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Monday, September 23, 2019

The lethal poison of debt

Usury eventually kills every company that grows through debt, and sooner or later, it will kill the economy too:
There were tears at Thomas Cook's Peterborough headquarters today as 9,000 UK staff lost their jobs and 12,000 more around the world are also of work after the world's oldest and most famous travel operator officially went bust at 2am.

The company's check-in desks at the 20-plus UK airports the business flew from are shut today with all customers with holidays and flights told they are cancelled - but many will not get their money back for months. 600 high street store are also locked up today.

 Last-minute talks to try and rescue the ailing firm collapsed last night with nobody willing to service its £1.7billion debt, and the Civil Aviation Authority announced the end for the 178-year-old company in the early hours of this morning.

Boris Johnson today said that the Government had been asked to bail-out the business with £150million of taxpayers' money but they had refused.

He said: 'Clearly that's a lot of taxpayers' money and sets up, as people will appreciate, a moral hazard in the case of future such commercial difficulties that companies face.
The math of usury is clear and impossible. Real growth can never keep up with compounding interest. This is why debt is evil and why regular debt jubilees are necessary, even though the usurers use all of their power to try to prevent their victims from escaping.

Think about how many of these historical, century-old companies that are suddenly collapsing almost overnight. There isn't any saving them. There isn't any way out. And the catastrophic consequence of these inevitable failures is why these companies should not be permitted to grow so big in the first place.

Remember, corporations are NOT capitalism. They are government interventions in the economy, artificial creations in which the government absolves the normal legal responsibilities of the shareholders and executives.

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177 Comments:

Blogger SciVo September 23, 2019 5:46 AM  

The math of usury is clear and impossible. Real growth can never keep up with compounding interest. This is why debt is evil and why regular debt jubilees are necessary, even though the usurers use all of their power to try to prevent their victims from escaping.

That is as clear of a statement of the problem as I have ever heard. But certainly debt in the short run serves a use, to jump-start an enterprise or just drag some future spending into the now. Where is the cutoff?

Blogger Sillon September 23, 2019 6:11 AM  

@1

Where is the cutoff?

In not spending more than what you earn, in not trying to endlessly inflate the valuation of the company so you can sell it on the stock market.

Basically some morals... Well.

Blogger Randomatos September 23, 2019 6:12 AM  

A potential cutoff between investment and usury is that investment acknowledges the potential for loss. Usury passes laws to deny reality and prevent the victim from discharging the bankrupting debt.

Blogger Brett baker September 23, 2019 6:13 AM  

It depends on whether or not the debt enables you to make enough money to pay it back.

Blogger Felix Bellator September 23, 2019 6:29 AM  

What is a good reference on the historical use of debt to finance industrialization? Looking at the cost of the means of production now given our level of technology (LoT), I would hazard a guess that we could sustain the LoT. But were we able to reach this LoT without debt as we have now or was it structured differently in the past? Would we have needed an alternate or slower path to achieve the current LoT?

Blogger maniacprovost September 23, 2019 6:55 AM  

In the past, companies borrowed money that they could use for organic growth with a ROI greater than the interest. This is usually naturally a small amount, so even if the project fails the company can pay it back from other profits. Small new companies would fail at a high rate but they would be failing anyway since this means they aren't making any profits.

Now, companies borrow as much as they possibly can to inflate their stock price. Once fully inflated, any misstep will pop the balloon.

Blogger JACIII September 23, 2019 6:59 AM  

Financing growth and If You Aren't Growing You're Dying are two foundational pillars of modern business school.

It's just a coincidence they encourage continuous debt acquisition. /s

Blogger Stilicho September 23, 2019 7:10 AM  

Size matters. No small, privately held corporation can get a loan without the personal guarantee of the owner/majority shareholder.

The large, publicly traded corporation, however, has no such restrictions. It can borrow from banks, the govt, the bond market, and from private equity without any individual with agency being responsible for the debt. Therefore, individuals running a corporation are highly incentivized to borrow for personal gain (to fund buybacks that increase share price, fuel short term growth, etc.--anything that will result in bonuses, raises, or increased share price/wealth for that individual) while the legal system effectively socializes the inevitable loss (bourn by shareholders, debt holders, govt/people, employees, pensioners, customers, vendors, etc.). The only "winners" in such scenarios are those who got money out of the system early enough to avoid the collapse (at least more money than such a person's share of socialized costs). Sound familiar? It should. It's no different than a typical ponzi scheme, except that it might inadvertently produce a product/service of value along the way and it is not only legal, but actively encouraged and incentivized by amenable authorities.

Blogger Stilicho September 23, 2019 7:17 AM  

Also note that corporate boards, which are supposed to be a safeguard against bad and foolish behavior by corporate executives are no such thing. They are effectively self-perpetuating clubs of other corporate executives (from non-competing companies, institutional investors, or retired CEO's). It's an exclusive club and you ain't in it. The only time this changes is when a large/institutional investor replaces some board members with his own consiglieres (who are just different members of that same club).

Blogger RedJack September 23, 2019 7:28 AM  

See it a lot in ag. Lots of people buying assets with debt they can't make the payments for. We are heading to a crash

Blogger Dirk Manly September 23, 2019 7:29 AM  

Since corporations are unnatural, and as such, are creations of the state, perhaps we need a new law regarding corporations.

Since if you have two companies, A & B, and the CEO of company A shouldn't sit on B's board if B's CEO is on A's board....because this results in an "I'll help you gut your company if you help me gut mine!" ethic. And the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) isn't enforcing this law (and likely doesn't even know how to do so)... and since the C*O class has proven themselves to be entirely dishonest and willing to violate this law for any sort of financial gain possible:

Stiffen the law: ANYBODY who is an executive officer of ANY corporation is flat out prohibited from serving on the Board of ANY other corporation.

Ta-dah, no more mutual back-scratching at the expense of shareholders, employees, and the taxpayers (unemployment when the company gets fully busted out).

Besides, if you're the CEO of a publicly held corporation, you shouldn't have even an hour, let alone whole days, to go fly off to some distant city to do your work as a director on the board of some other corporation. Board members should be people who are otherwise retired.

Blogger Dirk Manly September 23, 2019 7:31 AM  

@RedJack

Farms buying more land on credit.

If it's corporate farms -- good. That means it will be available to family farms for cheap.

If it's family farms doing it... not good -- the land will wind up in corporate farms.

Blogger VD September 23, 2019 7:32 AM  

Since corporations are unnatural, and as such, are creations of the state, perhaps we need a new law regarding corporations.

Just zip it, Dirk. You clearly have nothing to offer this particular discussion. You're talking to hear yourself talk.

Blogger God Emperor Memes September 23, 2019 7:32 AM  

I've been advocating the reinstitution of Debtors' Prison. - I'd love to see every Muslim "property developer" in Sydney get locked up. More than a few Goldbergsteinowitzes would have to unshackle their vaults, too.

Blogger basementhomebrewer September 23, 2019 7:42 AM  

The only time this changes is when a large/institutional investor replaces some board members with his own consiglieres (who are just different members of that same club).

Which only happens on the rare occasion a company is not taking on massive debt and outsourcing it's workers. The investment banks hate that and will do anything they can, by hook or by crook, to get enough shares to install "their guys" on the board.

Blogger Dirk Manly September 23, 2019 7:44 AM  

That sort of perfidery in coporations was the cause for England to outlaw Joint Stock Corporations for a couple centuries.

That comment wasn't some flippant remark, but based upon a couple years of thought on the subject, and what I've seen going on in the corporate world. I first noticed this in the late 1970's when KMart was going through economic hardship -- who were the first to get laid off? Loyal employees who were within 3 years of being vested for their pensions, while senior executives were getting bonuses.

The current system is rife with economic incestuousness, because the SEC isn't enforcing the laws on the books, because they supposedly can't figure out who is sitting on the board of a company who's CEO is sitting on the first person's board.

And if they actually did start enforcing that, then these people will just make it a ring of 3 corporations, or whatever it takes, to evade the law, so long as officers of any publicly held corporation are allowed to sit on the boards of another corporation. Flat out prohibiting corporate officers from involvement in ANY other corporation -- thereby making a huge, bright "do not cross" line is the only way to put an end to the problem referred to by Stilicho in @9.

We've tried the nuanced way, and it ain't working.

Blogger Avalanche September 23, 2019 7:53 AM  

@4 "It depends on whether or not the debt enables you to make enough money to pay it back."

So, a small -- or large -- version of gambling?

[i]Fait vous jou[/i] but then the other players, staff, and passerby in/near the casino may be forced at gunpoint to bail you out?

Blogger Kari Hall September 23, 2019 7:56 AM  

We had a gentleman in one of our previous churches who practiced Jubilee every 12 yrs at his small local business. His funeral had to be moved from the church to the local high school auditorium due to the size of the attendance. He died a much beloved member of the entire community.

Blogger maniacprovost September 23, 2019 8:01 AM  

Dirk, Dirk, Dirk... Setting aside your flirtation with banishment, do you not see that a situation created entirely by laws, where laws are being selectively ignored, cannot be solved with additional laws?

Blogger peacefulposter September 23, 2019 8:05 AM  

The long descent of interest rates over the past 30 plus years has kept the party going. It looks like there is at least one more leg down as 10yr US Treasuries drop from 1.70 percent today to zero or negative.

Party on, doodes.

But watch out for 2033!

Blogger Dirk Manly September 23, 2019 8:12 AM  

@19

"Dirk, Dirk, Dirk... Setting aside your flirtation with banishment, do you not see that a situation created entirely by laws, where laws are being selectively ignored, cannot be solved with additional laws?"

I think the laws aren't being enforced because the PUBLIC doesn't have a database of corporate officers and corporate boards of directors, to be able to see when a circular relationship exists. Therefore, there's no pressure on the SEC to enforce the law, because nobody can see it happening.

Of course, the other solution is more straightforward, and involves the liberal use of lethal weaponry.

Blogger Salt September 23, 2019 8:29 AM  

USATODAY has an article on debt

"America’s massive debt will doom us. That’s common wisdom, but wrong.

"The $23 trillion total seems jaw-dropping, but says little about what really matters: How readily Uncle Sam can pay the piper.

Pundits cite our debt-to-GDP ratio as evidence of a debt addiction. With $21 trillion of GDP, that ratio is 103% — lower than Italy’s and Japan’s, but higher than Germany’s and Britain's. Debt topping GDP sounds dire. But that's misleading. The federal government itself owns more than a quarter of U.S. debt, money the government essentially owes itself. It’s an accounting entry. As an asset and a liability, it effectively cancels out. Otherwise, net outstanding public debt is $16.7 trillion— 76% of GDP. That’s still unimportant.

"Government solvency isn’t about paying off debt. It’s about affording interest payments and rolling over maturing bonds. Currently, annual U.S. interest payments represent just 9.8% of tax revenues, lower than any time in the 1980s and 1990s, when they peaked at 18.4%. If debt didn’t doom us then, why would it now?

"For debt to become a problem, Uncle Sam must spend like a drunken sailor for decades (which he may). Or interest rates must skyrocket and stay there, with the country's interest payments ballooning and investors demanding more return for more risk. Do you see any signs of that now? Maybe someday. But not any time soon.

"Use that same approach to assess corporate debt. Corporate America doesn’t have a debt problem, despite frequent fears that hinge on its debt total alone. Overall corporate spreads have declined this year. To be sure, oil price pressures have squeezed the tiniest U.S. shale-oil drillers. Bonds of less-creditworthy drillers now yield 10.3%, up from 7.4% a year ago. That rise — while rates overall plunged — signals trouble. No shock: Driller defaults are climbing.

But while problems with debt darken isolated patches, debt doom doesn’t loom over America."

Blogger Amy September 23, 2019 8:47 AM  

To quote Billy Ray Valentine: “y’all are just a bunch of bookies.”

Blogger Rabid Ratel September 23, 2019 8:57 AM  

@Salt, USAToday's whole argument is based on the premise that things will stay the same. The debt rollover will continue to happen until it doesn't, and then these people will stand around like in 2008, wondering where the train came from that hit them.

Blogger Scott Free September 23, 2019 9:07 AM  

Dirk Manly wrote:If it's family farms doing it... not good -- the land will wind up in corporate farms.

That's exactly who's doing it. Small family farms have been shrinking over the past 10 years and not because they have difficulty getting the new "pampered" millennial generation interested in farming. They take out loans to pay for new machinery (tractors, robots, drones, etc). This is mostly to keep up with the corporate farms. They don't set the price of their own product, so if the government decides to value their product a little less one year, they have to sell to the corporate farms or risk losing it all to the banks.

Blogger Jack September 23, 2019 9:07 AM  

Remember, corporations are NOT capitalism. They are government interventions in the economy, artificial creations in which the government absolves the normal legal responsibilities of the shareholders and executives.

"[Absolving] the normal legal responsibilities of the shareholders and executives" is the definition of capitalism according to E. Michael Jones, who calls it "state-sponsored usury".

Blogger lckychrmsrr September 23, 2019 9:09 AM  

"They are government interventions in the economy, artificial creations in which the government absolves the normal legal responsibilities of the shareholders and executives."

Can someone direct me to a source where I can read/learn more about this (book, blog-post, etc.)? It makes sense but I'm interesting in exactly which legal responsibilities are absolved and further arguments for how corporations aren't capitalistic.

Blogger Monotonous Languor September 23, 2019 9:10 AM  

The pernicious scam conceived and set in place around 2007-8 as a result of the bank crisis was to deliberately generate funny money out of thin air that immediately put the lower classes further in debt. Then each year, each business cycle, this is compounded, with the hidden scam being that debt servicing can temporarily keep the whole thing afloat above water while the total debt amassed by society just keeps growing under the surface. But there is a law of diminishing returns on total debt servicing to total debt being accrued by the economy. It's represented by an exponential curve, that eventually hits an asymptote. That point on the curve where it turns past the inflection point has already been reached. Now we can all just wait for the inevitable denouement, the crash and burn of this absurdly evil financial debt experiment. And of course, meanwhile, the elites are getting themselves ready for dystopia by setting up private self-contained estates in out of the way, low density populated places like New Zealand, Costa Rica, etc. etc. So the scam can run just a little while longer. Their take on the whole thing: "Hey, we did a bang-up job keeping it running as long as we could. To hell with the all the little people, they should get down on their knees and thank us for prolonging their goodies that made their miserable useless lives bearable. I'm all right, Jack, I've got mine, too bad for you, sucker."

Blogger Brett baker September 23, 2019 9:10 AM  

There are professional poker and blackjack players. There aren't any professional roulette and baccarat players. If you're in business, you're gambling whether you think you are or not. But there's calculated gambling, and hoping to get lucky.

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( that one UFC fan Owen keeps around so you can't accuse him of homophobia ) September 23, 2019 9:12 AM  

"For debt to become a problem, Uncle Sam must spend like a drunken sailor for decades (which he may). Or interest rates must skyrocket and stay there,"


1 - return to normal historical ranges which actually pay a profitable return to Savers / Capital

2 - it's USA Today's position that Uncle Sam has NOT been spending like a drunken sailor since Johnson? what kind of year-over-year budget increase are they requiring?

1972 Federal Budget was $229 Billion with outstanding Debt of $427 Billion.

2019 Federal Budget is $3.8 Trillion with outstanding Debt of $22.8 Trillion.

did the population grow by 15x ( or 53x, in the case of Debt growth )? because the 1972 Budget talks extensively about the importance of growing the economy WITHOUT Inflation, see page 8
...
https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/title/54/item/19026

Blogger Brett baker September 23, 2019 9:14 AM  

If the Chicago Board of Trade, New York and London Mercantile Exchanges decide to value their product a little less one year.
FIFY.

Blogger P Glenrothes September 23, 2019 9:15 AM  

I agree debt is evil and regular jubilees are necessary, I don't see any end to the cycle. The will to borrow seems intrinsic to humanity, all suffering aside.

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( that one UFC fan Owen keeps around so you can't accuse him of homophobia ) September 23, 2019 9:23 AM  

the 'will to borrow' is necessitated by the Debt itself.

unchecked Credit ( which is only Debt secured by the Debtor ) inflates prices such that those who attempt to live without Debt are effectively priced out of the market if they refuse to use it.

see Housing prices. which, oddly ( or not ), are excluded from the calculation of Inflation.

Blogger Scott September 23, 2019 9:26 AM  

Poker and blackjack are easy to get into as a pro with a small bankroll.

Roulette computers have beaten the game, but require a team and a large bankroll to buy or lease the equipment.

Controlled throwing in craps requires a craps table and hours of practice every day. The return on investment isn't worth it.

Unless you have the bankroll for roulette, the table and time for craps, or the information for sports betting, blackjack card counting is and remains the cockroach of entry level advantage play.

Blogger John Rockwell September 23, 2019 9:37 AM  

The importance of Sound money is explained by the importance of Equal Weights and Measures. As it is said in Scripture:

Deut. 25:13-16,

"13 You shall not have in your bag differing weights, a large and a small. 14 You shall not have in your house differing measures, a large and a small. 15 You shall have a full and just measure, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you. 16 For everyone who does these things, everyone who acts unjustly is an abomination to the Lord your God."

"Proverbs 20:10

10 Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike abomination to the Lord."

KJV

With our modern debt based fractional reserve usury currency as representing a violation of the principle of equal weights and measures

Blogger John Rockwell September 23, 2019 9:38 AM  

Leviticus 19:35
You must not use dishonest measures of length, weight, or volume.

Leviticus 19:36
You shall maintain honest scales and weights, an honest ephah, and an honest hin. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 25:14
You shall not have two differing measures in your house, one large and one small.

Proverbs 11:1
Dishonest scales are an abomination to the LORD, but an accurate weight is His delight.

Proverbs 20:23
Unequal weights are detestable to the LORD, and dishonest scales are no good.

Ezekiel 45:10
You must use honest scales, a just ephah, and a just bath.

Micah 6:11
Can I excuse dishonest scales or bags of false weights?

Blogger Zaklog the Great September 23, 2019 9:41 AM  

The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7

Debt is slavery. This is not a metaphor or a scare tactic. It is the literal, simple truth.

Blogger pyrrhus September 23, 2019 9:42 AM  

Embattled PM Boris Johnson refuses a bailout on the basis of moral hazard....The Limeys don't deserve this guy.

Blogger JamesB.BKK September 23, 2019 9:43 AM  

What we see in the US more often than not comes from the federal tax codes, rules, and filings. Through the Congress and administrative state, for corporations debt is elevated and equity is punished. Just how many of their members in Congress, the State Department, the Fed, the compliant Courts, have two passports? https://www.mercatus.org/publications/government-spending/role-interest-deduction-corporate-tax-code

Blogger JamesB.BKK September 23, 2019 9:45 AM  

There is the corollary that this situation can be reversed when the debt is sufficiently large.

Blogger JamesB.BKK September 23, 2019 9:51 AM  

That article could be cited in the future by Robert Prechter in his clippings about the top. Strong candidate but it is rank marketing of the giant theft of claims and what remains of money that is proposed in so called modern monetary theory.

Blogger CarpeOro September 23, 2019 9:54 AM  

Someone wrote to Owen recently on a Bearstream and was lamenting the problems in expanding more quickly. Owen's rejoinder and from what I have seen Vox's various enterprises the same applies, was to grow at a more natural pace.

My wife's last job was at a eye surgery office owned by a couple of small hats. When she first got there, they gave bonuses for productivity goals being met (my wife generally works rings around her cow-orkers). The business was booming, many patients being booked (many medicare patients fresh off the boat and indignant the office didn't provide Arabic translators, along with regular patients). The owners increased targets, made them less individualistic (entire business, no single site or personal) leading up to the opening of a third site. You can guess where it all leads. I fully expect the debt for the expansion and their poor business practices in general to lead to a contraction in the size of their business if not a collapse. Not all growth is good.

Blogger James Dixon September 23, 2019 9:58 AM  

> Where is the cutoff?

The safe cutoff is the point beyond which you can't pay back the debt out of earnings at a moments notice.

The reasonable cutoff is something like 50% of yearly earnings.

> I think the laws aren't being enforced because the PUBLIC doesn't have a database of corporate officers and corporate boards of directors,

The information is readily available, and the SEC has it. There's nothing stopping anyone from assembling it.

> Government solvency isn’t about paying off debt. It’s about affording interest payments and rolling over maturing bonds. Currently, annual U.S. interest payments represent just 9.8% of tax revenues, lower than any time in the 1980s and 1990s, when they peaked at 18.4%. If debt didn’t doom us then, why would it now?

a) Interest rates are at historic lows. They're not going to stay there forever. b) The ability to roll over maturing bonds assumes someone is willing to lend the money to you. That's not always the case.

Blogger Nate September 23, 2019 9:59 AM  

"I think the laws aren't being enforced because the PUBLIC doesn't have a database of corporate officers and corporate boards of directors, to be able to see when a circular relationship exists. Therefore, there's no pressure on the SEC to enforce the law, because nobody can see it happening."

Dirk you ignorant slut.

Corporations are public entities. Therefore... yes... this database absolutely exists... and the information is easily obtainable.

Damn.

Blogger Ingemar September 23, 2019 10:04 AM  

Think about how many of these historical, century-old companies that are suddenly collapsing almost overnight. There isn't any saving them. There isn't any way out. And the catastrophic consequence of these inevitable failures is why these companies should not be permitted to grow so big in the first place.

If it's this bad for Paper Persons, imagine how bad it is for anyone with student loans...

Blogger P Glenrothes September 23, 2019 10:04 AM  

@33 Your statements are true. It's important to note the role taking the dollar off the gold standard played in feeding the debt monster. I blame that on Nixon and the Federal Reserve.

Blogger Mr Smith September 23, 2019 10:12 AM  

A corporations nessaserly aren't. However, usury is capitalism. And as G. K. Chesterton wrote: "It cannot be too often repeated that what destroyed the Family in the modern world was Capitalism. No doubt it might have been Communism..."

Blogger JamesB.BKK September 23, 2019 10:16 AM  

To be fair, drunken sailors spend their own money.

Blogger The Masked Menace September 23, 2019 10:23 AM  

Capital is the store of value. We live within an economic system which inhibits the store of value and instead forces one into debt. This isn’t capitalism. This is indebted servitude.

Blogger Nate September 23, 2019 10:27 AM  

I would like to point out that the places in the world that have corporations and banking are also the same places that have indoor plumbing.

The other places are the shit holes.

Blogger Steve Canyon September 23, 2019 10:36 AM  

Debt lended by a local banker with a vested interest in facilitating commerce within his community is preferable than debt lended by a nameless sort in NYC or London who sees it as a means to gamble with others' money and engage in monetary skullduggery. The former will not take foolish risks because the solvency of the borrower correlates to his solvency. The latter is too big to fail and insulated from the consequences of their acts.

Blogger JamesB.BKK September 23, 2019 10:40 AM  

Capitalism involves voluntary exchange. One may decline a potential creditor's invitation to take his loan. You make your bed, you got to lie in it.

Blogger Noah B. September 23, 2019 10:45 AM  

The combination of private profits and socialized risk is a horrible one that inevitably breeds disaster. We've seen this over and over, from finance to nuclear power. Even travel agencies aren't immune.

Blogger SciVo September 23, 2019 10:45 AM  

Rabid Ratel wrote:@Salt, USAToday's whole argument is based on the premise that things will stay the same. The debt rollover will continue to happen until it doesn't, and then these people will stand around like in 2008, wondering where the train came from that hit them.

I maintain that Nassim Taleb's "Intellectual Yet Idiot" appellation is excessively kind. These people aren't even intellectual. They're educated, credentialed, even well-spoken. But they would lose chess in two moves.

CarpeOro wrote:Someone wrote to Owen recently on a Bearstream and was lamenting the problems in expanding more quickly. Owen's rejoinder and from what I have seen Vox's various enterprises the same applies, was to grow at a more natural pace.

That is something I really admire about McMenamins, a PNW unchain of brewpubs. They are quite popular locally and probably could have expanded very quickly with debt, but they chose to just grow organically from reinvesting profits. Naturally, this means that you can't invest in them, since if you could then they wouldn't have made the same decision.

Ingemar wrote:If it's this bad for Paper Persons, imagine how bad it is for anyone with student loans...

See, this is why I'm conflicted about student debt. On the one hand, the socialists are predictably pandering to the spawn of the wealthy and well-connected. On the other hand, they aren't entirely wrong. And on the gripping hand, if done properly -- loading the responsibility on the colleges, rather than the taxpayers -- it could cripple the debt predators that caused the problem in the first place.

Blogger Nate September 23, 2019 10:53 AM  

people who are on the fence about student loan forgiveness are simply bad at math.


Blogger OneWingedShark September 23, 2019 11:00 AM  

maniacprovost wrote:Dirk, Dirk, Dirk... Setting aside your flirtation with banishment, do you not see that a situation created entirely by laws, where laws are being selectively ignored, cannot be solved with additional laws?
This is the crux of the matter.
As noted in Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn’s Templeton Address: ‘Men Have Forgotten God’.
It disturbs me how many Judges seem so unconcerned, at all, with Justice.

John Rockwell wrote:The importance of Sound money is explained by the importance of Equal Weights and Measures. As it is said in Scripture:

Deut. 25:13-16,
"13 You shall not have in your bag differing weights, a large and a small. 14 You shall not have in your house differing measures, a large and a small. 15 You shall have a full and just measure, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you. 16 For everyone who does these things, everyone who acts unjustly is an abomination to the Lord your God."

"Proverbs 20:10
10 Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike abomination to the Lord."

With our modern debt based fractional reserve usury currency as representing a violation of the principle of equal weights and measures.

Exactly so.
In the scriptures God is very serious about Justice, it is to our [as a nation] detriment to ignore justice or, even worse, to call what is evil 'good'.
Is. 5:20 "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Zaklog the Great wrote:The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7
Debt is slavery. This is not a metaphor or a scare tactic. It is the literal, simple truth.

And the National Debt is the selling of our future generations into slavery, forever.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd September 23, 2019 11:04 AM  

lckychrmsrr wrote:It makes sense but I'm interesting in exactly which legal responsibilities are absolved and further arguments for how corporations aren't capitalistic.

For the second part, Hillare Belloc's The Servile State might be helpful.

The Masked Menace wrote:Capital is the store of value. We live within an economic system which inhibits the store of value and instead forces one into debt.

JamesB.BKK wrote:Capitalism involves voluntary exchange.

One thing that makes change - or even identifying the problem - difficult is the fact that every person has one or more definitions of capitalism, and none of those definitions are the same.

JamesB.BKK wrote:One may decline a potential creditor's invitation to take his loan.

Can one really? Can one, or even two, decline all offers and still buy a house or a car?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 23, 2019 11:07 AM  

There is a perverse incentive that has destroyed thousands of profitable long-term thinking companies. A successful company that avoids debt and plans for the distant future, of necessity has an excellent credit rating. That's a HUGE plum to a corporate raider. Take control of the company, take out huge loans, buy yourself nice things, default the debt, drive the company out of business, dump the employees and move on to the next one.
Pacific Lumber and Hobby Lobby are two cases I'm familiar with, but there are countless others.
This is the basic business model of Carl Icahn, the Bush family, Mitt Romney,and the parasites that fund the GOP.

Blogger Salt September 23, 2019 11:11 AM  

Debt is one thing, what it's used for is another. Debt to ~acquire capital machinery for the production of profits is wholly different from adding debt to finance debt. Loans for maintaining solvency are the bells tolling.

Blogger Nate September 23, 2019 11:22 AM  

Remember kids....

Bilogy is trust worthy because physicists have very accurate models.

also...

Capitalism is bad because governments do really dumb things.

Blogger Ricky Rari September 23, 2019 11:42 AM  

Good. Let it burn.

Blogger James Dixon September 23, 2019 11:44 AM  

> One may decline a potential creditor's invitation to take his loan.

To a certain extent, yes. And I do; on a regular basis.

> Can one really? Can one, or even two, decline all offers and still buy a house or a car?

A car? Yes. Not a high end new one, but a used or low end model. It requires a degree of financial discipline sorely lacking today, but it's doable. A house? Not most people. We could and are looking a doing so, but we're not most people.

Blogger OneWingedShark September 23, 2019 11:47 AM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:There is a perverse incentive that has destroyed thousands of profitable long-term thinking companies. A successful company that avoids debt and plans for the distant future, of necessity has an excellent credit rating. That's a HUGE plum to a corporate raider. Take control of the company, take out huge loans, buy yourself nice things, default the debt, drive the company out of business, dump the employees and move on to the next one.

Pacific Lumber and Hobby Lobby are two cases I'm familiar with, but there are countless others.
This is the basic business model of Carl Icahn, the Bush family, Mitt Romney, and the parasites that fund the GOP.

Indeed; it only makes it so much more perverse that Romney/2012 was held up as a good businessman.
And that Corporate Raider BS is just another thing we have to thank the Boomers for. Thank You!, Boomers, for killing off things like pensions, and training, and mentorship.

Blogger Nate September 23, 2019 11:52 AM  

this railing against corporations is pretty amusing considering how many of us here actually have corporations.

For example I have at least 3. The risk mitigation corporations provide is absolutely necessary for capitalism to work.

Blogger Monotonous Languor September 23, 2019 11:55 AM  

Unending, unceasing debt is but one aspect of the pernicious systems forced in place by the childless oligarchy of the Western world. When those like Juncker or Merkel or Macron, whose entire education and worldview have been dumbed down to little more than a tawdry, warmed-over knockoff of Marxist dialectic that assumes each and every problem in the world revolves around, can be solved by economics, then their brain eventually gets warped around that one-size-fits-all solution, to the point where they are absolutely unable to analyze situations from any other context.

Note that whenever presented the least opportunity, they invariably spew hackneyed religious talking points gleaned from 'Christianity for Dummies', edition 1. These unelected oligarchs are absolutely oblivious to any other form of reasoning, of analysis, of drawing conclusions that don't fit inside their tidy little binary box. Unfortunately they've also managed to control the education system long enough to drag down whole successive generations into their cesspool of benighted so-called thinking.

It will be a long road back of wresting control from these evil and stupid pod people. And believe it or not, like it or not, it's going to take a tremendous amount of physical violence to be successful.

Blogger robwbright September 23, 2019 12:12 PM  

Nate and Salt know what's up.

"The large, publicly traded corporation, however, has no such restrictions. It can borrow from banks, the govt, the bond market, and from private equity without any individual with agency being responsible for the debt."

ARE YOU IMPLYING THAT BANKS, GOVT, BOND MARKETS AND PRIVATE EQUITY FIRMS ARE FILLED WITH IDIOTS?

I hope so, because you'd be right. MPAI.

But hey, their idiocy is the corporation's fault for taking their money. Right?

If those entities make idiotic loans to corporations and the corporations go bust, those entities will quickly learn not to make idiotic loans.

I swear, it's like most of you have no idea how corporations work.

Blogger Unknown September 23, 2019 12:18 PM  

I am not well versed in European history, but the (((usual))) suspects always harp endlessly on how their usury is what fueled European advancement and dominance (forgetting it seems the fact that without fail, every single empire they have come in contact with has collapsed shortly after their arrival). I want to have a better understanding on this topic from a historical point of view. Is there any book that tackles this subject faithfully?

Blogger The Pitchfork Rebel September 23, 2019 12:26 PM  

@55

The problem with "student loan foregiveness" (as it is pitched by the Dems) is that it isn't "forgiveness"; it's a transfer. The individual debt incurred to individuals is simply assumed by the government. It's financial panem used to buy votes.

It is the socialization of individual costs-and if the debt incurred by college students is unfair-how much more unfair is it to transfer it to the person who never "benefited" from the gender studies degree and never signed the promissory note. Of course, the real holders of the "national debt" are unborn.

Until the debt forgiveness program includes disgorgement of the ill-gotten gain by the colleges and universities-it's just shuffling the deck chairs and telling the unborn, "here ya' go".

Colleges and universities prove that many of the most ruthless rent-seekers have a Sec. 501(c)(3) tax exemption. There's no stockholders seeking pecuniary dividends, but academics with a lot of autonomy and unaccountability.

I have a friend that did IT work at a college-told me he got tired of attempting to block and needing to remove malware from the tenured class's machines because of their propensity to use their pc's as personal porn theaters. But of course they all have peer-reviewed papers and courtesy of several of Vox's posts, we know that the irreproducibility problem means their gold standard is pyrite.







Blogger Noah B. September 23, 2019 12:28 PM  

"If those entities make idiotic loans to corporations and the corporations go bust, those entities will quickly learn not to make idiotic loans."

That vital feedback loop broke down long ago. Now we have TBTF corporations propped up by QEternity, stock buybacks funded with corporate debt, negative yielding bonds, and all manner of other financial perversions that wouldn't be possible without massive and continuous government intervention in the economy. If one debt goes bad it can just be papered over with more debt.

The problem isn't capitalism and corporations, it's cronyism and lawlessness.

Blogger Monotonous Languor September 23, 2019 12:30 PM  

"ARE YOU IMPLYING THAT BANKS, GOVT, BOND MARKETS AND PRIVATE EQUITY FIRMS ARE FILLED WITH IDIOTS?"

Not only that, but it's exacerbated by mountains of rules and regulations related to these institutions, allow said idiots to bypass any iota of common sense, wisdom, fiscal responsibility, and long-term planning for the good of the overall local community and optimization of the society as a whole.

And to top it off, they can get away scot free from the long-term disastrous effects of their short-sighted venal decisions in the present. Nobody is going to come after them 10-15 years down the road, when it's both too late to do anything about it, and the key players have been disguised by mountains of bureaucratic paperwork that thoroughly obfuscate any discernible chain of personal responsibility.

Hey, what's not to like ???

Blogger Salt September 23, 2019 12:33 PM  

Noah B. wrote:The problem isn't capitalism and corporations, it's cronyism and lawlessness.

As Congress Critters are permitted by law to financially benefit from their insider knowledge it behooves them to act in their own self interests.

Blogger RedJack September 23, 2019 12:41 PM  

I know of no farmers who are not incorporated. To many benefits. Sadly I know quite a few who are renters on their own land because of foolishly signed contracts. I had the opportunity to go home and raise chicken for a big box membership store. Looked at the contract, and all the risk would be on my family's corporation, none on the customer. Yet the customer also held the option to stop buying at any time and we could not sell to any one else by the terms. I want to go home, but I will not be a slave

Blogger Ominous Cowherd September 23, 2019 12:46 PM  

James Dixon wrote:A car? Yes. Not a high end new one, but a used or low end model. It requires a degree of financial discipline sorely lacking today, but it's doable.

I drive only older vehicles. It requires the willingness and the ability to do maintenance and repairs. Most people are both unwilling and unable, which is why I can find a steady stream of older vehicles.

Nate wrote:this railing against corporations is pretty amusing considering how many of us here actually have corporations.

For example I have at least 3. The risk mitigation corporations provide is absolutely necessary for capitalism to work.


Does this indicate ``corporations are good,'' or does it indicate ``our liability laws are crazy?''

Blogger OneWingedShark September 23, 2019 12:52 PM  

Noah B. wrote:The problem isn't capitalism and corporations, it's cronyism and lawlessness.
You hit the nail on the head here; and this is why I can easily imagine the courts ruling that Google, FaceBook, et al are simultaneously both publishers and not-publishers — the courts have lost all love of Justice, and are now dancing about their own rulings as "law" and imposing it on everyone else… one must wonder, though, how they haven't suffocated themselves after inhaling so many of each other's farts and declaring it the best air.

Ominous Cowherd wrote:Nate wrote:this railing against corporations is pretty amusing considering how many of us here actually have corporations.

For example I have at least 3. The risk mitigation corporations provide is absolutely necessary for capitalism to work.

Does this indicate ``corporations are good,'' or does it indicate ``our liability laws are crazy?''

Both, I think. It certainly isn't helped by the observation Salt made:
Salt wrote:Noah B. wrote:The problem isn't capitalism and corporations, it's cronyism and lawlessness.
As Congress Critters are permitted by law to financially benefit from their insider knowledge it behooves them to act in their own self interests.

All of which loops back to a lack of Justice.

Blogger S1AL September 23, 2019 1:01 PM  

"people who are on the fence about student loan forgiveness are simply bad at math."

Nah, I just want to make sure universities are on the hook for them. Otherwise it's just the middle class subsidizing blue-state idiocy.

Blogger dc.sunsets September 23, 2019 1:04 PM  

Scale is the problem.

If one posits a small, closed community, explaining how debt works (and the difference between self-liquidating debt, which pays itself off via added production and non-self-liquidating debt, which funds naked demand-side consumption) is easy. [Economists can't tell the difference.]

On a nation-state or global scale, grasp of fundamentals is crowded out by rationalizations, and our global society cranks out industrial-scale rationalizations today.

If everyone goes and jumps in a lake, will you go too? The answer is supposed to be no, but in reality, "everyone" doesn't like heretics and they'll drag you in regardless of your greater wisdom or acumen.

You can apply your reason and act accordingly. I started doing that in 1998. Talk about a good idea with abysmal timing. We cannot know in advance when this absurd CIRCUS of monetary debasement and Ocean-filling IOU issuance will end, it could be next week or it could be next decade. But other than getting the HELL out of debt, one has no choice but to expect the circus to still be in town next week.

If you don't realize that the stock market, the real estate market, the market for agricultural land and the entire banking system are all DOWN STREAM of this Greatest-Ever mass mania for credit/debt, I have a nice bridge to sell you...cash only, though. So there is no declining to play the game. You were long ago dragged into the lake.

How each of us fashions our life-ring is a fascinating question.

Blogger dc.sunsets September 23, 2019 1:36 PM  

I simply do not understand how people think this isn't already a mutual suicide pact. When US coinage went off a de facto silver standard in 1964, money stopped being a receipt (an IOU) for something specific and tangible to becoming a receipt for something vague and intangible.

The FedGov (political system) can wave a hand and wipe out college debt. What's the difference, right? The far more interesting question is, who gets paid going forward?

College debt was a naked transfer of wealth from students (future earnings) to current recipients of payments (mostly the vast higher ed labyrinth.) "Forgiving" those debts doesn't change the latter, it only transfers the "cost" to (technically) the taxpayer. Except the taxpayer isn't paying for all the government "provided," as it is.

Political borrowing is simply a transfer of wealth without the visibility of taxation. As the debt soars, it's doctors, hospital administrators, government employees, government contractors, welfare recepients, abortion clinics, community "organizers," etc. who GET the loot...which if you add it all up, few people are NOT GETTING SOME LOOT.

Probably every job in the USA is within 2 degrees of separation from a payment entity that is public (federal, state or local tax authority.)

The whole question is, who continues to get paid going forward? Forgive the debt and continue to let Uncle Sam cover college? Universities will get the loot into the future. Want to get reelected in an urban sh**hole? Helicopter-drop the loot to "community organizers," businesses that "relocate" to the ghetto, employees of Head Start and all the other useless Make-Work BS claiming to save the world, etc.

In other words, Congress can just loot the productive and keep spreading things around as long as the debt game continues. Japan has done this for decades and it has to have crushed SOMEONE's standard of living, there's no free lunch.

I just wonder who will turn out to have the political clout to keep getting "the loot" once this vast folie a plusiers reaches its inevitable end.

Blogger SciVo September 23, 2019 1:41 PM  

Nate wrote:people who are on the fence about student loan forgiveness are simply bad at math.

Nate, the people that would benefit mostly hate me and mine with a nigh-genocidal contempt, and I hate them right back with a nigh-homicidal loathing. So even with sticking it to the debt predators, it would stick in my craw to give our ruling class's foul hellspawn a rotten penny.

Blogger KPKinSunnyPhiladelphia September 23, 2019 1:44 PM  

Lending may be evil, but it's here to stay. Sorry.

I used to work in the industry, and the rules of thumb were:

1. First, lend against a portion of stable value fixed assets.

2. Second, lend against 100% of stable value fixed assets.

3. Third, lend against a portion of fixed assets whose value fluctuates -- ranked from least volatile to most volatile.

4. Fourth, lend against income streams, ranked form least volatile to most volatile.

The further down you go, the more you court disaster.

Thomas Cooks belongs to category 4. It did nothing that individuals couldn't do with a computer, an internet connection, and Expedia.

They were doomed to be dis-intermediated.

Blogger Dirk Manly September 23, 2019 1:56 PM  

@50

"I would like to point out that the places in the world that have corporations and banking are also the same places that have indoor plumbing."

The west had indoor plumbing before the appearance of both banks and corporations. Specifically -- Rome.

Strangely enough, as best as archeologists can tell, the running water toilet was invented in the land of the street-shitters -- the Indus Valley, over 5,000 years ago.

This tells far more than you need to know about the productivity of Hindu/Indoor(*)/Indian culture, and their ability to actually plan, organize, and construct improvements. And then idiots with MBA's put these people in charge of their company's computing infrastructure.


(*) Indoor the cultural group, not in-door, the opposite of out-door.

Blogger Nate September 23, 2019 2:00 PM  

"Nate, the people that would benefit mostly hate me and mine with a nigh-genocidal contempt, and I hate them right back with a nigh-homicidal loathing. So even with sticking it to the debt predators, it would stick in my craw to give our ruling class's foul hellspawn a rotten penny."

this is precisely why we say most people are idiots.

Do you like your country? do you like your nation? if you do... then you should pull your stupid head out of your ass. This is an economic emergency. The economy has pancreatic cancer. You can cut it out or you can die.

your choice... but to choose to not cut it out because you are mad at some 30 somethings... God damn... You deserve what you get.

Blogger Nate September 23, 2019 2:02 PM  

"The problem with "student loan foregiveness" (as it is pitched by the Dems) is that it isn't "forgiveness"; it's a transfer. The individual debt incurred to individuals is simply assumed by the government. It's financial panem used to buy votes. "

dummy. 98 percent of all student loan debt is ALREADY government debt.

Blogger Newscaper312 September 23, 2019 2:02 PM  

@58 Snidely

You forgot "Chainsaw" Al Dunlap from the late 90s in your list of raiders.
He destroyed Scott Paper and Sunbeam among others.

Blogger VD September 23, 2019 2:03 PM  

So even with sticking it to the debt predators, it would stick in my craw to give our ruling class's foul hellspawn a rotten penny.

You sound like a moronic Boomer. You think the ruling class's children need to go into student loan debt to go to university?

No wonder you lost your nation. You don't even realize who you are serving.

Blogger Dirk Manly September 23, 2019 2:05 PM  

@44

"
Corporations are public entities. Therefore... yes... this database absolutely exists... and the information is easily obtainable."


Let's assume that I'm wrong, and that the names of corporate officers and board members are EASILY obtainable.

Post a URL of such a list.

Just because something is a matter of public record does NOT mean that such information is EASILY obtainable -- it means that paperwork has to be filed with the state in which the company incorporates, and updated on a periodic basis. Nothing in the law says specifies that those names be easily obtained by the public.

Perhaps I'm absolutely wrong. Show my how wrong I am by producing the list of all publicly heald corporations throughout the U.S., with all of their board members, and all of their officers.

If you can't, then it's not such an easy trick as you imply.

If you can, then I will entirely withdraw my line of argument.

Blogger Dirk Manly September 23, 2019 2:24 PM  

@64

"this railing against corporations is pretty amusing considering how many of us here actually have corporations."

Just because YOU aren't abusing the public with the various privatize profits/socialize costs games doesn't mean that others aren't.

And there is nothing modern about that game. It was played in England in the mid-centuries of the last millenium to such an extend that Parliament revoked all the charters of the joint stock corporations then in existence, and put a law on the books prohibiting the creation of any more... which lasted for a couple hundred years. This lasted well into the "The Sun Never Sets on the British Empire" era. (sorry, I don't have exact years at hand).

The structure of a corporation isn't inherently evil, but it is a dangerous tool when put into the hands of unscrupulous officers. And by dangerous, I mean a legal means for the unscrupulous to rip off large numbers of people.... whose only recourse is to sue the corporation... i.e. themselves (if stockholders), their means of earning a living (if an employee) or their provider of needed goods (if a customer)... in other words, a damned-if-you-do and damned-if-you-don't situation where doing nothing is a loss, and suing in winning in court is still a loss.a

That being said, I think S-Corps (Maximum of 10 stockholders....not even 1 share held by an 11th person) are fine and dandy, and the upper limits on assets and revenues to continue to qualify as an S-corp should be raised (In my state, $1M in gross income is the cut-off -- that's $1M BEFORE paying wages, salaries, and other expenses.) And probably privately-held corporations, too. But we have seen a clear pattern of wholesale larceny from the public (especially from shareholders) coming out of publicly traded corporations.

Blogger Brick Hardslab September 23, 2019 2:32 PM  

So many people are blinded by anger, greed, and envy.

If we don't address this problem we're done.

It's like the old story a farmer is offered one wish but whatever he wishes for, his neighbor will get a double measure. The farmer finally wishes for the genie to pluck out one of his eyes.

Blogger Vaughan Williams September 23, 2019 2:33 PM  

@50 "I would like to point out that the places in the world that have corporations and banking are also the same places that have indoor plumbing."

Indoor plumbing is just as evil as corporations and usury. And in todays society, people are just as blind to it. Street shitting is bad; fouling the rivers and oceans is also bad. God's way is the best way: humanure. It produces no sewage, it produces no smell or disease, and it rejuvenates the ground from which you are made.

Remove the infrastructure cost of our river-polluting system, replace it with a holy humanure system, and you replace a societal ill with an industry and a societal benefit. Water foulers are hypocritical when looking down on street shitters.

Deuteronomy 23
13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:
14 For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from thee.

Blogger maniacprovost September 23, 2019 2:36 PM  

There's no need to forgive student loan debt when we can merely make it dischargeable in bankruptcy. Same difference. Not really but whatever.

I do think that the extent to which student loan debt is crippling the lives of otherwise useful millenials is overexaggerated. Note that the student loan debt owed by boomers has increased over time.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd September 23, 2019 2:39 PM  

@85: Dirk, after spending a little time searching the intarwebs and EDGAR, I believe that the information is all on file with the SEC. One would have to figure out which filing contains names of board members, then download that filing for each company of interest. I'm sure a team of autistes could assemble a nice little data base in just a few days, but so far I haven't found any indication that the SEC has done the work for us.

Blogger Nate September 23, 2019 2:52 PM  

"Let's assume that I'm wrong, and that the names of corporate officers and board members are EASILY obtainable."

hey genius... pick a name of a corporation... then google "board of directors".

Odds are you'll have your answer right there.

All of this is public record on file with every state and the SEC.

Blogger Nate September 23, 2019 2:55 PM  

"Indoor plumbing is just as evil as corporations and usury. And in todays society, people are just as blind to it. Street shitting is bad; fouling the rivers and oceans is also bad. God's way is the best way: humanure. It produces no sewage, it produces no smell or disease, and it rejuvenates the ground from which you are made.

Remove the infrastructure cost of our river-polluting system, replace it with a holy humanure system, and you replace a societal ill with an industry and a societal benefit. Water foulers are hypocritical when looking down on street shitters."

that's it. I'm out. Fuck this. I really thought there was no damn way to make this thread dumber... and yet here we are.

Blogger Vaughan Williams September 23, 2019 3:00 PM  

The borrower is slave to the lender, Nate. With usury, freeholders lose their land. Then they move to the cities. Then you get indoor plumbing. The Tower of Babel was about scattering Man across the face of the earth. We weren't meant to be disconnected and disinherited. Usury is step one of a multi-step process. Knock-on consequences all the way down.

Blogger Newscaper312 September 23, 2019 3:11 PM  

@92 LOL, I had a similar reaction. I guess Vaughan has never heard of sewage treatment plants? And by contrast poorly amateur composted human manure is a GREAT way to spread disease. Where does he think the "organic" produce e. coli outbreaks come from?

Blogger Ominous Cowherd September 23, 2019 3:12 PM  

Nate wrote:hey genius... pick a name of a corporation... then google "board of directors".

For example, 3M has a list of their board members, and the board members' day jobs. Probably most other companies are similarly helpful. It's a slight improvement over scanning SEC filings for the same companies.

Ominous Cowherd wrote:I'm sure a team of autistes could assemble a nice little data base in just a few days, but so far I haven't found any indication that the SEC has done the work for us.

Blogger Daniel September 23, 2019 3:12 PM  

>>Take control of the company, take out huge loans, buy yourself nice things, default the debt, drive the company out of business, dump the employees and move on to the next one.

In Nick Pillegi's book, Wiseguy - on which the film Goodfellas is based - the very colorful mafioso, Henry Hill, recounts doing this to many businesses. He and his mob cronies referred to this as a Bustout. This scam worked very well with restaurants. They would get a business owner into debt (almost always through gambling) arrange to help him out by becoming a "partner" in the business, move in, take over then immediately order everything they could on the restaurant's credit with suppliers, sell all the provisions to other restaurants, stiff the vendors, sell saleable fixtures and walk away. Henry Hill and his cronies are called racketeers, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, et. al. are hailed and lauded for the very same activity.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd September 23, 2019 3:13 PM  

Vaughan Williams wrote:... a holy humanure system ...

Holy shit, that's dumb!

Blogger Dirk Manly September 23, 2019 3:17 PM  

@66

"If those entities make idiotic loans to corporations and the corporations go bust, those entities will quickly learn not to make idiotic loans.

I swear, it's like most of you have no idea how corporations work."

Have you ever seen the play or the movie "The Producers" ??

Not every businessman is intends to make money by running a successful business. Some intend to make money by running up huge loans, paying themselves exceedingly well out of the loan money, and then driving the company out of business so as to make the loan unrepayable. All while NOT doing any actual worthwhile work, as once they have the loan, all of their effort is put into DESTROYING a functioning business.

Variations are a "good cop/bad cop" tag-team. One set of managers Oops the company... and then sell it off to someone like Romney. Then when it fails totally (since it's a corporation, there's no personal liability at stake) because it's been gutted completely (all while paying themselves handsomely -- with their friends on the board of directors as willing accomplices [see my complaints above] allowing the huge salaries and unjustified bonuses which push the company past the brink.

Circuit City would be a perfect example.

After the "attempted rescue" by Romney, the activity was: "Let's fire all of the knowledgeable salespeople on the floor, and replace them with people who have zero retail experience, so we can save money on payroll (leaving, more for the officers) and when everyone stops buying at Circuit City because the entire force on the floor consists of people who don't know the first thing about running a retail outlet.... x every single retail location across the country... then we declare the whole thing dead. Why, OF COURSE we don't have to repay any of those huge, un-EARNED salaries as the whole thing comes crashing down. We're just .. uh... employees.... suffering a crisis of unemployment, just like...uh... the fired sales team that we fired... and the new replacement, don't-know-their-ass-from-a-hole-in-the-ground sales team which we absolutely did not set up for failure at all.

Blogger Newscaper312 September 23, 2019 3:25 PM  

@98
I remembered when CC got their people off commission, which was kinda nice in terms of not feeling attacked by salespeople when you walked in the door... but, yes, people who knew anything useful in depth disappeared after a while. I don't remember if they directly cut the old salesforce, or if they 'voluntarily' left on their own because no sensible alternate compensation scheme was put in place (genius! no unemployment comp to pay!). End result the same of course, auto-lobotomy.

Blogger Dirk Manly September 23, 2019 3:28 PM  

@88

"Water foulers are hypocritical when looking down on street shitters."


Do you realize that sewage treatment facilities, with large holding tanks, and vigorous (because it's very well fed) bacteriological activity returns water into the ecosystem CLEANER than when the local water company pulls water out of the that same river upstream?


"Deuteronomy 23
13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:
14 For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from thee."

That's instructions for how to keep your army healthy in the field, rather than carelessly killing off the entire force with cholera, dysentery, and all sorts of other dehydration-through-diarrhea maladies which can kill a strong, well-fed, healthy man in less than a week.

Most ARMIES still practice this same procedure (called "digging a cathole") in field training exercises.

Except for the U.S. Now we have port-a-potties all over the place, because it's been discovere that women will, if they can possibly manage it, go for 3 or 4 days without relieving themselves, rather than pull their pants down in the woods.... which also leads to, shall we say, less than optimal health.
[Yet another reason why we need to return to the WAC system -- so that females are NOT in the field, EVER. They belong filling out Adjutant General, Finance Corps, rear area Medical units, etc. Places where electricity and, at the very least, outhouses can be expected to be available.

Blogger Daniel September 23, 2019 3:37 PM  

Related to our discussion: the free trade scam is abetted and the deleterious effects obscured by fiat currency.

Was having a discussion with a friend about free trade. I am persuaded that free trade is harmful to the American economy/nation/people. I brought up the axiomatic equation that Vox has mentioned: GDP = PersonalConsumption + GrossPrivateInvestment + GovernmentPurchases + (Exports - Imports). He countered that the money earned by exporters to the USA will be recaptured in the GrossPrivateInvestment variable, that sooner or later dollars have to come back to the USA. I said hmmmmmmm, "I don't know...hmmmm", but if the world's currencies were on a gold standard or if all transactions were in gold then wealth earned by exporters would NEVER have to come back to the USA in any form. So, it looks like free trade can only be justified - and I don't know if it can be, even in this context - within the context of fiat currencies. In a world of sound money the problem with free trade becomes apparent immediately.

Blogger Dirk Manly September 23, 2019 3:39 PM  

@91

"
hey genius... pick a name of a corporation... then google "board of directors"."


Ok, now find me EVERY example of A's CEO serving on B's board of directors, and B's CEO serving on A's board of directors.

Again, the information "Being available" does not men that it's comprehensible.

I you tried building up such a database of which corporations have officers sitting on other corporation's boards, and looking for cross-oversight and loops, doing it by hand (using the methods you suggest), by the time you completed the list, half of the corporations in your list would already be out of business.

Therefore, that's NOT a solution.

What's needed is one, or at most, two, consolidated lists. With each name accompanied by date and place of birth, so that when a corporate officer's name shows up as a board member someplace else, it can be verified immediately, that they are, indeed, the same person.

Again, filed in the 3rd sub-basement, in a locked room, with a sign hanging on it saying, "Beware of the Leopard" is not exactly publicly available, even if it is "public information" that has been filed with the government.

Going through each company, one by one, as you suggest, would be an absolutely fruitless task. The few instances of corporate incestuous relationships would be brushed off as "oh, those are just exceptions...." despite the fact that whenever you read the biographies of "newsworthy" CEO's (usually because of the chaos they are causing), it turns out that they also sit on the boards of directors at least (if not more), half a dozen other corporations. How many of those are part of "if you vote to over-pay me, I'll vote to overpay you" collusion agreements?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 23, 2019 3:40 PM  

KB Toys is the case I'm most familiar with. Romney's investment fund (Bain Capital) purchsed the company with $18MM of their own money and $332MM invested by the store managers. They replaced the entire executive staff with know-nothing MBAs. Two years later, they executed a complicated dividend recapitalization scheme which created debt of $300MM, including $66MM in bank loans. The money was used to pay themselves $85MM, pay the CEO $18MM, split another $16MM between the other execs. Two years later filed KB Toys for bankruptcy. Losers included banks, Hasbro, Lego, the store managers who had invested an average of $100,000 in what they thought would be their future, and of course the employees.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 23, 2019 3:41 PM  

@Dirk,
the classic difference between data and information.

Blogger Brick Hardslab September 23, 2019 3:55 PM  

Never say never, Nate.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 23, 2019 4:24 PM  

The public is mostly stupid. A database wouldn't help them, it'd only help the people like us whom are already suspicious and care about that sort of thing.

Unfortunately it's not enough to get the information out there. You have to tell people how they should feel about it too, otherwise a lot of them won't feel any kind of way and therefore won't do anything.

Why go to all this trouble when abolishing the legal class of corporation, thereby eliminating the conflicts of interest, is so much easier and likely to succeed?

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 23, 2019 4:28 PM  

"that's it. I'm out. Fuck this. I really thought there was no damn way to make this thread dumber... and yet here we are."

Where there's a will.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 23, 2019 4:33 PM  

""[Absolving] the normal legal responsibilities of the shareholders and executives" is the definition of capitalism according to E. Michael Jones, who calls it "state-sponsored usury"."

Communism may be systematized envy, but capitalism is systematized greed.

It turns out the consequences for religious envy come fast, which means they don't accrue much interest....

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 23, 2019 4:35 PM  

I take that back, it wouldn't be easier to abolish the the legal class of corporation. It might be possible to make the class irrelevant.

Blogger SciVo September 23, 2019 4:40 PM  

Nate wrote:This is an economic emergency. The economy has pancreatic cancer. You can cut it out or you can die.

That is a fair point, and I don't disagree. I'm intellectually right there with you. I do lots of things I don't like because they're necessary, e.g. cleaning a toilet (since this thread has already gone there). So if someone made me the arbiter, I would likely twist my face in disgust and do it anyway.

VD wrote:You think the ruling class's children need to go into student loan debt to go to university?

Yes, I believe that they're such horrible people that they go "oh well I can get a higher return on my investments than that" and force their thieving, vandalizing, unindicted juvenile delinquents to take out loans when they could've paid cash. So you literally end up with trust fund babies whining in their Brooklyn lofts about their student loan debt.

I mean, I don't know. That's just my impression. I have to go to work, but I will check the numbers later, if no one else has.

Blogger justaguy September 23, 2019 5:03 PM  

"The math of usury is clear and impossible. Real growth can never keep up with compounding interest. This is why debt is evil and why regular debt jubilees are necessary, even though the usurers use all of their power to try to prevent their victims from escaping."

Nice Axiom to start a discussion. Obviously I think it is wrong but hey....

VD's moral system-- debt is wrong,, Islam's moral system -debt is wrong. Rest of world that actually grew out of misery and poverty-- debt is not wrong and is a tool. But axioms are axioms. New Testament doesn't condemn debt nor does/did any major theologian after 1700s.

I agree on jubilee however. Every society that allowed debt eventually added bankruptcy (same as jubilee-- but even easier now). I note that the cancellation of student loan bankruptcy is a recent anomaly and hopefully will soon end. Congress had no idea what they were doing when they created a worse problem with no bankruptcy discharge to fix a small problem. The only issue is that the young have little power to fix the problem so it has to fester until it is so bad it threatens the system before the system will fix it.

Blogger John Regan September 23, 2019 5:10 PM  

True, the basic idea of the corporation is to shield the owners (shareholders) from personal liability for corporate liabilities. It was thought this would encourage equity investment. I'm sure it does that to some degree. Who would invest in a business run by other people where you could lose not just your shares but everything you own if they screw up or if the business fails for whatever reason? The laws regarding corporations limit the exposure: your shares can become worthless, but the loss doesn't spill over into everything else you have.

The corporate structure is analogous to just about every other organization: There's a president/ceo in charge overall, both day to day and longer term corporate goals. There's a Board of Directors who meet periodically, maybe quarterly, who hire and can replace the CEO depending on how they feel about how things are going.

CEO is analogous to the president in government; Board of directors is analogous to the congress, and shareholder you might say are analogous to "the people". Or in the Catholic Church, pope, college of cardinals, bishops and faithful.

Of course, in practice lot of problems can occur, with corporations, governments and churches!

Blogger Ominous Cowherd September 23, 2019 5:16 PM  

Azure Amaranthine wrote:Where there's a will. There's an idiot.

Dirk Manly wrote:I you tried building up such a database of which corporations have officers sitting on other corporation's boards, and looking for cross-oversight and loops, doing it by hand (using the methods you suggest), by the time you completed the list, half of the corporations in your list would already be out of business.

It's not so hopeless as all that. I bet ten autistes could each find the names of the BoDs of 50 companies in a week; that's just ten companies a day, for five days in a row. Probably fewer than 500 names for each to cut and paste, total. That could be the Fortune 500's BoDs entered into a database in a week.

Fossick about in EDGAR, find which SEC form has director names listed on it, then write a script that downloads those forms and scrapes the names from that spot on the form. That would take some thought, but that could get all the names of all directors of all publicly traded companies in short order. You could probably do that.

Search for duplicates in the names column and you will start to see what you're looking for.

Blogger Blume September 23, 2019 5:20 PM  

It does happen. I don't know how often but I have a friend who was a from a very wealthy family who went to an expensive east coast school all on loans and got a literature degree. I don't understand it but he did and then his parents went broke and now he is on the hook for it.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd September 23, 2019 5:32 PM  

John Regan wrote:The corporate structure is analogous to just about every other organization: There's a president/ceo in charge overall, both day to day and longer term corporate goals. There's a Board of Directors who meet periodically, maybe quarterly, who hire and can replace the CEO depending on how they feel about how things are going.

Read up on the principle-agent problem. The problem is that when the principles are powerless and agents are powerful, as with the shareholders and officers/directors of publicly traded corporations, the agents screw the principles, every time.

Dirk's hobby horse of interlocking directorates has nothing to do with that, except to underscore that it's a big club, and you're not in it.

John Regan wrote:Who would invest in a business run by other people where you could lose not just your shares but everything you own if they screw up or if the business fails for whatever reason?

That's a reasonable worry. Unfortunately, as it is practiced today, we see that owners have no financial or legal liability, no skin in the game except the trivial bucks they might lose, the officers/directors have no skin in the game, no financial or legal liability except whatever opportunity cost there might be for fleecing the owners too early. Nobody has any liability for anything, and nobody in control has any incentive to not destroy the corporation or the society in which it functions.

Outlawing slavery was a blow against the slave owners' freedom. Is there a similar argument to be made about the corporate structure? Maybe the answer would be to require that corporate managers be owners - all corporations to be closely held. There is far more capital sloshing around the bond market than the equities market, so there wouldn't be an problem amassing capital for any giant project.

Blogger justaguy September 23, 2019 5:38 PM  

In corporate law and corporate theory you have the idea of management capture of the corporation-- Where the day to day managers of the corporation gain control and run the corporation for their benefit and not the shareholders. The powers the governments give the management against the shareholders is huge and it seems to me (IMHO) that except for initial owner corporations (where the initial owner has a huge share advantage) most corporations have been captured. Hence getting the recent BS about a large mass of big company CEOs making statements about their commitment to other stakeholders against shareholders interests--- also the large $ pay the management makes.

This is one big advantage that private equity such as Berkshire Hathaway and Blackrock have when they buy entire firms/take them private and run them-- they get total control of the company.

Of course corporations or limiting liability is thought to be one fo the reasons we grew rich-- it allowed the taking of risks with the limiting of risks. I think we all agree that growth requires taking risks because one does not actually know what the market needs/is and any point in time.

Blogger Newscaper312 September 23, 2019 5:51 PM  

@103 Snidely
re KB Toys, that's some real Oliver Stone Wall Street Gordon Gekko level evil right there. Din't realize it was quite that bad/brazen.

Blogger SirHamster September 23, 2019 5:52 PM  

justaguy wrote:I note that the cancellation of student loan bankruptcy is a recent anomaly and hopefully will soon end. Congress had no idea what they were doing when they created a worse problem with no bankruptcy discharge to fix a small problem.

Assuming innocent incompetence by politicians and hoping something will be done about it shows incredible naivety.

justaguy wrote:New Testament doesn't condemn debt nor does/did any major theologian after 1700s.
"Forgive us our debts as we have forgive our debtors".

Does that sound like a positive view of debt?

"Everyone needs a little debt! That's just normal and healthy!"

So is Hell, where unforgiven debts are paid.

As far as theologians after 1700s agree with you, that only proves they're incompetent at doing their job. Though I don't see any reason why we should dismiss pre-1700s theologians. Cult of new? They didn't wear fancy pants?

Blogger RC September 23, 2019 5:56 PM  

Coming in late on this thread and only tangentially on topic, but thought it appropriate to state that organizing as an S corp or an LLC limits shareholder/member liability except for the taxing authorities because, in those two organizations, the tax liability still rests with the individual. This can be very important in certain unpleasant circumstances.

Blogger Newscaper312 September 23, 2019 5:56 PM  

@116 The other flipside issue with value for shareholders is that the focus on capital gains rather than dividends (thanks stupid tax code!!!) means too many of those shareholders are speculators and not true 'investors' in spirit. So they are short sighted too. The only case IMO where capital gains on stock should have any extra advantage taxwise is a bit of a bone for the original purchasers of newly offered stock. The later buying and selling has nothing to do with putting cash into the hands of the company to expand or take risks.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 23, 2019 5:58 PM  

"Who would invest in a business run by other people where you could lose not just your shares but everything you own if they screw up or if the business fails for whatever reason?"

Who would invest money in a business that was allowed to borrow in the first place if they could be liable for it? No one but relatives.

Blogger Vaughan Williams September 23, 2019 5:58 PM  

Newscaper312
@92 LOL, I had a similar reaction. I guess Vaughan has never heard of sewage treatment plants? And by contrast poorly amateur composted human manure is a GREAT way to spread disease. Where does he think the "organic" produce e. coli outbreaks come from?

I drive by the sewage treatment plant every so often. The stench extends quite a ways away. Being amateur doesn't make the composting inferior. As for the e. coli outbreaks in organic produce, it isn't coming from humanure setups. Look rather to our recently imported citizens who work the fields without washing their hands. Humanure composting is not only inexpensive, it is one of the most effective things known to kill off diseases and pathogens found in human stool. As a benefit, it leaves the good soil organisms intact and
functional.

Ominous Cowherd
@97 Holy shit, that's dumb!

Please to take it up the author of the Holy Bible. If one looks at the original meaning of holiness as "separation", when you bury your stool, it is indeed "holy", or "separate". Which is exactly the way it should be.

Blogger Vaughan Williams September 23, 2019 5:59 PM  

Dirk Manly
@100
"Water foulers are hypocritical when looking down on street shitters."

Do you realize that sewage treatment facilities, with large holding tanks, and vigorous (because it's very well fed) bacteriological activity returns water into the ecosystem CLEANER than when the local water company pulls water out of the that same river upstream?

That may be true in some cases, and ideally. It isn't always true. Before he died, Ralph Rene had horror stories he told me about what was going on in New Jersey. Talk about eating yellow snow...

Just because you can spend a bunch of money to process water and take the waste back out, doesn't make it a good idea. All the energy and cost of building sewage infrastructure and then treatment plants could be better spent. The knock-on effects on the system are tremendous. Less strain on the water reservoirs. Less drainage infrastructure. Etc. When you can just take your waste, cover it with a couple pounds of dirt and end up with the best soil in the world, why would you go to all that effort and expense, and create all the foul smells and use all the chemical substances? Seems like a jobs project that penalizes the poorest.

"Deuteronomy 23
13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:
14 For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from thee."

That's instructions for how to keep your army healthy in the field, rather than carelessly killing off the entire force with cholera, dysentery, and all sorts of other dehydration-through-diarrhea maladies which can kill a strong, well-fed, healthy man in less than a week.

Most ARMIES still practice this same procedure (called "digging a cathole") in field training exercises.

They do now, after learning the lesson again in WWII.

Except for the U.S. Now we have port-a-potties all over the place, because it's been discovere that women will, if they can possibly manage it, go for 3 or 4 days without relieving themselves, rather than pull their pants down in the woods.... which also leads to, shall we say, less than optimal health.

Interesting. The Word also says that women should not "wear the garb of a man". This was traditionally understood to mean not putting on a warriors garb.

[Yet another reason why we need to return to the WAC system -- so that females are NOT in the field, EVER. They belong filling out Adjutant General, Finance Corps, rear area Medical units, etc. Places where electricity and, at the very least, outhouses can be expected to be available.

Port-a-potties use chemical cocktails to "neutralize" pathogens. Much simple, and better results to follow the Word. A shovelful of dirt is all it takes, the friendly bacteria in the soil act quickly.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 23, 2019 5:59 PM  

If they invested in a scheme willing to go into debt then they made the bed themselves.

Blogger Dirk Manly September 23, 2019 5:59 PM  

@116

"In corporate law and corporate theory you have the idea of management capture of the corporation-- Where the day to day managers of the corporation gain control and run the corporation for their benefit and not the shareholders. The powers the governments give the management against the shareholders is huge and it seems to me (IMHO) that except for initial owner corporations (where the initial owner has a huge share advantage) most corporations have been captured. Hence getting the recent BS about a large mass of big company CEOs making statements about their commitment to other stakeholders against shareholders interests--- also the large $ pay the management makes."

This is why the A's CEO sitting on B's board and B's CEO sitting on A's board is a problem. It facilitates management capture.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 23, 2019 6:01 PM  

"Assuming innocent incompetence by politicians and hoping something will be done about it shows incredible naivety."

Pretty much. Best case scenario they're indefferently incompetent because their scheme is elsewhere.

Blogger James Dixon September 23, 2019 6:02 PM  

> Lending may be evil, but it's here to stay. Sorry.

Lending money is not evil. Lending a ridiculously high interest rates and/or with no way to have the loan be forgiven is.

> Let's assume that I'm wrong, and that the names of corporate officers and board members are EASILY obtainable.

Dirk, the board of directors sign off on every annual report, which is filed with (the SEC. The SEC has the information, as does the investor relations section of every major corporate web page.

> Post a URL of such a list.

Go to https://www.sec.gov/edgar/searchedgar/companysearch.html

Search for the company you want, say Intel.

Look for the 10K filing, which in this case is on the second page as you scroll down. Pull it up.

In Intel's case, they have a page titled "Who Manages Our Business" on page 18 which lists the officers. The signatures of the board members are on the last page.

> Show my how wrong I am by producing the list of all publicly heald corporations throughout the U.S., with all of their board members, and all of their officers.

All publicly held companies are required to file with the SEC. For a list of publicly traded companies, try https://finviz.com/screener.ashx

> Ok, now find me EVERY example of A's CEO serving on B's board of directors, and B's CEO serving on A's board of directors.

Dirk, all that is required is creating a searchable database of the board members of each corporation and then searching for duplicates. It's not hard, merely monkey work. Any modern computer with a database program should be able to handle it. No, we're not going to do it for you. We're not the ones who want it.

> Again, filed in the 3rd sub-basement, in a locked room

I gave you the links, Dirk. Yes, companies change every year. Board members change most years. Maintaining such a list, even with a good database) will be a time consuming (and probably thankless) job. There's a reason people want money for these things.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 23, 2019 6:11 PM  

Destroyed.

Blogger S1AL September 23, 2019 6:21 PM  

"Yes, I believe that they're such horrible people that they go "oh well I can get a higher return on my investments than that" and force their thieving, vandalizing, unindicted juvenile delinquents to take out loans when they could've paid cash. So you literally end up with trust fund babies whining in their Brooklyn lofts about their student loan debt."

Your mistake was throwing the phrase "ruling class" into it. It's their footsoldiers who are in debt. I'm not keen on subsidizing their poor life choices and political affiliations, which is what a (general) student loan jubilee would cause. Communists don't cease to be communists because the government forgives their debts... quite the opposite.

Blogger The Pitchfork Rebel September 23, 2019 7:32 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger The Pitchfork Rebel September 23, 2019 7:33 PM  

@82

"dummy. 98 percent of all student loan debt is ALREADY government debt."

So what? Did you not read the rest of the post or do you not understand the meaning of the word "disgorgement"?

The beneficiary of these loans were the schools that received exaggerated tutition and fees-so any forgivness needs to come-at least in part from them. What don't you understand here?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 23, 2019 7:49 PM  

Sewerage comments are off topic.
Consider that a warning.

Blogger justaguy September 23, 2019 7:52 PM  

#118: Forgive us our trespasses have we have forgiven those who trespass against us. Sounds like golden rule-- treat others...not something about loans, interest etc.

I used 1700 for when usury laws began to change for population, not just select portions. Interests was charged in almost all Western countries for most of known history-- just how and who was managed. As control of Catholic church changed-- who could lend and borrow changed.

What I am saying that it is hard to make a theological case against debt for Christians (NT).

I am also saying that debt and hence interest is necessary for civilization. Nothing in the basic Austrian econ thought on interest is wrong,disproven, or doesn't make sense. What doesn't make sense and never has is not allowing a relief such as bankruptcy or a jubilee (kind of the same thing-- different mechanism). History has shown getting rid of debtors prison and onerous debt laws helps economic growth. Student loan debacle is a government screwed up mess as only the government could screw up this badly. If could discharge the loans-- there would be a limit to colleges-- since government wants more indoctrination of adults-- it doesn't limit the loans. The loans are helpful to control the populace for the elite etc.

Baby in bathwater problem-- imho. but ymmv.

Blogger justaguy September 23, 2019 7:55 PM  

#125: Lots of SEC rules also restrict efforts by shareholders (the owners) to prevent management capture. Lots of law review articles on topic. The management types that want to control companies are the SJW types that screwed over Conrad Black's company , and ran in into the ground, getting rich while they did so.

Blogger justaguy September 23, 2019 7:59 PM  

Unless one is a strict Pharisee, observing all of the laws of the OT, how can one make any OT arguments with a straight face? Too many ways to show that it does not apply to almost anyone in western civilization. Very very few are members of family related to Abraham.

Blogger James Dixon September 23, 2019 8:03 PM  

> What I am saying that it is hard to make a theological case against debt for Christians (NT).

Debt, yes. Unreasonable interest rates and no way to discharge the debt short of slavery, no.

Blogger justaguy September 23, 2019 8:16 PM  

I agree with discharge of debt. I think it is an anomaly to have debt servitude to the lower portion of the population IQ wise. That the elites like the situation and do not want to change it, unless it brings more $ and power to their power base (academia) through free college-- well...

For me the devil is in the details of how to do it. Nothing is as simple as Nike. (Just do it)

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 23, 2019 8:24 PM  

"What I am saying that it is hard to make a theological case against debt for Christians"

No, it really isn't. The Bible says to pay your debts and not to borrow. The case is crystal clear as far as whether or not Christians should go into debt. If you want to make a case about lending, that's a bit different, but when it mentions lending it says to do so graciously, which would imply that you're not making a large profit off of it.

"I am also saying that debt and hence interest is necessary for civilization."

Interest is even less necessary for civilization than financial debt. Certain types of debt come with the territory of being human, such as the debt of a child to his parents for bringing him up. Financial debt? Doesn't need to exist for civilization to exist unless you have a peculiar definition of civilization.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 23, 2019 8:27 PM  

Can lending be useful? Certainly. Necessary? I doubt it.

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( that one UFC fan Owen keeps around so you can't accuse him of homophobia ) September 23, 2019 8:41 PM  

43. James Dixon September 23, 2019 9:58 AM
a) Interest rates are at historic lows. They're not going to stay there forever.



they WILL stay there so long as this Federal Government requires it.

and with +20 Trillion in outstanding Debt, that's going to be either until this Federal Government is destroyed
OR
until another +98% of value has been Inflated out of the currency again.


35. John Rockwell September 23, 2019 9:37 AM
With our modern debt based fractional reserve usury currency as representing a violation of the principle of equal weights and measures



exactly so.

the dollar i repay a Mortgage with 20 years from now is worth significantly LESS than the dollar i borrowed to purchase the house in the first place.

that is the openly stated purpose and goal of the Federal Reserve, that there should be a minimum of 2% Inflation per year. and that's after they get done jiggering the numbers to conceal the actual Inflation.


47. Mr Smith September 23, 2019 10:12 AM
A corporations nessaserly aren't. However, usury is capitalism.


this is a Lie. an oft repeated one, to be true, and one in which we were all inculcated as children.

Capitalism requires only the acquisition and deployment of Capital ( large sums of money ).

Debt / Credit are NOT Capital, they are the opposite of Capital.

something to think about;
the Babylonians had laws about the practice of Usury. circa 1900 BC.

Abram came from Ur of the Chaldees, a city of Babylon.

why should it be necessary for a 'modern society' to engage in financial practices which were recognized as wrong and dyscivic 3000 years ago?


64. Nate September 23, 2019 11:52 AM
The risk mitigation corporations provide is absolutely necessary for capitalism to work.


the corporate 'risk mitigation' is exactly why the ((( Sackler ))) family is going to get a slap on the wrist for murdering tens of thousands of Goyim.

Blogger rumpole5 September 23, 2019 8:58 PM  

@ S. Whiplash: re:"[Boomers]killing off things like pensions,"
You can have a pension if you like, It's called an annuity. Go set one up. Corporations killed off pensions because there was low demand for workers. (Boomer Trump is doing things to raise that demand by the way.) However, you will probably end up with more money in the end if you invest in an index fund with Vanguard or Morgan Stanley.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 23, 2019 9:01 PM  

"and that's after they get done jiggering the numbers to conceal the actual Inflation."

Probably in the 6-10% range....

"The risk mitigation corporations provide is absolutely necessary for capitalism to work."

If capitalism requires that artificial bodies be produced with the purpose of allowing part of the population to abuse and leech off the rest, then capitalism needs to die.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 23, 2019 9:05 PM  

The Sumerians, predessesors of Babylon, invented "paper" money, in the form of deposit reciepts proving that a landowner had paid his share of the barley crop to the royal grainery. Within two years of that invention, they also invented counterfeiting, lending at interest, bankruptcy, inflation, currency devaluation, fiat currency, and monetary collapse.
Babylon knew very well the dangers of usury.

Capital is accumulated wealth. It is the literal opposite of debt.

Blogger rumpole5 September 23, 2019 9:06 PM  

Debt makes sense to buy a durable asset with a rising value. I am out of debt now but I've made a very good deal of money selling houses, condos and land after the value went up. The average long term gain in the stock market is 7% a year, so not doubt many have also made money on that with money borrowed at a lower rate.

Blogger SirHamster September 23, 2019 9:07 PM  

justaguy wrote:#118: Forgive us our trespasses have we have forgiven those who trespass against us. Sounds like golden rule-- treat others...not something about loans, interest etc.
Why are you dismissing the words as quoted? KJV, NIV, ESV all use "debt", not trespasses.

Debts very obviously include loans and interest. Multiple parables deal with debts and forgiveness. It corresponds to Jesus's message to set the captives free.


justaguy wrote:What I am saying that it is hard to make a theological case against debt for Christians (NT).
No, you're ignorant of the Bible and spreading false teachings.

"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law." (Rom 13:8)


justaguy wrote:Nothing in the basic Austrian econ thought on interest is wrong,disproven, or doesn't make sense.
After appealing to the Bible, why the Hell are you appealing to the sensibility of Austrian thought on economics? Do you think they are equally sacred and authoritative?

That'd be idolatry. You're not doing a good job representing a Christian case for debt.

Blogger justaguy September 23, 2019 9:15 PM  

#138: Oh come on-- you are joking aren't you. Not a good troll. Here is your argument against debt???

"The Bible says to pay your debts and not to borrow." with no verse given. Your argument says ""debts"" right in it.

Look to Psalms: Psalm 37:21

"The wicked borrows but does not pay back, but the righteous is generous and gives." obviously there is debt here and it is not condemned.

From the NT Matthew 5:42

"Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you." Again nothing on debt is bad.

Now interest-- I really hate theology talks but moneylenders are brought up often in NT-- is it the lending or their heart that is discussed? So no slam dunk prohibition on debt in NT and ignoring theology on when can OT be used as proscriptions or analogies (lots of theological argument here)-- OT doesn't apply to those not of Abraham (very very few)-- yes it is hard to derive a moral case against debt. much easier to simply declare it as an axiom of your moral system and then try to work out how to get enough growth enough to be more than subsistence....

I hope that VD doesn't think this is an absolute-- especially if main issue is debt forgiveness-- i.e. bankruptcy/jubilee.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 23, 2019 9:23 PM  

" Oh come on-- you are joking aren't you. Not a good troll."

Read more carefully. I didn't say it condemns debt in general. There's a qualifier, and your verses are irrelevant in the face of it since it takes them into account already.

Blogger justaguy September 23, 2019 9:24 PM  

#145: still going for the knock-out punch. Really? can any of you think that they forgive their employer their loan of pay and work for free? Look verse is about relationships. Lots and lots of theology over these 1 verse claims. Wording debt versus trespass-- what does the words mean-- forgive slights/wrongs and such=trespass or are we into accounting. This is modern usage versus meaning. Again lots and lots of theology and discussion here. Debt as a term for $, trespass as a term for being wronged-- which more clearly evokes the meaning of the passage in its use and tradition-- trespass.

You can try to say that it means both but most rules of theology say no because of the other verses about paying back what is borrowed. Please actually think about responses-- not cliche 1 verse spazzing. It is pretty easy to look at a few readings of these verses if one isn't already familiar with them. Admittingly, I mentioned 1700s and on, because those are the readings I am familiar with (generally protestant) and I know that there are so many Catholic teachings/readings that one can find almost anything amongst the many many sects from 400-1300.

Blogger justaguy September 23, 2019 9:34 PM  

#147: We are/were arguing whether or not debt is moral. Many of the arguments that usury/debt is immoral were from the bible. I tried to eliminate the OT as "overcome" and not applicable to us and to any Christian. I took your argument for debt is immoral, and Christians should not go into debt--- debt is sin to a Christian. Maybe I took too much from the first paragraph. Lots of verses say pay your debts (meaning $)-- nothing about taking debt is a sin. So yes I thought your argument was illogical.

Take a look at most theological thinking since 1700-- same thing. debt not a sin, but might not be smart. Lots and lots of study/writing here.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 23, 2019 9:56 PM  

"I took your argument for debt is immoral, and Christians should not go into debt--- debt is sin to a Christian."

The Bible says Christians shouldn't go into debt and should pay it off as soon as possible if they already are. As for it being immoral, it's not an optimal choice. Does any more need to be said?

Blogger blue collar dave September 23, 2019 9:57 PM  

I gave your arguments a thunk and have to disagree.

I don't think interest is necessary for civilisation. Beside the fact numerous civilisations didn't practice lending, or have monetary systems at all, if an individual or group has capital to lend, they can lend with a percentage of profit from the business or property sale as recompense.

So far as a moral case against debt, I think that all of us in the US being ok with saddling future generations with our and past generations (Thanks boomers!) expenses is immoral.
I told my kids that any money I get from social security, not that I expect the system to still be around, will go to them to compensate for any taxes.

The theological aspects I can't comment on cuz I don't know enough, but the Lord's prayer was always "Forgive us our debts..." when I was a kid.

Regarding the student loan issue, dropping fedgov gaurantees and reinstating dischargibility in bankruptcy would solve the problem.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 23, 2019 9:59 PM  

Remember, the standard is perfection. All things may be permissible, but not all are beneficial.

Blogger justaguy September 23, 2019 10:19 PM  

#152 Finally! Someone brings in Galatians and Corinthians. The topic is what is not permissible-- but is debt a sin/immoral. Not whether or not the idiocy of no jubilee (or bankruptcy) is wise or morally wrong (not developed). Especially I've already agreed that lack of bankruptcy is not wise. I do not think it is a sin... merely a trap for those who lack wisdom or cultural or actual capital. Hence unwise for a society to trap the lower IQs and those who lack cultural capital. Where this trapped serf class leads is unknown.

Blogger SirHamster September 23, 2019 10:24 PM  

justaguy wrote:#145: still going for the knock-out punch. Really?
It's not about winning an argument, it's about what Christian teaching is.

justaguy wrote:can any of you think that they forgive their employer their loan of pay and work for free?
Conflating wages with usury is dishonest. Labor is not loaned.

But you could call the wage obligation a debt, and it is indeed an option for a Christian to forgive his employer of that debt. If it glorifies God, it's worth doing.

On the other side, it is a Christian's duty to pay wages in full and on time.

justaguy wrote:Look verse is about relationships. Wording debt versus trespass-- what does the words mean-- forgive slights/wrongs and such=trespass or are we into accounting.
No English translation of the Bible uses the word "trespasses" for the Lord's prayer. You can't fake Bible knowledge.

justaguy wrote:Again lots and lots of theology and discussion here. Debt as a term for $, trespass as a term for being wronged-- which more clearly evokes the meaning of the passage in its use and tradition-- trespass.
You made a categorical statement about what the NT teaches on debt. You were wrong. Now you double down by playing Bible-lawyer and trying to redefine the words. You prove out Vox's distrust of theologians.

justaguy wrote:You can try to say that it means both but most rules of theology say no because of the other verses about paying back what is borrowed.
For the Roman passage on paying debts, in context it talks about paying taxes, respect, and honor to those who have claim on those things. Trying to limit biblical references of debt to only mean relationships is wrong.

justaguy wrote:Please actually think about responses-- not cliche 1 verse spazzing.
Retreating to dishonest rhetoric demonstrates you don't respect the Bible and you have no business appealing to it as an authority to support your position on debt.

Stick to your sloppy economic arguments. Misrepresenting the Bible is blasphemous and earns you judgement.

Churchian: "When God says to forgive debts, he doesn't mean anything that might hurt your pocketbook. He just wants you to have good vibes about other people. How could you have civilization if you don't worship money?"

Serve God, not money. False teachers will receive the wages they earn. Don't spread false teachings.

Blogger Blacksmith Zeke September 23, 2019 10:33 PM  

Nate wrote:I would like to point out that the places in the world that have corporations and banking are also the same places that have indoor plumbing.

The other places are the shit holes.


Correlation does not imply causation. The places with indoor plumbing also have gay rights, feminism, and multiculturalism. Monetary systems existed long before the modern usury phenomenon, and they were more stable.

Anyone who is interested on an exhaustive study of the ruination brought to Christian nations by (((moneylenders))) can find such here: https://www.amazon.com/Usury-Christendom-Mortal-Sin-that/dp/0970378491.

Blogger justaguy September 23, 2019 10:36 PM  

#154: So everyone with a mortgage has sinned? ok. Is there any major denomination in the US since 1900 that agreed with your thoughts above--that debt is a sin?
But starty with your own axioms, decide that debts means $ but not wrongs. Fine. There is no convincing you. The entire West and all growth, food, people living beyond 30s in the harsh hard world etc is built on the devil....

Blogger Blacksmith Zeke September 23, 2019 10:50 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Blacksmith Zeke September 23, 2019 10:51 PM  

@156: All the growth, food, technology, and health increases of late are due to simply to the discovery and use of fossil fuels, nothing more. Certainly not credit based upon fractional reserve lending.

Blogger justaguy September 23, 2019 11:34 PM  

#158: The Chinese had steam engine toys long long before the average person had enough calories to thrive. Many many theories on why/how the West grew rich. Most deal with a synergy of changes, including freedoms, culture, protestantism etc. No one has a definitive answer, and everyone argues with all others. I think that the industrial revolution started before the steamboat... but ymmv. I think that economics had something to do with it-- corporations and ability to pool money so smart hardworking people had access to capital and could keep enough of their gains that they took risks. This includes debt/lending and something like chartered corporations.

Blogger SirHamster September 23, 2019 11:43 PM  

justaguy wrote:So everyone with a mortgage has sinned? ok. Is there any major denomination in the US since 1900 that agreed with your thoughts above--that debt is a sin?
Didn't call debt a sin. But being in debt is like being a sinner. Neither of those are good things.

But starty with your own axioms, decide that debts means $ but not wrongs.
Saying that Biblical debts include taxes, honor, and respect precludes understanding debt as only meaning money. You're bad at both logic and reading comprehension.

The entire West and all growth, food, people living beyond 30s in the harsh hard world etc is built on the devil....
Prosperity comes from worshiping money, eh? Who needs God when you have debt?

It takes a very special perspective to see generations enslaved by college debt, national debt measured in multiples of GDP, trillions in unfunded state pension debt, and worrying that Christians aren't properly accepting debt.

The train is fine.

Blogger blue collar dave September 24, 2019 12:01 AM  

If we had an up button you would have +1.

Blogger John Regan September 24, 2019 7:56 AM  

I should add that these organizational structures - corporations, governments - are loosely designed for a representative-democratic/republican self government. In theory, power in the organization resides with the masses at the bottom. In a corporation the shareholders elect the directors who in turn appoint the CEO who basically runs everything.

In practice, for the most part, the shareholders just ratify a slate of directors served up by the CEO. It is true that if there is corruption or incompetence in the group running things, the shareholders, or some group of them, can seek a remedy through what is called a derivative action. But courts are generally hostile to these, figuring that the shareholders are a bunch of cranks, among other things.

In the end, whether we're talking about governments or corporations, only a virtuous people are capable of self government, yet the virtuous are vulnerable to exploitation by the un-virtuous. It's a tough problem.

Blogger OneWingedShark September 24, 2019 9:41 AM  

SirHamster wrote:justaguy wrote:Look verse is about relationships. Wording debt versus trespass-- what does the words mean-- forgive slights/wrongs and such=trespass or are we into accounting.
No English translation of the Bible uses the word "trespasses" for the Lord's prayer. You can't fake Bible knowledge.

Well now, that's just not true — here is an English translation which uses 'treaspases' [1526 version of trespasses]. The Book of Common Prayer also, traditionally, uses 'trespass', with modern versions using 'sin'.

Blogger SciVo September 24, 2019 9:55 AM  

S1AL wrote:Your mistake was throwing the phrase "ruling class" into it. It's their footsoldiers who are in debt. I'm not keen on subsidizing their poor life choices and political affiliations, which is what a (general) student loan jubilee would cause. Communists don't cease to be communists because the government forgives their debts... quite the opposite.

Thank you for the correction. In my defense, from the front lines of the working class, it is hard to tell the difference sometimes between the UMC/9.9%/Clerisy and the 0.1%/Ruling. From where I'm standing, they're all a bunch of rich a-holes and douches.

Blogger justaguy September 24, 2019 12:43 PM  

I note that while the chair-borne theologians argue english words without a hint of ideas to the original languages and completely ignore the jab that there hasn't been a major denomination in over 200 years who agree with their idea that debt=sin/interest = sin. Only one person finally mentioned permissible and the Corinthian/Galatians issues. Hasn't anyone studied theology? Not need for normal life, Holy Spirit and our innate conscious helps us here-- but for guiding groups and such theology is helpful.

At least someone noted the obvious bad fact about english translations and word trespass.

But hey, if your views are that any debt is a sin-- the axiom that VD started with-- well go for it.


I note that most societies that had debt allowed some form of debt relief and that student loans not having this relief is bad-- or at least against the norms. So the OT as a guide, jubilee is a good idea to have, and our modern version is bankruptcy. Student loans should allow bankruptcy (IMO) but the devil is in the detail. Those in power like creating a serf class and like the ability to get paid for a 4-6 year period of indoctrination apart from the family and culture that the young were raised in-- a good chance to convert them. The devil is in the details, not in the debt.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 24, 2019 1:00 PM  

@justaguy,
It's not that debt is a sin. It's that sin is a debt. VD did not start with the idea that any debt is a sin. He started with the well-established doctrine that usury is a sin. To invert the meaning of the statement is either stupidity or dishonesty.
I will grant you that modern theologians don't much care to discuss this, and frequently don't even understand the doctrine, but that's almost the opposite of a demonstration of it's irrelevance.

And try to get over yourself. Yes, many here have studied theology. We even have a couple of pastors and at least one Orthodox priest who comment here regularly.

Blogger justaguy September 24, 2019 1:52 PM  

Great-- and do any other their denominations have the doctrine of usury is a sin-- meaning that interest is a sin. You have to admit with your appeal to authority that some of the theology arguments here are not well argued. the intent seems well meaning, but appeals to "no english translation does this" are arguments against their point.

I started disputing VD's axiom "The math of usury is clear and impossible. Real growth can never keep up with compounding interest. This is why debt is evil and why regular debt jubilees are necessary, even though the usurers use all of their power to try to prevent their victims from escaping."

Although I agree that we need bankruptcy to apply as the modern jubilee, I disagree that debt is evil nor is usury intrinsically evil. As most good or evil arguments are moral-- well it got into very bad theology. I appealed to authority noting that almost all denominations stopped the usury is a sin a long time ago.

Few took the obvious path of without the jubilee, student debt is evil-- which I could accept and then debate the solutions. Instead we had primitivism going with debt is evil etc. Or perhaps we were into 1 Cor 8, instead.

Truthfully, i just like pushing systems of thoughts so that the consequences are known. Deciding debt is wrong has horrific consequences on society if implemented. So the sanctimonious-- my theology says it is wrong-- just makes me want to push. Especially about something that is pretty much universal to the West for the last 2 centuries and not openly condemned in the NT. (please no Romans 13. -- that is relationships) The few things openly condemned in the NT-- I am all for defending. As those few things have been openly cast aside by society-- well battles over debt seem misplaced when we are being forced to participate in celebrating sin or losing the chance to earn a living. Oh well Revelations...

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 24, 2019 2:34 PM  

justaguy wrote:Truthfully, i just like pushing systems of thoughts so that the consequences are known. Deciding debt is wrong has horrific consequences on society if implemented. So the sanctimonious-- my theology says it is wrong-- just makes me want to push.
No, you're just an asshole looking for a fight. Well, fair enough. It's not like I have never been described in exactly those terms. Are you of Irish descent?
But nobody seems to want to fight you.

Blogger SirHamster September 24, 2019 3:05 PM  

OneWingedShark wrote:Well now, that's just not true — here is an English translation which uses 'treaspases' [1526 version of trespasses]. The Book of Common Prayer also, traditionally, uses 'trespass', with modern versions using 'sin'.
Thanks for that historical detail. Trespass is one translation of the Greek word, so I did expect to find at least one translation to use it when I looked around.

But the chances justaguy here was quoting the Tyndale translation are nil. He didn't offer any translation to justify his substitution, but dodged the topic.

One quotes what one uses regularly, and none of the common English translations use the word "trespass".


justaguy wrote:But hey, if your views are that any debt is a sin-- the axiom that VD started with-- well go for it.
Didn't call debt a sin, retard.

The point is that your claim that the "New Testament doesn't condemn debt" is wrong.

It misses the point that debt relief is the entire Gospel. Jesus ransoms man's debt to God, and gives us a corresponding duty to relieve the smaller debts owed to us, so that our larger debt may remain forgiven. Debt is slavery, but Christ comes to set the captives free.

This is core to Christian theology.

After all the Bible teaching on relieving and minimizing debt within our communities, your important takeaway is that the NT "doesn't condemn debt".

Blogger OneWingedShark September 24, 2019 4:13 PM  

SirHamster wrote:OneWingedShark wrote:Well now, that's just not true — here is an English translation which uses 'treaspases' [1526 version of trespasses]. The Book of Common Prayer also, traditionally, uses 'trespass', with modern versions using 'sin'.

Thanks for that historical detail. Trespass is one translation of the Greek word, so I did expect to find at least one translation to use it when I looked around.

But the chances justaguy here was quoting the Tyndale translation are nil. He didn't offer any translation to justify his substitution, but dodged the topic.

One quotes what one uses regularly, and none of the common English translations use the word "trespass".

The word "trespass" is common for the Lord's Prayer in certain Protestant denominations, and I seem to recall Catholics using it, too [sorry, foggy/uncertain memory there]; IIUC, Lutherans & Methodists use it.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 24, 2019 4:35 PM  

The standard Catholic English rendition is trespass, but the Latin it's translated from is debt:
et dimitte nobis debita nostra,
sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris.

"and forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors."

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 24, 2019 4:50 PM  

"Great-- and do any other their denominations have the doctrine of usury is a sin-- meaning that interest is a sin."

#1: Yes.
#2: Bandwagon fallacy.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 24, 2019 4:55 PM  

"Finally! Someone brings in Galatians and Corinthians. The topic is what is not permissible-- but is debt a sin/immoral."

And see, you immediately prove that you do not understand them.

That it is permissible does not mean something is not wrong. It just means that if you're truly a Christian you're not getting kicked into hell for it.

Blogger SirHamster September 24, 2019 5:03 PM  

OneWingedShark wrote:he word "trespass" is common for the Lord's Prayer in certain Protestant denominations, and I seem to recall Catholics using it, too [sorry, foggy/uncertain memory there]; IIUC, Lutherans & Methodists use it.
That I knew. That's where I expect justaguy got the wording from, since the common Bible texts don't use it.

Replacing the literal Bible text with that is a faux pas in a discussion on Bible teaching.

Snidely Whiplash wrote:The standard Catholic English rendition is trespass
That's for the Lord's Prayer as recited during services?

What are the usual Catholic Bible translations used? Thanks.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 24, 2019 7:56 PM  

That's a complex question. Since the introduction of the RSV with Apocrypha, American Catholics have used that translation, mostly. Before that, there were three commonly in use. The Douay Rheims, contemporary to the KJV, was a new translation, from the same sources used by Jerome, and is very similar to the Vulgate. There was also the Confraternity edition, which is a language update of the Douay Rheims at the turn of the century. The New American came out in the 1960s, and is again a language update of the Douay-Rheims. It is the official bible used the the conference of bishops.
As could be expected, they are very similar:
New American
Matthew 6: and forgive us our debts,as we forgive our debtors
Luke 11: And forgive us our sins, for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us.

Douay Rheims:
Matthew 6: And forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.
Luke 11: And forgive us our sins, for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us.

There is also the Jerusalem bible, which was a new translation from the early 1960s. The translation itself is very good, but the notes are the sort of "higher criticism" crap that killed Continental Lutheranism. Fortunately it's not available online for copyright reasons, and I don't have one.
Since it was approved for use at Mass in the 1980s, we all use the RSV.

Blogger James Dixon September 24, 2019 8:24 PM  

> Fortunately it's not available online for copyright reasons, and I don't have one.

I can understand the reasoning, but the fundamental conflict between the "Word of God" and human copyright is pretty much a non sequitur for me.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 24, 2019 10:11 PM  

I agree, but no one has ever asked my opinion of copyright laws.

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