foster system. We have seen this close up from a local PCA church in our area. Like a cult, you gain acceptance by becoming a foster parent, regardless of personal circumstances. We see how much the biological children's needs become secondary. Witnessing this unfold has forever changed my view on fostering/adoption.

I can easily see how Revoice is slipping in the "gays are better Christians than you," mantra as the next step in acceptance, which was their stated objective in the 2018 Revoice Conference.

Pulpit and Pen .org has done an excellent job exposing this process and validated what our family has observed in our relatively rural community.

Blogger RandyB February 27, 2019 9:34 AM  

"Smugness in one's theological superiority hasn't slowed any denomination's descent into the convergence cesspit."

Worth quoting again. See also "Multiethnic Symposium."

Blogger Nate February 27, 2019 9:37 AM  

"Any tips from the successful Methodist fight we can use?"

yes. the standard traditionalist strategy is to cut and run. Don't cut and run. Stay and fight. Expose the minority for what it is. Don't let them pretend to be the majority. At every opportunity demonstrate how few of them there are.

They rely on the moderates wanting to keep the peace. They depend on people being to polite and gracious to disagree with them.

Take those weapons away from them. We had a study done that exposed them in America. Everyone thinks the UMC in America is very progressive and the progressives outnumber us.

The large professional study we had done showed only 20% of all UMC members in the US were progressive. But we found that that the delegates in the US were very much disproportionately progressive.

So don't let that happen. Get involved in your church and stay involved. Get involved in church politics and stay involved. don't slack off and let some rainbow warrior take a seat you could've filled but chose not to.

Blogger mgh February 27, 2019 9:41 AM  

In the southern US, the Methodists come in two flavors: Large churches that are full of ex-Baptists that are not converged in any way. Small dying churches, often inner city, that are partially converged. The task ahead is for the Africans and southerns to bring some enforcement upon those who openly defy the will of the majority.

Blogger VD February 27, 2019 9:53 AM  

Yesterday you showed your support for Milo on the Darkstream, but then today you take a very clear (and in my opinion, correct) stand against homosexuality in the Church here on the blog. How do you separate the two positions in your mind?

Sin is not the whole of a Man. Shall I also refuse friendship to all the overweight people who struggle with the sin of gluttony?

Milo is my friend. And I have never recommended him for a position in leadership of any church. There is no contradiction.

Blogger mgh February 27, 2019 9:57 AM  

Having the Africans save us all would totally be the kind of thing God would do.

Blogger Amos Bellomy February 27, 2019 9:59 AM  

Seriously, I am so impressed by these African Christians. If only the rest of the flock had their zeal.

Blogger Gastguma February 27, 2019 10:08 AM  

The thing is, you do not need a high I.Q. to understand Christianity or right and wrong. If you do wrong, God will judge and punish you. If you do right, God will bless and reward you. If you do wrong, but show remorse and stop doing wrong and start doing right, God will forgive you. Even animals learn obedience through "wrong = punishment and right = reward." It takes "intelligent" people to rationalize all this away.

1Co 1:27  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 
1Co 1:28  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 
1Co 1:29  That no flesh should glory in his presence. 

Won't those uppity, self-righteous whites look foolish on Judgment Day when God condemns their intellectual progressiveness and praises the Africans' simple-minded obedience?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash February 27, 2019 10:28 AM  

ut this is not the outcome many Americans, including most bishops, had been praying for.

In the States, a large portion of Methodists wanted to see the church accommodate LGBT ceremonies and clergy, as other mainline denominations have done in recent years. One poll through Mainstream UMC reported at least two-thirds of US delegates supported the inclusive “One Church Plan” instead.

Trying so hard to leave the impression that the Gay is popular within the Church. "Many Americans and most bishops", "a large portion", "one poll", "2/3 of delegates".

Blogger Arthur Isaac February 27, 2019 10:32 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Anonymous February 27, 2019 10:33 AM  

Religion isn’t supposed to acquiesce to your shortcomings, the whole point is that there will be sin and you must muster the will to overcome it. Without that, you have nothing. If you cannot overcome your sins you pray and you hope for the best. If we change the rules every time some one finds the rule burdensome then we might as well abandone the whole thing.

Blogger Tars Tarkusz February 27, 2019 10:36 AM  

The fact that they lost is the one thing which could happen which ensured their continued membership in the church.

Basically, there is zero chance they actually do what they are threatening and leave the church. It is not yet fully converged and will likely grow, or at least not shrink, their work not yet being done.

Not only will they not leave, but it is likely they will go in to open defiance and do these things anyway. When real Christians fall away from the church in disgust, the shrinking congregation will be held up as proof they need to be more progressive and tolerant in order to get butts in the pew.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch February 27, 2019 10:48 AM  

"There is no place in any Christian church for gay or female leadership of any kind; any so-called "church" that permits gay, female, or child leadership is Churchian, not Christian, at best. "

This has always been obvious to me. That men could fail to realize something so basic and elementary...it's just incredible. It's surprising, yet it's also not surprising.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella February 27, 2019 10:51 AM  

Part of why we stayed out of even trying some local churches when ours went SJW is that these churches promoted fostering/adopting. Young mothers at the library would be discussing doing this. They would have multiple young toddlers with them- their own children. They would acknowledge that they knew foster kids would harm their own children, but they still wanted to try. They would talk openly with each other about how the older African adoptees would prey on the younger, biological children. They had children!! Young children! Lovely young tow-headed, cherished, shy, thoughtful, kind young children that they were talking about bringing in to harms way to get respect from other grownups at their church. Not even a familial church -nearly complete, definitely unrelated strangers!- at their church.

We had lived in a poor neighborhood. A former pastor's wife lived down the street. When one of these women met her, and talked to her about fostering, she said "You have a child! Your responsibility is to this child!" and then told her horror stories about the children she had fostered for decades. Social workers lie about foster kids' backgrounds. They minimize crimes. They hide brain damage. They flat out lie about abuse.

It's horrifying that pastors were not hard-headed enough to protect their flock. Who else are they supposed to watch out for? They are looking the other way while the children born into their flock are getting harmed. There is not enough fame in the world to justify that.

Blogger Axe February 27, 2019 11:13 AM  

Thanks Vox!

"Sin is not the whole of a Man. Shall I also refuse friendship to all the overweight people who struggle with the sin of gluttony?"

My only argument would be that, there seems to me to be a difference between those who are struggling to overcome sin (or a sin) and those that embrace their sin and promote it. Still a good point of thought for me though. Thanks!

Is there a line that you would draw that you would not cross for accepting friendships?

Blogger HoosierHillbilly February 27, 2019 11:13 AM  

@45 Thanks mr.nate. Cutting and running is a painful charge...but a true one.

One other trap we do often fall in is thinking the fight is over or we are finally "safe". Led to plenty of convergence over the years. Oh how little endurance we have.

Got plenty more questions on strategy, but won't plug up the combox. Lots to think on. Mind if I holler in a few days?

Blogger Russ February 27, 2019 12:16 PM  

I have a Methodist friend who has said of his church, “Sometimes I feel like your family doesn’t matter if you’re not a lesbian couple.” And he’s a good progressive Democrat who has never, until recently, experienced a Mom of wrongthink in his life.

Blogger VD February 27, 2019 1:17 PM  

My only argument would be that, there seems to me to be a difference between those who are struggling to overcome sin (or a sin) and those that embrace their sin and promote it.

There are considerably more fat acceptance people than gay rights activists. Or than gays, period.

Blogger Christopher B February 27, 2019 1:18 PM  

I've been attending a UM church for a few years and was also somewhat surprised. I think the key difference between UM and ELCA (my prior denomination) is that UM has maintained greater lay governance. I credit, somewhat ironically, the UM practice of reassigning clergy on a regular basis. I think that leads to less of a feeling among congregants that the pastor has been hired to do our religious thinking for us. UM maintains a strong tradition of adult study.

Blogger Nate February 27, 2019 1:47 PM  

"
Got plenty more questions on strategy, but won't plug up the combox. Lots to think on. Mind if I holler in a few days?"

I doubt our esteemed host minds this discussion in the least brother. it is on topic and useful. Ask away. if you'd rather use a private channel... hell its always good to hear from ya.

Blogger Garuna February 27, 2019 1:54 PM  

Thank God for the Africans (who'd thought any of us would say that?).

Economic and military security allows Westerners to faggotize without immediately suffering the consequences. Perhaps Africans are least likely to cuck because they couldn't preach stupidity like "women can fight just as well as men" without immediately paying the price for it.

If the West never goes back to real Christianity, the revival will probably occur in a third world country.

Blogger Curlytop February 27, 2019 2:06 PM  

@Nate
Provide a link if ya'll take up the convo elsewhere. I think it's very beneficial.

Blogger tz February 27, 2019 2:49 PM  

They will steal defeat from the jaws of victory because not only are the majority here deep heritics, many others are still churchians or cucked

I placed a comment there (cc: Dissenter) which I expect to disappear, explaing what is going to happen.

They won on paper, but if they don't IMPOSE church discipline, it will be meaningless.

1. They will double down and do the point and screech and call everyone bigots.

2. The remaining US orthodox will be infiltrated, a diversity minister appointed, then converged, then advertise gay marriages "unlike that bigoted UMC across town".

The night riders came and set your church on fire. You consider it victory that you extinguished the fire before more than one corner was scorched.

You know if the vote went the other way, the remaining orthodox churches would have been purged.

You also know that the effiminate weaklings who are still orthodox will refuse to cast out the heretics and other enemies within, but try to reason with them, explain calmly that "this isn't what we teach", but take no decisive or meaningful action at any existing heretical church, while standing by and watching as the remaining orthodox churches are slowly and subtly converged

Blogger tz February 27, 2019 2:54 PM  

As to Milo, Church Militant did the first interview with him on one of their new shows and put the entire thing outside the paywall. Church Militant is the closest thing to a proper inquisition the Catholic church has.

The interview is interesting and they go into how Milo (and Voris) reconcile Milo's gayness with church teaching. It isn't with cuckery.

Blogger tz February 27, 2019 2:59 PM  

Milo In his own words - an interview a Jesuit rag mag refused to publish

Who says any Catholic should lack tension stoked by his weaknesses? We Catholics are better at clothes, food, and parties. Why shouldn’t we be better at guilt, too?

 

You don’t see me disputing the Church’s teachings on homosexuality. There’s no intellectual tension, because I wouldn’t dream of demanding that the Church throw away her hard truths just to lie to me in hopes I’ll feel better about myself. I love the truth, not lies, and I know no one’s feelings are the basis of truth. 

 

That’s why I don’t understand those Catholics — such as, if you’ll forgive my horrid impertinence, this magazine’s editor at large, Fr. Martin — who imply that if people don’t like what the Church says, maybe the Church is wrong or should apologize. The Church was founded on a rock and a cross, not on a hug.

 

Still, if you insist I talk about feelings, I’ve said before that I feel there’s something wrong with the fact that my lovemaking can’t produce the mini-Milo’s I’d like to have. How’s that for a subjective confirmation of the Church teaching that same-sex attraction is “objectively disordered” because it can’t lead to procreation?

 

Bottom line:  The Church says I’m not culpable for my temptations, but I shouldn’t sin. She’s right. And her founder said He came to heal those who knew they were sick, so I don’t despair


Milo is more orthodox on Catholic teaching than the USCCB.

Read the whole thing.

Blogger phunktor February 27, 2019 3:37 PM  

Milo would make a better pope than bergoglio. Of a high bar.

Blogger phunktor February 27, 2019 3:38 PM  

Not a high bar

Blogger Mr Darcy February 27, 2019 3:51 PM  

@ Stilicoh #37:

You need to take a closer look at the LCMS. Things are FAR from rosy.

Blogger phunktor February 27, 2019 3:51 PM  

Most particularly our Southrons. Spiritual rescue from the Hamites —not quite as pointed as Satan’s barbedroasting spit,, but it is a sharp reminder “made in.the image of God”,all y’all!

Blogger Mr Darcy February 27, 2019 3:54 PM  

@41 James Chinery

" ... was speaking with a former colleague who worried about the full communion agreement between the Methodist church and the ELCA if the traditional option was approved."

He needn't have bothered. The ELCA ceased to be "L" YEARS ago, and this intercommunion nonsense was only one manifestation of that fact.

Blogger Kat February 27, 2019 4:54 PM  

The issue I run into personally is the sheer wishy washy weaselly nature of things. I've contacted leadership about issues I thought were clearly problematic only to be told that they didn't see any problem because "technically" or "personally" this person isn't actually supporting some terrible thing.

What can you do with these people?

The sermons are vague. The prayers are vague. The answers they give you are vague. They'll still proclaim the bare facts of the Gospel, but all the transforming and growing and doing parts have no guts.

These are people who think "the culture war" is an embarrassing concept from back when homeschoolers where dorky kids in denim jumpers whose parents quoted James Dobson.

I want to stay and fight, but it's like wrestling jello.

Blogger SirHamster February 27, 2019 5:38 PM  

mgh wrote:Having the Africans save us all would totally be the kind of thing God would do.

Amos Bellomy wrote:Seriously, I am so impressed by these African Christians. If only the rest of the flock had their zeal.

Indeed.

"On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable ... But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other."


For those of us on the outside, how did the African vote make a difference?

Blogger John February 27, 2019 5:47 PM  

Congratulations to the UMs!

@37 Hopefully, the NALC's close relationship with the Missouri Synod will be a good influence.

Maybe in another generation. The LCMS has no tolerance for lady pastors.

@70 You need to take a closer look at the LCMS. Things are FAR from rosy.

Which micro-synod are you with? The lesson from the UM (and for that matter Seminex) is strength in numbers. It's time for all confessional Lutherans rejoin the LCMS and help us finish the fight. Harrison is still President. So many confessional Lutherans try to hold the synod to the standard of the Church. The synod is not the Church. The synod is just a bureaucracy.

Blogger HoosierHillbilly February 27, 2019 6:06 PM  

Alright then, brief set up of stage to help lay out the field. Three major branches of Dutch Reformed Church here in America. There is the Reformed Church in America (RCA) - they are the original trunk that is currently the furthest into left field. Christian Reformed Church (CRCA) split from them back in the 1930's over Fundamentalist - Modernist Controversy that split the Presbyterians to boot, they are widely seen as the "conservatives". The United Reformed Church (URCNA) split off from the CRCA primarily over the issue of women's ordination in the 1990's - they are viewed as the "radicals".

The RCA has the question coming to a head in Synod 2020 over the "conservative" classis fighting against the "liberal" classis on the issue of gay ordination and marriage. So far that even the President of Synod has encouraged the faithful to just "take a nap" while a small committee of 10 works out the vision for the future. (Major rhetorical opening there, but we will let that be for now).

We're a damned mess, and I am shamed to say it. But only around a half a million bodies in total, so we don't get the major media play the larger denominations do.

So, I'll shoot the offhand strategic questions first, save the tactics for later. Divided up so one can individually respond to points with proper reference. I ask forgiveness from the host and mods on violating the four post in a row rule.

Blogger HoosierHillbilly February 27, 2019 6:06 PM  

1) Where does the focus land on setting up the battlefield? I am inclined to believe that the CRCA is the one to target, as it gives the ability to offer the parasites: "well simply go the RCA, they love you over there". On one hand, this prevents one from painting their enemy into a corner, and is the...palatable...response to a lot of the moderates that they are not excommunicating the parasite, just moving them along. Problem is that this has been the situation through the 1930's onwards, and look where it got us. They just have a bastion to launch from again.

Blogger HoosierHillbilly February 27, 2019 6:07 PM  

2) As you mentioned upthread, the voting members at Synod skew highly parasitical, while your average pew sitter leans more towards the conservative end. How does one band together the lay folk effectively to put the pressure on their individual churches? Get the word out to destroy the notion you spoke of that we are completely overwhelmed and everyone totally believes the claptrap from on high? Always thought there was a major weakness in the ubiquitous church mailbox for individual members...but that drifts into the tactical and will be saved.

Blogger HoosierHillbilly February 27, 2019 6:07 PM  

3) Are bonds and ties to be broken, or how can they be turned to advantage? Currently there is an ecumenical spirit between RCA and CRCA. Plenty of shared missions, shared seminaries, shared committees. It looks like just an IV to feed the parasites their money, but can this be used to our advantage. Put the poison in the stream as it were...

Blogger Primus Pilus February 27, 2019 7:33 PM  

"You need to take a closer look at the LCMS. Things are FAR from rosy."

I investigated it after seeing it mentioned here, and checked out as soon as I saw the big ANTI-RACISM message linked off the main page of their site.

I'm not particularly interested in left wing churches that preach against the sins of Marxism rather than those of Christianity.

Blogger John February 27, 2019 9:24 PM  

@80 I'm not particularly interested in left wing churches that preach against the sins of Marxism rather than those of Christianity.

The LCMS is not now, never has been, nor ever will be a leftwing church and it does not now or ever will preach against the sins of Marxism.

The reason why the LCMS will never embrace Judeo-Christianity, social justice, or ordain women and/or homosexuals, or even embrace political activism, despite being run by conservative civic nationalist Baby Boomers who can't help but engage in the occasional virtue signaling, is because our Confessions carefully distinguish between God's mission for the Church and God's mission for the State: aka, the doctrine of two kingdoms, and because our members carefully distinguish between doctrine and personal opinion. So despite the fact that most Lutherans hold a compromised doctrine (and compromised opinions) of the State & nation (civic nationalism), they are quarantined from the doctrines of the Church.

As far as racism goes, the cuckservative nonsense occasionally promulgated by the synod's conventions is simply a reflection of conservative cultural values. They do not supersede Scripture or the Confessions, and unlike Scripture and the Confessions, they will die with the cuckservatives.

The LCMS is generations away from being in danger of becoming a "leftwing" institution, because the liberals already tried and failed to converge one of the seminaries, and literally got kicked out of the synod for their trouble. That was in the 70s. First you would have to re-infest and re-converge the seminaries, which itself would take at least two generations. Then you would have to converge a sufficiently large number of parishes. Then the LCMS would have to break its Confessional subscription. By that time Americans will have already embraced nationalism.

If you are looking for a church institution that preaches nationalism NOW (other than Israeli nationalism): good luck, because there aren't any. If you're looking for a parish that preaches nationalism, good luck, let me know what you find. However, if you are willing to "settle" for a church institution that faithfully preaches Christ and the Scriptures and preserves the Catholic Faith and will outlast the cucky personal opinions that most of its members and pastors doubtlessly hold, then the LCMS is one of a small handful that fit the bill.

Blogger Nate February 27, 2019 10:46 PM  

Ok brother… this is gonna take some ruminating... let me sip some whiskey and ponder this.

Blogger dtbb February 27, 2019 10:59 PM  

Methodists allow women clergy.

Blogger Primus Pilus February 27, 2019 11:23 PM  

"If you are looking for a church institution that preaches nationalism NOW (other than Israeli nationalism): good luck, because there aren't any."

I just want one that doesn't sign onto Marxist sins like "Racism".

If churches like that no longer exist in the West, then I don't need to worry about finding one.

I don't have any interest in a church with a page full of horseshit like this: https://www.lcms.org/social-issues/racism

If it changes in the future, I'll take another look at it in the future.

Blogger liberranter February 28, 2019 1:10 AM  

It's reprehensible that the vote was anywhere nearly that close.

Yup. That's why I'm less than exuberant about this. Hopefully that gap won't narrow any further in the next few years.

Blogger Joseph Maroney February 28, 2019 2:50 AM  

"But this is not the outcome many Americans, including most bishops, had been praying for."

Prayers to Satan, usually accompanied by ritual

Blogger The Cooler February 28, 2019 5:40 AM  

@84 I don't have any interest in a church with a page full of horseshit like this: https://www.lcms.org/social-issues/racism

Amazing, yes? There is the acknowledgment that God Himself separated the nations, then -- in the very same sentence -- the claim that Christ has rejoined them in this world. Christ has rebuilt Babel...

"and that my neighbor includes everyone I meet in my daily vocations, and specifically without regard to race"

To become angry with or laugh at this, that is the question. An utterly retarded, unmeetable redefinition of "neighbor" iced with an -ism.

Blogger Wiseagle February 28, 2019 6:42 AM  

Progs always fight till they win. But the new rule the UMC passed to allow leaving AND keeping their church property may cause many Prog congregations to go since they see the UMC growing it's way out of the otherwise death spiral via 3rd world (Bible believing) growth. The Trads shrewdly tapped into the Prog's materialistic impulse with the go-and-keep-your-building policy. Hopefully they'll go and perish with their mammon. This policy will shape the next UMC fights in The US.

Blogger Nate February 28, 2019 8:51 AM  

The gap is widening. It will grow by another 100 delegates in 2020 because the growth in Africa is enormous.

Blogger HoosierHillbilly February 28, 2019 9:11 AM  

@82 no problem cuz, take whatever time you need. Nice German lady has a defunct blog that only posts once a year at best...could be a good place for some open discussion and clarification.

If not, you know how to get a hold of me.

Blogger HoosierHillbilly February 28, 2019 9:16 AM  

Also, the strategy just ain't for the Reformed. Bunch of places have a similar tripartite split. But different than the UM...so different approach.

Blogger JG February 28, 2019 9:48 AM  

The "let the progressives pay to get out" is a good strategy, as who would want them in the Church anyway? Let the (((woke))) go commune with the Prince of this World and see how that works out for them.

Blogger Kevin Walker February 28, 2019 4:22 PM  

VD- those that don't leave of their own volition should be excommunicated without hesitation.
Executed without hesitation would be preferable. They will never stop their satan worship.

Blogger John February 28, 2019 5:56 PM  

@84 That's why you should listen to those of us who actually attend church. The institutional churches are not lost causes, as the UM has proven. But if you go by a website managed by civic nationalist cuckservatives you'll abandon the institutional church altogether. That is a mistake.

Go look at the UM's website, under "What We Believe". Top of the page: "Women in Leadership." Bottom of the page: "Racial Justice." The UM (along with every other major institutional church) is in a far, far worse position institutionally than the LCMS, but that does not mean they are a lost cause…that would only be the cause if all the Christians in the UM behaved like you.

If you are just looking for excuses to justify not attending church, congratulations, you're not a Christian. Otherwise, you have nothing to do lose by investigating one of the parishes on this list: http://www.lutheranliturgy.org/

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