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Sunday, September 08, 2019

This pretty much summarizes it

I was asked my thoughts on the Baptist church, in which I was raised, on the Darkstream the other night, and this Babylon Bee article pretty much summarizes the full extent of my opinion on it:
Sources at Biloxi Seventh Baptist Church confirmed Tuesday that the entire church body is still pretending never to drink alcoholic beverages. Based on the church's strong convictions, every member of the church is staunchly committed to pretend to abstain from alcohol while in the presence of other Baptists.

"It's important to avoid the appearance of evil," said church member Fred Myers. "That's why I committed a long time ago to never let on that I love downing a few craft beers during a ball game on the weekends." Myers always orders a Diet Coke when with his Baptist friends and family, though he's been known to order a beer on tap as long as he's in another state where no one can recognize him.

Other members of the church share the same commitment. Take Ethel Carver, 82. She credits her long life to her zealous dedication to the Lord, eating lots of fruits, vegetables, and casseroles, and pretending not to down two shots of whiskey before bed every night.

"Ever since I was a little girl, my parents raised me right, the Baptist way," she said. "We don't smoke, we don't chew, we don't drink alcohol unless no other Baptists are around. Just like the Bible says."
Baptists and Southern Baptists chose the Churchian path back in 1880. Perhaps that didn't matter as much then, when society was predominantly Christian. But it definitely matters now. Prohibition is a man-made dogma and has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity. But growing up amongst rampant Baptist hypocrisy did provide me with an effective anti-BS radar as well as an instinctive contempt for Bible-lawyering, as the ridiculous contortions involved in asserting that all the references to "wine" in the Bible actually refer to "non-alcoholic grape juice" made the divide between Christianity and Churchianity hard to miss, even for children.

Southern Baptists had worked at least three decades to secure legal prohibition. They saw the 18th Amendment as a culmination of their labor. They also had come to view prohibition advocacy as a defining mark of Baptist identity.... Since 1934, the SBC has adopted at least 35 statements opposing alcohol, the latest in 2006.

Now they see opposing racism, nationalism, identity politics, and patriotism as defining marks of Baptist identity. And they'll oppose those things even less successfully than they opposed alcohol, which is why the Baptist identity will fade away over time in the same way that the Abecedarian and Episcopalian identities have.

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160 Comments:

Blogger Dave Dave September 08, 2019 8:13 AM  

Baptists are the type of Churchians to pass around memes saying "It was John the Baptist, not John the Catholic" and chuckle to themselves at how clever they are.
The Uniting Church in Australia, a combination of Methodists and Presbyterians, which I grew up in, is not only trying to get women at the pulpit, they're going for the transgender crowd. It's completely tone-deaf and whoever is running the organisation has colossally fucked up. When mentally ill sodomites are promoted as virtuous what reason is there to attend church? If it's not internally consistent it will die. There's no justification for the Baptists being against alcohol or the Uniting Church trying to shove faggots down our throats. I'd rather visit a Mosque and pray to Mecca 5 times a day than to subject myself to fake Christianity.

Blogger rumpole5 September 08, 2019 8:20 AM  

Thanks for giving us a glimpse into your thoughts on this subject. Our relationship to eternity is something we all will face, and I value your observations on it. That being said, I do think the Baptists have a point. "Hipocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue", and they are right to observe (if not practice) that swilling alcohol is no way to treat the home of the Holy Spirit.

Blogger Titanium Bear September 08, 2019 8:25 AM  

I street witnessed to a drunk guy at the Savannah River Front. Turned out to be a once saved always Baptist boy. He must have been on vacation.

Blogger LZ September 08, 2019 8:28 AM  

Christian denominations operate under Lindy rules.

Blogger LZ September 08, 2019 8:31 AM  

It's one thing to be hypocrite, it's another to make a habit of sinning. If you teach children alcohol and premarital sex and divorce are forbidden, and make a habit of violating the ban on alcohol, you open the wide gate.

Blogger Joe A. September 08, 2019 8:35 AM  

Been to many, many baptist churches in this state over the decades. None of them care what the SBC says. None of them have ever advocated prohibition.

Blogger lazarus long September 08, 2019 8:40 AM  

You will know it if your church is genuine, whether or not the communion consists of grape juice shots.

If you find your fingers tapping to the defense of church dogma or parish customs....well...take another look.

Blogger Zoot Fenster September 08, 2019 8:40 AM  

Thirty years as a SBC member. Never heard a sermon against alcohol. Regularly had beers with fellow members and wine with the pastor. Just not a big deal. Maybe it's just Texas.

No argument against the current cucking on the other topics.

Blogger Lushtree September 08, 2019 8:48 AM  

If there was something inherently sinful about alcohol, Jesus's first miracle would not have been to have created wine from water.

Christian prohibitionists claim to be more moral than Jesus. That is not a good place to be in.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother September 08, 2019 8:50 AM  

The SBC central is full of the cuck traitors. And they split from us in the 1830's to go play churchian bitch. Primitive Baptists are the real deal.

Nate and Kurgan can kiss my ass.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother September 08, 2019 8:51 AM  

In three weeks. Nate, anyway.

Blogger Dave Dave September 08, 2019 8:52 AM  

@9. Not only did he create wine from water, he did it to keep the party going. Jesus wanted people to party hard.

Blogger Avalanche September 08, 2019 8:52 AM  

"non-alcoholic grape juice"

On the other hand, as a kid I LOVED that my northern Baptist church used Welches Grape Juice instead of wine. It was my all-time-fav drink! And the preacher, after the service, let a few of us kids 'clear out' the left-over shot glasses in the pretty brass holder... Yum!

Blogger tuberman September 08, 2019 8:58 AM  

Babylon Bee rocks!

Blogger VD September 08, 2019 8:58 AM  

I do think the Baptists have a point. "Hipocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue", and they are right to observe (if not practice) that swilling alcohol is no way to treat the home of the Holy Spirit.

They don't have a point. They teach that drinking alcohol is a sin. That is obviously a lie. Why do you endorse lying as Christian doctrine?

On the other hand, as a kid I LOVED that my northern Baptist church used Welches Grape Juice instead of wine. It was my all-time-fav drink! And the preacher, after the service, let a few of us kids 'clear out' the left-over shot glasses in the pretty brass holder... Yum!

FFS, Avalanche. That isn't the other hand. Believe it or not, your personal childhood preferences do not balance the Bible and nearly 2,000 years of Christian doctrine.

Blogger Haus frau September 08, 2019 9:00 AM  

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Blogger Glaivester September 08, 2019 9:00 AM  

I think one thing about Baptists (I am one) is that due to the bottom-up rather than top-down nature of the denomination, you have more variety in the churches. Yes, you can get a lot of churchian cucks, but you also get good biblical churches, and the former cannot impose their beliefs on the latter because each church is more or less independent.

Blogger Haus frau September 08, 2019 9:01 AM  

"If there was something inherently sinful about alcohol, Jesus's first miracle would not have been to have created wine from water."

The fun thing about that story is the host complained that the servants brought out the best wine after everyone was already drunk instead of serving it first when people were sober enough to appreciate it. Even Jesus enjoys a good party.
"They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

I don't see alcohol as a whole lot different than any other vice. How many Baptists have sky high credit card debt on stuff they don't need

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 08, 2019 9:03 AM  

Apparently a fair number of Baptist by name churches don't get along well with the conventions. The longest time I've attended a particular church was one of them that never even mentioned alcohol and is still solid on the other mentioned topics, and it seems I'm not the only one.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 08, 2019 9:05 AM  

Ehh, to the extent I recall, all the Bible says on the topic is that it's okay to drink but not become drunk. Kind of like a fair number of other things, so long as you control it instead of it controlling you, you're fine.

Blogger Daniele Grech Pereira September 08, 2019 9:08 AM  

It would have been easier if Jesus had said something like, "Enjoy the wine but don't drink too much, you'll end up pissing yourself getting pumped behind a dumpster."

Blogger MendoScot September 08, 2019 9:09 AM  

In vino veritas. Cheers, all!

Blogger maniacprovost September 08, 2019 9:10 AM  

When I grew up as a Southern Baptist, I'm pretty sure our Church's position was not to get too drunk, and don't bring beer cans to the recycling drive.

They were somewhat more opposed to tattoos, officially, but the old dude who taught the men's class said his opinion was, he had some from the Navy.

Blogger John Rockwell September 08, 2019 9:13 AM  

Revelation revealed that Jesus Christ was doing quality control then. I don't see him acting any different now.

Candlesticks that don't produce fruit in keeping with his purposes will be taken away.

Blogger maniacprovost September 08, 2019 9:15 AM  

The Texas Baptists are fine with moderate drinking, per this:
https://texasbaptists.s3.amazonaws.com/clc/ethics/On%20Alcohol%20And%20Drug%20Use.pdf

Blogger Brett baker September 08, 2019 9:17 AM  

Churchians: Proving Diocletian Did Nothing Wrong for centuries.

Blogger matveidaniilovich September 08, 2019 9:26 AM  

Did Vox grow up to be in an electronic dance band & be a wine advocate just to troll the Baptists?

Blogger matveidaniilovich September 08, 2019 9:28 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger matveidaniilovich September 08, 2019 9:34 AM  


Jesus turned the water into wine & the Southern Baptists have been trying to turn it back ever since.

Blogger Jeff aka Orville September 08, 2019 9:38 AM  

Yes, you can get a lot of churchian cucks, but you also get good biblical churches, and the former cannot impose their beliefs on the latter because each church is more or less independent.

Two thoughts. First there is a dearth of bible focused churches that place grace before lawyering. I'm saying that from deep in the "bible" belt.

Second being independent, whether as SBC, Bible Baptist or other flavor of fundamentalist does not insulate from the top down rot as it comes in from the Bible Colleges, Seminaries and Fellowship meetings where pastors try to out do each other.


Blogger Nate September 08, 2019 9:40 AM  

Southern Baptists are converged... and the United Methodists are literally purging the progressives.

2019 is still a transition year. the party is just getting started.

Blogger Harris September 08, 2019 9:41 AM  

IMPORTANT: Leaving the Baptist Church doesn't mean you have to leave Christ.

Unfortunately, the hypocrisy in the Baptist Church leads many young people raised in the Baptist Church to abandon Christ.

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim September 08, 2019 9:43 AM  

Oh how I long for the days when the alcohol ban was the main problem with Baptists. A much worse problem is the “11th Commandment” which allows heretics to operate freely without being addressed by the “leaders” in the denomination.
I predict Russell Moore may be willing to share a cup of just about anything with a black person as long as he gets his virtuous “We are so sorry for slavery, my niggas!” points.

There are some voices still out there who have some truth (Voddie Baucham, Phil Johnson, Tom Ascol) but I’ve taken to listening to just about any pastor who is biblical and rolls their eyes at any form of wokeness.

Blogger Nate September 08, 2019 9:44 AM  

ya know it would've been so nice if Jesus had been around today... that way He could be super smart and super educated like we are and He would've known that alcoholism would turn into a problem. I mean obviously it wasn't a problem when He was around otherwise He would've known that using wine in Communion would be a stumbling block for those who struggle. and you know Jesus would NEVER put a stumbling block in front of anyone for any reason. Because that wouldn't be nice and we all know that Jesus was first and foremost nice.

Blogger Nate September 08, 2019 9:47 AM  

"There are some voices still out there who have some truth (Voddie Baucham, Phil Johnson, Tom Ascol) but I’ve taken to listening to just about any pastor who is biblical and rolls their eyes at any form of wokeness. "

don't give up. y'all don't have the cancer nearly as bad as the UMC did... and the UMC still managed to cut it out. Y'all just need to see the writing on the wall. look at what playing nice did to the UMC for 50 years. Don't do what the UMC did. Draw the hard line now and mitigate the damage.

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim September 08, 2019 9:48 AM  

Vox, have you ever shared your thoughts on election or proselytizing (The Great Commission)? I know Baptists are traditionally big on telling people that their sin will lead them to hell if they don’t repent, but there are some who don’t feel a great need to even bring it up with people, more of a “live and let live” approach. Thanks.

Blogger LibertyPortraits September 08, 2019 9:51 AM  

I don't remember much from the teachings of my northern Baptist church (who used Welch's grape juice) about alcohol, but I do remember that when I smelled alcohol for the first time, from an empty beer can somewhere in a field, I thought I was in the presence of evil, like a demon was actually there. They obviously taught me, and convinced me as a kid, how evil drinking was, and I reacted in kind. It took years in my adulthood to override that strong belief in drinking's inherent evil. Reflecting back on it all, no amount of church sermons and activities, missionary or otherwise, ever made my life better for it. Naive children who haven't had difficult lives don't have the authority to preach anything to anybody.

Blogger Guy Incognito September 08, 2019 9:51 AM  

I was raised Independent Baptist.

There's a few "go to" verses they use

Proverbs 23
Proverbs 20:1
Ephesians 5:18

There's more, of course, but those are the main ones.

They ignore inconvenient passages such as
1 Timothy 5:23 where Paul says to "Drink a little wine"

As Box noted, they take verses specifically talking about drunkenness, and apply them to all use of alcohol.

For myself, I went from good Baptist kid to the Marine Corps.
I drank a lot while I was in.

I stopped drinking a while ago because it was interfering with my life.

My particular personality makes it hard to drink one or two once I start. I would remedy that by buying one or two beers at a time if I wanted a drink.

Eventually I got tired of that so I quit altogether.

I hate half measures. It's easier for me to not drink than to drink a few.

YMMV, but I hang my hat on being completely sober because of my personal weakness, not scripture.

Blogger Jeff aka Orville September 08, 2019 9:54 AM  

Nate you piqued my curiosity. My first thirteen years of life was in the UMC, plus I'm familiar with Methodist history back to the days of Sam Jones.

Where can I go online to find out more about what is changing in the UMC?

Blogger Guy Incognito September 08, 2019 9:56 AM  

"Vox" not "Box".

Stupid autocorrect.

Blogger Dave Dave September 08, 2019 10:04 AM  

Would have been nice to grow up in the Orthodox church because they give wine to the children as well. If a church is doing communion properly there's no problem with using wine. Grape juice is faggy. Are they scared that children will get drunk off of a drop of wine? Makes no sense.

Blogger VD September 08, 2019 10:04 AM  

Stupid autocorrect.

It's not autocorrect that is stupid. It is the person who can't figure out how to turn it off.

Next time, let the typo go uncommented.

Blogger timothyjander September 08, 2019 10:05 AM  

Always take two Baptists with you when you go fishing, because if you only take one, he'll drink all your beer. - The Official Joke of South Carolina

Blogger Titanium Bear September 08, 2019 10:06 AM  

Premarital sex is banned because it might lead to young people dancing.

Blogger Harris September 08, 2019 10:07 AM  

The bigger problem is not the "cucking" of the Churchians.

It is that distorting the Bible to fit your political or social agenda leads many astray from the truth. It is right in line with what Satan does. He takes partial truths, or half truths, and tempts people to submit to him. It is particularly Satanic, completely apart from the political ramifications.

It is also literally "taking the name of God in vain." When you enlist the name of God to your agenda, twisting the Bible into saying something it doesn't, it is a violation of God Himself.

Blogger Calvin809 September 08, 2019 10:09 AM  

It's the independent, fundamentalist, King James only Baptists that are very legalistic about drinking. If you don't believe in their view of the rapture or Bible translations you are literally a Satanist trying to decide them. The SBC on the other hand is going the other way and is becoming a liberal church like the ELCA. They are teaching critical race theory and liberation theology in their seminaries, they will probably have Beth Moore as the president soon, Russel Moore is a political operative corrupting the church. The other problem is that the people opposed to all of this are big time cucks. I always hear the term "benefit of the doubt" and "they are our brothers in Christ". If they confess to be Christians then we have to treat them with kid gloves and can't question that confession. We just have disagreements as brothers. Then there is talk about all of the subversive politics and resolutions at their convention which is just to muddy the waters and offer false assurances to those opposing the agenda. This is what happens every time a church is subverted and no one opposing it is really wanting to really fight. They are the definition of losing with dignity. I think they really think that being stoned like Stephen is a more moral choice than being Athanasius against the Arian church.

Blogger Nate September 08, 2019 10:10 AM  

"Nate you piqued my curiosity. My first thirteen years of life was in the UMC, plus I'm familiar with Methodist history back to the days of Sam Jones.

Where can I go online to find out more about what is changing in the UMC?"

I mean it was literally all over the national news from about march through july. I don't see how you missed it.

The media coverage is terrible but if you just search for United Methodist Church General Conference 2019 you'll find a lot.

Long story short... the UMC has voted to kick out any minister that performs a gay marriage... and any minister that is an self avowed practicing homosexual. It has always made it church law that any bishop that defrock a minister for these things will also be defrocked. We would also take away the pension of anyone that we kicked out.

in addition to this.. we made an easy exit plan. we gave them a year to get out and keep their pensions intact. They still want to keep fighting... unable to accept that they have lost but the biggest big names are in the process of leaving now. All of the new rules go into effect January 1.

If you go looking right now you probably won't notice much different. but over the next 15 months you will see giant changes. Most likely a completely new American Methodist Church being formed by the idiot liberals.

Blogger Dave Dave September 08, 2019 10:14 AM  

@44. Isn't that backwards? There's a very good reason to prohibit premarital sex. Look at marriage stats.

@45. The Bible literally warned us about this dozens of times. The Churchians, professing to be righteous, are the most despicable of all. Even the pharisees knew that what they were doing was wrong; they lacked the moral compass to change their behaviour. Churchians can't discriminate between truth and lies.

Blogger Titanium Bear September 08, 2019 10:14 AM  

@47 Nate
The Wesley Brothers would approve

Blogger Titanium Bear September 08, 2019 10:17 AM  

@48
Say it forwards and the irony goes away

Blogger Calvin809 September 08, 2019 10:18 AM  

Why do Baptists oppose drinking? Because it might lead to dancing.

Blogger The Cooler September 08, 2019 10:20 AM  

The article is funny, of course.

As I am certain other Southerners can attest to, keeping up appearances without putting on airs -- yes, this is a thing -- is part and parcel to the Southern upper crust, as it were.

Many such... cultural imbuements made there way into the Church and manifest in strange and occasionally unsavory ways.



Blogger Jeff aka Orville September 08, 2019 10:21 AM  

Thanks Nate! I'll start following those stories now and in the future.

Blogger liberranter September 08, 2019 10:22 AM  

Baptists are the archtype of the zombie churchians who read the last part of Matthew 10:16 to say "... brainless as turkeys and harmless as doves."

Blogger Jeff aka Orville September 08, 2019 10:23 AM  

And as loud as a braying ass and proud of it.

Blogger Dave Dave September 08, 2019 10:26 AM  

@54. It uses that translation in the New Complete Modern Revised Living American King James Version.

Blogger Calvin809 September 08, 2019 10:29 AM  

Do the rebel churches still get to keep church property or just the pensions?

Blogger liberranter September 08, 2019 10:33 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Silent Draco September 08, 2019 10:34 AM  

"Brothers in Chrst"

Great. Get your brother out of trouble and get him home. Then, take him out behind the garage, beat the figurative $@@# out and some sense in. Do this before the Father opens the big can of whoop while judging; maybe it'll help.

We're called to help our brothers, not be taken advantage of.

Blogger liberranter September 08, 2019 10:37 AM  

@Azure Amaranthine

Ehh, to the extent I recall, all the Bible says on the topic is that it's okay to drink but not become drunk. Kind of like a fair number of other things, so long as you control it instead of it controlling you, you're fine.

EXACTLY.

The loudest and most obnoxious churchian prohibitionists I've ever met --ALL OF THEM, TO THE VERY LAST-- have been recovering alcoholics, people whose own weakness, irresponsible life choices, and lack of self-control led them into booze slavery. They INVARIABLY project their own faults and weaknesses onto others as the basis for their non-biblical exhortations to prohibition. Insufferable, sanctimonious frauds, the whole lot of them.

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim September 08, 2019 10:41 AM  

Owen and Wranglestar have both given up drinking completely and seem to be better for it. I think it depends on the convictions and discipline of each person. If you can answer “who’s your master?” As a Christian with, “Christ”, then everything else is conquered.

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim September 08, 2019 10:45 AM  

Are you sure it isn’t the reverse? I ask because I worked a few high school dances and you could pretty much bet on who would end up pregnant by how many dudes they would let saddle them on the gym floor.

Blogger Calvin809 September 08, 2019 10:50 AM  

Yes, the original 1611 KJV would likely be satanic to them also if they knew it existed.

Blogger Titanium Bear September 08, 2019 11:01 AM  

@62 the Shakers danced, a lot. But they didn't reproduce, so the sect withered. Chaperoned church socials vs banging in the back seat of Daddy's car

Blogger Chris Ritchie September 08, 2019 11:09 AM  

Great. Get your brother out of trouble and get him home. Then, take him out behind the garage, beat the figurative $@@# out and some sense in. Do this before the Father opens the big can of whoop while judging; maybe it'll help.

We're called to help our brothers, not be taken advantage of.


This.

Blogger David Ray Milton September 08, 2019 11:10 AM  

My humble prediction is that Churchianity will be analogous to Pharisee-ism in the first century. The harvest will become plentiful over the next few decades as conditions likely deteriorate and materialism is seen for the lie that it is.

The Churchians will use these surface issues to keep new Christians out while keeping a keen eye for other cardinal Churchian virtues like tolerance, pacifism, and humility, or if you prefer, not-being-racist, being effeminate, and being really really nice all of the time while smiling like an idiot.

Blogger Dirk Manly September 08, 2019 11:12 AM  

@62

"Are you sure it isn’t the reverse? I ask because I worked a few high school dances and you could pretty much bet on who would end up pregnant by how many dudes they would let saddle them on the gym floor."

Isn't the job of school dance chaperones, among other things, SPECIFICALLY to put a stop to that kind of behavior on the dance floor.

Blogger justthinkin September 08, 2019 11:16 AM  

Years ago, my father-in-law observed how times had changed: Methodists had started to acknowledge each other when they were in the liquor store.

Blogger Crush Limbraw September 08, 2019 11:18 AM  

Hey Sterling, your "Vox, have you ever shared your thoughts on election or proselytizing (The Great Commission)?"
Why do you equate The Great Commission to proselytizing?
Did Jesus proselytize?
If you look up the definition of the word - proselytizing is a long way from making disciples!
It is not standing on street corners to invite people to church. The closest definition I would compare is apprenticeship.
My whole internet presence is based on Matt. 28:18-20 - and it ain't proselytizing!
Its making disciples!

Blogger Scuzzaman September 08, 2019 11:20 AM  

I’ve seen a lot of that “new wine” is non-alcoholic dreck, having been raised in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. But the problem is that Peter says, when at Pentecost he and others are accused of being drunk at 9 in the morning, that; “these men are not full of new wine” ... which totally demolishes that proposition.

As with many (all?) things, making a bad argument is worse than ignorance.

Blogger Dave Dave September 08, 2019 11:21 AM  

@61. Owen gave up alcohol because he realised it was an indulgence for him. It wasn't because the Southern Baptists said it would take him to hell.

Blogger DonReynolds September 08, 2019 11:31 AM  

My Dad's side of the family have been Southern Baptists for many generations. On my Mother's side it was Presbyterian. There were good reasons for both and both sides of the family had more than their fair share of drunks.

The Presbyterians are the Church of Scotland and the Campbells brought that church to frontier America, long before the Revolution. My grandfather, John Dempsey Campbell, was a Presbyterian preacher all his adult life at the Shiloh Presbyterian church (Sumner County, Tennessee)...the same exact frontier church Colin Campbell also founded in 1793.

Just how did a small exiled group of Baptists (Roger Williams) found the Rhode Island colony and later become one of the biggest denominations in the South is a matter of considerable debate, but the most plausible explanation is the American civil war. Confederate prisoners of war were treated rather badly and they died like flies in prison camps of cold, starvation, disease, and lack of medicine. It was the tiny Baptist church in the North that took an interest and visited the camps with food, blankets, clothes, medicine, mail, newspapers, and the Baptist message of Christ's love and salvation. Camp Douglas in Chicago is the camp that immediately comes to mind (and the Chicago winters). Just how many bodies and souls the Baptists saved during the civil war can only be estimated, but it obviously made a big impression on the Confederate prisoners and when they were released, they returned to their homes alive and with a new faith. This was probably the best work the Baptists ever accomplished.

Blogger Zaklog the Great September 08, 2019 11:33 AM  

@46 The other problem is that the people opposed to all of this are big time cucks. I always hear the term "benefit of the doubt" and "they are our brothers in Christ".

Now you're making me think of this Order of the Stick comic. "Disturbing, if true."

Blogger Scuzzaman September 08, 2019 11:36 AM  

Acts 2: 13 to 15, in case it’s of interest.

I messed up the quote but otherwise it’s a solid refutation.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd September 08, 2019 11:38 AM  

Stg58/Animal Mother wrote:The SBC central is full of the cuck traitors. And they split from us in the 1830's to go play churchian bitch. Primitive Baptists are the real deal.

Can you point me at the PB statement of doctrine?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 08, 2019 11:43 AM  

Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's love and laughter and good red wine
May it ever remain so.
Benedicamus Domino
--Hillaire Belloc

Blogger ZhukovG September 08, 2019 11:49 AM  

The Baptist churches were big in the South going back to the American Revolution. My own family, antebellum, were Primitive Baptists.

In my own experience, every SBC church I have visited, attended and even joined, preached the evil of alcohol, love of Israel, and the primacy of the gospel according to Hal Lindsey. Note that all these churches were otherwise good traditional Southern Baptist churches.

I find it amazing, considering the comments, that I somehow managed to find nothing but the apparently tiny handful of SBC churches parodied by the Babylon Bee.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd September 08, 2019 11:51 AM  

Sterling Pilgrim wrote:Vox, have you ever shared your thoughts on election or proselytizing (The Great Commission)? I

I'm curious about Vox's take on that, too.

Re-reading Matthew 28, I see that the great commission is a call to make disciples and baptise. Nothing about outreach, nothing about convincing or converting, nothing about preaching the gosple to the unsaved, even.

Presumably the Holy Spirit will do all that, because our only call is to make disciples.

If we are ``converting'' sinners under our own power, why would we be surprised to find the converts subverting our doctrine and our churches?

Blogger JaimeInTexas September 08, 2019 11:54 AM  

70. Scuzzaman

I have that too. A byproduct of fermentation is CO2, which, causes wineskins to stretch. The only way to have non-alcoholic win is to drink the juice not fermented. Good luck with that in the days before refrigeration or pasteurization.


Mathew 9
14 Then John’s disciples came and asked him, “How is it that we and the Pharisees fast often, but your disciples do not fast?”

15 Jesus answered, “How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.

16 “No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. 17 Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

Blogger Matt Robison September 08, 2019 12:00 PM  

If you take a Baptist fishing, he'll drink all of your beer. If you take two Baptists fishing, you'll have all of the beer to yourself.

Blogger Matt Robison September 08, 2019 12:01 PM  

Also my favorite contortion was an attempt to say that Jesus turned water into raisin paste. I thought it was a joke. Nope.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd September 08, 2019 12:03 PM  

Crush Limbraw wrote:Why do you equate The Great Commission to proselytizing?

Did Jesus proselytize?

If you look up the definition of the word - proselytizing is a long way from making disciples!
....
My whole internet presence is based on Matt. 28:18-20 - and it ain't proselytizing!


Good to see I'm not the only one who noticed that.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd September 08, 2019 12:07 PM  

Scuzzaman wrote:But the problem is that Peter says, when at Pentecost he and others are accused of being drunk at 9 in the morning, that; “these men are not full of new wine” ... which totally demolishes that proposition.

New wine has alcohol, old wine has vinegar.

Blogger Horace September 08, 2019 12:14 PM  

I tried a whiteclaw for the first time Friday night and it reminded me of a tonic from a laboratory instead of a brewhouse, i could only drink half.

All we will have in a censored society is the power of suggestion and sometimes even that is too much for many diversity minded Christians or pantheists. These Churchians take their God of diversity and wield it against all sources of earthly and heavenly power then channel the rebuke meant for themselves against all that they have deemed their brethren.

I thought i was raised a Christian, my earliest memories include understanding that I am bad because Jesus had to die for me, reading the bible in entirety, and most importantly first having it read and taught to me by a family member who would later deny it. When I was old enough, pre-schooling, I attended Sunday school at a baptist institution after which i was asked if i liked it and i supposedly said i didn't so i was never taken back. I always was close to a copy of the book and read it as any other book on the shelf periodically.I have spent my life battling evil with every force in my lfe as well as into the depths of my soul, I have converted many but never to true Christianity. I often see elements of the old pantheons as more useful to explain and rationalize the world. Am I Churchian? a pantheist, or just a heathen?

Blogger Didas Kalos September 08, 2019 12:15 PM  

All the way from Ireland, of all places. :) Jesus did NOT contribute to anyone's drunkeness or he himself would have sinned. Which he never did.
https://keithmalcomson.weebly.com/should-christians-drink-alcohol.html
Buy the book and read it.

Blogger JaimeInTexas September 08, 2019 12:15 PM  

@78

Mark 6
2 So they went out and proclaimed that people should repent. 13 And they cast out many demons and anointed with oil many who were sick and healed them.

Acts2
14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words.

Acts 21, 22

Romans 10
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

Blogger VD September 08, 2019 12:17 PM  

Are you sure it isn’t the reverse?

It's a joke. Don't sperg over jokes.

Blogger Matt Robison September 08, 2019 12:18 PM  

God Gave Wine is a great book that deals with every text and argument. The author doesn't even drink, out of choice, and shows decisively that it is a blessing from God

Blogger JaimeInTexas September 08, 2019 12:22 PM  

@83
I have made vinegar with green grapes. Fermentation but without an airlock.
I use old red wine to make vinegar, too.
Wineskins are not impermeable and, over time, will let the CO2 escape and oxidation will occur. Similar to opening/decanting wine and letting it sit for too long.

Blogger X September 08, 2019 12:28 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger The Depolrable Podunk Ken Ramsey September 08, 2019 12:33 PM  

DonReynolds wrote:Just how did a small exiled group of Baptists (Roger Williams) found the Rhode Island colony and later become one of the biggest denominations in the South is a matter of considerable debate

Alcoholism has been a tremendous problem where I'm from (Appalachia). We still have moonshiners and revenuers crawling through the woods, playing cat-and-mouse. Thanks to the fact that Magic Dirt isn't what it's cracked up to be, my ancestors got off the boat in the Virginia Colony and took up where they left off in Scotland. They headed for the hills to distill whiskey, and they are still doing it.

If you're interested in this topic, here's a truly wonderful book, highly recommended:

The Man Who Moved A Mountain

It's the remarkable story of a man's ministry in the backwoods. In this case he was Presbyterian, but his story does a great job of setting the scene that everybody including the Baptists faced. The book's setting is the turn of the 20th century. Most of the people in the parts of Appalachia here were Primitive Baptists when he began.

The battle against alcohol was a serious problem of this era. It's easy to see why the stance against alcohol helped the Southern Baptists grow. It may have always been seen as a more important social belief of that church, moreso than a theological one.

Blogger rumpole5 September 08, 2019 12:34 PM  

Point made, wine beer and alcohol have their place. but as I said "SWILLING" (drinking it to excess) alcohol cannot be pleasing to God, unless you are anesthtizing someone to amputate a limb or something. The same is true of using harmful drugs, under exercising, overeating, oversexing, undersexing, or anything else that denigrates one's body. We are not our own, we were bought for a price.

Blogger sammibandit September 08, 2019 12:42 PM  

Thanks for talking about this part of your history and the history of America. As an aside, I have a book on towns of Alberta and many here were founded by Scots. In short, Scots were not welcome in Frencg towns so they formed their own towns. To this day the Scottish founded towns are more Old Stock nationalist. You might call that Heritage American nationalist. Lots of military representation in from the past to present among Scots as well.

Blogger Gen. Kong September 08, 2019 12:48 PM  

I'd rather visit a Mosque and pray to Mecca 5 times a day than to subject myself to fake Christianity.

I understand the sentiment very well and have even made similar remarks in the past myself. Owen had a very interesting comment on a recent Bearstream in discussing one of the Synagogue of Satan's latest tikkuning of the olam: shoving "Tranny-Hour" down the throats of all who resist by lawfare or the jackboot of state power (depending on locale).

The Big Bear noted they'd never do it to a mosque because the Musloids would't stand for it. That's absolutely true as far as it goes, but it ignores that the Musloids are authorized to resist this, along with many other aspects of the program (even feminism and abortion). Being authorized Musloids would never be sent to jail or lose their jobs or be cut off from the jizya (welfare) payments used to fund extra wives and large families.

The small hats are just fine with you converting to Islam, YT. The Pedopope Franny is even angling for a shiny new one-world religion fashioned upon Moohammedism. The endgame is the same for YT as you'll be bred out of existence into the vast heard of mud-cattle there for the hats to rule over eternally. Moohammed's Talmud-lite religion is fine and dandy with the hats' grand plan to rule over the planet under the Noahide laws in service to their "god".

At the end of the day, those who want Christianity eradicated really don't much care whether you bow your knee before the Judeo-Christ skinsuit for Baphomet or the Allah skinsuit for him - as long as you bow the knee to their master.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd September 08, 2019 12:49 PM  

JaimeInTexas wrote:@78
Mark 6
Acts2
Acts 21, 22
Romans 10


Once they're convicted and converted, they need to know Jesus is the way to God, and how to follow Him. There is nothing wrong with planting seeds in the unsaved for the Holy Spirit to bring to fruition later, but forcing hothouse flowers of faith is wrong-headed.

Blogger Brett baker September 08, 2019 12:58 PM  

Baptist revivals and circuit preachers.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 08, 2019 1:00 PM  

"They INVARIABLY project their own faults and weaknesses onto others as the basis for their non-biblical exhortations to prohibition. Insufferable, sanctimonious frauds, the whole lot of them."

I mean, I'm not going to be drinking around those people if that's the case. We can eat food offered to idols, but why do it right in front of people who that will tempt to sin? Better not.

If they're trying to tell me that I shouldn't drink when they by chance run into me, on the other hand... they need to be reminded of who exactly it is who has the problem.

"I find it amazing, considering the comments, that I somehow managed to find nothing but the apparently tiny handful of SBC churches parodied by the Babylon Bee."

No one said that most of them weren't that way. People's individual experiences are their individual experiences.

I know some people will immediately and erroneously say that because of their discrete experience the generality is wrong, but I don't see any of them here just yet.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 08, 2019 1:11 PM  

I also know a guy who absolutely refuses to lie at any time for any reason whatsoever. Wouldn't lie to Satan himself in order to draw his attention away from said guy's children, just either tell the truth or refuse to speak. I can understand and respect that, especially when I look at his family's history and that they just can't control that cat once it gets out of the bag. It's like playing with fire even if you don't have a generational proclivity to getting burned down inside the house.

Blogger Welsh Woodsman September 08, 2019 1:17 PM  

I grew up attending a Christian school led by teachers and a pastor who had come out of the New Brunswick Bible Institute. This seminary school produce a virulent strain of legalist Baptists. Like our esteemed host - I distinctly remember , at the age of 10, making the point to my teacher that Jesus turned the water into wine so it was impossible for drinking to be a sin. In all seriousness his response was " it was grape juice being served at that wedding -not wine". I remember thinking to myself how full of shit this guy was.
Also, for fun me and a buddy used to troll our pastor/principal by "smoking" candy cigarettes. He would force us to stop - claiming that just flirting with "sin" like this was wrong. Of course he believed erroneously that smoking was a sin.

Blogger Nathan Bruno September 08, 2019 1:30 PM  

I like how there isn't really a central baptist denomination that can declare X to be orthodoxy (the SBC churches even only half pretend to agree on what the messengers vote on), but I am inclined to the MacArthur cerebral school rather than the Piper emotional school of unaligned baptists. (Baptists sometimes seem to have elected one of those two men pope, though.) People who want the centralization of declaring what is and is not orthodoxy are doing the devil's work; there should only be the local church body, with enough wisdom in the elder men of the congregation to see that, if someone comes telling you that the Bible doesn't allow drinking wine or if the Bible allows gays who are being "true to themselves", read it for themselves and see both are working their hobby horses contra the text.

The fact that there are baptists who handle snakes and say it's because there's a particular verse they read a certain way is the price of freedom and the beauty of God's plan. I'd rather defend the snake-handling baptists as my people than the ones who want to say that the Bible doesn't talk about wine everywhere. Our forebears who came to this country drank short beer all the time because the water wasn't good; the whole Puritan contingent was slightly buzzed, and they had some of the greatest clarity of understanding of the Scriptures.

Blogger Scott September 08, 2019 1:40 PM  

Prohibition is unbiblical churchianity.

But, there are scriptures that warn against strong drink. It was common practice to add water to wine.

Blogger Calvin809 September 08, 2019 1:41 PM  

I always thought the Puritans had to have some very large balls to execute Charles I. Maybe they were slightly buzzed too.

Blogger The Cooler September 08, 2019 1:46 PM  

Thou shalt not drink alcohol. For drinking maketh it too difficult to keepeth a consistent workout schedule.

Blogger Gilbert Ratchet September 08, 2019 1:59 PM  

Can't resist that old joke:

Jews don't recognize Jesus as the Messiah
Protestants don't recognize the assumption of the Virgin Mary
Baptists don't recognize each other in the liquor store

Blogger CM September 08, 2019 2:05 PM  

It just sounds like every western church is pozzed.

I finally jettisoned from the Episcopal church because I found stuff infiltrating into Sunday school. The Episcopal church has always been horrific about reading the Bible and learning scripture, relying more heavily on church doctors and theologians to tell them what to think... which is it's own recipe for disaster in the age of expert indoctrination.

I've become more orthodox in my practice and theology, but the eastern taste of it is so foreign and there are so few churches near us.

I ended up in a Baptist church because at least they teach the kids the scripture, Bible stories, and reading discipline/memorization. I have been doing it, too, but it's nice to be in a community that emphasizes it.

I am frustrated with their theology in some places, but it is not nearly so off the rails as where I came from and the community of believers was becoming a necessity for my kids and myself. Staying true to your faith is better done in a like minded community and we needed that.

Blogger JaimeInTexas September 08, 2019 2:35 PM  

@95
Agreed. Proclaiming of the Gospel, preaching, witnessing ... it does not mean we have to be assholes in doing it. On the other hand, if conversion occurs, it is better not to be able to point at whomever and credit the great looks or the great oratory skills or the great intellect. On the other hand, those descriptions should not also be used to discourage.

Crazy vessels of the great message of salvation, we are.

Blogger Argus Bacchus September 08, 2019 2:38 PM  

@31 Nate

"..and the United Methodists are literally purging the progressives."

I recall Vox saying something about that in a Darkstream the other day too.

As a fan of John Wesley's Bible commentary and someone who is starting to read his collected sermons, that's good to know.

Blogger Guy Incognito September 08, 2019 2:38 PM  

Noted.

Blogger Dan in Georgia September 08, 2019 2:39 PM  

Titanium Bear wrote:Premarital sex is banned because it might lead to young people dancing.

Watching "Footloose" made me want to ban dancing.

Blogger DonReynolds September 08, 2019 2:44 PM  

ZhukovG wrote:The Baptist churches were big in the South going back to the American Revolution. My own family, antebellum, were Primitive Baptists.

I had an interesting conversation with a group of historians once. I asked why all the Mayors of Nashville had been Presbyterian. They told me that until fairly recently the urban-rural contrast was also reflected by the churches. The rural or country churches were typically the fundamentalist churches...such as Baptist, Assembly of God, Pentecostal, Evangelical, and Adventist. And the urban or town churches were more likely to be Presbyterian (except Cumberland), Methodist, and Episcopalian...and sometimes Roman Catholic (depending on immigration).

The main exception to this rural-urban tendency was the missionary efforts, preaching the Gospel to the Indians (and Eskimos and Hawaiian natives) outside of white areas. Mormons were relative late-comers to the idea of preaching to the Indians, probably because Utah was carved out of territory occupied by hostile Indians at the time.

Blogger Ned September 08, 2019 2:48 PM  

Love to see the Babylon Bee do dietary advice from obese Baptists next.

Blogger MichaelJMaier September 08, 2019 2:49 PM  

I stopped going to one non-denominational church because the preacher said "juice" instead of wine in his preaching. I thought I'd mis-heard. Nope. Over and over. "Juice".

It hit me like a slap to the face. I was disgusted by his capitulatory cowardice and haven't returned since.

Blogger rumpole5 September 08, 2019 2:56 PM  

Wow! Looks like the secret life of imbibing Baptists rivals Boomer banging as a comment generator!

Re: the Great Commission, I recommend a look at Greek Geeking the great commission:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://thinktheology.org/2013/11/07/greek-geeking-the-great-commission-in-matthew/&ved=2ahUKEwi348nk1sHkAhVN0KwKHU_vADEQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2PZt5nw9I1vLy8XktJBqE-

It really opened my eyes on the subject.

Blogger Glaivester September 08, 2019 3:15 PM  

@109:

Which one? The original or the remake?

Blogger Newscaper312 September 08, 2019 3:21 PM  

Mother in law, 85yo, was raised as an old school Methodist. Wont drink a drop. As a child she remembered Baptists *not* being as uptight about alcohol as the Methodists, but then it all became about putting on a big show of it.
It always got me... WTF do you think they were doing at the Wedding at Cana when Jesus first miracle was to keep the party going for his friends? We are Catholic FWIW.
Actually had a Jehovahs Witness acquaintance give me a pretty good take one time: drinking alcohol not a sin, nor even getting a good buzz in the right context. But habitual drunkeness where you're failing in your responsibilities to family, being a danger, etc, is.

Blogger Doktor Jeep September 08, 2019 3:26 PM  

This is why bible-thumping baptists tend to raise leftists. With these bellicose people, everything is judged "of the lord" or not. They are basically SJWs before there were SJWs.

So their kids grow up hating all things Christ. But since they were raised by weak-minded people who needed something to bend the knee to, these kids end up bending it for the state. But with the same zeal as their bible-thumping parents.

Overall though, this baptist "thing" has plagued western civilization for centuries. It was people like this who, in the earliest form of temperance movement, moved beer brewing to all-hop varieties. Prior to that, hops where merely an ingredient, if at all, in beer. Beer was bittered with a wider variety of herbs, many with more intoxicating effects.

Can't have that, can we? Oh no. Anything that causes more human life to be created is a bad thing.

Blogger Welsh Woodsman September 08, 2019 3:32 PM  

"Actually had a Jehovahs Witness acquaintance give me a pretty good take one time: drinking alcohol not a sin, nor even getting a good buzz in the right context. But habitual drunkeness where you're failing in your responsibilities to family, being a danger, etc, is."

Out of all of the religious sects out there the JW's seem to have the healthiest view of alcohol.
I had a client who also was a JW and he loved brewing and drinking beer. He's since passed on but he was a lot of fun to be around. Highly responsible in all parts of his life and an unbelievably hard worker , he lived a life in the balance..enjoying all that it has to offer.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch September 08, 2019 3:37 PM  

I was Southern Baptist before my conversion to Catholicism. The latter was extremely cliquish.

Blogger SmokeyJoe September 08, 2019 3:40 PM  

Proverbs 31:6 "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, And wine unto those that be of heavy hearts."

-Remember God's law, and be fair in your judgment. However a little wine is good for the sake of your stomach when under great pressure.

Proverbs 31:7 "Let him drink, and forget his poverty, And remember his misery no more."

-This means, and YOUR mileage may very- between you and God,that you keep an eye on your down an out brother, and not allow it to get out of hand. Stay with your brother, and keep him safe while he tries to reset from his misery.

Blogger Dan in Georgia September 08, 2019 3:41 PM  

@114 The "Footloose" with Kevin Bacon. Don't think I watched the whole thing, it was on TV. It was ham-handedly anti-Christian (almost like a Stephen King book). It just oozed propaganda. It was as subtle as a 2x4 to the head.

Blogger JaimeInTexas September 08, 2019 3:51 PM  

Protestant Heaven
Catholic Heaven
... Jesus .. his gone native
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4IletJ7-Tw

Blogger NewTunesForOldLogos September 08, 2019 4:09 PM  

Eating isn’t a sin. Gluttony is.
Sleeping isn’t a sin. Sloth is.
Drinking isn’t a sin. Drunkenness is.

When you take control of your life from the Logos, and give it over to something else, that is sinful.

Blogger dadofhomeschoolers September 08, 2019 4:09 PM  

Around here it's Mennonites.
Why do you take two Mennonites with when you go fishing?
Because if you take just one, he'll drink all your beer

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother September 08, 2019 4:15 PM  

Ominous Cowherd,

There is no central statement of Primitive Baptist doctrine. Each church posts its articles of faith, and they line up with each other.

http://oakhillpbc.org/about-us/

http://littlezionpbc.org/Articles_of_Faith.htm

The first link is my church. The second is the church where I was baptized.

Blogger Beau September 08, 2019 4:18 PM  

OT

Breakfast (scrambled eggs, sausage, bacon, pancakes, biscuits, etc.) is served gratis before Sunday school. We invite all after eating to attend the lesson. Some do.

During this morning's lesson the question was asked, "Why don't you come to Christ?" Many answers were offered, the one catching my attention was, "If all you know is rejection, you are afraid of, and expect more of only rejection." Why bother?

The response went along the lines of, "Do you think God is a liar?" We discussed at length believing God'd word or relying on our experience. It all boiling down to the question the serpent asked Eve, "Did God really say?" or, who do you trust?

Jake, a homeless guy, was listening intently, and asking questions trying to grasp it. What broke through to him was a recounting of Polycarp being led to his death. When the Roman governor told Polycarp all he needed to do to be free was to renounce Christ, Polycarp responded, "Eightysix years have I known him, and he had never done me any wrong. How now can I renounce why king who loves me?" Jake got it.

Behold the fields are white unto harvest.

Blogger liberranter September 08, 2019 4:22 PM  

@97

I mean, I'm not going to be drinking around those people if that's the case.

No, certainly not. I have no desire to "evangelize" alcohol consumption and respect everyone's right to partake, or not, as they choose. What I strongly object to is the militant, belligerent legalism that has no scriptural foundation whatsoever. It's the invention of weak, deluded people who wish to project that delusion and weakness onto others.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother September 08, 2019 4:23 PM  

Liberranter,

Same thing with the vegetarians.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 08, 2019 5:25 PM  

Doktor Jeep wrote:It was people like this who, in the earliest form of temperance movement, moved beer brewing to all-hop varieties. Prior to that, hops where merely an ingredient, if at all, in beer. Beer was bittered with a wider variety of herbs, many with more intoxicating effects.
This is false.
Hops were introduced into commercial beer brewing because the monasteries of Central Europe had a monopoly of many of the most popular bittering agents. Brewers in Lutheran areas began using hops because the could get no other. It soon became a badge of Protestantism.

Hops took over the brewing industry because they are an anti-bacterial and anti-oxidant. Hops prevent spoilage, allowing beer to be kept for months longer, even in warm weather or during shipping. The industrialization of beer made hops more-or-less mandatory for large brewers.

Blogger Greg from the Piedmont September 08, 2019 5:48 PM  

The president of the SBC is JD Greear, and his church, Summit RDU toe the party line. As SBC president, he has been asked by victims of Baptist pedophiles to do something about the sexual abuse of children in SBC churches. So far he has refused to endorse any denominational action against the wolves attacking the most innocent members of the flock.

More traits that the SBC is falling away:
- Men are undercut in their families. When Mothers Day comes, the sermons are about mothers being the bedrock of the family. When Fathers Day rolls around, the message is "You guys need to stop looking at porn and beating your family!"
- Homosexuals are "supported" as fellow sinners, and we should not exclude them from being among us
- Scripture is being explained away so that meaning are becoming muddled.
- The worship has degraded to the point that songs consist of a few catchy lines of bumper sticker theology sung over and over until a state of bliss is achieved.
- The Eucharist at Summit has become "Y'all have some crackers and juice on your way out!"
- Small groups cover light topics with a depth I haven't seen since I was a kid.

I was raised in a backwoods Baptist church that looked on the SBC as a bunch of backsliders. I guess that old church was right.

Where does a Christian go for worship? Nondenominational churches are simply personality cults that will stray from orthodox theology whenever the senior pastor has an inclination. Protestantism is failing the West and refuses to take a stand to defend what we once had. The only churches I see taking a stand for traditional Christianity are the Catholic Church in Poland and the Orthodox Church in Russia. That would be a long drive from Raleigh, but I'm willing.

Blogger TheGhostlyOne September 08, 2019 5:48 PM  

A decade ago, this would have made me gloat. “Look at these hypocritical Protestants.” I’ve long since gotten my comeuppance there.

Because they can be hypocrites every day for the rest of their lives, but they will never be worse than Bergoglio, and the mainstream American Catholic parish.

Just putting this in there to remind any arrogant Catholics that we don’t have room to gloat.
I’d rather be in a foxhole with a based Baptist than the typical Novus Ordo cuckservative molester priest.

Blogger Sam Sutherland September 08, 2019 6:02 PM  

Getting ready to bottle my 20% Apple Wine!

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 08, 2019 6:35 PM  

TheGhostlyOne wrote:A decade ago, this would have made me gloat. “Look at these hypocritical Protestants.” I’ve long since gotten my comeuppance there.
#metoo

Blogger Unknown September 08, 2019 6:58 PM  

"Despite alcohol's dangers, Lenow suspects the Baptist consensus on alcohol may be shifting. As evidence, he cites the lifting of alcohol bans at two Christian schools friendly to the SBC: Moody Bible Institute in 2013 and Dallas Theological Seminary in 2014."

Blogger Jordan September 08, 2019 7:04 PM  

"Despite alcohol's dangers, Lenow suspects the Baptist consensus on alcohol may be shifting. As evidence, he cites the lifting of alcohol bans at two Christian schools friendly to the SBC: Moody Bible Institute in 2013 and Dallas Theological Seminary in 2014. He also recalls a conversation with the former pastor of a notable Southern Baptist church who spoke openly of his own alcohol use."

Blogger Ominous Cowherd September 08, 2019 8:21 PM  

JaimeInTexas wrote:On the other hand, if conversion occurs, it is better not to be able to point at whomever and credit the great looks or the great oratory skills or the great intellect.

If someone is convinced by human rhetoric, he can be unconvinced by it, too. As you say, best to let the Holy Spirit do its work, and not give someone a false assurance of salvation.

Blogger NRx September 08, 2019 8:22 PM  

Say what you will about them but at least Southern Baptists vote the right way. They voted for Trump in both the general election AND most of them voted for him in the primary. Evangelicals in other parts of the country were reluctant supporters who tended to be Cruzlims... Southern Baptists were the only denomination to see Trump as God's anointed monarch early on. And they seem to be resisting the pozzing of their church bureaucracy.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd September 08, 2019 8:30 PM  

Stg58/Animal Mother wrote:
The first link is my church. The second is the church where I was baptized.


Thank you.

Blogger BriarRabbit September 08, 2019 9:46 PM  

I attend a Southern Baptist church. It is on the edge of Appalachia, where the bluegrass meets the mountains. I have never heard any mention of the SBC.

I was quite red-pill before discovering Christianity is the final and biggest red pill there is. So I was an atheist until age 43 and I'm now 45.

My pastor, whom I knew in high school, has used anti-social justice wording and phrasing. He never heard the phrase "red pill" or "social justice warrior". He speaks openly against homosexuality and is not afraid to preach from any part of scripture.

Red-pill your church. I don't speak up a lot in bible study, but when I do it is with the intent of helping someone understand something, answering a question someone has, or with the ultimate intent of red-pilling further. Just last week I got to speak against so-called "free speech".

I'm not afraid of being ostracized. If the church asked me to not return, I'd be fine with it. Jesus spoke truth without fear and I can only try to follow in His footsteps.

So find a church. Red-pill the folks.

I'm ordering a copy of "SJWs always lie" to give to my pastor as a Christmas present.

Blogger BriarRabbit September 08, 2019 10:12 PM  

Something someone may help me shed light on - despite my church's willingness to stick to scripture and speak out against sin, I've found they are often reluctant to engage in confrontation with other church members when it comes to fulfilling the obligations of roles.

For example, they let the Treasurer continue to fill the position even though she switched churches. This went on for many months, possibly years, until the finances got so badly mixed up it was unavoidable.

They seem to not want to take someone to task for not meeting a standard or an obligation.

Another example: The church bus broke down on a trip. It was not being maintained. When I offered to be the one who drove it weekly and kept it maintained, I was told they already had someone doing that. The person wasn't doing it, obviously.

I'm very blunt and have no problem calling someone out if they aren't doing their job. I find this a contradiction to the obvious anti-SJW stance of the members. Is this a sign of churchianity? Or just something in Christian folks that I don't yet understand?

Blogger cyrus83 September 08, 2019 11:41 PM  

Man seems to like extremes more than the middle ground in between them, and often an excess that is rightfully condemned leads to an opposite reaction that goes too far the other way. I think the Chestertonian turn of phrase on this is that men are often right about what is wrong, but wrong about what is right.

Drunken behavior gave rise to condemnation of drink altogether, despite the Bible being very clear in many places that drinking wine was perfectly acceptable. Excessive devotions bordering on superstition periodically lead to iconoclasm. Ages of sexual deviance are frequently followed by ages of sexual prudery, and vice versa.

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim September 09, 2019 12:03 AM  

Dave Dave wrote:@61. Owen gave up alcohol because he realised it was an indulgence for him. It wasn't because the Southern Baptists said it would take him to hell.

I watched the stream where he addressed it, and from what I understood, he started by trying to just go through the winter without drinking, and then decided that he would need to just stop completely on principle. He said that the streams suffered after x amount of white claws and the next morning he wasn't there for his family the way he wanted to be. This is a great example of recognizing the presence of an idol in one's life and having the conviction to get rid of it so that it doesn't dampen the presence of Logos in one's life. Taking off a chain and laying it aside, if you will.

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim September 09, 2019 12:13 AM  

Ominous Cowherd wrote:Sterling Pilgrim wrote:Vox, have you ever shared your thoughts on election or proselytizing (The Great Commission)? I

I'm curious about Vox's take on that, too.

Re-reading Matthew 28, I see that the great commission is a call to make disciples and baptise. Nothing about outreach, nothing about convincing or converting, nothing about preaching the gosple to the unsaved, even.

Presumably the Holy Spirit will do all that, because our only call is to make disciples.

If we are ``converting'' sinners under our own power, why would we be surprised to find the converts subverting our doctrine and our churches?


I could be under the wrong impression as to what "converting" is or "convincing" but I always thought that what the disciples did in Acts and what Paul attempted to do in Rome was exactly converting the gentiles to be Disciples of Christ. I understood proselytizing not as an end but as a means to discipleship. Making disciples is, I agree, the command of the Great Commission, and I view proselytizing as the process to the making of those disciples.
I did some research, and see that Pope Francis called for papists not to proselytize, but many disagree with him:https://streetevangelization.com/blog/2014/09/06/evangelization-vs-proselytizing-2/

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother September 09, 2019 12:31 AM  

Sterling, you do understand there is a big range between no drinking and several white claws, right?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 09, 2019 2:18 AM  

Sterling Pilgrim wrote:I did some research, and see that Pope Francis called for papists not to proselytize, but many disagree with him:https://streetevangelization.com/blog/2014/09/06/evangelization-vs-proselytizing-2/
There is considerable controversy over whether Bergoglio is actually pope, but in any case, nothing whatever he says is binding.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 09, 2019 5:23 AM  

"Man seems to like extremes more than the middle ground in between them, and often an excess that is rightfully condemned leads to an opposite reaction that goes too far the other way."

As soon as we gained knowledge of good and evil, along with that comes the distinction that evil is everything other than absolute perfection. For every sort of behaviour there is a nearly entire spectrum of evil and only a point of good.

Even more, in some areas that point is different for different people. A liver behaving like a kidney is no good.

Blogger VD September 09, 2019 6:55 AM  

Is this a sign of churchianity? Or just something in Christian folks that I don't yet understand?

Yes. It's what happens to an organization when women take control. They like power but hate responsibility.

Blogger dc.sunsets September 09, 2019 8:07 AM  

Being an Episcopalian 50 years ago meant something. The "something" that was good was discarded, and the "something" that was stupid metastasized. Now the Episcopal Church looks like Attack of the Blob.

Blogger PG September 09, 2019 8:07 AM  

These days I don't drink. I'm far too much of a health snob to be consuming the empty calories of social lubricant. That's right, I'm now one of those annoying healthy people.

As much as I would like the Bible to say no to wine, it does not. Plus, prohibition would not lead to more people like me, but instead to a revolt by the savages. Let them have their wine.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd September 09, 2019 8:47 AM  

Sterling Pilgrim wrote:I could be under the wrong impression as to what "converting" is or "convincing" but I always thought that what the disciples did in Acts and what Paul attempted to do in Rome was exactly converting the gentiles to be Disciples of Christ. I understood proselytizing not as an end but as a means to discipleship. Making disciples is, I agree, the command of the Great Commission, and I view proselytizing as the process to the making of those disciples.

I agree, I think. Of course we don't keep the gospel secret; once convicted by the Holy Spirit, people need to know how to get right with God.

We see churches focusing on outreach, church growth, diluting the gospel to be ``seeker friendly,'' and generally trying to make converts under their own power. Those converts, made without God's grace and power, think they are right with God but are not. When they fall away from their false faith, which was from man and never from God, they are innoculated against true faith; they say ``I tried Christianity, and it didn't work.'' Before they fall way, they further infect a pozzed church, because they bring their worldly beliefs into a worldly, churchian church.

So, manufacturing ``converts'' rather than trusting God imperils souls, and pushes a failing church further from God.

We don't tell the unsaved the gospel to save them, we do it so the unsaved will know how to answer God when He saves them.

Blogger Greg from the Piedmont September 09, 2019 9:48 AM  

VD wrote:They like power but hate responsibility.


Add in the word "accountibility" at the end, and you have just described the execs in every company I have ever worked.

Blogger Teek-Lor September 09, 2019 10:22 AM  

I see the problem is there is little to differentiate between Christians and the current culture at large in the US. Baptists need to create more in-group preferences, customs and habits similar to what Orthodox communities do. Make people have some social skin in the game. Reasoning is fine for the high IQ population, but those on the lower end need more to sustain them. Instead of that, what I see is the religious application of watered down feminism and cuckservative stuff.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd September 09, 2019 11:20 AM  

@151, I think that illustrates my comment in @149.

Blogger Blume September 09, 2019 12:56 PM  

@sterling its another joke about baptists.

Blogger blogger September 09, 2019 1:04 PM  

I, too, was raised Southern Baptist.

I would say the core problem with Baptist is sola scriptura. With belief in the Bible only, anyone can become their own preacher--their own priest. You're cut off from Church history.

This is a recipe for royal kookiness. Witness: Münster rebellion, etc... Lots of churches close down because they get taken over by double-high authoritarians. Others become scenes of various abuses (financial and sexual) because the preacher is the top dog.

Finally, without a firm connection to historic Christianity, Baptists are unusually susceptible to vogue cultural trends (look at the woke SBC now). This is explains why the only "successful" Christian communities from this branch of Christianity strictly separate themselves from contemporary society (Mennonites, Amish, etc...).

I think the only safe choice is to align yourself with the oldest branches of the Christian Church.

Blogger SirHamster September 09, 2019 3:09 PM  

BriarRabbit wrote:I'm very blunt and have no problem calling someone out if they aren't doing their job. I find this a contradiction to the obvious anti-SJW stance of the members. Is this a sign of churchianity? Or just something in Christian folks that I don't yet understand?
It's hypocrisy. (hypo -> "under" crite -> "to judge")

It's paying lip service to what is good without doing what is good. It's acting - "hypocrites" originally referred to stage actors.

Talk is not a substitute for action. Talk and action must be aligned with what is good through proper critical judgement.

Tolerating hypocrisy is itself hypocrisy. Those responsible should do the work. Others should hold them accountable to their roles and responsibilities.

Churchianity itself thrives in hypocrisy. Easier to virtue signal about equalism instead of practicing the Church's mission of Gospel and discipleship.

Blogger X September 09, 2019 3:15 PM  

Evidence of the total failure of the Southern Baptists is your obvious lack of knowledge about Sola Scriptura.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd September 09, 2019 3:17 PM  

@154, there is no system which will not be gamed by the self-serving. Sola scriptura prevents elevating the traditions of men above God's word, and opens the door to other ways to game the system as you say. Having a hierarchy allows the entire organization to be subverted by capturing the hierarchy. Having no hierarchy allows each individual congregation to be captured without interference from above. The issue is never the system, and always whether the men who run the system are following Jesus.

Every church which lasts long enough to become an institution will turn from God. Jesus' Church is not any denomination or institution, it's all the people who are following Him.

There is no panacea which will prevent a church institution from falling away, and there is no need to protect Jesus' Church, because He is protecting it.

Blogger M.S. September 09, 2019 4:51 PM  

All Protestantism eventually degrades in Bible-Lawyering, which is part of why I left Protestantism for Eastern Orthodoxy a few years back.

Blogger X September 09, 2019 10:23 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger PG September 09, 2019 11:28 PM  

One of the reasons I don't drink now is because it lets me counter the Islamic non drinking religion. I'm in a country with a very heavy drinking culture, linked with family violence and other unsavory carry on, particularly in the indigenous population. We also have a few, no drinking, indigenous Muslim sports stars who are seen as role models. Conversion is a real risk, and in fact the indigenous peoples here are converting to Islam at a higher rate than to any other religion.

More tea totaling Christians is a must IMO. I was stoked when I saw the Big Bear give up the booze, because he's a role model for the Christian team. It was like he'd scored a touch down and I jumped off the couch fist pumping the air.

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