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Monday, July 08, 2019

Ditching VISA and Mastercard

Whether Venezuela follows through on this or not, I would expect other countries to do so in the not-too-distant future. The US-based payment systems are no longer reliable.
The central bank of Venezuela will develop an independent national payment system to get rid of international giants Visa and Mastercard in response to US sanctions, according to local media citing the regulator.

The document, which also separately mentions multi-national debit card service Maestro owned by Mastercard, orders a suspension of debit card operations starting November 2019 and payments via credit cards from January 2020.

The joint order was reportedly issued on May 16 by the central bank and Superintendency of the Institutions of the Banking Sector of Venezuela (SUDEBAN), responsible for ensuring the country’s banks comply with local regulations. It instructs the banks to create a “sovereign” system to process financial operations that will use clients’ biometric data.
The attempts to exert control over who can, and who cannot, utilize the monetary system is transforming the Internet economy into something resembling a South American economy, with all the uncertainty and chaos that one would expect.

And the current system is falling apart anyhow. When Deutsche Bank is laying off 18,000 people around the world, that's a pretty strong indication that change is coming.
When traditionally stable institutions like Deutsche Bank find themselves in trouble, it’s a signal that the world’s financial system will face big problems down the road, legendary investor Jim Rogers has told RT.

On Monday, the German multinational investment bank –and the world’s 15th largest bank by total assets– started cutting thousands of jobs as part of an $8.3 billion overhaul announced one day earlier. The bank’s workforce is set to be reduced by 18,000 to around 74,000 employees by 2022, as Deutsche Bank scraps its global equities and trading operations. The move has already impacted the bank’s shares, which started to fall after initial 4 percent gains on Monday.

“The financial system is in trouble and this is just one sign of what is going on. This has happened in previous financial problems in the 1930s or the 1960s or the 1990s,” Rogers said in a phone interview with RT. He explained that central banks around the globe drove interest rates “to crazy levels,” and now we have to pay the price for that.

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64 Comments:

Blogger wahr01 July 08, 2019 9:31 AM  

Peter Zeihan talks about the fundamentals-driven collapse of the EU credit markets and central banking systems.

His state of the economy series delivered to heartland trade and economic development groups are must watches to those interested.

Blogger nbfdmd July 08, 2019 9:35 AM  

This is ridiculous. A low IQ people can't manage their own payment system. It'll be immediately corrupted.

Blogger TMLutas July 08, 2019 9:41 AM  

Yup, change is coming. But I wouldn't be so certain that it's going to be anything friendly to the Venezuelan government. People use international payment systems because they're better than the local alternatives. Turning Venezuela into a company town where you're forced to use the highly inflationary company scrip backs people into a corner.

That's a high risk strategy for a government.

Blogger Nate July 08, 2019 9:42 AM  

corrupted? what you fail to grasp is that local corruption is better than foreign domination.

Blogger Lushtree July 08, 2019 9:50 AM  

I would almost agree with you, except that I would not exactly call the people in charge of the banks 'local'. They are just about as foriegn as the Chinese, and probably hate us more.

Blogger nbfdmd July 08, 2019 9:50 AM  

@4: The South American countries, especially Venezuela, are a literal case study in how local corruption can fuck up a country. I'm sorry this offends your sensibilities Nancy, but if you have average IQs of less than 90, you don't get nice things. If Venezuela wants a homegrown banking system, they can start by engaging in a multi-generation program of eugenics. Otherwise, they're fucked.

Furthermore, what YOU also fail to grasp is that all of these shithole countries are being propped up by the West. Without America, countries like Venezuela wouldn't be able to keep the lights on.

Blogger Daniel July 08, 2019 9:56 AM  

You fail to grasp that the converged globalist services are already designed corrupted.

"I'll just eat my crap sandwich because dummies may poop on a clean one" is illogical.

Blogger JG July 08, 2019 10:00 AM  

US domination of the world's financial markets is coming to an end and a new regime will have to be created from the chaos.

What that new regime will be, I have no idea. But it would probably be prudent to have some gold and silver stashed away for the chaotic time between the destruction of the old and the building of the new.

Blogger Rabid Ratel July 08, 2019 10:02 AM  

@Nate - there will also be less corruption once the international banking system is removed from Venezuela.

@TMLutas - A large portion of that inflation is imported from outside, so getting rid of one of the causes of inflation will tend to lower the inflation rate. Remember, a country is unlike a company town in scale, so forcing people to use internal resources instead of importing those resources is actually a good thing for the economy.

Blogger Wraithburn July 08, 2019 10:04 AM  

Sounds rather like Bronze Age history. When people get oppressed too long, they flee. The global banksters are going to find themselves hemorrhaging clients.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd July 08, 2019 10:05 AM  

nbfdmd wrote:This is ridiculous. A low IQ people can't manage their own payment system. It'll be immediately corrupted.

Of course: they wouldn't, couldn't, have it any other way. Corrupted may well be better than converged. @7 nailed it.

Blogger VD July 08, 2019 10:24 AM  

But just because the Jews shouldn't be running the show, doesn't mean the 85 club would be any better.

You're the moron here. It's not about what is optimal. It's about people wanting to control their own destiny. Even children with low IQs don't like being told what to do. And lots of people prefer the barbarian life.

Whether they can manage it successfully or not is irrelevant. It's their call. Not yours and not mine.

Blogger Damelon Brinn July 08, 2019 10:40 AM  

It'll be immediately corrupted.

Probably. But it will be theirs.

I've started swinging by the bank and getting cash when I go shopping. My bank is local and right next to the farm store, so it's pretty convenient. No one needs a record of my chicken feed purchases.

Blogger Critias July 08, 2019 10:50 AM  


nbfdmd: "Furthermore, what YOU also fail to grasp is that all of these shithole countries are being propped up by the West. Without America, countries like Venezuela wouldn't be able to keep the lights on."


"After Hugo Chávez was first elected President of Venezuela by a landslide in 1998, the South American country began to reassert sovereignty over its oil reserves. This action challenged the comfortable position held by U.S. economic interests for the better part of a century. The Chávez administration overturned the privatization of the state-owned oil company PDVSA, raising royalties for foreign firms and eventually doubling the country's GDP"
From Wikipedia.

Western countries propping them up is not out of charity, it's like the welfare state trying to get people dependent on the government. The bottom line is the US wants it's hand on the oil again. Sanctions, population degradation, revolution to install a new favorable government. We don't know if they can run their own monetary system because the (((West))) will not leave them alone. And great job with your $20+ trillion debt from a 95 average IQ society.

Blogger Rabid Ratel July 08, 2019 11:02 AM  

nbfdmd wrote:
I never said they didn't have the RIGHT to do it, dumb fuck. I said it wouldn't work as intended.


It doesn't matter either way. The country is still theirs to fuck up or make prosper. It is neither right nor proper for any other government to poke their fingers in Venezuela's business. What part of Sovereign do you have problems with?

Blogger Nate July 08, 2019 11:17 AM  

'I never said they didn't have the RIGHT to do it, dumb fuck. I said it wouldn't work as intended. '

Are ya done making an idiot of yourself yet? Or would you like to get your teeth kicked in some more?

personally I'm hoping for the latter. Look sugartits... these low IQ people don't give a damn if it works. You think they would sell their souls for your fancy systems and conveniences. You're wrong.

Not long ago a bunch of idiot progressives in the Methodist church threatened the africans with pulling their financial support if the africans didn't change their stance on homosexual sin.

The africans told them to fuck off.

They would rather walk 2 miles every morning for a bucket of water to wash clothes in than to have indoor plumbing and tell liberal lies.

They may be dumb and they may be corrupt... but America could learn a lot from these dumb people about the value of local control and self-rule.

Blogger Lazarus July 08, 2019 11:19 AM  

A somewhat similar story about fiscal sovereignty appeared a couple of weeks ago.

Europe Won't Admit The Mini-BOTs Are Coming

Italy is in serious trouble financially. This is virtually common knowledge at this point. What isn’t common knowledge is its Euroskeptic government led by Lega’s Matteo Salvini and Five Star Movement’s Luigi Di Maio are preparing an assault on the foundation of the European Union itself to save Italy.

And that assault comes with the most innocuous name. Mini-BOT. Mini-BOTs were originally the idea of former Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis to assist Greece get out of the stranglehold placed on it by the euro.

What is a mini-BOT? It is a small denomination (mini) Bill of Treasury (BOT) that can be issued by, in this case, the Italian government to act as a domestic currency for settling government debts, paying taxes, etc.

It would be a parallel currency which could circulate freely domestically at a discount to the euro which would work as a medium of exchange to reflect the reality of the Italian economy better than the euro does. ......The mini-BOT seeks to reverse this process by allowing the Italian treasury to issue them as interest-bearing small bills which can be used to purchase goods and services in the Italian market but which will also be redeemable to pay for government services and taxes.


The concept is from Yanis Varoufakis and was meant as a way to save the Euro. Salvini & co. are getting ready to use it to break the Euro stranglehold.

Blogger Crew July 08, 2019 11:20 AM  

#LearnToCode!

Blogger Tars Tarkas July 08, 2019 11:22 AM  

Critias wrote:The bottom line is the US wants it's hand on the oil again.

Venezuela's oil is a nice talking point, but mostly not true. Venezuela's oil production peaked a long time ago. Though, TBH, I don't know to what degree the peak was caused by geology vs above ground factors. What they have is not oil in the traditional sense. Not only is it extremely expensive to produce, but there is no refining capacity for it.
Without foreign investment, all those tarsands will stay right where they are.
It is a lot easier to maintain something than to build it.

Blogger sammibandit July 08, 2019 11:27 AM  

Here we have filet of neoliberal au jus served with confit of crow.

Blogger Remo - Vile Faceless Minion #99 July 08, 2019 11:28 AM  

And cue the introduction of Unionpay - the Chinese system that displaced Visa/Mastercard in China after they had finished copying the methodology and code for the system. Unionpay is of course ubiquitous in China, but also is prevalent in Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, Korea and is rivaling Visa/MC in many other places. Now the Unionpay folks are literally being handed an opportunity to invade and capture the South American and later Latin American market? And we're starting off with the largest oil producer? Yeah ... I think China will be very VERY interested in helping them out with a new payment system that they just happen to have ready, tested, waiting and conveniently on the shelf.

Blogger VD July 08, 2019 11:30 AM  

You're done here, nbfdmd. Banned for lying.

Blogger J Van Stry July 08, 2019 11:49 AM  

I see that last bit in the quote about interest rates going to 'crazy levels'.

Now please excuse me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they were complaining when interested rates were high.

I get the feeling that they're upset because they're losing money because they feel rates are too low and want to do what they can to force them higher.

(And why is the default accusation always that Americans want other people's oil? Even when we're currently a leading exporter once again?)

Blogger Dan in Georgia July 08, 2019 11:51 AM  

How about that. Vox just mentioned in this morning’s Darkstream that most Italians still have some Liras left and want to boot the Euro. Give the people a choice and see what happens.

Blogger J.M. July 08, 2019 11:51 AM  

Critias wrote:"After Hugo Chávez was first elected President of Venezuela by a landslide in 1998, the South American country began to reassert sovereignty over its oil reserves. This action challenged the comfortable position held by U.S. economic interests for the better part of a century. The Chávez administration overturned the privatization of the state-owned oil company PDVSA, raising royalties for foreign firms and eventually doubling the country's GDP"

From Wikipedia.

Western countries propping them up is not out of charity, it's like the welfare state trying to get people dependent on the government. The bottom line is the US wants it's hand on the oil again. Sanctions, population degradation, revolution to install a new favorable government. We don't know if they can run their own monetary system because the (((West))) will not leave them alone. And great job with your $20+ trillion debt from a 95 average IQ society.


It's really funny how americans are so fond of talking about things they wouldn't bother to know a thing about. First off, Venezuela's oil was nationalized IN THE 70s by Carlos Andrés Pérez, not by Hugo Chávez. Wikipedia's version of history is the one straight from the commies horse's propaganda, not a historical fact. The one thing Chávez did was to turn an autonomous GOVERNMENT OWNED COMPANY into his personal Estate, another hyper-bureaucratic monstrosity whose main goal was to provide positions for his cronies and boys from the inner city, for marketing purposes of course.

Moreover in case you haven't noticed, Venezuela needs more the West than the West needs Venezuela. Even the US DOESN'T NEED Venezuela, the US is a net exporter of oil and gas. Without US (or any other country refining capabilities), Venezuela's tar sands are next to useless.

Blogger Nostromo July 08, 2019 11:51 AM  

Haven't used a credit card since I got one from those nice people at the kiosk on campus. 2 years later and a whole lot wiser, I got shed of those fleas, and never let them back. I had to pre on the electric fence to learn, but learn I did.

Blogger Jack Amok July 08, 2019 11:53 AM  

Bankers are such idiots. They're in a situation where all they have to do is not get greedy and they'll have perpetual cash flow for near-zero effort. Skim a percent or two off every transaction, close up shop at 3, and hit the links. But they just can't help themselves, can they?

Blogger WordsFromTheCrucible July 08, 2019 11:54 AM  

Which is more corrupt: the existing multi-nat corpse, or something that is at least run nationally, which, even if corrupted locally, is far less likely to be predatory to their own people or economy than a multi-national corporation? Globalisation is not only not for everyone - it is literally for no-one, except the few whom it profits.
Good for them.

Blogger Harris July 08, 2019 11:54 AM  

The aggregation of banks bothered me greatly after the dot.com collapse in 2001. It's only gotten worse since then.

Blogger J.M. July 08, 2019 12:03 PM  

VD wrote:But just because the Jews shouldn't be running the show, doesn't mean the 85 club would be any better.

You're the moron here. It's not about what is optimal. It's about people wanting to control their own destiny. Even children with low IQs don't like being told what to do. And lots of people prefer the barbarian life.

Whether they can manage it successfully or not is irrelevant. It's their call. Not yours and not mine.


The fact that it's their call doesn't make it automatically a good thing. Most Venezuelans have voted with their feet AGAINST the regime. I understand it's not the responsability of the US or anyone else intervene but let's not fool ourselves thinking any of Venezuela's government actions are somehow the will of the people or that they are even well intentioned, that's just pure nonsense. The only thing these measures will accomplish is to stifle even more the populace and close the fences. They are on their way to be a new and improved Cuba. But again that's a Venezuelan (or Hispanic) problem to solve, not a Western one (or russian or chinese for that matter).

And for the record I agree with your point: the more converged, the less reliable the western based services become, hence, converged western banking == unreliable and politicized services. But it doesn't make venezuelan based service (or even Chinese ones) good alternatives...or in the case of Venezuela even competent ones. And before you say that's the will of the people, more than 7 million people have fled Venezuela (almost one in four) and millions more are expected to escape or at least try to make it to neighbouring countries...so you better hurry up with that wall.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 July 08, 2019 12:12 PM  

Still not sure why Visa and Mastercard are your only options for Debit cards these days.

Blogger wreckage July 08, 2019 12:12 PM  

It would be fine if the Western credit and payment systems just said "OK, we're blind. Use the service. We don't care who you are." But they won't. Because of exactly the phenomenon that VD calls convergence, after Mill:

"This is the highest abstract standard of social and distributive justice; towards which all institutions, and the efforts of all virtuous citizens, should be made in the utmost degree to converge."

This is of course an absurd and destructive notion.

Blogger Tars Tarkas July 08, 2019 12:21 PM  

J Van Stry wrote:And why is the default accusation always that Americans want other people's oil? Even when we're currently a leading exporter once again?)
We are a net importer of oil.

Blogger Sherlock July 08, 2019 12:23 PM  

It's off topic, but why import what we export? I know it's more complicated than "we" but still... It makes no sense to ship what you can sell here, especially if you're importing more of it.

Blogger Harris July 08, 2019 12:25 PM  

VD wrote:But just because the Jews shouldn't be running the show, doesn't mean the 85 club would be any better.

You're the moron here. It's not about what is optimal. It's about people wanting to control their own destiny. Even children with low IQs don't like being told what to do. And lots of people prefer the barbarian life.

Whether they can manage it successfully or not is irrelevant. It's their call. Not yours and not mine.


I have a former sister-in-law who has been categorized as a minor her entire life because of low IQ. Her father, my ex-father-in-law just died, and her sisters, one in particular, has tried to step in and take over. But the low IQ sister, after being the lady of the house since her mother's death in 1992, resents her sister trying to force her to give up her independence.

While I'm no longer married to her sister, my former sister-in-law calls me all the time to complain about her sisters. I mostly stay out of it and just listen to her complaints. My comments are limited to simply stating that her sisters have her best interest at heart, and my son and daughter have stepped in to be a part of the discussions. But is illustrative of the comment Voxday made above about even low IQ people valuing their autonomy. I'm all for allowing people as much freedom and autonomy as possible.

Blogger DeepThought July 08, 2019 12:49 PM  

If you want to know why nations, even allies, are trying to escape the American monetary system, look at how we treat allies who are not towing the line.

We use our system to punish their economy. Nations see this and realize they need an alternative. The US is utterly clueless.

Blogger DeepThought July 08, 2019 12:52 PM  

We used Dave Ramsey's system to get us out of debt about a decade ago. We have one credit card, we use for travel and pay it off immediately.

We buy everything in cash and that includes our cars. We save up for everything. I highly recommend people getting out of debt. Freedom must be earned.

Blogger Doktor Jeep July 08, 2019 12:53 PM  

Maybe it will be duly recognized that the best defense against a "global" bank collapse is to have national banks.

Things are not looking good for globalists. But the media will use this to make the NPCs think everything is in a recession while US job and growth numbers remain positive. This is why I hope Constitution 2.0 has some revisions of the first amendment.

Blogger peacefulposter July 08, 2019 12:59 PM  

@17 Lazarus - What is a mini-BOT? It is a small denomination (mini) Bill of Treasury (BOT) that can be issued by, in this case, the Italian government to act as a domestic currency for settling government debts, paying taxes, etc.

This sounds like it was inspired by MMT. If nothing else, it will be an interesting experiment.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 08, 2019 1:11 PM  

Mini-BOTs are lira under another name. Bearing interest evades theEU rules against national currencies, and making them legal tender for taxes and fees makes them a national currency. Once the system is fully in place, they can replace the Euro at very short notice.

Blogger Roman Daoist July 08, 2019 1:15 PM  

The concept of dispersion of the competitive advantage of complex societies goes like this.

1. You're awesome. For whatever reason, you're awesome.
2. Others notice you're awesome.
3. You open up to the world, sending your people out, letting other people in. So cosmopolitan!
4. The others are generally dumber than you because you're the awesome one.
5. You sell your tools and techniques to others, because you have the awesome stuff others want.
6. Others learn your skills.
7. You, having absorbed dumber people than yourself, get a little dumber.
8. The dumber, having absorbed your tools and techniques, get a little smarter.
9. You're doing a little less awesome stuff now, but are prouder than ever.
10. You start telling people what they should do instead of just doing awesome things yourself.
11. Others, seeing that you're not quite so awesome nowadays, question why they ever thought you were.
12. You push harder because, damn it, you're awesome! (You just might need to tell them again.)
13. People start making a point of keeping you at arms length, 'cos you're kind of, getting annoying.
14. Venezuela makes plans to develop there own payments system.

Blogger Nate July 08, 2019 1:16 PM  

"We are a net importer of oil."

no. we are not. we are an net exporter. your googlefu is woeful. fix that.

Blogger Tars Tarkas July 08, 2019 1:21 PM  

Nate wrote:no. we are not. we are an net exporter. your googlefu is woeful. fix that.

We produce barely 11Mb/d and use over 20Mb/d. That is from the EIA.

We are a large net importer of oil. What is confusing people is that we export a lot of finished motor gasoline. This is because of the massive increase of extremely light petroleum. So we are a net exporter of finished motor gasoline, not crude oil. We import more oil than most other countries use.

Blogger Nate July 08, 2019 1:24 PM  

Tars. Shut up.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-06/u-s-becomes-a-net-oil-exporter-for-the-first-time-in-75-years

Blogger Sherlock July 08, 2019 1:31 PM  

Not to be a jerk, but, from the article you linked to: "Given the volatility in weekly data, the U.S. will likely remain a small net importer most of the time."

Blogger Longtime Lurker July 08, 2019 1:52 PM  

The United States is a net importer of crude oil. That's a fact.

Weekly U.S. Crude Oil Import Data Here: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=WCRIMUS2&f=W


Weekly U.S. Crude Oil Export Data Here: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=WCREXUS2&f=W

But we are net exporter of everything else in the oil and gas sector: NGLs, refined products, LPG, natural gas, refined products.

The rise of the United States as an oil and gas export powerhouse is well underway.

All Putin and the Ayatollahs can do is take notes and gawk.

Blogger Longtime Lurker July 08, 2019 1:54 PM  

@44: Nate, EIA says you have to wait until 2020 before your wish comes true.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-01-20/u-s-will-be-net-exporter-of-oil-in-2020-thanks-in-part-to-opec

Blogger Tars Tarkas July 08, 2019 1:54 PM  

@44 Nate, you're a retard

US produces 11Mb/d
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=38992

The US consumes 20.5Mb/d of oil in 2018
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=33&t=6

20.5 is larger than 11.

Blogger Tars Tarkas July 08, 2019 2:14 PM  

Longtime Lurker wrote:The rise of the United States as an oil and gas export powerhouse is well underway.

This is going to be relatively short lived. It's hard to compare Saudi Arabia, Iran and Iraq to the US. They have large conventional fields with low costs and very high EROI yields, while the bulk of US oil is coming from expensive low EROI sources. It's hard to come across real numbers, but there has been a lot of negative cash flow statements from the shale producers. Who knows if they are actually losing or making money, but they likely are not going to be producing for a long time. The wells are known to peak out very quickly (like a year).
The entire build up of the US oil production spike has been during bubblenomics and historically retarded interest rates. None of these fields were discovered recently, nor is the technology that new. Cheap capital is likely what allowed all these plays to be produced.

Blogger S1AL July 08, 2019 2:21 PM  

Crude oil =/= petroleum products.

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/PET_MOVE_IMPCUS_A2_NUS_EPC0_IM0_MBBLPD_A.htm

You're comparing bananas to... I dunno, banana smoothies. But your numbers are wrong. Nate is correct.

Blogger Longtime Lurker July 08, 2019 2:33 PM  

@49: That prediction might come true under certain circumstances (low oil prices, high money prices), but not under others (high oil prices and low money prices).

To the extent that smaller independents - which dominate shale production - become financially stressed is the extent to which larger, better capitalized companies will go on shopping sprees.

Upstream shale could be poised for major consolidation. Or not.

Blogger Tars Tarkas July 08, 2019 3:00 PM  

S1AL wrote:You're comparing bananas to... I dunno, banana smoothies. But your numbers are wrong. Nate is correct.

The US is a net importer 2.34Mb/d of oil/petroleum products.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=727&t=6

This is using 2018 numbers so things might be a bit better this year, but I guess we'll see. But also, even as a net exporter we won't necessarily be independent. We could be producing a great deal of oil we cannot use and have to import the oil that we can use. All oil is not the same.
A lot of the oil we are producing is extremely light. I know we can break heavier oils into lighter oils, but I don't think we can do that the other way around.
There is the refinery gains, ethanol and whatever else they are counting, but it still lists a 2.34Mb/d net import.

Blogger S1AL July 08, 2019 3:10 PM  

2018, yeah. There's some debate about what will happen this year, but in short-term we're a net exporter. Regardless, simple parity is an enormous improvement in the situation. Quibbling over +/-5% is silly.

Blogger Longtime Lurker July 08, 2019 3:18 PM  

Take refined products out of the calculation, and the United States imported a net 6.664 million barrels of crude oil per day during April 2019. And that includes rising amounts of Russian crude oil.

Blogger Brett baker July 08, 2019 3:27 PM  

You don't know much about the economic history of Latin America.

Blogger cloom July 08, 2019 3:49 PM  

Venezuela had immigration battles with illegals flooding in from Columbia and Brazil over decades, plus legal on/off immigration policies from USA and Europe. The national identities conflicted, Mestizos and various nations of whites, I read. It is a complicated history. Maybe that @41 reference, in some ways, applies to the rise and fall of Venezuela compared to its neighbours, as low IQ people were attracted to the awesomeness and tipped the balance away from awesomeness.

Blogger WordsFromTheCrucible July 08, 2019 4:17 PM  

That is not relevant to my point.

Blogger rumpole5 July 08, 2019 6:23 PM  

This report raises many interesting questions. Firstly will we, the USA (productive) citizenry, be better off if the international economic and payment system collapses? Are we being drained or supplied by the present system? If we are being drained won't everyone here (except the tiny elite who have been selling the rest of us out for bribes for decades) be better off? If there is no way to pay the foreign workforce and transport the foreign produced manufactured goods back to the USA to sell, won't big companies consider bringing the production back to the USA, USA territories and immediate neighbors?

Blogger Ford Prefect July 08, 2019 8:36 PM  

@21: I have seen UnionPay accepted at Staples here in Winnipeg (Canada). Wasn't certain what it was until your post, so thank-you for the info.

Blogger damaris.tighe July 09, 2019 12:19 AM  

Good on the Venezuelans. I too hope this is a trend.
Mastercard et al are more woker than any petty leftist and are equipping the global south with global ID cards (and mastercard debts) for their journey north.

Blogger damaris.tighe July 09, 2019 12:36 AM  

wreckage wrote:
Mill:
"This is the highest abstract standard of social and distributive justice; towards which all institutions, and the efforts of all virtuous citizens, should be made in the utmost degree to converge."


"should be made", eh.

Blogger SciVo July 09, 2019 7:01 AM  

rumpole5 wrote:Firstly will we, the USA (productive) citizenry, be better off if the international economic and payment system collapses? Are we being drained or supplied by the present system?

It is possible to be both drained in the whole and supplied in the specifics, so that the short-run (and even medium-run) adjustments could be quite painful. I consider this likely.

Blogger TMLutas July 10, 2019 11:41 AM  

@Nate -4: A payments system is about reducing loss to the economic system so everybody can get food and the other necessities of life. Corruption stops that from happening. Foreign domination may or may not stop it but usually it doesn't. Foreign domination is just humiliation usually.

@Daniel - 7: Objectively, you can have people get hungry in both local and international payment systems. But the international ones tend to offer debt forgiveness before you hit the point of mass starvation and running for the border. The local systems don't seem to be as well calibrated in their corruption.

Again, change is coming. It's just unlikely to be change in this particular direction. It's more likely to e a multi-currency future with local currencies and local payment options operating in competition.

@Rabid Ratel - 9: Your idea of imported inflation might have some weight if Venezuela hadn't also been busy collapsing domestic production with its land seizures and redistribution from the competent to the incompetent. When there's no food to be had locally, you import or die or flee to where there's food. Venezuelans are fleeing.

Blogger Daniel July 12, 2019 2:29 PM  

Most high iq venezuelans already fled

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