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Saturday, February 08, 2020

No, you should ALL be ashamed

Avalanche insists that no one should feel ashamed for being taken in by Jordan Peterson. I very much disagree.
"I am ashamed for liking Jordan Peterson"

Every semi-normal person feels this way after having been taken for a destructive ride by a sociopath. "How how HOW could I have been so blind, not seen him for what he was? I cannot ever trust myself again!"

But there is no shame in being 'used' by a master-user! That would like saying, "I've just learned to play golf -- but Jack Nicklaus just destroyed me on the links! It's because there must be something wrong with me!"

No, you were just WAY outclassed! Ol' Jordie is a (probably literally) insanely talented master at sociopathic manipulation of normal folks. {Raises a rueful hand:} He sure 'got' me!

Sociopaths are not normal, and normal people have no useful defenses against the first one they meet; and often not further ones if they're unfortunate enough to run into another.

Whenever you get 'down' on yourself for not seeing it, remind yourself you had a run-in with a tiger on the veldt -- and got away with with a mere financial scratch! GOOD for you!
The problem is that I told everyone what Jordan Peterson was the moment I started paying any attention to him. I saw through his act at first glance and immediately observed several points of evidence that strongly indicated he had a disordered mind and a deceptive character. Yet four out of five people WHO HAD FOLLOWED ME FOR YEARS reacted angrily and insisted that I had to be wrong, despite the fact that there was absolutely ZERO evidence to support their position. And by zero evidence, I mean none whatsoever. Even the most cursory reading of anything he had ever written, dating all the way back to college, was sufficient to cast doubt on the man. It was one of the strangest things I've observed in the history of the blog.

There is no intellectual defense for that kind of reaction. This is precisely why I say MPAI. Most people are idiots, by which I mean that they are primarily driven by what makes them feel good at the moment, which is another way to say that they are predominately ruled by rhetoric. That is just as true of Avalanche, and the majority of people here - albeit a smaller majority than the norm - as it is of society in general. An idiot, to me, is anyone who believes, contra all philosophy, science, and history, that the truth of the matter is, or even can be, determined on the basis of his feelings about it.

Even when Protagoras says "man is the measure of all things" he is not referring to any one individual man, much less that man's feelings at a particular point in the space-time continuum.

These things are what they are. But don't say there is no shame in them. It's not for the rhetorical to judge or absolve the rhetorical, it is for those who are less susceptible to rhetoric to judge them. There were massive quantities of evidence indicating that Jordan Peterson was a fraud, and yet very, very few of his fans placed any weight on any of that preponderance of evidence, simply because he made them feel good for one reason or another.

If you fell for Peterson, then you should be ashamed and you should admit it to yourself. You should explore the reasons why you did so and why you were susceptible to his con. And you should do so in order to prevent yourself from falling just as readily for the very next fraud to come along. In fact, I would even suggest that the desire to explain away one's feeling of shame is indicative of the very vulnerability that led to the feeling in the first place.

If human history is any guide, many of those who fell for Jordan Peterson will fall for the next person to make them feel similarly good about themselves. Because MPAI.

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176 Comments:

Blogger Chief_Tuscaloosa February 08, 2020 10:12 AM  

Jordan "Tiger on the Veldt" Peterson? I don't know what Avalanche is on, but it is DEFINITELY not meth.

Blogger Dan B February 08, 2020 10:13 AM  

Shame is a great motivator.

Blogger Tars Tarkas February 08, 2020 10:13 AM  

People should have been tipped of by Metokur. Mister Metokur saw right through Peterson pretty early on. It was this Metokur stream that showed a bunch of things I didn't know he was doing. He was charging $5 for some dumb personality test. This was probably the first time Metokur got a lot of negative feedback. That was why he did the video. He had been calling Peterson out on Twitter and all the usual suspects were white knighting for their man, Peterson. He was one of the first, if not the first right leaning guy to really call out Peterson in a big way. All of the other shills were pushing him and paying for him to be on their dumb shows.

Blogger Newscaper312 February 08, 2020 10:15 AM  

Hey Vox, at least we dont have to worry you're trying to give warm and fuzzies to take advantage of us!

Blogger Servant February 08, 2020 10:22 AM  

Not sure he's a sociopath. But avalanche, the best way to be not taken in by strangers on the internet is to ask your husband if they are trustworthy. That's dead simple.

Other defenses include reading your Bible, comparing what you hear people say to it's words. Vox did this the other day. Jesus came not to bring peace but the sword, so people who say can't we all just get along at any price, not to be trusted. Easy. Avalanche have your husband read it to you. It's his job.

Blogger VFM #7634 February 08, 2020 10:25 AM  

Exactly how I feel about all Catholics (and ex-Catholics, heh) who ardently defend Vatican II and the validity of the associated antipopes.

Blogger Gregory the Tall February 08, 2020 10:25 AM  

Shame is not a social construct. Neither is guilt. Shame is good for you! Just like feeling guilty about something! How else can you realize you are not God, but only human, learn from your mistakes and hopefully make fewer of them in the future?!

Blogger Harris February 08, 2020 10:31 AM  

I did not pay much attention to Peterson. What I did see when I watched a couple of youtube videos was a guy driving leftists crazy, and a message to young men to be responsible for themselves, and stop being passive about their lives. Admittedly, that was enough for me to like him. Between the notion that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", and my own frustration with a few Male relatives who refused to get aggressive about directing their own lives, I liked the fact that someone prominent was saying things to prod the passive, and inflame leftists.

I was initially confused why you were going after him so hard. I understand now that most of it was a front. Maybe Peterson recognized some things correctly, but had bad prescriptions for solutions. Quite clearly, it is apparent that the weakness he was calling out in others is prevalent in his own life.

Rather than anger, I find it sad he has turned out to be such an empty vessel.

Since I obviously don't have a "following" online, there was no reason for me try to dig deeper into Peterson. And since you do have a platform, perhaps you felt a responsibility others don't to pursue Peterson.

Whatever the case is, I'm not that disappointed in Peterson, because I never invested that much thought into him. I think there are a lot of people like me that superficially liked him for the same reasons I did.

You deserve to take a victory lap. But at the same time, it would be nice if someone out there could achieve the same prominence as Peterson who would inspire young men to act as men, without having the internal inconsistency or fragility of Peterson. There is a longing for more voices standing up to feminism, and for a while Peterson was that...despite his now obvious flaws.

Blogger Scuzzaman February 08, 2020 10:32 AM  

I’m ashamed to say I paid for his book.

I don’t recall if it was before you told us about him but it doesn’t matter: I didn’t see for myself what he is. That’s undeniable and I’m grateful for the lesson. It’s made me more cautious.

Blogger Wayne February 08, 2020 10:32 AM  

JP never made me feel anything. I tried following along with some of his recorded lectures but never could make sense out of them. As it turns out I wasn't supposed to.

Blogger Taignobias February 08, 2020 10:34 AM  

I let myself be taken in the hype. I saw his famous public spectacles, heard YouTubers I liked praise him, and thus assumed he was a good.

At the time, I also had some respect for the Littlest Chickenhawk and believed Conservatives were trying to conserve anything. I was not yet aware how surrounded I was by liars and useful idiots. I was not willing to see the evil for what it was.

Blogger Dave February 08, 2020 10:34 AM  

And yet four out of five people WHO HAD FOLLOWED ME FOR YEARS reacted angrily and insisted that I had to be wrong, despite the fact that there was absolutely ZERO evidence to support their position.

This still shocks the hell out of me. I do believe it when you say many of those who fell for Jordan Peterson will fall for the next person to make them feel similarly good about themselves. And that's it in a nutshell; people wanted to believe he validated their beliefs.

Blogger Gregory the Tall February 08, 2020 10:44 AM  

My exposure to Peterson went like this:
1. Listened to an interview of his about the gender nonsense. Good that a professor speaks out against this, I thought, and he made quite a good case as far as I remember.
2. Listened to a Molyneux interview with him. Not very interesting, but not disturbing, either.
3. Tried to listen to one of his bible lectures, but quickly gave up because I found it somehow unimpressive and confused. I think this could have been a good moment to say to myself: What is this guy doing to the bible? He cannot have good intentions if he misleads people with regard to such an important subject. And I feel somewhat ashamed that this thought never rose to my mind at the time.
4. Then along came Vox and quickly destroyed the remaining appreciation I had for Peterson. Thank you, sir!

Blogger James Dixon February 08, 2020 10:45 AM  

Jordan Peterson never claimed to be on the right. He always claimed to be a leftist who merely thought they had gone too far (by which he actually meant too fast). He never even opposed the use of preferred gender pronouns. He merely opposed them being enforced by law. He stated this several times, in his own words. All you had to do was read them.

Blogger The Depolrable Podunk Ken Ramsey February 08, 2020 10:58 AM  

The first I heard of Peterson was that BBC interview when he "destroyed" that BBC woman. That was very good, actually, I came away very intrigued by Peterson and wanting to know more. So I turned to "Maps of Meaning".

That's where I ran into his Bafflegab, as Vox calls it, or Word Salad. Yuck. And he lost me. Bafflegab is a big, big, tell. You may want to adopt it as a filter. If somebody cannot communicate in plain, straightforward language then in the best case he needs to go back and work on his ideas. But you never get the best case.

Almost always, when you are dealing with Bafflegab you're dealing with a charlatan.

Blogger DonReynolds February 08, 2020 11:04 AM  

Vox....I hope you noticed which 4 out of 5 that have followed you for years here, who reacted angrily. More importantly, which 1 out of 5 who agreed with you all along, regarding Mr. Jordan, especially those who arrived at the same estimate independently.

Blogger Fozzy Bear February 08, 2020 11:14 AM  

My theory is that the reason Jordie is in an induced coma in Russia is that Russia has no extradition treaties with the US or Canada, and he is waiting out a statute of limitations on prescription fraud for upping his own dosage last April. If he returns to public life this summer, I'll take that as confirmation.

Blogger Warunicorn February 08, 2020 11:18 AM  

I actually had no idea who Peterson is. I only would hear his name in passing until Vox pointed him out. Goes to show how naive I can be.

Blogger Long Live The West February 08, 2020 11:22 AM  

So blunt.
Yet so true.
This is why I come here.

I believe it was Men Of the West that had an article entitled 'Weakness is Not a Virtue'. We must not rationalize away our failures, we should not be haunted by them. Rather we should learn from them and overcome the next challenge with the newly aquired knowledge and experience.

Jordan Peterson couldn't even give an honest answer on abortion. Yet somehow he's going to help you become more confident in life?

We make the choices today that guide how we live tomorrow. Seek justice, love mercy, walk humbly with our God. You should instantly be wary of taking spiritual/mental advice from anyone who rejects God.

Blogger Zaklog the Great February 08, 2020 11:24 AM  

I followed Peterson for a while & liked him. When VD said the guy has some serious problems, though, I didn’t say, “No way! You’ve no idea what you’re talking about.” I believe my reaction was, “Oh no. This is going to hurt.”

So yeah, I was taken in, and that’s a problem. I also listened when people started pointing out the warning signs.

Blogger VD February 08, 2020 11:25 AM  

But at the same time, it would be nice if someone out there could achieve the same prominence as Peterson who would inspire young men to act as men, without having the internal inconsistency or fragility of Peterson.

That will never happen. Peterson's popularity was manufactured in exactly the same way that Billie Eilish's popularity and Kim Kardashian's popularlity is manufactured. They are simply different products with different products for different audiences.

I hope you noticed which 4 out of 5 that have followed you for years here, who reacted angrily.

I didn't pay any attention at all. It didn't bother me in the slightest, although I was surprised by the ratio. I would have expected it to be the other way around. The core problem is that for all the average individual's fascination with himself, very few are capable of meta self-analysis. But it is important to be able to ask yourself "why do I like this person?" and "why do I feel inclined to defend him?"

If Peterson didn't have a PhD and Harvard-related credentials, virtually none of his champions on the Right would have paid him the slightest attention. That "standing up to SJWs", which I strongly suspect was prearranged, was literally nothing compared to what scores of others had already done.

Blogger Stilicho February 08, 2020 11:28 AM  

Anyone who heard the bafflegarb and projected their own thoughts and feelings onto it should be ashamed. Now dont get fooled again. Shame is a useful motivator.

Blogger SciVo February 08, 2020 11:29 AM  

The problem is that I told everyone what Jordan Peterson was the moment I started paying any attention to him. I saw through his act at first glance and immediately observed several points of evidence that strongly indicated he had a disordered mind and a deceptive character. And yet four out of five people WHO HAD FOLLOWED ME FOR YEARS reacted angrily and insisted that I had to be wrong, despite the fact that there was absolutely ZERO evidence to support their position.

Intellectual honesty is intellectual humility. No one knows everything. And since you have demonstrated that you have a colder intellect, I usually shut up and listen.

We all know Avalanche and expect her "reasoning" to be feminine and tease her about it, because she should know better by now.

So men have no excuse for getting their hackles up, but Avalanche is entirely correct for her sex, because male sociopaths have a Darwinian advantage.

But there is no excuse for guys like the one whose girlfriend rejected him for crying at a Peterson talk. That is a correct response, and he is just a Darwinian failure.

Blogger Laconic February 08, 2020 11:30 AM  

And what about vox or Owen??? Are they not exactly what you're looking for? More will come from their followers.

Blogger Baseball Savant February 08, 2020 11:33 AM  

I remember when Peterson was getting massive traction on Twitter within the red pill community and the self-help guru community people. Maybe it's because I've been reading Vox since he started at WND, but I commented to my wife, "When Vox gets a hold of this guy it's going to be brutal."

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 08, 2020 11:34 AM  

"But there is no shame in being 'used' by a master-user!"

Sociopaths are broken, but the only reason they can use you is that you are too.

"Sociopaths are not normal, and normal people have no useful defenses against the first one they meet"

Sure they do. Merciless, brutal honesty. The first thing they'll try on you is compliments you don't deserve. If you can't recognize those, you're any manipulators' toy.

Blogger Dole February 08, 2020 11:38 AM  

I can not recall what the exact Vox prediction were when investigating Peterson. But boy does it seem like things got even worse than predicted, even faster than predicted.

Blogger VD February 08, 2020 11:39 AM  

And since you do have a platform, perhaps you felt a responsibility others don't to pursue Peterson.

No, his followers just irritated me. And after that, I couldn't believe how many people - smart people - were being taken in by such an obvious charlatan.

To quote Rebel, YOU WANT BAMA?

Blogger Lazarus February 08, 2020 11:44 AM  

When people insisted on getting Vox to pay attention to Peterson I was thinking "You really don't want to be doing that".

Blogger Akulkis February 08, 2020 11:46 AM  

This is one reason why I pound in identifying BPD people... Once you get the hang of recognizing BPD, it can you save a world of pain and other, worse problems.

Blogger Dave February 08, 2020 11:49 AM  

I have appreciated Vox's analytical approach to most things ever since I first read him on WND. It has become even more and more refreshing as almost everything is now about feelz.

Blogger HouellebecqGurl February 08, 2020 11:50 AM  

Until the Metokur video, my only experience with Peterson was two short clips of him from his college lectures, which seemed ok, if bland & generic.
After that video I dug into YT and was like, "Holy snot, this is a real problem." But, I didn't see him as nuts, I saw him as a genuine huckster.
Vox helped me see he was both a huckster & mentally ill.

Blogger The Cooler February 08, 2020 11:59 AM  

Peterson is not a sociopath. He feels too much.

He is far more likely a lower-order histrionic comorbid with other hexes that make his primary issue etiologically complicated, thus presenting several of Millon's histrionic subtypes.

TL;DR: Obvious Moonbat is Obvious; and yes, y'all should be at least embarrassed.

Blogger Emmett Fitz-Hume February 08, 2020 11:59 AM  

@26

In addition to what you said about honesty, they also rely on their victim's manners, for lack of a better term. Sociopaths and Con artists rely on their victims desire to be polite and civilized, or at least to be seen that way.

I've lost track of the number of people who I have seen victimized who could have stopped it all by saying, "No. Leave me alone." or "I don't want to have anything to do with you."

But for whatever reason, they have been trained or encouraged to be nice and eschew your brutal honesty. So they politely lie. To their dismay.

Blogger Avalanche February 08, 2020 11:59 AM  

@5 "Avalanche have your husband read it to you. It's his job."

He died in 2011. I'm on my own, trying to learn from the Dark Lord and his commenters...

Blogger David Ray Milton February 08, 2020 12:00 PM  

Seriously asking, did Jordy make people feel good about themselves? From my reading of him he tried to make people more comfortable in their despair. But I guess if the bar is set low enough you could call his message one of hope.

I admit I was intrigued by Peterson when seeing his various YouTube “highlights.” So, I bought Jordy’s second book out of curiosity and quit it halfway through. I also quit watching his MOM lectures halfway through. It was clear to me that he was talking in circles and making shit up as he went along, especially when he brought up the Bible.

It was actually one of the catalysts that brought me back to Christ as I tired of reading and being supremely disappointed in sages whom claimed to have found a path to meaning away from religion. All liars. Remember, if they’re not with Him then they’re against Him. And Yes, all of them.

Blogger Robert Browning February 08, 2020 12:00 PM  

You can see very good. It is a gift to see inside men's souls.

Blogger Servant February 08, 2020 12:01 PM  

Paradoxical reaction. Extremely rare. Vox and Owen called meth, confirmed meth

Blogger Doktor Jeep February 08, 2020 12:04 PM  

Peterson's quick rise in an environment so controlled made me suspicious but beyond that I didn't think much about him. I found his videos hard to watch because they were long for no reason. On the job and on the range I get limited time to train people so that which is said must be effective and get the point across with as few words or explanation as possible. Pretense is avpided. So when someone does the opposite I find it excruciating to watch.
Peterson's dreams though: that's a sick man.
Overall, my philosophy is that nobody gets to be The Man so to speak unless the little man behind the curtain says so, and the little man is globohomo. Every celebrity is vetted and with social media being what it is, it's possible to go as far back as childhood to seek out the right person.

Blogger Vachilles February 08, 2020 12:08 PM  

I was tricked because of the gender pronouns and him exposing me to Christianity through his obscure lectures. Although as time went on, It seemed like he was trying to get out of the spotlight. You and Owen hit the nail on the head on exposing him.

Blogger Stephen February 08, 2020 12:08 PM  

Any thoughts on Lindsay Shepherd?
https://infogalactic.com/info/Lindsay_Shepherd#Meeting

Blogger Ingemar February 08, 2020 12:12 PM  

I admit I listened to quite a bit of his material but at least I never gave him a cent.

The fact that he claims to have studied the Scriptures intensely but couldn't bring himself to belief (or even answer "Do you believe in God") meant that I couldn't support him.

Blogger Shimshon February 08, 2020 12:17 PM  

Today, they'll just say your jealous of his breakdown.

I guess not being taken in is now prima facie evidence for being in the non-MPAI set (whatever that means). Yesterday, I would have thought a pretty sad bar, but there you go.

Seriously, people. Even if you were taken in by him when you first encountered him, why wasn't it enough to learn about the man that he entertained sick fantasies of sex with grandmothers (and the like), and further, believed it appropriate to openly share the same with his audience, and not to condemn it?

Vox, in the distant future, when your literary corpus is studied in depth in Vox Day Studies programs at all the finest universities, Jordanetics will be the one head-scratcher among an impressive body of work. What, they will wonder, so drove Vox to devote an entire book to debunking a man no one will ever have heard of, if not for your book. Was he a sort of Moby Dick figure? Was it all in his head?

Blogger Tars Tarkas February 08, 2020 12:17 PM  

VD wrote:That will never happen. Peterson's popularity was manufactured in exactly the same way that Billie Eilish's popularity and Kim Kardashian's popularlity is manufactured.

Kim Kardashian is absolutely EVIL. She has gotten 2 cold blooded murderers out of prison so far and is now working to get a guy out of prison who buried hatchets into the heads of 3 children, one of whom survived and laid next to his dead friend, mother, father and sister for 11 hours just staring at them while holding his fingers in the hole in his created by a hatchet. This was after breaking out of 2 different prisons in 2 different states! The guy's name is Kevin Cooper and he dindu nuffin.
ALL of it is framed through race. The Mudshark is one of the most destructive creatures in all of creation.

Blogger MichaelJMaier February 08, 2020 12:18 PM  

I liked watching JP interviewed by the annoying Brit bitch. Iwatched other videos online. And he does somehow cast a spell that makes you think you're wrong for not getting his brilliant points. But there really is no there there.

Vox, when you started on him, I was shocked by your vehemence, but in two decades, I've don't think I've ever seen your aim put onto the wrong target yet.

Blogger Avalanche February 08, 2020 12:19 PM  

@7 "Shame is not a social construct. Neither is guilt. Shame is good for you!"

I think I was ... I FEEL I was writing a sort-of self-defense, here and earlier. I need to 'wait three days.'

VD: "you should be ashamed and you should admit it to yourself. You should explore the reasons why you did so and why you were susceptible to his con."

Once I finally GOT it, I was ashamed to have been taken in for so long by Jordie, and ashamed of fighting Vox about it for so long. Feelings always interfere in "look at the evidence logically." Esp. for women. Sorry, Vox, for making you work so hard to knock sense.

And I do admit my shame -- and my rueful self-exasperation -- esp. when trying to extricate some other MPAI from the falsity that is Jordie. I am on guard now for the susceptibility I have about that 'but he's rescuing young men'! Vox and Owen are doing it a million times better! And especially when one learns and compares to WHERE Jordie was -- and Vox and Owen ARE -- 'rescuing' our young men!

Blogger Mother Country February 08, 2020 12:19 PM  

#5 Servant said: But avalanche, the best way to be not taken in by strangers on the internet is to ask your husband if they are trustworthy. That's dead simple.

I think Avalanche is a widow, and her husband was a professor whom she respected greatly. I read her blog. So she might have been especially vulnerable to Peterson's bafflegarb.

Blogger JackMurphyLive February 08, 2020 12:22 PM  

Jordan's appeal and value at the beginning was that he seemed to be a link from fringe ideas to the mainstream. There was a guy reflecting arguments in mainstream news and major alt media sites I had only heard in niche corners of the internet.

Everything after that seems clouded by money, greed, fame, conceit, etc.

Blogger peacefulposter February 08, 2020 12:23 PM  

Jordanetics must be receiving a nice bump in book sales!

A bump from Russia with love.

Blogger kurt9 February 08, 2020 12:24 PM  

I never paid much attention to JP. I just heard him in the backgroud during his 15 minutes of fame. What tipped me off about him was when he called on Kavanaugh to resign from SCOTUS immediately following his confirmation based on the entirely bogus accusations from that Ford woman. I wrote JP off entirely following that incident. It was shortly thereafter that he began to fall apart emotionally.

Blogger Capital6 February 08, 2020 12:25 PM  

Once the baleful eye of the SDL fell upon Jordan it was over. That relentless pursuit of the truth put Vox's word squarely above anything Jordan or his followers could produce. I know exactly why I got roped into his book. Vox's destruction of Petersen and realizing I didn't remember a damn thing from the book a month later sealed it.

Self meta analysis is tough. It dredges up truths you'd rather keep bruried.

Blogger SciVo February 08, 2020 12:28 PM  

Dole wrote:I can not recall what the exact Vox prediction were when investigating Peterson. But boy does it seem like things got even worse than predicted, even faster than predicted.

It's kind of confusing, because we're only now learning that he was basically institutionalized eight months ago. So it was actually fast, but our learning about it was slow.

Akulkis wrote:This is one reason why I pound in identifying BPD people... Once you get the hang of recognizing BPD, it can you save a world of pain and other, worse problems.

Really, Cluster B in general. You need to avoid them all, for similar (if slightly different) reasons.

Blogger Xellos February 08, 2020 12:29 PM  

If you're used by a master-user, should you be ashamed? Maybe, maybe not. However, Jordy isn't a master by any measure. Just a user. Falling for his act is fucking embarassing.

Blogger tdcommenter February 08, 2020 12:30 PM  

I was briefly tricked by Jordan Peterson after that BBC interview, but my eyes were opened after reading a quarter of Vox's book on him, Ship of Fools which sheds light on the perils of relying on evolutionary biology in human studies, and videos on approved opposition.

Blogger Fargoth February 08, 2020 12:32 PM  

At least Crowley was up front about being a drug-guzzling, demon-infatuated sodomite.

Blogger RedJack February 08, 2020 12:33 PM  

Azure Amaranthine wrote:"But there is no shame in being 'used' by a master-user!"

Sociopaths are broken, but the only reason they can use you is that you are too.

"Sociopaths are not normal, and normal people have no useful defenses against the first one they meet"

Sure they do. Merciless, brutal honesty. The first thing they'll try on you is compliments you don't deserve. If you can't recognize those, you're any manipulators' toy.


A mentor once told me "If the most beautiful girl in the room starts flirting with you, she is after something." Same with compliments that are unearned. Be aware of your worth, and be wary of compliments.

Or as my grandfather once told me "Everyone is evil. Never forget that".

Blogger Unknown February 08, 2020 12:34 PM  

I was briefly taken in by the short clips of Jordan Peterson "fighting back" against the lunacy in the universities. Just having graduated from a long stint in college, I was hungry for anything that went against the "f*** white people" and "f*** Western Civilization" mantras. However, after watching some of his longer form lectures, I realized his points and thinking were shallow, simple, and repetitive, made to look profound through unnecessarily complex language. Very, very common in the academic world. He was just like all the other middling professors.

The more I saw of him, the less I thought of him. The more mainstream attention he got, the less I trusted him. Something was off about the whole rise of Jordan Peterson. By the time the intellectual dark web came along, he and everyone associated with the intellectual dark web induced eye rolls.

Unaware of this blog and having only the foggiest recognition of Vox, I read Jordanetics. Jordanetics brought clarity to all the warning signs I had been seeing. I never attributed the degree of malice and deception to Peterson and the intellectual dark web that Jordanetics made clear I should have. Gatekeepers and their tactics suddenly became crystal clear, beyond just Peterson and the intellectual dark web.

Thanks, Vox.

Blogger JACIII February 08, 2020 12:35 PM  

VD,
You like umbrella drinks, dance music, soccer, and Gorilla Mindset. No one is going to credit your take without taking a good hard look for themselves first. You get "Need to take a second look at" just because people know you put a lot of thought into a subject before writing about it. But that's all.

Blogger ToTheRightRon February 08, 2020 12:40 PM  

Even though I had already set JP and his teaching aside by the time you focused on him, the truth still stung when you laid it all out. Don't make excuses for poor judgement guys, own it and learn. Using his "authority" to teach the bible is where he lost me. Up until then I foolishly gave him a pass.

Blogger SirHamster February 08, 2020 12:43 PM  

Ingemar wrote:The fact that he claims to have studied the Scriptures intensely but couldn't bring himself to belief (or even answer "Do you believe in God") meant that I couldn't support him.
The fact that he claims to be a Christian but won't proclaim Jesus is Lord makes him a lying fake.

His attempts to start a new religion make him a false prophet.

As to the OP, I got taken in with JBP and promoted his videos for a time. That is a failure of discernment I should be ashamed of. Emotional pain etches the lesson into your heart.

Blogger VD February 08, 2020 12:46 PM  

No one is going to credit your take without taking a good hard look for themselves first.

The point is that all of you did take "a good hard look for yourselves first". And then you said I was wrong.

More importantly, you clearly don't understand the difference between my personal likes and dislikes and what I tell you is true on the basis of the evidence. That makes you the poster child for MPAI here.


Blogger Akulkis February 08, 2020 12:47 PM  

"
But for whatever reason, they have been trained or encouraged to be nice and eschew your brutal honesty. So they politely lie. To their dismay."

Churchianity
Desegregation
Destruction of Freedom of association (and non-association)
And "bake my gay cake!"

Blogger bramley says "Enoch was right" February 08, 2020 12:50 PM  

Same for me as Ingemar. I fell for the internet dad thing. But by the time his book was on the presses i had watched the uploads of his Harvard lectures from the 90s where he looks like Seinfeld, and where his students are obviously smarter than him and come up with far more incisive observations on the rambling syncretism he's fumbling about with in them. That wised me up to his inadequacies, then the Sam Harris debacle-bate, then the book and the inability to be honest or present logical rebuttals: "i can't do it" (should be obvious what i'm referring to here). Then i read what Vox had to say, and i haven't paid any attention to him since.

Blogger Calvin809 February 08, 2020 12:51 PM  

I listened to JP quite a bit and although he did stumble on some truth his fundamental views on religion and Christianity reminded me of the theological liberals I grew up with and studied in the ELCA and their college I went to. What he was saying wasn't new.

Blogger NewTunesForOldLogos February 08, 2020 12:53 PM  

Reading this blog is a constant lesson in humility. Those are hard to come by in the land of self-esteem and participation trophies.

Blogger Manuel February 08, 2020 12:54 PM  

I bought his book (shame on me) and read it right before I read Vox's take downs and then Jordanetics. Initially I did not think Vox wrong, but was conflicted, "how can 2 smart people be so opposed?" Jordanetics and re-watching some of JP's Biblical lectures helped clear that up. His lectures show him to be one of the least read "intellectuals" ever. He acts constantly surprised by what Genesis says about God and humanity, as if he had never read anything else beyond Jung (which is true.)

Blogger L February 08, 2020 12:55 PM  

Vox has been my intellectual starting point for at least ten years and I'm grateful that he'd investigated Peterson before I wasted time reading or listening to the guy.

Blogger Bernard Brandt February 08, 2020 1:20 PM  

For my part, I was never all that into JP to begin with. I liked the psychology lectures, and enjoyed his process of mining the gold out of the dross of most psychology 'research'.

Couldn't be bothered to buy any of his books. Used Le Wik to read the summary of his Twelve Rules, and thought, "Meh: nice self help book he's got there." Ditto with going to the Long Beach Convention Center to hear him. YouTube is much cheaper.

Speaking of YouTube, while I enjoyed his debates with Stephen Fry and Slavoj Žižek, I soon realized that they both were smarter than he was.

Ultimately, I came to agree with Taleb's assessment, that JP is a charlatan.

Still and all, JP remains an entertaining charlatan for me. Kinda like the Wizard of Oz.

Blogger ASpanishCatholic February 08, 2020 1:32 PM  

I fell for JBP lies, I'm ashamed. Thank's to Owen, when the Kavanaugh thing went spiral, I finally could open my eyes. I wasn't following this blog by then, but now I know better :). I think what got me fooled was his sacrificial lamb kind of stand, thought the little man was committing full self oblivion in pursue of truth... what I said, I'm ashamed.

Blogger carnaby February 08, 2020 1:36 PM  

In the case of Jordan Peterson, and unlike Michael Jordan who famously succeeded because he failed, I succeeded because I did not fail. Having neither the time nor the energy to look into the man, and finding his public sobbing off-putting, I simply ignored him.

Blogger Fuzzums Wuzzums February 08, 2020 1:50 PM  

Don't make something you like and consume part of your core identity. This way you won't sperg out by conflating an attack on that something with an attack on yourself.

This is why families are so important. That's where your core identity lies and people with families to take care of only lash out when they're told they should really care about X. People with no families place their roots in ephemeral trends or loose concepts. They sperg out all the time because there's nothing else in their lives for them to fall back on.

Blogger James Lovebirch February 08, 2020 1:58 PM  

@36

That's exactly right, what someone in despair wants is to feel more right and justified about their despair to avoid the painful process of seeing how they're wrong and getting out of it.

Blogger S. Thermite February 08, 2020 2:01 PM  

I am ashamed Vox, though in my defense the only time I recall publicly questioning your assessment of Peterson was on your April 26, 2018 blog post when you said you’d still “not read any of his books nor watched any of his videos.” I’d just recently discovered Peterson, and in my perception at that time you were unfairly dismissing a potential ally based on one fallacious argument. I didn’t yet understand that you hold public intellectuals to a higher standard than rhetorical champions like Cernovich and Milo. On that same blog post one of the most outspoken of the Dread Ilk also publicly questioned whether Peterson’s behavior has risen to the level of deliberate lying.

But you were right and I was definitely wrong. After you did start reading Peterson’s writing, you quickly disabused me of any notion that this snake-in-the-grass is any kind of an ally.

Blogger anrkALT February 08, 2020 2:01 PM  

Never liked Peterson. Didn't know the word for it at the time, but I got massive gamma vibes from him even in 2017. For the same reason, I never liked Ben Shapiro, Nick Fuentes, or anyone like them.

Even when I was more liberal, I never liked Bill Maher, Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, John Oliver, etc. Gamma vibes.

Never trust gammas is a good rule to live by. Doesn't matter if they're telling you what you want to hear.

Blogger James Dixon February 08, 2020 2:06 PM  

> I did not pay much attention to Peterson.

Likewise.

> I was initially confused why you were going after him so hard.

Also likewise. I figured he was a standard leftist who was only arguing against moving so fast, but I never saw him as the charlatan he was. What I saw was enough to keep me from investing anything in him, but not enough to recognize his true nature.

Blogger Reader February 08, 2020 2:06 PM  

Yes, MPAI and idiots are easily manipulated, and those who manipulate are evil, ergo, MPSE - most people serve evil. It is a miracle that great civilizations ever rose at all. But that was all before mass media, i.e., mass manipulation. One doubts whether a great new civilization could arise in today's world.

Blogger Seth S February 08, 2020 2:11 PM  

I initially thought JBP seemed ok but a bit off before Vox ever discussed him. When he first started slamming him I was slightly skeptical but just allowed Vox to make his case before I disagreed. Before the book ever came out Vox convinced me. I don't always get Voxs initial ideas, but over time they begin to make sense.

Blogger Lyon February 08, 2020 2:13 PM  

This why I keep coming back. Come for the wisdom, stay for the humour. Shame is a healthy corrective. If I'm 5 years old and punch my brother in the face, not in a self-defence way but rather initiating the violence then, yes, a parent should correct me if I haven't already caught the error in my action. And my own sense of shame will instruct me not to do so again. If like an idiot you fall for J.P. and his rhetorical Magic Mystery Tour, and later see the error of doing so, especially if you defended him or advocated for him in the public square, then shame is a natural response and corrective. Learn from it and move on. Repent and don't do it again. Before reading the other comments I wanted to offer my take, independent of what others have said. so if my thoughts sound like an echo chamber, humour me.

Blogger Pratisara February 08, 2020 2:13 PM  

To do these kinds of things was exactly why the little man behind the curtain groomed JP. To be used as ammo.

I began to like JP when I saw his personal responsibility and anti SJW videos ( especially where he chewed out the Brit hostess ). Did not pay any money but did not know him fully well.

Once I came to know the discrepancies from Vox, researched further and started questioning. The CAvanaugh comment did it for me.

Not ashamed, but not proud either.

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( the worst problem with being an inveterate smartass; no one knows when to take you seriously ) February 08, 2020 2:19 PM  

4. Newscaper312 February 08, 2020 10:15 AM
Hey Vox, at least we dont have to worry you're trying to give warm and fuzzies to take advantage of us!



you should be ashamed that you haven't offered Vox your skull yet.


14. James Dixon February 08, 2020 10:45 AM
He always claimed to be a leftist who merely thought they had gone too far (by which he actually meant too fast).


ie - a Buckley conservative.

Blogger Dan in Georgia February 08, 2020 2:30 PM  

But for whatever reason, they have been trained or encouraged to be nice and eschew your brutal honesty. So they politely lie. To their dismay."

Churchianity
Desegregation
Destruction of Freedom of association (and non-association)
And "bake my gay cake!"

Don’t forget the best one:
“Wax my balls!”

Blogger Nathan Bruno February 08, 2020 2:31 PM  

I purchased the 12 rules on discount on Kindle. It literally made no sense to me. I did not escape the first rule chapter.

I read a chapter of Fumbling for a Map of Meaning - enough to write a paper about it for a Bible class on misrepresentation of Christianity. I understood he was a surrogate father to a lot of broken people, but, looking at what we've seen come out since, he's not a good man to fill that role.

I don't like videos, so I never watched the amazing magic tricks. Video is a propaganda medium.

Jordanetics captured my experience reading the book: there's a compact between author and reader in a non-fiction work, and Peterson's work did not live up to that, because the ostensible thesis of each chapter was not what the chapter was about.

I eventually realized that he repackaged Darwin-worshiping Unitarianism with a book I once read, The Five Hundred Year Delta, along with the guidance one would get from Spinal Tap's "Springtime" about washing once you're through.

Blogger Newscaper312 February 08, 2020 2:35 PM  

Most down votes I've received on Instapundit was a my comment a few weeks ago on a post referencing JP. Something to the effect of him being a guy self-admittedly on the left trying to keep the SJW excesses from chasing young men away to the right.
Nothing directly bashing him at all. Some Canadian guy even chimed in about JPs long association w the NDP. Didnt matter.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer February 08, 2020 2:38 PM  

Other defenses include reading your Bible

I was initially suspicious, but after seeing 5 minutes of his lecture on Genesis on youtube I knew he had issues. Be very suspicious of anybody who cites Jung. Jung was not a scientist. Nor was he a philosopher.

Blogger sammibandit February 08, 2020 2:48 PM  

One of the best stupid taxes I paid was going to see JBP with my reluctant but patient fiancé. I paid $200 to hear him through gritted teeth say he was happy to be back in Alberta. That was what made me snap to rationality. No true Albertan wavers at being happy to come back to the prairie where there's nothing to give you shelter to hide your shame.

What sticks out in my horse coming to water story is how few men came to see him and how my fiancé waited until I saw myself to indicate how lame JBP is. Fiancé turned me onto VD's YT and Owen as well.

Blogger Lyon February 08, 2020 2:56 PM  

@81.

And Dan in Georgia comes shining through. Thanks for the belly laugh!

Blogger Reader February 08, 2020 3:05 PM  

JP's inflamed ego could not overcome the weak, broken thing that rots in his core. Would that every charlatan and globohomo puppet self-destruct as readily as that pathetic little man.

Blogger rikjames.313 February 08, 2020 3:08 PM  

I am a lawyer. In my area of practice there are some flat out conmen, businessmen spinning the truth almost into a con, and people stretching the truth. Not an expert, but I have seen through a few over the years

For some reason it is easier for people to believe a big lie. Most conmen are alpha or are doing a good job faking it. They also package their story with enough of what people want to hear.

The worst I saw was a conman playing as a bishop of a nonexistent African church. His crew played people into a free church building, corporate donations, and a government contract for classes and mentoring for youth. The act was way over the top, he was followed by a guy holding a fabric umbrella over his head, he did long prayers in tongues, he dressed like a mix of catholic bishop and tribal chief. I would see him and chuckle, but people got taken in. Finally a state worker did a background check, after the guy's team got the contract and first payment, and found out they were felons.

Blogger FP February 08, 2020 3:19 PM  

What angered me about Peterson was how so many jumped to make that link between a Canuck Harvard prof, a head shrinker no less beating up that bbc bint and him being on the right side. Hey, he's risking his career as a professor! So?

He was a johnny come lately. Big deal. Welcome to the party, pal! So many have said better than he ever has and will. That doesn't mean you kiss his arse and listen to everything he says. He either got lucky or was promoted after that BBC interview.

I got tired of arguing with people who thought he would have some use in waking up the college youth. Then people actually look into his personal history, let alone his crazy books and lectures and he's socialist with paintings of Lenin on his office wall. Oh, no he's reformed since his college days. Yeah, whatever.

Blogger M Cephas February 08, 2020 3:40 PM  

It was very easy for me to believe what you said about Peterson because I had read about something called Theosophy a long time ago, which is like some luciferian cult, and I was reminded of them when Peterson talked about Genesis.

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( the worst problem with being an inveterate smartass; no one knows when to take you seriously ) February 08, 2020 3:43 PM  

the weird thing is, i'm out the other end of the spectrum.

i wasn't confused by Vox attacking him for his deceit ( Jordan claims to revere both Science! and Freud ... which are mutually exclusive positions ), i was confused by the intensity that Vox was going after him.

i mean, there are SO MANY charlatans and frauds, what made Jelly Butter Peanut so special? usually, somebody has to attack Vox before he goes all Grand Inquisitor on them.

then Vox started quoting from Jordie's books. ick.

Blogger Up from the pond February 08, 2020 3:46 PM  

>>"There was a guy reflecting arguments in mainstream news and major alt media sites I had only heard in niche corners of the internet."

Saw that too, checked out some of his YouTube videos, they were kind of boring.

Next thing I heard, he was making mountains of money lying that nationalism is the root of genocide (the standard CP line), and so I classified him under "obnoxious gatekeeper." Everything that emerged about him was confirmation: CP posters, "can't do it," Kavanaugh cave, etc.

My shame is that I planned to write a wall of text elsewhere, explaining Peterson's perfidy to people, but couldn't get to the bottom of why Peterson is like that.

Vox got to the bottom of everything, and Peterson is not only worse than I suspected, I never knew the half of it. Thank you, Vox Day.

Blogger Robert What? February 08, 2020 3:58 PM  

I never read or listened to Peterson so I have no idea what his racket was. Would any kind soul here give me his elevator pitch?

Blogger Knight of Logos February 08, 2020 4:14 PM  

I was never a huge fan of Peterson, but I watched some of his videos and thought I liked him since he would have good talking points. I even decided to get his 12 Rules for life book, since I kept seeing it promoted. That was my first time something was off... it is seldom that I've ever read a worse book. I didn't even get halfway through it. I can't believe I missed the Occult dreams and insanity that Vox so clearly points out in Jordanetics. I chalk it up as a learning experience and a reason to be more discerning.

I am grateful that I got to see Vox's breakdown when I did. He presented a lot of evidence, quotes right out of the lobster's mouth, facts from his past, that really sealed-the-deal. I was starting to feel on-the-fence anyway, but I suspect even if I was a big JBP fan, I would still have changed my opinions because truth is more important than my emotions.

Blogger Dire Badger February 08, 2020 4:19 PM  

I just thought he was boring. I never understood the appeal, or the lashback. But Boring is the ultimate crime for a celebrity.

Blogger Joe Smith February 08, 2020 4:21 PM  

@46 It's not that Vox and Owen are "doing it a million times better" though. Peterson isn't rescuing young men. Ones he influences that get themselves together start with him and then leave once they realize he's actually trying to destroy them. Tavistock globalists are never trying to help anyone with anything.

Blogger Damelon Brinn February 08, 2020 4:28 PM  

But at the same time, it would be nice if someone out there could achieve the same prominence as Peterson who would inspire young men to act as men, without having the internal inconsistency or fragility of Peterson.

I'm not sure that's possible. Popularity and hard truths don't tend to go together. Even Jesus's crowds largely did a fade when he told them what he really wanted from them, and they'd just seen him do miracles. Most people are looking for easy answers. If someone talks straight about manhood, for real, he's never going to achieve mass popularity. If someone achieves it, he's probably selling snake oil or a cult.

Manhood probably has to be taught man-to-man or man-to-team, not man-to-audience. And it's learned through hard experience, not by gimmicks like room-cleaning.

Blogger Noah B. February 08, 2020 4:33 PM  

There's a level beyond simply recognizing a fraud when you see one, and that's what Vox did - having the confidence and willingness to dive in and expose that man for what he really is. And what a coup to be able to do that by using the man's own published words.

Blogger Shane Bradman February 08, 2020 4:43 PM  

I found Vox after hearing about Peterson and seeing through him once I bought his book and read his dribble, but all of the people that had the opportunity to hear Vox's criticism knew the truth and chose to ignore it. You should already have been dubious about the fact he wrote a self help book and sold shitty personality tests.

Blogger artensoll February 08, 2020 4:45 PM  

I don't know why it's bothering me that so many numpties are saying "BBC" when it was Channel 4, but it is.

Blogger Sargent.matrim February 08, 2020 4:45 PM  

I would like to criticize those who couldn't see that Peterson was bad from early on. His penchant for wanting to over complicate everything he said, caused me to be wary. It's how some charlatans make themselves appear smarter than they are. He was often just talking high sounding nonsense.

But I was taken in by a famous conservative preacher who turned out to be a really bad guy when I was in my early twenties.

I am ashamed I got taken in by him. And let him influence my ministry. And I've worked hard to avoid letting it happen again.

I learnt from that experience. I now have very little trust for public figures, especially the media darlings. Especially the edgy types. It's all part of the show to take in your cash and worse.

Don't ignore the shame. Harness it. Learn from it. Shame is a gift that helps you remember and learn.

Blogger Up from the pond February 08, 2020 4:49 PM  

>>"Would any kind soul here give me his elevator pitch?"

Serve Satan.

Blogger Sargent.matrim February 08, 2020 4:50 PM  

The amount of Christians taken in by those lectures is an indictment on the church.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan February 08, 2020 5:00 PM  

1 of 5 here, my reasoning being he was yet another right wing naughty talker and that act is always a fraud, and as we have come to find he was manufactured.

Blogger CharityBear February 08, 2020 5:11 PM  

Peterson said in that Kathy Newman interview "The pursuit of truth is uncomfortable because you have to offend people." That gave me the impression that he was 'our guy' since he was confronting radical feminists and LGBT crazies. Never read any of his material but did listen to a few videos where he would debate intersectional activists and thought he was mostly good.

Blogger Wilma jiminy February 08, 2020 5:27 PM  

"I saw through his act at first glance and immediately observed several points of evidence that strongly indicated he had a disordered mind and a deceptive character"

Which begs the question, how do you not see through Owen Benjamin, who makes Peterson look sane by comparison.

For instance, how is Owen's latest ramblings of "optimal performance" by sharing his usage of turpentine any different from Peterson's beef only diet. One could argue Owen's is far more dangerous, yet your blind spot to him continues to gape. Why can you see Peterson's insanity, but not Owen's? Double standards perhaps? Or do you support the use of turpentine? If so, why do you excuse this? I like your stuff vox, but some things I struggle to understand how you don't condone one person put condone another for similar actions. Why is this?

Blogger SomeOne February 08, 2020 5:33 PM  

I have never paid for or read JPs material, and stopped listening to him after a month trying to find something of substance from him (right at the start of his meteoric rise). RlFrom early on it was easy to see it was entertaining feel good fluff for white boys.

HOWEVER - I'm still not prepared to concede that Vox is correct that he is essentially an evil character.

Mentally unstable, drug dependent, and merely an Oprah for the mediocre white boy - all those.

And also keen to make a buck, also in love with his own voice and opinions - definitely (but then, aren't we all?).

But I'm still not prepared to concede the evil part. I believe there was or maybe still is possibility of influencing his position on various stances had a less demeaning/attacking approach been taken.

Not that it matters to anyone in the slightest, particularly this far down the comments section...

Blogger urthshu February 08, 2020 5:38 PM  

It's hilarious how he crashed and burned so spectacularly but he was always so eye rollingly boring to me in the first place. I'm truly, utterly mystified as to why he had any following at all.

Blogger Kiwi February 08, 2020 5:41 PM  

JP is the catalyst for my arrival here.

MY exposure:
1. First appearance - he seemed ok, didn't like his chances
2. later saw him looking broken - felt concern for him
3. later saw him talking about gods - felt more concern for him
4. later read his book - fraud detected! Time to pay attention!
5. Next day - alerted FB friends to his lies
6. Next two days - bombarded with "you just don't understand him"
7. Next day - questioned whether I was wrong. Concluded I wasn't.
8. Next day - A post appeared among those telling me I was wrong. It seemed like it was spoken in a tiny voice, but I saw it loud and clear, it said something like "Vox Day agrees with you"

I didn't know who Vox Day was, never heard of him. What sort of name is that I thought! However, it made finding him easy. I found the darkstream, I found Jordanetics, I found the blog.

Up until point 4. I had no inkling JP was fraudulent. I did not expect to read his book and find it so corrupt. Should I have picked up on it sooner, perhaps, but the important thing is that I could recognise it before I started to "worship" him as others had. I would have been annoyed with myself, ashamed, and somewhat broken if that had happened.

I've always been, what you could call, naturally suspicious, but this is the first time I've met opposition to my claims someone was a bad actor, and opposition came from people who I had thought quite smart - that knocked me! But I got up again, but it wasn't easy, finding VD was important in making that a smooth transition. Much appreciated! I've learnt so much from this JP episode and without getting hurt, so I have to be grateful for that.

However, into the present now, I've invested far more time in this space than I ever did on JP. I like it here in the VD bubble, and it looks good so far, but I remain quietly suspicious, more so due to the time investment I'm making. I don't want to risk ending up like the Peterson disciples. What if I find VD corrupt! Would I could get up again!

Sometimes I read a VD line and I have to log it as a liability on my trust balance sheet, but there is still a large net profit, so I stay. How long do I need to look at the books here? I'm not sure, but with people irl I am usually careful for at least two years. So by 2022 I should have a better idea, but at this stage the dividends look promising.

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( the worst problem with being an inveterate smartass; no one knows when to take you seriously ) February 08, 2020 5:41 PM  

93. Robert What? February 08, 2020 3:58 PM
I never read or listened to Peterson so I have no idea what his racket was. Would any kind soul here give me his elevator pitch?



1 - introduced Carl Jung's "integrating the Shadow" to pop culture

2 - told young men they were "dangerous" and "threatening" with a weird positive twist

3 - actually encouraged young men to take responsibility for their own lives ( which is contra public school indoctrination ), salted with self destructive advice like "take your psych meds, bucko"

4 - argued from his own authority, as any good Narcissist or college professor would

5 - achieved notoriety for standing athwart the tranny tracks of history by yelling, "Stop" at the pronoun loonies.

Blogger bramley says "Enoch was right" February 08, 2020 5:45 PM  

artensoll wrote:
I don't know why it's bothering me that so many numpties are saying "BBC" when it was Channel 4, but it is.


#metoo

I was just going to post to say the same thing. We have more than one broadcaster in the UK people! They are all equally terrible!!

Blogger Avalanche February 08, 2020 5:48 PM  

@47 "I think Avalanche is a widow, and her husband was a professor whom she respected greatly. I read her blog."

Um, yeah to the widow; no to the professor -- he was working on his doctorate in the history of science when he realized he would NEVER stand being in academia with the idiots and left for, as he always put it, the last refuge of the n'er-do-well: the family business. He was, however, as brilliant -- and with as astonishing a memory as Vox's. My husband, too, could remember everything he ever read (but was not eidetic) and synthesize it into a working whole. (Respect greatly? Oh, darn near worshiped! WHAT a brain!)

And... not sure whose blog you're reading; but I don't have one; never have. I used to run a dating, mating, marrying advice list, but had to drop it when my husband died and attend to keeping the biz going. But, thanks Mother Country, for the kind words.

Blogger Scott February 08, 2020 5:49 PM  

I watched more than a hundred hours of his psychobabble trying to understand what he was saying. I was pretty sure that I did, until Vox wrote Jordanetics and explained what was going on. Near the end my "gut" was telling me something about him was off and I stopped paying attention to him.

A few months later he made his tweet about the Jewish IQ thing. Something I knew was completely false and reeked of globalism.

I fell for his bullshit, but I'm glad Vox was around to identify and explain what my intuition warned me about.

Blogger CitizenOutkast February 08, 2020 5:49 PM  

I didn't even hear of Peterson until VD actually started talking about him, and if he hadn't, doubt I still would of heard of him. I do know quite a few conservatives fell all over themselves defending him when I told them what VD would say about him. But then, conservatives are so desperate for a hero in the public eye that they'll crown any "celebrity" that takes a pot-shot at the left as a conservative warrior ready to lead them into a conservatopia.

Blogger bramley says "Enoch was right" February 08, 2020 5:58 PM  

His advice is basically this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feeIOZH7wr4 with weeping and guilt

Blogger Avalanche February 08, 2020 6:16 PM  

@96 "It's not that Vox and Owen are "doing it a million times better" though. Peterson isn't rescuing young men. Ones he influences that get themselves together start with him and then leave"

And this is what hooked me and kept me hooked: the lost young men that he really did seem to be throwing a lifeline to. It was these men -- such as Vox and Owen now influence to come or get back to Christianity, to marry and make babies, to look after their civilization and nation -- that held my interest.

If they were drowning, and Jordie was a lifeline to pull them closer to shore -- huzzah! It's a place to start; it's better than them giving up and drowning.

Granted, *I* was filling in messages of goodness and health in place of the the evil anti-nationalism, anti-group, anti-tribe, 'be an individual lobster.' I thought the natural next step for these young men would be principles I take for granted as aware posterity. Vox changed that for me; for which I am grateful. (None so convinced as a convert, eh?)

Blogger Andy Evick February 08, 2020 6:17 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Shield up sword swinging pipes blasting February 08, 2020 6:43 PM  

I knew he lived in Pooh after he couldn't handle a polite JQ question. I have a JP follower friend who is a lost leaf blowing in the wind. He can't handle being around me anymore because he found out I've been married for 17 years own a house and two cars and have 3 kids... While he sadly is 15 years older than me, can't get married but feels he is better than me.

Blogger VD February 08, 2020 6:46 PM  

Which begs the question, how do you not see through Owen Benjamin, who makes Peterson look sane by comparison.

Because there is nothing to see through with Owen. And you're lying. Owen, for all his idiosyncracies, is obviously sane and more or less mentally normal. Peterson is mentally ill and has been for a long time.

Blogger DannyDanger February 08, 2020 6:48 PM  

I guess by all reasonable standards I am an idiot - i fell for JBP as the intellectual college professor who happened to oppose leftist extremists and promote biblical knowledge.

The one saving grace was that i became suspicious when JBP started off on some lecture about the Gospel of Thomas and quoted the Gnostic Gospel instead of the real one...some time later I discovered Vox for the first time and then it was apprenticing from there on out.

If nothing else, I feel like the JBP exposure is one of the most obvious examples of the Dark Lord's +whatever SD intelligence because he got it immediately where as it took me having him explain it to understand. All i know is, I'm really glad to have discovered the Darkstream because it I instantly realized I was being given a gift from someone much, much further down the path.
And quite unlike JBP, this individual was not addicted to meth.

Blogger VD February 08, 2020 6:54 PM  

And this is what hooked me and kept me hooked: the lost young men that he really did seem to be throwing a lifeline to.

Avalanche, for crying out loud, stop with the endless babbling about the poor lost young men. You would excuse literally anything as long as they sold it to you as helping the poor lost young men. This is exactly what I'm talking about with regards to a complete lack of meta self-awareness. It would be child's play for anyone to take advantage of you after reading about three of your comments.

Go teach THE YOUNG WOMEN. That is your duty. Not playing Mommy to men who aren't children.

Blogger James Dixon February 08, 2020 6:56 PM  

> What if I find VD corrupt!

Vox has been here since at least the early 2000's. His collected columns go back to 2001. He's had lots of time to be corrupted if he were going to be.

Blogger C February 08, 2020 7:20 PM  

I came across Peterson through YouTube recommendations. I like to draw, and I like to have background noise when I do. So I would set up a YouTube video on one screen and draw on my main screen. I wouldn't be paying attention, but the noise, for whatever reason, helped me focus. I am not as disciplined as like, but that's a different conversation.

Except for one thing, there was nothing about Peterson that stuck through this. Echoing a lot of sentiment here, it was good enough to have a pushback voice against the crazed left and social justice culture. You're not listening to content, you're listening to the notes. Even if he was babbling, he hit the notes.

I remember that the thing that turned me away from Peterson was a forty-something minutes long college lecture. And it was baffling, because he ten minutes into it started talking about patriarchal roles, King Arthur, and some Jungian psychology. The latter is what got my attention, because a lot of (Japanese) media that I enjoy employs Jungian concepts regularly.

And, that did it. I actually listened to the man babble, realized, "He doesn't know what he's talking about, he wasn't even prepared to speak!" Then I closed the tab. I only recall thinking of Peterson twice after, once when his name came up as a potential Canadian prime minister, and later, when Vox set out to write Jordanetics.

Blogger roundeye February 08, 2020 7:28 PM  

I was never a JP person, mostly because of my age (early gen xer) and the fact my room was already clean, I have a career, a family etc.

I never got the Jordanetics thing because I never looked. Holy crap you were right.

Benzos are crazy addictive and crazy powerful. I took half a Valium for a medical procedure...it was the best mood of my life, everything glowed and everybody loved me. So no more benzos for me. Same deal, had a kidney stone and got a mg of morphine...but Valium was better.

How can any thinking person believe this stuff is good? Like everyone I have suffered crushing personal losses due to deaths of loved ones. But maybe get drunk with your best friends and wake up the next day and get back at it.

Blogger Dave February 08, 2020 7:30 PM  

Wilma jiminy wrote:"I saw through his act at first glance and immediately observed several points of evidence that strongly indicated he had a disordered mind and a deceptive character"

Which begs the question, how do you not see through Owen Benjamin, who makes Peterson look sane by comparison.

For instance, how is Owen's latest ramblings of "optimal performance" by sharing his usage of turpentine any different from Peterson's beef only diet. One could argue Owen's is far more dangerous, yet your blind spot to him continues to gape. Why can you see Peterson's insanity, but not Owen's? Double standards perhaps? Or do you support the use of turpentine?


Turpentine oil has been use throughout history to remedy various medical ailments. I haven't seen Owen's "ramblings" but I seriously doubt he is suggesting a turpentine only diet. Not very credible to try to equate to Peterson's beef only diet.

Blogger Gulo Gulo February 08, 2020 7:41 PM  

Never fell for him because what he was saying never seemed to me to be that cogent, profound or interesting. There are others in the world of the web who may meet the threshold of con, however they seem much more interesting and orders of magnitude more intelligent than Peterson. Martin Armstrong comes to mind. Not sure about him , but definitely find his insights intriguing.

Blogger Blume February 08, 2020 7:50 PM  

If Owen went on a ramble about "optimizing performance" by drinking Turpentine then I have to applaud him for an excellent joke. Don't really see how there is anything to see through in a comedian acting a fool. It's kind of their job.

Blogger Student in Blue February 08, 2020 7:53 PM  

That is your duty. Not playing Mommy to men who aren't children.

A problem many women have, and should fix.

Blogger flyingtiger February 08, 2020 8:04 PM  

He smelled like a phony from day one. Hence, I avoided him. VD, I want to thank you for putting into words all that was false about him. Most of us do not have the time to do so.

Blogger Middle American Water Tower Man February 08, 2020 8:31 PM  

I came across him on a prager video because it just popped up on my youtube way back. He is such a weakling that it drove me instantly away.

Blogger Kiwi February 08, 2020 8:39 PM  

Speaking of ratios.

Looking through the comments, people claim to have: not known him, been duped by him, found him boring, and a handful recognised he was a charlatan.

Of those who recognised he was a charlatan, how many warned others? Should those people who stayed silent with their knowledge, be as ashamed as the MPAI's who were so easily duped? I think yes.

Blogger Unknown February 08, 2020 8:44 PM  

I myself felt reluctant to belive you when you first exposed him as I am rhetorical oriented. Then I found that you were a man of God and I started to reconsider everything I knew. Maybe it's because God also makes me feel good..

Blogger MidnightSun February 08, 2020 8:47 PM  

I was listening to a JBP lecture on religion. He was talking about a friend of his who had an enlightening experience with the Holy Spirit. To which Petersen answered "The Spirit. What the hell is that?" I knew there and then he was a fraud or clearly had no clue of that which he was speaking. Never listened to a word he said after that. That was about 3 year ago.
Another thing that struck me odd was when he said we owe our peripheral vision to the fact that we are terrified by snakes. It made no sense. Clearly he was confusing reality with one of his demented dreams.

Also speaking of bafflegab, listen to St. Efans take on JBP. He goes on for nearly an hour in what could have been said in two minutes. Sort of sounds like Petersen himself. Is Stefen loosing it or something.

Blogger jarheadljh February 08, 2020 9:53 PM  

I genuinely can't remember when I found this blog, or under what circumstances. I think it was before Peterson showed up on the scene but whatever. Pretty sure I don't really add anything but even now and then it's fun to throw something out there. I am supremely lazy and much less well read than I either could be or should be, so my warning signs with Lobster King were his Bible lectures followed by watching him "interview" Camille Paglia. I use quotes because all he does in that interview is reflect back at her everything she says and it was rather apparent that he was rather less impressive than originally thought even though I had no suspicions about him beyond that. Never read any of his books, never plan to. Had zero clue about any of the rest of it until you outed him as a gamma basketcase, so thanks for doing the actual work to torpedo him, VD. We all owe you.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 08, 2020 10:08 PM  

Wilma, why are you so obsessed with controlling what other people think?

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 08, 2020 10:13 PM  

Call back if you finally go and figure out what turpentine is.

Blogger Pencil Maestro February 08, 2020 10:43 PM  

I didn't like the guy long before Vox exposed him as a globalist and a weirdo. I just didn't like him for different reasons. First, he's a very non-masculine guy talking about masculinity. Second, he didn't strike me as highly intelligent at all. And third, he never really said anything. Any time I listened to him he was vague. The man refuses to commit to statements and ideas. Remember that interview where the host kept asking him: so what you're saying is... Well, it was a good question because he rarely says anything.

Blogger Paul M February 08, 2020 10:52 PM  

JP got a following for saying a few things that many people were desperate to hear said. Something as simple as "no, people are not obliged to alter fundamental parts of the english language (pronouns) for politically-motivated nutcases".

But one look at his word-salad was enough. I'm not especially wise, but I am 50, and that's ample time to have seen that kind of garble a couple of times previously.

Blogger Red Raven February 08, 2020 11:08 PM  

I thought he was good at first but what broke the spell for me was when he made a comment about bringing in more Indians because they pumped money back into India.

I was like - nope. This isn’t right and he never had the same hold and then I found VDs book and I can’t stomach him any more.

Thank you Vox, lesson learned. Will be more cautious next time

Blogger bodenlose Schweinerei February 08, 2020 11:19 PM  

"If the most beautiful girl in the room starts flirting with you, she is after something.">

Updated for current times, " "If the most beautiful girl in the room starts flirting with you, she is probably not really a woman."

Which begs the question

You don't understand what that phrase means, wilma. It's not a good start, and things don't get any better for you.

Blogger Maximoushka February 08, 2020 11:54 PM  

Hey,i didn't know Owen was a grifter. He is a Youtube guy and he does standup. What is he selling (read looting from) us?
He has many ideas that normies are shocked by. But why is Owen hated by so many?

Blogger JC February 08, 2020 11:54 PM  

Yep. Vox and Metokur are the only two prominent people I can think of who saw through him immediately.

I had only seen a couple of short clips of him and some other commentary talking about him so I didn't have much of an opinion on him. I also remember him on at least one Stefan Molyneaux stream. I won't say I saw what he was, just that I didn't really care. So when Vox and Metokur started calling him out, I wasn't invested enough to react the way so many did.

There was an interview with Peter Hitchens the other day and he immediately dismissed Peterson's "movement" as a cult when asked about him.

Blogger widlast washere February 09, 2020 12:14 AM  

Never quite understood the fascination with Peterson. I thought it was nice that he apparently stood up against "forced pronoun usage". But other than that, I didn't think he had anything of note to say.

Blogger SirHamster February 09, 2020 1:12 AM  

Azure Amaranthine wrote:Wilma, why are you so obsessed with controlling what other people think?

"B-b-but Owen is gross, I'm just t-t-trying to help!"

None of us think that JBP is a fraud because he tried/promoted a carnivore diet. The midwit thinks he found a clever line of attack on Owen, but it's inept.

Comparing the self-styled savior of humanity to the comedian begs the question.

The comedian's job is to be funny. If he does or says goofy things, that's normal.

Blogger Bernard Korzeniewicz February 09, 2020 2:34 AM  

Exactly.
"Yes = yes, no = no" or GTFO.
The idols of my younger days betrayed me often enough to burn this lesson into my brain.

Blogger furor kek tonicus ( the worst problem with being an inveterate smartass; no one knows when to take you seriously ) February 09, 2020 2:45 AM  

i didn't know anybody in my personal life who was aware of Peterson in the first place.

as for VP commenters, i kind of assumed that his blatant Sovietphilia and Freudphilia should be setting off warning bells.

and he had a disturbing tendency to cry when talking about how boys are attacked in modern society ... which is really strange to juxtapose with his claims that he could kill his wife with one blow if he were to become violent with her.


i mean, it's not as if i take everything that Vox says as gospel ... aren't YOU being critical of most statements that you hear from public figures?

Blogger S. Thermite February 09, 2020 3:01 AM  

@RedJack

Or as my grandfather once told me "Everyone is evil. Never forget that".

This may be the thread winner. MPAI, as am I. But how many of us are smart enough to immediately know we're not throwing out the baby with the bathwater? Peterson has said more in favor of Christianity than I've ever heard atheist/agnostic Cernovich say. When I started reading 12 Rules it reminded me of Cernovich talking about posture in Gorilla Mindset. And with all his mental illness, Peterson didn't engage in an interracial gay marriage and pledge his undying love to his "husband" like Milo did in a book I gladly purchased during the past year. He also doesn't call himself the Supreme Dark Lord and respond with written (not just spoken) f-bombs when people upset him. And then there's Owen Benjamin, whom I traveled to Ohio to see perform in an airplane hanger...and shown devout Christians clips of him speaking Truth to Power while swearing like sailor and telling sex jokes. And let's not even get started on my own sins and shortcomings, real or imagined, from the lens of Churchianity I grew up with. The Kurgan also comes to mind in this discussion...I remember when he was a non-believer and some of the things he says now don't quite pass my admittedly flawed smell test.

In short, I can't trust a lot of my own judgement. I'm flawed, and everyone I've ever met is flawed. It's a struggle to sort the wheat from the chaff, and some of the "sins" I used to disqualify people for in my ignorance no longer seem so sinful. But there's a reason Jesus warned about wolves in sheeps clothing, and there are scriptures about how even the Elect would be deceived if it was possible. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Blogger Bernard Korzeniewicz February 09, 2020 3:03 AM  

Maybe because BB admits in simple language he may be wrong?
BB sounds wrong but true while JP sounds WordSalad.

Blogger Bernard Korzeniewicz February 09, 2020 3:08 AM  

Sorry for your loss, Madam.

Blogger Dire Badger February 09, 2020 4:05 AM  

Kiwi wrote:
Of those who recognised he was a charlatan, how many warned others? Should those people who stayed silent with their knowledge, be as ashamed as the MPAI's who were so easily duped? I think yes.


Why should they? You should know the rules. Never speak to the press. Never try to argue logic with liberals. Never try to 'convince' someone of something they have already made up their minds about.

He was crashing and burning from the moment he first gave an interview. He was baffling and boring and had nothing to say, but a great many words to say it with.

The people who were going to 'come around' were going to do it without help, the bafflegab was utterly transparent. The ones who couldn't come around would have simply been placed on the defensive and rationalize even harder to strengthen their already-cemented opinions.

One has only to read the 'reasoned' rants against Vox's articles for daring to criticize JP to see how it was playing out. The man was on the downward trajectory... why waste your time and drive the stupid into propping up his mediocre career temporarily?

Nope, leaving them alone was the best move for those who actually noticed. He had no power but celebrity, could make no changes, and the softheads will follow ANYONE that says (however incomprehensibly) what they think... even if it's a stopped clock that's only right twice a day.

Sometimes the best thing to do with a brush fire is to create a fire break, contain it, and then let it burn itself out. You are a Kiwi, you have experience with this from your next door neighbor's mistake.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 09, 2020 4:59 AM  

"Of those who recognised he was a charlatan, how many warned others? Should those people who stayed silent with their knowledge, be as ashamed as the MPAI's who were so easily duped? I think yes."

Turns out that would-be death cult leaders and false prophets fall into the basket of things I already ignored for the same reasons I ignore a lot of other people too. I can't speak for anyone else's mental categorizing systems.

As for whether they should be ashamed, maybe, but even if so not as ashamed as the people who just plain fell for it. Charlatans are a dime for a million dozen, good luck being all of interested enough to care, perceptive enough to spot out the particularly dangerous ones, and charismatic enough that random strangers will listen to you.

I'll tell you someone's full of bull if you ask me about them, otherwise for the most part nobody cares.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 09, 2020 5:03 AM  

It's entertaining too:

"What do you think of so-and-so."

"He's a pathological liar."

"Why do you say that?"

"Because of the way he uses words."

"Can you be more specific?"

"...No, no I really can't be more specific."

Blogger Gregory the Tall February 09, 2020 5:13 AM  

Wilma sounds like a troll, and a very stupid one at that.

Blogger VD February 09, 2020 5:18 AM  

Hence the blind spot vox, which is why you don't see. Do you think a normal person would use turpentine to get healthier? Do you think this is normal behaviour? It's all documented vox.

You're wrong, you're stupid, and now you're banned.

Blogger SciVo February 09, 2020 5:56 AM  

MichaelJMaier wrote:Vox, when you started on him, I was shocked by your vehemence, but in two decades, I've don't think I've ever seen your aim put onto the wrong target yet.

Yes, what I have observed is that he keeps a tight laser sight on lies. I have learned from Vox that it is the quickest, easiest, and most reliable way of telling who to despise.

I mean, seems kind of obvious once you say it out loud. But there is so much bafflegarb in our lives, so much noise to the signal, that it is actually a cold breath of fresh air to see that simple heuristic.

Blogger SciVo February 09, 2020 6:17 AM  

anrkALT wrote:Even when I was more liberal, I never liked Bill Maher, Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, John Oliver, etc. Gamma vibes.

I initially liked Jon Stewart (née Jonathan Stuart Leibowitz), until I understood his character. The others all viscerally repulsed me.

Blogger SciVo February 09, 2020 6:26 AM  

Bramley Apple-Sauce wrote:We have more than one broadcaster in the UK people! They are all equally terrible!!

It's okay, man. The train is fine.

Blogger VD February 09, 2020 6:48 AM  

Peterson has said more in favor of Christianity than I've ever heard atheist/agnostic Cernovich say.

Because he's trying to pervert it. Also, you quite clearly didn't watch the Stefan Molyneux video when he talked to Mike and me about spirit cooking.

He also doesn't call himself the Supreme Dark Lord and respond with written (not just spoken) f-bombs when people upset him.

I didn't give myself that nickname. Also, fuck off.

In short, I can't trust a lot of my own judgement.

You're observably too short for the ride. I suggest you leave here and follow Jordan Peterson. I certainly don't want a little weasel like you around.

Blogger VD February 09, 2020 6:51 AM  

Yes, what I have observed is that he keeps a tight laser sight on lies. I have learned from Vox that it is the quickest, easiest, and most reliable way of telling who to despise.

The most useful metric for measuring any individual is the ratio of truth to lies in their words. Everyone deceives from time to time, sometimes for good reason, sometimes due to etiquette, sometimes out of self-defense, but usually to self-aggrandize. But no one of any substantial merit lies or deceives more than 5 percent of the time.

Blogger bramley says "Enoch was right" February 09, 2020 7:22 AM  

SciVo wrote:
It's okay, man. The train is fine.


Our trains are terrible too!!

Blogger artensoll February 09, 2020 8:01 AM  

I would like to apologise to the thread for setting Bramley off.

*shame face*

Blogger Avalanche February 09, 2020 8:30 AM  

@142 "Vox and Metokur are the only two prominent people I can think of who saw through him immediately."

Vox has tipped his hat to Milo for seeing deeper through Jordie before he did. Milo was quite prominent.

Blogger Avalanche February 09, 2020 8:39 AM  

@149 Thank you, Bernard, for your condolances.

@23 And honored by your kindness, SciVo.

(I do truly and deeply value the lessons I get here, from Vox and from his commenters.)

Blogger James Dixon February 09, 2020 9:55 AM  

> Our trains are terrible too!!

So I've heard. And they used to be great. :(

Well, as I believe Vox has noted, import the third world, become the third world.

Blogger S. Thermite February 09, 2020 10:46 AM  

You're observably too short for the ride. I suggest you leave here and follow Jordan Peterson. I certainly don't want a little weasel like you around.

I’m sorry Vox, I made my post in a moment of last night in a moment of drunken frustration. I’m not defending the snake-in-the-grass Peterson or implying that anyone else I mentioned is a lying mentally ill con-man like him. And yes, I am too short for the ride much of the time, despite following you daily since before the SFWA debacle. You’ve opened up my eyes and instructed me on many truths, and it’s been a great ride. I’ll shut up now.

Blogger VD February 09, 2020 11:11 AM  

I’m sorry Vox

NP. But remember, for good or for ill, I am not the subject.

Blogger Dave February 09, 2020 11:49 AM  

S. Thermite wrote:I made my post in a moment of last night in a moment of drunken frustration.

Please put the bottle down and back away slowly.

Good on you S. Thermite for not becoming a gamma sperg.

Blogger VFM #7634 February 09, 2020 11:51 AM  

A mentor once told me "If the most beautiful girl in the room starts flirting with you, she is after something." Same with compliments that are unearned. Be aware of your worth, and be wary of compliments.

Or as my grandfather once told me "Everyone is evil. Never forget that".


I've always gotten a sick, oily feeling from unearned compliments. They actually make me angry. I'm surprised more people don't feel that way.

@163 Avalanche
Humility is very important, and something that's quite rare nowadays. Hence the annoying proliferation of Gammas and their female counterparts.

Blogger Moor February 09, 2020 12:48 PM  

@165

Good on ya, man.

Blogger bramley says "Enoch was right" February 09, 2020 2:39 PM  

BoobTube recommended the video 'Jordan Peterson vs Peter Jordanson' and i've been pissing myself with laughter for the last five minutes. It's a work of genius.

Blogger OvergrownHobbit February 09, 2020 2:52 PM  

This is why we need moms AND dads. Avalanche gives you a hug, then Vox Day boots your posterior.

Blogger Kiwi February 09, 2020 3:13 PM  

150. Dire Badger

Do your zip up mate, your fallacy is hanging out.

Unlike you, some Aussies did warn people, and those who listened were saved.

Blogger Kiwi February 09, 2020 3:31 PM  

151. @ Azure Amaranthine

"As for whether they should be ashamed, maybe, but even if so not as ashamed as the people who just plain fell for it"

The bar should be set by what height you can jump, not what others can. Raise your bar.

Blogger Dire Badger February 09, 2020 4:16 PM  

"Kiwi wrote:150. Dire Badger

Do your zip up mate, your fallacy is hanging out.

Unlike you, some Aussies did warn people, and those who listened were saved.
"

THAT is the only thing you took away from the whole statement?

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 09, 2020 7:06 PM  

"The bar should be set by what height you can jump, not what others can. Raise your bar."

Found the illiterate socialist. Do your own damn work.

Blogger widlast washere February 09, 2020 9:00 PM  

Forgive me as I've missed most of the commentary, but I do remember quite clearly that my father mentioned the use of turpentine and sugar as a dewormer back in the 1930s. Granted this was in Appalachia among the poorest of the poor.

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