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Saturday, December 07, 2019

A startling discovery

Martin van Creveld, the Israeli military historian and one of the very few genuine geniuses I have ever met, observes that, contrary to what he was taught, his people are not unique:
Great books, like great teachers, are those which make you reexamine your assumptions. By that standard, there can be little doubt that Yuri Slezkine’s The Jewish Century is a very great book. To help you understand why, let me start with a brief description of the way we in Israel have been taught Jewish history for so long.

Once upon a time—no one knows just when—there was a man called Abraham. Born in Ur, modern Mesopotamia, he was 75 years old when God revealed Himself to him and told him to move to Canaan, aka the Land of Israel, aka (much later) Palestine. Which country, He solemnly promised, would forever belong to him and his offspring. A relative handful of converts apart, it was from Abraham’s loins that all subsequent Jews were and are descended. Their history is like that of no other people; after many twists and turns, they were finally driven (almost all of them) from Canaan by the wicked Romans. Scattered in all directions, but held together by their unique religion, for close to two thousand years they lived without a homeland of their own. Now tolerated and exploited, now subject to pogroms and/or driven away from one country into another, always at the mercy of their non-Jewish neighbors, they somehow succeeded in retaining their identity like no other people on earth. Something not even Adolf Hitler, who set out to exterminate them and killed one third of their number, was able to change.

In comes Yuri Slezkine, a Russian born (1956- ) Jew who currently lives in the United States. The Jews, he explains in the first chapter of the book, are not unique at all. Instead they are one among a great many nations whom he groups together under the rubric, “Mercurian.” Including, to mention but a few, the Gypsies of Europe, the Persians and the Jain of India, the Copts of Egypt, the Fuga of southern Ethiopia, the Ibo of modern Nigeria, the Eta of traditional Japan, the Armenians and Greeks in the Ottoman Empire, the Nestorians in the Middle East, the Mormons in the U.S—an example Slezkine does not mention–and, above all, the overseas Chinese.

“Mercurian” peoples were and are distinguished from the rest—Apollonians, is what Slezkine calls them—in two principal ways. First, they regard themselves as a people chosen by God. Not just any God, but specifically their own tribal one. To retain that status they develop and maintain a different religion, a different language, a different culture, different mores—as, for example, in wearing turbans (the Sikh community of India) and eating only kosher food—as well as an often strictly enforced endogamy. Second, whether out of their own will or because of the restrictions under which they live, they tend to avoid production—first agriculture, later industry—in favor of other, specifically urban, professions. Including money changers, bankers, peddlers, traders, physicians, pharmacists (both in my family and that of my wife there were several of those), scribes, writers, musicians, actors, fortune tellers, matchmakers, agents, lawyers, and middlemen of every kind. The sort of people who, compared with their mostly rural neighbors, tended to be well ahead in terms of literacy and modernity in general.

Thus, contrary to what I and countless Israelis have been taught, we Jews are not unique.
Self-aggrandizing fictions notwithstanding, what Israelis are taught is still considerably more historically accurate than what Americans are taught about themselves. At least they are not taught that they are nothing more than the physical manifestation of an idea that anyone on the planet can adopt and thereby transform himself into a genuine American every bit as as baseball and apple pie as the direct genetic posterity of the Mayflower settlers and the soldiers of the Revolution.

Read the whole thing there.

Labels:

78 Comments:

Blogger Bobo #117 December 07, 2019 8:48 AM  

Like a kid finding out that not only is there no Santa, but it's really dad and he's been banging mom for years!

Blogger Gregory the Tall December 07, 2019 9:06 AM  

In short: There are many more grabblers than you thought, my dear Watson.

Blogger David Ray Milton December 07, 2019 9:21 AM  

Interesting about those populations avoiding production. I suppose that makes sense though as perpetual immigrants they would not be landowners and be forced into cities. No ties to the land. No blood and sweat in the ground.

Blogger Middle American Water Tower Man December 07, 2019 9:26 AM  

I believe that as long as you work hard and don't commit crimes then you are an American!

says boomer with black grandchildren

Blogger Azure Amaranthine December 07, 2019 9:30 AM  

Mercury vs Apollo comparison? Oh boy....

Blogger Brett baker December 07, 2019 9:36 AM  

You're right, SDL he IS a genius. Unfortunately, he will be increasingly ignored in the coming years.

Blogger Shane Bradman December 07, 2019 9:43 AM  

For anyone that knows their own tribe, uniqueness is not a concern. It doesn't matter whether or not your tribe is unsimilar to every other tribe. It just matters that it's your tribe.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine December 07, 2019 9:53 AM  

One of the overall themes is that Mercurians don't take common jobs because they believe themselves chosen for better things.

Of course, an entire society of "better" jobs can't exist, so....

"Always distinguished by their belief in education as the highway to upward social mobility,"

So, really only concerned with upward social mobility, a powerful explanation of why our higher "education" operates how it does today.

"Slezkine has totally missed the new Moslem-led, (often right- but sometimes left wing), kind of anti-Semitism that seems to be gaining force on both sides of the Atlantic."

Auto-hatred? Doubt.

"At least they are not taught that they are nothing more than the physical manifestation of an idea that anyone on the planet can adopt and thereby transform himself into a genuine American every bit as as baseball and apple pie as the direct genetic posterity of the Mayflower settlers and the soldiers of the Revolution."

True. I suspect the concept of convergent evolution plays into this. If living things are limitlessly plastic over enough time, why then of course paper Americans can become real Americans eventually! The only objection would be that the desired change isn't happening fast enough to fit the externally required time frame. Tolerate harder, bigots!

Limitless convergent plasticity, as opposed to divergent specializations with automatic pruning of sufficient degeneracy. The former says anything goes and nothing can really be lost at larger scales. The latter says that mankind is unique, fragile, and something to be well stewarded and preserved, because you don't get a second go-round. Once to die and then the Judgement.

Blogger Zaklog the Great December 07, 2019 9:56 AM  

From Crevald: America's gain [of fleeing Jews] was Russia's loss.

I don't think this "gain" has really worked very much to the benefit of ordinary Americans. I guess maybe the GDP is higher, but I'd rather have a sane, Christian culture with a lower GDP.

Blogger mrpinks December 07, 2019 10:00 AM  

It is interesting how people snapshot their culture and re-inact the routines / actions of the culture. Go to the Swiss Club in Auckland, New Zealand in the mid 90s, the members were into leiderhosen and alp-horns. Most had migrated after WW2. A Swiss migrant in the mid 90s however was more into ACDC, heavy metal etc. Its like emigrants have memories of the homeland which they keep alive through rituals and re-inactments. In fact that is the purpose of the rituals, it is like traveling through time and connecting with your ancestors.

Blogger Dole December 07, 2019 10:13 AM  

At least Jews do not believe Judeo-Christian values are responsible for their culture.

Blogger Doktor Jeep December 07, 2019 10:20 AM  

When I read that description the term "rootless cosmopolitan" kept coming to mind.
I really don't care about these people but could they just stop messing with the nations and lives of people outside their tribes? Why is that too much to ask? We're at a point where it's either divorce or war.

Blogger MagisterLudi December 07, 2019 10:21 AM  

they tend to avoid production—first agriculture, later industry—in favor of other, specifically urban, professions

We see this difference play out in terms of political ideology. Blue collar vs white collar. Country vs city. Christian vs Judeo-Christian

Blogger Beardy Bear December 07, 2019 10:23 AM  

I respect his opinion. If that is Mercurian, then mormons don't fit the bill. He adds them inappropriately.

Blogger Arthur Isaac December 07, 2019 10:25 AM  

Their religion didn't survive Babylon. That's why the Apostle Peter refers to them as such. It wasn't what God taught them so He destroyed it through His instrument Nebuchadnezzar. The end. The rest is fiction.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd December 07, 2019 10:29 AM  

Zaklog the Great wrote:I don't think this "gain" has really worked very much to the benefit of ordinary Americans. I guess maybe the GDP is higher, but I'd rather have a sane, Christian culture with a lower GDP.

Parasitism might raise GDP, but it obviously lowers our standard of living and weakens our nation. ``Parasites raise GDP'' shows a fundamental flaw in the GDP concept; it does not mean parasites are good.

Blogger Damelon Brinn December 07, 2019 10:34 AM  

Interesting about those populations avoiding production.

Yes. They'll do it if they have to, but as soon as they have the option, they trend away from it. Within their communities, or communities where they influence attitudes about class, the producers are looked down upon.

So, really only concerned with upward social mobility, a powerful explanation of why our higher "education" operates how it does today.

They managed to impress their own attitude about work on the general population, although it may slowly be wearing off as multiple generations find that a degree isn't the magical key to prosperity that they were promised. But even now, you can sit parents down and point them to plumbers and electricians who got a community college education, did some apprentice work, and are now making a very good living with no school loans; and many of them will say that's nice and then go right on pushing their kids to go to university and get a grabbler-type degree. It's a hard belief to overcome.

Blogger VFM #7634 December 07, 2019 10:37 AM  

Mercurians don't necessarily have to be urban professionals and can be involved in rural production. See: Amish. And the Overseas Chinese aren't particularly religious, who what God are they chosen by? On top of that, some of those Mercurian groups have the same religions as the people they live among, but segregate themselves for other reasons.

I suspect that Israelis are becoming more Apollonian as they have their own country. On the other hand, traditionalist Catholics like myself may be developing into a Mercurian one due to widening differences between us and mainstream "Novus Ordo" Catholics.

It's funny, but sort of as with "Gamma", I can grasp the differences between "Apollonian" and "Mercurian" and can identify a Mercurian group, even if van Creveld hasn't quite articulated it correctly to my satisfaction.

Blogger mike December 07, 2019 10:52 AM  

Appolonian - reason, culture, harmony, restraint. Mercurizn - shrewd, quick, financially astute, clever.
Guess which one Jesus was.

Blogger Stilicho December 07, 2019 11:02 AM  

Jews have long been compared to gypsies.

@zaklog: the parts of the GDP they influence most are those that measure churn. When you are focused on and financialization (and fetishize it for social status), actual production is denigrated and de-emphasized.

Blogger Al K. Annossow December 07, 2019 11:29 AM  

Many centuries of Christianity affect people. Christianity slowly changes a culture. For example, South Americans and Africans are much less changed. Avoiding/rejecting Christianity leaves an embedded people different because they chose to be different. But part of culture is to diminish differences so all members have reasonable expectations in daily interactions. Shared expectations makes both business and social interaction more efficient and harmonious - profitable and peaceful.

My expectations were that a duly elected president would be able to do his job. The leaders of the two committees and all four expert witnesses of the judiciary committees came from a 2% subgroup of society. If they had all been American Indians, I would have thought something was fishy because of the odds against it. I think something is fishy. I want a Christian culture. Then, I could attribute the conflict to just political differences rather than them being against me and my people - to all appearances, the hostilities are against me.

The same ideas can be laid out in a much stronger way, and usually are, but tame words help people see why reasonable people can hold unpopular opinions.

Blogger MidnightSun December 07, 2019 11:42 AM  

"But that does not mean they are, in principle, different; let alone that their continued existence and the elevated socio-economic status they have achieved in many countries cannot be explained by history but is due to some special kind of divine favor."

Not divine, more like demonic.

"Yet Jewish vulnerability, due to their minority status over centuries on end, did not automatically vanish just because the change in regime. That is probably one reason why first Lenin—whose own paternal grandfather was Jewish—and then Stalin recruited many of their henchmen from among them. I use the term “henchmen” advisedly; in both the GPU and the NKVD between 1917 and 1945 it was often assimilated Jewish officers, completed with black cars, leather coats, and handguns, who arrested, interrogated, tortured, prosecuted, and executed the state’s prisoners by shooting them in the back of the neck. Jewish commissars also took a prominent part in some of the greatest atrocities of all, such as the destruction of the kulaks and causing millions of Ukrainians to die by starvation."

We have no way of knowing how many Russian Christians were systematically murdered by these animals. Most churches were destroyed however not one synagogue fell. Most claim beside the Tzar and his family between 50 and 100 million were systematically murdered.

However to Mr. Sleezkine, it is just a minor footnote in history whereas he knows for sure that 1/3 of his tribe were wiped out by Hitler?
Mr Crevald still doesn't realize he being deceived. And many of the tribe that read this crap inevitably will come away with the same messianic heaven on earth ideology which is a fatal flaw in their belief system.

Blogger Shimshon December 07, 2019 11:43 AM  

A secular leftist Israeli Jew quotes from a secular Russian Jew observing his fellow Jews in Russia.

Thus concludes the author: "Thus, contrary to what I and countless Israelis have been taught, we Jews are not unique."

Did not Binyamin Netanyahu write a book titled "A Place Among the Nations?"

"First, they regard themselves as a people chosen by God. Not just any God, but specifically their own tribal one."

This is not correct. We are not like the others except in an equivocatingly superficial manner.

Deuteronomy 4:35 You have been shown in order to know that the LORD, He is the God; there is none beside Him.

Blogger Rattlesnake_Kid December 07, 2019 11:56 AM  

They declared war millenia go. They believe they will win a physical war, followers of Christ know it is a spiritual war, and God's victory is already won.

They will not settle for a divorce.

Blogger Chent December 07, 2019 12:21 PM  

"Deuteronomy 4:35 You have been shown in order to know that the LORD, He is the God; there is none beside Him."

Yes, this was said to the people of ancient Israel, who followed the Old Testament. Not to the descendant of ancient Italians that follow the Talmud.

Different people, different religions

Blogger English Tom December 07, 2019 12:25 PM  

Many of the modern day jews are descended from Khazarians, a Turkic people who have no genetic link to the children of Abraham.

They are usurped.

@Azure

Tolerate harder, bigots.

I howled with laughter. Thank you.

Blogger Shimshon December 07, 2019 12:51 PM  

Italian blood is also Levantine in origin when you follow it.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine December 07, 2019 12:59 PM  

"They managed to impress their own attitude about work on the general population"

I'm talking a bit deeper than that. Not only did they do that, but they also destroyed the schools-as-schools after taking control of them, turning them into gatekeeping mechanisms for upper society connections, the educational capability of which comes second if at all.

It used to be you went to receive higher education if you were more intelligent and society in general would benefit from you being able to fill a less-common role because of it.

Of course, once you buy into a tenet or two of a material-wealth-is-god religion such as Neo-Babelism, "less-common" translates into "rare" translates into "better", because those bottlenecks are naturally levers by which the more common occupations are easily moved.

What measure is a human being? Chosenites consider themselves different from regular humans because they are chosen. Slavery is fine, the slaves aren't humans in the same way as the Chosen. Cooption of Apollonian nations by Mercurian outsiders is always going to result in either Apollonian slavery or Mercurian rejection.

"This is not correct. We are not like the others except in an equivocatingly superficial manner."

That the others believed as you do means that their actions and proclivities as produced by those beliefs will be similar in many ways. You are like the others in those ways, even from your perspective.

Blogger VD December 07, 2019 1:12 PM  

Many of the modern day jews are descended from Khazarians, a Turkic people who have no genetic link to the children of Abraham.

This is not consistent with the DNA evidence. They appear to be a mix of Semite and Italian.

Blogger VD December 07, 2019 1:14 PM  

This is not correct. We are not like the others except in an equivocatingly superficial manner.

That's complete nonsense, Shimshon. Their claim to their "god" is every bit as good as yours. Religious Jews do not worship the Christian God, just ask any rabbi.

Blogger Pathfinderlight December 07, 2019 1:19 PM  

This helps give context to the 1960's rural purge in American entertainment.

Blogger Avalanche December 07, 2019 1:20 PM  

@26 "modern day jews are descended from Khazarians, a Turkic people"

I thought the (((folks))) in charge of all the genetic testing, and a lot of the 'which genes show which peoples where and when' had announced they had proven that modern-day jews were NOT Khazarians... cause {snort} jes' lookit dah list of "authors on this paper!

No Evidence from Genome-Wide Data of a Khazar Origin for the Ashkenazi Jews
Doron M. Behar, Mait Metspalu, Yael Baran, Naama M. Kopelman, Bayazit Yunusbayev, Ariella Gladstein, Shay Tzur, Hovhannes Sahakyan, Ardeshir Bahmanimehr, Levon Yepiskoposyan, Kristiina Tambets, Elza K. Khusnutdinova, Alena Kushniarevich, Oleg Balanovsky, Elena Balanovsky, Lejla Kovacevic, Damir Marjanovic, Evelin Mihailov, Anastasia Kouvatsi, Costas Triantaphyllidis, Roy J. King, Ornella Semino, Antonio Torroni, Michael F. Hammer, Ene Metspalu, Karl Skorecki, Saharon Rosset, Eran Halperin, Richard Villems, Noah A. Rosenberg

https://bioone.org/journals/Human-Biology/volume-85/issue-6/027.085.0604/No-Evidence-from-Genome-Wide-Data-of-a-Khazar-Origin/10.3378/027.085.0604.short

Blogger VFM #7634 December 07, 2019 1:45 PM  

Several reasons I don't buy the Khazar hypothesis, such as the lack of any Turkic loanwords in Yiddish, or that Jewish women would be much better looking if they were in fact descended from Khazars.

Blogger Jack Amok December 07, 2019 1:51 PM  

Of course, an entire society of "better" jobs can't exist, so....

Indeed. Any functional society needs some people to muck out stalls, fall timber, dig stuff out of the ground, bust their knuckles turning wrenches, and climb power poles in the rain to keep the high-tension lines humming. When the people doing the "better jobs" stop thinking of themselves (or never thought to begin with) as associated with the people kicking shit off their boots at the end of the day, trouble isn't far away.

"Always distinguished by their belief in education as the highway to upward social mobility,"

All throughout American society we are plagued by this addiction to social mobility and to the "growth" it requires. Not only do we have the problem of everyone wanting to be the Boss (requiring we import lots of new Indians for all the would-be-Chiefs), but we have huge sectors of our economy dedicated to facilitating this growth.

Blogger Gen. Kong December 07, 2019 2:25 PM  

The Mercurian/Appolonian divide has been noted long before Slezkine, and his omission of Overseas Chinese from the Mercurian group is even more glaring than his inclusion of Mormons. As some above have noted, now that Israel has been around for a lifetime there seem to be some elements of the Apollonian forming there.

The chief difference between (((the healers))) and the others is that while Low-Trust Mercurians will often exert considerable influence-peddling for their tribe's benefit, the others don't have this congenital propensity to actively eradicate the host society that (((the healers))) do. Speaking of (((the healers))), it now looks like the (((Sacklers))) - who still walk free - had even more influence than previously thought in "healing" not only YT here in Kwa-Bananaland but were also influential in having their filthy lackeys in Sodom-on-Potomac "healing" the goatheards in the poppy-fields of Pashtoonistan with bombs and bullets as they relieved them of their crops.

Blogger Shimshon December 07, 2019 3:38 PM  

"First, they regard themselves as a people chosen by God. Not just any God, but specifically their own tribal one."

I'm going to call BS on this (that the book The Jewish Century by Yuri Slezkine makes such a comparison). I just searched this book for the word "god." It occurs on five pages. In none is the context even remotely like this. This could just be van Creveld projecting his own insecurities about Jewish chosenness onto others.

The only use of the word "chosen" is specifically in reference to Jews.

"And like all Mercurians, they tended to think of themselves as a chosen tribe consisting of chosen clans -- and to act accordingly."

Bingo! Sure, we're all "chosen." But only we are chosen by...God...The Creator and Sustainer of the universe (or world, or whatever it is). There is no comparison, there is no comparable claim. And if there is, it is not mentioned in the book.

Van Creveld may be a genius, but he is still human. He sees what he wants to see and concludes what he wants to conclude.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 07, 2019 3:44 PM  

Shimshon wrote:I'm going to call BS on this (that the book The Jewish Century by Yuri Slezkine makes such a comparison). I just searched this book for the word "god."
Thereby illustrating exactly the point made by the original author. Very good, have a shekel.

Blogger Didas Kalos December 07, 2019 3:48 PM  

@arthur Isaac You've never read Ezra have you?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 07, 2019 3:52 PM  

Beardy Bear wrote:I respect his opinion. If that is Mercurian, then mormons don't fit the bill. He adds them inappropriately.
Not in America, certainly. But it's quite possibly true in Europe or Israel, where van Creveld would have encountered them.

Blogger Shimshon December 07, 2019 3:57 PM  

"“Mercurian” peoples were and are distinguished from the rest—Apollonians, is what Slezkine calls them—in two principal ways. First, they regard themselves as a people chosen by God. Not just any God, but specifically their own tribal one."

And who are the Mercurians?

"Including, to mention but a few, the Gypsies of Europe, the Persians and the Jain of India, the Copts of Egypt, the Fuga of southern Ethiopia, the Ibo of modern Nigeria, the Eta of traditional Japan, the Armenians and Greeks in the Ottoman Empire, the Nestorians in the Middle East, the Mormons in the U.S—an example Slezkine does not mention–and, above all, the overseas Chinese."

Snidely, van Creveld's observation may or may not be true, but he is making his own original observation and attributing it to someone else. Yuri Slezkine never said any such thing. At least not in the book. All he said in the book is that these different groups, but in references to Jews, "think of themselves as a chosen tribe consisting of chosen clans." Hey, everyone can be a secret king.

That's a far cry from: "First, they regard themselves as a people chosen by God. Not just any God, but specifically their own tribal one."

And an even farther cry from: "Thus, contrary to what I and countless Israelis have been taught, we Jews are not unique."

Blogger MJ December 07, 2019 4:24 PM  

https://twitter.com/PyotrNemets/status/1202824770099638277?s=19

Good thread about the farcical American history now taught in public schools.

Blogger SciVo December 07, 2019 4:44 PM  

Doktor Jeep wrote:When I read that description the term "rootless cosmopolitan" kept coming to mind.

I really don't care about these people but could they just stop messing with the nations and lives of people outside their tribes? Why is that too much to ask? We're at a point where it's either divorce or war.


They just can't stop trying to tikkun the olam, which is to say, "heal the world" by erasing all goy cultures. So they force the question of die or fight.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 07, 2019 4:49 PM  

Shimshon wrote:Snidely, van Creveld's observation may or may not be true, but he is making his own original observation and attributing it to someone else.
the Mormons in the U.S—an example Slezkine does not mention

Blogger VD December 07, 2019 4:53 PM  

Only we are chosen by...God...The Creator and Sustainer of the universe (or world, or whatever it is). There is no comparison, there is no comparable claim.

You're flat-out wrong on multiple levels.

1. "Rastas typically believe that black Africans are God's chosen people, meaning that they made a deal with him and thus have a special responsibility."

2. The modern Jews are only partially related to one-twelfth of the people who were chosen by the God of the Old Testament. God chose the people of Israel, which includes the other eleven tribes.

3. And then, of course, there is all that Italian DNA....

Your argument is wrong, Shimshon.

Blogger DourCdn December 07, 2019 4:57 PM  

Good one

Blogger DourCdn December 07, 2019 5:08 PM  

You nailed it. Modern education, especially public education, is a belief system. My 12 year old sees through it, after listenibg to a a radio clip about a province wide teacher's strike he asked me "Why do they need more money, they don't teach us anything" .

Blogger jkmack December 07, 2019 5:08 PM  

If Creveld is victim to wizard spells, how arrogant am I to think that all my received knowledge is true?

Blogger Andrew Jackson December 07, 2019 5:32 PM  

Creveld is overrated.

Blogger Azimus December 07, 2019 5:34 PM  

I take it that Mr. Creveld is a secular man with a skepticism of the Torah and the Hebrew Bible. No doubt the book he reviews offers far more substance than this single passage, and I don't pretend to know all history, but even from a secular perspective, a nation that appears out of nowhere, build a kingdom of 20 generations, disappears for two generations, reappears again disappears again and reappears again over the course of 4 millenianis unique in world history?

Blogger Azure Amaranthine December 07, 2019 6:07 PM  

"Not in America, certainly. But it's quite possibly true in Europe or Israel"

Or if we managed to colonize any other planets. I'd expect them to suddenly be much more Mercurian-like in that scenario.

"All he said in the book is that these different groups, but in references to Jews, "think of themselves as a chosen tribe consisting of chosen clans.""

That's your argument? If they weren't chosen by their god, them by whom? If being chosen was THAT important to them it would have to be by some set that they treated as though it were supreme, even if they didn't name it god. Call it god, the universe, the genus mundi, the escape hatch of samsara, the exalted ancestors....

Blogger Azure Amaranthine December 07, 2019 6:11 PM  

@Azimus I don't see how it could be even close to unique by those criteria beyond trying to be extremely precise with the exact numbers. A fair number of nations have been born, built kingdoms that lasted for many generations, been in threat disappearing and reappearing repeatedly, and ultimately survived -- at least in claimed name -- over long periods of time.

Blogger Shadow Banisher December 07, 2019 7:09 PM  

God told the Jews very specifically that He chose them because they were NOT special. There is also no clear Jewish lineage.

Even in the OT they are constantly intermarrying; and they departed from the Egyptian Captivity as "a mixed multutude."

What makes a people belong to God is if they have the faith of Christ, as Abraham did - not the blood of Abraham. Jesus is the promised "Seed" of the covenant.

Blogger Unknown December 07, 2019 7:40 PM  

I read that most gypsies are Christians. Some are muslims if they live in Muslim countries.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 07, 2019 8:22 PM  

Unknown wrote:I read that most gypsies are Christians
For some definitions of "Christian" and "Musselman" I suppose.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd December 07, 2019 11:51 PM  

Shimshon wrote:But only we are chosen by...God...The Creator and Sustainer of the universe (or world, or whatever it is).

The Creator and Sustainer of the universe is the God of the Patriarchs. He is the God who sent Jesus of Nazareth as the promised messiah. He is the God you reject when you reject Jesus.

God chose Abraham? Yes, because Abraham had faith. God has flushed every one of Abraham's descendants who did not have that faith. If you want to be right with God, your only choice is to come to God on His terms. For nearly 2,000 years, the only terms God has offered have been to accept Jesus. That offer is open to Jews, same as it is to everyone else.

Accept Jesus, or get flushed to hell with the rest of the turds.

Blogger Shimshon December 08, 2019 12:24 AM  

VD wrote:Only we are chosen by...God...The Creator and Sustainer of the universe (or world, or whatever it is). There is no comparison, there is no comparable claim.

You're flat-out wrong on multiple levels.

1. "Rastas typically believe that black Africans are God's chosen people, meaning that they made a deal with him and thus have a special responsibility."

2. The modern Jews are only partially related to one-twelfth of the people who were chosen by the God of the Old Testament. God chose the people of Israel, which includes the other eleven tribes.

3. And then, of course, there is all that Italian DNA....

Your argument is wrong, Shimshon.


1. Do 3 billion people hold Rastafarian scriptures (assuming they exist) holy and the word of God? How many people are even aware of their claim?

2. By the time Ten (not eleven) Tribes were exiled from the (Northern) Kingdom of Israel, the border between it and the (Southern) Kingdom of Judea (which always included the tribe of Benjamin) was wide open. Do you think that refugees didn't stream south as well as in all other directions. All twelve tribes are represented in our collective DNA.

3. You do keep saying this. And I keep pointing out that if you follow Italian DNA, you will end up in the Levant. I know you don't like people asking for citations for your claims, but I will provide if asked.

Besides which, it is irrelevant. We have a naturalization procedure. It's called conversion. Your (the Jews) people will become my people, and your God, mine. I know many converts. They have joined our nation fully. It looks like watered-down DNA to you. It is still our nation.

Christians like to talk about how God abandoned the Jews. Hence argumentation like the above. We're not really chosen because we're not even really Israel.

Surprisingly to me, this was true. God did abandon us. It says so in our Bible, in a verse that was only pointed out to me recently.

For but a brief moment I have abandoned you [Israel, My wife], and with abundant mercy shall I gather you in. With a slight wrath have I concealed My countenance from you for a moment, but with eternal kindness shall I show you mercy, said your Redeemer, the LORD.
Isaiah 54:7-8

Blogger Shimshon December 08, 2019 12:35 AM  

Did you see the paper that came out and showed that Latins of the Roman Empire were 45% Canaanite? This would also mess up the Italian DNA and make them much more related to Jews and not visa versa.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/11/open-analysis-and-discussion-thread.html

Blogger Shimshon December 08, 2019 2:03 AM  

All I was doing was calling BS on something Martin van Creveld claimed to learn from someone else. He did no such thing. He obviously believes the things he says. But he didn't learn them from Slezkine’s book. Am I right or wrong on this particular observation?

If you want to get Talmudic with me on the meaning of nation, DNA, Jew, Israel, chosen, and God, that's fine with me. As a Talmudist, I'm always up for it. But that's not what I was trying to do.

Blogger Adlow December 08, 2019 3:00 AM  

>Did you see the paper that came out and showed that Latins of the Roman Empire were 45% Canaanite?

The paper showed no such thing, it found that the city of Rome had a large number of non-Latin immigrants from the eastern Med. And calling them Canaanites is pure sophistry, unless you're willing to concede the Greeks, Turks, and Syrians a greater claim to Israel than the Jews.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine December 08, 2019 3:12 AM  

"Do 3 billion people hold Rastafarian scriptures (assuming they exist) holy and the word of God? How many people are even aware of their claim?"

That's nice, but you know perfectly well that you're abusing the part where most of those 3bn don't agree with your analysis of said scriptures.

All twelve tribes are represented in our collective DNA."

Presumably. We can only be certain about ~2 1/2 of them though. Even then you're still missing the point that the others who aren't among you would be chosen by your logic....

"You do keep saying this. And I keep pointing out that if you follow Italian DNA, you will end up in the Levant."

Follow how? Historically or through genetic studies which might reverse cause and effect since they're really only making comparisons to other known genetics?

"I know many converts. They have joined our nation fully."

There's the forked words you guys have bought into and foisted on us. They can't fully join your nation except by being physically born into it. Maybe their descendants after long enough, but not the converts themselves.

"Christians like to talk about how God abandoned the Jews."

No, it is the Jews who rejected God were they didn't like him. Nearly everyone does this, but the Jews rejected the entire part that matters.

"45% Canaanite? This would also mess up the Italian DNA and make them much more related to Jews and not visa versa."

How exactly do you figure that Canaanite is Jew. You have to first assume that what they are calling Canaanite is not Canaanite....

Blogger VD December 08, 2019 5:33 AM  

Do 3 billion people hold Rastafarian scriptures (assuming they exist) holy and the word of God? How many people are even aware of their claim?

Irrelevant. You made a blatantly false assertion. Nor are the Rastas the only one, but it demonstrates that your level of knowledge on the subject doesn't even rise to the level of Wikipedia.

All twelve tribes are represented in our collective DNA.

That's very likely to be untrue. It's also irrelevant. The Samaritans and their descendants have more genuine Israeli DNA than modern Jews do.

I keep pointing out that if you follow Italian DNA, you will end up in the Levant.

Of course, and that isn't Israeli DNA either.

All I was doing was calling BS on something Martin van Creveld claimed to learn from someone else.

That's nice. Go call BS on him. I haven't read the book nor do I plan to do so. Now, wy are you attempting to argue with me here on this blog rather than criticizing him directly? You may well be correct about that, but the fact that you have repeatedly made obviously false assertions in support of your position doesn't bode well.

Blogger Shimshon December 08, 2019 5:38 AM  

"That's nice. Go call BS on him. I haven't read the book nor do I plan to do so. Now, wy are you attempting to argue with me here on this blog rather than criticizing him directly? You may well be correct about that, but the fact that you have repeatedly made obviously false assertions in support of your position doesn't bode well."

Yes, I wrong for that and I apologize. I like it here, and do my best to abide by house rules.

Blogger Unknown December 08, 2019 6:29 AM  

I just read that the Ibo or Igbo are mostly Christian.

Blogger roundeye December 08, 2019 7:33 AM  

Amy Chua noted this in "World on Fire". She also noted these "market dominate minorities" get it in the neck over and over. 1975 Vietnam and Chinese diaspoa, Amin's Uganda and Indians, East Timor and ovseas Chinese. She is an overseas Chinese and married a Jew. The examples are multifold - 1492 Spain, Singapore being kicked out of Indonesia, Navoo Illinois and the Mormons.....

Blogger FrankNorman December 08, 2019 7:37 AM  

Form a common sense perspective every nation on Earth is in some sense unique. Only the Dutch are the Dutch. Only the Japanese are the Japanese. And only the Jews are the Jews. but at the same time all of those nations have characteristics that are not unique but which they share with other nations. The Japanese are not the only island people. The Dutch are not the only people who had a maritime commercial empire. And the Jews are not the only people to identify themselves by their national religion.

Blogger VD December 08, 2019 7:44 AM  

Yes, I wrong for that and I apologize.

No worries.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella December 08, 2019 12:30 PM  

Poland did not have a country to call their own for years. Then they had a new country. They had a king. They have a government. They had a religious leader that billions of people knew as the Pope, and some regard as a saint. They have a holy scripture. So, are Poles as special as Israelis?

There were many, many tribal religions. Some persisted through time until the Soviets killed them off. The Soviet genocidaires were, in general, Jewish. I'm not sure I'd claim that my deity was supreme and virtuous just by reason of being able to kill off as many as possible followers of another deity. They were performing horse burials through the 1970s- Scythian religion. There were towns founded during the Hellenic majesty- they were wiped out by Stalin. Who knows what they worshipped?

SJWs seem to be in rebellion against a Zeus- like deity. He's more real to them than other visions- they certainly don't seem to be atheist.

We are 100-ish years in on Mormonism, and slightly less than that for Scientology. Who knows what they will be saying in 1,000 years, if they make it? Will they want right of return to Nauvoo, or New England, as the perfected Congregationalists?

Scientology has three generations at this point. What will they say, generations in? Talmudism was cooked up by bright book-writers with some vengeful fantasies. Scientology has films. It's the same thing- a man-made religion. Will Scientology be inbred in a thousand years?

Blogger SirHamster December 08, 2019 1:29 PM  

Christians like to talk about how God abandoned the Jews.

This is a filthy lie.

Christians believe God has been faithful to the Jews, even when they have not been faithful.

Under Churchian influence, Christians like to point to the establishment and continuation of the state of Israel as evidence of God's continued protection and love for the Jews.

Were Christians to say that God rejects Jews from claiming Jesus as Lord and thus from finding final salvation for their souls, then you would have a claim at saying Christians think God has abandoned Jews.

That is not the case and will never happen. We Christians don't believe God has abandoned the Jews, nor do we like talking about God abandoning the Jews, as if we followed an unfaithful God.

God is faithful, forever and ever.

Blogger JamesB.BKK December 08, 2019 6:04 PM  

The USSR collapsed because so many Jews left is not high praise.

Blogger Jeff December 08, 2019 6:28 PM  

Just curious as to how many Nobel Prizes the the Gypsies of Europe, the Persians and the Jain of India, the Copts of Egypt, the Fuga of southern Ethiopia, the Ibo of modern Nigeria, the Eta of traditional Japan, the Armenians and Greeks in the Ottoman Empire, the Nestorians in the Middle East, and the Mormons in the U.S have won.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd December 08, 2019 6:38 PM  

Shimshon, you keep saying that Jews have Abraham's DNA, and I believe you. Surely you don't think Jews are unique in that?

There are the Ten Lost Tribes, and there are the tens of thousands of Jews who converted before the Temple was destroyed, and countless thousands of converts since 70AD. Most of today's Christians likely have Abraham's DNA, likely are literal children of Father Abraham.

If you wanted to prove that some random Christian did not count Abraham as an ancestor, how would you begin? Merely not being a close relative of yours is a weak proof: we have no idea what DNA the Ten Tribes have that your two and a half did not.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine December 08, 2019 8:50 PM  

"Just curious as to how many Nobel Prizes"

The Nobels are rather like the Hugos. Their corruption just hasn't been exposed yet to the same degree. In addition, many of those died out before the Nobels ever existed.

Blogger Shimshon December 09, 2019 12:22 AM  

@71 "Shimshon, you keep saying that Jews have Abraham's DNA, and I believe you. Surely you don't think Jews are unique in that?"

God said he would make Abram ("father of Aram") a great nation, and changed his name to Abraham, "father of many nations."

The Yishmaelites (commonly accepted to be the Arabs) and the Edomites (we hold them to be the progenitors of Rome), along with various nations sent to the "East" (the offspring of Keturah) are all held come from him too. But the nation God had in mind was the nation of Israel.

DNA is not nation, and nation is not DNA. DNA is not nothing, but it is not everything either. We have our own definition for what our nation is and how to join.

We have modern instances of Jews being lost to our nation returning. Like the descendants of the Spanish Conversos. There are cases where clear matrilineal descent has been preserved and documented, and those cases are Jews according to all. The others, which amount to nothing but a claim, (like the recent Ethiopian cases, which by DNA have very little if any connection) have to go through some form of conversion, which may be more or less pro forma depending on circumstances.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine December 09, 2019 3:25 AM  

"We have our own definition for what our nation is and how to join."

That word, you keep using it. I don' think it means what you think it means....

What you are describing is not a nation. As DNA is the current most precise version of "blood", while DNA isn't the only thing determining what is a nation, it can undoubtedly determine what isn't, and no amount of happy thoughts can change that.

If you're going to systematically definine a word differently than anyone else, get a different word. Insisting on using that word cannot possibly be based on anything other than intentional deceit and lexical warfare.

Blogger FrankNorman December 09, 2019 4:29 AM  

73. Shimshon December 09, 2019 12:22 AM
...and the Edomites (we hold them to be the progenitors of Rome)...


Tangential to your point, but that does not make sense at all.
The Idumeans (as the Romans called them) were still in their old homeland to the north of the Sinai as late as the First Century AD. Herod the Great was an Edomite.

We know quite a bit about the history and background of the Latin peoples, and it simply doesn't fit with a Middle-Eastern origin (though I'm told a case could be made for the Etruscans) especially that late in history.

Blogger Dick December 09, 2019 4:44 AM  

Legendary.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 09, 2019 9:33 AM  

What he's saying is that as soon as there was a major urban center with lots of money to steal, the place was overrun with Jews.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd December 09, 2019 11:36 AM  

Shimshon wrote:God said he would make Abram ("father of Aram") a great nation, and changed his name to Abraham, "father of many nations."

I think we agree that many nations today have Abraham's DNA, and that the DNA by itself means nothing.

Abraham was chosen by God for his faith. His descendants were chosen or discarded for their faith or their lack of faith. The three thousand who were killed in the golden calf incident were killed because they abandoned God. The Ten Tribes were marched off into obscurity because of their lack of faith.

So, which group of Abraham's descendants are the Chosen Ones today: Jews or Christians? Is it the group which explicitly denies God and His messiah, or is it the group which explicitly embraces God on His terms, through their faith in the messiah He sent?

God never abandoned His promise to Abraham, has never abandoned any descendant of Abraham who called upon His name, but God has abandoned the Jews who deny Him and His messiah.

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