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Monday, June 17, 2019

The purpose of a man

Last night's Darkstream about the purpose of a man has stirred up considerable commentary on YouTube as well as in my inbox. What is perhaps most interesting is the rival responses from two omegas - or if you prefer, Men Going Their Own Way - concerning my statements about the importance of establishing a marriage and a family.

DJ writes:
Omega Failure checking in here. Watched many men destroyed. Got too smart for that game. Seemed like the only way to win was not to play. Almost 50. Living alone. Waiting to die basically. Didn't even get fancy pants. Vox is right. 100 percent. Carry on.
C3 writes:
I have children.  I have an ex-wife.  I love and miss my children very much and I would never want any man to go through the pain I did.  It wasn't pain with accomplishment like what you get with fighting in the ring or surviving combat, its an empty shell like surviving a crippling car accident injury or prison rape.  There's no glory in it.  Those who've never been divorced constantly minimize just what it is you go through and its rather like listening to someone who plays a lot of video games telling you that combat, isn't that bad because his game has good graphics and sound so he understands.  No.  Our host has said things in the past like "Well if you're afraid of losing 20% of your stuff you're just a coward..." etc. etc.  Such a statement is obviously rhetorical and I take it as such.  He wants married families and rhetoric is a way to do this.  Okay.  However loss of property and income is secondary to the loss of children which dwarfs any loss of income now or in the future.

The list of navy seals, army rangers, US marines and special forces personnel who have seen and survived actual real combat and would think nothing of running at an enemy tank or fortified position regularly swallow the business end of a shotgun upon being divorced. That's my list of friends and yes I know their stories.  The numbers on this are high yet we're being told all these brave men are "cowards" because they're down on marriage?  Even if you think men should line up to commit suicide to create the next batch of single mothers at least be honest with what you're asking and encourage them to prepare to leave the country.  The financial incentives for women to divorce are very high and the culture rewards them for doing it.  Unless you are signing up for violent revolution John Wick style this won't change.  Getting married and having children in America grants a man fewer rights than had a slave in the antebellum South.  It was technically illegal to starve your slave back then but modern family law can do this with 65% with-holding plus seizing anything left done by direct deposit as soon as it hits a bank (direct deposit is now required for most employment and all government funds).

The list of people who can relate real world experience in this isn't some list of omega cowards either... Fred Reed (a writer Vox used to respect and linked too often), Terrence Popp (former Ranger), Big John (former Marine) from MGTOW is freedom, these men are not stupid, they're not cowards, and they all fought with serious depression, suicidal thoughts, crippling poverty and homelessness upon divorce.  They've seen actual real combat - not the kind you see on video games and yet they'd all tell you losing their children was much MUCH worse.  Now they're warning you about this and they're all just scaredy cats who aren't men and they're the exception?  Right. Divorce isn't a dragon one fights and emerges with a sense of victory and accomplishment, its like surviving a nuclear blast.  Yes you did it but really where is the glory and pride?  While I agree that having a children changes a man for the good it is being a father that gives you the reward and that is what is taken away.  You are not getting anything but children who don't know you, are taught to hate you, and your only hope is that they'll change their mind someday.  Rather like supplying fresh troops for the enemy and this is the goal of the devil of course.  At least if you're going to recommend this have men move to a place that is not currently headed to the lowest rift of hell on a fast train.
C3's perspective based on his personal experience is understandable, but it is also narcissistic and twisted. His advice is downright evil; it is his counsel of defeat and despair that is the goal of the devil; Satan does not want men of God to be fruitful and multiply, he wants them to be rendered sterile by fear. The inherent falseness in C3's advice, such as it is, is underlined by the fact that even C3 does not come right out and say that he wishes he'd never had those children whose absence is such torture to him.

And yes, all those brave men are absolutely cowards in this context. There are different forms of bravery and there are different forms of cowardice. Has C3 never seen the decorated soldier who can't stand up to the sharp tongue of a woman half his size? The ability to face a quick and painless death without flinching is very, very different than the ability to face years of emotional pain.

As for the rhetorical appeal to military suicides, the fact is that the vast majority of veterans who kill themselves are not even married, let alone divorced. Furthermore, most male suicides are committed well before the average age of first marriage, let alone fatherhood, so the entire appeal is not merely manipulative emotionally, but dishonest.

C3 added a second comment:
Serious question - without resorting to shame or ridicule or intangibles what are the positive incentives for getting married and having children in America today for a man?  Yes I know you'll call any man who doesn't do it double plus bad things which is right up there with 'rayciss' and 'sexist' etc.  But what are the actual positive incentives for a man?  You get to work a lot harder for others benefit, you get to be completely responsible for others under penalty of prison without having any authority to do anything, and you get to be ridiculed non-stop as a blundering idiot by Hollywood 24x7.  She gets the house, the children, the white dress, the stay at home and you get the alimony, the child support (for kids that may or may not be yours), domestic violence charges, prison, homelessness, and cuckoldry.

So yes I realize western civilization and buck up chump and you need to do this for queen and country and GOD etc but in reality people pursue what is good for them directly and not others.  If you don't believe me look at why socialism fails everywhere - people pursue what they perceive to be in their own best interest, selfishly, and right now there are literally NO positive reasons for a man to get married that I can see.  So no intangible "oh you'll really FEEEEEEELLL it later because children will magically transform your soul through the dark mirror with the wizard totem and power ups and..." no really in succinct terms ...  WHAT ARE THE POSITIVE REASONS FOR A MAN AND FROM HIS (NOT HER AND NOT SOCIETIES) PERSPECTIVE TO GET MARRIED AND HAVE CHILDREN TODAY?  Good luck...
Joy. Happiness. Love. Self-satisfaction. A sense of purpose. Meaning. Respect and self-respect. The fact that C3 considers being "ridiculed non-stop as a blundering idiot by Hollywood" to be a serious factor in his analysis demonstrates how completely warped his perspective is. Why on Earth would he, or anyone, give a damn how a few dozen devil-worshipping pedophiles happen to regard one's priorities in life?

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173 Comments:

Blogger Ranger June 17, 2019 7:38 AM  

Vox, you are right. Men should be Fathers if they want their civilization to flourish. But what about infertile men? What do you think they should do about it? What is their purpose?

Blogger VD June 17, 2019 7:45 AM  

But what about infertile men? What do you think they should do about it? What is their purpose?

Who cares? They're statistically irrelevant to the discussion. You might as reasonably ask about transgendered quadriplegics. That is a tangential issue.

If your first response to a subject is "but what about [irrelevant exception]" you are not adding to the discourse, you are distracting from it.

Blogger Matt June 17, 2019 7:46 AM  

The answer is kind of obvious.

Blogger Meanoldbasterd June 17, 2019 7:53 AM  

I WAS C3 at one point, and probably will die childless. I went through the whole "face a quick death without flinching" only to either under the "constant barrage of emotional pain" that vox,mentions, however, even though divorce was terrible, and I regret doing it (I regret marrying an evil woman even MORE) I realized that it was all worth it last week.
My best friend and his wife were having a domestic spat that I happened to be present for which got pretty heated and went on for about an hour in front of my 2 year old Godson. The boy, Mo, came up to me and hugged my leg while his parents were shouting and tried to ask what was happening by shrugging animatedly and making babbling interrogative noises. I told him it would be ok and hugged him.
Towards the end the father shouted "ok that's it! 5 minutes of silence!" Which allowed everyone to take a deep breath and calm down. After 10 minutes of much more subdued discussion, he declared the argument over and said "ok, now everyone give each other hugs"
Mo, who was in his high chair waiting on lunch immediately shot his hands upwards into the air and his face exploded in the most joyous squeal I have heard in a long time.
So I simply said, "it looks like Mo has the last word."
That's how a catchphrase we use to defuse arguments that get out of hand.
Out of the mouths of babes indeed.
I'm just the Godfather and I can see how children shrink all other selfish concerns to insignificance.

Blogger Nation-Deprived June 17, 2019 7:56 AM  

A fascinating juxtaposition. The first man only took a few words to acknowledge his failures, while the other built a Great Wall of text to deny his.

Blogger White Templar June 17, 2019 7:58 AM  

Married 12 years, with 3 kids, one more coming. My parents divorced when I was 16, however they are amicable now. So I've seen both sides.

I can understand C3's fear, and I can empathize with his position. However Vox's path is the only way to save Western Civilization.

For me - the dividing line for which path to take was based on this question: have you found a quality woman? (And you have to look, damnit. Don't just throw your hands up and ragequit when you can't find a 8 or 9 eighteen year old trad virgin. Go to church and be a man of God.)

If you are going to try to wife a ho, you will end up divorced. This is a lifelong decision, make it carefully, not with your dick.

In my opinion - the quality of woman you marry is the difference between contributing to the salvation of Western Civ and being a divorce statistic.

If you truly cannot find a decent woman, then find fatherless children and provide them the male role model they need.

Blogger Leoric June 17, 2019 8:02 AM  

Happily married with kids and more on the way. I can't imagine life without them now. I don't foresee this ever happening to me but if I had to game this for my kids I would suffer any kind of life you throw at me even one described by the Omega. Furthermore I am absolutely looking forward to helping my boys build a life like mine. Not pessimistic at all.

Blogger Silent Draco June 17, 2019 8:05 AM  

The MGTOW need to show us the data regarding that successful tribe of Amazons that routinely hunted down mastodons and drove off dire wolves. Oh yes, limited ability for long-term planning and collaboration.

Vox hits the point almost squarely. Physical encounter, bravery and courage are one side of the coin. Mental encounter, toughness and courage are the other side. Successfully dealing with women means using that other side. It takes mental toughness and agility to handle a woman. Turn conventional wisdom on its head: men must civilize women, to let the culture thrive. Personal experience in dealing with young women over the past two decades makes this obvious: Harpies, from the amount of spoiling and damage done. A lot of done with Daddy issues in mind, because he said "no" or spanked them when it was necessary. They didn't get the lesson, because Mommy probably sidestepped him (her own Daddy issues).

It takes a calm mind and a steady hand to deal with someone soaked in highly variable emotions. Above all, keep praying for assistance and wisdom.

Blogger Ranger June 17, 2019 8:06 AM  

Infertile men care (I am one of them). Ever since finding out, the purpose of life has been hard to find, especially considering only the temporal dimension.

Blogger Scuzzaman June 17, 2019 8:14 AM  

The rewards for marrying a faithless slut are very small - so don’t marry at all.

There’s something missing in this “logic”. There’s more than a hint of “It’s not my fault!” in here, but I doubt anyone put a gun to these guys heads and forced them to marry random people. They made bad choices and now they want to retreat from all choices. Almost the definition of cowardice.

Blogger Careless Whisper June 17, 2019 8:15 AM  

For men in this terrible scenario, I can offer my own experience as an adult child of just such a brutal divorce. My mother told me all kinds of horrible things about my father, which I believed for many years, and I didn't speak to my father for a very long time. As is usually the case, the story is a complicated one, Dad isn't anyone's idea of a saint. But eventually, if you have faith in God and you really believe in the Bible, you get really bothered by the deep dark knowledge that you are breaking the commandment to honor your father and mother. And maybe if you go to one of those chicken soup for the soul type churches they'll tell you what you want to hear: how what you're doing is justified, God understands, etc etc etc.
But your conscience doesn't let it go at that. So if you pray to God fervently to have mercy on you and give you peace of mind, I expect you will find yourself faced with no choice but to call the man and mend ties. So it was for me.
Through many years of atheism I was able to ignore this impulse with poor-Mom stories and pop culture Evil Dad conventional wisdom. But upon swallowing my pride and devoting myself to Jesus Christ, this turned into one of those things I couldn't ignore any longer. Many times I confessed my failure to honor my father in the confessional, only to be told it's okay. But I knew that it wasn't. And the older I got the more I started to see things in Mom that I didn't like, and couldn't square with the suffering saint story, and it didn't sit right. So it was that God led me back to my old man.

I don't know what else to tell someone; not everyone's kids return to church. But Christ is a life line to virtue in all things, seriously, ALL things, and this is no exception. I'll keep you all and your families in my prayers. If you can, give or family a prayer or two, because we sure can use them ourselves.

Blogger buzzardist June 17, 2019 8:16 AM  

God's first command to humans was "Be fruitful and multiply." But in a corrupted world, a corrupt society and corrupt people sometimes make it painful for those who try to follow God's commands. Therefore, according to C3, it's O.K. to ignore God's commands.

Yeah, between God and C3, I'm going to have to go with God on this one.

Blogger Achilles June 17, 2019 8:17 AM  

The problem here is that we have people defending their answer when there is no answer. The Jews have designed it this way. Woman are vapid whores forged by social media not their fathers. And we have no legal means of keeping them in line. Vox is right, MGTOW is not the answer. But waiting for a good woman to marry and breed sure looks a lot like MGTOW. And what good is popping out kids with the wrong woman? They'll leave you, take all your stuff, and your kids will end up worse than the mom. How does a sea of fatherless wiggers help the nation? The only solution is to get rid of the Jews who caused this situation. Then we can take back out women.


@1 Cure cancer, run for office, or pull a Tarrant.

Blogger VD June 17, 2019 8:18 AM  

Infertile men care (I am one of them).

Quelle surprise. Are you so new here that you don't know all WHAT ABOUT MEISM is not merely frowned upon, but openly derided?

YOU are not the fucking topic. So get over yourself for the nonce.

Blogger Roman Daoist June 17, 2019 8:20 AM  

Funny thing about suicide, I once realised, is that I can always come back to it later.

People who kill themselves just lack imagination - and take themselves way too seriously.

May as well get some things DONE first.

Blogger Leoric June 17, 2019 8:23 AM  

I call bs on that one. Good men I know found women deserving of them. Bad man found bad women. And relatively fast too. It's an anecdote but it runs opposite of what you are saying.

Blogger Gallant June 17, 2019 8:28 AM  

I've been through a fair bit of this stuff. C3's point represents some of the worst case (full child alienation, without the financial strength to live well through it). I'll point out too though, I've seen the extreme existential angst that generally comes to the childless - while financially intact, you really don't want to be like those, where even the typical case is a ghastly mess (I see less of DJ's "waiting to die", more of "confused drama queen running around like a chicken with head cut off").

I think it's positive for people to honestly discuss these issues in the open. I would not want to ridicule the C3 type of perspective too much for this type of input. I'd point out to C3 that the bad end of the had-children case is nowhere near as bad as the bad end of childless.

The system as it is now is appalling, C3 is right on that. However, the future will belong to the children of those who consciously endure it, or are 'dumb' enough to blunder through it.

Yes, it is not like combat (though I have never seen combat) - where you get past something and get medals and applause and backslapping for the rest of your life. I appreciate the analogue though, I have often mused I'd like to be thrown into a gladiator pit and either die or win my life back. But that is not to be.

The enemies of western civilization have made it, individually, 'irrational' to have children. But having children is the only way to defeat, nay, even survive them or stay in the game. To the C3 types or those who will become C3, I say you are luckier than you think.

Life is above all else, we must live on. That means children, no matter the other considerations. There is no other way.

Blogger Quilp June 17, 2019 8:29 AM  

"WHAT ARE THE POSITIVE REASONS FOR A MAN AND FROM HIS (NOT HER AND NOT SOCIETIES) PERSPECTIVE TO GET MARRIED AND HAVE CHILDREN TODAY? Good luck..."

My old age will be spent with progeny, not on a boga board at the local pool looking for company. Good luck.

Blogger JC Skinner June 17, 2019 8:30 AM  

@Infertile guy: Marry a godfearing widow. Find an infertile wife and adopt. Assist your extended family. There are many other ways to parent. Or, as has been said, find another way in which to be a role model to youth.
But if you're really infertile, you already know and have thought about all of this. In which case, this isn't just 'what-about-meeee?' It's also a deliberate derail.

Blogger VD June 17, 2019 8:32 AM  

I see less of DJ's "waiting to die", more of "confused drama queen running around like a chicken with head cut off.

(nods)

Blogger Silent Draco June 17, 2019 8:34 AM  

Sorry, should have done the TL;DR version, and offer a summary:

The Devil tempted Eve, not Adam, in the Garden of Eden. Female Daddy issues, with rare exceptions, go all the way back. Your role is to steer her from temptation and into righteous life. Neglect your role and you will suffer the consequences.

I now heartily accept the SDL's wisdom concerning espresso.

Blogger JG June 17, 2019 8:36 AM  

There's a really simple way to sort good women from bad. Tell them, on the first date, that you are interviewing her to be the mother of your children. You'll know almost instantly if you have a keeper or not. If you get a positive response, then its simply a matter of determining if your values align with hers. If they don't, move on.

Blogger Sargent.matrim June 17, 2019 8:37 AM  

"Why on Earth would he, or anyone, give a damn how a few dozen devil-worshipping pedophiles happen to regard one's priorities in life?"

Exactly correct! Who cares what the world thinks, who cares what twisted celebrities and talking heads say. There is more value in being a dad than most people realize. All good things come with risk, nothing in life is certain.

One of my favourite things about you Vox is that you refuse to give up. That's exactly how we should live life.

Blogger Unknown June 17, 2019 8:42 AM  

Adopt and be a father

Blogger Mr.MantraMan June 17, 2019 8:42 AM  

The Omega part and conflict avoidance are the unique take aways from that DS, not to take away from the rest but the other points have been said many times before.

Blogger The Observer June 17, 2019 8:45 AM  

The only solution is to get rid of the Jews who caused this situation.

Jews didn't cause Ancient Rome to lose control of its women. They didn't cause ancient Sparta to lose control of its women. They didn't cause 14th century Baghdad to lose control of its women. The Admonitions of Ipewer and Kali Yuga Describe the problem quite well, all without Jews being anywhere in the picture.

Jews may have exacerbated the situation in the modern day and age, but the problems that are being faced now go all the way back to the beginning of time and are ultimately the fault of weak and evil men of your own stock.

Blogger Nation-Deprived June 17, 2019 8:46 AM  

Spread the Gospel in what ways you can. Adopt children if you are up for it (I personally couldn’t do it) or just be strong masculine influence in their lives.

Blogger KPKinSunnyPhiladelphia June 17, 2019 8:48 AM  

C3s disquisition is classic -- here are the horrible facts (granted). But the real question is this: what are YOU going to do about it? And what's he doing about it?

He's stewing in his own juices.

The hardest thing for men to understand today, especially in this era of untrammeled feminism, is the reality of women. When you do, you are more likely to pick the right woman for you, and then you can navigate the rocks and shoals of a relationship.

Is success guaranteed? Absolutely not.

But as a man, you have to make your individual mission paramount. You never subordinate your personal arc to a woman's inevitable shitstorms. That is a recipe for being crushed. And C3 is crushed.

In fact, that focus on your own trajectory is itself more likely to bind that woman to you. It's these counter-intuitive insights that few men learn today.

Blogger Johnny June 17, 2019 8:50 AM  

To address the narrow subject of ex-military guys bumping themselves off, I am reminded of the post-traumatic stress disorder diagnosis. Note that the diagnosis by its very nature assigns emotional problems to past events, as though current events have nothing to do with anything. I suspect that this is a scholarly rebuttal to the "support the troops" argument. What PTSD does is it relieves conventional society of any burden related to how well the returning troops adjust to civilian life. Instead of accepting some burden to seeing to it that the troops properly readjust, you declare them nuts. PTSD is the -- you are crazy and it’s not our fault -- diagnosis. No wonder some of the ex-troopers react poorly.

As for proof of PTSD, one needs to remember that us humans are so tied to our culture that even in insanity we will go nuts in the culturally appropriate way. Let it be known that flashbacks are a symptom of mental illness by portraying it in movies, and guess what, people who are under stress will get flashbacks. And so on with other symptoms. We are obedient to our culture even when we rebel from it.

Certain elements in our society don’t like celebrating the military guys as heroes. Personal vanity the apparent reason. This is reasonably common among the scholarly types and money people, and it turns up in the entertainment industry quite a bit. Unless the movie is about war or the warrior as the obvious lead, they don't like these military people. The fact is, mobsters often get better treatment than soldiers.

And as an aside, they don’t like athletes one whole hell of a lot ether. Again, unless the production is about an athlete, they are not going to celebrate the athlete or athletics. Relevant here because it is the same motive. For reasons of vanity they don’t like the attention the athlete gets.

Blogger pyrrhus June 17, 2019 8:51 AM  

Through all the ups and downs of life and marriage, my children have been a joy to me, and still are....I can't imagine life without them..

Blogger Desdichado June 17, 2019 8:51 AM  

C3 takes it as a given that a married man will get divorced and screwed over. You can also... be more careful in your selection, and make it work. It still works for most people in America, actually. I've rarely seen such obvious despair. He's been beaten down by the devil, and he doesn't believe that anyone else can possibly have something that he didn't manage to have.

But it does work. I can't imagine being a nearly 50 year old MGTOW bachelor.

Blogger Cataline Sergius June 17, 2019 8:54 AM  

Eighty percent of divorces are initiated by women.

If you want to avoid divorce then there are few things you need to do.

Make sure your wife-to-be is a Christian from a family of Christians that still look down on divorce.

If her family is going to turn their backs on her if she files, that is a major impediment.

Tell her outright BEFORE you get married that if she divorces you, you take the hardest route possible. You will completely abandon your children and fly beyond the reach of the US court system. Commit yourself to it, so she will believe you.

Divorce became popular in this country when the negative consequences of it, vanished for women.

So make sure that there will be negative consequences her case that she can't tolerate.


White men that marry college educated African-American and have children with them have the lowest divorce rate in the country.

Why? Because that woman knows that the odds of finding another White man to be the stepfather of her children is almost impossible.

Negative consequences.

Blogger Cataline Sergius June 17, 2019 8:59 AM  

Other bits of obvious advice.

Ask your family and friends if marrying this girl is good idea.

I pleaded with my best friend not to marry his first wife because it would end in disaster. He asked for my advice when it came to his second wife.

You are not at your most cold and rational when you are dizzy in love.

Let the fires cool a bit before putting a ring on her finger.

The Fluffy Bunny stage of a relationship lasts about seven months to a year.

The first time you both get dressed to go bed real life begins.

Blogger Damelon Brinn June 17, 2019 8:59 AM  

I'd point out to C3 that the bad end of the had-children case is nowhere near as bad as the bad end of childless.

Yes. I'm childless so far due to my own bad choices in women, and I can guarantee you I'd rather have children, even if it meant being angry about how my ex-wife was raising them. Pain caused by love is better than emptiness.

Also, as you say, his description is the worst-case scenario and doesn't describe most of the divorce situations that make up the scary statistics. Most divorced men I know do see their children regularly and are involved in raising them. It's certainly not an ideal situation, but the "kids taken away forever and taught to hate you" scenario is not typical. Making the biggest choice in your life based on something that rarely happens because you've convinced yourself it has 50/50 odds isn't very smart.

The older I get, the more I realize children--your children, your family's children, your community's children, your nation's children--are what matter most. Trying to replace that purpose with a hobby or career is a poor substitute. Maybe some men will never feel that lack; I can't speak for them. But I think most will, because it's how God made us. It'll hit you eventually, just as it hits the 39-year-old single woman who always thought she'd have time to settle down.

Blogger Johnny June 17, 2019 9:01 AM  

>>Divorce became popular in this country when the negative consequences of it, vanished for women.

That is the size of it. People respond to incentives. If the man earns most of the money in the family, then divorce gives the women the option of getting the child support without having to accommodate the man. Until the incentives change the behavior isn't going to change. What I find ironic (or laughable) is this talk about sustainable this or that, when our society itself isn't sustainable.

Blogger Johnny June 17, 2019 9:12 AM  

I am an old guy and I have a neighbor who is a young guy. He is a well funded engineer of some sort and he owns an eleven acre estate. The tending of that land preoccupies him. He is turning the place into a kind of combination park and nature preserve.

His relationships with women are stable but transitory. And what is obvious to me is that the estate is his substitute for a family. What comes to mind for me is that raising children is a major burden. Society put considerable expense into producing him, and in the long run, the return society gets is nothing. He is self terminating himself.

Blogger EK June 17, 2019 9:18 AM  

At the risk of venturing into "what about me" territory, as a 24 year old it seems that my past long term relationships were all obsessed with social media and their iPhones. I've heard advice from some Christian family men not to get married until after 30 and not to start looking until your late 20s. I know this has to do with sexual market value being higher for older men. Any of y'all got tips about how to separate the wheat from the chaff and find a stable woman? Seems most girls my age are going for older guys, and the younger college age girls just want to hook up. But I understand your point VD, the prerogative to have children outweighs the risks of marrying the "wrong person".

Blogger James Dixon June 17, 2019 9:22 AM  

> C3 takes it as a given that a married man will get divorced and screwed over.

The odds aren't anywhere near as bad as people claim. Even if the divorce rate is 50% (the often quoted figure) that means that half of all marriages don't end in divorce. And when you consider that many people who get divorce are divorced multiple times...

The two leading causes of divorce are infidelity and money problems (see https://www.marriage.com/advice/divorce/10-most-common-reasons-for-divorce/). The rate also varies by ethnicity and education, the research of which is left as an exercise for the reader but can easily be guessed.

Money problems may not be entirely under your control, but infidelity certainly is, and going in to the marriage with a realistic understanding of your monetary situation and goals will go a long way to eliminating the money arguments.

But the most important detail is simple. The marriage has to be the most important thing in your lives. There's an old Jack Benny quote I've posted here before but bears repeating in this context: "My wife Mary and I have been married for forty-seven years and not once have we had an argument serious enough to consider divorce; murder, yes, but divorce, never."

My wife and I are heading towards year 31 and our attitude mirrors theirs. Unfortunately, we never managed to have children.

Blogger Clay June 17, 2019 9:23 AM  

I am the father of one child. It's funny the things you might remember on Father's Day. My first memory was this:

We had induced labor. My wife and I went the the hospital at 0700 on a Thursday. They gave her, whatever they give, pretty quickly. She was well due. We waited all day. She was in pain, but did not want to take any pain medication. So, the doctor comes in about dark-time, and sits down with us. He tries to talk my wife into an epidural, but she refused. Finally, she got tired of being in pain, so, she gave the go-ahead. Watching him give her that shot in the spine was the most horrific part to me, of the whole experience.

But then, my wife seemed to relax, noticeably. So...we all started to watch an episode of Simon & Simon, our doctor's favorite program. I'd just take a peek under the sheet every now and then, as the doctor asked me to. A few peeks later, I told the doctor, "I see some hair...and it's surely not my wife's!" He got up, took a look, reached in, hooked his fingers under my daughter's armpits, and slid her right out. She never made a sound. Just gazing around in wonderment, I suppose. I guess I was running my mouth off, asking questions.

Well to make this story end, this is what I remember most:

Through all the jabbering I was doing, the doctor and nurses never said a damn word. I couldn't understand why they wouldn't answer me.
I asked the doctor about it later, he told me it was their policy that the only voices a baby first hears, is from it's mother and father. That's the first thing that comes into my mind.

Blogger RedJack June 17, 2019 9:24 AM  

I saw many of my peers get destroyed in bad marriages.

Many of them went their own way.

I still chose to marry my bride. Love my kids. Love my wife.

It is a risk. All life is. But I am glad I took it.
We are called to struggle, not give up

Blogger Beardy Bear June 17, 2019 9:28 AM  

@Silent Draco - When women court, they test a man's mental strength with challenges, not his physical strength. They test his mental bravery, not his physical bravery. Women understand subconsciously at least, that leadership requires mental strength and bravery. In some cases in leading her, it will challenge and tax it.

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." 2Timothy

Blogger RedJack June 17, 2019 9:37 AM  

As I burn through my 40's, I look at some of my friends who did not marry. They had a lot of cash to burn on cars, hunting trips, hobbies, and boy's weekends to Vegas. I envied them in my 30's, as I had a house payment and family.
Now? I have a bunch of little RedBears running around, a home, and a wife who loves me at my worst and supports me for my best. They have a nice care and an empty house to come home to.

I also know some who have been burned badly before. My soon to be ex boss is one. He got burned in marriage, and will not marry again. He only lives for work, and is pushing all others to follow him.

I didn't marry for the wrapping, but the package. My wife is lovely, but not a 10. Neither am I. I did interview her on our dates (she tells many of her younger co workers to find a guy that does that!). When we went to our pre marriage consoling, the priest just laughed and said we would be fine.

Some of my ex girlfriends? Bad choices. I was lucky to listen to my buddies who said "Crazy! Run away!"

C3's anger appears to be directed mostly to himself. Work out. Find a peer group. Get out and talk to people. Stop navel gazing and get living.

Blogger Alphaeus June 17, 2019 9:38 AM  

"Satan does not want men of God to be fruitful and multiply, he wants them to be rendered sterile by fear."

I think the devil has managed to render many men functionally sterile by re-shaping society in such a way that makes it rational to be sterile, and objectively foolish to try to be married and have children.

So that's why trying to shame those men who make an objective assessment of the situation and choose not to invest in such a risky venture by calling us cowards, etc, is going to work less and less and less as the world gets more and more and more the way Satan wants it to be.

I'm not afraid of a woman trying to push me around and insult me and belittle me and grind me in to the emotional dirt. I'm afraid of the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Marine Corps, the US Marshall Service, the US Secret Service, the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, the Department of Commerce, the Department of Labor, the Department of Agriculture, the state police, the local police, the highway patrol, and the local dog catcher all coming at me to destroy the family that I worked hard for and invested everything I had or ever will have to build. I'm not afraid of the emotional pain of losing my family as much as I don't believe in wasting my time just to make my self in to a chump when I was able to see it coming from a zillion light years away before it happened.
And ever before my family is destroyed, in the post modern world my children do not really belong to me, they belong to the State, and to Hillary's Village.
If you want to plunder Satan's house and liberate those that you say are being controlled by induced fear, you can't just jawbone his victims with insults. It doesn't work and it makes you look kind of shallow and silly and stupid for not seeing the truth about it. First you must bind Satan down and change the world in to one where men can function as men again with a reasonable hope of success, then it might work to goad men in to performing their natural functions again.
I believe that MGTOW is a rational choice similar to when I choose not to invest in a Ponzi scheme. Sure, if I get in early I might come out like a bandit, but more likely I will just lose everything I put in to it and feel like a stupid chump mostly because I knew it was a Ponzi scheme in the first place.
God wants people to invest, but God does not want us to throw our capital down a rat hole investing in what seem to be to them losing propositions.

Blogger Станислав Бартошевич June 17, 2019 9:41 AM  

I said it before on the same topic and I will say it again: no amount of rhetorics, even if they happen to invoke noble sentiments will ever beat material and legal (dis)incentives in the long run, as all socialist regimes have learned to their detriment. If you cannot even deny that you are objectively asking men to sell themselves into slavery, don't be surprised that the ever-increasing percentage of them aren't doing as you ask, no matter how much joy, happiness and self-respect you promise them and how much you shame them for not doing so.

Blogger Avalanche June 17, 2019 9:42 AM  

C3 wrote: "in reality people pursue what is good for them directly and not others"

This is the standard and, actually, debunked materialist view: this man will not plant a tree under the shade of which he will never sit. And his entirely legit pain at the destruction of his family and the 'loss' of his kids, for now only one can hope, will moderate over time. Not heal, never heal, but become a burden he can carry more gracefully.

His duty AS a father -- even to children being torn away by a woman he thought was worth marrying -- is to buck up and carry on building. SOME DAY, God willing, his children will come back to him, and though he cannot ever regain their childhoods, he can create a new adult-to-adult relationship. Many times, duty sucks. It just does. There's no pleasure, no joy, no hope for the future -- there is just: do your duty and hope God will reward the faithful servant.

Many kids find joy and release, granted it could be a decade or more later, in reading their father's contemporaneous letters; he writes to them every week without sending it, or sending it and keeping a copy so if the woman destroys or prevents the letters from reaching the children now, or they are too young to read them; then in future, when the child comes to ask 'why daddy abandoned them,' there is a record of the agony of the father, that matches the agony of the child.

Does it help? Not now, not much. But, like planting that acorn for your children's futures, SAVING the present-day "seeds" allows them to know the truth later.

Duty does not require success; it requires doing it. Cold comfort, but {shrug} it's real.

Blogger Longtime Lurker June 17, 2019 9:43 AM  

Being the product of a rocky marriage, I often felt as a child that parental separation or divorce would have been just fine with me. Looking back, I now see "culture clash" as a major part of the problem. Suffice it to say that WASP + Balkan (Manioti + Vlach) did not a good marriage make.

When Vox talks about Diversity + Proximity = War, I just laugh. My family history, as well as my parent's marriage, illustrates that truism perfectly. However, my parents somehow kept it together and we all limped forward into the future.

More to the point, my Balkan dad was not ready for marriage due to the significant emotional damage he had sustained growing up. This caused him and us no end of grief and no small measure of shame. On his deathbed he told the padre that he was afraid to let go because he knew he was going to hell.

My mom also had serious issues with abuse growing up, which compounded the family problem, but she deserves credit for trying to fix herself as she went along. And for better or worse (depends on who you ask), immersion in Christian Evangelical religion was a major part of how she tried to fix herself and us (minus my Orthodox dad, who never joined us on Sundays).

The central tragedy is that all of the joy, happiness, and love that should have been my father's by right proved elusive because of his abusive behavior, the roots of which he never grappled with to any visible extent. That he died relatively young is not surprising.


Guys who don't have their personal act together, and my dad never did the necessary emotional repair work, often settle for inappropriate marriages with all the attendant dangers, including chronic unhappiness and the looming disaster called divorce. (Had my parents been boomers, I'm certain they would have divorced.)

Whatever you single guys do, make sure you have your personal act together--fix the damage first--before you cross the line of departure called marriage. If your gun shy like me, any excuses you may have for not settling down likely stem from whatever emotional/psychological damage you sustained growing up.

Embrace it. Deal with it. Crap social currents are beside the point and mostly irrelevant to your individual experience. At least that's how I see it in my case.

Blogger Monotonous Languor June 17, 2019 9:43 AM  

Analogy and Advice

Analogy: Would you invest all your time, money, and energy into starting your own business if you lived in a communist country?

In re marriage, it all comes down to operant conditioning since birth, and the resultant probabilities for the existence of a decent mate which are miniscule at best. All the most noble-sounding words in the world amount to a fantasy in the face of such reality. The whole country is disintegrating under the holy fantasies of the left, and I'm damn tired of having people's fantasies foisted off on me.

The most basic thing wrong with the white race today is white women. They should be incessantly ridiculed, derided, condemned, and spat upon by men. If enough white men did that, maybe all women would wake up from clown world.

Advice: Until and unless American women change back to Christianity and traditionalism (especially white American women), a white male should find his mate in another, most probably non-Western country. Understanding cultural differences is much easier than overcoming the latent devils spawned by 3rd-wave feminism. And marry her over there, not in the US.

You have your answer, I have mine. Read it and weep, brothers and sisters, amen.

Blogger Meanoldbasterd June 17, 2019 9:45 AM  

Did you ever square up with the old man?

Blogger pyrrhus June 17, 2019 9:47 AM  

Three traits of spouses that have featured in friends and family divorces...addiction problems, allergies to hard or dirty work, and of course the interest in leftist politics...

Blogger Gaius Gracchus June 17, 2019 9:48 AM  

Fertility is weird. Doctors are often wrong and fertility doctors get very rich pushing a narrow set of options.

My wife and I were told by multiple doctors we were both infertile. We adopted and then my wife got pregnant and we have some natural children.

Lifestyle changes were likely important factors.

Anyway, few in our world learn how to deal with emotional pain. Most try to block it out or numb it out. Suffering is part of life and when learn to process it and face it, we become more resilient.

It is like weightlifting. Building emotional muscles takes time and effort. But it is also freedom, as have greater self-mastery. Marriage and fatherhood are huge in helping to build emotional strength in that they give men opportunities to face difficult situations and issues.

Blogger Jack (LJCSOGHMOMAS) June 17, 2019 9:50 AM  

No Western man should consider getting married without learning and being fairly competent in Game. I don't mean pick-up artistry, but rather understanding the basics of female psychology. You don't drive a car or shoot a gun without knowing something about how they work, relationships with women are no different.

@Ranger, There are lots of children in the world who have shitty parents, one or both. If you want kids of your own but can't have them, maybe God is calling you to work with some of these other children in some capacity. Teachers and mentors can be life savers. Alternatively, or additionally, maybe you have some work that you're called to do, creating something else besides children. A few people are lucky enough to know from an early age what the meaning and purpose of their life is. But the rest of us have to struggle to figure it out. I pray for you and send my best wishes.

Blogger Alphaeus June 17, 2019 9:51 AM  

"Infertile men care (I am one of them).

Quelle surprise. Are you so new here that you don't know all WHAT ABOUT MEISM is not merely frowned upon, but openly derided?

YOU are not the fucking topic. So get over yourself for the nonce."

It seems to me that "what about ME?" is the topic.

As a committed Christian who seeks to live a life of discipleship I want to learn more and more how to deny my self, take up my cross, and follow the Lord Jesus Christ.

But there's more than one way to do that, is there not? Jesus told us to count the cost, so, how can you fault men for counting the cost and choosing MGTOW based on the state of things in the world around them? Is it so bizarre that in this Feminazi world a rational man would ask himself "what about ME?" and answer himself "I'd rather contribute some other way?"

Are you actually trying to improve the situation?

Blogger Patrick Kelly June 17, 2019 10:03 AM  

I didn't lose any children when the wife bailed on me. They were all adults by then. So, I can't say I've been through all of that exactly, but what C3 wrote reminds me of much of the internal turmoil and dark crap I wrestled with for years. Still pops its ugly head up now and then but by the grace and mercy of God through Christ Jesus I am able to stomp it back down into the abyss. Still not easy. Truth is that lame, cowardly, lazy crap was already in my lost sinful soul. Marriage and kids just force you to face it and deal with it. How you do that is a solemn undertaking. Better to fight those battles as early as possible than face eternity under the delusion you already won.

Most of the men in my extended family who dealt with divorce while kids were still at home re-married and some even had more children. All except a couple are still hanging in with those second families while being damn good fathers to the first batch. Good examples all around, and most of them are boomers.

I know things have changed some for you X'ers and millennials, but please find some hope and encouragement here. There is nothing more important or worthwhile. My personal example is a poor one with many lame failures but make an effort look and find there better ones around you.

Families are not comparable to a fkn Ponzi scheme. To consider it as such shows a twisted, selfish view of life. That's a comparison of temporary, earthly investment to much more long term, if not eternal values. What a bunch of crap. Please show us what mountain of dirt you have built that is more worthwhile and meaningful.

Blogger Patrick Kelly June 17, 2019 10:11 AM  

Also, fwiw, the less materially successful men in my family dealt with divorce and second families much better than the more financially well off and stable. Maybe struggling together in those battles makes for tougher souls in the long run.

Blogger Uncle Maffoo June 17, 2019 10:13 AM  

EK wrote:At the risk of venturing into "what about me" territory, as a 24 year old it seems that my past long term relationships were all obsessed with social media and their iPhones. I've heard advice from some Christian family men not to get married until after 30 and not to start looking until your late 20s. I know this has to do with sexual market value being higher for older men. Any of y'all got tips about how to separate the wheat from the chaff and find a stable woman? Seems most girls my age are going for older guys, and the younger college age girls just want to hook up. But I understand your point VD, the prerogative to have children outweighs the risks of marrying the "wrong person".

I'd say focus more on building yourself up in your career, financial health, physique, spiritual/emotional/mental health, etc. Learn Game, because a man (even a Christian man) needs to know how to interact with and yes, seduce women. Get acquainted with Christian family men who have teenage daughters. By the time you're 30, you'll stand out from the masses and have your pick of 18 year-olds.

Blogger SJ June 17, 2019 10:13 AM  

Don't marry a woman who uses a lot of social media.

Blogger Avalanche June 17, 2019 10:19 AM  

@8 "Mental encounter, toughness and courage are the other side. Successfully dealing with women means using that other side. It takes mental toughness and agility to handle a woman."

It also takes kindness, gentle management, and good humor. I picked up the following book to see if it was any good. It is GREAT! I've given copies to two men struggling with frustrating wives. This book describes the way my late husband managed to "tame his feral female." Recognizing, and not falling for a woman's tests but instead handling them toward success for both parties works! The fact that many, maybe MOST, women do not even realize they ARE testing their man, provided the bookends for men on how to not get caught up in her screaming -- or wanting to scream back.

What Women Want When They Test Men: How To Decode Female Behavior, Pass A Woman's Tests, And Attract Women Through Authenticity by Bruce Bryans.

I believe the guy was a PUA, which always makes me raise a cynical and angry eyebrow. You cannot save White Western womanhood by tricking them into casual sex, eh-wot? But this book really hits it right: perhaps, like Roosh, this guy finally grew up?

The other book I will recommend VERY highly, is Love & Respect: The Love She Most Desires; The Respect He Desperately Needs by Emerson Eggerichs. Great book, based in science for the non-Christian, and based on the biblical passage from Ephesians 5:33 "every husband must love his wife as he loves himself, and wives should respect their husbands." His premise is that communication between a husband and wife is often frustrated because of the vastly different ways in which men and women perceive love. Women are wired to need unconditional love and men need to feel unconditionally respected.

Chapman's Five Love Languages is also good.

If both partners will study up and learn that the sexes ARE fundamentally different and so, are motivated -- rewarded and punished -- by different ways of interacting, then their lives will be easier. If you speak 'woman' to your husband, it's usually not a language he understands. And if you men speak 'man' to your women -- if you make your decisions, unconscious or not, on how you interact AS IF a woman was a rational, logical male... Yeah, not your most successful choice!

Alison Armstrong is also an excellent relationship educator. Learning how we each perceive the other's acts and words will massively help prevent divorce. Example: I learned that my husband believed he was "showing he loved me" by mowing the lawn. I doubt there is a woman on the planet for whom that *feels like* love. However, by learning that his 'providing and protecting' was HOW he showed his love for me, I could 'read his message' and then ASK him for the things that felt like love to me.

Women usually complain: "why do *I* have to do all the work in the relationship?!" Answer: "because you're woman, and it's a woman's skill, not a man's skill."

Blogger Patrick Kelly June 17, 2019 10:26 AM  

Roman Daoist wrote:Funny thing about suicide, I once realised, is that I can always come back to it later.

People who kill themselves just lack imagination - and take themselves way too seriously.

May as well get some things DONE first.


Hell, I still enjoyed making breakfast, drinking morning coffee, shooting rifle at the range, playing my guitar. No great achievements there, but even my selfish indulgences are better than diving into the abyss. Eventually they help pull my head out of my ass and move on.

Find some close, immediate thing to hang onto and pull yourself up by, don't focus on the overwhelming big nasty universe out there all the time.

Blogger John Rockwell June 17, 2019 10:40 AM  

The purpose of man is the Kingdom of God. Everything else will be added to him.

Even if he remains single.

Blogger English Tom June 17, 2019 10:50 AM  

@Johnny

Unless the athlete happens to be a tranny!

Blogger VD June 17, 2019 10:52 AM  

is pushing all others to follow him.

And therein lies the evil. Misery loves company. How is he any different than a bitter divorced woman trying to convince her friends to get divorced too?

It seems to me that "what about ME?" is the topic.

It's not.

Blogger Weouro June 17, 2019 10:57 AM  

I've been thinking about the priesthood. Granted most men are called to marriage, this is the normative path to salvation. The Catholic Church teaches that your vocation to a state in life is a way to help redeem your soul for Heaven. There are other long established vocations in Christianity than husband/father. They include priest and monk/nun in terms of religious life, but also teacher and prophet and possibly nurse/doctor and I'm sure other callings as well. But they basically amount to a hollowing out of selfish ambition for the sake of Christ and His Church. That's a mistake that the 50 y.o. omega is making, that his life is meaningless without having married. There are still many ways to lose your life for His sake.

Blogger English Tom June 17, 2019 11:00 AM  

I got divorced about 8 years ago. My 2 youngest were still very young. I can attest to the agony men go through being separated from their kids. I went through the stages of grief and I am out the other side. I am lucky. I still see my kids (and grandkids) and have a better relationship with my ex, who is a good woman and put up with me for many years.
The most important thing for me is maintaining a positive attitude to life. The thing about life is it can turn on a sixpence, and a bad phase can suddenly become good (and sadly, vice versa).

Stay positive. Whatever life throws at you, stay positive.

Blogger Alen June 17, 2019 11:01 AM  

"Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate." Matthew 10:9.


So, on the basis of this verse, and others like it, the Catholic teaching seems to solve this problem in one stroke.
So all that is needed is to follow the teachings of a traditional institution in which divorce is not an option. Even if your spouse wants it, your reply is that it was a contract made before God, and it is out of your hands. You are not willing to go against God’s will, nor can you dissolve what He has put together. And you will have the backing of your Church all the way. This effectively removes all the tortuous arguments made by MGTOW and others like them, an option which they never seriously considered. Because in many cases, their superficial, rationalistic arguments in fact reveal their newfound pleasure in rejecting women and being independent.

Also, as far as I’m aware, a divorce in most courts needs to be approved by both parties. Meaning, you can refuse to grant it. Maybe not everyone is aware of this.

The argument for Catholicism thus eliminates all the arguments against marriage based on fear of divorce or state of culture at large, since as an institution, it refuses divorce except in exceptional cases, and then it’s more of a nullification, and it also has general teachings that oppose modernity on other issues as well. Granted, it is a proselytizing argument, but I don’t see any other solution that is as clear cut.

Blogger Longtime Lurker June 17, 2019 11:02 AM  

@48: "Did you ever square up with the old man?"

No. Never really considered it to be a viable option. Fear Factor.

But once I got some size on me, he backed off with the physical stuff. I was also in the principal's office quite a bit between grades 5 and 8 for fighting. Mostly outside on school grounds, but also inside the building.

In 7th grade I beat the hell out of an older boy because he made the mistake of trying to dominate me in front of the entire junior high student body during a football game.

Just because I had to endure physical abuse and humiliation at home, or so I thought, didn't mean I had to take that crap at school.

I think my Dad got the message, now that I think about it.

Blogger KirkTownzen June 17, 2019 11:06 AM  

I had my first child by accident. I knew plenty about MGTOW, but there were a couple real men in my life who set the example of not running away. It was the best thing that ever happened to me, the nearly instantaneous right of passage out of man-childhood. Working on #2 right now.

Blogger Sherlock June 17, 2019 11:06 AM  

Essentially you're saying: "Did God really say [insert something God plainly said]?"

Blogger Uncle John's Band June 17, 2019 11:13 AM  

"God wants people to invest, but God does not want us to throw our capital down a rat hole investing in what seem to be to them losing propositions."

Nice inversion, deceiver. God's will is to be ignored because of how things "seem".

Is capital your god, or more 'do what thou wilt' in general sense?

Blogger Sherlock June 17, 2019 11:14 AM  

This is such a revealing topic.

There are some here rationalizing, through terrible Biblical eisegesis, their selfishness.

They're warping the Bible to say: "Be fruitful and multiply; unless, of course, you predict (with your human understanding) more future pain than you could bear."

This is a repeat of the first lie: "Did God really say...?"

The mans replies "Yes, He did."

Blogger Christian Schulzke June 17, 2019 11:16 AM  

I'm glad Vox is taking this topic on. I sympathize with those who have been royally screwed over in divorce court, but the whole MGTOW movement is a retreat. One that shouldn't engaged in. There are plenty of trad girls out there, just don't go looking in for them in an office environment.

Blogger VD June 17, 2019 11:18 AM  

I believe that MGTOW is a rational choice similar to when I choose not to invest in a Ponzi scheme.

Then you're stupid. MGTOW guarantees you end up with nothing.

God wants people to invest, but God does not want us to throw our capital down a rat hole investing in what seem to be to them losing propositions.

God specifically said what He thinks about people like you who refuse to take risks with what He has given you.

“Then the servant with the one bag of silver came and said, ‘Master, I knew you were a harsh man, harvesting crops you didn’t plant and gathering crops you didn’t cultivate. I was afraid I would lose your money, so I hid it in the earth. Look, here is your money back.’

“But the master replied, ‘You wicked and lazy servant! If you knew I harvested crops I didn’t plant and gathered crops I didn’t cultivate, why didn’t you deposit my money in the bank? At least I could have gotten some interest on it.’

“Then he ordered, ‘Take the money from this servant, and give it to the one with the ten bags of silver. To those who use well what they are given, even more will be given, and they will have an abundance. But from those who do nothing, even what little they have will be taken away. Now throw this useless servant into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’


You are wicked and literally useless, by Divine diktat.

Blogger Sherlock June 17, 2019 11:20 AM  

Hear! Hear!

Blogger Noah B. June 17, 2019 11:23 AM  

C3 would have been DJ if he had withdrawn and never given marriage and children a shot. He should at least recognize that much.

Blogger MightyKevster June 17, 2019 11:26 AM  

VD, thank you for the stream and conversation. I agree wholeheartedly.

Seeing the title made me think of the first question in the Westminster Catechism:
Question: "What is the chief end of man?"
Answer: "Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy Him for ever."

God's first command to mankind was "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it."

Being a father and raising children 'in the training and instruction of the Lord' is the absolute best way for men to 'glorify God and enjoy Him forever.'

Advocating the opposite of fatherhood is to reject God's command, curse what He has blessed, and set yourself up as an enemy to mankind.

Blogger Uncle John's Band June 17, 2019 11:27 AM  

"I'm afraid of the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Marine Corps, the US Marshall Service, the US Secret Service, the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, the Department of Commerce, the Department of Labor, the Department of Agriculture, the state police, the local police, the highway patrol, and the local dog catcher all coming at me to destroy the family that I worked hard for and invested everything I had or ever will have to build."

No you aren't. You're a solipsistic coward trying to justify your weakness. But your mewling screed is incoherent because your cowardice and solipsism are unjustifiable. And were you sincere, you'd know that distorting scripture is the more serious transgression.

Blogger Jay Will June 17, 2019 11:30 AM  

Modern women are nowhere near as bad as is made out.

The worlds doomed excuses you from trying. There's no hope so don't bother. Easy to get sucked into that.

Imagine believing in billions of years of evolution, and thinking that having no children won't have some serious negative affects on you. Your deep brain KNOWS you've failed. Even literal cucks are above the childless.

Blogger Noah B. June 17, 2019 11:36 AM  

"I'm afraid of the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Marine Corps, the US Marshall Service, the US Secret Service, the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, the Department of Commerce, the Department of Labor, the Department of Agriculture, the state police, the local police, the highway patrol, and the local dog catcher all coming at me to destroy the family that I worked hard for and invested everything I had or ever will have to build."

So it's preferable to never try because things might not work out if the Navy comes after you? You're acting purely out of fear and therefore it's plainly obvious that you're not following Jesus at all.

Blogger Garuna June 17, 2019 11:39 AM  

MGTOW fags are always trying to shame successful men out of relationships. Interesting how the only only collective action they can think of is a mass ragequit. Muslims shut down Muhammad drawings. If Western men wanted, they could shut down divorces very easily using similar tactics. But MGTOW is not really about shutting down divorce. It's about posturing and trying to ruin superior men.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 June 17, 2019 11:41 AM  

As long as a single one of us lives, we are legion.

The king of this world rules with fear. But we have hope in the salvation of Jesus. The best thing a man can do to ensure the future is to marry and have children. Very few men can do otherwise like Tesla or Newton and even those men should have had children.

You're average at best. Get married, have children, and accept the inherent risks involved.

Blogger EK June 17, 2019 11:43 AM  

@55 Thanks for the advice. So to learn game and to be ready for finding a future wife I do have to have some short flings in order to up my skills, so to speak? I'm tired of having 1+ year long relationships that fizzle out.

Blogger Garuna June 17, 2019 11:45 AM  

MGTOW are inferior subhumans who can't even attract and keep their woman. They try to generalize their failure, whining incessantly about how unfair the world is. But their divorces are actually a personal failure. If a man is high quality, he has all the power in the relationship.

Look at all these whiny posts from the MGTOW untermensch. Do you think they actually acted in a manly way in any of their relationships? No. They're whiny bitches, that is why their woman left them.

COPE harder, MGTOW.

Blogger Ranger June 17, 2019 11:47 AM  

The answer to a man who WILL not have kids is quite simple: "you bring shame on your ancestors. Marriage, even today, is not more dangerous than war. Especially if you are aware of the dangers, you will survive even the worst scenarios".

Not much of a debate there, which is why I asked my question. Thank you all for the answers and the prayers.

Blogger Wazdakka June 17, 2019 11:48 AM  

We each add what we can to continue civilisation.
The least that should be aimed for is to be a Christian, a husband and a father. Also to support your family through productive work.
Anything else is a bonus.

Blogger KirkTownzen June 17, 2019 11:52 AM  

@80 Game has nothing to do with your 1+ year relationships that fizzle. The purpose of Game is to acquire good looking girls who are DTF in a short time period. The fizzling of established relationships is likely related to a lack of assertiveness or other cuckish behavior. By the 1yr mark, you should have either dumped the girl or asked her to marry you. Sooner would be better. Know what you want and go for it, do not wait for the woman to initiate anything asuide from baking.

Blogger The Cooler June 17, 2019 11:54 AM  

I speak with young -- under 30 -- people regularly. I'm here to tell you, young men are as worthless as the softer sex of this demo; more so, arguably, as males have more inherent responsibility.

Hone your mind, body and soul, young buck. A man does -- and women notice. All else follows.

Blogger Patrick Kelly June 17, 2019 11:57 AM  

EK wrote:@55 Thanks for the advice. So to learn game and to be ready for finding a future wife I do have to have some short flings in order to up my skills, so to speak? I'm tired of having 1+ year long relationships that fizzle out.

I don't know if you care about traditional Christian values eschewing fornication, but you can work game talking, socializing and flirting without any sexual fling involved.

Blogger Cabeza de Vaca June 17, 2019 11:58 AM  

John Rockwell wrote:The purpose of man is the Kingdom of God. Everything else will be added to him.

Even if he remains single.


And not get caught up in all the details, the devil lies therein.

I don't think it's a good idea to try to learn game and seduce women. Abstaining from sex before marriage will allow you to know if you've found real love or just a temporary sexual attachment that will eventually lead to divorce after the excitement wears off. Avoid sex addiction all together by abstaining from masturbation and casual sex. Sex is for making babies, all the rest is just icing on the cake.

If you get over your emotional issues and become a real, authentic and strong man then you'll see that women are trying to seduce you with their sexy clothes and makeup and you should be able to see through all that to find one who can follow your lead and give up the superficialities and get real with you.

Blogger Tars Tarkas June 17, 2019 11:59 AM  

It's hard to imagine a more destructive movement for young men than MGTOW, especially when mixed with grifters and damaged young men. The young guys are using MGTOW as an excuse to justify their failure to launch. There are a lot of grifters in the older bunch.
I had a hard time putting my finger on what is wrong with MGTOW, and I still do, but it was obviously cancer.

Blogger James Dixon June 17, 2019 12:00 PM  

> I'm tired of having 1+ year long relationships that fizzle out.

There's a demotivator poster that says something like "The one thing all of your failed relationships have in common is you".

Either you're the reason the relationships are failing or you're making bad choices. In either case, it's up to you to fix it.

Blogger anorganicbear June 17, 2019 12:13 PM  

IANAL, but couldn't you just have a religious marriage ceremony without having a state marriage license if you fear the legal consequences of a divorce?

God commands us to marry in his eyes in order to be right with him. He never specifies that you need to present a valid state-recognized marriage license upon arriving at the Pearly Gates. If society's version of marriage is corrupted and diseased, reject it.

@62: "That's a mistake that the 50 y.o. omega is making, that his life is meaningless without having married. There are still many ways to lose your life for His sake."

I'm curious what others here think regarding Paul saying it's preferable to remain celibate and devote your whole life to God than to marry? Obviously children are a blessing, but if you're celibate you aren't going to have any. My thought is that most of us are too sinful and weak-willed to devote ourselves so thoroughly to God, and so there will never be a shortage of married men to populate the earth.

Blogger EK June 17, 2019 12:15 PM  

@84, @89 Yeah I agree with what you guys are saying, I have to be more assertive + be better at picking a marriage-material mate.

@88 I fall into the category of men raised by a single mom and I'm thankful to God that I haven't fallen into the MGTOW trap, but the insecurity of not feeling manly enough because of the lack of a father figure is a demon one has to overcome.

Blogger Theproductofafineeduction June 17, 2019 12:16 PM  

>and its rather like listening to someone who plays a lot of video games telling you that combat, isn't that bad because his game has good graphics and sound so he understands.

On the chans they have a phrase to describe this passage and it rhymes with make and day.


No one does this.

Blogger Alen June 17, 2019 12:20 PM  

@anorganicbear Your last point is quite realistic and true, of course.
That’s why in Christian writings through the centuries the same lesson is repeated: marriage is a good, but devoting oneself fully to God is even better.
Both are goods, to be pursued according to one’s abilities and predispositions.

Blogger OneWingedShark June 17, 2019 12:31 PM  

White Templar wrote:If you truly cannot find a decent woman, then find fatherless children and provide them the male role model they need.
I think this is most excellent advice.
If you don't mind, I'll appropriate it.

Ranger wrote:Infertile men care (I am one of them). Ever since finding out, the purpose of life has been hard to find, especially considering only the temporal dimension.
Be of good cheer, God has even you considered:
Isiah 56:3 “Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.”
I believe you will find the context to be uplifting and encouraging.

Beardy Bear wrote:@Silent Draco - When women court, they test a man's mental strength with challenges, not his physical strength. They test his mental bravery, not his physical bravery. Women understand subconsciously at least, that leadership requires mental strength and bravery. In some cases in leading her, it will challenge and tax it.

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." 2Timothy

Thank you; this is one of the more insightful and encouraging comments on this thread.

Blogger Haus frau June 17, 2019 12:31 PM  

Ive sat and listened many time to my omega brother bitterly argue that marriage is not worth rolling the dice and even using my husband's failed first marriage as an example of why the risk is not worth it. All of it is sour grapes. It takes a lot of work to change into someone capable of finding and screening potential partners and then maintaining a healthy relationship. Personal growth in a high stakes game of marriage is intimidating. Sometimes terrible relationships do happen to good people through no fault of their own but most of the time there were signs there right from the beginning.

Blogger berb2000 June 17, 2019 12:36 PM  

SO many AMerican and Euro women have no belief in a God. It is imperative to find a woman that has at least some belief in an afterlife. If they believe that having a child is their only inclusion into the future then just the mere act of child birth alone is good enough for them. If they believe their actions will be accounted for, even if they do something horrible (like cheat and so on) you can work with them through that to save a family.

And families need saving, that is for sure.

Blogger Balam June 17, 2019 12:39 PM  

Cabeza de Vaca wrote:I don't think it's a good idea to try to learn game and seduce women.
...
If you get over your emotional issues and become a real, authentic and strong man then you'll see that women are trying to seduce you with their sexy clothes and makeup and you should be able to see through all that to find one who can follow your lead and give up the superficialities and get real with you.


Roosh summarized the counter position well; people listen to PUA because no one else is telling them anything. PUA blew up and became huge because their friends, parents, siblings, the media (in particular), cuck churches, the schools were all saying 'just be yourself' or some claptrap which ends up being devoid of actionable meaning. Or even detrimental, worse than useless lies. And once a man realizes he's been lied to he's going to be much slower in taking anything anyone has to say with any enthusiasm. In your own statement, for example, you mention getting over emotional issues, becoming real man, authentic man, strong man.

How do you get over emotional issues? Who taught anyone how to do that and more importantly all the aforementioned sources are teaching ways to fail at doing it guaranteed, even worse than useless. How do you become a 'real man', can you even point to an example especially in the life of a kid with no father? Authentic man, meaningless statement especially when the real advice is closer to 'fake it til you make it'. Strong man, weightlifting is being derided at large and the bodybuilding community is becoming more isolated from society at large with terms like 'gymbro, fratbro' etc with more people being absolutely clueless on how to get strong. The 'strongest' looking men in media all silently lie about how they got there, which is drugs diet and weightlifting, instead favoring the comfortable lie 'just be yourself bro'.

I'm not saying you are lying or deceptive, your statements are just illustrative of the common problem that men aren't being told what they can actually do. All those phrases like that are not helping men who simply don't have the tools. There is a lot of unspoken benefit, custom and tradition from a white Christian big extended family society that evaporated in the boomer era. You didn't need people overtly teaching manhood, you could get it through osmosis. Now you need explicit advice/instruction and, again as Roosh said, who exactly is even trying to give actionable clear instruction?

MGTOW is the definition of learned helplessness, many of them don't see that there are tools to get what they want because those tools have been withheld from them or they have been lied to. Look at this infogalactic section, dogs who see no way to escape or control electric shocks just lie down and take it, note that they don't even jump around in pain anymore, they actually lay down on the electric floor hurting them and whined.
https://infogalactic.com/info/Learned_helplessness#Early_key_experiments

The only way to retrain the dogs was for their limbs to be handled like a puppet and puppet-walked away from the pain, to show it's possible, and at least 2 times at that before they saw it was something they could try! That's why you can't just tell people to 'man up, be authentic, be reeeeal', you need to give puppet-like advice and show people it worked for. Lift heavy weights according to this program, eat these many calories per day, interact with women in this exact manner (ie game advice), save this exact amount of your paycheck, wear these exact kinds of clothes. Once the man gets some sense of autonomy back he'll be a thinking human again!

Blogger OneWingedShark June 17, 2019 12:47 PM  

Balam, you wrote a really good post with a brutally honest, if depressing, assessment of the situation — who exactly is even trying to give actionable clear instruction? is the question.
(And it perfectly explains Jordan Peterson's fame, despite easily being mocked as wash your penis-style advice.)

Blogger VD June 17, 2019 12:55 PM  

Balam, you wrote a really good post with a brutally honest, if depressing, assessment of the situation — who exactly is even trying to give actionable clear instruction? is the question.

Owen is. I am. Plenty of people are. The problem is that the whiners don't want to hear what we're saying, they want someone who will tell them they are just fine as they are.

Blogger Starboard June 17, 2019 12:57 PM  

"Until death do us part."

It's a promise, a threat, and a goal, sometimes all three in the same day.

Blogger James Dixon June 17, 2019 1:02 PM  

> IANAL, but couldn't you just have a religious marriage ceremony without having a state marriage license if you fear the legal consequences of a divorce?

No. The courts will count you as legally married.

> I have to be more assertive + be better at picking a marriage-material mate.

It never hurts to ask for help from above. I know it helped in my case.

Blogger Doktor Jeep June 17, 2019 1:13 PM  

Less of a drama queen though. Anything queen-ish is going to be too Corporal Klinger for me.

C3's post reminded me of "MGTOW copypasta". It seems like there is a pattern to this. It's a feasible pattern because the laws on the books do make it possible. I have been through a divorce, though no kids involved - I might be one of those sterile ones: too much time around military radar systems maybe - and did not get the "standard" divorce rape as one would expect. Yeah I managed to get married once. Hey at least she was not fat what can I say?

Sometimes it seems as if shilling on the internet is more common, yet insidious, than actual censorship. Or perhaps censorship covers for it. The point being, I see that MGTOW copypasta appear in a lot of places. Of course there are horror stories that happened. There are many that didn't. I have my share. But we only remember the bad drivers at the end of a road trip too.
For example, hang out on the chans all day, and by the end of the day, you'll feel like every white woman wants the BBC, we're going to get replaced, our guns taken, and we get put in gulags staffed by 300 lb SJWs.
Out in the real world, where the sun burns, I see more and more white babies and toddlers with white parents just about everywhere I go.
Shilling versus censorship...
So, what's going on? If I were to go online to the chans and say "how come I can't hook up with a white QT" there will be a flood of they all want BBC copypasta, just like I see this with anything involving marriage, MGTOW, etc. When results vary. On the internet we get told there is no hope.
I see some channels that go that way often and they persist. Sure they get demonetized and "strikes". But they persist. If every one of them started to instill hope by offering solution - like Vox and Owen perhaps - you'd see the banhammer in 2 minutes.
This is why we don't see a breathless sound-the-alarm article about the white birthrate that actually looks better than we are told. Why, if Goldy McShekelbergstein were to write some panicked article about too many white babies being born, other people might think "so it's not as bad as I thought". They might go put on a clean shirt and go out on a date for once. Can't have that. So let's have another hate article instead that tells you how doomed you are and how happy that makes the fat leering SJWs.

I'm not innocent. But over the last few years I watch less and less of the usual channels because with each online rant video detailing what's wrong with ... everything... I find myself thinking "Hey I know what the problem is. Where is the solution?"
So far I see only Vox and Owen actually presenting any. These, plus some mechanics, game, and electronics channels, are the only ones I watch.

If there had been men like Vox, Owen, Roosh, etc. back in my youth my life would have been very different. So much despair gone to waste.

Blogger Kat June 17, 2019 1:18 PM  

Those looking for tools: Athol Kaye's stuff is pretty good. He wrote Married Man Sex Life and a few other things. I hung out on his forums a bit.

He takes game/attraction ideas and focuses them on LRTs and marriage. One of his strengths IMO is that he's able to balance support and excitement/attraction. Helps you figure out whether "please get me a glass of water" is a shit test or a request for support - short version is that it tends to scale with how far along she is with pregnancy/postpartum.

Blogger anorganicbear June 17, 2019 1:23 PM  

@101: "No. The courts will count you as legally married."

What if you have a private ceremony and don't tell anyone?

Blogger Cabeza de Vaca June 17, 2019 1:34 PM  

Balam wrote:
That's why you can't just tell people to 'man up, be authentic, be reeeeal',


Yeah those were very general recommendations, I wasn't getting into details. As I said you can get too caught up in details. PUA material gets into too many details, who would want to learn all that and try to remember it every time you interact with a woman? It seems way too complicated and I think it's better to simplify instead, become a simple man like Skynyrd, and pursue the Kingdom of God as I quoted. I think PUA can involve a lot of narcissism which isn't very manly but works with some women who are attracted to assholes.

That's what Jesse Lee Peterson recommends and he also has a lot of advice for dealing with emotional issues which boils down to forgive your parents and men should not be emotional, at all. Listen to him, that's my specific advice. That and focusing on real manly family values. Listen to Big Bear who has some great ideas. I don't take either of these guys at face value and don't agree with them even close to 100% but figuring out what you can learn from and adopting it in real life is part of being authentic. Being a Christian and trying to love God with all your strength should bring more strength as well as understanding Logos and reading Aurelius and other stuff Vox recommends along those lines can give you a sound basis for strength that you might not have gotten from your father or other male role models.

I think that bodybuilding is ridiculous, pumping up big fluffy muscles for looks just looks ridiculous to me. Nobody at the gym needs a spotter for bench press because they're using low weight and just doing a lot of reps. You build real strength from using heavy weights with fewer reps pushed to the point of exhaustion multiple times. Then you get lean, hard muscles that don't bulge out everywhere making you look like a freak, you just look like a badass because you are one who cares about what he can do with his body not what it looks like. I learned that at crossfit, you might try it or just look for more information on the high intensity principal. Dr. Mercola has a lot of great health, diet and workout advice also.


I got all these ideas from the sources cited above, go check them yourself. If you don't want to become a Christian and remain an atheist free-thinker you'll need to substitute some of them and I can certainly see why PUA material would be more attractive for someone who is still in that mode. I haven't lived all these things myself either so take my advice for what it's worth. I wish I had known these things when I was much younger but I guess I'm another victim of boomer parents, who I still need to forgive...

Blogger OneWingedShark June 17, 2019 1:35 PM  

VD wrote:Balam, you wrote a really good post with a brutally honest, if depressing, assessment of the situation — who exactly is even trying to give actionable clear instruction? is the question.

Owen is. I am. Plenty of people are. The problem is that the whiners don't want to hear what we're saying, they want someone who will tell them they are just fine as they are.

You and Owen, yes.
But the vast majority, WRT American society, seem perfectly content with the "push them into the river, if they drown, oh well; if they learn to swim, fine"-approach.

Blogger James Dixon June 17, 2019 1:45 PM  

> What if you have a private ceremony and don't tell anyone?

It's not the ceremony itself that triggers it, though that will be taken as evidence of intent. If you've been living together for more than a certain amount of time (it'll vary by locality), the courts will almost certainly consider you married.

Blogger The Cooler June 17, 2019 1:48 PM  

@107 A.K.A. a sui iuris or "Common Law" Marriage.

Blogger mgh June 17, 2019 1:50 PM  

#70 "There are plenty of trad girls out there, just don't go looking in for them in an office environment." True in a strict sense, but there are some who are not yet lost if you look closely. Young, answering the phone, clerical types can be pulled back to their trad roots if they have any. Those with MBA, CPA or an IT graduate are likely already too focused on career to see a future that doesn't include daycare kids, luxury cars and housing.

Blogger anorganicbear June 17, 2019 1:51 PM  

@107: Would it be possible for the father to rent a place nearby and leave at night to go sleep there?

Blogger Cabeza de Vaca June 17, 2019 1:59 PM  

The information in this book mentioned above seems very legitimate and probably mostly spot on but I think you would end up doing mostly all the same things living by Christian values and principals especially doing your duty to be the leader of woman and head of the family while not getting emotional. I suppose some tips in the book might give you an edge, lacking examples from your typical "she's the boss" boomer father.

What Women Want When They Test Men: How to Decode Female Behavior, Pass a Woman's Tests, and Attract Women Through Authenticity by Bruce Bryans

Here's what you're going to learn:

How to be radically honest with a woman and why this makes her more attracted to you.
The reason why women test men consistently and how to use this knowledge to deepen a woman's desire.
How to make a woman happy without becoming a complete doormat of a man.
How to seduce your wife and get her in the mood by responding like a man whenever she "pokes the bear".
How to be firm and say no to the woman you love without destroying intimacy.
How to keep a woman interested in you by doing the one thing most men are deathly afraid of doing.
How to avoid unnecessary arguments, fights, and drama with a woman by using a simple communication technique.
The best way to secretly test a woman's level of romantic interest in you before making a long-term commitment.
How to stop living in fear of what a woman might think, say, or do if she disagrees with or disapproves of you in any way.
And much, much more...

Blogger VD June 17, 2019 2:04 PM  

I think that bodybuilding is ridiculous, pumping up big fluffy muscles for looks just looks ridiculous to me.

No one cares what you think looks ridiculous. The point is that some women like them, which is why men do it.

Blogger Kat June 17, 2019 2:05 PM  

mgh wrote:#70 "There are plenty of trad girls out there, just don't go looking in for them in an office environment." True in a strict sense, but there are some who are not yet lost if you look closely. Young, answering the phone, clerical types can be pulled back to their trad roots if they have any. Those with MBA, CPA or an IT graduate are likely already too focused on career to see a future that doesn't include daycare kids, luxury cars and housing.

Most young women aren't going to sit around at home sewing quilts for their hope chest and waiting for Mr. Well Bearded to draw her father aside after Sunday dinner because unless her father is also super wealthy she's going to have to do something to earn a bare living at some point in life.

So, yes, look for them in offices. Go on any homeschooling forum and you'll find women who were nurses or did corporate fundraising or even law who are happily homeschooling their kids and volunteering their skills at the local homeschool co-op/crisis pregnancy center/church/etc. A woman can be entirely feminine without feeling the need to put her life on hold and/or get a job at Chick-fil-a in order to prove she's not one of those career girls. Obviously certain jobs skew more or less committed. A woman probably isn't getting an MD to be a stay at home mom. Nursing degree though? Corporate buyer? Accountant? You don't know until you find out.

Blogger VFM #7634 June 17, 2019 2:05 PM  

"What is perhaps most interesting is the rival responses from two omegas - or if you prefer, Men Going Their Own Way - concerning my statements"

C3 strikes me as more gamma than omega, honestly.

Blogger Garuna June 17, 2019 2:39 PM  

All this advice-seeking is just procrastination. Everybody knows more or less what they are and are not supposed to do to be an attractive man. Gimme a break with all this "I'm so lost and confused" shtick.

Strong man, weightlifting is being derided at large and the bodybuilding community is becoming more isolated from society

Pure bullshit. Get out of the basement, dude.

Blogger Cabeza de Vaca June 17, 2019 2:40 PM  

VD wrote:I think that bodybuilding is ridiculous, pumping up big fluffy muscles for looks just looks ridiculous to me.

No one cares what you think looks ridiculous. The point is that some women like them, which is why men do it.


My point was just that it's not for everybody, Balam seemed confused about it, there are different ways to go about lifting weights, bodybuilding is just one approach though some people think they are synonymous. I shouldn't have ridiculed it and I admit that I just don't understand it.

Blogger VD June 17, 2019 2:45 PM  

I shouldn't have ridiculed it and I admit that I just don't understand it.

There you go.

Blogger James Dixon June 17, 2019 2:46 PM  

> @107: Would it be possible for the father to rent a place nearby and leave at night to go sleep there?

Probably. But having children sort of shoots that illusion.

Look, you're not going to outsmart the legal system by playing games. They'll decide whether or not they consider you married and nothing you can do is going to change that.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd June 17, 2019 3:01 PM  

Many years ago I asked a friend who is a natural Alpha and PUA why all the good girls were married and all the single ones were crazy. He told me that getting married made them feel secure and fixed the crazy. If you can pass the shit tests often enough, you can keep them secure and repaired.

Blogger Kallmunz June 17, 2019 3:07 PM  

This is all so amusing. A small group of men, much lower on the hierarchy, decide to simply walk away, so what? Well obviously these losers have a large space in your heads. The feminists are shrieking “INCEL, YOU JUST CAN’T GET LAID.” Meanwhile the Saviors of Western Civilization are yelling “coward.” No need to try to convince them, just hurl insults until the losers bow to their superiors. Great plan, I can just see all the MGTOWS saying to themselves “ by gosh, they’re right, I’m going to join them.” Obviously your great plan to save Western Civilization will only work if these losers join you.
Please don’t let this go, do double down.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd June 17, 2019 3:12 PM  

There are 27 + 13 states that don't allow a couple to enter into a common law marriage, but @118 has it right: the divorce judge is going to do whatever it takes to preserve the narrative and award her cash and prizes.

You have to do what it takes to find a church and a community that will back you up as head of the household. You need a preacher who preaches that wives submit to their husbands.

Blogger sammibandit June 17, 2019 3:15 PM  

The family tree planted by my father when I was born is going to bloom this year. In the mythos of my Northman father, a blooming ash tree when a child is coming is an omen of God's favor. If one is expecting a child and the Linden doesn't bloom it is a bad omen. I'm so blessed. I smell the fragrant ash flower so rately as it doesn't bloom often. Yesterday I got to enjoy it with my parents. My cynical brother didn't join us.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd June 17, 2019 3:16 PM  

Kallmunz wrote:A small group of men, much lower on the hierarchy, decide to simply walk away, so what? Well obviously these losers have a large space in your heads. The feminists are shrieking “INCEL, YOU JUST CAN’T GET LAID.”

Feminists shrieking ... means the MGTOW are a threat to them. That is not what I expected. I expected they would negligible, and neglected. God bless 'em, maybe they're doing some tiny bit of good.

Little bit of good or not, if they choose not to have children, they're still neutering themselves.

Blogger RM June 17, 2019 3:36 PM  

I can add to this.

I was an Omega. Read Alpha Game Plan if you doubt it. My posts are still there.

"its an empty shell like surviving. . . prison rape."

I was an empty shell. I was dealt a massively shitty hand. Sexual abuse at 5 seriously fucked me over.

I had every right to despair.

But I told my mom I would never commit suicide so the only way forward was up.

And I fought my way out.

I went to the end of the earth to heal. My search took me to South America, alone, where I drank Ayahuasca. I left my job as a software developer to work the oil fields in Texas. I changed my fate. I took Nate's advice and found Dragons to slay. . . and just as he predicted women don't scare me.

I owe a debt of gratitude to Vox and Nate and the Christians here that hold the line for those who can't. . . yet.

I continue to fight.

I'll be damned if I don't get what I want. I want a wife. I want kids. I want to build a family in defiance of the darkness that took so much from me. I became a Christian because I have seen the evil in this world, face to face, and it nearly destroyed me.

Am I scared. . . yeah. Hell is arrayed against me and mine.


But I've walked through the darkness.

But I have Christ.

Fuck your fear.

Be a man.

Stand up and find a way forward.

Blogger Tim Ryan June 17, 2019 3:48 PM  

I was narried 13 years before having my forst child, followed by a second. Financial troubles lead to foreclosure, moving to her mom's house, and a car repo. She ditched me and the kids. The last two years have had moments of pain I had not experienced before. And yet. I woukd do it all over again to have my kids. Your memory, Vox, of the gorilla walking, struck me as so familiar. Life takes on a luster you cannot know if you dont have kids. Men, it's worth it. Do right. Fight fear.

Blogger VD June 17, 2019 4:03 PM  

Well obviously these losers have a large space in your heads.

Always nice to see the Gammas contributing.... Why do you think we're trying to change THEIR minds? That's like trying to convince the Ebola to play nicely this time.

Blogger justaguy June 17, 2019 4:13 PM  

Western societies used to have rules that supported families and marriage. In a Burkean way, these values/mores were developed because they worked-- led to successful reproduction of the communities. The Progressives knew in the late 1800s/early 1900 that they had to change society to meet their utopian goals. Indeed their utopia is based on society molding the man!

After 100 years of work, they have changed society. The largest changes happened in the last 50 years due to widely available contraception and laws allowing its availability. VD blames the Boomers for this, but I think that my Boomer generation was merely the first to be afflicted with widely available contraception and the resultant spread of free and easy sex.

As a late Boomer, yes the easy sex was nice when young and dumb. But it leads to incompatible relationships based on lust. For those without a Christian ethos, the sex first, relationship second, is something that men who take care of themselves can readily enjoy sex is not the mainstay of any relationship or family.

So now we have a society that does not support family and marriage but actively opposes it. So what! As VD repeatedly writes, for the Christian, Satan actively opposes us-- we must persevere. I can’t really comment much on the woman’s side with her temptations, but for the men, what I see as an all too often mistake in relationships and finding a good woman--

that men should never sleep with anyone they were not ready to marry.

One man I told this to, laughed. Too many of his ex's slept with him the first time they met-- and guess what-- they weren't really compatible but had lust. Lust can't keep a relationship going. He normally took 6+ months before finding this out... but it can be hard to ignore the easy score regardless of what Proverbs tells us about this.

This may seem like something obvious, but it really is no longer the norm. What I wonder is why, after failing in a relationship started off by sex, the man is surprised it didn’t last?

Blogger SirHamster June 17, 2019 4:22 PM  

Alphaeus wrote:... how can you fault men for counting the cost and choosing MGTOW based on the state of things in the world around them?

Because such men are living by sight and not faith. They are accepting the frame of the world around them.

Human history was fundamentally changed by a single man counting the cost and accepting his unjust death on a cross, because he chose God's frame and accepted God's will in all things.

You can choose a different death than fatherhood, but you better be choosing a useful death.

Alphaeus wrote:Is it so bizarre that in this Feminazi world a rational man would ask himself "what about ME?" and answer himself "I'd rather contribute some other way?"

Are you actually trying to improve the situation?


No. Yes.

Men need a higher purpose. "What about ME?!" isn't it. Is the fruitless life not obvious enough?

Blogger Balam June 17, 2019 4:29 PM  

Garuna wrote:All this advice-seeking is just procrastination. Everybody knows more or less what they are and are not supposed to do to be an attractive man. Gimme a break with all this "I'm so lost and confused" shtick.

Strong man, weightlifting is being derided at large and the bodybuilding community is becoming more isolated from society

Pure bullshit. Get out of the basement, dude.


What would convince you that there is a concentrated campaign to get people to do the opposite of what would make them attractive, or at the very least neutral-result lies about how to become attractive? Fat acceptance retweet count, buzzfeed video views, money spent on transgender campaigns, 'dad bod' articles in big name magazines, nutrition misinformation from the government, toxic masculinity getting game/movie developers changing games/movies with budgets in the millions, people losing their jobs because of masculine behavior?

For every Vox, Owen, Dalrock, Rollo out there there's billionare backed Jordan Petersons, Ben Shapiros, Try Guys, Pope Francis. The well gets poisoned and some people need help to sort out the good info from the bad. Where do you get 'everybody knows more or less' from as opposed to 'most people are easily deceived or led and we are swimming in deceivers'.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella June 17, 2019 4:30 PM  

would ya'll mind praying for a man who does have a family, but is foolish, and is listening to evil women?

Blogger Scott June 17, 2019 4:48 PM  

As a former MGTOW, the communities obsession with rejecting "shaming tactics" trains them to ignore valid criticism if it's framed using rhetoric.

The arguments in favor of MGTOW are similar to the arguments in favor of Free Trade. If all you're doing is comparing numbers, then free trade comes out ahead. But, as Vox has pointed out, the practice of free trade destroy's families.

For a philosophy that's supposedly dedicated to improving men's lives, MGTOW has convinced men that true happiness is found by avoiding the possibility of pain. This is fear of pain and or fear of failure. Ergo, MGTOW are cowards because they're allowing fear(s) to dictate their lives.

However, pointing out the cowardice of MGTOW was not what convinced me to abandon the philosophy. In the first World War, the men who climbed out of the trenches to face machine gun fire were making a likely suicidal decision. But, they did it because they had a reason to do it.

Some MGTOW might understand that they're behaving as cowards, but consider themselves an exception. They're not acting out of fear, you see, but instead because there is no clear reward for the risk.

As the good book says,

James 2:20
"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

Or Tennyson, "Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all."

Some MGTOW might deny their cowardice by Reductio ad Absurdum. Rejecting the claim of cowardice by asserting it could be applied to anything. As if refusing to reproduce is as trivial a decision as refusing to buy fancy pants or lollipops. What contemptible selfishness. Their decision impacts an incalculable number of lives.

Some MGTOW might deny the claim of cowardice because they really do want a family, but the laws are impossible. Imagine if their pre-historic ancestor, starving to death in the winter, had come to the same conclusion because the weather was bad?

For a group of men who so despise the foolish and selfish decisions of women who go to college and waste their fertile years working in cubicles and fucking random men and aborting children... it's strange that they're so eager to genocide their own family line.

Blogger Clay June 17, 2019 5:00 PM  

Now, I believe in Jesus, like most here.

But...you always ruin one of the posts here by bringing religion into the commentary. At least, say, "OT".

Blogger Austin Ballast June 17, 2019 5:01 PM  

Also, as far as I’m aware, a divorce in most courts needs to be approved by both parties. Meaning, you can refuse to grant it. Maybe not everyone is aware of this.

That is a bad idea. It will be forced on you at some point and the more you oppose it the more likely you will get an even worse deal.

It is reprehensible, but welcome to the modern screwed up system.

Blogger Austin Ballast June 17, 2019 5:11 PM  

Vox,

Nice that you can write off anyone who disagrees with you by calling them names. Good way to avoid really digging in.

I married a Christian woman, active in the church we met in, during my late 20s. She was infertile, so we adopted. Raised a group of kids that ended up not being my own, in spite of what I did. (They all went back to their birth family when adults.)

She later nuked the marriage at about 30 years insisting many evil things about me that were not true, including being "controlled".

Yeah, I could have seen a lot of red flags ahead of time even though we both supposedly shared a strong Christian faith, but no one helped me recognize I should run away back then.

What to do? Certainly not naively go ahead with the "marry and take the risk" with no thought.

You are great at picking other people apart, but not so good at truly analyzing the risks and then helping with advice on how to face those risks. Much easier to simply fire into those you disagree with.

You won the relationship lottery, even after following a rough path in your early 20s if I followed your history right. I guess that is the goal: Go off the path early, then come back to it and proclaim how right you are.

I know you don't draw your family in, but I have to bet some factors about your wife made her much less likely to stray, including that you remain an alpha (for all your proclamations otherwise).

Not easy for everyone else and a blanket "man up and marry them women/sluts" is not any better of an answer than running away and whining.

I have no idea what I would tell a young man now. I would at least strongly stress the huge flaws in the modern system, along with the constant whispering in the ears of any woman to go astray especially with financial rewards.

I raised kids, was faithful and now I am completely alone, the very thing my actions were meant to avoid. My direct family is gone from this earth. Finding solid connections is quite difficult today, at least for some of us.

I would even (stupidly) be open to a relationship with a faithful woman at my age, but why would she be available for a relationship. Even the few widows I have directly known are far from faithful (and have the benefit of having someone else to constantly compare you to).

No easy roads. You won't change and may even malign me, but provide answers, not just mudballs.

Blogger M Cephas June 17, 2019 5:12 PM  

C3 sounded like he was giving his reasons for why he decided to become a homosexual.

Blogger Kallmunz June 17, 2019 5:23 PM  

VD wrote:Well obviously these losers have a large space in your heads.

Always nice to see the Gammas contributing.... Why do you think we're trying to change THEIR minds? That's like trying to convince the Ebola to play nicely this time.




Gamma? Ha, good one! Vox, by your own admission you separate the weak men and only except the strong ones, given your proclivities this is a wise choice. This is why you are a leader in a limited sense. A Leader understands that the "weak" man will lay down his life for is beliefs. Jesus picked 12 illiterates, something you would never do. You could never lead an infantry unit. You are much better suited for the Air Force. There is nothing wrong with that, it's just your penchant .

Blogger Austin Ballast June 17, 2019 5:26 PM  

Vox,

Your advice is very generic and not directly tied to keeping a long term marriage going, especially when the wife is not really into the marriage.

Lifting weights will not help many marriages, at least not directly. You could argue it is a mindset, but even that is not likely to be sufficient for many women today who see marriage as a temporary thing and believe that serving a husband is slavery. Those ideas can be far more buried than is clear, making the woman seem great up front. Not much a man can do in that case.

Blogger Doktor Jeep June 17, 2019 5:32 PM  

I sense a disturbance in the adulthood, as if gammas started showing up.

Blogger Balam June 17, 2019 5:35 PM  

@Cabeza de Vaca

I wasn't trying to press you, in particular, for specifics. We're all on this blog because we're looking for truth in a time when truth is declared heresy against the world government. Your post was being used to show the kind of common shoulder shrugging useless aphorisms young men (women too) are given in general and it is a good sign for you that you had some sort of response on resources to turn to. The typical boomer would have blustered some nonsense rather than admit they don't know something.

@Kallmunz
@Austin Ballast

Now that's nihilism. Kallmunz, you do know that Vox has a painstakingly precise guide on how a Gamma can pull himself out of his psychic ditch into Deltahood. To say that he doesn't offer a guide for the low status, knowing that, is to lie. You are very clearly butthurt about something, but a feigned sense of injury and the resulting outrage is not an argument.

Austin, you are asking for personal coaching on an intimate level that costs a lot of time. Anecdotally game and weightlifting have helped the men in many marriages, with or without her.

Blogger Scott June 17, 2019 5:40 PM  

@132 Matt 11: 6

"And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."

Blogger The Observer June 17, 2019 5:43 PM  

But the vast majority, WRT American society, seem perfectly content with the "push them into the river, if they drown, oh well; if they learn to swim, fine"-approach.

One important thing is that throughout history, parents, relatives, friends and even professional matchmakers have all been involved in getting men and women together. People may joke about arranged marriages in India, but even in western civilisation other people have generally been involved in the courtship process from start to end. Evidence has borne out that people generally are pretty awful as sorting through the choices of potential mates on their own; some in this thread have mentioned eventually seeking the opinion of their own relatives as to their potential spouses, and that's but the least that can happen.

Blogger Nate73 June 17, 2019 6:42 PM  

I've met a couple mgtows and while it's true many of them are fatalistic and cowardly, it's not all. I did meet one that said he was a Christian. He wants to get married and have kids, but after several failed relationships and surveying the field he just doesn't see a way forward. He legitimately doesn't know what to do.

I don't know much about the facts and statistics other than the ones people already cited (large divorce rate, most divorces initiated by women). But they matter. The one that comes to mind is the chapter of Tucker Carlson's book where he discusses how more women than men are getting college degrees and how marriages where women out-earn men are more likely to fail. If that's due to hypergamy then it's something the individual man would be hard-pressed to change, if these women who are 5s and want to marry 8s or 9s can be helped to change at all.

Finally in terms of the Bible, 1 Corinthians 7 is relevant to the subject.

Blogger Peter June 17, 2019 6:55 PM  

38 - James Dixon said "The two leading causes of divorce are infidelity and money problems" --

I would argue that the leading cause of divorce is marriage.
I been married for 30 years and have loved the same woman for 30 years (hopefully my wife never finds out about her :) )

The problem with marriage is the civil "State" aspect -- when the sacrament of marriage became the civil legal marriage its where the problems started because it allows the State to interfere in the relationship. I would never advice a young man, or a young woman (and I have 4 kids all marrying ages ) to get involved in civil marriage -- I 100% tell them that monogamy is key, what are the traditional roles of men and women are and that when they find the right person they should make a commitment between themselves and God and don't involve the State. All legal protections that exist due to a civil marriage can be provide thru other legal structures.

As was warned above - there's this issue of common law marriage in 12 states but in all cases this can be dealt with thru other legal documents and agreements signed prior to marriage..Divorce is a multi-billion dollar a year business which is why the legal profession allows it to happen. A fairly standard set to contract documents could theoretically override the negative aspects of marriage and protect both parties.

Blogger OneWingedShark June 17, 2019 7:52 PM  

The Observer wrote:But the vast majority, WRT American society, seem perfectly content with the "push them into the river, if they drown, oh well; if they learn to swim, fine"-approach.

One important thing is that throughout history, parents, relatives, friends and even professional matchmakers have all been involved in getting men and women together. People may joke about arranged marriages in India, but even in western civilisation other people have generally been involved in the courtship process from start to end. Evidence has borne out that people generally are pretty awful as sorting through the choices of potential mates on their own; some in this thread have mentioned eventually seeking the opinion of their own relatives as to their potential spouses, and that's but the least that can happen.

Ouch.
This hurts — precisely because I am absolutely convinced that arranged marriages aren't bad: having the feedback (especially of people divorced from infatuation, etc) is a good thing… but no, can't have that!

For such a immensely important milestone, OF COURSE I would want the help and guidance of my parents/church/community — I KNOW that people are bad about picking!, and I know I am too.

Blogger One Deplorable DT June 17, 2019 8:13 PM  

It's foolish for anyone to advocate MGTOW for all men. It's equally foolish to declare that all men who have adopted MGTOW are cowards. As Vox himself is so fond of pointing out, there is no equality. Not of nature nor nurture nor opportunity. Every man's situation is different. The 20yo who is scared to marry the 18yo church sweetheart with a stable family and good father is perhaps a coward. The 40yo who has had multiple failed relationships with women who seemed good at first but turned out to be huge risks? Not so much.

Whether we're talking about war or marriage, rushing into a situation which will only destroy you while accomplishing absolutely nothing is not courage, it's stupidity. And before anyone counters with "but the children!", children with the wrong woman can just as easily produce soldiers for Satan as for God. Indeed, with the wrong woman the law gives the power to Satan to make your children his own. A man needs to try to find a good woman and form a stable family. He also needs to know the risks and judge the women he pursues wisely.

And yes, all those brave men are absolutely cowards in this context.

If I understand the context correctly C3 was discussing military men who have had their lives destroyed by divorce and now advocate MGTOW. Should they advocate MGTOW? No. They should warn younger men of the risks and the red flags in the hopes of guiding some to stable, life long marriages while saving others from terrible mistakes. Are they cowards for going too far and advocating absolute MGTOW? No. They're literally broken emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. In my book there's a difference between that and cowardice.

@6 - I can understand C3's fear, and I can empathize with his position. However Vox's path is the only way to save Western Civilization.

I don't know if Vox addressed this in the Darkstream or not as I have not had a chance to watch it yet. Having said that: western civilization is not going to be saved by berating individual men for being fearful of marriage. It's like obsessing about the tactics of a skirmish on your border while enemy bombers approach with 500kt warheads. We can debate and finally agree on the correct message to send to young men. And we can push that message relentlessly. And if divorce laws remain the way they are, marriage rates will continue to plummet despite all of our efforts. Thinking otherwise is little different from believing that new immigrant will be a great American if we just hand him a copy of the Constitution.

This is the reality we have, not the one we would wish for. If we want to save western civilization then we need a strategy to change divorce laws and the family court system.

Blogger VD June 17, 2019 8:35 PM  

Good way to avoid really digging in.

I don't give even a quantum of a damn about you.

You are great at picking other people apart, but not so good at truly analyzing the risks and then helping with advice on how to face those risks.

I repeat: I don't give even a quantum of a damn about you. Literally all I expect of people is to not attempt to deceive or annoy me, and many people can't even manage that in their first three communications with me.

Blogger VD June 17, 2019 8:38 PM  

It's equally foolish to declare that all men who have adopted MGTOW are cowards.

That's like saying "not all men who wet their pants and run away crying from the battlefield are cowards."

Blogger Garuna June 17, 2019 8:51 PM  

Getting laid or getting into relationships isn't even that hard. A lot of people exaggerate the problem to justify inaction and quitting. I fuck """feminists""" all the time. Real feminists don't exist. It's just talking points that girls spew because they think they have to. Be playful about it and don't take it seriously. I mean c'mon it's really not that hard.

Blogger One Deplorable DT June 17, 2019 8:53 PM  

@147 - That's like saying "not all men who wet their pants and run away crying from the battlefield are cowards."

Fleeing a battle that you know is going to be lost at great cost to your side is not the same as 'wetting your pants and running away crying.' Sometimes you cede territory or a battle to avoid losing the entire war.

NOTE: I'm drawing a distinction between a man who, given his particular circumstances, determines that marriage and family are not wise for him and a man who flippantly thumbs his nose at marriage then proceeds to tell all other men to do the same.

Blogger Janus June 17, 2019 9:00 PM  

One Deplorable DT wrote:If I understand the context correctly C3 was discussing military men who have had their lives destroyed by divorce and now advocate MGTOW.

No, it was in reference specifically to all the vets who killed themselves because of divorce.

Suicide is the ultimate act of the coward.

Blogger Timothy Brave June 17, 2019 10:55 PM  

Is there any way that the MGTOW horde isn't chock-full of closet homosexuals with an acute psychotic case of the not-gays? It certainly must attract that demographic. Contentedly single men do not sit around and moan about these things, nor do those who are still looking for a decent woman.

It is a movement built upon the total and utter denial of any meaningful circumspection.
There is no good way to slice that.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd June 17, 2019 11:57 PM  

@151, agreed, men who are quietly building lives around following God are respectable, single or not. Men who dance about yelling "Look at me! Look at me going my own way!" are not.

Blogger Garuna June 18, 2019 12:36 AM  

Fleeing a battle that you know is going to be lost at great cost to your side is not the same as 'wetting your pants and running away crying.' Sometimes you cede territory or a battle to avoid losing the entire war.

If you marry a girl from your own race, nation, community, religion, etc., the rate of marriage survival is like 80-90%.

If you quit with 80-90% chance of success, you're literally a pants-wetter.

Blogger OvergrownHobbit June 18, 2019 12:43 AM  

The other books recommended upstream are excellent. Here's one for the men who chose poorly the first time.

https://www.amazon.com/Say-Goodbye-Crazy-Restore-Sanity-ebook/dp/B014W0587S

Blogger Terrific June 18, 2019 1:42 AM  

"If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life,
Never ever make a pretty woman your wife.
From my personal point of view,
Get an ugly girl to marry you!"

Blogger Michael S. June 18, 2019 1:58 AM  

The greatest "man" of the twentieth century was St. Pope John Paul II, Who was single all his life without children. He, did, however, birth many "spiritual children". I am one of them.
God bless, Michael

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 18, 2019 2:11 AM  

Most men make the mistake of going for the most attractive woman they can land, and not paying attention to the far more important qualities that make a woman marriage material.

VD wrote:No one cares what you think looks ridiculous. The point is that some women like them, which is why men do it.
My wife would tell you up and down that she doesn't care, she doesn't really like muscley men. But back in the early 1990s, when the IT industry collapsed, I wound up working in a sawmill for about 9 months, pulling green chain (sorting and stacking boards as they came out of the planer). I was skinny in those days, and I put on about 30 pounds, mostly in the shoulders and biceps.
Let me tell you, she cared. A LOT.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 18, 2019 2:13 AM  

Terrific wrote:"If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life,
Never ever make a pretty woman your wife.
From my personal point of view,
Get an ugly girl to marry you!"

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 18, 2019 2:14 AM  

Michael S. wrote:The greatest "man" of the twentieth century was St. Pope John Paul II
Not even close. Not even similar to true.

Blogger FrankNorman June 18, 2019 2:40 AM  

Some thoughts here:

1) One of the goals of the Marxists is the abolition of traditional marriages and families. Their intended destination seems to be a society (if it could be called that) in which all children are conceived in one-night-stands, and are raised 100% by the State. So no, the problems we are seeing didn't just happen, in the words of Scripture: "an enemy has done this".

2) Vox Day has written copiously on how men should go about keeping the loyalty of women, largely through an applied understanding of their innate psychology. But of course not everyone is aware of this. To a newcomer, Vox may well come across as being like a WW1 general, demanding that other men climb out of the trenches to be mowed down by machine-guns, while he himself sits comfortably in his tent sipping tea.

3) Such tea-sipping armchair generals do exist out there. Large numbers of young men are being set up for failure, sometimes on purpose. To continue the war metaphor, some of those officers are really working for the enemy.

4) "Worst-case scenario" type stories, taken in isolation, give a distorted picture. Just because something could happen doesn't mean it inevitably will - especially not if the risks are understood, and measures taken to mitigate them.

5) One of the recurring problems in current society is power without responsibility.
Example: women having all the rights and freedoms of adults, but no more accountability for their actions than if they were still small children.

Blogger Paul M June 18, 2019 3:39 AM  

James Dixon wrote:The odds aren't anywhere near as bad as people claim. Even if the divorce rate is 50% (the often quoted figure) that means that half of all marriages don't end in divorce.

No, it means that half of all marriages haven't ended in divorce yet, it doesn't mean that more than half of all marriages won't eventually end in divorce. Just because more than half the people that have ever been alive are alive today dos not mean that you have a less than 50/50 chance of ever dying.

To get the true figure, you need to compare marriages ending in divorce vs marriages ending for other reasons (including death of a spouse). Of course, it's pretty much impossible to get this figure for the current cohort.

What is perhaps more gettable is average length of a *first* marriage. And that figure is pretty grim.

Blogger Станислав Бартошевич June 18, 2019 4:08 AM  

@131
"For a philosophy that's supposedly dedicated to improving men's lives, MGTOW has convinced men that true happiness is found by avoiding the possibility of pain. This is fear of pain and or fear of failure. Ergo, MGTOW are cowards because they're allowing fear(s) to dictate their lives."

Really? While I may be not sufficiently familiar with MGTOW writings, may this have something to do with "success" currently being defined, including the definitions provided by posters in this very thread, as a state where a man (a)has all of the responsibility and none of the rights; (b)is expected to make a massive investment without even an expectation of getting anything in return ever; (c)specifically and pointedly not owed anything that may have possibly softened the impact of (a) and (b), even as little and meaningless as kind words, by the society regardless of his contributions to the society.

Blogger VD June 18, 2019 11:01 AM  

To a newcomer, Vox may well come across as being like a WW1 general, demanding that other men climb out of the trenches to be mowed down by machine-guns, while he himself sits comfortably in his tent sipping tea.

Who gives a quantum of a damn what some ignorant, clueless newcomers think? The information is there.

Blogger Uncle Maffoo June 18, 2019 11:26 AM  

EK wrote:@55 Thanks for the advice. So to learn game and to be ready for finding a future wife I do have to have some short flings in order to up my skills, so to speak? I'm tired of having 1+ year long relationships that fizzle out.

If your relationships just "fizzle out," then it's likely that you haven't fully decided what it is you really want, your firm requirements, non-negotiables, deal-breakers, etc., and/or you haven't developed the "Frame" to enforce those things ruthlessly. So yes, try some short flings to develop your skills and help clarify what you will & will not tolerate. Get as comfortable with rejecting women as they are with rejecting you (and if you haven't noticed, they are very comfortable). But you also need to be improving yourself in all facets in the meantime, otherwise you'll look like the neckbeard from the "pointy elbows would not bang" meme.

Blogger Andrew F June 18, 2019 11:30 AM  

I wish you well on your discernment and commend you for being open to whatever path God has called you to. If it is helpful, my wife and I were discerning being a priest/nun before we started dating. We have been married happily for over 10 years and have our 4th child on the way. One thing that I learned in the discernment process is that many of the virtues and attributes that help you to be a good priest also help you to be a good husband and father. Work on developing your prayer life, discipline, courage and healthy habits. God Bless and be patient.

-Andrew

Blogger EK June 18, 2019 2:15 PM  

@164 Yessir, understandable. I'm working on bettering myself physically and mentally. I'll heed your advice. Thank you Uncle.

Blogger Damelon Brinn June 18, 2019 2:23 PM  

C3 sounded like he was giving his reasons for why he decided to become a homosexual.

If you hang out in places MGTOWs frequent, you will soon see nearby recommendations that men just go gay, or these days marry a trap/tranny. This is not a coincidence.

Blogger Andrew F June 18, 2019 2:42 PM  

MGTOW = Men Grabbing Their Own Wang
I'm just calling it as I see it.

Blogger Daniel June 18, 2019 3:30 PM  

And yet some idiots dates and marries women who say "I do not want children"
Useless material. Discard and move on.

Blogger Daniel June 18, 2019 3:38 PM  

My wife once tried to hurt me badly, but divorve was always off the tabke.
That's how it should be

Blogger Daniel June 18, 2019 4:03 PM  

In Argentina ona party can just file divorce and that's it.
Nothing the other party can do. Here things are bad too

Blogger Daniel June 18, 2019 9:22 PM  

MGTOW can be ok if temporary

Blogger Colonel Blimp June 20, 2019 1:08 PM  

This is what fence sitting soccer moms do on abortion Vox. Instead of rightfully following the Christian instinct to no abortion they quickly consider the popular alternative side and the benefits of status and acceptance and the first thing they say is but what about the life of the mother or rape?? They never actually look at the figures that show it's such an insignificant part of the equation that all they're doing is aiding the enemy by muddling the point.

But this is essentially what American politics has been the last 30-40 years don't look at the big issue just focus on men in dresses

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