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Tuesday, February 25, 2020

No worries, it was destined to be

The following exchange with my old friend Jamsco amused me. Mostly because I was pretty sure we'd been over this before. Keep in mind we've known each other since we were children and he is one of the two early Selenoth readers, so we are pretty straightforward with each other.
VD: It's always easy to detect the inversionists. They cannot tell the truth because, knowingly or not, they serve the Father of Lies. Piper's words directly belie the words of Jesus Christ himself. That tells you everything you need to know about the man and his teachings.

JS: I suspect, Vox, that if you actually read Piper's devotional you'd (1) agree with 85% of it, and (2) see that the above description is whole inaccurate and deceptive.

VD: Every single thing of Piper's I've read to date has not only been materially wrong, but egregiously so to the point of being insulting to the intelligence. I still haven't forgotten how tornadoes are the murderous fingers of the Jesus Christ as he slays the innocent and the wicked alike as per God's perfect plan.

JS: I see you haven't forgotten it, nor did you learn it from him. He said nothing of the sort. Read it again. Confirmation bias is real.

VD: You claimed that Piper "said nothing of the sort", Jamsco. That may or may not be true. But he certainly WROTE it.

"Why would God reach down his hand and drag his fierce fingers across rural America, killing at least 38 people with 90 tornadoes in 12 states, and leaving some small towns with scarcely a building standing, including churches?

"God alone has the last say in where and how the wind blows. If a tornado twists at 175 miles an hour and stays on the ground like a massive lawnmower for 50 miles, God gave the command.

"Jesus rules the wind. The tornadoes were his.

"But before Jesus took any life in rural America, he gave his own on the rugged cross."

JS: I didn't know he'd written this. Obviously I agree with what he says here (and I think it's biblical), but you're correct - he wrote it.
Just to be fair to Jamsco, I will point out that the fact that I previously posted on the subject doesn't mean that he read that post. Also, I have not read the referenced devotional, and so it is possible that the description to which I reacted is inaccurate and deceptive. I tend to doubt it on the basis of every previous reading of his writings, but I admit that it is possible.

And no, I'm not going to bother to check, because I was neither created nor destined to take the man seriously. I am content to leave it up to you, gentle readers, to adjudicate the truth of the matter.

Labels:

93 Comments:

Blogger Azimus February 25, 2020 1:03 PM  

Bless you Jamsco for giving us an example of how normal, thinking men should react in the light of new information.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd February 25, 2020 1:10 PM  

I'm not going to bother reading Piper's stuff. Why should any of us investigate him further once we realize he consistently cucks up the message?

There are plenty of men who fairly consistently preach God's Word the way He wrote it. We don't need to peck like chickens for kernels of Truth among the scat from the cucks.

Anonymous Anonymous February 25, 2020 1:17 PM  

Jesus Christ did not even hit anyone. These Churchians are insane.

Blogger Pax_Romana February 25, 2020 1:20 PM  

I'm inclined to believe Paul when he calls the Devil the ruler of the world, but as I see it from Job, he is on a tight leash.

Blogger Rex Leroy King February 25, 2020 1:26 PM  

Loser in training wrote:Jesus Christ did not even hit anyone. These Churchians are insane.

Whipping isn't hitting?

Blogger Ominous Cowherd February 25, 2020 1:28 PM  

Rex Leroy King wrote:Loser in training wrote:Jesus Christ did not even hit anyone. These Churchians are insane.

Whipping isn't hitting?

Jesus wasn't nice, wasn't non-violent. Christians should be like Jesus.

Blogger artensoll February 25, 2020 1:31 PM  

FWIW Piper sets my creep-o-metre a-pinging. Always has. Not unlike Jordy le Meth, just not so violently.

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim February 25, 2020 1:32 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Anonymous February 25, 2020 1:35 PM  

"Whipping isn't hitting?"

Of course not. Monks are not allowed to hit anyone either, especially children. See the video "Hermits of our times":

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqEDhKKPl-o

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim February 25, 2020 1:35 PM  

Rex Leroy King wrote:Loser in training wrote:Jesus Christ did not even hit anyone. These Churchians are insane.

Whipping isn't hitting?


Of course not, he just waved the whips and spoke in a tone that really let those merchants know he was serious. That entire (30 acre) plot was cleared lickity-split.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPLVY_7yAhI "How Jesus Picked Fights"

Heavy/S

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim February 25, 2020 1:42 PM  

Douglas Wilson > John Piper

Piper is authorized by the Churchians, mainly through his association with The Gospel Coaltion, which is a heretical "ministry". He once wrote an article on how he specifically chose an African Child to adopt (favortism) for some kind of outward racial reprimand.

"On November 6, 1995, I wrote to Noel this paragraph as part of a long letter of joy over our adoption plan:

In adopting a black child we would embrace and affirm the value of personhood in God's image above racial distinctives. This is a crucial message for our day of cultural pride that may tend to minimize the utter uniqueness of humanity over against all other beings with a value as created in God's image that is infinitely more important than any racial or cultural trait. We would be saying that being a human person is so indescribably important that it should take priority over race and culture in governing what is good for a child." https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/talitha-the-person-who-is-adopted


You can tell who a person is often by the company they keep, but also by the enemies they maintain. Wilson induces the right kind of Churchian Consternation in this sphere, the way Vox does in the realm of thinkers/writes/cultural critics.

Blogger John Q Public February 25, 2020 1:46 PM  

So I guess you're not an Augustinian . . .

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim February 25, 2020 1:48 PM  

Loser in training wrote:"Whipping isn't hitting?"

Of course not. Monks are not allowed to hit anyone either, especially children. See the video "Hermits of our times":

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqEDhKKPl-o



As a token for your completion of training I offer you this classical piece of Italian art:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleansing_of_the_Temple#/media/File:Bernardino_Mei_(Italian_(Sienese)_-_Christ_Cleansing_the_Temple_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg

Blogger Jehu February 25, 2020 1:49 PM  

The temple market being 30 acres I think escapes most people. They probably think of it as like maybe a row of stalls at a farmer's market. 30 acres is humongous. It is like a moderate sized shopping mall. Jesus clearing all of that out is hardcore, as in cinematic action hero movie hardcore, maybe even going into anime territory. Imagine the various temple factions reaction to that.

Blogger Scott February 25, 2020 2:06 PM  

Jesus chased the merchants out of the temple with a whip. He also ordered for all of his enemies to be brought to him and executed.

@LoserInTraining

Blogger Noah B. February 25, 2020 2:25 PM  

"agree with 85% of it"

It doesn't take much cyanide to ruin a hamburger.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 25, 2020 2:25 PM  

I wasn't informed that Jesus was the prince of the power of the air.

Sure, the wind and waves obey, but even the fallen angels have to bend the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord at some point, so that's not necessarily saying much.

"It is like a moderate sized shopping mall."

Presumably the money changers would be clustered around the entrances, so likely less than that, like the size of a "small" Wal-Mart.

Blogger Dos Voltz February 25, 2020 2:29 PM  

If God wants to wipe out a people, He can use whatever method and tool He dang well pleases.

Frogs, locusts, famine. Rival tribes of killers. And sure, tornadoes, if He so chooses.

But this Piper guy has gone leaps ahead, and has declared that he KNOWS that God decided to use the Tornado Method (TM) to knowingly smite this finite number of particular sinners.

I'm no theologian, but ain't it kinda sinful maybe to presume that you know the mind and intent of God?

Blogger ar10308 February 25, 2020 2:32 PM  

@Sterling Pilgrim, The adoption of other brown children from other Nations is quite the Churchian virtue signal. If you are in the Church sphere, you'll likely have met families that have done this. It usually doesn't work out. Of family friends I had growing up, 3 Churchian families to me adopted children from Africa, China and most recently India.

In nearly each case it hasn't worked out. Especially when you consider how they forsake children in the region that are likely have parents who were involved in the Opioid Crisis. Adding a trashy White kid to their church pew isn't nearly as fashionable or outwardly virtuous.

Blogger James Dixon February 25, 2020 2:53 PM  

> Jesus rules the wind. The tornadoes were his.

And Jesus told people to build towns and cities in the middle of tornado alley. Right, sure thing.

IMO, God set the world up to largely run itself. He only intervenes when it's necessary to do so. Otherwise he lets us make our own decisions and deal with the consequences thereof.

The seacoasts care going to get hurricanes. California is going to get earthquakes. The midwest is going to get tornadoes. We know these things. We make our decisions and we deal with the results.

Blogger Ska_Boss February 25, 2020 3:03 PM  

If you want the truth of the matter, why not go directly to the source? Every man has biases and flaws laced into their opinions.

Time and again I see people looking outward for answers when they should be looking inward.

God speaks to the heart, not the mind.

Blogger Rex Leroy King February 25, 2020 3:04 PM  

Loser in Training, don't be a liar. You're on warning. Next offense and you're banned.

Blogger Timmy3 February 25, 2020 3:04 PM  

“see that the above description is whole inaccurate and deceptive“

“nor did you learn it from him. He said nothing of the sort.”

“I didn't know he'd written this. Obviously I agree with what he says here (and I think it's biblical), but you're correct - he wrote it.“

So? The description wasn’t deceptive and he agreed with it. I’m still trying to figure out what’s his problem. His knee jerk reaction was Vox was wrong, but his acceptance of the truth was magical wipeout of the original argument.

Blogger One of Us February 25, 2020 3:15 PM  

"When the trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?" Amos 3:6

Just to be clear, I'm not remotely a John Piper fan. But the Bible says what it says. The question is, do we really believe in God's omnipotence? If we truly believe that God is omnipotent, then we must believe that He is in control of all things. ALL things - births, deaths, storms, etc. If you really want to get into it, just read Romans 9.

Blogger Kevin February 25, 2020 3:26 PM  

When man sinned it broke the world. Earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, everything that has to do with death is because of mans sin. God isn't responsible for it. Adam chose the knowledge of good and evil for us.

Blogger VD February 25, 2020 3:30 PM  

The question is, do we really believe in God's omnipotence? If we truly believe that God is omnipotent, then we must believe that He is in control of all things.

No. Being all-powerful is not synonymous with being all-controlling. The ABILITY to make all men mindless puppets is not the same thing as DECIDING to utilize that ability. You are intrinsically limiting God's Will by assuming that He must act, that He has no ability to decide to act or not act.

Blogger The Cooler February 25, 2020 3:33 PM  

In a perfect world, all theological debates would be settled with Chess Boxing.

Blogger Scuzzaman February 25, 2020 3:35 PM  

I don't get why some species of Christians confuse allowing things to happen with ordering them to happen.

I've done some stupid and evil things in half a century, about half of that time as a Christian.

God allowed me to do all of it and yet live to repent of it - a grace for which I will be eternally grateful - but if you try to tell me that He *commanded* my sins? Well, that's where we part company.

Blogger Scott February 25, 2020 3:38 PM  

If God wanted to use a natural disaster to kill people He'd go out of His way to warn the righteous and claim credit for the death count.

Example: the flood.
Example: parting the Red Sea.

Tornadoes destroying trailer parks doesn't fit the pattern.

Blogger Daniel February 25, 2020 3:41 PM  

Is Jamsco on? You think that's Biblical?

Which Bible?

Blogger Steb February 25, 2020 3:45 PM  

Certainly God permitted the tornadoes, but it was the laws of physics that created them. He could have stopped them, but why would he?

I think there would probably have been tornadoes in Eden. But being in our unfallen state, we could have avoided being harmed by them.

God allows the world to continue according to its laws, and we suffer thanks to our fallen state. Allowed by God rather than willed by him.

Blogger Sheila4g February 25, 2020 3:56 PM  

@26 VD: "No. Being all-powerful is not synonymous with being all-controlling. The ABILITY to make all men mindless puppets is not the same thing as DECIDING to utilize that ability."

Thank you, Vox. Perfect and simple and sound. Yes, God could tell each Churchian when to use the bathroom and decide to punish them with a mentally retarded child, but that's not His typical pattern per the Bible. He set up the system, and He allows us our follies and transgressions. He could intervene in any way or at any time He chose. He does not usually do so, but when he does it is in blessing, not in punishment.

Blogger Long Live The West February 25, 2020 4:05 PM  

VD: "Being all-powerful is not synonymous with being all-controlling."

Exactly. God did I'm fact destroy Sodem and Gomorra, but that doesnt meant that every little thing in life is the direct result of God's hand.

See Job. Harm came to him, yet the Bible clearly tells us that it was the devil's hand behind it.

Blogger peacefulposter February 25, 2020 4:32 PM  

@26 - The ABILITY to make all men mindless puppets is not the same thing as DECIDING to utilize that ability.

There was an interesting theory about God being like a Game Designer. I think I read about it in a book somewhere.

Can't remember the title or the author. Some arrogant bald dude, I think.

Blogger Uncle_Ted February 25, 2020 4:39 PM  

If Piper's theology is right, God decreed away His own freedom when He could have chosen not to.

So now God is trapped in fate just like Zeus.

Blogger One of Us February 25, 2020 4:54 PM  

@VD, I see what you're saying, but, to continue with the tornado analogy, if God is all-knowing and all-powerful, Him choosing not to steer a storm away from a city or someone's house or car - is that not still Him being in control by allowing it to happen?

As for men being mindless puppets, well, don't we simply have to take God's Word as it comes? "The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will." Prov. 21:1

Blogger daedal February 25, 2020 5:04 PM  

"You are intrinsically limiting God's Will by assuming that He must act, that He has no ability to decide to act or not act."

Maybe so. But it is still ultimately by God's Will, or in accordance with God's Will, that anything happens. We certainly cannot say that the tornado happens AGAINST God's Will.

The problem with this kind of 'God causes natural disasters' is when we try to attribute motive. His Will is inscrutable beyond what is revealed.

Of course its gets more difficult when we talk of human 'free-will', as opposed to occurrences in the natural world.

Blogger P. Carroll February 25, 2020 5:04 PM  

What predisposes one to be vulnerable to the lure of preachers like Piper? Aside from lack of reading comprehension

Blogger Unknown February 25, 2020 5:05 PM  

This is a shining example of Vox being right yet again. Jamasco is a true friend.

Blogger Valtandor Nought February 25, 2020 5:20 PM  

One of Us wrote:"When the trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?" Amos 3:6

Assume that God is aware of everything that ever happened, is happening now, or will ever happen unless he acts to prevent it, and moreover is able to bring about, or prevent, any given outcome.

If so, anything that happens is "caused by" God, in the sense that at minimum he saw it coming and didn't stop it.

What that doesn't prove is God as ultimate micro-manager. We know that in general, the Universe behaves in certain ways that we call "the laws of physics." He is quite able to set those up and generally let things take their course, reserving the right to intervene as needed.

It's the same with human beings. God knows what buttons to push to get any particular person to behave in a particular way, and thus he can bring any person to accept Christ. It doesn't follow that the person has no will of his or her own, or that the decision to accept Christ is proof that the decider's will was nullified. Rather, the decider's will is perfected, brought into alignment with the will of God.

Blogger Gregory the Tall February 25, 2020 5:21 PM  

There is obviously no free will: God made me gain 12 kilos in one month. And he knew since before the beginning of time he would do it as soon as I had turned 29. And this plan had him chuckling over the aeons whilst he waited for it to become reality. Conclusion: In his eyes I must be really important.

Blogger Lurker February 25, 2020 5:53 PM  

Sounds like Calvinism.

Jesus rules the wind. The tornadoes were his.

Bull crap. This reminds me of the story of the deliverance of the guy with all the demons in the Gadarenes area. On the way there a powerful wind/storm rose up and hindered the apostles in going there at Christ's instruction hmmm... Why would Jesus tell them to cross the lake then contradict himself and send a powerful wind to hinder them from delivering that guy from his demons? Obviously the winds were of demonic origin. Luke 8:22-24. No, not all winds,storms etc.. are from God. But God does have the power to deal with them obviously which he showed by his example.


Blogger Servant February 25, 2020 5:54 PM  

This ice cream is only 15% shit.

I do agree God is sovereign over the winds though. It's not the only thing he said I've agreed with. There is a little Piper vignette in a shane and Shane video that is beautiful and true about suffering.

I suffered terribly at the hands of people who hated me. This suffering was brought down by my sin on my own head. It also saved me from taking the ticket. It was merciful, but I was in a deep spiral about it for years because it was unjust. I didn't see the good in it until I let go of the feeling of injustice and focused on what it was for. Focused on how God took what I meant for evil and what my persecutors meant for evil and turned it to his good.

Still growing too. Finally forgave them in the act of talking about them just now.

Piper is a huge cuck though. Look how he talks about marriage. If you've been pondering your next (not sure what to call it, expose? Takedown?) Whatever, but the skulls of the modern apostles would look really nice on your mantle. Piper has long winded explanations on why the Bible doesn't say what it plainly says, and all of them don't really Read the Whole Thing. Hebrews in particular dismisses all of churchianity.

Blogger Rob February 25, 2020 6:01 PM  

Vox do you have any living pastors or theologians you read regularly?

Blogger grandconjunct February 25, 2020 6:36 PM  

* “..That a person does what GOD ORDAINS FOR HIM TO DO EVEN IF IT INVOLVES EVIL.”----Piper, John. Spectacular Sins: And Their Global Purpose in the Glory of Christ (Wheaton: Crossway, 2008), pg. 24

*"Diseases, defects, disabilities, natural catastrophes, human atrocities — from the youngest infant to the oldest codger, from the vilest scoundrel to the sweetest saint — suffering is no respecter of persons" --The suffering of Christ and sovereignty of God sermon 2005--10-9-2005 --John piper.
and

“...God wills that what he hates come to pass”--John piper --Is God less glorious because he ordained that evil be ? sermon July 1 1998



* “So when I say that EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS --INCLUDING EVIL — IS ORDAINED BY an infinitely holy and all-wise GOD TO MAKE THE GLORY OF CHRIST SHINE MORE BRIGHTLY , I mean that, one way or the other, God sees to it that all things serve to glorify his Son.”---Piper, John. Spectacular Sins: And Their Global Purpose in the Glory of Christ (Wheaton: Crossway, 2008),pg. 44

* “...GOD WILLS THAT WHAT HE HATES COMES TO PASS” ”--John piper --July 1, 1998 Sermon entitled “ Is God less glorious because he ordained that evil be”


* “God brings about all things in accordance with his will…It isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory and his people’s good…This includes God’s having even brought about the Nazi’s brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child” Michael Talbot in book ( Suffering and the sovereignty of God, edited By John Piper. Crossway 2006 page.41-42).

*James White was asked, “When a child is raped, is God responsible and did He decree that rape?”
James White answered, “Yes, because if not then it’s meaningless and purposeless and though God knew it was going to happen he created it without a purpose… and God is responsible for the creation of despair… If He didn’t then that rape is an element of meaningless evil that has no purpose.”---interview / debate bible answer man.
* Here is the audio of white saying this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atQ-xTBPYVk


* “The uniform witness of Scripture is that THE EVILS OF THIS LIFE COME FROM GOD”. (John Frame "No other God, P & R Publishing 2001) pg. 140).

* God wills all things that come to pass…GOD DESIRED FOR MAN TO FALL INTO SIN. I am not accusing God of sinning; I AM SUGGESTING THAT GOD CREATED SIN.”---R.C. Sproul Jr. > Almighty over all (baker book house 1999) pg. 54

*Some people who do not wish to extend God’s power over evil things, and particularly over moral evils…THE BIBLE THEREFORE EXPLCITLY TEACHES THAT GOD CREATES SIN------Clark, Gordan. Predestination. (The Trinity Foundation), 1987. Pg. 18.

* GOD NOT ONLY FORESAW THE FALL OF THE FIRST MAN , AND IN HIM THE RUIN OF HIS POSTERITY ; BUT ALSO AT HIS OWN PLEASURE ARRANGED IT "” (The Institutes Book 3, Chapter 23, section 7, --John Calvin







Blogger Sterling Pilgrim February 25, 2020 6:36 PM  

I have seen this in the extreme. I am really hesitant to speak about a family that I don’t know personally and assume a virtue signal, but I am in close proximity to a family that adopted eight sibling from Africa. They are now a family of twelve, and they have a huge sticker in their vehicle that says “ Jones Dozen” and they did a story for the daily mail I believe.
Yep: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2674919/Meet-Jones-Dozen-Tennessee-couple-Brangelina-world-record-adoption-EIGHT-children-Sierra-Leone-orphanage.html

I don’t know their hearts, but their willingness to go public and blog and YouTube video about their virtue is very concerning.

Blogger Lazarus February 25, 2020 6:37 PM  

One of Us wrote:"When the trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?" Amos 3:6

Just to be clear, I'm not remotely a John Piper fan. But the Bible says what it says.


The Bible says what is says, but the Bible is not saying what you say it says.

The whole chapter is about a judgement being prophesized on a particular people, not every calamity ever.

Blogger grandconjunct February 25, 2020 6:43 PM  

* “..That a person does what GOD ORDAINS FOR HIM TO DO EVEN IF IT INVOLVES EVIL.”----Piper, John. Spectacular Sins: And Their Global Purpose in the Glory of Christ (Wheaton: Crossway, 2008), pg. 24

*"Diseases, defects, disabilities, natural catastrophes, human atrocities — from the youngest infant to the oldest codger, from the vilest scoundrel to the sweetest saint — suffering is no respecter of persons" --The suffering of Christ and sovereignty of God sermon 2005--10-9-2005 --John piper.
and

“...God wills that what he hates come to pass”--John piper --Is God less glorious because he ordained that evil be ? sermon July 1 1998



* “So when I say that EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS --INCLUDING EVIL — IS ORDAINED BY an infinitely holy and all-wise GOD TO MAKE THE GLORY OF CHRIST SHINE MORE BRIGHTLY , I mean that, one way or the other, God sees to it that all things serve to glorify his Son.”---Piper, John. Spectacular Sins: And Their Global Purpose in the Glory of Christ (Wheaton: Crossway, 2008),pg. 44

* “...GOD WILLS THAT WHAT HE HATES COMES TO PASS” ”--John piper --July 1, 1998 Sermon entitled “ Is God less glorious because he ordained that evil be”


* “God brings about all things in accordance with his will…It isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory and his people’s good…This includes God’s having even brought about the Nazi’s brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child” Michael Talbot in book ( Suffering and the sovereignty of God, edited By John Piper. Crossway 2006 page.41-42).

*James White was asked, “When a child is raped, is God responsible and did He decree that rape?”
James White answered, “Yes, because if not then it’s meaningless and purposeless and though God knew it was going to happen he created it without a purpose… and God is responsible for the creation of despair… If He didn’t then that rape is an element of meaningless evil that has no purpose.”---interview / debate bible answer man.
* Here is the audio of white saying this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atQ-xTBPYVk


* “The uniform witness of Scripture is that THE EVILS OF THIS LIFE COME FROM GOD”. (John Frame "No other God, P & R Publishing 2001) pg. 140).

* God wills all things that come to pass…GOD DESIRED FOR MAN TO FALL INTO SIN. I am not accusing God of sinning; I AM SUGGESTING THAT GOD CREATED SIN.”---R.C. Sproul Jr. > Almighty over all (baker book house 1999) pg. 54

*Some people who do not wish to extend God’s power over evil things, and particularly over moral evils…THE BIBLE THEREFORE EXPLCITLY TEACHES THAT GOD CREATES SIN------Clark, Gordan. Predestination. (The Trinity Foundation), 1987. Pg. 18.

* GOD NOT ONLY FORESAW THE FALL OF THE FIRST MAN , AND IN HIM THE RUIN OF HIS POSTERITY ; BUT ALSO AT HIS OWN PLEASURE ARRANGED IT "” (The Institutes Book 3, Chapter 23, section 7, --John Calvin





Blogger Unknown February 25, 2020 6:50 PM  

"I didn't 'punch' you, I just hit you."

Blogger grandconjunct February 25, 2020 7:09 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger grandconjunct February 25, 2020 7:11 PM  

God doesn't determine human evil choices and sins exhaustively as The John Calvinist interpretation of Amos 3 would entail , human depravity plus libertarian freewill is sufficient to get the sin done without Gods omnidetermining help , the bible is clear , John Calvinism is false.



1 Tim 4:4
For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

Jer 32:35
"They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

1 john 1:5
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.




Isa 30:1
"Woe to the rebellious children," declares the LORD, "Who execute a plan, but not Mine, And make an alliance, but not of My Spirit, In order to add sin to sin;

Blogger Silly but True February 25, 2020 7:41 PM  

“He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.” The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That’s enough!” he replied.”

New Churchian Bible:
Peter grabs one of the two swords and screams “Leroy Jenkins,” as he lops the ear off the nearest guard.

Jesus admonished his reckless disciple, screaming “Jesus H. Christ, Peter. I didn’t want you to actually use the swords I gave you.”

Blogger Nathan Hornok February 25, 2020 8:16 PM  

The argument over whether God allows natural evil, or directs it, is fruitless.

In Luke 13, Jesus explains that the accidental collapse of a tower (natural evil) that killed 18 people was not a special judgment on them because they were worse sinners that others, but it was allowed as a continued warning of God's impending judgment of all. So the question is not why God allows natural disasters to kill people, but why has God allowed this sinful world to continue as long as it has? Answer; God's patience and grace is giving us more time to repent. Furthermore, when one of God's own dies, it is not final death, but only a seed being cast to the grown so that it can sprout again in incorruptibility. And when God allows suffering to His own, it is so that we can walk in the path of our Lord and share in Christ's suffering.

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants February 25, 2020 9:07 PM  

You are much much too kind. These type of cucked out, virtue signaling white folks who BUY, not adopt, colored children in extremely sketchy 3rd world countries are some of the worst people alive.
Partially because they are dumb enough to believe buying foreign kids is something God would want them to do, partially because they don't do Jack shit for poor whites or poor white children in America because they're too busy digging Wells and buying negros in Africa than to work to make their own city, their on COUNTY a better place and partially because they get their rocks off by buying their "get out of racist jail for free" cards and appearing like untouchable saints to a bunch of OTHER loons who have drank heavily from the "diversity is our greatest strength" well.
Screw those people.

Blogger Jay Will February 25, 2020 9:15 PM  

You don't pray to God to put food on the table you pray to God to give you courage to face life so you can put food on the table. To be fully present even as the guillotine falls or you look into the face of your dead son.

The atheist has to turn away and let the hamzatters take the body. How can you look at a dead person and not go full despair?

The sadists enjoy testing the god people on this one. How far can I push him before he breaks.

Its the only super power so no surprise they said its not real. Then in the gap they filled it up with materialist dreams.

It's not very nice to take away something that could make people happy. Softer nicer people, they are the ones who turn black, that's why they pick on us. It doesn't work on the natural nasties.


Blogger Tomato bear February 25, 2020 9:48 PM  

These few lines is eye opening. Thanks Vox

Blogger bodenlose Schweinerei February 25, 2020 10:04 PM  

This ice cream is only 15% shit.

Precisely. How is "you'd agree with 85% of what he writes" any different from "at least he made the trains run on time"?

Blogger Didas Kalos February 25, 2020 10:20 PM  

But there is this one Scripture that admonishes us to "rightly divide the word of truth"

@oneofus

Blogger Kraemer February 25, 2020 10:21 PM  

There is a difference between God actively doing stuff and just permitting it. For instance, He actively forgives repenting sinners, but He also permitted them to sin in the first place. He also permits us to be tempted to doubt Him, btw

Blogger Didas Kalos February 25, 2020 10:24 PM  

@ THE Josey Wales
And then he rebuked the disciples for not doing it and letting him rest.

Blogger Didas Kalos February 25, 2020 10:27 PM  

@grand conjuct
No Mas! I had to stop reading. Nausea was setting in......
And some anger: and the sun has already set. So....

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 25, 2020 10:31 PM  

"Maybe so. But it is still ultimately by God's Will, or in accordance with God's Will, that anything happens."

You wicked viper. The Bible says that it is not God's will that any should perish, and yet perish many do. Good luck reconciling that. Permitting something to happen is not the same as causing it to happen, or even as wanting it to happen.

Blogger Yukichi Sensei February 25, 2020 10:42 PM  

Mystery is part of God. How can our minds contain Him?

He can give us free will and KNOW the choices we make, and they are still our fault. Is he powerful enough to do both? Why not?

Blogger Bibliotheca Servare February 25, 2020 10:53 PM  

@Silly but True

The exclamation point after "enough" was added in an effort to warp Christ's expression of satisfaction into one of frustration.

Modern churchians use that to "prove" that Christ was "really talking about" the *Bible* and the *Faith* not literal "swords" obviously, and to claim that he was *clearly* frustrated with the apostles for being too stupid to understand his actual meaning.

It's heresy, it's despicable, and the originators of it deserve a millstone around their necks.

A more honest translation is "That is sufficient." Or (as it was for generations) "That's enough."

TLDR:
The first quote is also from the Churchians' Bible, it's just more subtle. Indeed they only changed a single punctuation mark. But it's still a lie.

Jesus told them to -and meant for them to- buy swords. The exclamation point is a subtle attempt to sell a lie about that fact.

Blogger One of Us February 25, 2020 11:02 PM  

@51 One of the main tenets of Calvinism is that God is not the author of sin. Why believe that? Because it's what the Bible says:

"Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am being tempted by God,' for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one." James 1:13

Just because we don't understand how these things fit together doesn't make them untrue. It is the non-Calvinists who make the erroneous assumption that God's sovereignty means that he must be the author of sin. Again, just to be clear: this has nothing to do with John Piper, whom Calvin preceded by several centuries. It is simply what the Bible teaches.

Blogger James Lovebirch February 25, 2020 11:09 PM  

@36

IF the world is fallen, all men are mortal anyway and those men who are with God will participate in the resurrection, why should God protect anyone from natural disasters right now? But He can use natural disasters to draw more people unto Him too. We're not supposed to get attached to this world.

---

An idea on God knowing the future, if he knew with omniscient certainty what would men would do, they would not have free will. However, he can read the heart in the present and therefore accurately guage all men's trajectories and likely future choices. It's with that knowledge that he guides history and how he "knew" the priests would execute Jesus as one example

Blogger One of Us February 25, 2020 11:18 PM  

@47 What is it that you think I'm saying the Bible says? I didn't interpret it for you, I merely quoted it. It's part of a prophecy, but it reveals a general truth about God pertaining to the destruction of cities that many find uncomfortable and therefore seek to explain away. It says what it says.

Blogger One of Us February 25, 2020 11:24 PM  

@42 Why would Jesus cause a wind that would impede his plan to cross the sea? Well, that one's easy: to demonstrate his power over the wind and waves, of course! Like the time Jesus waits until Lazarus is dead and buried...and he tells the disciples he did it so they could witness his power to raise the dead! But of course we aren't always privy to his divine plans, which is why we must trust him - and his sovereignty over all things is the reason why we can!

Blogger Rex Leroy King February 25, 2020 11:25 PM  

One of Us wrote:@VD, I see what you're saying, but, to continue with the tornado analogy, if God is all-knowing and all-powerful, Him choosing not to steer a storm away from a city or someone's house or car - is that not still Him being in control by allowing it to happen?

As for men being mindless puppets, well, don't we simply have to take God's Word as it comes? "The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will." Prov. 21:1


Found the Jew.

Blogger Mile High Honey Bear February 25, 2020 11:35 PM  

"Jesus rules the wind. The tornadoes were his."

Well, Azure Amarinthine and James Dixon already called it earlier in the comment thread. This is _Blatant Inversion_ as we all know that SATAN is the Prince of the Power of the Air & this world is in a fallen state & has been given to Satan to rule. This is a Legal, Spiritual claim. Satan is the "God of this World".

Intended or not, Piper serves the Kingdom of Darkness and is either a willing or unwitting participant in this Blasphemy. Shameful.

Blogger Kraemer February 25, 2020 11:42 PM  

Wanting his theology to be true. People will spend a lot of their brainpower having their opinions appeased. Appealing to vanity is what definitely-not-on-meth Jordan Peterson does. Only on a different scale.

Blogger A guy in a dusty attic February 25, 2020 11:48 PM  

Has anyone heard of Derek Prince Ministries Nederland? (I'm unsure if it is appropriate to ask stuff like this here.) Is it a legitimate source for biblical analogy?

Blogger One Deplorable DT February 26, 2020 12:39 AM  

@54 - No worries, you were destined to find the Jew.

Blogger Kiwi February 26, 2020 12:54 AM  

Fun to discuss such topics with those you know, not so much with others.

The most well known religious man in NZ is self appointed apostle, Brian Tamaki. He publicly blamed the gays for the Christchurch earthquake. He's got the cause and effect!

Blogger Scuzzaman February 26, 2020 1:08 AM  

grandconjunct

So all this is how a churchian evades responsibility for their sins.

Disgusting.

Blogger Servant February 26, 2020 1:21 AM  

A tower collapse isn't evil, nor is a tornado. It is a consequence of sin that these things happen. And we are all deserving of a temporal death. How and when it comes is up to God. He calls us home or to judgement in his time "all the days ordained for me are numbered before they ever came to be"

I don't understand the appeal to Calvin myself. He was a politician. Seems like the kind of guy BB would call out for seeking to become that which he fought against. Also his fruit was the Presbyterian Church. PCUSA was taken over by the Rockefellers and the PCA is full first Church of churchianity. Keep sperging about John "I burn my enemies" Calvin though.

Blogger Azimus February 26, 2020 1:48 AM  

Servant:
"Piper has long winded explanations on why the Bible doesn't say what it plainly says"

Anytime I hear a guy say "the word used here should really be better translated as (that which supports my personal interpretational bias)", I just stop listening and start reading the Word. Sometimes I can see it, but usually its BS (bias support). Reformed guys like Piper and RC Sproll (no idea how to spell it) are like that. Its like listening to a guy read a dictionary - and its usually malarky to boot.

Blogger CarpeOro February 26, 2020 7:27 AM  

"It is the non-Calvinists who make the erroneous assumption that God's sovereignty means that he must be the author of sin."

Piper sounds closer to Calvin with the fore-ordained bit than what I have ever heard in non-Calvinist churches. That is ranging from high to low churches. I've never heard God was the author of evil. Either man or the Enemy.

Blogger Ingot9455 February 26, 2020 7:38 AM  

A lot of this could be resolved by doing a web search on, "Why do bad things happen to good people?"

Blogger Pontificus Maximus February 26, 2020 8:39 AM  

Kevin Thompson has a YT video titled “Why You Became a Calvinist” on his channel, Beyond The Fundamentals. I think it explains a lot. A good follow-up is “Calvinist Idealogical Possession”.

Lest one think that KT’s videos are just a pile of rhetorical sparring with Calvinists, they’re not. They are focused on proper truth-sensing, both inside and outside of Scripture. His videos on the proper interpretation of the Bible’s use of the terms “Predestination” and “Election” are classics.

Blogger Tars Tarkas February 26, 2020 10:07 AM  

God is not micromanaging the weather on an on-going basis and responsible for every droplet of rain and blow of the wind. He may or may not be responsible for the fact that it does rain sometimes is not the same as being responsible for each individual rain or wind event. If it were true, why are we not doing rain dances or making a burnt offering in the fields? Does He just not like the aesthetics?

Blogger Lurker February 26, 2020 10:40 AM  

@68 "Why would Jesus cause a wind that would impede his plan to cross the sea? Well, that one's easy: to demonstrate his power over the wind and waves, of course! Like the time Jesus waits until Lazarus is dead and buried...and he tells the disciples he did it so they could witness his power to raise the dead! But of course we aren't always privy to his divine plans, which is why we must trust him - and his sovereignty over all things is the reason why we can!"

Hopefully you forgot your sarc tag.

Blogger Taignobias February 26, 2020 10:47 AM  

I do believe that, when we are with the Father and Son forever, we will know how frequently he has acted in the world without our notice. It's not all miracles and plagues - many times it's subtle influences and light touches.

We know that he does restrain evil - recall the stories of Job and Babel. And we know that he does visit wrath on some in this life, as when he brought destruction to Israel. But beyond this, I am not able to say.

As to predestination and election, the only extra-biblical source that makes sense to me is the Bound Will concept of Luther. We are free to operate within the limits of our fallen nature, but not free to be holy and perfect as required. It is the work of God to forgive and sanctify, by grace and through faith, because that is not within our nature. But he observably does not do this for all, and no man merits this gift (for it is a gift); he chooses based on His will, according to His designs of which we know precious little.

Blogger Lurker February 26, 2020 11:04 AM  

@36"As for men being mindless puppets..."

That would be the Calvinists/churchians.

Blogger Servant February 26, 2020 11:43 AM  

@tars
Job 28:25-27
"When He imparted weight to the wind And meted out the waters by measure, When He set a limit for the rain And a course for the thunderbolt, Then He saw it and declared it; He established it and also searched it out.

Other things he claims to do is provide for every Sparrow. And if he told us to do rain dances we would. He didn't because rain dances are pagan. If we need rain, we pray for it.

Someone mentioned Luke thirteen. Right after the tower collapse is a parable. A man who grows fig trees (God) finds a fig tree still not producing fruit (person) and orders his servant (Jesus) to cut it down. The servant intercedes, saying to give it another year, and he'll watch after the tree. The master has the authority to cut down any tree any time. Job paints a pretty good story about the meaning of tragedy and how God could allow evil without taking part.

These conclusions I see in the comments come from your own understanding. Better to Read the Whole Thing.

Blogger Tars Tarkas February 26, 2020 1:24 PM  

Servant wrote:These conclusions I see in the comments come from your own understanding. Better to Read the Whole Thing.

The fact that God can interfere does not mean God is micromanaging the weather.

Furthermore, trying to explain every single weather event (and non-event) is enough to drive anyone insane.

If God were selectively rewarding and punishing men with weather on an ongoing basis, NYC would be in a constant state of bad weather with hundreds of thousands of weather related deaths every year. San Fransisco would be inundated with acid rain 24/7.

God is not smiting people with tornadoes.

Blogger Silly but True February 26, 2020 1:59 PM  

Thanks for advising on the revisions.

As for matter of fact, I’m unfamiliar with the exasperated-Jesus take on that passage, exclamation or not.

In win for traditional teaching, reinforcement of the recurring message “you will be provided what you’ll need” — literally meaning he intends to provide the literal swords for their literal use in the coming strife — has always been the understanding I’ve been presented.

But thanks.

Blogger One of Us February 26, 2020 2:51 PM  

@86 - Oh my goodness - your God is so small! Do you really think it would be difficult for Almighty God to control all of the weather, all of the time?

Blogger One of Us February 26, 2020 2:55 PM  

@69 and @73 - Hilarious, since I'm not one ounce Jewish. But I appreciate the ad hominem attack, guys - it's what people resort to when they don't have an argument.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd February 26, 2020 3:28 PM  

One of Us wrote:Do you really think it would be difficult for Almighty God to control all of the weather, all of the time?
Do you really think at all?

You have totally missed the point. As Vox said above, ``God could'' doesn't mean ``God does.'' Equally, ``God doesn't'' does not mean ``God couldn't.''

Blogger grandconjunct February 26, 2020 6:22 PM  

The darkside of the doctrines of limited grace.
1). Totally determined depravity
2). Unconditional damnation.
3). Limited grace.
4). Irresistible damnation.
5). Perseverance of the damned (Once damned always damned.)

Blogger daedal February 26, 2020 10:00 PM  

"You wicked viper. The Bible says that it is not God's will that any should perish, and yet perish many do. Good luck reconciling that. Permitting something to happen is not the same as causing it to happen, or even as wanting it to happen"

2 Peter 3:9 is usually interpreted as God not wishing anyone ultimate damnation. In accordance with what Vox says however, while He wishes for everyone to be saved, He will not FORCE anyone to be saved.

It has nothing to do with 'God not wanting anyone to physically die'. That is absurd, not to mention a blasphemous limitation of God's power to suggest that death exists outside His Will.

Blogger FrankNorman February 27, 2020 12:42 AM  

Based on my own observations, Calvinistic theology leads its adherents into a certain degree of doublethink.
on the one hand they will insist that everything that happens, including every human action, happens because it is ordained by God.

On the other hand they will loudly denounce all human choices and actions as evil, corrupt and sinful.

But on the gripping hand: if you point out to them that what they are saying logic remains that God has preordained and willed the very things that they say He condemns as sin... They will deny that that is what they said.

So which is it? Is God the author of all things including human sin? Or is God not the author of sin?

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