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Tuesday, August 20, 2019

Mailvox: team sports and omegas

An omega writes of his experience with team sports and group activities:
You're right about team sports: as an omega teenager, I was lucky enough to play hockey and football/soccer. I endured the bullying, but I didn't know why until I read your post.

I was also in the school's marching band, which was made up of mostly the school's best jocks with tiny number of lesser boys like me. Getting beaten with a mace by the leader or forced to run with your instrument above your head does kill fear and teach coordination through team-work. In no other context could an omega like me work alongside boys this high up the socio-sexual hierarchy. I hated it at the time but your post made me realise how lucky I was.

Unsurprisingly, the initiations were brutal. I was praised for taking it so well when other boys freaked out and sobbed, so respect can be earned, even as an omega. An important lesson.

I punched the aforementioned leader in the face once, but he let it go instead of ordering the band to tunnel me. The rest of the band followed suit and never brought it up again. A few in the band were younger alpha males, and as he was the oldest and the biggest, they obeyed.

I didn't leave and they didn't kick me out. Another important lesson: keep trying hard, and people higher up the socio-sexual rank will admire the effort. They won't give up on you. When I eventually became good at an arbitrary physical activity then even bullies would spread the word. As you said in one DarkStream, being good at something physical is important, even if it's just one small thing.

Thanks to your post, I now see that these experiences are why I relate well to other men - except gammas; they openly despise me - and alpha males instead of hating them. It made it easier to accept my station in life as well as some success with women.
This guy gets it. Accept your place, accept the hazing with equanimity, demonstrate your merit through actions instead of words, prove your loyalty, and you will find yourself rising in every male social hierarchy no matter how low you are on the totem pole at the beginning.

Men genuinely like underdogs, even the ugly ones. But an underdog absolutely has to show that he has fight if other men are going to cheer for him and stand by him.

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73 Comments:

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim August 20, 2019 1:06 PM  

Conflict, tension, battle, difficulty. They are all increasingly important for Christians,and more specifically strong Christian men. We must train in all ways possible for the fight against the dragon, as did Christ.

The following sermon by Douglas Wilson “How Jesus Picked Fights” is a wonderful call to battle against the Goliath we encounter in culture everywhere. “Whereas as some would look at Goliath and fear for how big he was, David saw him and thought ‘How can I miss?’”
https://youtu.be/PPLVY_7yAhI

Blogger Whitecloak August 20, 2019 1:09 PM  

He ain't wrong. A willing attitude and acceptance of place bring pride of place.

There's no dishonor in being the bottom of the pole. At least you're on the pole, as opposed to cast into the outer darkness among the enemies of the tribe.

Blogger DeepThought August 20, 2019 1:45 PM  

Great article.

One of my sons was a nerd till HS. Orchestra, Math, Chest etc... Not athletic at all.

I kept pushing him to do team sports. He went out for the Football team. Freshman year was hell for him as he had to lose weight and get in shape at the same time.

The first few weeks was a lot of throwing up but he never gave up.

He also went out for the wrestling team.

Fast forward to his senior year, and he was Captain of his Football team and Wrestling team. He ended up getting a partial wrestling scholarship.

His friends changed. Attractive girlfriends came and went. He went from the bottom of the status board to the top by pushing through the pain and thriving in this environment. He was willing to change.

Blogger Aquila Aquilonis August 20, 2019 2:30 PM  

Best Jocks in the marching band... This story does not check out.

Blogger Statix August 20, 2019 2:32 PM  

"Men genuinely like underdogs, even the ugly ones. But an underdog absolutely has to show that he has fight..."

Like Ephialtes in 300.

Blogger Unknown August 20, 2019 2:35 PM  

Best Jocks in the marching band... This story does not check out.


Play your heart out 'til halftime, change uniforms, play your heart out, change uniforms and play the second half?

Blogger Don't Call Me Len August 20, 2019 2:39 PM  

@6 - Even in a Hoosiers size high school, it does seem rather unlikely.

Blogger Welsh Woodsman August 20, 2019 2:40 PM  

Ahhh.. high school. Those were the days. Growing up in a very strict Christian home my only escape were the mountains that surrounded our very rural home. At a young age, I became very proficient in woodscraft and wilderness travel. When most guys my age were hanging out together, chasing girls, I was alone in the woods testing my mettle against the elements. Was pretty much a loner in high school. Despite that a small handful of really cute girls made it clear they were attracted to me. But my parents were so strict, and distance from town so far , I never was able to act on the overtures. Never had problems with any of the alphas , got along cordially with a couple of them. A few of the betas were a bit of a problem, but nothing life altering.
Without a doubt your teen years are a formative part of your life, pretty much moulding you into who you are today.

Blogger Rex Leroy King August 20, 2019 2:41 PM  

"jock" must be situational. Imagine being cream of the crop of the band boys.

Blogger LR27 August 20, 2019 2:46 PM  

It is painful to take criticism if you’re a gamma. It is very hard to accept that being actually useful to everyone around you a little bit is better than having your self aggrandizing delusions. It’s not easy to move from an imagined high position to an actual low position in your head. Delta is better than zero but zeroes would rather believe the ridiculous lie than move up a bit and accept the truth as delta feels like a loss of status. Delta is a loss of Imagined status.

Blogger Damelon Brinn August 20, 2019 2:47 PM  

At small schools, like 25 kids per grade, everyone kinda does everything, and kids who are talented at sports also tend to be talented at other things like band. Sometimes you have conflicts--the basketball players can't play in band at halftime--but you work it out. They wouldn't have enough kids to go around otherwise.

Blogger JG August 20, 2019 2:50 PM  

Cool story. Could not have happened at our high school, as it was impossible to be a member of the band and on the football or basketball teams.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan August 20, 2019 2:50 PM  

"School's best jocks" and all I could think of is the dude went to a black high school, most likely an Erkel. There the football team would mostly be comprised of the big guys who could not hit the jump shot and the marching band membership would still let them play B-ball during that season.

Blogger Brett baker August 20, 2019 2:53 PM  

Some smaller schools that sometimes happens.

Blogger Theproductofafineeduction August 20, 2019 2:54 PM  

Accept your place, accept the hazing with equanimity, demonstrate your merit through actions instead of words, prove your loyalty, and you will find yourself rising in every male social hierarchy no matter how low you are on the totem pole at the beginning.

Can 100% confirm. Early on in my collegiate athletltic group due to allowing myself to be controlled by my then girlfriend who hated my team mates. I was definetly outside of the group, barely acknolwedged and barely tolerated.

Broke up with the girlfriend haflway through college and doubled down on my athletic activity. The alpha of the group noticed he and I were the only ones that attended every practice, and bonus training. We were required to lift with partners since I was the only other person on the team that displayed his level of commitment I ended up being his lifting parterner.

From there we grew to respect each other and then become genuine close friends to the point were we were groomsmen for each other. By the end of my time there I had reversed my social situation, I was well liked and one of his seconds on our team.

Blogger A rebel without a General August 20, 2019 2:56 PM  

My parents discouraged me from team sports I only got fatter and more socially isolated. The man in the story was lucky his parents didn’t love him like mine did.

Blogger VFM #7634 August 20, 2019 3:01 PM  

Best Jocks in the marching band... This story does not check out.

Jocks gravitate toward the loud instruments, especially sax, trumpet, trombone, and drums.

Blogger matveidaniilovich August 20, 2019 3:10 PM  

I can confirm about the small school. In my high school the ‘cool kids’ were in band. I was not in band btw, so I have no dog in this fight.

Blogger Weak August 20, 2019 3:10 PM  

This guy sounds like a Delta, maybe a low Delta. Omegas are total rejects. This cat played sports and was in marching band. Simply showing up for mainstream activities like organized sports would Deltafy him.

Maybe that's all it takes to jump from Omega to Delta: just show up and pretend to be normal.

Blogger Ransom Smith August 20, 2019 3:17 PM  

"jock" must be situational. Imagine being cream of the crop of the band boys.
A lot of drummers got their starts in marching bands.
Tommy Lee and Travis Barker for instance.

Blogger Clay August 20, 2019 3:29 PM  

Y'all must be trying to rile Nate. Good luck.

Blogger VD August 20, 2019 3:39 PM  

Best Jocks in the marching band... This story does not check out.

You obviously didn't go to a small rural school. Or even a small urban private school. The captain of my high school football team was in the band, as was the starting RB.

Blogger ZhukovG August 20, 2019 3:40 PM  

Hmmm, I thought Omegas suffered from some defect, either physical, intellectual or mental that rendered them Outcast.

Blogger God Emperor Memes August 20, 2019 3:43 PM  

Interesting. I was a small kid at high school but I signed up to play Rugby League in an open weight division. I did that because I loved the game and not for any other reason.
I ended up becoming a pretty good player but also becoming friends with guys who played on the national junior team. I'd never thought much about it until reading some similar experiences here.
You're so right, Vox: men like someone who shows a bit of fight and a willingness to persevere through adversity.

Blogger Clint August 20, 2019 3:43 PM  

VD wrote:Best Jocks in the marching band... This story does not check out.

You obviously didn't go to a small rural school. .


Bingo. In my small rural HS, fully 80% of the football team played in the band. At least. You would see the marching band on the field at half time with lots of guys in football pants and half shirts, marching in their cleats. They just took off their jerseys, helmet, and shoulder pads and joined in the procession. As soon as it was over, they ran back to the locker room and put their gear back on.

Blogger PG August 20, 2019 3:46 PM  

I can't imagine any jock playing an instrument, but I can imagine them proudly marching in front of a band, in much the same manner that university graduates move through the streets ahead of a brass band or bagpipes. Of course those in an academic progression would likely be less physical with band members.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 20, 2019 3:49 PM  

Conte is out!

Blogger Clint August 20, 2019 3:50 PM  

No one marched in our band without being able to play. Lots of athletes know how to play instruments. We had all-district football players who were quite proficient with various instruments.

Blogger binks webelf August 20, 2019 3:52 PM  

When Boomer & Gen-X parents couldn't be bothered (or themselves did not understand) how to inspire, encourage, and get their kids civilized, fit for society, and to use the means at hand like team sports? Hence the flocks of Gammas sperging together, in horrid dysfunctional teams of similar sad-boys, picking away at the good, the beautiful, and the true.

We get it, guys-- you were hard done by. Neglected, and let drift. Maybe nobody told you, or pushed you that little bit extra to take some risks.

But society, Western civilization, and your little corners of it are at war, whether morally, spiritually, literally, or soon to be. At the moment, as low-status individuals, you are sniping at your own side, getting satisfaction and nerdgasms every time you bother someone.

Time to step up, Gammas. Or else admit you're helping the enemy, and the Enemy of God & men.

Blogger Clint August 20, 2019 3:52 PM  

We also had athletes involved in Drama, to include musicals. Some of y'all went to some sucky schools.

Blogger ar10308 August 20, 2019 4:14 PM  

This wouldn't be uncommon at a smaller school with class sizes at around 100-150 people.
At larger suburban schools of graduating classes of 250 or more and this would be much less likely or impossible.

But yes, I myself have seen how you can establish yourself and rise in the hierarchy by just showing up and withstanding the adversity. Half of life is just showing up and the other half is shutting up when it sucks.

Blogger Damelon Brinn August 20, 2019 4:26 PM  

Also, small schools in my day didn't have football. There simply weren't enough students to field a team. The jocks played basketball and baseball (or volleyball for the girls), and that still left time for band and other extracurricular activities.

Now I'm told a lot of the small schools around here group together with several others to have a joint regional football team, so maybe that's not so much the case now.

Blogger Dirk Manly August 20, 2019 4:45 PM  

@4

"Best Jocks in the marching band... This story does not check out."

It's not as uncommon as you might think.

I've heard of high school marching bands doing half-time shows in which a sizeable percentage of the band is also on the team, performing in their football uniform (no time to change).

Blogger LP916 August 20, 2019 4:54 PM  

If only women understood what men endure to become men...

Blogger JonM August 20, 2019 5:06 PM  

@34: The male to female trangendereds have to learn that lesson the hard way. A few of them have written about their experiences smashing into the wall of indifference that men face every day. One or two stories even slipped through the media censors.

Blogger Unknown August 20, 2019 5:08 PM  

@33,
Dirk, thank you for that. I did not know.
God bless

Blogger Matamoros August 20, 2019 5:12 PM  

LP916 wrote:If only women understood what men endure to become men...

As I told my son-in-law, there is the world of men, and the world of not-men.

Blogger Noah B. August 20, 2019 5:14 PM  

At my high school, which had a total of about 1300 students, there also wasn't much crossover between the football team and the band. Both the band directors and football coaches insisted the people pick one or the other and most people did. There also wasn't much overlap between rodeo and football.

Blogger SirHamster August 20, 2019 5:21 PM  

ZhukovG wrote:Hmmm, I thought Omegas suffered from some defect, either physical, intellectual or mental that rendered them Outcast.
SSH can describes one's social state, and one's natural tendencies.

Whether for reasons internal or external, marginal cases can overcome their natural tendencies to live in a higher rank.

Blogger Damelon Brinn August 20, 2019 5:29 PM  

I can't imagine any jock playing an instrument

That may be because entertainment has pounded away so relentlessly with the caricature of the dumb jock, the awkward nerd, etc., as if talent in one area means you have to lack in another, like distributing attribute points in an RPG game. Sometimes it works out that way; but in general, good genes are good genes, and it's not unusual for a good athlete to also be an A student and a good musician and so on.

Revenge of the Nerds has a lot to answer for.

Blogger tublecane August 20, 2019 5:43 PM  

I played hockey and baseball, never was the model athlete but got along fine with everyone. Ironically, the most hazing I ever experienced was with my best friend, who was I think what you call a Sigma. That was constant throughout the decade or so I knew him. I could fight him physically, though he was much taller. It was more psychological warfare.

For instance, we were shooting a little video that involved a stunt where we pretend he's throwing me off a roof (then cut to a dummy falling). We didn't really rehearse ahead of time, and in the tape you can see I'm hesitant because I legitimately fear he might actually throw me off.

From the outside, we appeared in harmony. Which as I type that makes it sound like an abusive relationship, but I knew my place.

Blogger Latigo3 August 20, 2019 5:58 PM  

Yeah, this guy does get it. Being in a marching band and a jock is not such a strange thing, for several years I was in a band and played soccer at the same time, until soccer began to take all of my time I had to give up on the trumpet and band. Band was fun though, I remember being 11 years old and playing in a high school band, riding in the back of the bus with the cheer leaders on the way to football games, too much fun!

Blogger Dirk Manly August 20, 2019 6:14 PM  

High school in 5th grade?

Blogger Titanium Bear August 20, 2019 6:50 PM  

I never understood Luke 14:7-11 until i applied it to the excellent summation. "Take the lesser seat." I am dim sometimes becauuse i have taken too many shots to the head. The last time the bones in my nose were broken was at Coal Mtn Dojo. We were practicing one-steps, and Big Doug bent my nose with an uppercut.

Blogger Doktor Jeep August 20, 2019 7:19 PM  

Yes

Blogger Dave Dave August 20, 2019 7:33 PM  

Team sports teach you how to lose. After five years on a basketball team, we didn't win a single game. We never expected to win. And we tried our hardest each week and shook hands with the winners after every game. When you lose, you think about what you could have done differently and what your opponents did better than you. Sometimes it's your fault you lost, and in that case you work hard to do better in the future. Other times, there was nothing you could have done to play better and the opponents gave you such a beating because the difference in skill was very large.

Blogger Dave Dave August 20, 2019 7:37 PM  

@10. I've never understood the aversion to criticism. There's obviously a difference between good criticism and dickhead criticism, but generally it's the former. If you're doing something wrong, why wouldn't you want to know what it is and how to fix it? Gammas are surely broken people if they can't handle criticism.

Blogger Scire August 20, 2019 8:08 PM  

Rudy writ small

Blogger Aquila Aquilonis August 20, 2019 8:08 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Jeff Weimer August 20, 2019 8:09 PM  

I was an omega in high school - no sports, no nothing. Joined the Navy and that burned that shit right out. If you couldn't handle that kind of hazing (crow-tacking, crossing the line, CPO initiation, etc.) you got no business being there; they'll eat you alive.

Blogger Dave Dave August 20, 2019 8:14 PM  

@50. We have a compassion for the omegas because we know you guys can change. Often, you want to change and will do what you must to do it. There are lots of stories of the loner that joins a group and becomes a normal person. But there are very few stories of the gamma joining a group and becoming normal. They join groups and always make it worse for everyone else. In many cases the group will disband because of the gamma.

Blogger Nate73 August 20, 2019 8:23 PM  

I had a friend in college who said he didn't think the athletes deserved to be there because they just sportsball. I played devil's advocate and said maybe it requires as much effort as intellectual tasks. It's hard to make the connection between the physical and the teamwork aspect if you've never done it.

Blogger Latigo3 August 20, 2019 8:33 PM  

@43. Yeah, I know but that was the case. It was a Catholic school in Los Angeles, called Salesian High School. We marched in all sorts of parades, etc.

Blogger JAG August 20, 2019 9:29 PM  

Nate73 wrote:I had a friend in college who said he didn't think the athletes deserved to be there because they just sportsball. I played devil's advocate and said maybe it requires as much effort as intellectual tasks. It's hard to make the connection between the physical and the teamwork aspect if you've never done it.

I made it as far as 2 weeks at the JC level in football. It was no small task to memorize the playbook which was expected by the second practice. That took more brain power than all but a handful of academic courses.

Blogger Doktor Jeep August 20, 2019 9:39 PM  

When I was younger the best thing an Omega could do was at least learn how to act normal.
Then they took away all the means.
They are working on removing all the reasons.

Blogger JonM August 20, 2019 9:51 PM  

The ever-present chorus of doubters blow an ill wind in these posts and threads. Stories like this are to be celebrated - they are a prodigal son moment where the brotherhood of men should cheer as one of our own steps back from the brink. And yet we always have those who sneer and posture that surely this man couldn't have accomplished the task of bettering himself.

Please, for your own sake, don't be that guy.

Blogger PG August 20, 2019 10:21 PM  

40. Damelon Brinn

Yes, it's likely some sort of cultural pressure. Where I live, playing a trumpet, trombone, clarinet, flute, violin et al is seen as very unmanly. Acceptable instruments would be, a large shell, an animal horn, some sort of air horn, a guitar or drums, and no not the drum you carry as part of a marching band. Admittedly, revenge of the nerds was well received here.

Blogger RedJack August 20, 2019 10:22 PM  

Grew up in a small school. Everyone was in band. Jocks, nerds, everyone.
Didn't play many sports, had to farm. The jocks started to respect me the summer I worked three of them into the ground. Football coach was a friend of my Dad's and sent them to the hog farm to "show them real work". I would be up when they arrived, worked till long after they went home.

That is part of being a man. Knowing your role. I wasn't going to be a big football guy, but I was strong and smart. And while I put with crap, I would defend myself without hesitation. Lost fights, won some.

Blogger Unknown August 20, 2019 10:34 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Dantheman August 20, 2019 10:37 PM  

I just simply want to follow in this guy's footstep. As an Omega who is in high school, I've forced myself to play soccer/football, lacrosse, and wrestling just to change my omega behaviors and accept the hierarchy. Thank you Vox for sharing this post. This is inspiration for me.

Blogger cyrus83 August 20, 2019 11:20 PM  

I regret not having played team sports in high school, it would have been good preparation for working with the alphas at work, I feel like a fish out of water in that environment.

Blogger Jack Amok August 20, 2019 11:39 PM  

Best Jocks in the marching band... This story does not check out.

A generation ago, this probably wasn't uncommon in smaller schools. Today? Sheesh, I dunno, my kid's friends who are in Band spend way too much time in Band to manage playing sports. The NCAA would sanction a college for having the football players practice as much as the local High School makes the band practice.

said maybe it requires as much effort as intellectual tasks. It's hard to make the connection between the physical and the teamwork aspect if you've never done it.

Researchers are finding a connection between brain development and playing catch. It takes some brainpower to track (or plan the trajectory) of a ball, and to coordinate all the muscles needed to do the physical activity.

Also, elderly patients with brain wasting neurological diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's often show great results from physical activity like dancing. Our bodies don't move without our brains. Playing sports almost certainly helps a person maximize their intellectual potential, however high or low that may be.

Blogger Sean August 20, 2019 11:39 PM  

Very nice... I had a late omega Christian friend who went through similar trials in his high school years. But over the years, became quite the man. You can see at his funeral how much he was appreciated.

The other day, my mother (who doesn't understand the trials of men) was telling my son (who was having a little biff with his cousin) that in situations like this, get an adult to help you. I was like "yeah right" and had to put a stop to this advice quickly.

Blogger Brutus August 21, 2019 12:48 AM  

It MUST be regional. There were one or two, at a couple of schools, team players who also were in the band. They did as described above--rushed and changed for the halftime gig, then rushed back into uniform. But none were even remotely jocks or even among the better players.

I in fact am a graduate of the school "Hoosiers" was based on. I graduated in the early 90s. Jocks, the more masculine guys, etc., and the band generally didn't blend well. There were a few guys, drummers, at a few schools, but not many. One or two at a few schools. They were not athletes, but masculine, maybe a little alpha. But closer to troublemakers and the image of the 50s hood rather than the clean cut jock. This same situation held for all the surrounding area and states. I think it is/was the same further down South, too. A few outliers here and there, no doubt.

Blogger Jill in StL August 21, 2019 12:54 AM  

Vox is 100% correct about rural schools - at least half the football and baseball jocks in my school were also in band - marching band and the school band. One-third were in chorus and at least 5 starred and/or had significant roles in our annual school musical. No one made fun of the alpha jocks for their music skills and the band/chorus girls were often also the cheerleaders as well. No one thought lesser of the jocks/alphas for being in band nor chorus.

Blogger Varuna August 21, 2019 3:20 AM  

From my experience team sports gives confidence to omegas(low status kids) only if they're very passionate about that sport, cause that passion will help them improve their performance on the field & thus gain the respect of their peers.

But if u're Omega & u are not passionate about the team sport u're playing, u joined just to socialise with the kids hierarchy then u are up for an awakening, cause no one wants useless men around, u must be a decent player if u wanna gain some respect. & for some weird ass reason low status kids most of times fail at sports, hard to be good in sports when u have low confidence & are bullied all the time.

Blogger Dirk Manly August 21, 2019 5:29 AM  

@64

"There were a few guys, drummers, at a few schools, but not many. One or two at a few schools. They were not athletes, but masculine, maybe a little alpha. But closer to troublemakers and the image of the 50s hood rather than the clean cut jock."

The correlation between drummers and trouble-makers is extremely high in both directions.

Blogger VD August 21, 2019 6:18 AM  

At my high school, which had a total of about 1300 students, there also wasn't much crossover between the football team and the band.

In rural schools, the senior class of 1989 averaged 74 students. The four-year high school enrollment averaged 309 for rural schools and 1368 for urban schools.

Sweet St. Statistics, but you skeptics are observably a) solipsistic and b) stupid.

Blogger Harambe August 21, 2019 7:00 AM  

Hell, in my high school the "jocks" were outmatched by the rejects we took in from neighbouring towns who could beat the crap out of them because a) they were from places where fighting was a way of life and b) they were all one or two years older than everyone else. My best friend in high school was a 21 year old dude everyone called "Oupa" (Grandpa). Never played Rugby, but he could probably punch someone's jaw clean off without even trying.

Which is my way of saying it's not always the Football (or rugby) team that gets the strongest guys.

Blogger dc.sunsets August 21, 2019 8:47 AM  

This OP and ensuing comments remind me that one man's life experience can rarely be generalized. My freshman class numbered almost a thousand, and my experience in team sports was quite different. And hazing in a later situation taught me a series of lessons about the weakness and depravity of men.

Such experiences formed part of the basis of how I raised my sons. Given their success as adults, my approach stands on solid ground.

Blogger Avalanche August 21, 2019 9:06 AM  

@67 The correlation between drummers and trouble-makers is extremely high in both directions."

And -- on the other hands -- percussionists are the SEXIEST, most attractive men in the orchestra, second only to the conductor! I don't about in bands - my background is all classical, all the time. But: whoo hoo, yummy!

Dunno if it's having learned to manage multiple rhythms across a single human body or if drumming attracts the guys who have the alpha traits of confidence and girl-mgmt?

Blogger dc.sunsets August 21, 2019 9:44 AM  

@60 I pity any adolescent forced to seek a surrogate father in an Internet blog. It strikes me as parallel to those who learn how to navigate life by watching TV. But in this Age of Entitlement, wise parenting is often crowded out, replaced by the pursuit of self-actualization.

Just as everyone brightens a room, some by entering, others by leaving, we can learn something from everyone. The trick is discriminating what lesson is taught.

I'm reading an interesting book about Stoicism. https://www.amazon.com/How-Think-Like-Roman-Emperor/dp/1250196620/

Blogger Unknown August 21, 2019 1:18 PM  

There were about 90 in my class.

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