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Wednesday, May 22, 2019

In defense of Christian nationalism

The anti-imperial omninationalist position is a very old one in Christian circles.

Let them ask, then, whether it is quite fitting for good men to rejoice in extended empire. For the iniquity of those with whom just wars are carried on favors the growth of a kingdom, which would certainly have been small if the peace and justice of neighbors had not by any wrong provoked the carrying on of war against them; and human affairs being thus more happy, all kingdoms would have been small, rejoicing in neighborly concord; and thus there would have been very many kingdoms of nations in the world, as there are very many houses of citizens in a city.

Therefore, to carry on war and extend a kingdom over wholly subdued nations seems to bad men to be felicity, to good men necessity. But because it would be worse that the injurious should rule over those who are more righteous, therefore even that is not unsuitably called felicity. But beyond doubt it is greater felicity to have a good neighbor at peace, than to conquer a bad one by making war. Your wishes are bad, when you desire that one whom you hate or fear should be in such a condition that you can conquer him.
- St. Augustine of Hippo

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28 Comments:

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim May 22, 2019 8:16 AM  

God’s intended design for civilization always provides detriment when it is violated. The evil “scratch their heads”as to why their walls are crumbling down:
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/iq-rates-are-dropping-many-developed-countries-doesn-t-bode-ncna1008576

Blogger Stilicho May 22, 2019 8:21 AM  

Someone tell the pope.

Blogger Jeff aka Orville May 22, 2019 8:36 AM  

Thank you Vox for bringing this nugget of gold to a new set of eyes. This blog is still transformative after thirteen years of reading here.

Blogger JG May 22, 2019 8:41 AM  

All evil is the result of desire for the unearned. I can't see how a desire for empire is any different.

Blogger Desdichado May 22, 2019 9:00 AM  

JG wrote:All evil is the result of desire for the unearned. I can't see how a desire for empire is any different.
When I was younger, I used to think that the 10th Commandment wasn't on the same level as the rest, as it seemed to be much less serious. I've come to see the commandment to not covet as actually the over-arching root cause of the breaking of most of the rest of the commandments and all other kinds of evils in the world.

Blogger IrishFarmer May 22, 2019 9:18 AM  

Okay, but what does the Bible say about it?

Blogger Duke Norfolk May 22, 2019 9:26 AM  

OT

More evidence of the evil of the Left:
From The Nation Magazine: Want to Dismantle Capitalism? Abolish the Family

Blogger VD May 22, 2019 9:41 AM  

Okay, but what does the Bible say about it?

The same thing.

“You are about to pass through the territory of your brothers, the people of Esau, who live in Seir; and they will be afraid of you. So be very careful. Do not contend with them, for I will not give you any of their land, no, not so much as for the sole of the foot to tread on, because I have given Mount Seir to Esau as a possession.
- Deuteronomy 2:3-5.

Blogger John Best. May 22, 2019 9:42 AM  

Excellent. The nations are a lot smaller than the state would have you believe.

Blogger PJW Gent May 22, 2019 9:52 AM  

IrishFarmer wrote:Okay, but what does the Bible say about it?
You have your answer by Desdichado one post earlier (which you may have missed) and his statement about the 10th commandment. All empire building has at its base the sin of covetousness.

Blogger August May 22, 2019 10:07 AM  

Erasmus's The Education of a Christian Prince ought to be required reading.

Blogger Angels1978 May 22, 2019 10:13 AM  

Amen

Blogger Northwest Watching Thing May 22, 2019 10:18 AM  

"as there are very many houses of citizens in a city"

I have often compared neighboring nations to other households in a neighborhood when discussing nationalism with others, but have never seen it prior.

Blogger Matthew May 22, 2019 10:46 AM  

Brilliant. Imperial ambition always felt anti-Christian. Now I'm glad to have a quote to use to help people understand that nationalism is the proper Christian position.

Blogger Igor the Obscure May 22, 2019 10:51 AM  

"what does the Bible say about it?"

James, chapter 4 applies:
1)What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you? 2)You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask.

The impulse to empire is covetousness and pride.

Blogger Raker_T May 22, 2019 10:51 AM  

@3 Indeed.
@5 NEAT! Related: for a long time I thought pride was the root of much sin; "I deserve this" (You can be as God) or "I'm better than those people, I deserve their stuff". Lately, I'm seeing the importance of "familiarity breeds contempt". Had Adam and Eve remembered who their creator was, if I remembered that daily I walk through His art gallery, things would be better.

Blogger David Ray Milton May 22, 2019 10:53 AM  

Advocating for nationalism is the same as advocating for democracy in the global order. If we have more nations and smaller nations then power is spread out more evenly and more people have a significant say in the world. Less corruption and oppression ensue because there is less centralized power. These would certainly seem to be noble Christian goals.

Blogger pyrrhus May 22, 2019 11:02 AM  

Empires are just looting schemes...when the loot runs out, they collapse...The British Empire was funded entirely by the looting of India, and when that well ran dry, and the wars continued, Britain was reduced to its present status...Now the former Empire is looting Britain.
Robbery can never be a Christian value, no matter what gloss is put on it....

Blogger Ominous Cowherd May 22, 2019 11:04 AM  

Desdichado wrote:When I was younger, I used to think that the 10th Commandment wasn't on the same level as the rest, as it seemed to be much less serious. I've come to see the commandment to not covet as actually the over-arching root cause of the breaking of most of the rest of the commandments and all other kinds of evils in the world.

The first and the last bookend the rest. Love God and love your neighbor. How? Don't covet.

Blogger GK Chesterton May 22, 2019 11:15 AM  

Per VD's quote on Essau, this is repeated in various forms throughout the OT. Mind, the alt-retard position can't be found either. You are not supposed to feel superior to your neighbors, take their land, or abuse them when in your territory, but there is a strong line drawn between neighbor and resident (citizen wasn't quite understood yet). And residents didn't magically appear, they always had a blood connection even if mixed as in the case of Ruth. See also the Gideonites status as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nethinim.

Blogger Vlad Z. May 22, 2019 11:40 AM  

atheism + no children = don't give a shit about the future

Blogger Up from the pond May 22, 2019 12:45 PM  

pyrrhus wrote:The British Empire was funded entirely by the looting of India

Wrong.

Blogger Ingemar May 22, 2019 2:04 PM  

This is the Principle of Subsidiarity.

Also it is rather telling that Yahweh, the Master of All Things only saw fit to give the miniscule Land of Canaan to His chosen people. It is as if He was telling them not to set their trust in worldly things alone.

Blogger Damn Crackers May 22, 2019 3:00 PM  

Many millennialists of the Middle Ages considered the Holy Roman Emperors Frederick the I and II (and others) as "The Last Emperors" who would conquer the globe for Christianity through the Crusades for the Second Coming of Christ.

It isn't really that much different from conquering the globe for neo-liberalism to usher in the end of history.

Blogger Noah B. May 22, 2019 3:41 PM  

OT but too good to pass up - a woman sees a pack of black boys throwing rocks at strangers, she tells them to stop, and they take turns attacking her while a male feminist gets it all on video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7QkjrHmF18

The comments were almost completely redpilled until (((Youtube))) took them all down.

Blogger Cluebat May 22, 2019 4:30 PM  

Related:
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2019/05/two_scandinavian_journalists_expose_the_wests_demise_from_weak_christianity.html

Blogger Mast Abeam May 22, 2019 7:32 PM  

What, some 17 centuries later. As real and as relevant as yesterday, and tomorrow. Thanks Vox.

Blogger Nate73 May 23, 2019 2:44 AM  

I was reading John Norwich's book on the Norman Conquest in Italy, and based off remarks Richard Spencer made I think he'd be fully on board with the travel-to-a-foreign-land-and-establish-rule-by-force approach they had.

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