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Tuesday, October 08, 2019

Mailvox: a different perspective on Hong Kong

An update on the Hong Kong situation from a mainlander:

I wanted to send this to you last week but the outside internet has been completely inaccessible in China for the past two weeks because of the National Day holiday. They do this every year but it's particularly bad this year.

A few days ago the ENTIRE Hong Kong metro system was closed because the "protesters" went on a rampage in response to a new law making it illegal to wear a mask in public. Every single metro station. Imagine if that had happened in a major American city of ten million people, what the police and the National Guard would do.

Pat Buchanan has an article in which he states, "The people of Hong Kong, who are surely being cheered by many on the mainland of China ..." All respect to Pat Buchanan but he doesn't understand this situation at all.

There is mutual hatred between Hong Kong and mainland people. NO ONE on the mainland is cheering the Hong Kong protesters. They think Hong Kong people are a bunch of spoiled brats who are now wrecking their own city and being used by the West because they think they're better than mainland people. And Hong Kong people, meanwhile, think they ARE better than mainland people because they've had the benefit of a hundred years of imposed quasi-Western civilization and the result is a more well-mannered people and a more orderly society in a higher-quality environment.

But Hong Kong has been going downhill for decades now, due to various reasons that are not reducible to a simple statement, and the mainland has been in the ascendancy. But regardless, if Beijing sends in the troops, (which I don't think they will do because the bad PR outweighs any other benefit; they'll probably just let Hong Kong burn because they don't really need it) I assure you that the vast majority of mainland Chinese will applaud this decision and love their government even more, seeing it as just desserts for a bunch of spoiled traitors, i.e. Chinese who don't want to be Chinese and who collude with the yang guizi (foreign devils).

The global media would of course use any move by Beijing as a way to paint China as the new Nazis. You can see this narrative already developing and being pushed by Bannon and others, as well as the Hong Kong protesters themselves, who are quite obviously trying to provoke a violent response. But for the mainland Chinese, it would only solidify their sense of "us against the world." My fear is that the people who want the next big war are actively pushing in this direction. I hope that Trump and Xi Jinping really are friendly, because they're increasingly looking like Kennedy and Khrushchev.

Labels:

89 Comments:

Blogger Toby Temple October 08, 2019 8:54 AM  

Thank you for that. I always had my reservations in siding with the HK protesters, especially when all this is said to be due to the extradition bill. But it is obviously not just about that after seeing all this continue riots.

Blogger Zerokage October 08, 2019 8:57 AM  

Hong Kong will continue to fade into irrelevance, being just one of dozens of large coastal chinese cities. Another success story of real estate driven financialisation.

Blogger d October 08, 2019 8:59 AM  

The Trump who does the talking won't interfere with China's internal problems. The Trump who does the doing will abide his Semitic masters. So, the only question is whether or not their Cult of Barabbas believes it can survive a thermonuclear war between China and USA.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 08, 2019 9:00 AM  

About the ever present Nazis that haunt the dreams of the disturbed, today in response to a good set of muslims in China the Trump admin, at least according to zerohedge is weighing sanctions against tech companies from China that are supposedly involved in rounding up bad thinkers on the Chinese plantation.

I vote to sanction the NBA and GULAG. Trump is gonna have a field day with those overpaid scum of the NBA.

Blogger Brett baker October 08, 2019 9:03 AM  

So, Xi Jinping is going to get removed?

Blogger andrisf October 08, 2019 9:03 AM  

Yeah, you can't wear masks in any (at least in most) EU countries, nobody says its dictatorship (even tho it is) and nobody is burning down cities.
Double standarts is norm for our days - if we (USA_EU) do it its good, its for safety, if Russia-China does it, well it is dictatorship and let us hope for swift revolution and a lot of blood in streets...

Blogger Alexander October 08, 2019 9:03 AM  

It was one thing in 1997 to make a deal that allowed the English to save face, it is quite another to earnestly believe China would tolerate a city of ethnic Chinese behaving as cultural aliens, forever

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother October 08, 2019 9:05 AM  

The mainland perspective on HK doesn't surprise me. They really want to be identical to Singapore, independent of China completely

Blogger Lazarus October 08, 2019 9:12 AM  

So, what was the original cause for mass unrest in Hong Kong?

It was precipitated by the Hong Kong government proposing an amendment to the existing Fugitive Offenders Ordinance.

The necessity of the amendment became obvious when a young man took his pregnant girlfriend from Hong Kong to Taiwan, murdered her, and buried her dismembered remains there, and then came back knowing that he couldn’t be extradited to Taiwan to face justice.
Safe haven for fugitives

I asked a friend, a longtime resident of Hong Kong and a senior adviser to the governments in the territory before and after its handover from British to Chinese sovereignty, for an explanation of the proposed amendment. He said, “There are currently hundreds of known fugitives using Hong Kong as a safe haven because Hong Kong only has agreements with certain countries but [they] have so far not included Macau, Taiwan and mainland China.


Alt View of HK

Blogger Nikolai Collushnikov October 08, 2019 9:21 AM  

Honk Kong hates the Main Land, the Main Land hates Hong Kong.
Honk Kong isn't part of China now, even if it ever really was.

Blogger Nate October 08, 2019 9:36 AM  

China will be the ones pushing for the next big war because China is on the brink of an epic collapse and it thinks a big war will save it.

it won't of course. China is dead.

Blogger Borsabil October 08, 2019 9:38 AM  

Unless the HK government is at risk of collapse, which is possible but not likely, I'd expect the CCP not to intervene in the expectation the protesters will eventually lose moral legitimacy and popular support. The issue isn't lack of nationalism, Hongkongers are Han, it's that the young can only see a shitty future under communist rule in a city that's already far too expensive and overrun by foreigners.

Blogger Stilicho October 08, 2019 9:43 AM  

China was really desperate to obtain and now to hold on to Hong Kong if it doesn't need it.

China's territorial greed is consistent with its unofficial policy that all Chinese everywhere are subjects of chicom govt. No Han left unshackled. Commies gonna commie and it burns their shriveled little souls to think there is someone, somewhere they cannot control.

Hong Kong will lose unless the chicoms fall into the trap of fighting a 4G war instead of using the effective brutal suppression they are inclined to employ. No one gives a tinker's damn about Tianamen square anymore.

Blogger Halibetlector October 08, 2019 9:49 AM  

My fear is that the people who want the next big war are actively pushing in this direction.

It does make me wonder how much of the Hong Kong situation is grass-roots and how much was manufactured through social media, like the Arab Spring was.

Blogger FUBARwest October 08, 2019 9:55 AM  

"China will be the ones pushing for the next big war because China is on the brink of an epic collapse and it thinks a big war will save it.

it won't of course. China is dead."

You've been very accurate regarding China the past few months. Especially in light of the recent bank run. What have you been reading to be up to date regarding China?

Blogger phil g October 08, 2019 10:06 AM  

Hong Kong is not our problem. They will be part of China in the long run and there's nothing Hong Kong or anyone else can do about it. I also don't want a flood of Hong Kong immigrants to the US or West. They are Chinese and should stay in their ethnic and cultural region.

Blogger VD October 08, 2019 10:06 AM  

Xi Jinping is going to get removed?

Seriously? THAT is what you took from this?

You need to think very hard before you comment here again. This may not be an appropriate forum for your reading level.

it won't of course. China is dead.

Not even close. China's globalized economy may be dead, but even if the empire divides again, it will survive. China is not looking for war, because China doesn't need war to obtain its objectives. It just needs to be strong enough to prevent the US military from interfering with them.

Blogger Longtime Lurker October 08, 2019 10:18 AM  

Then let the ungrateful Hong Kongers go their own way and be done with them.

Win. Win. (Except in the cases of Tibet and Xinjiang.)

Blogger Karen took the Kids October 08, 2019 10:32 AM  

Fascinating. I'll ignore mainstream media when it comes to domestic issues but happily form my uneducated opinions on Hong Kong from them without so much as a blink. I need to be better at this. One of the many reasons this blog is so important.

Blogger Crush Limbraw October 08, 2019 10:34 AM  

The DaLimbraw Library has accumulated a fair section on Hong Kong in the last few months, written by some knowledgeable folks which pretty much confirms what this mainlander writes - https://crushlimbraw.blogspot.com/search?q=Hong+kong&updated-max=2019-08-19T20:20:00-07:00&max-results=20&by-date=true&m=0 - arranged by date - last first - the first half dozen are right on point.
This is how I learn. I have cme to learn from Vox - NEVER believe the official narrative or DaFakeStreamMedia - so my propaganda detector was up and running
This Hong Kong caper is a US/UK etc. operation - just from the fact that DaNeoCons are for it!

Blogger Daniel October 08, 2019 10:35 AM  

Watch what Lebron says today. That may tell you everything you need to know, at least as it regards corporate interests. I anticipate kowtowing, with multiple billions at stake.

Blogger Nate October 08, 2019 10:53 AM  

"Not even close. China's globalized economy may be dead, but even if the empire divides again, it will survive. China is not looking for war, because China doesn't need war to obtain its objectives. It just needs to be strong enough to prevent the US military from interfering with them."

China has existed in some form or another forever... so yes... obviously china is not dead. I mean this particular form of china.. is dead. China will eat itself... and then get's crap back together again... just as it always has.

This government however is a zombie. the interesting question is who falls first... china or the US? and does the falling of the one prop up the other? My money is on china collapsing first and that providing the US with one last chance to save itself.

Blogger ZhukovG October 08, 2019 11:06 AM  

I suppose China could provoke a war with India. While both are nuclear powers neither are likely to use them.

If China can make India into a "bad investment" in comparison to itself, it might be perceived by Xi's government as a way to preserve itself.

By fighting India they reduce the risk of direct United States involvement.

Blogger Gracie October 08, 2019 11:14 AM  

Yeah, this is basically the same perspective I got from the 30 yo who manages our pizzeria. He's an American who speaks Mandarin and lived in China for awhile. He thinks there will be a crackdown eventually.

Blogger John Best. October 08, 2019 11:15 AM  

I listening to a 'Chinese expert' on the Mother of all talks shows with George Galloway, the expert said the Hong Kongers don't consider themselves Chinese, they see themselves as a different people. This is confusing to the Chinese who don't understand it, as the Hong Kongers are ethnically Chinese.

Blogger Arthur Isaac October 08, 2019 11:20 AM  

Chicom is God's counterbalance to Babylon. Persia 2.0. I don't have to like them to see them perform their divine function. Nor do I have to hate them. I can be glad there is a counterbalance and fear God for allowing these terrible potentials to accumulate within my lifetime.

Blogger Doktor Jeep October 08, 2019 11:21 AM  

We look put for governments and forget that people are just as bad.

Blogger peacefulposter October 08, 2019 11:27 AM  

My Chinese colleagues, who are also from the mainland, confirm this mailvox.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd October 08, 2019 11:34 AM  

Toby Temple wrote:I always had my reservations in siding with the HK protesters, ...

Why would we assume that there are any good guys in that story? Just the fact that they are getting intense media coverage when the Yellow Vests in France are not speaks volumes.

More generally, why would we side with anyone, anywhere? Pray that God's will be done, and that sinners accept salvation. That's as much interference as we can justify in the affairs of others.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd October 08, 2019 11:38 AM  

John Best. wrote:his is confusing to the Chinese who don't understand it, as the Hong Kongers are ethnically Chinese.

Chinese is a race, not a state of mind.

Blogger TheGhostlyOne October 08, 2019 12:00 PM  

Speaking of war with China and Russia, look at this insanity. It’s beyond 1913 levels of delusion.

“Marine Corps Lt. Gen. Loretta Reynolds, deputy commandant of Information, noted how a variety of perspectives, languages and cultures all feed the intelligence understanding of adversaries and of the information environment, an aspect that near-peer competitors such as China and Russia do not hold.”

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2019/09/30/diversity-of-races-religions-backgrounds-and-genders-essential-to-warfighting-in-the-information-age-3-star-says/?utm_campaign=Socialflow+MAR&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com

I know Vox has noted the strong possibility of coming U.S. naval defeat. Talk about a “voice in the wilderness.” I don’t dare discuss this with my naval buddies. They will deny it viscerally.

Blogger pyrrhus October 08, 2019 12:00 PM  

"This government however is a zombie. the interesting question is who falls first... china or the US? and does the falling of the one prop up the other? My money is on china collapsing first and that providing the US with one last chance to save itself."

US can only save itself by conclusively stopping the "wretched refuse" streaming over its borders...China only needs to survive, with or without HK as a financial center...The odds favor China.

Blogger Mocheirge October 08, 2019 12:02 PM  

A guy who gets triggered by Pooh bear isn't going to establish a new Middle Kingdom golden age. I agree with Nate; this particular incarnation of China isn't going to last long.

Blogger tuberman October 08, 2019 12:05 PM  

OC

"Just the fact that they are getting intense media coverage when the Yellow Vests in France are not speaks volumes."

Pretty much my take, you've summarized a good viewpoint.

Blogger VD October 08, 2019 12:05 PM  

the fact that they are getting intense media coverage when the Yellow Vests in France are not speaks volumes.

Precisely. This is just another so-called "Color Revolution" sponsored by the usual suspects. It will be one of the failed ones.

Blogger dc.sunsets October 08, 2019 12:08 PM  

It's all back to Lenin's famous, "who/whom."

Who (in the West) benefited (beyond imagination) from financialization*? Who benefited from it in China?

I have vague answers to the former, but less than no idea for the latter. As Orwell's "Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism" notes, there has been and always will be a High, a Middle and a Low...in every human society of every size.

Who are the High in China? And who are the Middle? (The Low are irrelevant at all times.) One thing I know for certain: Assuming I know nothing about China (and Hong Kong) puts me miles above the understanding of those who think they know, based on what the main-stream or alternative "news" deems fit to tell them.
Uninformed and misinformed are the only two options today.

[* the term Financialization is used to mean metaphorical, ongoing and gang-sodomy-rape by means of con-artistry and threat, akin to extorting "consent" to such things in a prison.]

Blogger Leoric October 08, 2019 12:13 PM  

Ever since I started to read VD I have changed significantly on the question of freedom and etc. While I don't fault people their freedom I have lost any sympathy for minorities that try to break away from the parent civilization.

These thugs on the streets are tools and the way China responds to attacks in it's civilization is commendable. As soon as NBA even opened it's mouth China pulls funding. Then companies like blizzard get the message and as soon as a HK player calls for freedom for HK they squelch that. Imagine if the right behaved this way towards liberals? We would be much better off today.

Blogger Brett baker October 08, 2019 12:16 PM  

Sorry, SDL. I was responding to the end of the email about Trump and Xi being Kennedy and Khrushchev. We know the Deep State wants to get rid of Trump, so I was making a snarky comment about some Chinese getting rid of Xi like some Russians wanted rid of Khrushchev. My mistake.

Blogger Balam October 08, 2019 12:19 PM  

Alexander wrote:It was one thing in 1997 to make a deal that allowed the English to save face, it is quite another to earnestly believe China would tolerate a city of ethnic Chinese behaving as cultural aliens, forever

Your comment about cultural aliens reminds me of the diaspora jews and that book Vox mentioned which said that the primary conflict the jews bring on themselves is the result of refusing to assimilate into any culture, thus necessitating being master or slave in every relationship. Considering the failure of the jews to move into China I wonder if the rise and current fall of HK is closely linked to the jewish failure to move into China.

As cultural aliens HK would have to be slave or master over China and while in the west the aliens are master China's looking a lot more nationalistic in this regard.

Blogger dc.sunsets October 08, 2019 12:21 PM  

As for US-China or US-Russia, it's self-evident that the USA as a politico-social-economic-military entity is in a steep, unrecoverable dive. The debt bomb, the pension crisis, looming bankruptcy due to the Medical-Insurance-Cartel, the Clown Circus that is the military's upper echelon, the open civil war in Washington DC, etc., etc., etc....

Humpty Dumpty has already fallen, and we see the shards of its shattering impact spread in every direction. All China and others have to do is wait patiently for the next phase of the cycle. The unified, globe-spanning Nation-State that emerged from Lincoln's War of Consolidation was temporary.

In point of fact, I think the myriad flashpoints of conflict among Americans (paper, blood, whatever) are fomented purposely to de-fang the minority who might otherwise want to crucify those doing the fomenting. In the end, the various nations of American will divorce, rendering North America (as a whole) less relevant to the world at large. If humanity is lucky, divorcing nations will be a worldwide trend.

Blogger LZ October 08, 2019 12:32 PM  

I have lots of puts on HSBC. Hong Kong ETF Below 2008 Trendline

Blogger Crew October 08, 2019 12:36 PM  

@39: This book seems to have interesting stuff on their relationship to the peoples they live among:

http://www.unz.com/book/douglas_reed__the-controversy-of-zion/

Blogger Crew October 08, 2019 12:38 PM  

I believe that Trump is too smart to get sucked into any sort of war with Russia or China, but I have been wrong many times in the past.

Blogger Fuzzums Wuzzums October 08, 2019 12:56 PM  

Stefan Molyneux had a trailer for his Hong Kong documentary where at some point he shows some graffiti saying "Chinazi". My almonds started percolating so I had to google "hong kong jews" and this is the 3rd search result I found: https://www.timesofisrael.com/why-most-jews-in-hong-kong-are-not-involved-with-the-protests/

What I find absolutely hilarious is that we reached the point where even Israel itself assumes that everyone else assumes it was them.


Blogger doctrev October 08, 2019 1:02 PM  

dc.sunsets wrote:
In point of fact, I think the myriad flashpoints of conflict among Americans (paper, blood, whatever) are fomented purposely to de-fang the minority who might otherwise want to crucify those doing the fomenting.


This is definitely the smartest insight here. When you look a history of successful multinational empires, from Rome to Britain, you see this process playing out. The British in particular were masters of playing on cultural dynamics and stereotypes to the point where they barely had to do anything.

Where we part company is the idea that the constituent nations will all divorce along broad ethnic lines. Large chunks of the minority coalition will decide to be neutral because they don't have common interests- Chileans and Mexicans share different goals in America, while Asians and blacks are in competition for jobs and elite university postings. I have no idea what the future American coalitions will finally look like, beyond a majority coalition holding most white Americans versus a minority ethnic supremacist coalition. Entire racial blocs could be decided on "random" events, and President Trump knows he has been wildly successful in consolidating the white vote while making inroads with minorities.

Blogger Damelon Brinn October 08, 2019 1:14 PM  

Watch what Lebron says today.

Yeah, it's hilarious to watch the NBA, which pulled the All-Star Game from North Carolina over men in girls' bathrooms, kowtowing to China over a tweet. Makes you think they're getting more money from China than even shows on the surface.

Blogger Jason October 08, 2019 1:27 PM  

It is difficult for Westerners, especially modern Westerners, to conceive of a country/culture that thinks in terms of decades and centuries, rather than sound bytes and social media outrage alerts.

China has been shattered and put back together over and over and over. America is less than 300 years old. We have had one civil war. China goes back 5000 years. They have had over a dozen. Tens of millions die from famine? So what? There are a billion Chinese left.

I have a friend who studies ancient Chinese, lived in China for over 6 months. I asked his take on China. The two most interesting aspects he stated were:

1. Family is everything. All thought is viewed through the lens of family.
2. The whole country is tipped from the mountains in the west to the ocean in the east. The danger of flooding never ends. Any village or town who didn't do their job controlling flood season basically killed the villages and towns downhill from them, so the incentive to unite everyone in never ending efforts to prevent flood famines always pushed the Chinese to a single large government making sure everyone was doing their damn job.

The current Communist government may fade away or transform, but China isn't going anywhere. They play the long game in a way we have trouble even imagining.

Blogger roundeye October 08, 2019 1:40 PM  

HKers are generally Cantonese speakers and Hakka, both of whom consider themselves different ethnically (think English/Welsh/Scottish in the UK). Some Cantonese speakers make up most of the foreign Han diaspora which is a market dominant minority in many SE Asian countries and widely despised.

Blogger Vlad Z. October 08, 2019 2:05 PM  

It's interesting that in the USA discussions of ethnic or geographical groups are almost always about those who are here, but don't belong.

Whereas in this case it is about those who the majority say do belong, but themselves do not want to be incorporated.

I guess there is an analogy with the South and the Civil War, but these days there is nothing that the USA has that most of us want to keep against their will. Guam? Gitmo? Puerto Rico? Saipan? Hawaii? I'd favor independence for all of them. Alaska might be a little harder, but even there.

Blogger El Fin October 08, 2019 2:06 PM  

A good portion of hong kongers are shanghai refugees from the 1940’s when Mao became the new emperor. Shanghai has been westernized since 1842 so these hong kongers haven’t identified with Chinese peasantry in 178 years.

They’re like a hybrid.

They might not win anything from the protests but at least they won’t go to their graves with the regret of not fighting for their nation. We should watch closely to see how it unfolds because Hong Kong and America are in similar situations.

Former British colonies with British common law now being subverted by a leviathan that doesn’t value self-determination.



Blogger Lance E October 08, 2019 2:45 PM  

Thanks for posting. The HK narrative was total crap from the outset, and Spandrell explained a lot of it in a long post about HK vs. Mainland culture. Good to see it confirmed here.

This is just another color revolution, and the fools in Conservatism Inc. have been totally falling for it. It's Iraq and Libya and Syria all over again, but on a much larger scale and with much higher stakes. And when you're prone to losing every match, as the U.S. generally is these days, raising the stakes is absolutely retarded.

The day Molyneux decided to pimp this as a "Fight for Freedom" was the day I gave up on him. Even if these rioters, who are armed with grenade launchers and indiscriminately attacking both police and bystanders, genuinely do want democracy, why is that a good thing and how is it in any way synonymous with freedom?

Blogger papabear October 08, 2019 2:53 PM  

Is it a color revolution with some sponsorship from the US? Maybe. But are there Hong Kong people who believe regardless that the anti-extradition bill is wrong and that it should be withdrawn? Definitely. Do they want independence from China? Only a negligible minority actually says that. Most just want an accountable HK government and police force, and for China to live up to the handover agreement. After 2047 the ChiComs can do what they want, if anything.

Blogger tuberman October 08, 2019 3:50 PM  

51. Lance E

Even though I agree with most of what you say on the HK conflict. You're over the top on Stefan. I disagree with specific areas that Stefan comes out with, but I think Stefan has good character, and good intentions. I do not think he is "Pimping" anything with intent. I believe I would personally like Stefan, setting specific issues aside.

Do you decide someone is totally comped over single issues, or even a couple of disagreements?

Blogger Theproductofafineeduction October 08, 2019 4:15 PM  

@51

Even if these rioters, who are armed with grenade launchers and indiscriminately attacking both police and bystanders,

Slow down there, I'm seeing individuals claiming that the grenade launcher is airsoft replica and that the video in question is staged. I watched the video from China Daily I can't tell if it was actually discharged or not but it also doesn't really matter at this point.

genuinely do want democracy, why is that a good thing and how is it in any way synonymous with freedom?

They really want autonomy from the mainland democracy is just the ostensible reason for the riot. But whatever the stated reason it doesn't matter cause they aren't going to get it.

Blogger Lance E October 08, 2019 4:21 PM  

papabear wrote:Is it a color revolution with some sponsorship from the US? Maybe.

Not maybe. Definitely. NED/NDI is funding it; Occupy Central and Freedom House are helping organize it; Jimmy Lai has all kinds of U.S. connections; Fortune and Foreign Policy Magazines promoted Joshua Wong; there's the highly suspicious Changsha Funeng, and official support from Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Other groups involved include Reporters Without Borders, Progressive Lawyers Group, the Lawrence Goldfarb Judicial Reform Foundation, and a slew of other NGOs I'd never even heard of before.

This flaming garbage has the U.S. State Department's fingerprints all over it. Oh, and the social media tycoons are frantically deleting any accounts highlighting the inauthenticity of the movement.

But are there Hong Kong people who believe regardless that the anti-extradition bill is wrong and that it should be withdrawn? Definitely. Do they want independence from China? Only a negligible minority actually says that. Most just want an accountable HK government and police force, and for China to live up to the handover agreement. After 2047 the ChiComs can do what they want, if anything.

The extradition bill, and all of these other assorted grievances, are complete non-issues. You should recognize these laundry lists of demands by now, it's the same tactic that U.S. "protest" groups like Antifa and BLM use to maintain a veneer of legitimacy. What they are actually agitating for is universal suffrage, and China doesn't have to "live up" to that because it violates the agreement that Hong Kong actually had with China.

Blogger papabear October 08, 2019 4:27 PM  

@55 The extradition bill, and all of these other assorted grievances, are complete non-issues.

Do you live there?

Blogger papabear October 08, 2019 4:35 PM  

@55 As for universal suffrage, see HK Basic Law Article 45.

Blogger Lance E October 08, 2019 4:37 PM  

tuberman wrote:Even though I agree with most of what you say on the HK conflict. You're over the top on Stefan. [...] Do you decide someone is totally comped over single issues, or even a couple of disagreements?

It depends on how big the issue is, but in general, no, I don't change my opinion of someone on a dime. My shift on Molyneux has been over a nearly two-year period; seeing him pour gasoline on the HK fire was really just the last straw for me.

That said, I know he is friendly with Vox, and liked by many people here, so I don't think it's appropriate to go off on a longer rant about him. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all, but what's done is done, and his Orwellian-titled HK documentary video just really stood out to me as facepalm-worthy.

The entire legacy media is united around the narrative of the HK rioters and assorted agitators being plucky heroes against an evil tyrannical foreign government that just happens to be a major rival; even using the same language ("pro-democracy protesters") to describe it everywhere. Such inauthentic media narratives should be immediately red-flagged by everyone on our side. As Vox often says, the Official Story is the one narrative that you can be sure isn't true.

Blogger Unknownsailor October 08, 2019 5:19 PM  

El Fin wrote:A good portion of hong kongers are shanghai refugees from the 1940’s when Mao became the new emperor. Shanghai has been westernized since 1842 so these hong kongers haven’t identified with Chinese peasantry in 178 years.

They’re like a hybrid.

They might not win anything from the protests but at least they won’t go to their graves with the regret of not fighting for their nation. We should watch closely to see how it unfolds because Hong Kong and America are in similar situations.

Former British colonies with British common law now being subverted by a leviathan that doesn’t value self-determination.



This is my take as well. They lived under western rule for a long time, and want to keep doing so.

100 years under British rule is two generations at least.

I have been there twice, once in 1996 and once in 1999.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd October 08, 2019 5:25 PM  

Unknownsailor wrote:100 years under British rule is two generations at least.

Might be closer to five generations. Most Han marry and get to procreation at a reasonable age.

Blogger papabear October 08, 2019 5:43 PM  

@59 HKers may generally feel superior to Mainlanders, even to their relatives across the border in Guangdong, but they are not completely without reason for thinking so -- despite having some of the characteristic bad habits of urban dwellers in non-Western countries and Japan, they are still better behaved than Mainlanders.

Ever since Tiananmen the CCP has been busy raising subsequent generations as nationalist NPCs who have absorbed the mindset that all Chinese belong to them, so this outcome should have been expected.

Blogger papabear October 08, 2019 6:11 PM  

@61 That should be 'with the exception of Japan' not Japan.

If the US can't defend Taiwan, maybe Taiwan (along with Japan) should consider getting their own nukes.

Blogger Dan in Georgia October 08, 2019 6:47 PM  

Just wait till China gets the slave economy going in Africa. Better get your Nikes now before they start making them in the Dark Continent.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 08, 2019 7:19 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 08, 2019 7:34 PM  

@47

"It is difficult for Westerners, especially modern Westerners, to conceive of a country/culture that thinks in terms of decades and centuries, rather than sound bytes and social media outrage alerts."

Oh, we understand it perfectly.

Political correctness and outrage mobs are precisely the same tools as what the ChiComs used in the cultural revolution. SJW's are nothing less than the student faction of the Red Guards before they received weapons.

SJW behavior is point-and-shriek followed by swarming and the ritual apology (so aptly described as a "struggle session) progression for any violation of the left's narrative is DIRECTLY OUT OF THE MAOIST PLAYBOOK.

Where did they learn it from?

Maoist professors in the colleges and universities.

To say that China doesn't do sound bites and social media alert (i.e. what has been called "cancel culture") was developed and perfected during the cultural revolution.

SJW Cancel Culture and "deplatforming" comes directly from this:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=chinese+dunce+cap+cultural+revolution

Notice all the writing on those dunce caps that are oftentimes as tall as the person wearing them, sometimes even taller?

And it's still alive in China today: https://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/06/26/world/26sino-harbin/26sino-harbin-articleLarge.jpg

Note that this sort of thing is done both before AND after n years in a re-education camp.

The Chinese understand deplatforming/sound-bite/social-media-alert culture. Because they perfected it before there computer networks even existed, let alone computers, let alone twit-ter.

Blogger Toris October 08, 2019 8:26 PM  

Though suppressed in msm, a lot of what you are seeing in HK stems from an unreported Triad war, largely as a result of one factions theft of certain nanotech from Page Industries subsidiary VersaLife - for which rival Triad gang 'Luminous Path' are being framed. People need to look up Tracer Tong's reports regarding UN globalists and their "universal constructor".

Blogger rcocean October 08, 2019 8:33 PM  

China as an imperialist power never made any sense to me. China was the big dog in Asia for a long time, and could've taken over all of the little countries on its periphery if it had wanted to. It didn't because, the Chinese Emperors thought the they had more enough to rule. People forget FDR offered Indo-china to China in 1945, and they turned it down. Its more likely, China will continue to export people and money and take over that way. 50 million Chinese in Australia/Canada/USA should be sufficient.

Blogger rcocean October 08, 2019 8:37 PM  

I've met plenty of HK'ers. They have the same feelings toward Mainland China that the Beverly Hills/Manhattan elite feel toward "flyover country" - fear and loathing.

Blogger Monotonous Languor October 08, 2019 8:51 PM  

Anything that undermines mainland China's unacknowledged, ongoing cyber and economic warfare against the rest of the world, can only be a good thing.

Regardless of the various mixed motives of HK protesters, the general consensus is that they do not ever want to become subsumed into the totalitarian pseudo-benevolence of the CCP. And in the final analysis, who can blame them?

Blogger Remo - Vile Faceless Minion #99 October 08, 2019 9:16 PM  

The mainlanders I work with concur with this with the addition that they know that many of the protestors are being paid to protest. One of them showed me a banned broadcast from an RT news piece showing a bunch of demonstrators sporting gas masks and said "Poor students are buying those?". He's not wrong - Some of the equipment on the protestor side is rather expensive and I doubt that people who cannot afford housing would be able to drop 3k US on masks and milspec equipment.

Blogger RedJack October 08, 2019 9:24 PM  

Know a few from HK, a many more from mainland.

Not my circus. A friend of mine who is from mainland China views Hong Kong like I view New York. A place that thinks it is more important than they are.

Blogger RedJack October 08, 2019 9:27 PM  

@70. Some of those masks are pretty cheap. Mine cost $40 (for work), and the filters a about the same. Never shopped for body armor though.

Blogger MendoScot October 08, 2019 10:25 PM  

Britain pulled a useless island from China.
The Great Houses made it a centre of drug based wealth.
The Tongs used it as their base against the Manchu.
Using the British drug trade to their benefit.
Which they continued, after it's prohibition.

This conflict started at the end of the 19th century and is an internal one.

Blogger Remo - Vile Faceless Minion #99 October 08, 2019 10:41 PM  

@74 You may very well be correct nevertheless the feeling on the ground here in Sichuan is that they are being subsidized. I haven't gone gas mask shopping so I fully admit ignorance as to the possible deals available. Unfortunately the "roll on them with tanks" opinion is actually pretty popular and this perception of foreign funding isn't helping things.

Blogger pdwalker October 09, 2019 12:02 AM  

The current troubles in Hong Kong are a combination of many things all coming to a head.

One of the main things you need to understand about the majority of people in Hong Kong is that they are almost all direct escapees from Communist China, or descendants of. Up until the mid 70's, the HK government had a "touch base" policy - anyone escaping the mainland who made to government house on the island would automatically get a permanent ID card. This is a very different, self selected, group of Chinese.

Culturally, HK is different from the mainland. For a long time, the mainlanders were seen as the unsophisticated country cousins - which they were. However, the mainlanders have come a very long way in the last 30 years and in the first tier cities, the people of Hong Kong do not compare as well. "Why are HK people so backwards" is a common question from my mainland acquaintences.

The population of HK at around the hand over was about 6.6M. Since the handover, there have been over 1M mainlanders added to the population. In some areas of the city, you no longer hear Cantonese spoken on the street, but Mandarin.

This has a secondary impact - not only do you get the friction of two, not fully compatible, cultures rubbing shoulder to shoulder, but you now have the problem of these recent immigrants buying up property and raising the property prices to stratospheric levels. If you're a young university graduate, then you will almost certainly never be able afford your own apartment. Owning a home is an essential prerequisite to getting married and having a family - and now most young couples are forever locked out of this market, unless they have wealthy parents who can afford to help the young couple get into the market? This is increasing the dissatisfaction among the young and among the HK people themselves.

The proposed extradition law was a very bad piece of legislation, and almost universally feared by the HK citizens. Their fear is that the mainland government could easily manufacture crimes and then haul in anyone they wanted from Hong Kong. A fear that is perfectly rational for anyone familiar with the mainland legal system.

The protests have very, very popular support. The young and old are out protesting. Civil servants, lawyers, firemen - whole segments of the working population have had their own (peaceful) protests. This has never happened before in the history of Hong Kong.

Sure, one can claim that the protests are stirred up by outside interests - but at most they are only adding a little support to what is already a widely popular protest. Imagine 2M people going out to protest from a population of 7.7M - and over 1M of those people are mainland immigrants who I guarantee are not going to support the protestors. That's an incredible percentage.

So now let's add some fuel to the fire. The government's handling of the problem is either an example of the worst incompetence conceivable, or the government is deliberately trying to egg the protestors on. I find the incompetence argument uncompelling which leaves only the latter - in my opinion.

The violence has been steadily escalating - in a large part due to the police using excessive violence from the very beginning.

But that's not all.... (continued)

Blogger pdwalker October 09, 2019 12:02 AM  

There are numerous instances of:

- police caught changing into the clothes of protestors and actively adding to the violence (instigators)

- police being caught acting as protestors throwing molotov cocktails.

- police sexually assaulting women protestors

- police beating helpless and/or unconscious protestors

- police supporting the pro beijing triads when they attack people (protestors or not)

- police not charging people with crimes when those people inflict violence on the protestors - to many examples to list.

- protestors being taken into police custody and then somehow ending up dead. (the average historical murder/suicide rate in HK is 20-30 per year. Since the troubles started there have been over 60 bodies turn up under completely *cough* unsuspicious *cough* circumstances.

These things have only served to make people angry and has created a huge "us vs them" divide between the police and the population.

Where is it going to go from here? I don't know. I strongly suspect that the mainland government has a large number of mainlanders integrated into the HK police force and that the violence is going to increase - by design.

I suspect that this will mean the end of the 1 country 2 systems decades early.

The Chinese are not this stupid, so I have to think that this is all by design.

This will not end well.

These are only the opinions and observation of someone who's lived and worked in HK/China for almost three decades.

Blogger Crew October 09, 2019 12:02 AM  

Even Tucker Carlson is cucking on this and claiming that China is going to "destroy Hong Kong".

I guess that is why he still has a job as a talking head.

Blogger Crew October 09, 2019 12:04 AM  

Heh. Tucker has uttered the "fascist" word. "Chinazi" can't be long in exiting his mouth.

Blogger cyrus83 October 09, 2019 12:05 AM  

Older people who live in Hong Kong had to know this day was coming the day their former imperial overlords agreed to transfer the territory to a different empire. The only thing that was ever really in question was how long it would be until China really made a move to take control. Sure, the treaty said they'd wait 50 years, but the UK can't even seem to tell the Euroweenies to sod off, they're in no position to protest, and I think China knows nobody except the neo-cons really want to fight them over it.

The issue is Hong Kong historically being Chinese territory while much of the actual population moved in after the British made a colony of the place. I can readily buy that the people of Hong Kong are distinct from the people on the mainland, but the problem isn't much different from any other empire in history that is ruling people distinct from the rulers.

China could quite easily turn the tables on a lot of countries in the West, since the same situation exists here, especially in the US, by supporting separatist movements in western countries, whether of migrants or of historic minorities (see Catalans).

China is likely therefore to crush its rebellious province to teach it a lesson much like empires have historically treated rebels. The only way that doesn't happen is if the Chinese government suddenly weakens or loses its resolve. China has problems, but it doesn't seem to be at the stage where the central government is in terminal decay.

Blogger papabear October 09, 2019 12:12 AM  

@78 @79

Given the way she worded her previous announcement concerning the withdrawal of the bill (which was not satisfactory to legal experts), if the CCP is looking for an excuse to crackdown by using provocateurs, I would wish that the protestors would tone things done a bit and wait for Carrie Lam's second announcement. Maybe that will be unsatisfactory as well.

Unfortunately I agree that this is a battle that HKers cannot win in the long run, even if this seemingly decentralized movement were to somehow take this in a 4GW direction.

Blogger Crew October 09, 2019 12:35 AM  

I can readily buy that the people of Hong Kong are distinct from the people on the mainland,

They are not. They are mainly Southern Han. I know enough of them and they look like other Chinese, although some of them have some Caucasian admixture.

Blogger pdwalker October 09, 2019 1:10 AM  

@81 I suspect the mainland has decided to let the HK government sort it out with hidden Chinese support. We will only see troops if the situation really gets out of control.

@82 they did for a while early on in the protests. now? Too much violence from both sides has happened to be forgiven. The HK government would have to give too much, and lose too much face, to bring the protests to a halt.

Blogger pdwalker October 09, 2019 1:18 AM  

@83

The Cantonese are not "Southern Han". They are the Cantonese, and Hong Kong are culturally distinct from the mainland Cantonese because of their self selection. I can distinguish the two different groups by accent, dress and mannerisms pretty reliably.

A rough analogy: the country of Europe contains "white peoplese", the major group which is Scandinavian. (work with me, it's an analogy). However the Frenchese, while white and white looking, are a different group.

China itself has different groups, distinct in culture, language and looks that make up the nation, the Han being the preeminent group.

Blogger Paul M October 09, 2019 4:48 AM  

Hong Kong's wealth and influence came from its being an outpost of the mighty British navy and empire. China's best reply to HK is not soldiers, but its own free trade zones and ports.

Blogger VD October 09, 2019 7:52 AM  

You're either insane or extremely ignorant of the history of the region.

Dirk Manly, you're banned for repeatedly insulting other commenters. You are not permitted to comment here anymore.

Go pose and posture somewhere else.

Blogger HouellebecqGurl October 09, 2019 12:15 PM  

Douglas Reed is a 'must read' author, IMO.

I've only read a couple of his books, but so far they've all been very informative.
I hope to read them all in the next year.

Blogger HouellebecqGurl October 09, 2019 12:18 PM  

Every question pondered should start with the query, "Is it good for the Jews?"
It's what they do, so in order to understand their POV, you must learn to think as they do.

Blogger CarpeOro October 09, 2019 3:35 PM  

My perspective on all of this is yet another situation where it is none of my business. I have no interest in the "worldwide democratic revolution" as it is simply the "worldwide socialist revolution" re-branded. I don't live there, my family doesn't live there, I have no interest in any of my family dying for either side.

I've seen the arguments that "the HK people are fighting for...". Fine. May even wish them good luck. Or I may hear that they are the equivalent of NYC in the USA. Also fine. I. Don't. Care. Though when I see all of the Authorized media lining up behind HK my gut reaction is - sorry they are being manipulated. This is reinforced by hearing Soros has his fingers in the pot.

Funny, this can be applied to every where outside of my nation. At most, I will advocate that those who want "to make a difference" go do so. Over there. If they are over here, they should be invited forcibly to leave if they plan to do anything more than discuss what is happening there.

Blogger Gigantibear Billy October 10, 2019 12:55 PM  

As I was reading this, I thought “hmm.. why does Molyneux seem to support HK so much then if it’s a convoluted situation all around and probably caused by the West...” oh wait. Molyneux loves the West. Even if he can’t separate the good from the bad sometimes because he has his libertarian blinders on.

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