Friday, March 09, 2012

Team Calvin: Question Five


Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. (Luke 14:25, 26)

How do you reconcile the Second Great Command with Jesus’ statement about hating one’s father and mother, etc.?

A) Jesus contradicts Himself
B) Hate != hate
C) One verse is hyperbole
D) Other
There are two ways to reconcile it. My assumption is that the verses about hating everyone is hyperbole. However, it is also possible to reconcile the two verses by noting that the Second Great Command is in response to the question “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” while the statement about hate concerns what one must do to become Jesus's disciple. Since "inheriting eternal life" is not necessarily synonymous with "becoming a disciple", the two passages cannot be regarded as being definitively in contradiction.

But, as I said, I incline towards the hyperbole explanation. And with this answer, I conclude my part of the Team Calvin Challenge. I lead it to you, the reader, to determine if you believe that these five answers show me to be guilty of the same contortions we have previously observed in Team Calvin's various interpretations of Scripture.

Team Calvin: Question 1
Team Calvin: Question 2
Team Calvin: Question 3
Team Calvin: Question 4



Anonymous Anonymous July 07, 2012 6:14 PM  

In Luke 14: 25, 26, Jesus is drawing a comparison between the love one must exhibit toward God and that such love is to be first and foremost above all other loves that one can exhibit in this world, including love for parent or child. If one puts love for a parent or child above love for God, then in God's eyes this is idolatry and sin. God is Holy and will not yield his glory or reverance to any other. Jesus is not saying "hate" anyone. Jesus is saying love God first. This is how sacred the first commandment is. There are no exceptions, no excuses, no #1 loves except the God of love who gave his only Son Jesus as the supreme act of love. Would you or I give such love as to offer our son or daughter? Of course not. We are not Holy as God is holy. This is another reason the cross baffles so many. Why would a God of love let His Son die? His love is more extrordinary than any of our "loves". His love is infinite,eternal, and glorious.

Anonymous Multiheaded July 14, 2012 9:12 AM  


For a fan of Moldbug, you're surprisingly slow to pick up on his hints of Idealism's nature... or simply in denial. Otherwise you would have seen it instantly and with no uncertainty.

The "Neighbour" is an abstraction, an ideal, an eidos. It's mentioned immediately after God himself because it's a command to worship the Divinity of Man. However, putting some real single individual - especially a reductionist "individual", a mass of local interactions - above either God or the divine aspect within Man - is blasphemy! Therefore, it's the same principle as the one behind modern Humanism. And it's NOT some Calvinist invention (M.M. himself seems in denial about that) - it's been right there from the start, and unfolded into modernity!

Note that I'm not saying all that as an opponent of it all. I confess to being a leftist, an idealist, a total nutjob and in disgust at your whole Neo-Reaction. However, I think that a little brutal honesty can be enormously useful even in the cause of fighting reality.

See james_g's astute explanation, quoting Stirner:

Anonymous Anonymous November 21, 2012 8:05 PM  

>>Would you or I give such love as to offer our son or daughter?<<

interesting. Abraham did. His faith in the matter was accounted as righteousness to him (although, I notice that he went through the entire process up to the last stroke of the knife before God said, "Enough!").

James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Blogger jamsco June 13, 2013 5:09 PM  

Hi Vox Readers,

All of the comments (and there were many) resulting from this post were deleted when Vox switched to a new commenting system.

But if you'd like to read a (admittedly biased) summary of the discussion from one of the Calvinist arguers (me), please go here.

And if you'd like to see my summary of the more unique segment of Vox's theology, you can go here.

Anonymous Wild Bill November 26, 2013 9:42 AM  

Also a good read

Anonymous Joseph Dooley April 13, 2015 11:17 AM  


"Hating one, loving the other" is a Jewish idiom for choosing. If you love God, you choose Him over your father, family, etc. In John 12:15 Jesus speaks of loving your life and hating your life. Of course John doesn't mean you should hate your life because you love God. He's showing that, in a choice between one or the other, you should choose God always over anything.

Matthew 6:24 serves as good context.

Anonymous God Hates Cucks October 05, 2016 1:06 PM  

Luke 10:27 does not actually say that you must love your neighbor, it only says that you should love them as yourself. The second verse says that his disciples should hate even their own lives, thus they would not be obliged to love their neighbors if they did not love themselves first. So even a literal interpretation by today's definition of love and hate do not contradict each other.

Secondly, #4 is correct. The biblical love and hate are different than the modern concept of love and hate.
"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

Anonymous Shadow October 11, 2016 3:12 AM  

Have you considered that "hate" in the translated Greek does not mean the same thing we take it to mean in modern English? Filial respect was important in Judaism, and as we all know blindly following your parents is sometimes to your detriment. Sometimes they and their values need to be rejected when you are an adult, and that's what I believe Jesus was telling us to be prepared to do.

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