ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2019 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Monday, November 25, 2019

Mailvox: a nuanced take

Another perspective on Hong Kong in light of the electoral victory of the "pro-democracy" forces:
To say that the protests are not organic is not accurate. They are organic, it's just that they're being used and manipulated by US and UK forces for their own purposes. But Hong Kongers definitely have real grievances, some real and some suffering from a bit of over-active imagination. On the real side is the housing market. Regular people can't afford to buy a home anymore, and this is a bigger deal in Chinese society than it is in the West. The reason is two-fold: One, real estate is controlled by a handful of tycoons, and Two, Beijing has courted and collaborated with those tycoons. Everyone knows that part of the reason the prices have gone up is because of increased investment from wealthy mainlanders, with whom ordinary Hong Kongers can't compete.

On the imagined side, the Hong Kong protesters have a view of mainland China which might have come from Fox News, which is remarkable since they live right next to it, and many of them visit on a regular basis. But in talking to them, they talk about China the same way people in America who have never been there and only know what they see on the news talk about it. I don't quite know why this is. Perhaps because they're descended from people who fled during the Mao years and heard horror stories about those times. The unfortunate thing is that Beijing could help Hong Kong by intervening in the housing market the way they do in Shenzhen. But Beijing wouldn't do that, and Hong Kongers wouldn't accept it if they would. There is a general lack of trust and understanding between the two sides which hinders any solution to the problems.
This is actually very much in keeping with what I have heard from people living there. But while the votes for the "pro-democracy" forces and the protesters are certainly overlapping, they are not the same thing.

I am, of course, extremely skeptical of anything that purports to be "pro-democracy", as historically that tends to mean little more than "CIA-backed".

Labels: ,

41 Comments:

Blogger Jim November 25, 2019 7:22 PM  

I'm currently of the mind to accept that they are really "pro-democracy," simply because US IAs have proven to be run by corrupt incompetents in full need of a bulldozer appointment. I doubt their ability to pull anything like this off without China exposing it as a complete clown show inside of a week.

But maybe that's just what they want me to think.

Blogger 1100 November 25, 2019 7:24 PM  

The fate of the Uyghurs in communist China show the future of the people of Taiwan. But, they say, no we have elected representatives who want the 'right things', but they have NO power or way to defend themselves. ...

Blogger Johnny November 25, 2019 7:52 PM  

Democracy is the currently imagined alternative to Beijing, so I would imagine they are sincere. It serves an intimidate need and it is a good talking point. Plus young people are not usually stakeholders in a society, not yet, and so have an easy enthusiasm for alternative systems.

Blogger Nate November 25, 2019 7:56 PM  

Fuck China. We should be dropping crates of m4s and sams into Honk Kong. The fact that we aren't is how you know the guys in HK are actually good guys.

Blogger Joe Smith November 25, 2019 8:01 PM  

@Jim They may be run by corrupt incompetents, but those are just political appointments. The CIA has been incredibly successful at subverting and destroying any number of places, including America. Half the crap we have kicking around in our heads are lies put there in part by the CIA via our terrible, lying media.

Blogger Paradise Lost November 25, 2019 8:21 PM  

I must admit, that I would like to see the brakes put on Chinese advances. President Nixon was my cousin, I remember how primitive that country was 45 years ago. I don't really believe the Chinese have had an original idea since firecrackers. Everything they have and do is a result of stolen technology or that which was outright sold to them by crony capitalists.

Blogger Doktor Jeep November 25, 2019 8:45 PM  

Democracy these days usually means making it legal to rob you because you got outvoted and pride parades.

Blogger Brett baker November 25, 2019 8:51 PM  

+1

Blogger Johnny November 25, 2019 8:53 PM  

@2 The fate of the Uyghurs in communist China...

Considering how frequently Islam is a problem, I can't get real down on any government that attempts to get rid of it. Otherwise my sympathy with the Uyghurs as a race.

The Chinese have also had problems in the past with Christianity, but so far they are not going after it with the same enthusiasm.

Blogger Leoric November 25, 2019 8:55 PM  

I think China has this under control. Otherwise I think they have enough levers not to allow the vote. I think what China is doing is letting pro democracy people to come to power and then give them the ultimatum. Wtf are they going to do? China is the sovereign in this case and in case of any rebellion that puts them in the right internationally. Plus a tiny island stands zero chance of defending themselves militarily.

Blogger Jim November 25, 2019 9:15 PM  

@Joe Smith While true, that's all legacy work. Hong Kong would require recent operations to pull off. You just need to look at the amateurish Collusion play to see how that would likely turn out. MSS would need to be staffed entirely by inbred nepotismos for the CIA to have a chance.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd November 25, 2019 9:16 PM  

Nate wrote:Fuck China. We should be dropping crates of m4s and sams into Honk Kong. The fact that we aren't is how you know the guys in HK are actually good guys.

That ``give'em SAMs'' approach sure worked out for us in Asscanistan. Imagine how much worse it could have worked if the ragheads had 3-digit IQs.

Yes, I assume with you that anyone who gets that kind of clandestine support from DC is an enemy of the American nation and a tool of globohomo.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd November 25, 2019 9:19 PM  

Johnny wrote:Considering how frequently Islam is a problem, I can't get real down on any government that attempts to get rid of it. Otherwise my sympathy with the Uyghurs as a race.

It is always sweet and decorous to kill mohammedans. If that means the end of the Uyghurs, sucks to be them. God will know His own.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine November 25, 2019 9:22 PM  

"We should be dropping crates of m4s and sams into Honk Kong."

Why bother? Why stick our noses in? Sometimes the lazy choice is the wise and Biblical choice. Don't get between two dogs....

Blogger Lazarus November 25, 2019 9:45 PM  

Beijing has courted and collaborated with those tycoons. Everyone knows that part of the reason the prices have gone up is because of increased investment from wealthy mainlanders, with whom ordinary Hong Kongers can't compete.

And everybody knows the reason prices of housing in Vancouver went out of sight for the average Canadian was because of the investment from Hong Kongers.

Suck it.

My old man had a saying: "Them that has, gets."

Nothing new under the sun.

Blogger bodenlose Schweinerei November 25, 2019 9:55 PM  

Regular people can't afford to buy a home anymore

Hasn't this been true since well before the handover? That the HK real estate market is San Francisco on steroids and a much larger population?

and this is a bigger deal in Chinese society than it is in the West

I sincerely doubt that. "Independence" is damn near a holy concept here in the atomized West.

Blogger Jim the Curmudgeon November 25, 2019 9:59 PM  

Yeah, cry me a river. After seeing legions of people from Hong Kong move into Vancouver, tearing down traditional homes and 100 year old trees in order to build ugly rectangular monstrosities, I hardly have a lot of sympathy. Regular working families couldn't afford a home after the Hong Kong invasion in the 90s. They even have the nerve to criticize mainland Chinese for giving birth in Hong Kong hospitals when they do the same thing in Canada.

(They are also fond of parking their kids and wife in Canada, claiming that they are on welfare and obtaining benefits, while they simultaneously work overseas and don't declare the income. Canada, unlike the USA, does not require declarations of overseas income, but benefits fraud is benefits fraud).

Blogger Glaivester November 25, 2019 10:26 PM  

@15: And everybody knows the reason prices of housing in Vancouver went out of sight for the average Canadian was because of the investment from Hong Kongers.


@17: After seeing legions of people from Hong Kong move into Vancouver, tearing down traditional homes and 100 year old trees in order to build ugly rectangular monstrosities, I hardly have a lot of sympathy.

Yeah, but are those the Hong Kongers who are protesting, or the people who the protestors are protesting against? From the quoted writing, it sounds like the housing problems in Hong Kong do not originate with the Chinese, but with a subset of Hong Kongers and that the Chinese are allied with that subset.

Blogger The Observer November 25, 2019 10:55 PM  

China has just allowed Hong Kongers to buy property in neighbouring Chinese cities. It's not hard to see what they're doing -- let the "pro-democracy" riots drive away people and capital who want nothing to do with them, drain all the brains and capital, and let the place sink back into being the irrelevant marshy fishing village it was.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd November 25, 2019 11:11 PM  

@19, that will separate the real chinks from the real honk kongers. That might not work the way you are thinking.

Getting the go-along-to-get-along folks out of HK isn't going to help the CCP dominate the place. Having the faint-hearted move out may steel the hearts of the rest. One precondition for freedom is to be ungovernable by man. The other is to be governed by God. This move helps, a bit, with the first.

Blogger NO GOOGLES November 25, 2019 11:13 PM  

Got to be honest: I don't have a dog in this fight other than I am not a fan of the Chinese. So as long as HK isn't my problem and continues to be a problem for the Chinese - sounds good to me.
Also, if only these people knew what "democracy" they were protesting for.

Blogger D. November 25, 2019 11:42 PM  

When Brexit happens I might find "democracy" of interest.

Blogger Derrick Bonsell November 26, 2019 12:32 AM  

If there was a way for both sides to lose I'd be a supporter of it. As it is while I do not have any warm feelings for the PRC, I cannot support Hong Kong under any circumstance.

Blogger MEGAMUS Maximus November 26, 2019 3:26 AM  

The Chinese have every right to smash the color revolution brewing right ath their doorstep.

Prior to Duterte, the Philippines was going into Hell in a Hand basket thanks to the Color Revolution that happened here.

It serves no one to allow the subverters and wizards to gain a morale boost. Screw the antifa Hong Kongers.

Blogger WillBound November 26, 2019 4:46 AM  

Hong Kong never had democracy under the British until the last Governor of Hong Kong introduced it in order to shaft the Chinese when they took over.

Blogger JovianStorm November 26, 2019 4:51 AM  

XiJinping could crush it anytime he wanted by giving the Army the go-ahead. The reason he won't is because the real estate prices and financial system need to crash before they can be bought wholesale by mainland banks and party elite.

In 10 years Hong Kong will be the mainland Monaco and Macau will transform into Vegas for the proles.

Blogger Dire Badger November 26, 2019 7:09 AM  

I figure Hong Kong being sourced for Chinese Transplant Tourism is a pretty damned good reason for the Natives to Grasp at nearly any straw for not remaining under the mainland's thumb that they can find.

People terrified of being arrested and 'harvested' will do anything to avoid being parted out like an old car.

Blogger VFM #7634 November 26, 2019 7:36 AM  

I am, of course, extremely skeptical of anything that purports to be "pro-democracy", as historically that tends to mean little more than "CIA-backed".

(snort)

Blogger Iron Spartan November 26, 2019 9:12 AM  

Hong Kong has the manufacturing base to arm thousands in a few days with good enough firearms and ammuntion. It hasn't happened, so the question is why?

Blogger Oswald November 26, 2019 9:42 AM  

Well Vox if it is a CIA-backed moved, then I wonder what the end game is. Is the CIA pursuing its own strategy for defeating China or is this done in alignment with Trump's trade negotiations or is the CIA trying to hurt Trump not China by doing this?

Blogger Avalanche November 26, 2019 9:43 AM  

@23 "I cannot support Hong Kong under any circumstance."

Was out shopping with a friend. He approached a guy wearing a tee shirt with "Support Hong Kong freedom!" and, on the back, "NO China extradition!" My friend greeted him with "Nice shirt." The guy got a big smile and said "yeah, it's great!"

I said: "hmmmm, I s'pose that's okay, if you ignore that the guy the mainland Chinese want to extradite from Hong Kong murdered his wife and son on the mainland. It's not as simple then, is it?"

And left the guy looking shocked and concerned.

Blogger Salden November 26, 2019 10:31 AM  

Free Hong Kong is Dindu Lives Matter for Honkies.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd November 26, 2019 10:59 AM  

Avalanche wrote:And left the guy looking shocked and concerned.

Most conflicts don't have any good guys. We don't have to cheer on either side. That's awfully hard for most people to internalize.

Blogger KPKinSunnyPhiladelphia November 26, 2019 11:54 AM  

Leoric wrote:I think China has this under control. Otherwise I think they have enough levers not to allow the vote. I think what China is doing is letting pro democracy people to come to power and then give them the ultimatum. Wtf are they going to do? China is the sovereign in this case and in case of any rebellion that puts them in the right internationally.

Respectfully, I disagree. China has overplayed their hand here. They pretend to be all calm and serene and such great long-term thinkers, but Xi et al can be brutal and stupid.

You take control GRADUALLY in small steps. The Fugitive Offenders bill amendment was a heavy handed attempt to allow extradition of a much too widespread swath of potential "criminals" -- including crimes by Hong Kong citizens that occurred in Taiwan, and of course, Taiwanese citizens who happened to be in Hong Kong and who the Chinese might deign as "extraditable."

Moreover, prompted as it was by an capital murder crime, the amendment was seen by both Hong Kong and Taiwan as a back door to totally "legal" control of both populations.



Blogger VFM Bear November 26, 2019 12:02 PM  

"We don't have to cheer on either side. That's awfully hard for most people to internalize."

Most people are binary thinkers, so yeah.

Blogger michimartini November 26, 2019 12:32 PM  

At least a significant part of their negative experiences with so called Christianity was due to political meddling by Jesuits.

Blogger Derrick Bonsell November 26, 2019 4:17 PM  

@31 : Someone somewhere pointed out that rich people could easily evade extradition, but at most that's just the status quo. It's really not worth protests from average citizens, as they're screwed either way.

Blogger SciVo November 27, 2019 7:09 AM  

Nate wrote:Fuck China. We should be dropping crates of m4s and sams into Honk Kong. The fact that we aren't is how you know the guys in HK are actually good guys.

That would be solid reasoning, except for the small fact that only 2.94 million voted, and I cannot find exactly how many voted for pro-democracy candidates. I read that they won 390 of 452 seats, but of course that could be as little as half the voters, depending on how they were distributed. So maybe only 1.5 million.

But let's be generous and say that almost 3 million civilians in Hong Kong were willing to go pull a trigger on a ballot against the commies. That's a lot of people! But I have read that the PLA has 2.255 million active duty members and 1.2 million in reserve, not counting the estimated 1.1 to 1.5 million paramilitary police.

And their triggers are on guns.

And as VD has reminded us, the "one country, two systems" treaty with Britain ends in 2047, 50 years after the 1997 handover. So it is literally just a matter of time until they have no choice. So even if you don't agree with Mao's dictum about where power comes from, in a medium-term view, the protests are useless pageantry.

Blogger SullyRob November 28, 2019 9:26 PM  

More like mister "anti-communist" just hates democracy but knows he can't admit it.

Blogger SciVo November 29, 2019 6:40 AM  

You are wrong. VD is even more pro-democracy than I am. I think we should fix our numbers so that the Representatives in the House represent as few people as at the beginning, making a lot more of them. If I understand him correctly, VD would favor simple direct democracy.

Both are more feasible now with the very same technology that we are using at the present moment. There is no particular reason to limit the number of Representatives to the number of seats in the House, except to make them easier for Big Business to bribe.

Blogger Paul M December 01, 2019 4:50 AM  

On the imagined side, the Hong Kong protesters have a view of mainland China which might have come from Fox News, which is remarkable since they live right next to it, and many of them visit on a regular basis.

Maybe both Fox News and the Hong Kong protestors are absolutely right about daily life in China? Maybe China really is a vast labor camp ruled by a gang of old murderers? I mean … that would explain it, right?

Post a Comment

Rules of the blog
Please do not comment as "Anonymous". Comments by "Anonymous" will be spammed.

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts