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Thursday, August 22, 2019

Debt jubilee: step one

The God-Emperor sets a few veterans free from the debt-vampires:
President Trump has announced a policy directive to the U.S. Department of Education to immediately facilitate the discharge of federal student loan debt for any veteran permanently disabled as part of their military service.
It's a good start. The non-disabled vets should be next, followed by the unemployed. All student loan debt should be eventually discharged and all student loans should forbidden by state and federal law. They are intrinsically predatory and accomplish nothing except inflating the cost of higher education.

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237 Comments:

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Blogger Dos Voltz August 22, 2019 8:05 AM  

I thought it very odd when I learned that student debt was the the only debt (or perhaps one of very few) that could not be discharged even through the bankruptcy laws.

Hmmm. Seems the (((professorial))) class is a very special class indeed.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 22, 2019 8:05 AM  

I was reading some posts on this wonderful move, and there are still some whiny little bitch maids screaming orange man bad, he doesn't care about veterans, etc.

TDS is a serious disease.

Blogger Ziggy Sakalauskas August 22, 2019 8:05 AM  

Great news. The new epoch is swiftly coming into full swing, the Controllers see the writing on the wall.

Blogger #7139 August 22, 2019 8:10 AM  

The God-Emperor is full of mercy and compassion.

Blogger Nation-Deprived August 22, 2019 8:11 AM  

An admirably smart first move by the good President. I bet Bernie is boiling right now.

Blogger Stilicho August 22, 2019 8:15 AM  

I read an article yesterday:60% of the $1.5 Trillion in student debt is distressed debt for one reason or another. 10% in outright default, 20% in deferment, and 30% in an income-based repayment plan (which means most will never be repaid in full).

Blogger Mr.MantraMan August 22, 2019 8:17 AM  

I suppose Col. Kurt is having a Boomerfit right about now, but on this I agree with the GE and not the one Boomer I view as righteous.

Blogger Nate August 22, 2019 8:18 AM  

this is a great move. now he needs to do it for everyone.

Blogger Stilicho August 22, 2019 8:22 AM  

Today, we consider the old apprenticeship system draconian and harsh. Case law has many examplesof apprentices running awayfrom then being forcibly returned to serve out their time with harsh masters. Yet even though such apprentices had to serve a set number of years, mostly for room, board, and training, at the end, they had an occupation and we're free of further obligation. Today, we give "apprentices" more leisure, but saddle them with ridiculous levels of debt many will not be able to pay in return for mostly worthless degrees.

Blogger ScottC August 22, 2019 8:25 AM  

Most student loans won't be paid off.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 22, 2019 8:29 AM  

"They are intrinsically predatory and accomplish nothing except inflating the cost of higher education."

Nutshell.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 22, 2019 8:31 AM  

"what is that ..all of 10 people that would benefit. Another lame ass token gesture that gets tons of media coverage but moves the needle little. how about something to do with immigration or internet censorship."

One step forward.

Move the ratchet.

"you are missing the point. It is supposed to be extremely limited because the media overage is what matters first and foremost, not actually helping ppl with their debts"

Your reaction to a win is "WAAAAAH IT WASN'T A BIG ENOUGH WIN AND POLITICSBLAHBLAH".

Shut up and sit down you flaming defeatwhore.

Blogger Whitecloak August 22, 2019 8:34 AM  

Excellent. May the trend spread. Usurious loans such as these should never have been made.

May these veterans find blessing in the loss of a great mental and material burden.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 22, 2019 8:37 AM  

Hey there little bitch unknown, it's 25,000 100% disabled veterans that received forgiveness. 750 million plus in student loan debt. Go fuck yourself. There are the guys in wheelchairs missing limbs and with PTSD. A close friend of mine just recieved it. He ran on to a road in Anbar Province and dragged his wounded buddy off the road while rounds were whipping past his head. He earned debt forgiveness.

Kiss my ass.

Blogger ZhukovG August 22, 2019 8:38 AM  

@Azure Amaranthine: Well said, I have nothing to add.

Ad Victoriam, Deo Vindice, Ave Caesar Trump!

Blogger VD August 22, 2019 8:41 AM  

You're banned, Unknown. Go away now.

Blogger Steve Sky August 22, 2019 8:49 AM  

@Dos Voltz. The reason for that is because Law students were going thru college, financed totally via student loans. They'd then graduate, declare bankruptcy, and enter life debt free.

Quite a nice scam, with other students taking note, until the banks got the Gov't to eliminate that "loophole".

Blogger Gettimothy August 22, 2019 8:51 AM  

@4 "The God-Emperor is full of mercy and compassion."

He talks to God. https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/08/21/snicker-president-trump-on-china-i-am-the-chosen-one-media-goes-bananas/

Blogger Mr.MantraMan August 22, 2019 8:55 AM  

My old boss financed his crazy daughter's Ivy indoctrination in part by refing the house, we laughed at him but I figure he eventually just let them have the POS shack then went off with his retirement check to live in another shack somewhere.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 22, 2019 8:55 AM  

Sorry Gettimothy, have to one up you here.

https://babylonbee.com/news/trump-declares-he-was-born-of-a-virgin-and-will-bring-balance-to-the-force

Just kidding, not sorry.

Blogger Hammerli 280 August 22, 2019 8:57 AM  

I'm going to disagree, Vox. I think the big problem with education has been the flooding of the market with Government money. Loans, GI Bill, etc. It's just like the housing bubble, except that it fed the growth of a college administrative bureaucracy.

Private student loans should be allowed...and a bank knowing that normal bankruptcy rules apply won't be lending money to a Gender Studies major.

Blogger Hammerli 280 August 22, 2019 8:58 AM  

WRT #21: Disagree about banning student loans, that is.

Blogger John Rockwell August 22, 2019 8:59 AM  

Now the dismantling of fractional reserve banking. And return to full reserve banking.

That would be good too.

That will seriously undo usury.

Blogger Glaivester August 22, 2019 9:00 AM  

"They are intrinsically predatory and accomplish nothing except inflating the cost of higher education."

Unfortunately, debt forgiveness will make this problem worse until we either eliminate student loans themselves, or make the colleges pay the balance. Until we get the colleges under control, it just means we go from the student debt crisis to government directly subsidizing tuition.

Seize the endowments, now.

Blogger maniacprovost August 22, 2019 9:02 AM  

But without student loans, the military would be forced to pay for soldiers' tuition instead of making vague promises to reimburse it after the fact.

Blogger Ransom Smith August 22, 2019 9:07 AM  

Private student loans should be allowed...and a bank knowing that normal bankruptcy rules apply won't be lending money to a Gender Studies major.
You think Citi, Wells Fargo and JP Morgan Chase will somehow become less greedy?
They wont, they'll concoct new ways to create debt and bleed people dry.

Blogger camcleat August 22, 2019 9:07 AM  

Stilicho wrote:Today, we consider the old apprenticeship system draconian and harsh. Case law has many examplesof apprentices running awayfrom then being forcibly returned to serve out their time with harsh masters. Yet even though such apprentices had to serve a set number of years, mostly for room, board, and training, at the end, they had an occupation and we're free of further obligation. Today, we give "apprentices" more leisure, but saddle them with ridiculous levels of debt many will not be able to pay in return for mostly worthless degrees.

The closest thing we have to a master-apprentice model these days is the tech school / community college (CC) setting. University is not it at all with the modern professorial class and institutional rot.

In that, the tech schools and CC's are doing good work. Students learn what they need to get a job very nearly always from someone that has real expertise in that job. It tends to be very hands-on.

The schools are cheaper than university to begin with so less borrowing. The time frame of the training, 2 years or less, means even if they borrow some, it's far less. Many students at CC work, so they are borrowing less. A lot of CC programs give "course credit" for work experience.

I have an advanced degree in a hard science and used to teach at university level. I now "counsel" young folks "don't go to college." Parents often hate me for that because it's not the party line; that's not the socially accepted normal.

Both my children have chosen the CC route. My daughter is almost done and has already had job offers. My son started this week. His teacher told the class the first day, "If you finish this program, you will have a job. This field is hurting for qualified people."

Both are training in fields will Make America Great Again.

Blogger Joeplanet August 22, 2019 9:07 AM  

I’m for seizing the endowments of these Marxist enclaves. Send them back to the treasury.

Blogger SemiSpook37 August 22, 2019 9:18 AM  

@27

Will agree on that. Have my BS from a major university, and was at the main campus for all but one or two semesters (went on a co-op and took classes at a branch). I felt that the experience at the branch campus was better than my time at the main campus because I was treated as an actual student, not a faceless number funneling money into the system.

Fast forward 20 years later: currently in an undergrad certificate program at my local CC. While working full time, managing a family, and a bunch of other stuff, easily have a 4.0 GPA for the cert and am about to go into my last semester. Have already started mentioning to the oldest to consider the CC to start to get general ed credits out of the way and save some money. Plus, the wife's family funded 529s for my children (and can afford to do so), so we don't have to worry about loans for them. Definitely pushing on the academics, though.

Great news to hear from the G-E on the disabled vets. Hopefully this dam breaks sooner rather than later for the rest of us.

Blogger Brett baker August 22, 2019 9:23 AM  

The. God-Emperor did it when he was operating as Henry VIII.

Blogger JACIII August 22, 2019 9:25 AM  

Steve Sky wrote:@Dos Voltz. The reason for that is because Law students were going thru college, financed totally via student loans. They'd then graduate, declare bankruptcy, and enter life debt free.

Quite a nice scam, with other students taking note, until the banks got the Gov't to eliminate that "loophole".


Don't be an idiot. This was the scam story that you fell for. It was a boon granted to the Clinton financial sector donors and the banksters funding congressional campaigns.

Blogger jeffinjapan August 22, 2019 9:32 AM  

The small hats ain’t gonna like this one bit.

Blogger IrishFarmer August 22, 2019 9:34 AM  

This and removing Title X funds from baby killers. This is the kind of real no bs win that is going to convince some of the most cold hearted skeptics like me to get out the vote in 2020. I'm looking forward to more.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 22, 2019 9:36 AM  

Irishfarmer,

Yeah, until the next opportunity for you to cuck and run comes along.

Blogger VD August 22, 2019 9:39 AM  

Private student loans should be allowed...and a bank knowing that normal bankruptcy rules apply won't be lending money to a Gender Studies major.

No. And no. This is pure usury, lending against something that is intrinsically valueless.

The reason for that is because Law students were going thru college, financed totally via student loans. They'd then graduate, declare bankruptcy, and enter life debt free.

That's total BS. The historical statistics show nothing of the sort. Furthermore, that would be the bank's problem for loaning against literally nothing in collateral.

Blogger IrishFarmer August 22, 2019 9:41 AM  

Stg58,

Now who's being the negative Nancy?

Blogger Whitecloak August 22, 2019 9:47 AM  

@35 VD. Is there a good way to explain to people usury? It's more than just interest rates, after all, but has far more to do with terms and recourse.

A loan against property isn't usurious in itself as the recourse is on the property- you default, the lender gets the car/house/etc.

A loan against a person, however, is usurious, as there is nothing to collect on save the ole' pound of flesh should default come.

Student loans are perhaps among the most pernicious of usurious loans, as they are a total inversion of values. Usurious loans, without underwriting standards, to youths brought up to believe they -must- get a college education, exploiting the good and decent desire of functional young people to become full fledged adults and members of society.

Evil, usurious, and courtesy the government and the academy.

The institutions meant to serve us enslave us. Fitting they also seek to replace us?

We are ruled by wicked pedophiles in truth.

No wonder the GE has had such a hell of a time getting things done. It's near a miracle he's gotten what he has.

Blogger Welleran August 22, 2019 9:48 AM  

And those of us who missed out on career and network opportunities because we refused to put ourselves into an unwinnable position with ludicrous debt? I understand the arguments both financial and ethical but this whole thing still feels like a "fuck you" to people who didnt let themselves become debt slaves to the banks. I'll admit it's mostly just sour grapes but believe me they're really sour.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 22, 2019 9:51 AM  

"Now who's being the negative Nancy?"

So you promise not to cuck and run then?

Blogger Whitecloak August 22, 2019 9:52 AM  

@38 If it makes you feel any better, the 'opportunities' you mention mostly involve working at Starbucks.

The people who won the student loan bet are people who likely would have done just fine without the bet.

Blogger Rahul S August 22, 2019 9:57 AM  

The way you stop inflating tuition is by having the government stop subsidizing student loan debt.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 22, 2019 9:57 AM  

"A loan against property isn't usurious in itself as the recourse is on the property- you default, the lender gets the car/house/etc."

Usury is collecting "interest", period. The whole "usury is only unfair interest" is a redefinitive lie.

What you're talking about has more to do with bankruptcy proceedings.

What you're talking about has more to do with bankruptcy proceedings.

Blogger Damelon Brinn August 22, 2019 10:03 AM  

@38, As one of those non-debt-users myself, I like to reflect on Matthew 20:1-16. Other people's good fortune is none of my business. In theory, if the debt relief comes out of taxes it becomes my business, but in current year when close to 50% of our income is being taken to support every program under the sun, I shouldn't be more angry about this idea than I am about all those expenditures. Freeing up potentially productive Americans would be a better use of that money than sending it to other countries or measuring cow farts. Even better would be taking some juice out of the colleges themselves. But the most important thing is ending the scam going forward, and debt relief now will build support to bundle with that.

Whenever this idea comes up, many of us think of the pot-smoking 6th-year junior who sleeps in his dorm room til noon before heading off to a marketing class, or the gender studies fattie who thinks her degree will get her a job editing an upscale feminist magazine in Manhattan. No one wants to do those losers any favors. But you have to see beyond them.

Blogger ADS August 22, 2019 10:04 AM  

There shouldn't even be the need to finance a college education. The classics of art and literature haven't changed, nor history, nor philosophy, nor mathematics, nor basic sciences, nor engineering practice. The internet has made physical gathering places obsolete. You should be able to get a high quality classic/liberal arts/science education from public domain and open source texts, guided by a qualified professor for a low hourly rate. A complete 4 year degree should cost a few thousand dollars at most.
(((ABET))) isn't going to let you just walk away without crippling loans to make you a permanent slave to the small hats though.

Blogger ar10308 August 22, 2019 10:05 AM  

One rhetorical/dialectic avenue I've found to be effective against the "You borrowed them, YOU Pay them"/Boomer crowd is to point out that the Lender shouldn't have made such a bad investment of their money. It reframes their sense of fairness and responsibility directs it back at the people really at fault for this whole situation.

Pointing out that anyone lending $100k to an 18yo studying underwater-basket weaving and expecting a return on investment with interest deserves to lose every penny of that "investment" due to the sheer stupidity of the investment and the government shouldn't be protecting them from the consequences of their poor investing.

I've gotten it to work on several Boomer-types.

Blogger Unknown August 22, 2019 10:06 AM  

@24 "Seize the endowments, now."

Don't stop there. Back in the 70's and 80's the courts were forcing insurance companies to pay for losses that were specifically excluded. They did it then without benefit of legislation. They, or Someone, can do it now. Seize the (((banks)))!

Blogger Andrew August 22, 2019 10:09 AM  

Now the dismantling of fractional reserve banking. And return to full reserve banking.

Nothing wrong with fractional reserve banking. Banks are constrained by profit, not reserves. People need to be reminded that when they put their savings in banks, they're buying a stake in the bank's operations. Their savings are at risk. Banks are not warehouses where you store your savings.

Blogger Glaivester August 22, 2019 10:09 AM  

Don't be an idiot. [People declaring bankruptcy to cheat the college loan system] was the scam story that you fell for. [Making student loan debt dischargeable] was a boon granted to the Clinton financial sector donors and the banksters funding congressional campaigns.

As I understand it, haven't student loans been guaranteed by the government for some time? That means even private loans were no risk for the lending institutions even if debts were dischargeable. I was under the impression that all the attempts to keep students in debt were about protecting the taxpayer - the lenders were never at risk, it's just a question of on whom do they offload the risk.

That's the big problem currently with all of the student loan forgiveness plans. We need to make certain that there is actually a cost to the involved parties, or it simply becomes another limitless taxpayer subsidy.

That's why I keep harping on seizing the endowments. As long as we do not penalize either the colleges or, in the case of private loans, the lenders (but that is a shrinking part of the market) student loan forgiveness simply creates more incentive to gouge whoever actually winds up paying for college.

And "well, forgive the debt but ban student loans," etc. is a bad idea because it becomes "amnesty now for enforcement later." Unless we find some way to claw back some money from the colleges RIGHT NOW, there is not going to be any reform.

Blogger Joe Smith August 22, 2019 10:12 AM  

I've actually been confused about usury in the Christian context too. Is it considered usury to charge someone a fee to lend them money? Even a flat cost to a loan or something like that? Or is "usury" reserved for the predatory side of lending?

Blogger camcleat August 22, 2019 10:13 AM  

Whitecloak wrote:@35

A loan against property isn't usurious in itself



The institutionalization of lending is a problem no matter what the loan is for or how it is secured. Chesterton and others have pointed this sort of thing out in that the distance-relationship scale of our interactions matter, and they matter a lot.

Let's say you and I are neighbors and you have more liquid capital at the moment. You and I strike a deal wherein you loan me some money to make some improvement in my situation - new tractor, new building, whatever. Implicit in our deal is that I will pay you back in cash, goods or service. How much I pay you back is up to use to agree to; what works for us at the time of this deal is our agreement.

Since we are neighbors and friends, there are strong ties to each other and motivation by both parties to honor both the terms and spirit of the agreement. The lender wants his neighbor to succeed because he is his neighbor.

Contrast this with a lending institution that has no real ties to the local community or perhaps even the nation in which it operates. Neither side now has anywhere near as strong a motivation to honor the spirit of the "agreement," which was one-sided from the get-go because one side set all the terms.

Couple that with that one side being both greedy and excessively legalistic and it's pretty clear there is no "community" in this relationship. In fact, one side profits even if the other fails. That one side will not hesitate to crush the borrower at the drop of a hat.

The community connection matters.

I'm not sure how this relates to usury specifically; it's just what came to mind as you were defending one aspect of institutionalized lending.

Blogger camcleat August 22, 2019 10:18 AM  

ADS wrote:There shouldn't even be the need to finance a college education.


You should be able to get a high quality classic/liberal arts/science education from public domain and open source texts


I agree with you in principle and we've had numerous discussions on this very topic in my field.

However, this assumed that Google has not completely broken the ability to get information in Current Year. It's not like it was even five years ago.

Do a search on any topic in Chemistry, for example, and likely all you'll get is Wikipedia references and similarly watered down or outright wrong nonsense.

Vetting the quality of information has always been a problem for the model you describe. Now add to that that Google has disallowed you access to info and there's not as much to vet.

Blogger eldiabloloco August 22, 2019 10:20 AM  

And those of us who missed out on career and network opportunities because we refused to put ourselves into an unwinnable position with ludicrous debt? I understand the arguments both financial and ethical but this whole thing still feels like a "fuck you" to people who didnt let themselves become debt slaves to the banks. I'll admit it's mostly just sour grapes but believe me they're really sour.

Yeah, agree. I did the college route, but most of my high school friends went into trades, welding, electric, construction, and plumbing. After paying for my college, my wife's college, and two kid's college, I ain't all that eager to pay for everyone else.

But my sour grapes are NOTHING compared to the guys that went into trades. The ones that seem most pissed are the ones that are independent contractors.

But the people that deserved to have their debts covered, vets - we are all ok with that specific result.

Fuck it. Just rob the 401K's, cancel medicare and socialist security and used the printed fiat money meant for those programs to buy ships and plane tickets to empty out all of the third world shitholes. Then they can all crap on the street in S.F. in one big mass squeeze.

Blogger Nate August 22, 2019 10:35 AM  

"And those of us who missed out on career and network opportunities because we refused to put ourselves into an unwinnable position with ludicrous debt? I understand the arguments both financial and ethical but this whole thing still feels like a "fuck you" to people who didnt let themselves become debt slaves to the banks. I'll admit it's mostly just sour grapes but believe me they're really sour.


so because some folks don't get fall for fraudulent scams... no one deserves protection or reimbursement from the perpetrators?

Brilliant. Good thinking. Dick.

Blogger dienw August 22, 2019 10:36 AM  

Periodic dept forgiveness is necessary: every seven or fifty years;this is a biblical principle: a nation cannot permit its people to be permanently enslaved to creditors foreign or domestic; for not only the people come under the control of the creditors but so does the real wealth of the nation fall into their grip: the land, its mineral wealth, its products, and its food supply; as a result, the government whether monarchy or republic loses its ability to self govern.

The United States is controlled by oligarchic creditors both (((foreign and domestic))); this must end to restore the nation.

Blogger Dirk Manly August 22, 2019 10:38 AM  

@25

"But without student loans, the military would be forced to pay for soldiers' tuition instead of making vague promises to reimburse it after the fact."

That's ALL under the Department of Veterans' Affairs, and has nothing to do with Department of Defense money.

Blogger tuberman August 22, 2019 10:40 AM  

The drip, drip, drip is intentional, and the best way to slowly wake up many, and to force the MSM to cover these actions.

Blogger dienw August 22, 2019 10:40 AM  

Debt forgiveness does not mean that the government and thus the population via taxes assumes the debt: the whole purpose of debt forgiveness is to set both the government and the people free from oligarchical/creditor oppression.

Blogger Don't Call Me Len August 22, 2019 10:42 AM  

You should be able to get a high quality classic/liberal arts/science education from public domain and open source texts, guided by a qualified professor for a low hourly rate

And how many current or even recent "college students" are actually pursuing any education? Modern credentialism has made college into the mandatory high-school-after-high-school, and many "students" are merely fucking off for 4-6 years, then leaving without a degree (roughly 40% right now).

It's like every other thing in life: the material aspects are irrelevant. The motivated will do it regardless of obstacles, the rest will simply drift through and eventually fall away.

I believe in student jubilee not out of great concern for the students, but to screw the thievin' bastard banks and to hamstring the income streams of the totally converged universities.

"But what of the taxpayers?!" you cry? Look, our debt is well past "the check is the mail" stage and headed straight into "put all your assets in someone else's name". Tax "revenue" hasn't covered spending for ages, and in comparison to all the swampy shit that's being fully funded, a debt jubilee might actually benefit us.

Blogger The Deuce August 22, 2019 10:51 AM  

I think something like this would be a reasonable compromise:

1) The government buys up all student loans it doesn't already own so that it can legally change the terms on them.

2) The government changes the terms of all student loans so that the debts are dischargable, but doesn't forgive them outright.

3) The government sets up a system where people who have already paid off their student loans can sign up to be "substitute creditors" for the purposes of discharging student loan debts. Thus, when somebody with a student loan declares bankruptcy and discharges their debt, any debt settlement payments go to people who already paid off their loans instead of the government.

4) The law is changed so that all future student loans are dischargable, and the government may no longer issue them.

Blogger Nate August 22, 2019 10:53 AM  

"3) The government sets up a system where people who have already paid off their student loans can sign up to be "substitute creditors" for the purposes of discharging student loan debts. Thus, when somebody with a student loan declares bankruptcy and discharges their debt, any debt settlement payments go to people who already paid off their loans instead of the government."

The sincere belief that you are owed something is the root of all Gimmie-Dat.

Do not Gimmie-Dat here. not Gimmie-Dat area.

Blogger Cylinder August 22, 2019 11:02 AM  

@27

What field was the teacher was talking about? It would be good information to have.

Blogger camcleat August 22, 2019 11:19 AM  

Cylinder wrote:@27

What field was the teacher was talking about? It would be good information to have.


Manufacturing Technology. CNC Machining and the like.

I was ecstatic to learn that they do in fact start them out doing hand machining before going to the computer controlled stuff. Even though that is just a bit of basic exposure, very valuable in my opinion.

These programs don't pussyfoot around with a ton of "gotta study in the classroom 3 years before the fun stuff," either. They were grinding lathe cutters yesterday and start lathe-work today.

My son is pumped.

Blogger Blume August 22, 2019 11:23 AM  

Nate, student loan forgiveness is the ultimate gimme-dat. So it's to late, this is now a gimme-dat area. Might as well give everyone a free house. My house costs less than the debt accrued by each of the Obamas.

Blogger wahr01 August 22, 2019 11:30 AM  

Glaivester wrote:

Seize the endowments, now.


Agreed, the endowments must be seized.

We have paper trails of these dead-weight people showing which schools made them into the dead-weight they are today.

Time for them to pay the price of their failures.

Blogger Extremly August 22, 2019 11:36 AM  

While i am glad of what he has done I can't shake the feeling that this is another Boomer ritualistic offering to the cult of soldier worship (promoted and allowed by the establishment). It strikes me that Trump won't connect the dots and expand debt forgiveness to the larger populace.

I hope I am wrong. But given all of Trump's moves lately it seems that the message is that he cares a lot about israel, and soldiers who lose limbs fighting for israel. Not a great message to send out. Even people who can't articulate, subconsciously understand it. Again I hope I am wrong

Blogger Banjo August 22, 2019 11:36 AM  

I’m 20 years removed from school so I really didn’t get the “predatory” aspect of these institutions. However, my child took the ACT as a freshman last year and ever since he has been receiving emails from universities all over begging her to come to their school.

How did they get her email address? How did they get her score (99th percentile)? Why are they reaching out to him instead of the parents?

Predatory indeed.

(Yes, I routinely use a different pronoun for my kid solely as an attempt at obfuscation)

Blogger liberranter August 22, 2019 11:44 AM  

Hmmm. Seems the (((professorial))) class is a very special class indeed.

They are, along with the (((financial))) class.

Blogger Up from the pond August 22, 2019 11:52 AM  

Blume wrote:student loan forgiveness is the ultimate gimme-dat. So it's to late, this is now a gimme-dat area. Might as well give everyone a free house. My house costs less than the debt accrued by each of the Obamas.

Keep demanding that others pay their pound of flesh to Shylock. See where it leads you.

Blogger peacefulposter August 22, 2019 11:54 AM  

We have negative usury is now. See all those bonds with negative yields.

Blogger Up from the pond August 22, 2019 12:00 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger JACIII August 22, 2019 12:00 PM  

Glaivester wrote:Don't be an idiot. [People declaring bankruptcy to cheat the college loan system] was the scam story that you fell for. [Making student loan debt dischargeable] was a boon granted to the Clinton financial sector donors and the banksters funding congressional campaigns.

That's the big problem currently with all of the student loan forgiveness plans. We need to make certain that there is actually a cost to the involved parties, or it simply becomes another limitless taxpayer subsidy.



[UNdischargeable]

Boomers.
It's boomers all the way down.

Blogger camcleat August 22, 2019 12:09 PM  

Banjo wrote:

my child took the ACT as a freshman last year and ever since he has been receiving emails from universities all over begging her to come to their school.

How did they get her email address?


Ditto my child's experience. She was PO'd when it started happening, too. Some schools have sent her numerous fliers and letters, all be begging her to attend.


For those that think GenZ is just riding along on the current flow, look to how they are acting in terms of prepping for life after college. It ain't always about what they post online or what movies they like or don't like.

The Zoomers are clear on this stuff and they want no part of the current system.



Predatory indeed.



Indeed. Should be criminal. Or, we Dad's should find our own way to take a pound of flesh...out of the people trying to exploit our children for profit.

Blogger camcleat August 22, 2019 12:10 PM  

@72

Oops, meant "prepping for life after high school."

Blogger Unknown August 22, 2019 12:17 PM  

Camcleat,
There are some apprenticeship programs alive yet. Some are in the St. Louis area, and near Madison, WI. Plumbing, steam fitting, electrical, and even machine shop.
I ran a company 35 years, making cut rifled barrels for civilian and military. Many, many of the young men that showed up, even from some CC and Tech schools, did NOT know about chip making unless it was CNC and carbide tooling. Hell, my girlfriend could grind threading tools in her sleep and these young fellows just looked at you, no idea how to use a grinder for tooling.
Thank GOD that your youngster has professors that are not jumping over the basics to begin his 'real' education.

Blogger Unknown August 22, 2019 12:19 PM  

I don't know why google strips my name.... it is M24SWSbarrels. If you are an Army shooter, you know the M24... my barrels.
God bless
Mike Rock

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella August 22, 2019 12:49 PM  

Henry 8 took the monasteries: the universities of the day. England then went into a large growth phase. Shakespeare and Milton and chemistry and physics occurred after this, too. So, it's been done.

We could claw back the Ivies endowments, easily. One good judge, one time, once. Why not? We arbitrarily fined banks and oil companies during Obama's tenure.

It doesn't have to be blue collar taxpayers paying for the relief of white collar college graduates. It can be wealthy Ivies paying for the relief of white collar college graduates.

We need to put a leash on college endowments, anyway. They've grown so big that (((speculators))) use them as nest eggs to fund national raids: Russia has sued the heads of Harvard for stripping them of assets when the Soviet Union fell. I would think that other, smaller nations would like to be safe from the depradations of the Harvard Business School (((pirates))). They really do not have a conscience: the 80s- they took all sorts of Midwestern pension funds in 'leveraged buyouts' then used that money to asset strip mining countries in the second and third world. Completely disgraceful.

Blogger Argus Bacchus August 22, 2019 12:55 PM  

After graduating from high school in the late 80's, I attended a 2 year community college. My first semester's tuition was $60.

$5 per semester unit.

Even the 4 year private college I transferred to as a junior was inexpensive compared to what it costs to go there now.

$60 now buys me maybe a month's worth of protein bars.

Blogger Up from the pond August 22, 2019 1:05 PM  

ScottC wrote:Most student loans won't be paid off.

For predatory lending institutions, the pay-off is debt slavery. They have ways of bearing the loss of the money, in pursuit of this deeper goal. Social control and destruction of potential competition in future generations are a part of debt-slavery.

Blogger JAG August 22, 2019 1:17 PM  

Argus Bacchus wrote:After graduating from high school in the late 80's, I attended a 2 year community college. My first semester's tuition was $60.

$5 per semester unit.

Even the 4 year private college I transferred to as a junior was inexpensive compared to what it costs to go there now.

$60 now buys me maybe a month's worth of protein bars.


Same time frame here, and I watched tuition quadruple in 2 years. Books went up greatly in that time span too. The transition period from Bush the Elder to Clinton is when this thing broke.

Blogger Ken Prescott August 22, 2019 1:22 PM  

The problem is that you can't exactly repossess a degree, or the knowledge and skills acquired in the course of gaining the degree.

Make the universities liable for the costs of discharged loans.

Blogger Blume August 22, 2019 1:24 PM  

I ain't what I am demanding is consistency. Either we are for or against giving people free shit or not. If we are completely against free shit as Nate says then student loan forgiveness is out period.

Blogger The Cooler August 22, 2019 1:31 PM  

Books went up greatly in that time span too

Applicable anecdote:

My Junior year as an undergraduate, walking towards the register in the book store to pay for books. I placed the books on the counter, one fell off the counter onto the floor and what came flying out? About 5 pre-approved credit card applications. Sophomore year, nothing; Junior and Senior year, every book in the book store, stuffed with these. I knew very few people in college that didn't get sucked into these cards.

True story.

Blogger NewTunesForOldLogos August 22, 2019 1:32 PM  

“The problem is that you can't exactly repossess a degree”
Nor can you repossess gambling debt, or random credit card charges, or many other useless things that people go into debt for. Having said that, you’re right that universities should be punished for their previous deception, and made to have skin in the game going forward.

Blogger Azimus August 22, 2019 1:37 PM  

Jubilee is good.

Fixing the criminal change to the bankruptcy law is better.

Blogger Azimus August 22, 2019 1:40 PM  

@Banjo pronoun encryption: in a world where that is necessary, do you really think thats effective?

Blogger Alexei August 22, 2019 1:42 PM  

"Usury is collecting "interest", period."

Yeah, but it's not unreasonable to expect a lender to get some benefit from doing the lending.

The real problem is the compounding interest growing the principal. So allow the lending. But simple interest only, and that capped to some reasonable amount. Say 10%.

Blogger Unknown August 22, 2019 1:56 PM  

@Blume Stop being a fucking boomer. It's not all about you. Debt jubliee is about helping those that were taken advantage of. Do you cry and demand money because you paid taxes for fire fighters that your neighbor needed when his house burned down? Do you demand reciprocation because you don't receive WIC or some other govt program?

Blogger Noah B. August 22, 2019 2:01 PM  

Cue the Fake News bashing disabled veterans.

Blogger VD August 22, 2019 2:02 PM  

Yeah, but it's not unreasonable to expect a lender to get some benefit from doing the lending.

It's not unreasonable for a rapist to get some benefit from doing the raping. Usury is immoral. It is wrong. Deal with it.

Blogger Rule of Wrist August 22, 2019 2:10 PM  

I'm ok with student loan debt forgiveness as long as the US taxpayer isn't the one holding the bag at the end of the day.

What they should do is tax (or confiscate!) the endowments of all the universities in the country to pay for it. The endowments of all the Ivy League colleges are absolutely insane numbers, and I'll bet the total dollar amounts of university endowments across the country is enough cash to put a real dent in the amount that will needed to be forgiven.

Hold the people responsible for the theft accountable before the US taxpayer is held accountable.
I mean, the odds of this actually happening are essentially jack and shit, but if you never throw out the idea you never even have the chance to move the window.

Blogger justaguy August 22, 2019 2:15 PM  

Debt jubilee hasn't been tried by a nation in several thousand years and for most Christians, the New Testament cancels the detailed requirements of the old testament laws. It was the gradual and regulated allowance of usury that helped take Western Civilization from subsistence to abundance. However, I would interested to hear how any nation could survive in modern times using all of the Old Testament rules (you can't pick and choose after all). Heck, I don't think that it is feasible to run a nation/modern society without usury.. Good thing there is not a New Testament condemnation of it. there are NT condemnation of things that we openly celebrate (although most Christians used to try to get their nations to minimize them).

Blogger OneWingedShark August 22, 2019 2:20 PM  

Ken Prescott wrote:The problem is that you can't exactly repossess a degree, or the knowledge and skills acquired in the course of gaining the degree.

Make the universities liable for the costs of discharged loans.

There's an assumption that there was any knowledge imparted, or any skill gained; but, regardless, you are right that the quality of instruction would skyrocket if Universities were forced to co-sign the loans.

Blume wrote:I ain't what I am demanding is consistency. Either we are for or against giving people free shit or not. If we are completely against free shit as Nate says then student loan forgiveness is out period.
There's more than just "free shit" at play here; there was/is a massive conspiracy to perpetuate fraud (that of both "a university degree will get you a job!" & "university will teach you") -- especially given the so-called "STEM crisis" (which isn't a shortage, but actually employers not wishing to pay a full salary) and the massive difficulty getting hired on with relevant degrees if you're a Citizen.

Blogger justaguy August 22, 2019 2:31 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger justaguy August 22, 2019 2:37 PM  

I do think that the university system desperately needs reform. It was government forces that enabled the university system to metastasize into the progressive horror that it is now. The market should return it to normal, if the government forces were removed. However it seems likely that the government influence (Griggs v. Duke power by SC that forced disparate/adverse impact on hiring forcing college degrees as a discriminator) as well as the laws that the unscrupulous left has used to grasp and hold the universities in their thrall will not be removed anytime soon, leaving the left ruining our young as they try to get an education.

I actually don't know how businesses figure out how to hire employees that actually know something outside of engineering. Credentialism has become supreme and the left holds the credential making systems. Nothing is going to change it until something outside forces companies to actually compete. Just another step on making US companies uncompetitive. Luckily Europe puts even more restraints on their companies. I am waiting for some entity to actually free their companies who will then start to eat our lunch much as the Japanese car industry did in the 70s through 90s. Reagan stopped the decline by forcing import quotas and the companies simply moved their factories here.

Blogger Northwest Watching Thing August 22, 2019 2:37 PM  

This can turn into the kind of incrementalism I can get behind.
Step 1:Forgiveness of vets at 100% disability.
Then people start to notice it's hard to get to 100%, and a lot of vets are messed up well below 100% mark
Step 2:Forgiveness for all vets
Then everyone is gonna want forgiveness
Step 3: Debt forgiveness for all!

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 22, 2019 2:40 PM  

Azure Amaranthine wrote:Usury is collecting "interest", period. The whole "usury is only unfair interest" is a redefinitive lie.

Azure, if I loan you an apartment, I expect you to pay me ``interest'' every month, and I expect you to return the apartment at the end of the agreement.

If I rent you a pile of money, I expect you to pay me ``rent'' every month, and I expect you to return the pile of money at the end of the agreement.

Rent is interest is rent is interest. If it is possible to rent an apartment without committing usury, it is possible to rent money on the same terms without committing usury.

Blogger Dos Voltz August 22, 2019 2:43 PM  

If you want to talk, scams, then 90%+ of academia, "higher learning" is a scam. Poor kids (like me back in the 80s) working two jobs under $4 an hour to buy books that cost $100 (written by (((professors))). Then the college book store buys it back at end of semester for $10. Then resells.

Oh, and sometimes there were times I HAD to miss school in order to work in order to pay my tuition. Teach then gives me a zero for non-attendance??!! WTF??!! Thanks for cratering my grade point average, deuche!

Let's face it, colleges these days are built to achieve their own goals, (not to educate the youth, you naiive little turd). They are:

1. Turn kids away from Christ through ridicule and for "failing" the tests of "science."
2. Turn kids against their parents
3. Turn kids against Ameritage heritage and ESPECIALLY whites who were the founding stock
4. Make it impossible to criticize the university and who runs it, who profits, as it is bigoted and anti-semitic
5. Encourage the "fun" and "party" atmosphere, (wink, wink, there's free love/sex everywhere!!), which helps to turn you against Christ, parents, heritage. Notice the explosion in lists like "America's Top Party Schools!" An alcohol-soaked brain won't learn much at all, not even how to make a latte.
6. Soak you dry financially to make you a debt slave all your life, and if that can't be done
7. Soak your parents dry.

I graduated in 87 cum laude and it was super-grueling, I paid student loans back in 10 years. That was 15 years of lameness and poverty - all I remember.

And it is even harder and more expensive for kids these days. It is a fucking racket and NO ONE should be saddled with that kind of evil burden just to get a piece of paper with a (((special))) stamp on it.

And yeah, I was once a libertarian, free-marketer, Randbot, but when a scam this huge is openly destructive and evil it's time to call it out and start talking like a fire-breathing fascist who will bring those bastards to their knees!

Rant over, thank you.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 22, 2019 2:48 PM  

ar10308 wrote:One rhetorical/dialectic avenue I've found to be effective ... is to point out that the Lender shouldn't have made such a bad investment of their money.

A similar avenue is to point out that the possibility of bankruptcy is the only deterrent to predatory lending. It keeps payday lenders from getting someone over-extended at high interest rates, then lending a little more at ruinous rates, then capturing every dollar that someone earns for the rest of his life.

The possibility of bankruptcy puts the burden on the lender to ensure that the consequences of honestly paying off the loan are less burdensome than the consequences of bankruptcy. The pro has skin in the game, and will make sure the idiot who can't understand compounding will be able to repay, easily.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 22, 2019 2:53 PM  

camcleat wrote:Couple that with that one side being both greedy and excessively legalistic and it's pretty clear there is no "community" in this relationship. In fact, one side profits even if the other fails. That one side will not hesitate to crush the borrower at the drop of a hat.

If we are going to allow large, impersonal institutions to exist decoupled from our community and from our nation, then we must have easy bankruptcy as a deterrent to their evil.

Or, we could go back to the pre-1930s era, and require banks to operate only in one state, and perhaps only in one community in one state. Outlaw branch banking, and we outlaw many abuses.

Blogger justaguy August 22, 2019 2:54 PM  

#97: I agree that college is a scam for the majority of those who pay for the privilege of being scammed. Why should an average guy, in most respects need to pay maybe $100k and 4 years to learn basically nothing except leftist etiquette in order to apply for a job. But this is the situation we have today. The government through HR (both adverse impact and hostile work environment laws) have totally captivated hiring away from finding performing employees and college indoctrination is the opening ticket to be considered.

My issues is that this system needs reform and forgiving loans will only reinforce a bad system. It is going to collapse and it needs to. Right now many small businesses cannot find enough people to work in the trades who actually care to work. It is remarkable that so many 20s are not capable of doing what most people did a couple of generations ago-- give a good days work for pay. Plumbers, contractors, etc can't find them. Maybe because the illegal immigration with H1 visas have lowered the wages too much (most likely), ut there is a shortage of those willing to work with their hands-- which should be what that average guys does.

Blogger justaguy August 22, 2019 2:58 PM  

#99. Not to go all libertarian on you, but there are many studies that these small lenders fill a need in the marketplace. As there is such a large default rate and an open market, if one payday lender was cheaper than the one down the street (where there is one, there are a few others) don't you think that the higher cost one would lose business. In other words-- competition works and will force costs down.

Now as many of the needs of these lenders are for those who can't use normal banks (illegals, etc.) and they do work with the lower levels of income earners, yes when government prevented their business, the loan shark criminal filled the void. There is a need for last chance loans, but we don't like to acknowledge that fact. The illegal who needs to cash a check-- I don't care about-- he shouldn't be here.

Blogger The Cooler August 22, 2019 3:02 PM  

@96 I see what you did there, but it's a poor analogue, Ominous; even in the extreme abstract. I suppose it's possible to predatorily rent someone an apartment...maybe. -- whereas the lending of money at usurious interest is guaranteed to be a predatory act, especially within he context of 'higher education,' wherein little demonstrable value or worth is produced; or, when the only actual value exchange is one-way, to the lender.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 22, 2019 3:04 PM  

Blume wrote:Nate, student loan forgiveness is the ultimate gimme-dat. So it's to late, this is now a gimme-dat area. Might as well give everyone a free house.

Exactly what is our purpose?

Are we trying to preserve traditional capitalist morality as we knew it last year, and the ladies room?

Or are we trying to destroy a corrupt, evil indoctrination system which is enslaving our nation financially and intellectually?

Once we figure out what we're trying to accomplish, the means will become clearer.

Blogger VD August 22, 2019 3:09 PM  

It was the gradual and regulated allowance of usury that helped take Western Civilization from subsistence to abundance.

No, it was not. Rothbard was incorrect.

Blogger VD August 22, 2019 3:11 PM  

I understand the arguments both financial and ethical but this whole thing still feels like a "fuck you" to people who didnt let themselves become debt slaves to the banks. I'll admit it's mostly just sour grapes but believe me they're really sour.

Get over yourself and stop being a moron. Do you want to live proudly debt-free in a barren wasteland?

Blogger VD August 22, 2019 3:13 PM  

I ain't what I am demanding is consistency. Either we are for or against giving people free shit or not. If we are completely against free shit as Nate says then student loan forgiveness is out period.

You're literally too stupid to comment here. I'm 100 percent against binary thinkers commenting here, so that rules you out.

Blogger VD August 22, 2019 3:19 PM  

It genuinely pains me to have to explain to you moronic narcissists that THERE IS NO MORAL HAZARD if student loans are banned at the same time debt forgiveness for student loans is enacted.

You're all whining and crying over nothing.

Furthermore, you are so mind-numbingly stupid that none of you realize the entire system is on the verge of collapse because people who cannot pay back student loan debt will never keep your debt-based economy going. You'd rather go down in flames yourself than rescue others from the flames because you think they are less virtuous than you are. That's not only stupid, it's despicable.

PS: I never had any student loan debt either. But I recognize the macroeconomy is not all about me.

Blogger Iron Spartan August 22, 2019 3:21 PM  

Breaking the cycle of credentialism needs to be the next step before total student loan forgiveness can be addressed.

Blogger camcleat August 22, 2019 3:26 PM  

Ominous Cowherd wrote:camcleat wrote:Couple that with that one side being both greedy and excessively legalistic and it's pretty clear there is no "community" in this relationship. In fact, one side profits even if the other fails. That one side will not hesitate to crush the borrower at the drop of a hat.

If we are going to allow large, impersonal institutions to exist decoupled from our community and from our nation, then we must have easy bankruptcy as a deterrent to their evil.

Or, we could go back to the pre-1930s era, and require banks to operate only in one state, and perhaps only in one community in one state. Outlaw branch banking, and we outlaw many abuses.


I thought of another important distinction between my "neighbor loans excess to neighbor" and institutional lender models:

The neighbor actually has the capital to lend his friend. This is far removed from the institutional system we have in place now.


On a not entirely unrelated note, there are Booomers in this thread defending usury as good and necessary. Unbelievable.

Shouldn't surprise me, so shame on me.

Blogger justaguy August 22, 2019 3:49 PM  

#104: While Rothbard may have been incorrect, your position is that eliminating the usury laws did not HELP the advancement of Western society? The formation of corporations to limit liability and the ability to mitigate risk, which is part of the financial system? Maybe not the main component, but my position is that it helped and is necessary for a modern society.

I might be wrong, and VD might say so in a clever manner.(he is a much better writer than I can hope to be) Okay. It is very hard to test this out, just as it is hard to define and prevent usury. I lend to person A but not B due to non-usury things he does for me etc. But this is economic history and theory.

And yes, #110 most modern people defend usury. All modern governments and pretty much every economist, statesman etc. defends the ability to charge interest for the risk of loaning money or items. They may want government regulation of it. I was fine when the government regulated the interest rates and it was okay that very few received credit, but that was a government decision-- low interest rates, but people were very careful at matching risk. This system of resolving risk instead of spreading the cost of the high risk people across everyone was stopped by disparate discrimination issues. I am waiting until the progressives force all mortgages to have the same terms-- eliminating matching risk to rate.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 22, 2019 3:51 PM  

OneWingedShark wrote:... the so-called "STEM crisis" (which isn't a shortage, but actually employers not wishing to pay a full salary) ...

There is famously a shortage of skilled nurses. I got some data from our state's occupational licensing folks on the number of LPNs and RN licensed in our state. It turns out that in 2006 there were roughly two licensed nurses for each person employed as a licensed nurse. There are plenty of people licensed to do the work, and only about half of them working in the field. It turns out that the ``nursing shortage'' is actually a shortage of people willing to do hard work in bad conditions for low pay.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 22, 2019 4:02 PM  

The Cooler wrote:I suppose it's possible to predatorily rent someone an apartment...maybe. -- whereas the lending of money at usurious interest is guaranteed to be a predatory act, ...

Agreed. Whatever usury may be, it's not simply receiving payment for the use of your property, or else being a landlord is usurious.

I would suggest that compounding interest is definitely usurious. I would also suggest that making the borrower the collateral rather than some property is also definitely usurious.

Or, perhaps temporarily transferring the use of property for a fee is usury, period. Selling it outright is OK, giving it away is OK, but renting is a sin.

The point I was making above is that we are talking here as if money is somehow special, and renting out money is intrinsically different from renting out anything else. It's not.

Blogger Dark Hobbes August 22, 2019 4:08 PM  

I'm surprised debt relief for student loans isn't more popular on the right. Anytime you bring it up, you get the usual wailing about freeloaders, socialism, muh free markets, etc.

All of which is true. However...

If we're REALLY in a low-scale civil war, we need to begin acting like it. Academia is one of the key nodes of the enemy's infrastructure. Anything that cripples and weakens it — such as cutting off a key source of its finances — should be on the table.

I can guarantee that if the left were in our shoes, they wouldn't have any qualms about this.

Blogger The Cooler August 22, 2019 4:11 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger VD August 22, 2019 4:21 PM  

While Rothbard may have been incorrect, your position is that eliminating the usury laws did not HELP the advancement of Western society?

Yes. The idea that technological development depends upon investment capital derived from savings is entirely flawed.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 22, 2019 4:22 PM  

Blaming young Americans for their student loan debt Holocaust and shaming them for their situation is equivalent to telling your ten year old son to jump off the roof to build up his bone toughness, then laughing at him for breaking his leg, and telling him to crawl to the phone himself to call the ambulance.

American youth have been told by every single person in a position of influence or authority to go to college and take out student loans. Those same people point a finger at them, laugh at them, and ridicule them for being so stupid as to take out all of those crushing student loans.

Blogger VD August 22, 2019 4:23 PM  

The point I was making above is that we are talking here as if money is somehow special, and renting out money is intrinsically different from renting out anything else. It's not.

Of course it is. Because money is created from nothing, unlike anything else that can be rented out. You clearly don't understand how the banking system works. It is the loan itself that creates the money that is loaned.

Blogger OneWingedShark August 22, 2019 4:26 PM  

Noah B. wrote:Cue the Fake News bashing disabled veterans.
God have mercy, I can just imagine it—
"Amputee Veterans Did Not Give Enough: How their tale of survival is shameful for the whole nation, but especially Donald Trump."

Ominous Cowherd wrote:Azure Amaranthine wrote:Usury is collecting "interest", period. The whole "usury is only unfair interest" is a redefinitive lie.
Rent is interest is rent is interest. If it is possible to rent an apartment without committing usury, it is possible to rent money on the same terms without committing usury.

Thank you for bringing this up: I believe that much of the whole housing situation actually is the result of usurious "rent" and house-price — of course, you don't have to scratch very far to see that this is also the result of cheap foreign-labor, where a half dozen families can cram into a house and "make rent" while a single Citizen simply can't.

The more you look at the H1B scam, in conjunction with the continual non-enforcement [for the past 30 years], the more it really looks like a scam to disemploy and replace the native Citizen.

Blogger camcleat August 22, 2019 4:43 PM  

justaguy wrote:#104: The formation of corporations to limit liability and the ability to mitigate risk, which is part of the financial system? Maybe not the main component, but my position is that it helped and is necessary for a modern society.



Good grief.

Look around you, man. Do you really think creation of "limited liability" entities on legal paper has been a good thing long term for Western Civilization?

Amazing.

I guess next you'll be telling us that the bastard child of incorporation to limit liability, public school, has been good and necessary for all the good in the modern world, too.

Blogger Whitecloak August 22, 2019 4:46 PM  

@119 Anyone who thinks the LLC has been a boon likely thinks tranny restrooms are a boon.

The overscaled institutions of industrial capitalism have been a disaster for our peoples. Marx got a lot wrong, but he nailed the market liberals on their anti-Christian behavior. "All that is solid melts to air."

Who is called the Prince of the Air again? I do not recall...

Blogger Damelon Brinn August 22, 2019 4:48 PM  

I'm surprised debt relief for student loans isn't more popular on the right.

Old habits die hard. "If dirty hippies are for it, I'm against it" was a decent rule of thumb 40 years ago, but it's breaking down more and more now that we're shifting to nationalism versus globalism.

Blogger camcleat August 22, 2019 4:49 PM  

justaguy wrote:

And yes, #110 most modern people defend usury.


Just say as "MPAI" and be done with it.

A bunch of morons defending it is not proof that usury is moral or beneficial in any way at all.

Blogger The Cooler August 22, 2019 4:53 PM  

Look around you, man. Do you really think creation of "limited liability" entities on legal paper has been a good thing long term for Western Civilization?

And there's that. People have an extremely difficult time looking at things in proper time scales. It's hard, after all, to recognize gimmicks when the gimmicks are the norm, have been 'working' for x years and loosely correlate with increased prosperity, however expensive that prosperity is now proving itself to be on the back end.

Blogger Noah B. August 22, 2019 5:01 PM  

Usurers didn't create economic growth, they chase after it. Just like every other parasite chases a suitable host.

Blogger justaguy August 22, 2019 5:03 PM  

#120: Good grief too. Limited liability means a corporation, an inc. LLCs are simply types of limited liability and a relatively modern invention. Corporations are not. Think shiping interests and risk, crop failures and risk etc. Corporations have been part of the West for a long time and are thought to be by most economists who are not communist/socialist as a factor in the increase of wealth of the West. Corporations encourage risk taking because the risk can be limited.

Now for some time corporations needed very special permission to incorporate-- think permission of the monarch. Today, the government may have released the corporation too much-- or IMHO, the left has released the corporations because they think they can get them to do their bidding. But yes I think that corporations are a good think for increasing the wealth of a nation. I also think that government should have a firmer control on them, especially financial ones. Matter of fact, I think that most financial institutions should not be able to be corporations-- it used to be this way 40 years ago. The big financial groups were partnerships so the senior partners retained the risks. If the groups did what happened in 2008, those partners would go bankrupt, not be given a golden parachute. For some reason we decided that where the government allowed risk was moved to allow people to escape almost all risk and keep it with a fictitious entity.

So yes to corporation and yes to government regulation of these government made entities.

Blogger Azimus August 22, 2019 5:04 PM  

In usury you have some pretty clear Biblical passages. Banking is the selling of money. Profit in banking is usury. As far as Biblical guidance, what counsel does the Bible give in the selling of goods, and profit?

Blogger Nation-Deprived August 22, 2019 5:12 PM  

What’s a good book or article to learn how the student debt is going to break the economy? I 100% believe it, I just don’t understand and couldn’t explain it to someone else. The moral component is easier.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 22, 2019 5:12 PM  

Nation Deprived,

Read my above comment about 10 comments back. Very simple concept.

Blogger camcleat August 22, 2019 5:13 PM  

justaguy wrote:

thought to be by most economists who are not communist/socialist as a factor


Will you please stop with the Appeal to Popular Opinion?

So yes to corporation and yes to government regulation of these government made entities.

So, you want the entire West to function as healthily as California.

Got it.

You are so laser focused on "limit MY risk to maximize MY profit" that you can't see the tremendous destruction such false entities wreak.

Accepting and managing risk forces you to make better decisions. Limiting risk liability for entities created out of thin air then allowing those entities to funnel profits to individuals that took no risk is a recipe for collapse.

Source: the world around us

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 22, 2019 5:27 PM  

VD wrote:Of course it is. Because money is created from nothing, unlike anything else that can be rented out. ... It is the loan itself that creates the money that is loaned.

Agreed. Me lending out the fruits of my past production is fundamentally different than a financial institution lending out a ledger entry which counterfeits past production.

Renting existing things either is or is not usury. If the saved fruit of my past labors is in the form of an apartment, or in the form of a stack of gold coins, or is in the form of a stack of $100 bills, it's still my stuff to dispose of. Is it wrong for me to rent it out? Is it usurious?

Is it wrong for a financial institution to create money by loaning out a ledger entry that counterfeits and cheapens my past production? I think the answer is absolutely YES, but I'm not sure it's usury.

Blogger Nation-Deprived August 22, 2019 5:27 PM  

It’s a great comment but it sounds like a moral argument rather than economic. I want to understand the latter to explain it to my boomer relatives. They are not going to accept the ten-year-old analogy.

Blogger Wraithburn August 22, 2019 5:31 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Wraithburn August 22, 2019 5:35 PM  

Ominous Cowherd, to quote Dr. Hudson:

"The essence of such antichretic lending is that while the loan typically is merely to enable the debtor to get by (or to pay taxes or tribute), the debtor's own collateral produces a usufruct for the creditor. The usufruct is not produced by capital that is borrowed, but by what is pledged!"

It is a simple concept, just harder to see when we talk about student debt. After all, what is creating the value to pay for the loan? The pledge of future earnings! Certainly not the capital borrowed itself. It is just harder to notice this sleight of hand happening when we think of student loans as "investment" in the "business of you".

Blogger camcleat August 22, 2019 5:38 PM  

Nation-Deprived wrote:It’s a great comment but it sounds like a moral argument rather than economic. I want to understand the latter to explain it to my boomer relatives. They are not going to accept the ten-year-old analogy.

Use rhetoric that plays to their fundamental greed and selfish centeredness.

Tell your Boomer relatives that forgiving student debt won't harm them in any way, shape or form. It won't cut into their retirement portfolio one red cent.

So, why should they care?

The "but muh taxes" argument has no legs, either. We are not talking about paying the evil lenders back with printed money from the .gov.

No. A far, far better plan long term is to make the predatory lenders and corrupt institutions of higher learning foot that bill. They took the risk and gave false promises.

With the stroke of a pen, the debt can be gone, not repaid by anyone. After all, the money to loan the students didn't exist anyway. Wiping it out of existence by fiat is only fair play.

Blogger Noah B. August 22, 2019 5:46 PM  

Tell the Boomer relatives that thanks to their greed they will die as foreigners in their own country, but at least they'll get to take yet another cruise.

Blogger Andrew August 22, 2019 5:48 PM  

Is it wrong for a financial institution to create money by loaning out a ledger entry that counterfeits and cheapens my past production? I think the answer is absolutely YES, but I'm not sure it's usury.

Currency is for spending not saving. Inflation only cheapens your past production if you keep it in currency.

Blogger The Cooler August 22, 2019 5:59 PM  

If the saved fruit of my past labors is in the form of an apartment, or in the form of a stack of gold coins, or is in the form of a stack of $100 bills [...]

These analogues are failing you.

Blogger Iggyb August 22, 2019 6:17 PM  

I don't want college debt wiped out. Not in principle though I'm not militant about it... I lied down in the bed they'd made for me, too young, inexperienced, and naive --- but it was a bed I chose to lie in - for both university and grad schools...

I've already paid off significantly more than I borrowed -- and still owe about as much... I'll go to my grave a debt slave....but such if life...

I wish the cost of education - (and health care) - reflected market forces and had not been artificially inflated by aid and loan programs.... but it was.... and I'd rather have them work on solving the problem for the current generations coming of age --- instead of using up big chunks of the limited $ pie to try to undo the past...

But, if I ran things, we wouldn't have had massive bail outs of failed industries either...

Blogger SirHamster August 22, 2019 6:22 PM  

Ominous Cowherd wrote:Renting existing things either is or is not usury. If the saved fruit of my past labors is in the form of an apartment, or in the form of a stack of gold coins, or is in the form of a stack of $100 bills, it's still my stuff to dispose of. Is it wrong for me to rent it out? Is it usurious?
When you can rent all these physical objects for money, why can't you rent money for money?

Money isn't a physical object. Houses can burn, gold can be stolen, metals can rust, food can rot. Does money decay? You aren't actually renting out a pile of gold, you're renting out a pile of promises.

Applying that abstraction to an abstraction attempts to create and enforce a perpetual motion machine, and that comes at the cost of everything else.

These debates make it clear the choice between money and God as master is not just rhetoric.

Blogger Unknown August 22, 2019 6:31 PM  

Nation-Deprived, if you're going to try and convince your Boomer relatives, you may as well just give up now.

It's not that they won't get it, it's that they won't care. Boomers care for nothing more than their ego, it is the center of their existence. If you shatter their ego, you shatter the very foundation of their lives. Let me give you an example.

Just last week, I paid a visit to the folks back home for the weekend. On the second day, I come downstairs to my father ranting at my mother (and then I) about how all their data (they have a monthly allowance) has been used up and they still have ten days to go before it resets. That sounded inconsistent (especially the billing cycle), so I checked their usage on my phone to discover two things.

1) Five days left, not ten. I'm really glad I caught this as I had to give them a little over $150 to cover it.
2) They haven't even used half their data.

I show this to my father, figuring it's stressing him out, so knowing the math is off and that he has plenty of breathing room would be a relief to him as it would be for most anyone. No, instead he says I'm wrong. So, he checks on his own computer, and the numbers line up with what I told him. Problem solved, yes?

No.

Instead, he calls his ISP for the sake of proving me wrong and him right, and the support that answers gives him the numbers. Once again, they line up with what I showed him. End of discussion? No. Instead, he demands to talk to their supervisor, who again, gives him the same numbers I did, and that's when my father lost the pot. He ranted for nearly two hours about how he had never been treated so poorly in All. His. Life. He eventually reduced the supervisor to tears, before declaring that he was going to get in touch with his lawyer. He never did, of course, as that requires effort beyond complaining.

It's worth noting that the entire time, this meltdown was over what amounted to a simple mathematical error. Nothing more. Nothing serious, and in fact, it would have been beneficial to admit to the error, as that would mean his speeds were not being throttled and all was well and he could relax. Instead, he was willing to be throttled, simply for the sake of being right. Part of me wonders if he just started the mess so he could be the center of attention and for the sake of drama, but another part of me wants to believe that even Boomers aren't that petty, right?

But did you notice a theme in the above? How even when multiple different sources empirically proved him incorrect, he wouldn't budge? That's what it all comes down to with Boomers. They don't care if what you're saying is true. They don't care if it would actually benefit them to admit to a mistake. All they care about is if they can say they're right and go "I told you so." If a ship begins to sink, and a Boomer says they're going to drown, they will not accept help when help arrives, because they would rather be right and drown, then survive and admit they erred in their judgment, because their fragile ego couldn't take being wrong. The worst part is that all Boomers are like this. All of them. Every. Last. One. I love my parents. I do. But damn if their generation doesn't utterly infuriate me at times.

One day, if I have to be honest, I would love to see Vox do a darkstream on how one properly follows the Fourth Commandment when you've got Boomer parents, as there are times when it's hard not to feel some resentment, and I feel like that's a spiritual failing on my part. Assuming he hasn't done this subject already, anyway. I admit, I'm still only starting to dig in to his more political work, as I found him through Arts of Dark and Light.

No spoilers, please, I'm only a little over halfway into Throne of Bones, and I'm enjoying it. God, do you have any idea how great it is to finally have a fantasy series that's more Roman themed for once?

Blogger Iggyb August 22, 2019 6:33 PM  

Though I don't support wiping out college debt (except for something like this wounded vets category), like others have noted, I find it extremely interesting that Student Loans are about the only form of debt you can't get written off or reduced through bankruptcy. Personal and corporate debt can get bailed out --- but not $ put toward an education...

I wish I could go back in time -- to work with my younger self -- to figure out a way to have taken out massive consumer-like debt and somehow transferred it over into paying for college....

I had scholarships for the grad schools but couldn't pay back the prior student loans... then I spent years overseas in salaries that didn't help me pay down $ debts back home... and I'll never finish off that debt.

--- I bet there was a way in the 80s and 90s I could have done something like rack up a mountain of credit card debt (which they were enticing young people to get into) + then selling off the consumer items purchased + and then applying that $ to tuition, room, and board....with future bankruptcy filings as my safety net...

Blogger Unknown August 22, 2019 6:34 PM  

Oh dear, I just realized that my mention of a potential darkstream violates rule 9. Apologies for the mistake.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 22, 2019 6:47 PM  

Fuck off Iggy. Socially Autistic and Boomer is no way to go through life. If you got down this far in the thread, you've seen many good arguments for forgiveness of student debt, and ignored them all.

Blogger Dirk Manly August 22, 2019 6:51 PM  

@109

"On a not entirely unrelated note, there are Booomers in this thread defending usury as good and necessary. Unbelievable."

Silents and earlier used credit for only a couple purposes:
1) Buying a house
2) Buying a car (so they can get to/from work safely to pay off loan #1)
3) Business loans

Everything else, they saved up for, or purchased something today with a down payment, and would have it put it into layaway while they paid it off.

Boomers couldn't be bothered with waiting until they earned something.
They want their toys, and they want them NOW. Because they deserve it.


Remember what I said about the different approach advertisers had to use to sell to boomers:

Silents and earlier -- Because you earned it
Boomers -- Because you deserve it (Because mommy wants you to have EVERYTHING you want)

Blogger Iggyb August 22, 2019 6:57 PM  

Fuck off Iggy.... Yeah, that's the ticket...

Blogger weka August 22, 2019 6:58 PM  

Yep. Should have had a free ride and no loan in the first place.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 22, 2019 6:59 PM  

Bye

Blogger Iggyb August 22, 2019 7:00 PM  

Stg58/Animal Mother --- didn't know this was a SJW hang out.... "THINK LIKE ME OR FUCK OFF....!!!!! insult insult insult...."

Blogger weka August 22, 2019 7:01 PM  

Do not forget to give the property to your enforcers... Cromwell got rich by closing the monasteries, which were doing far less damage.

Blogger Alexei August 22, 2019 7:02 PM  

"It's not unreasonable for a rapist to get some benefit from doing the raping. Usury is immoral. It is wrong. Deal with it."

That's a poor analogy.

Is it the interest itself that's wrong or the endless compounding? There is a utility, even a good, to being able to borrow money. But unless you're only borrowing from family or friends, the other guy has to get something out of it or he won't do it. We could say fine, then no lending. But some things needed for business have such a large upfront cost it would take forever to save up for them outright. Which would kill a new business before it can start. So some lending is needed, and unless dad's rich the businessman will have to get it from somewhere. And the lender's going to want some kind of return on investment. So if not interest, what? A lender's fee maybe? Well really that's just simple interest by another name. Or are you suggesting equity financing only? But that has its own drawbacks and complications.

I get it. It's utterly immoral when compounding means you look at the amortization tables and see you end up paying much more in interest than the thing you purchased is worth. That's why I suggested simple interest only.

But unless I'm missing some big concept - and I surely could be - I don't see how you eliminate profit on the lending side without harmful repurcussions.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 22, 2019 7:02 PM  

Gay

Blogger weka August 22, 2019 7:04 PM  

They need to go back. Going back is not emigration to New Zealand.

All bankers are bastards. We should not care until they forswear being such.

Blogger Blume August 22, 2019 7:06 PM  

@Unknown, I am eligible for all those services too. And WIC and food stamps are all gimme dats. So once again are we against all gimme-dats or not? Nate says we are. If that's true student loan forgiveness is off the table.

Blogger Dirk Manly August 22, 2019 7:06 PM  

@Iggyb

[blah blah blah blah deleted]

And your point is?

Blogger Iggyb August 22, 2019 7:08 PM  

I made my points --- then was attacked with profanity + immaturity typical of the SJW mentality...

I'm new to the site. Starting to get a feel for the comments section...

...but you somehow missed the making of the points...?

Blogger sammibandit August 22, 2019 7:10 PM  

Boomers are impatient. The participation trophies and ribbons were for boomer parents, not their child athletes.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 22, 2019 7:15 PM  

The Cooler wrote:These analogues are failing you.

How, please?

I think most folks believe that renting an apartment isn't inherently usurious. If I sell the apartment for a pile of gold and rent that out on exactly the same terms as I was renting the apartment, is that inherently usurious? If I sell it for a pile of Federal Reserve notes instead of a pile of gold, is renting that different, and why?

I'm trying to see how the form of the existing asset matters. I see that money is a terribly confusing subject to most, and I can see how it would be far easier to hornswoggle someone on a loan contract than on a rental contract. For example, nobody would be crazy enough to accept compound rent on an apartment lease, would they?

SirHamster wrote:Money isn't a physical object. Houses can burn, gold can be stolen, metals can rust, food can rot. Does money decay?

Can I hold you liable if you burn down the apartment you rented from me? Can I hold you liable the exact same way to return the Federal Reserve Notes you rented from me?

Wraithburn wrote:Ominous Cowherd, to quote Dr. Hudson:

"The essence of such antichretic lending ...


Thanks, Wraithburn. I'll think on that. Could you toss me a link to Dr. Hudson's essay?

Andrew wrote:Currency is for spending not saving. Inflation only cheapens your past production if you keep it in currency.

Very true. Currency is one function of money, but our currency doesn't serve other functions of money, like store of value.

Blogger Iggyb August 22, 2019 7:16 PM  

sammibandit,

True, but the system functioned as designed -- just like the dumbing down of education -- as well as making university a pattern of debt slavery...

It all works to make the society weaker + controllable...

Blogger Dire Badger August 22, 2019 7:17 PM  

Now, if only someone with some sense could find a way to kill child support. It encourages trivial divorce, and assumes that children have the 'right' to the same lifestyle with only 1 parent that they had with two.

Blogger Dirk Manly August 22, 2019 7:23 PM  

@155

"...but you somehow missed the making of the points...?"


Let's see

You provide great detail (more than anybody needs to know) about how evil non-dischargable student loan debt is

Then you proceed to your conclusion that allowing student loan debt to be discharged is evil.

Your conclusion does not follow from the facts you present.
Therefore, NOBODY is interested in what you have to say, as it's obvious that you are lacking in logic and critical thinking skills.

And you haven't even addressed the "perpetual student debt destroys society as a whole" problem which is what the entire discussion is about.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 22, 2019 7:24 PM  

Iggy,

U mad bro?

Blogger Jack W. August 22, 2019 7:26 PM  

@Blume, Jack will do, that was simply me blundering about, figuring out Blogspot. Also, the way I see it is this; gimme-dats creates dependency because with the government handling everything, no one -wants- to contribute to society. Student loan debts wind up being so crushing, that you -can't- contribute to society, and still wind up enslaved to the government. If it was simply a matter of gitting gud, and paying the loan, I believe most here -would.- Whether they -could- would be another matter as the lender has made it difficult if not impossible to pay off. That's, by definition, usury.

Plus I don't think it's fair to blame the borrowers when the Boomers told them all their lives they had to do two things; listen to their elders, and they absolutely -must- go to college or they'll wind up dead in a ditch somewhere. They do the second because of the first, and then they're the ones to blame for falling for the trap they've spent all their lives being set up for?

Blogger Dirk Manly August 22, 2019 7:30 PM  

@157

What's the difference between renting money and renting an apartment? What about renting gold?

1) Fiat money is intangible. It has no inherent value. It only has value because federal law makes it so.

As evidence, I give you North Carolina law, in which all dollar-denominated assets (bank accounts, bonds, etc.) are taxed under the state's "Intangibles tax." This is an annual tax.
Curiously, both taxes on tangible items (such as real estate) and the intangibles tax is paid for with intangibles.



2) There are these things called gold banks. Manufacturers and jewelers often take out loans from gold banks. Repayment is in gold, and ONLY gold. No currency of any time is allowed to repay a debt at a gold bank. Because gold has intrinsic value.

Blogger Wraithburn August 22, 2019 7:35 PM  

Ominous Cowherd wrote:

Thanks, Wraithburn. I'll think on that. Could you toss me a link to Dr. Hudson's essay?


That's a quote from his book, And Forgive Them Their Debts. He details the history of debt forgiveness over time, which necessitates describing what exactly the misarum acts of the Bronze Age were curtailing. They did not forgive what were known as "silver" debts. Today we would call those business loans.

Lot of fascinating stuff throughout, for instance private property grew out of the splitting away of obligations to family and neighbors to allow for alienation. It was not the natural state of property in Antiquity. As well, I think there is a case that money is taxes, thought Hudson never goes down that rabbit hole himself.

https://www.amazon.com/forgive-them-their-debts-Foreclosure-ebook/dp/B07QGFZ7DW

As for a summary, without the backing historical details from 30 years of work with prominent archaeologists, this interview of Dr. Hudson does a decent job.

http://www.unz.com/mhudson/the-delphic-oracle-was-their-davos/

I think where he goes wrong is when he steps out of his bailiwick to talk about global warming and the Bible, but those are minor criticisms that do not detract from the overarching quality of his research.

Blogger justaguy August 22, 2019 7:37 PM  

Can one of those citing biblical passages against usury find one New Testament one? Not to go into theology, but I really don't know any Pharisees who follow OT laws.

I can't defend the central banking creation of money and that process, but I don't think that it is tied to interest on loans, risk swaps and other options trading. We have had most of these risk mitigation type vehicles things for over a century, some for several centuries.

Whenever I see a situation really fouled up, I normally begin thinking that some type of government intervention as the cause and look there first. For the growth of the financial sector, I can certainly find fault with self-interested government policies.

Finally to the thoughts above that Boomers were the first to have the credit boom, it was during that time that the government forced the credit companies to give credit to almost anyone who wanted it to avoid disparate impact and thus got the ceiling on interest rates raised to pay for all of the defaults the credit companies would have to eat... As stated earlier this was simply the government forcing others to pay for the risk they force the companies to give to others.

Blogger Andrew August 22, 2019 7:42 PM  

but our currency doesn't serve other functions of money, like store of value.

The functions are meant to be separate. Don't conflate them and use currency for a store of value and a store of value for a currency. Currencies are meant to be borrowed, lent and spent. Stores of value are meant to sit very still for long periods of time.

Blogger Jack W. August 22, 2019 7:55 PM  

@Wraithburn, thank you for the recommendations. If you don't mind me expanding on that slightly, Plato's Laws also speak against usury if you don't mind reading the classics.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 22, 2019 7:55 PM  

"so because some folks don't get fall for fraudulent scams... no one deserves protection or reimbursement from the perpetrators?"

Two sides to this.

Certainly people shouldn't be made to suffer for the wickedness of others. However, this set includes people who didn't make bad choices not having to suffer to get the people who did off the hook.

Have to remember the cutoff. It's not mercy when you can't actually afford it and everyone ends up worse off because you let one person off the hook. That's just vanity, no better than virtue signaling on someone else's dime.

Letting injured vets off? Sure, okay. Letting liberal arts, business, and grievance studies majors off? If the userers foot the entire bill, sure. Else, nope. None of those people had any validity in being there in the first place. This must be disincentivized. If they can learn from the mild disincentive of harsh words, let it be so. If they show themselves incapable of learning....

Blogger Iggyb August 22, 2019 7:59 PM  

#165

Don't know about NT usury items but also don't remember anything against the OT law of debt slaves being set free every X number of years -- or another law about returning property to the ancestral prior owners.

In the NT, the community of believers were encouraged to establish communal goods shared equitably together, and Paul added that the able-bodied members should have to work to enjoy the benefits...

...beyond the community of believers -- perhaps Jesus' admonition to pay Roman taxes - in Caesar's system - likely fits into this discussion...

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 22, 2019 8:00 PM  

"Nothing wrong with fractional reserve banking."

You realize what fractional reserve banking is? It's lending out more money than you have in order to collect usury on... more money than you ever had to begin with.

Ten percent interest on a ten percent fractional reserve means you can make your entire vault in interest each period if you have it all "loaned" out.

Every f***ing thing wrong with fractional reserve banking.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 22, 2019 8:01 PM  

Collecting interest on ten dollars, nine of which don't exist. F*** that noise.

Blogger Iggyb August 22, 2019 8:05 PM  

#168 - " It's not mercy when you can't actually afford it and everyone ends up worse off because you let one person off the hook."

Agreed. We have a limited pie and should limit the government's ability to take parts and redistribute it... Fix the problem so current and future generations won't suffer the same fate...

"Letting liberal arts, business, and grievance studies majors off? If the userers foot the entire bill, sure. Else, nope. None of those people had any validity in being there in the first place. "

The good ole -- Burger Flipper line...

Education should never have become something unaffordable without government subsidy to begin with -- just like with health care...

But I call BS on the Burger Flipper line and this "they didn't belong there in the first place".

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2017/01/23/dispelling-the-myth-of-underemployed-college-graduates/#3ca43e3b502c

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 22, 2019 8:05 PM  

Andrew wrote:The functions are meant to be separate.

They can certainly be separated. They aren't meant to be. Gold can simultaneously be a currency, a store of value and a unit of account, for example. Separating the store of value from the currency means that you must pass the hot potato when you accept currency. ``I must spend it before it evaporates'' isn't a basis for sound long term decision making.

Things are currently all screwed up. That doesn't mean they should be all screwed up.

Blogger Wraithburn August 22, 2019 8:05 PM  

@Jack W.

As I recall, Dr. Hudson spends some time talking about the Greeks and how they viewed usurious lending as evil. However, unlike the Bronze Age nations that preceded them, they had no concept of misarum acts, that is, debt forgiveness. So, they ended up talking about the evils of usury and with no solution in sight, going down the stoic route.

I think that makes the Greek philosophers good for nailing down usury AS an evil. Since we are in the position of needing to deal with the pile of debt though, I prefer to not pick their route of "suffer in silence until a debt revolt installs a tyrant or the oligarchs call in foreign mercenaries to kill everyone."

It is fascinating how well debt parallels God's forgiveness of sin. And I think that makes economies an excellent symbol as, like man, they always fall into debt bondage and need forgiveness.

Blogger Andrew August 22, 2019 8:10 PM  

You realize what fractional reserve banking is?

Yes. And it's not what you think it is. Lending money without collateral and using the person as security on the loan is usury. Collateralized lending is not usury, whether the interest rate is 100%, 10% or 0%. Banks don't lend money they already have. Banks first create money (as a liability to them) which they then lend (booking the loan as an asset). The banker's job is to keep the balance sheet (created and deposited money vs. loans and assets) from getting too out of balance.

Blogger Wraithburn August 22, 2019 8:12 PM  

@Ominous Cowherd

I think you'll like the discussions about currency in Hudson's book. Did you know that money did not evolve out of barter? Instead, money came about from the cost accounting of temples for tax purposes! Money was the numbers in someone's ledgers. Gold and silver worked very well as a physical representation of that because they are easily weighed out to fractions, but most debts were paid with harvest goods.

After all, it is much easier to say everyone owes "12" to the king than it is to say some people owe a sheep, and five pounds of grain. And then you can convert between them.

Blogger justaguy August 22, 2019 8:13 PM  

174. Isn't that what bankruptcy was supposed to fix? Allowed lending but stopped the harsh problems. Too bad government screwed up student loans. Used to be bankruptcy discharged them. But since progressives wanted everyone to go to 4 year ideological indoctrination-- had to change it so everyone could get a loan.

Blogger SirHamster August 22, 2019 8:13 PM  

Ominous Cowherd wrote:Can I hold you liable if you burn down the apartment you rented from me? Can I hold you liable the exact same way to return the Federal Reserve Notes you rented from me?
Federal reserve notes are pieces of paper that represent a promise to repay.

Renting out reserves notes is renting out promises. Promises cannot be burned down or lost like an apartment can be burned down, so obviously the liability cannot be the same.

That our legal/economic system attempts to treat them the same is a category error.

I'm guessing the attempt to treat the abstraction of promises as physical assets in of themselves is an exploit that the usury ban is designed to prevent.

Some clever person thinks there's no harm to it, and next thing you know you have pedo bankers buying and selling human souls.

Blogger Andrew August 22, 2019 8:17 PM  

They can certainly be separated.

If they were separated the imbalances would never have gotten so large. We are where we are in large part because they are not separated.

Currency can self-liquidate which facilitates borrowing and lending. Gold is an asset and when you use it as a currency (borrow and lend it) you inevitably create paper gold and ownership is no longer unambiguous which is the defining characteristic of wealth. The gold standard died for good reasons.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 22, 2019 8:20 PM  

Azure Amaranthine wrote:Letting injured vets off? Sure, okay. Letting liberal arts, business, and grievance studies majors off? If the userers foot the entire bill, sure. Else, nope.

Is student loan debt forgiveness a morality play, or is it an attack on one of our enemy's destructive institutions? If we can destroy the globalists' university scam, should the risk that someone might get something he doesn't deserve stop us?

Blogger PG August 22, 2019 8:22 PM  

It's disgusting to see the way veterans are being discarded like last weeks newspaper. Wonderful Trump et al. are doing something for them.

Blogger justaguy August 22, 2019 8:26 PM  

180: Isn't loan forgiveness just helping perpetuate the progressives' college scam. Getting rid of the debt allows it to keep going whereas now more and more marginal students are scared away from taking the debt-- hopefully going into the trades.

Now reforming the colleges and the government collusion scam-- sure, but that isn't on the table. What is proposed is getting rid of the debt and having the government pick up college--perpetuating the scam and basically forcing a 4 -6 year hedonistic ideology indoctrination of the young. That is nothing that I want.

Blogger Wraithburn August 22, 2019 8:28 PM  

@177

As I understand it, bankruptcy does not solve the problem on a societal level. Merely individually, and even then it still runs into problems. Only chapter 7, which is about 68% of filings, allows for wiping away unpaid debts.

However, there is a process first. Namely, all of the nonexempt assets of the debtor are gathered together and sold to repay as much as possible. Each state has their own rules for what is exempt and how much. For instance, Indiana only allows for $19,300 exempt for your personal residence. So, if you own a home worth $100k, they will sell your home and you get to keep $19,300 of the proceeds.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 22, 2019 8:31 PM  

Wraithburn wrote:As for a summary, without the backing historical details from 30 years of work with prominent archaeologists, this interview of Dr. Hudson does a decent job.

http://www.unz.com/mhudson/the-delphic-oracle-was-their-davos/


Again, thanks. From part one of the interview, it looks as if his thesis is that compound interest ineluctably leads a nation into debt slavery to an oligarchy, and jubilees are required to stop that. If we allow compound interest, I think he's right that that is unavoidable.

I like the old Roman Catholic formulation that usury is making the debtor himself surety for the loan rather than a piece of property. I like even better the idea that compound interest is usury. Ban both practices, and I think we'd have done some good.

I can't get compound rent on my apartment, so why should I be able to get compound interest if I sell the apartment and loan out the proceeds?

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 22, 2019 8:41 PM  

Wraithburn wrote:Did you know that money did not evolve out of barter? Instead, money came about from the cost accounting of temples for tax purposes!

Everyone knows that you force acceptance of a fiat currency by making it the only tender to pay taxes. So, no, I'm not surprised.

SirHamster wrote:Renting out reserves notes is renting out promises. Promises cannot be burned down or lost like an apartment can be burned down, so obviously the liability cannot be the same.

You can rebuild my building if you burn it down. You can replace the FRNs, as well. If we can make a contract that you will rebuild the building, we could make the same contract for replacement of the FRNs. We would probably settle the replacement of the building with a stack of FRNs, anyway, unless you're a contractor.

Remember, we're talking about a pre-existing asset, not a ledger entry which counterfeits a pre-existing asset. I think that may be the distinction you, and Dirk in @163, are trying to draw, but I don't want to get into the evils of fractional reserve fakery, I just want to consider what is and what isn't usurious.

I suspect that if anything is usury, it's fractional reserve banking.

Blogger camcleat August 22, 2019 8:44 PM  

Blume wrote:@Unknown, I am eligible for all those services too. And WIC and food stamps are all gimme dats. So once again are we against all gimme-dats or not? Nate says we are. If that's true student loan forgiveness is off the table.

How is debt forgiveness a gibmedat, especially in the case of a student loan?

For the sake of discussion, let me define the term as I understand it is usually used.

Gibmedat = being given material goods that exceed basic need and functionality, the value of which should be considered luxury not necessity.

For example, we don't consider a mother giving her child a meal the child receiving a gibmedat.

If I am behind a dude in line at the grocery store and he's a dollar short of cash, and I choose to give him the gift of one of my spare dollars, *I* would not call that a gibmedat.

Someone demanding a new cell phone paid for by someone else they don't even know, and the payer not having a choice in the matter...more like a gibmedat in my reckoning.

There are a lot of problems classifying student loan forgiveness as gibs. Quite a few issues that Vox and others here have outlined numerous times. There's a Biblical mandate, for one thing. That's the big one that should shut down all counter arguments.

So, let's say you choose to ignore the Biblical mandate to forgive debt. Let's take a look at this particular debt.

The students in question were told their entire lives they **had** to go to college to get a living wage earning job. The message they received was that college was essentially not optional. This lie is the first strike.

Then they were told, "No need to pay for it; we'll loan you the money, wink wink." Second strike is in the way this was set up. They were probably never told in a way they understood at EIGHTEEN YEARS OLD, the full ramifications of this particular kind of loan. Bonus points for the "you are borrowing against something a phantom job you MIGHT get someday." Go into any bank and ask for a $100,000 loan while unemployed and let me know how it goes.

Strike three: their education was not only a total waste of time, but failed to deliver the promise of a job paying good enough to pay the loan *AND* provide for a living. Such a job does not exist for a 25 year old fresh out of school and just starting out, but they were not told that.

So, student debt forgiveness does not rise to "gibs" status because it's not that they are asking for something they have not earned. They finished college. They kept their part of the bargain.

So, I call bullshit on your weak attempt to morally equate some lazy asshole asking for luxury he ain't lifting a finger to attain to the millions of Millennials out there that got a lie forcefed down their throat their entire existence, kept their side of the bargain, then had Evil renege on the deal and blame them for it.

Their only crime is *perhaps* having been young and naive enough to believe the lies of predators and sadly, their parents.

Blogger camcleat August 22, 2019 8:50 PM  

justaguy wrote:180: Isn't loan forgiveness just helping perpetuate the progressives' college scam. Getting rid of the debt allows it to keep going whereas

What do you think getting rid of the debt means?

It doesn't perpetuate anything if the colleges in large part are the ones left hold the bag.

Then, without the present lending system in place, they can't pick up where they left off.

Stop thinking so one dimensionally. Not having the student pay the loan back is only one prong of the solution. Not having anyone pay it back at all is another. Changing the lending laws and the way schools operate is another.

This list of prongs on and on toward a solution. You are stuck on one thing and don't see the bigger picture.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 22, 2019 9:07 PM  

Andrew wrote:Currency can self-liquidate which facilitates borrowing and lending.

So, commercial paper is currency? Loans against bills of lading and that sort of thing? Short term liquidity to facilitate current production? I wouldn't have called that currency.

Andrew wrote: Gold is an asset and when you use it as a currency (borrow and lend it) you inevitably create paper gold and ownership is no longer unambiguous which is the defining characteristic of wealth. The gold standard died for good reasons.

That's just fractional reserve banking. Gold can be abused that way, but fractional reserve doesn't require gold at all. Today we suffer under fractional reserve without any gold at all. The problem isn't the gold, the problem is allowing banks to create ``gold'' or ``money'' from nothing.

It does seem necessary to allow short term, self-liquidating loans like commercial paper which is secured by the commodities it is used to pay for. That's not creating money from nothing, quite, since the production it enables usually will pay off the loan.

Other than that, I'd say that only existing assets should be loanable. Don't have a stack of gold? Can't lend gold. Want to lend gold? Go dig some up.

Blogger SirHamster August 22, 2019 9:10 PM  

Ominous Cowherd wrote:If we can make a contract that you will rebuild the building, we could make the same contract for replacement of the FRNs.
The ability to write a similar contract for dissimilar goods does not mean that "renting" money can't be usury.

Remember, we're talking about a pre-existing asset, not a ledger entry which counterfeits a pre-existing asset.
A banknote is not an asset in the same way that physical things are assets.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 22, 2019 9:13 PM  

@186 camcleat, that's a good argument, but here's a better one: Destroying the student loan industry hurts our deadly globohomo enemies. Case closed.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 22, 2019 9:19 PM  

@189 Hamster, you're telling me that if I trade money for an apartment, I can lease it out and it's not usury. If I trade the apartment for money, I can lease it out and it is usury.

What definition of usury makes both true? What is the essential quality that makes an act or an agreement usurious?

Blogger camcleat August 22, 2019 9:21 PM  

Ominous Cowherd wrote:@186 camcleat, that's a good argument, but here's a better one: Destroying the student loan industry hurts our deadly globohomo enemies. Case closed.

All arguments welcome.

Those that trigger the selfish greed addled minds of Boomers offer a bonus.

Blogger map August 22, 2019 9:21 PM  

This is a great idea.

The general strategy is to take a populist program like debt forgiveness and cram the losses down the throat of a left-wing commercial interest...like a bank or a university.

Heck, allow banks to collect their losses from university assets.

As an aside, people need to understand that the purpose of the Fed was to maintain the gold standard.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd August 22, 2019 9:22 PM  

map wrote:As an aside, people need to understand that the purpose of the Fed was to maintain the gold standard.

???really? Got a link?

Blogger Vulgar_Display August 22, 2019 9:26 PM  

@ken prescott how does one repossess fraudulent goods?

The majority of college degrees are scams that were sold by every person with authority to gen x and millennials. They need to start taking the money from Universities and giving it back to everyone who isn't a doctor, lawyer, or actual scientist/engineer.

Blogger Glaivester August 22, 2019 9:29 PM  

@71:

Glaivester wrote:
Don't be an idiot. [People declaring bankruptcy to cheat the college loan system] was the scam story that you fell for. [Making student loan debt dischargeable] was a boon granted to the Clinton financial sector donors and the banksters funding congressional campaigns.

That's the big problem currently with all of the student loan forgiveness plans. We need to make certain that there is actually a cost to the involved parties, or it simply becomes another limitless taxpayer subsidy.


[UNdischargeable]

Thank you. I miswrote.

Boomers.
It's boomers all the way down.


(a) I am not a Boomer. I was born in 1978.

(b) If you read my entire comment ( @48 ) It is pretty clear that the "involved parties" I was referring to were the banks and the colleges, not the debtors.

(c) I think it was a little disingenuous to quote only that part of my comment (especially because the parts you quoted were not contiguous and you did not put in any ellipses), because you obviously are trying to paint me as wanting to make a cost to the student debtors when it is pretty clear I was referring to the banks and the colleges.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 22, 2019 9:37 PM  

"But I call BS on the Burger Flipper line and this "they didn't belong there in the first place"."

"Is student loan debt forgiveness a morality play, or is it an attack on one of our enemy's destructive institutions?"

You quoted me answering your question before you asked it. If the userer foots the entire bill it's the second. If they foot none of it, it's inarguably a fraudulent morality play unless everyone who's paying has agreed to it.

"money came about from the cost accounting of temples for tax purposes!"

Circular logic. There aren't taxes without money existing. Else if there wasn't money existing, what was being taxed? Bartered goods? Bingo. Money came about from barter systems. You're just pointing out where were kept the most records of its use.

Blogger Glaivester August 22, 2019 9:38 PM  

It genuinely pains me to have to explain to you moronic narcissists that THERE IS NO MORAL HAZARD if student loans are banned at the same time debt forgiveness for student loans is enacted.

(a) I don't believe they will be banned. Or if they are, the ban will immediately be subverted by some chicanery.

(b) I'm not concerned about moral hazard for the students. I want to make certain that student loan forgiveness does not turn into "holy cow, the government will pay whatever we colleges charge and the student knows he'll never pay it back so we can charge whatever we want."

(c) The only way to forgive student loans effectively is to have some punishment for the entities that caused the problem in the first place (mostly the colleges, maybe some banks, but I am under the impression that student loans are increasingly government-funded). Unless we show the colleges that their predation has consequences, they are not going to change. And any solution that is prospective (e.g. banning student loans) rather than retrospective (e.g. seizing endowments to cover the cost of the discharged loans) is ripe for subversion. Not that banning student loans is a bad idea, but the colleges have to pay for what they have already done if there is to be any guarantee that laws will be enforced against them in the future.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 22, 2019 9:41 PM  

"Gold is an asset and when you use it as a currency (borrow and lend it) you inevitably create paper gold and ownership is no longer unambiguous which is the defining characteristic of wealth."

You're a sick f***. You are knowingly and maliciously lying.

Paper money is originally a written promise to pay a specified amount. Debasing currency is literally removing the basis, in other words what is promised to be payed. Fractional reserve with certificate promises to pay is promising to pay multiple people with the same money, or in other words promising the same thing to multiple different people and profiting off of all of those promises.

Your "defining characteristic of wealth" is literally the ability to make fraudulent promises and profit from them. Go to hell with your father.

Blogger SirHamster August 22, 2019 9:42 PM  

Ominous Cowherd wrote:@189 Hamster, you're telling me that if I trade money for an apartment, I can lease it out and it's not usury. If I trade the apartment for money, I can lease it out and it is usury.

What definition of usury makes both true? What is the essential quality that makes an act or an agreement usurious?

"3 (obsolete). interest paid for the use of money."

An apartment is not money. We both know what money is. And calling "interest" "rent" does not make it cease to be "interest".

"B-b-but money is just another kind of asset!"

I don't make the rules, and I don't make the definitions. I can try to rationalize why the rule makes sense, but I'm no authority on that topic.


You can try to redefine wages and rent as "interest", but that still won't change that charging interest on money is labeled usury, and that paying rent or wages are not usury.

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