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Tuesday, December 03, 2019

Mailvox: patterns of behavior

A reader writes about his experience observing the predictable utility of the Socio-Sexual Hierarchy.

 I recently watched your SSH video and I have been tuning into the Darkstreams more often. The insights about gammas have been surreal as I reflect on interactions I have, a recent one stands out at church.

After service, we took a fellow out to lunch for his birthday. There were six of us, all men, few of us married. I sat across from him, and as conversation built up I asked him (call him Joe) all about his work. He's a shy guy, slight autism is probably there, but he gets along with and is adored by everyone in our circle. I know nothing about his field, so I asked him lots of questions, genuinely interested, and also ensuring the focus was on him being able to talk about what he loves, after all it's his birthday. He was having a great time talking about his work, his hobbies, and all of us gave him the spotlight, except...

There's a guy beside him (call him Gamma) who I didn't know well but one of the guys apparently had asked him if he wanted to come along. Now, every single time there was a nanosecond lull in the conversation, this guy physically jutted his head forward over the table as if sticking his boot in so you can't shut the door, and he'd inject something like "So I went to the gaming convention a couple weeks ago, the one that was blah blah." I mean we would ask Joe about himself, share memories about him and church, but as soon as there was a fraction of an opening, boom! This guy just couldn't stop talking about himself. It was unreal, I had never witnessed anyone so self-involved, especially when we're out for lunch treating the guy beside him whose birthday it is!

Several of us were obviously annoyed but no one wanted to ruin Joe's birthday, we just ignored the Gamma mostly, nodding and smiling as he would go on. When lunch was over, the Gamma asked if one of us could give him a ride home, as he'd come with my friend Alex who was heading back to church to get his wife. We all looked uneasy but one of the guys whose wife wasn't a part of the event at church said sure. That night, the guy who gave Gamma a ride calls me about some church events coming up, then mentions Gamma. "Dude, he just talked the whole way." I laughed, but I still hadn't figured the gamma attribute until my friend said, "I mentioned I gave Gamma a ride to Sue, and she gave me this sour look. She said all of the gals try to avoid him, he's always trying to approach some of them to chat and they find some way to get out of it." It really clicked with that, the women thing. They just cannot stand him.

Thanks for being ferocious in exposing the patterns of behavior. It has inspired me to look at myself more often, check what my patterns are. Also, it has been saving me a lot of time from being around men when I notice certain patterns, and can avoid the exhaustion they'll bring.

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44 Comments:

Blogger Daniele Grech Pereira December 03, 2019 6:11 AM  

There are some gammas who just need to company of some decent men to influence and correct their behaviour. This guy doesn't sound like one of them.

Although, I noticed a lot of people identified as gammas, are people with ADD and often on stims which make them extremely talkative. Just an observation.

Blogger Meng Greenleaf December 03, 2019 6:14 AM  

I find the hierarchy quite informative and it'll be interesting to read of the dynamics between genetics and environmental factors as they're uncovered in the coming decades. I sometimes wonder where I fit in, in various groups.

Though I grew up with my mother, I was the "alpha" with regards to wrestling in our small group of friends.

I went to a family reunion (father's side) where one uncle (of 5) himself had 10 sons. I decided to challenge a cousin to a match. He had me in a chokehold in under 30 sec. As a matter of fact, as I began to blackout, another cousin pried his arm off my windpipe. I gasped and gulped at air.

I was definitely not alpha in that group. I cannot imagine how the boys on that side of the family sorted out the hierarchy.

Though I was left shaken, the experience was a good one. One I needed at the time.

Blogger ar10308 December 03, 2019 6:56 AM  

Vox, your recent Darkstream where you discussed the Christmas movie with Jack Black acting as the clever Gamma was quite illuminating. Given that so many Hollywood movies feature this pattern of behavior and show it being rewarded, it very likely contributes to the increase in Gamma behavior in men of the West. Especially given the source of these movies. I know that it influenced my own behavior when I was younger and Blue Pilled.

Blogger FrankNorman December 03, 2019 7:07 AM  

That "Gamma" who kept wanting to make everything be about himself while at someone's birthday gathering sounds like a Narcissist.

Blogger Haus frau December 03, 2019 7:09 AM  

Understanding gamma behaviors and that a gamma is a man with a female mental process is healthy for women too. Even women shouldn't over indulge in gamma habits and strive to limit the "me" talk.

Blogger RobertDWood December 03, 2019 7:13 AM  

First comment and already found one. Ties the record.

Blogger RobertDWood December 03, 2019 7:16 AM  

Group settings in a restaurant are very good at revealing people's character. How they listen to other people, how they can choose to focus on the boor across the table from them instead of trying to track something 2 seats down to the right, and how they treat the wait staff.

Blogger lazarus long December 03, 2019 7:47 AM  

I made gamma moves on uppers. Big time. I second this absolutely, stimulants are like gamma channel tuners.

Blogger Zaklog the Great December 03, 2019 8:07 AM  

@2 Although I am not at all expert on this, it appears to me that if you can look back on an obvious defeat and say, “I needed that,” you’re definitely not a gamma.

Glad to see comments are back. Thank you, Dark Lord.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 03, 2019 8:21 AM  

Self-absorption + the Internet's invitation to believe the world hangs on your every thought/action/purchase/opinion...
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We exist in a milieu tailor-made to hijack our Natural impulses (food, sex, novelty, social hierarchy), repurposing them to put money in others' pockets while we sink into the tar pit of our own impulsive acts.

Relatively few people are immune to each and every invitation to vice, now that we exist in a saturation-sphere of them. Gambling, Porn/Prostitution, alcohol--and now "recreational" pot, sexual hedonism...and the (anti)social media Siren's Song that "you are special, everyone hangs on your every word" all combine to corrupt each of us, tempt us in ways a saner society used to at least attempt to reduce.

Clearly, in this movie George Bailey was never born.
--------
"Gamma" behavior seen in this context is a vice, and the Modern World invites and amplifies it.

Blogger Himself December 03, 2019 9:22 AM  

He's lucky. He only had to endure a lunch with one. I have a gamma that works for me. I emailed the Dark Lord about it, and his response was "Fire him now. He won't get better". Sage advice.

Been trying ever since. They are easy to break though, and the last two outbursts (always email, BTW, never in person or on a meeting) probably cooked his goose. If he were based in the US, he'd have been toast months ago.

Blogger Barbarossa December 03, 2019 9:34 AM  

@7 My wife and I were just remarking upon this the other day. In addition to your other observations, add the person who orders the most expensive item on the menu when the decision has been made to split the check evenly but gets the cheapest thing when it's separate checks. Many moons ago, I had a coworker who completely destroyed what little reputation he had in one lunch outing. A fairly large group of us went to lunch at a restaurant that happened to be slammed. Food was slow coming out, but it obviously had nothing to do with the waitress. Said coworker proposed stiffing the waitress on the tip which was soundly rejected. He then doubled-down by objecting to the rest of us tossing down a reasonably generous gratuity which earned him a "don't tell me how to spend my own *#!@ money, you cheap SOB." Character amply revealed.

Blogger mrkai113 December 03, 2019 9:53 AM  

Wants to be alpha. Writes endlessly about himself despite not being asked. First thing he does is talk about his mom. Easily beaten by real males, despite being a subject matter expert. I think I know where they sorted you into the hierarchy.

Blogger Nation-Deprived December 03, 2019 9:58 AM  

After learning the SSH I find it much easier to spot gammas, alphas, self-correct my gamma tendencies. But I would love to see more Voxiversities next year on detas and bravos. Those guys sort of blend together to me.

Blogger rumpole5 December 03, 2019 10:14 AM  

The sad thing is that a Gamma has such an overwhelming need to be a part of the hierarchy. If he could just "get a life" and develop some sustaining interests, not focused on impressing others, the gamma would be so much happier. Why are people so focused on others? I live around the corner from a number of millionaires who live in gargantuan houses on the intracostal waterway. I enjoy seeing their beautiful lit up homes as I drive by, especially now in advent when the decorations go up, but the sort of driven lives that they must live and the amount of time they must devote to living that life is the dark side of the moon to me. I don't envy it or desire to engage with them. I feel the same way about Alphas, their high maintenance women, and what must be constant high competition in every male to male relationship they have. Nope, no thanks. One key to peace and happiness is knowing one's place in the scheme of things, and a second is accepting the fact that life is not fair or equal. Well, enough said. Time for a walk on the beach!

Blogger ASH December 03, 2019 10:22 AM  

Hey Vox, I havent seen a darkstream or blogpost on Gamma Coworkers. The only rule I can follow is "dont hire them". Fair enough, but Im currently deployed and big Military decided to sent CPT Gamma our way. We both work for MAJ Alpha. Your stereotypical tall jock that points out and publically shames CPT Gamma. Im the LT Bravo in this situation and I tend to join in on the "bullying" when MAJ Alpha does. But I also cant help but try to make peace with CPT Gamma because our Cell needs him to accurately perform his job. So the question is:

How do you work with a Gamma, given you literally have no choice but to work with him.

Blogger Silent Draco December 03, 2019 10:33 AM  

Good observation about stimulants. They torque down on ADD symptoms at the cost of dependence and tunnel vision. Tunnel vision enhances Gammatude. They really need someone to speak or step on their foot, to break the spell.

Blogger CM December 03, 2019 10:57 AM  

Understanding gamma behaviors and that a gamma is a man with a female mental process is healthy for women too. Even women shouldn't over indulge in gamma habits and strive to limit the "me" talk.

Yes. Gamma talk around here has had me feeling quite ashamed of my own behavior and catching it more often.

Women have a hierarchy, too. Sometimes the hierarchy here makes me wish I understood it better, but I don't think I'd enjoy reading any woman who attempted to understand it >.<

Blogger Oswald December 03, 2019 10:59 AM  

Does it really ruin the birthday by calling the gamma out? Seems to me it was already being ruined. Besides, you can be sure the gamma wouldn't be asking the person that called him out for a ride anywhere.

Blogger Jay Will December 03, 2019 11:12 AM  

Its less about superficial things such as how much money you earn or even how good you are at something. The gamma is searching for the initial no strings attached love of the parent. He's failed to launch, hence why we are all online searching for father figures who will love us and make all the pain go away.

He's an adolescent in a an adult body. The problem is you can't treat him as an adolescent because he can't face the fact that he hasn't grown up. When you shine the light on that the spitting and snarling will start. Its no surprise really a 45 year old man with the emotional development of a 16 year old is hardly likely to find life very easy. There's a lot of nice people around, too nice, but many people particularly women will ridicule him. He's a pathetic figure so its understandable that people would avoid him.

I'm not triggered at all by somebody being a good writer, rich. has a fast car etc. The triggering is related to physical size, jaw size, voice depth etc. Its primal. If the same successful man looks like a Shapiru nothing would happen. Indeed Id assume his wife doesn't respect him and is with him for money.

Its not good when adult men are stuck with other adult men who are like adolescents. However, I would definitely encourage that upon an enemy tribe much like Id encourage women in the military, its a recipe for failure and we always want our enemies to fail. The gamma is a part of nature, but it can be socially engineered, and the highest levels know this sort of stuff and want it too happen.

Blogger Stan_qaz December 03, 2019 11:40 AM  

Have to work with a Gamma? Cover yourself, never leave them an opening to betray you for their own gain or to cover their shortcomings.

I've gone so far as to follow up every verbal instruction with a written copy, or skip the verbal and give them an "I need to think on that, I'll get back to you." and do so in written form.

If you can't fire them, move them. Get them sent off to school, loan them to someone shorthanded, anything. Motivate them to move too, in the military a hint of a future bad efficiency report if they don't go somewhere can do wonders.

Blogger RealTalk103 December 03, 2019 12:39 PM  

Random SSH esthetics. S2E11 Big Bang Theory.
1. Gamma Leonard hateful/jealous of rival Alpha Underhill physicist. Throws lots of shade.
2. Underhill asks Leonard to work with him. Leonard acts like a school girl who just got asked out. Infatuated by Alpha for the next 5 minutes of the episode.
3. Alpha Underhill meets Penny, hits it off. Gamma Leonard becomes a hater again.
4. Alpha proves to be a jerk, and Penny runs back to friend zoned Gamma for comfort.
Was watching the episode while reading this. I cant stop myself from seeing shit through this lens anymore. It's everywhere!

Blogger Longtime Lurker December 03, 2019 12:59 PM  

Gamma sounds more like a personality disorder than a personality type.

Blogger Gianna December 03, 2019 1:27 PM  

Same here on all points. And learning "no one cares about how smart you are" has helped a lot with my social anxiety.

Blogger God Emperor Memes December 03, 2019 1:30 PM  

He literally wrote about a situation in which he discovered he was NOT Alpha.
Losing and admitting it, without making excuses = Not Gamma.
You didn't need to be rude.

Blogger Gen. Kong December 03, 2019 1:33 PM  

Are there a lot more gammas around now than in past times? Or is it more of a case of gamma behavior being more exposed? Yes it was always there to some degree but it appears (just my casual observation) to be far more common now than it was even 20-30 years ago. If there has been a substantial increase, is it the fruit of feminism, the divorce racket and the overall rise is cultural degeneracy? Personality disorder strikes me as a very apt description. Is is possible that in earlier times, at least a portion of the boys who were prone to this disorder would have been corrected at younger ages by churches, sports teams, jobs, the boy scouts or the military??

Blogger Haus frau December 03, 2019 1:35 PM  

@18 "Women have a hierarchy, too. Sometimes the hierarchy here makes me wish I understood it better, but I don't think I'd enjoy reading any woman who attempted to understand it >."

Its funny because you know the first and foremost means a female author would employ to describe such a hierarchy would be a detailed accounting of herself, her experiences, and her thoughts on her own status in the hierarchy .

Blogger Balam December 03, 2019 1:48 PM  

@Stan_quaz
''Have to work with a Gamma? Cover yourself, never leave them an opening to betray you for their own gain or to cover their shortcomings.''

I have personally found it useful to have a trap set for them or a piece of blackmail to keep them off your back. Not super spy blackmail stuff, just something that would be mildly embarrassing and dismissed with a quick apology by a normal person or even laughed off by an alpha. They fear public embarrassment most of all and will extraordinarily go out of their way to avoid it and that means avoiding you if you have the power to cause it.

If you have no choice but to work with them, that is.

Blogger God Emperor Memes December 03, 2019 2:29 PM  

I think there are a lot more now, and I think it has a lot to do with feminists and the rise of single motherhood. - Boys raised by women don't learn how to act like men.

Blogger Longtime Lurker December 03, 2019 2:59 PM  

@29: Yup. That ties in with the societal overemphasis on "toxic male behavior."

Blogger M.S. December 03, 2019 3:17 PM  

Gen. Kong wrote:Are there a lot more gammas around now than in past times? Or is it more of a case of gamma behavior being more exposed? Yes it was always there to some degree but it appears (just my casual observation) to be far more common now than it was even 20-30 years ago. If there has been a substantial increase, is it the fruit of feminism, the divorce racket and the overall rise is cultural degeneracy? Personality disorder strikes me as a very apt description. Is is possible that in earlier times, at least a portion of the boys who were prone to this disorder would have been corrected at younger ages by churches, sports teams, jobs, the boy scouts or the military??
It's all of that and more. The well-being of a civilization's Introverts, intellectually gifted, highly sensitive people is a gauge of whether that civilization is flourishing or collapsing. There's a lot of recent research on this concept; Jay Belsky calls it "Differential Susceptibility" and Thomas Boyce calls it the "Dandelion Orchid Spectrum". Children who are introverted, gifted and sensitive who grow up in high-quality, positive environments where proper care is taken to cultivate them, etc. they become the strongest, most healthy, fulfilled, successful, etc. people in all of society. But in failing collapsing civilizations, this same temperament ends up as the most broken, damaged, miserable people in society. And adverse life circumstances have vastly grown in the modern West, with the collapse of religion and the family, the child abuse that is public education, increasing violence, the increasing toxicity of everything we drink, eat and wear, etc. hence a lot of our most high-potential people become Gammas.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 03, 2019 3:55 PM  

@30 As I see it, it's the difference between seeking approval and earning respect. Respect is the coin of all successful human relationships, and a significant part of fatherhood is teaching kids, especially boys, to earn it (and give it when earned.) But girls, too, clearly benefit from grasping what respect means.

Acting to earn respect is apparently toxic male behavior, alongside indifference. Nothing boils hotter than a female recipient of indifference.

Blogger Nate73 December 03, 2019 4:07 PM  

I was struck the other day by watching a tv show that some men even have female mannerisms in their body language. And I don't just mean the lambdas either. Very unsettling.

Blogger Kat December 03, 2019 4:26 PM  

Here's a male status question I've found interesting: Who says grace? Is it the oldest male? The homeowner? The ranking church member (ie elder)? It might be a trivial aspect, but it's one I've observed with some interest ever since I was a kid.

Blogger OneWingedShark December 03, 2019 4:56 PM  

M.S. wrote:It's all of that and more. The well-being of a civilization's Introverts, intellectually gifted, highly sensitive people is a gauge of whether that civilization is flourishing or collapsing. There's a lot of recent research on this concept; Jay Belsky calls it "Differential Susceptibility" and Thomas Boyce calls it the "Dandelion Orchid Spectrum". Children who are introverted, gifted and sensitive who grow up in high-quality, positive environments where proper care is taken to cultivate them, etc. they become the strongest, most healthy, fulfilled, successful, etc. people in all of society. But in failing collapsing civilizations, this same temperament ends up as the most broken, damaged, miserable people in society. And adverse life circumstances have vastly grown in the modern West, with the collapse of religion and the family, the child abuse that is public education, increasing violence, the increasing toxicity of everything we drink, eat and wear, etc. hence a lot of our most high-potential people become Gammas.
Interesting.
I was going to mention the 2008 economic collapse, and how that's basically cut the hamstrings of the Millennial generation such that they're just now having any sort of recovery… and yet are held in disdain by the older generations ('slackers', 'unmotivated', 'entitled' because you reject unpaid internships, etc).

There was also the piece Vox posted a while back with economists pissed that Millennials don't want to move for jobs, especially when there's no sort of assurance that they'll keep employment. (See, there it is again! So entitled! These Millennials and their Food addiction! Soon we'll here about them wanting HOUSES too!)

dc.sunsets wrote:As I see it, it's the difference between seeking approval and earning respect. Respect is the coin of all successful human relationships, and a significant part of fatherhood is teaching kids, especially boys, to earn it (and give it when earned.)
This is something that's deeply troubling when looked at inter-generationally. Boomers have demanded respect from everyone, refusing to give it at all, and indeed belittling and denigrating those who did show them respect: like the current student-loan crisis when seen through the lens of every adult telling them that they need a college degree to get a [good] job, or the large number of men who haven't started a family, or the sheer spite we see against the men by our society (ie the "Man Up!" response which is not given in any sort of caring manner, but the derisive manner that strips them of dignity/worth).

Blogger HoosierHillbilly December 03, 2019 5:22 PM  

@34. Whoever the alpha asks to.

Blogger Dave December 03, 2019 5:39 PM  

This guy just couldn't stop talking about himself. It was unreal, I had never witnessed anyone so self-involved, especially when we're out for lunch treating the guy beside him whose birthday it is!

What is wrong with one or two of the more senior men taking the gamma aside and making it abundantly clear it wasn't his party and out of respect for the guest of honor, he would either change his behavior or dismiss himself? Ok, it's understandable it was just lunch and nobody wanted to cause a scene so everyone just let it go. However, what happened to lifting each other up? Does he even realize how his behavior is viewed by many others at the church?

Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

All of you are members or attendees of the same church including the women who have admitted they all try to avoid the guy. Is this a healthy situation for a church?

Blogger RobertDWood December 03, 2019 6:15 PM  

This is a good pair of insights to look for, thank you

Blogger Meng Greenleaf December 03, 2019 6:40 PM  

@ mrkai113

You may want to reread your own words. They make you sound like a crab in a bucket to me.

The hierarchy is social-sexual. I was asked to the prom by the homecoming queen, to give one of hundreds somewhat similar examples.

After recovering from having my air-supply cut off, I went back to the family BBQ and played a bit of baseball. It wasn't THAT big a deal.

The experience may have motivated me to join a martial art class (only ended up making it to brown belt, but I did the classes for about 3 years). Otherwise, it was just a unique experience for a 14 year old boy who (through no fault of his own) grew up with a single mother.

As for Alpha male? Sometimes I have that role. In and of itself Alpha isn't important to me. But it may be important for some things. Like starting a business or opening a school. The later of which I'm interested in.

Otherwise, I'm married. Being Alpha of my family is enough Alpha for me 😁

Blogger JamesB.BKK December 03, 2019 6:51 PM  

You're making him beak up with you? I'll take the over on disappointment.

Blogger JamesB.BKK December 03, 2019 6:53 PM  

Could be that he's just a dick though. Not enough info.

Blogger John Rockwell December 03, 2019 8:04 PM  

Wonder if there is any Gamma behavior in the bible. How does God deal with them?

Blogger Damelon Brinn December 03, 2019 9:04 PM  

What is wrong with one or two of the more senior men taking the gamma aside

Nothing, but they'd better understand what they're getting into and be prepared to do the necessary. The Gamma craves attention, positive or negative (demonstrated here regularly), so an attempt to reason with him can get you sucked into legalistic arguing over his behavior. If you're going to confront a Gamma, you have to be prepared to cause enough pain, emotional or physical, that he doesn't enjoy the attention.

Blogger Scuzzaman December 04, 2019 7:32 AM  

God says it is an abomination for a man to dress like a woman.

Good enough?

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