Thursday, July 09, 2020

Mailvox: making a difference

Sometimes people are just looking for someone to take a stand:
We belong to a small 400-500 member startup church that I thought was Biblically-based. Several weeks ago, our pastor preached a message on Social Justice.  After several days of consideration, I sent a two-page rebuttal to the sermon.  We fully expected to be asked to leave the church.  Today, the pastor asked me to take one of three eldership positions.
Don't be afraid to leave. But also, don't be afraid to lead.

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Blogger Johnny Reb July 09, 2020 8:07 PM  

God bless that guy. Good on that pastor. Sometimes we all need to correct course. Would love to read that letter.

Blogger Dan B July 09, 2020 8:53 PM  

My wife and I agree that this is awesome.

Blogger The Course of Empire July 09, 2020 9:08 PM  

Well I didn't see that coming from the pastor. Seems he's not gone too far down the Social Justice rabbit hole. Still willing to listen to his people and, even more so (I hope) the word of God over the 'wisdom' of men. I think the letter writer should seriously consider taking that position (assuming he truly feels called and is fit for the role).

Blogger 1LLoyd July 09, 2020 9:10 PM  

Wow! To my mind shouting what you said in SJWs Always Lie. Most people pretend to think this way. Push them and you find they agree with you. I'm glad this person stood tall.

Blogger Cloudswrest July 09, 2020 9:12 PM  

Speaking of converged churches, this happened in Silver Spring Maryland last month. Church cemetery was vandalized by (presumably) BLM terrorists. Instead of condemning the destruction the pastor started grovelling. Link to article below. Here's the last paragraph. It's emetic material. Sounds like the same guy from St. Joseph's in Lafayette Park. They're both Episcopal churches.
Grace Church has so far has decided not to file a police report following the vandalism.

The Rev. Richard Kukowski, interim rector at the church, empathized with the Black Lives Matter movement, saying the church will host an event Sunday.

“We’re going to be putting up a large Black Lives Matter banner on the corner of the Grace Church property,” he said. “We’ll be conducting a protest in response to the murder of George Floyd and in commemoration of Juneteenth.”

Blogger Unknown July 09, 2020 9:40 PM  

I’d love to see a transcript of the sermon.

Blogger Jordan July 09, 2020 9:56 PM  

It is pretty openly espoused on BLM websites that they are Marxists. No form of Marxism is compatible with Christianity. BLM may not use the term but their platform and articles describe distributive/critical-theory/"inter-sectionalism" with dictionary-level accuracy.

Now just because this pastor preached (I presume in favor) of Social Justice does not necessarily mean he is a Marxist. He may be misinformed and using language and words that he does not equate with Marxism while still rejecting their anti-Gospel worldview and their other policy positions (although policing power should be more limited despite what Conservative Inc. thinks - and not because of fake "racism" but because the power of the state must be curtailed), which is perhaps the case if he extended to the man who sent the rebuttal a leadership position.

I appreciate that the man who wrote to Vox thinks 400-500 people is a "small" congregation. I live on PEI in Canada and it took me years to find an authentically Biblical church but it only has roughly 30-40 members and probably half are children although praise God that there are fruitful homeschooling families in such a small congregation.

Blogger Jefferson Kim July 09, 2020 9:57 PM  

I am very interested to read this rebuttal if the author is willing to post.

Blogger Angantyr July 09, 2020 10:18 PM  

I'd like to see the 2 page rebuttal, if its available anywhere.

Blogger jkmack July 09, 2020 10:36 PM  

@Jordan I know, I laughed at 300-400 being considered small. PEI is a delightful place, at least during the summer.

Blogger tdcommenter July 09, 2020 10:39 PM  

Bravo to the man who took a stand.

@7 BLM attacks church.

Blogger Revelation Means Hope July 09, 2020 10:55 PM  

Yes, take a stand.

Also, seems backwards that a Pastor selects Elders rather than the church board. Elders job is to guide and support the Pastor.

Not criticizing. Just not how my denomination does it.

Blogger Lazarus July 09, 2020 11:12 PM  

Why would a sermon be on any subject not in scripture? Maybe sermons themselves are suspect, and only Bible study is required. St. Paul did not deliver "sermons". He directly addressed what came to be known as scripture. He dedicated himself to the Gospel. And nothing but.

Blogger Arthur Isaac July 09, 2020 11:34 PM  

Good news. The Body of Christ confirmed.

Blogger Jeroth July 10, 2020 12:11 AM  

White Pill

Blogger Reprehensible Adam July 10, 2020 12:13 AM  

I want to see that letter. Like really badly. I know my pastor is a commie. He plays Clips of Ted Talks! They had a series of sermons with a Strager Things theme to it. And at Christmas they had people in M n M costumes dancing! And in one sermon the pastor said “I enjoy my wife’s body.”

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim July 10, 2020 12:38 AM  

I'd love to see the rebuttal if possible.

Blogger Thad Tuiol July 10, 2020 12:54 AM  

Funny how if a Synagogue gets so much as a scratch the MSM are all over it as if another Kristallnacht is right around the corner, but when churches get flagrantly vandalized/attacked by BLM goons we hear crickets...

Blogger Akulkis July 10, 2020 1:14 AM  

>> I want to see that letter. Like really badly. I know my pastor is a commie. He ... {list of ridiculous to anti-Christian actions.}

Dude, why have you not LEFT that church already for a good one?

Blogger Colonel Blimp July 10, 2020 3:09 AM  

Sometimes, this just shows that people in these public offices just need a bit of support and cover to do the right thing. Not everyone has the balls to say and fo what is right against the horde. That's why Jesus is our example and guiding light. Ive often been torn on saving whatever limited powder I may have speaking out on fb, at church, etc. but without any other voices people just give up and the children go off a cliff. Sometimes, you have to be that guy.

Blogger Zastavnik Džemo July 10, 2020 5:18 AM  

Yeah also want to see that rebuttal.
Also want to know if you get angel investors in startup church.

Blogger SmokeyJoe July 10, 2020 6:47 AM  

13. Lazarus
"Why would a sermon be on any subject not in scripture?"

Exactly. IMO, the better teaching is chapter by chapter and verse by verse. With ample access to a Strong's Concordence and Smith's Bible Dictionary.

Blogger Avalanche July 10, 2020 7:04 AM  

@7 "not because of fake "racism" but because the power of the state must be curtailed"

But does not the power of OUR state also depend on that the people are a moral White Christian people?

One would not say: the power of the homeowner must be curtailed if, in addition to his family dogs, a pack of wolves moved into his house and began tearing up the place and committing violence against on the family members? Might not the homeowner be best served by bringing in -- and TRAINING -- more dogs? "Attack wolves, protect family"?

Blogger Monotonous Languor July 10, 2020 7:16 AM  

It should be increasingly obvious to everyone that any form of equality is anathema to Christianity. As but one example, anti-racism is a Jewish Trojan horse that's been foisted off on whites as ersatz morality to atone for a sin we never committed. It's not part of traditional Christian beliefs. Instead, Christianity has been undermined, eroded, and essentially replaced by the great god of equality. Its most pernicious forms are feminism, racial equality, and sexual equality. In the last century the West thought it could stave off economic equality known as communism, but it has no defense against the other cultural forms that inundate us today. Unfortunately everyone believes in them to one degree or another. Thus everyone has helped pull down the fabric of society and Christianity. That will stop only when people finally wake up and realize that all equality is a lie, and the pursuit of equality is absolute evil.

The only way to stop the leftist nightmare, is to fully understand, accept, and embrace the following: equality is NOT morality. God is trying to reach people and teach them a lesson. God's Creation, including man and woman, was formed by separation and division. God created the nations by separating tribes and ethnicities, and He will judge them accordingly at the end of days. God did not create equality, nor did Christ acknowledge it in any way. If people do not totally reject equality as some kind of moral precept, then God will allow their society to suffer the consequences, which we now see happening all around us.

Blogger Jamie-R July 10, 2020 7:38 AM  

That makes a lot of sense. People refuse to lead and walk away, but really it's the absence of people willing to take a stand. A lot of libertarian minded folks live in the pioneering lands, distasteful of what their ancestors left behind, but primarily it's middle and working class folks used to being in the system and serving in all forms - not taking a stake in its direction. But self-government demands more do it.

It's noted that barons went up against King John, landowners with some sense of power. That changed the future, or at least, continues to give hope that the same powerbrokers can be brought to heel again. It appears today's barons are some businessmen, some whitehat intel officers, and some military leaders.

Blogger Darren July 10, 2020 8:34 AM  

"What you reward, you get more of" in 3, 2, 1

Blogger Darren July 10, 2020 8:36 AM  

Too many modern churches are so focused on "growth" in the younger demographics that they cuck to what is "trending".

But we know because Jesus taught that quality not quantity is what matters when it comes to what is part of the Vine.

Blogger Darren July 10, 2020 8:39 AM  

"But his references to sitcoms are hilarious, and the music is so up beat and modern, we now have 4 guitarists and 2 drummers!"

Blogger Darren July 10, 2020 8:40 AM  

J Vernon McGee "Through The Bible" still holds up after all these years!

Blogger Off The Wall July 10, 2020 9:18 AM  

SmokeyJoe wrote:13. Lazarus

"Why would a sermon be on any subject not in scripture?"

Exactly. IMO, the better teaching is chapter by chapter and verse by verse. With ample access to a Strong's Concordence and Smith's Bible Dictionary.

This is what turns me off from organized religion. Why should a sermon specifically have to be about scripture? I certainly understand that you might like to tie some modern real-world issue back to some quote from the bible, but that's not what you said. Gatekeeping is all to often used to avoid being exposed to outside ideas.

Blogger Unknown July 10, 2020 9:25 AM  

This is actually beautiful. This makes me feel good.

Blogger Damelon Brinn July 10, 2020 9:42 AM  

Why should a sermon specifically have to be about scripture?

Because that's what a sermon is. If you're giving a talk about something other than faith and morals, like say organic gardening, then it doesn't need to reference scripture; but then it's a talk, not a sermon. A sermon is a specific thing, and if it's not about ideas found in scripture, it's probably getting its ideas somewhere else.

I hope you tipped your fedora when you dissed "organized religion."

Blogger Kraemer July 10, 2020 9:48 AM  

We should make a list of words that are strong gamma tells.
"Sportsball" is obviously one of them, but I'm starting to think "organized religion" is another one. As is "mUsT bE nIcE"

Blogger Johnny Reb July 10, 2020 10:00 AM  

Johnny RebJuly 09, 2020 8:07 PM
God bless that guy. Good on that pastor. Sometimes we all need to correct course. Would love to read that letter.

Vox,this comment was not me. Thought I'd bring itnto your attention.

Blogger Johnny Reb July 10, 2020 10:01 AM  

Someone is using my Username.

Blogger Zoot Fenster July 10, 2020 10:29 AM  

Folks, this was just a short note to thank Vox and his blog posters for the many hours of discussion. I am not going to post the sermon video and my response. While I appreciate allies, this is my church and my people, my small responsibility to shoulder. There is nothing in the letter that is of great logic, rhetoric or argument. No sweeping condemnations or rants. Just short observations to the specific sermon. Almost everyone on this blog writes better than I do. I did steal several phrases from past posts.

The pastor is a strong individual with a solid biblical background. A good man to have in the pulpit. A man who builds a congregation like this one is unlikely to be an SJW. They converge, but don't build.

I turned down the elder invitation, but am reconsidering after counsel from my wife. It would be a new adventure. And the Lord has freed me from other responsibilities at this time of life.

Blogger Brute_swayne July 10, 2020 10:43 AM  

Not only will he and they, I'm sure, refuse to say certain words, but now BLM has them speaking gibberish.
Was this holiday based on Baby Saint George Floyds second grade book report?

Juneteenth. Somebody has a sense of humor.

Blogger Jon D. July 10, 2020 10:50 AM  

This is really encouraging. I'm glad there' real leadership out there to keep the Body of Christ going after this current iteration of Churchianity inevitably dies.

Blogger MrNiceguy July 10, 2020 11:10 AM  

And you still attend this church because...?

And in one sermon the pastor said “I enjoy my wife’s body.”

That one, I really don't have a problem with, depending on context. Nothing wrong with a pastor reminding the congregation that God designed sex to be an enjoyable part of a healthy marriage.

Threads like this sure make me appreciate my pastor. The first Sunday after the riots started, his sole commentary on the subject was, "Every life matters, but the BLM movement is funded by anti-Christian, anti-family billionaires pushing for a one-world government."

Blogger Kraemer July 10, 2020 11:32 AM  

Know of our prayers. Also it's always better to take a leadership position. If you find that can't handle it, you can always resign before messing up and helping the pastor find your replacement. I've done that several times in various institution and everyone respects me for leaving in good graces

Blogger Logan July 10, 2020 12:31 PM  

@Darren Thank you. I've been looking for something like this.

Blogger Stryker4570 July 10, 2020 1:25 PM  

Reprehensible Adam @16 You need to seriously consider leaving that church. Stuff like that is poison for you and your family. I spent years in churches like that and it almost destroyed my faith. Now, if I walk in to a church and see a drum set in the chancel, I leave immediately.

Blogger Stryker4570 July 10, 2020 1:51 PM  

Of the Wall @30 and Damelon @32 " Why should a sermon specifically have to be about scripture? " Not only should it be 'about' Scripture, it should be specifically about Christ in the Scriptures. Preaching about morality and conduct, even 'from the Scriptures, is not uniquely Christian. Every religion has it's own morality and codes of conduct. The Orthodox Jews preach the Law of Moses, but that cannot be considered 'Scriptural Preaching' from a Christian point of view. Romans 1:16 " For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes," It is uniquely preaching about Christ and His work on our behalf that makes a sermon Christian 'Preaching' and gives it power.

Blogger RB July 10, 2020 2:47 PM  


Just be grateful he didn't say, I enjoy your wife's body..

Blogger Akulkis July 10, 2020 4:12 PM  

@44 RB

>> Just be grateful he didn't say, I enjoy your wife's body..

You really do set your goals low.

Blogger RB July 10, 2020 4:56 PM  

@45. No. I made a joke. Did you laugh? I grew up with my father in the pulpit. I find humor in absurd things. This one is too obvious, and I'm tired of taking people too seriously.

Blogger J Van Stry July 10, 2020 5:11 PM  

Wisdom is a rare thing.
So are people with principles who will stand for what they believe in.

Blogger Tim Bushong July 10, 2020 5:34 PM  

Rock and roll. Never surrender and never apologize for recognizing bullshit. Good on the pastor, too. Hopefully this'll shake out well.

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