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Thursday, May 16, 2013

Rubio fails to follow the logic train

The Republican Senator doesn't think through the logical implications of the accusations he is directing against the Obama administration:
"So in the span of four days, [there were] three major revelations about the use of government power to intimidate those who are doing things that the government doesn’t like. These are the tactics of the third world. These are the tactics of places that don’t have the freedoms and the independence that we have here in this country."
They are the tactics of the third world.  They are, unsurprisingly enough, the tactics of a president who is himself an immigrant and a third worlder.  They are the tactics of a place that no longer has the freedom and independence and population that it once had. And yet, even as he laments this, Rubio is actively campaigning to legalize millions of third worlders who illegally settled in the country and add tens of millions more to their ranks.

Welcome to Third World America.  This is merely the smallest taste of what it is going to look like.

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136 Comments:

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 9:11 AM  

wait...

1) Mexico is second world isn't it?

2) Isn't Mexico pretty much significantly freer than the USA right now?

3) Socialist Mexico has a less controlled economy than socialist USA.

At this point we can probably argue that importing a bunch of mexicans may in the long run lead to more freedom. Not less.

Anonymous RINO May 16, 2013 9:14 AM  

You can take the Kenyan out of the third world but you can't take the third world out of the Kenyan.

Blogger James Dixon May 16, 2013 9:14 AM  

Yep.

As I once posted on LXer (http://www.lxer.com), a Linux oriented news aggregator/discussion site, from memory: "I'm merely glad to have lived in one of the better times and places in human history, and I mourn its inevitable passing."

Blogger James Dixon May 16, 2013 9:17 AM  

> At this point we can probably argue that importing a bunch of mexicans may in the long run lead to more freedom. Not less.

Yes, eventually. But only because our government, like that of Mexico, will become completely ineffective due to massive incompetence and corruption. It's not like it's not well on its way already.

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 9:19 AM  

"But only because our government, like that of Mexico, will become completely ineffective due to massive incompetence and corruption."

Mostly because it will go broke. But then again... its already there anyway...

Things are looking up.

Anonymous RINO May 16, 2013 9:22 AM  

Mostly because it will go broke. But then again... its already there anyway...

And would it be better to have more or less third worlders when it goes broke?

(I believe Mexico is considered third world not second)

Anonymous Stilicho May 16, 2013 9:27 AM  

El Cubano Blanco still thinks he'll get the mestizo vote. He is still wrong. His immigration proposals are best described as "amusingly stupid".

the tactics of a president who is himself an immigrant and a third worlder

Indeed. There has been a failure to understand Obama due to the tendency to view him and interpret his actions through African-American tinted glasses. He is not truly part of that tribe the way it is commonly understood in America. He is not so much the first black President as he is the first immigrant third-worlder President.

Welcome to Third World America. This is merely the smallest taste of what it is going to look like.

The current battles are starting to focus on tribal affiliation. The Republicans are attempting to co-opt the natural process of different tribal groups seeking their own best interests by getting them to realign their interests to a large degree with the party. Soon I expect this trend to change to one where the GOP starts to align itself with its largest constituent tribes or simply ceases to exist as a viable political party. So far, the Democrat party has somewhat successfully aligned itself with several different constituent tribes through the expedient of simply promising all such groups everything their hearts desire and blaming any failures to deliver on the GOP. This coalition arrangement will come under increasing pressure as the constituent tribes find themselves in direct competition for dwindling resources. While the GOP could survive and thrive as the de facto white party, the Democrats have little choice but to dominate the political process sufficiently to have continued access to enough resources to pay off multiple, competing constituent groups out of others' pockets. This is an unstable condition. Equilibrium is not possible, just a tempering of the effects by a growing economy. Which we do not have. There will be war.

Blogger James Dixon May 16, 2013 9:27 AM  

> I believe Mexico is considered third world not second

I think it's a contested issue, but the consensus opinion when I was in school lo these many years ago was second world, not third.

Blogger Old Harry May 16, 2013 9:29 AM  

I heard an interview with this movie maker (linked to below )this morning. One of his talking points involves what will happen when we bring these people "out of the shadows" (who chose to break our laws and live in the shadows. He believes that they won't be content to tend the yards and pools of the 2% and will start demanding the jobs middle class America depends on. They will use the full force of the ACLU, the Labor Department and La Raza to demand those jobs.

www.theycometoamerica.com



Anonymous Josh May 16, 2013 9:30 AM  

If Mexico is third world, what is most of Africa, fourth or fifth world?

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 9:30 AM  

"And would it be better to have more or less third worlders when it goes broke?"

That depends. like it or not... Mexico is significantly more free than we are. For example... there are no regulations on toilet sizes in mexico. You can get good drugs at drug stores in mexico. You can actually buy ***gasp*** sudafed! The horror!

Starting a business in mexico is significantly easier than starting one in the US is today.

The list goes on and on.

You people are worrying about the nation turning into mexico.. when Mexico would be a significant improvement. The USA is worse than the USSR ever was.

Anonymous Daniel May 16, 2013 9:37 AM  

The Mexican influx is slowing - we should be talking about Guatemala.

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 9:38 AM  

ok... so really by the original cold war definitions Mexico is a third world country. But then... so was Switzerland.

Anonymous dh May 16, 2013 9:40 AM  

Rubio acts as though he isn't a part of the problem.

1. The IRS has power because cowards in Congress use it to enforce all sorts of non-related policy. Plus the income tax is a bad idea and hard to enforce anyways. The system is setup to allow the IRS to determine what activities are acceptable. It puts people in the position of asking the IRS for permission.

2. The Administration can subpoena information in an investigation because Congress has not prevented it from happening. This is basically Congress complaining that Congress hasn't exempted news organizations from the laws Congress passed in the first place.

3. Benghazi is basically the same story. This is Congress complaining that they don't like the way that the administration has run the private war that Congress has funded and allowed to exist.

Anonymous Alexander May 16, 2013 9:40 AM  

Nate - in all seriousness though:

How much of that is because Mexico has a policy of exporting its bottom percentiles and would-be far left socialist voters up north for the gringo to deal with? And how many of them still remain in Mexico - because those are the ones that are going to make their way northward, not the ones who have no qualms with you buying sudafed.

Anonymous RINO May 16, 2013 9:44 AM  

You people are worrying about the nation turning into mexico.. when Mexico would be a significant improvement. The USA is worse than the USSR ever was.

So .... if things go unstable you're advocating the importation of a large number of people who are prone to gang behavior, anti-white racism, and beheadings right before it happens?

Anonymous dh May 16, 2013 9:44 AM  

3) Socialist Mexico has a less controlled economy than socialist USA.

I am more than a little familiar with the Mexican economy, it is far more fascist than the US economy, but less centrally controlled. They love straight up government protected monopolies and public/private partnership corporations. Whereas in the US, we'll just pass huge contracts to private enterprises that essentially do the same thing. The people awarding the contracts have the same effect as working for the enterprises that receive them.

The corporations have a stranglehold on business that is even stronger than in the US. So in terms of government, it is for sure less centralized. However, corporations more than make up for it.

Anonymous dh May 16, 2013 9:46 AM  

And how many of them still remain in Mexico

Waves of them. Best analogy I can think of: half of people who watch the American Idol show vote for a winner. But just as many who watch the show don't vote. Half the audience is too lazy and apathetic to fulfill the primary purpose of the exercise.

The one's who vote are like the Mexicans who come to the US.

Anonymous wcu May 16, 2013 9:47 AM  

I think all the millions of mexicans who scampered across our borders over the many past decades along with us exporting some of our manufacturing base has boosted them from 3rd to 2nd status...yeah us...the only place in sub saharan africa approaching 2nd world is south africa, but that ain't looking like its gonna hold too much longer...all the rest are varying degrees of 3rd.

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 9:50 AM  

"So .... if things go unstable you're advocating the importation of a large number of people who are prone to gang behavior, anti-white racism, and beheadings right before it happens?"

I'm pointing out the reality of the situation. I am not scared of gang behavior nor am I scared of folks prone to beheading.

I am perfectly happy to take the responsibility to defend myself and my property.

I don't want the government to save me.

Regardless... they are being imported regardless of your feelings on the matter. In the end... it appears the US Government's influence will shrink. Like it or not.

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 9:51 AM  

If you were to break up the earth into terms like 1st world, 2nd world, and 3rd world, and employ something like GDP to parce the nations into the categories... Mexico would be one of the first two categories.

that said... the original use of the terms first world and third world... had nothing to do with economics.

Anonymous wcu May 16, 2013 9:52 AM  

Its always pleasant while driving to work to be scalded with immigration ads from rubio. He goes from chest thumping while conversely head patting his audience with his "toughest immigration policy in the world" then going to "but still measured and compassionate..." message...ahh, the smell of bullshite in the early afternoon traffic jam.

Anonymous VryeDenker May 16, 2013 9:56 AM  

If Mexico is third world, what is most of Africa, fourth or fifth world?

I suggest (without any snarky sarcasm -snarkasm?) that you look up the origins of the concept.

The West is the 1st world, The old soviet bloc was the 2nd world and the rest were the 3rd world. the 4th world was tacked on to refer to people without political representation like the San bushmen.

Blogger Shimshon May 16, 2013 9:59 AM  

As I once posted on LXer (http://www.lxer.com), a Linux oriented news aggregator/discussion site, from memory: "I'm merely glad to have lived in one of the better times and places in human history, and I mourn its inevitable passing."

Yeah, this. I was telling my kids recently about coming of age in the 1970s (born in 1966). How my elementary school yard wasn't even fenced in. It was wide open and completely unsupervised during non-school hours when I was young. How I was into model rocketry at the time, and my 10 year old self, with my eight year old brother in tow, took my model rockets and would launch them from the schoolyard on weekends or in the summer. Today it's probably illegal just to think about doing that. And that was already a pale imitation of the freedom my parent's generation enjoyed. But it still was "one of the better times and places in human history".

Anonymous wcu May 16, 2013 10:00 AM  

Like most of the hispanics I dealt with growing up as a teenager and later as an adult, their parents aren't too bad...work hard, mind their own business for the most part. (When they aren't radically changing neighborhood and slurping up govt goodies).their children on the otherhand are usually assholah's to the 10th power...hate dealin with them gang bangers

Anonymous DonReynolds May 16, 2013 10:00 AM  

Welcome to Third World America. This is merely the smallest taste of what it is going to look like.

...IF WE DO NOTHING

What seem to be "unforeseen events" are not unexpected by everyone. Like a train wreck in slow motion, there may not be anything anyone can do to mitigate the outcome, but everyone can see where this is going. Ethnic cleansing was not invented by the Serbs.

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 10:02 AM  

"The West is the 1st world, The old soviet bloc was the 2nd world and the rest were the 3rd world. the 4th world was tacked on to refer to people without political representation like the San bushmen."

yes. but the concept needs to be rethought as now it is used in economic terms... terms of development... not alliance.

So like I said... if you look at GDP per capita... Mexico is right there with Turkey and Poland. Lightyears ahead of most of south america, central america, and africa. If it were based on economics and development Mexico would be high second if not first world.

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 10:04 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Will Best May 16, 2013 10:04 AM  

He believes that they won't be content to tend the yards and pools of the 2% and will start demanding the jobs middle class America depends on. They will use the full force of the ACLU, the Labor Department and La Raza to demand those jobs.

They already have the middle class jobs. I think every roofing crew and concrete team I have seen in the last 5-6 years is Mexican. It won't be long before everybody painting houses will be Mexican. They are increasing their share of mover, and delivery jobs. If they wanted any more than they have now they would either 1) need to learn English; or 2) demand we learn Spanish.

Anonymous mjb May 16, 2013 10:14 AM  

I for one welcome our new taco overlords.

Anonymous mjb May 16, 2013 10:16 AM  

,...,

Anonymous Rantor May 16, 2013 10:19 AM  

Mexico is doing OK, but it seems they use the US for their welfare program... it isn't the rich or middle class Mexicans who tend to come here looking for work

Anonymous DonReynolds May 16, 2013 10:20 AM  

mjb..."I for one welcome our new taco overlords."

Lucky you! You do not have to wait any longer. Just move to Mexico...and begin to enjoy the joy of your new masters today. (Trust me. You will not want to be here in the meantime.)

Since you are one of the Quislings that welcome the invaders, you already know what to expect when the invaders are driven out....and they will be, I can assure you. Best if you go with them.


Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 10:21 AM  

"Since you are one of the Quislings that welcome the invaders, you already know what to expect when the invaders are driven out....and they will be, I can assure you."

yes yes... because that happens SO often in human history.

Blogger JartStar May 16, 2013 10:28 AM  

Once the Obamacare train wreck plows into the station in the next year or two I think that Mexico will be very happy to send thousands upon thousands more into the US for medical care.

"Now, there are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false," Obama said. "The reforms I am proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."

But if there's Amnesty then they aren't here illegally! Then the fun begins: "estimate that about half of the eligible illegal immigrants would be eligible for Medicaid, and the other half would be qualified for the subsidized exchange benefits." What kind of fool would stay in Mexico and not take advantage of this if you needed medical care?

Blogger IM2L844 May 16, 2013 10:29 AM  

If it were based on economics and development Mexico would be high second if not first world.

Last time I looked at Mexico's GDP:Employment numbers, they looked in better shape than the U.S.

Anonymous mjb May 16, 2013 10:48 AM  

DonReynolds, why do you hate tacos so much?

Anonymous dh May 16, 2013 10:52 AM  

They already have the middle class jobs. I think every roofing crew and concrete team I have seen in the last 5-6 years is Mexican. It won't be long before everybody painting houses will be Mexican. They are increasing their share of mover, and delivery jobs. If they wanted any more than they have now they would either 1) need to learn English; or 2) demand we learn Spanish.

You pretty have it nailed. There was a time not long ago where a nice middle or lower-middle class job was a job that you did on a roof, with a paintbrush, or with a mop and broom, with a sewing machine.

Constant influx of new workers drives down wages. Free trade creates throw away products with no skilled service economy around it.

Anonymous Toby Temple May 16, 2013 11:04 AM  

Aren't we using developed nations for first world countries and developing nations for non-first world countries today?

Blogger James Dixon May 16, 2013 11:08 AM  

> Aren't we using developed nations for first world countries and developing nations for non-first world countries today?

In modern terms? Sort of.

As best I can tell by noting usage, the modern terms are:

Developed = First World
Developing = Second World
Undeveloped (think most of southern Africa) = Third world.

Blogger JartStar May 16, 2013 11:13 AM  

Free trade creates throw away products with no skilled service economy around it.

Much faster than I thought possible manufacturing is starting to come back to the US even though the damage has been done. Offshoring and outsourcing isn't a attractive as it once was and it was never as attractive as it was made out to be.

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 11:16 AM  

Mexico is developed. It would therefore be first world. Hell their electrical grid I'd more stable than california's

Anonymous A. Objectivist May 16, 2013 11:19 AM  

Well, at least we've got the Christians on our side ... to put their bible-thumping ways to protect what's left of America and capitalism...

Oh ...wait ... what's this:

Pope Francis urges global leaders to end 'tyranny' of money

He said free-market capitalism had created a “tyranny” and that human beings were being judged purely by their ability to consume goods.

Money should be made to “serve” people, not to “rule” them, he said,.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/10061700/Pope-Francis-urges-global-leaders-to-end-tyranny-of-money.html

Ayn Rand was right. Scratch a Christian and find Leftist. Your bible was communist way before Karl Marx.

will you listen to your commie pope/church/god... or will you side with liberty and capitalism? Sadly, I know the answer...



Anonymous Toby Temple May 16, 2013 11:21 AM  

A. Objectivist. Another morass.

Blogger IM2L844 May 16, 2013 11:24 AM  

Sadly, I know the answer...

I don't think so. Ayn Rand was wrong.

God-centric objectivism and humanism-centric objectivism can't be conflated (commingled).

Anonymous RINO May 16, 2013 11:31 AM  

You people are worrying about the nation turning into mexico.. when Mexico would be a significant improvement.

But what is to say that it would be a direct replication of Mexico? The hispanics here have been getting accustomed to a white liberal progressive system of entitlement and intrusive government. I'd worry about something that resembles the worst of both worlds.

Anonymous Vidad May 16, 2013 11:33 AM  

@Shimshon

"I was telling my kids recently about coming of age in the 1970s (born in 1966). How my elementary school yard wasn't even fenced in. It was wide open and completely unsupervised during non-school hours when I was young. How I was into model rocketry at the time, and my 10 year old self, with my eight year old brother in tow, took my model rockets and would launch them from the schoolyard on weekends or in the summer."

When I was 11 and my brother was 8, we did the exact same thing at the middle school a few blocks from us. Right around 1990. Times have indeed changed...

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 11:40 AM  

in the early 90s... I carried a knife at school every day. I once used it to trim my finger nails during a presentation in front of an english class.

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 11:41 AM  

" I'd worry about something that resembles the worst of both worlds."

That's because you're a worrier by nature... or a pussy... however you wish to be described... its really the same thing. Ultimately you're scared that your comfortable little life will not be maintained for you by the government.

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 11:43 AM  

"Money should be made to “serve” people, not to “rule” them, he said,.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/10061700/Pope-Francis-urges-global-leaders-to-end-tyranny-of-money.html"

The global financial system isn't capitalism you blithering idiot. The pope is criticizing fascism... not capitalism.

Blogger James Dixon May 16, 2013 11:49 AM  

> in the early 90s... I carried a knife at school every day.

In the 70's, many of the boys in our classes would bring their rifles with them to school during hunting season. And we had a hunter safety course as an elective in which you actually got to shoot a rifle on school property.

Anonymous Josh May 16, 2013 11:51 AM  

Pope Francis urges global leaders to end 'tyranny' of money

He said free-market capitalism had created a “tyranny” and that human beings were being judged purely by their ability to consume goods.


Is our current monetary system a free market one? If not, who is he really criticizing?

That's right...the banksters...

Now go back to using atlas shrugged as a masturbatory aid.

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 11:51 AM  

"In the 70's, many of the boys in our classes would bring their rifles with them to school during hunting season."

yep. we had rifles in our trucks.

Anonymous Noah B. May 16, 2013 11:54 AM  

I sold an SKS to the school resource officer.

Anonymous mjb May 16, 2013 11:54 AM  

Actually, I have no issues with the Pope's statement. At least here in NJ, the atheists and non-Christians, and even some Christians, have this attitude of keeping up with the Joneses. They kill themselves going after the almighty dollar, two parents working full time jobs, kids in daycare all day, and a mortgage that straps them down to a life of debt.

They made the dollar their ruler. Their God.

Blogger Old Harry May 16, 2013 11:57 AM  

There is huge difference between the communal living the Jerusalem church did in the first century and Communism. Marx's manifesto is incompatible with biblical Christianity.
Also, if you look at Paul's epistles, you will see that Jerusalem's foray into communal living didn't work out as planned.

Anonymous Vic May 16, 2013 11:58 AM  

"will you listen to your commie pope/church/god... or will you side with liberty and capitalism?"

Thou shalt not steal. If a man refuses to work let him not eat.

The words of a commie I tell ya!

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 12:01 PM  

"I sold an SKS to the school resource officer."

nice.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian May 16, 2013 12:02 PM  

A Objectivist?
A Man?
A Tad?

Here is yet another persona?

Anonymous Peter Garstig May 16, 2013 12:05 PM  

If it were based on economics and development Mexico would be high second if not first world.

Well, it probably depends if we include debt. If only the debate would be over, the we could know.

Anonymous Clay May 16, 2013 12:08 PM  

I'd like to nominate Grand Funk Railroad, simply on the basis of two songs: "We're An American Band", & "Some Kind Of Wonderful".

Can I get a witness?

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 12:09 PM  

"Well, it probably depends if we include debt. If only the debate would be over, the we could know."

Take a good look at the list of crap Vox has going right now on the sidebar. There is a very good reason why the debate has been postponed. The guy is a freaking workaholic. He's covered up.

He's not mailing it in. He's not lazy. Hell its a miracle he even keeps up with this blog at all.

Blogger James Dixon May 16, 2013 12:09 PM  

Wrong thread, Clay. :)

Anonymous patrick kelly May 16, 2013 12:10 PM  

Guess I'm an Objectheist : I don't believe human objectivity exists. It is a modern, enlightenment/humanist myth.

I do think objective truth exists, I'm just skeptical about any human having the ability to objectively observe and discover it. Of course that is only my subjective opinion.........




Blogger John Williams May 16, 2013 12:10 PM  

Aren't the breakdowns: Old World, New World and Third World?

Maybe the old definitions don't apply anymore. That's what I think.

Anonymous Clay May 16, 2013 12:10 PM  

Yeah. I just figgered that out......

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 12:17 PM  

"Aren't the breakdowns: Old World, New World and Third World?"

No.

The old definitions applied to allies and treaties. NATO was first world... the US the UK and their allies. China and Russia and their allies were second world. Third world countries were neutral.

Which is why I pointed out Switzerland was a third world country.

Anonymous patrick kelly May 16, 2013 12:19 PM  

"will you listen to your commie pope/church/god... or will you side with liberty and capitalism? "

Yeah, we Christians make such good commies that Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot wanted to kill or imprison us......

Just like Mr. AO, they couldn't stand other people acknowledging a different god than theirs, tho' they may not use the word god or divine, they make idols out of the state, party, cult of Ayn, or some other ideology, and have faith in their version of human utopia if they could just get rid of everyone who doesn't see things their way.


Blogger John Williams May 16, 2013 12:36 PM  

Thanks Nate.

Sarcastically, I'll propose this breakdown: Countries I'd like to live in, Countries I'd like to visit, Countries I never ever want to go to.

It just occurred to me that one could apply those categories to women as well.

Anonymous RINO May 16, 2013 12:37 PM  

That's because you're a worrier by nature... or a pussy... however you wish to be described... its really the same thing. Ultimately you're scared that your comfortable little life will not be maintained for you by the government.

Actually it's being maintained by whatever is left of Anglo/Western civilization. Meanwhile you advocate the accelerated arrival of the post-Western, post-Christian world for some hypothetical ability to get sudafed more easily.

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 12:48 PM  

" Meanwhile you advocate the accelerated arrival of the post-Western, post-Christian world for some hypothetical ability to get sudafed more easily."

I'm advocating the outcome. Smaller less intrusive government.

America /= Western Civilization

Romans probably thought Western Civilization was over too. They weren't correct anymore than you are.

Blogger LP2021 May 16, 2013 12:51 PM  

While Rubio seems good and well meaning he no Savior of the repubs. His way here cannot satisfy the countless states that have experienced the the downside of free trade/unemployment, immigration and the cultural fallout that has followed.

Anonymous mjb May 16, 2013 12:51 PM  

OT, but haha and hell yeah:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2325414/Men-physically-strong-likely-right-wing-political-views.html

Anonymous Jack Amok May 16, 2013 1:01 PM  

that said... the original use of the terms first world and third world... had nothing to do with economics.

True, but most of the countries that weren't part of either bloc were left out because they didn't have anything particularly worth fighting for (Switzerland would be an exception). I suspect that's why "Third World" has come to mean "Economic Basket Case" today - most of the original third world countries were, are, probably always will be, economic basket cases.

Of course, given most of the "first world's" economic performance of late, if we want to recalibrate based on economics, we'll have to go with:

1st world - economically screwed up this way.
2nd world - economically screwed up that way.
3rd world - economically screwed up both ways.

Anonymous Crispy May 16, 2013 1:03 PM  

So which "world" is the UK with its economic and political issues? Not to mention immigration:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10061217/Imams-promote-grooming-rings-Muslim-leader-claims.html

You people are worrying about the nation turning into mexico.. when Mexico would be a significant improvement.

Many of the illegal immigrants were born in Central America or South America, not just Mexico. The members of the middle and upper classes in Mexico are not particularly interested in sneaking across the border. Not surprisingly, Fred Reed has an opinion about this:

http://www.fredoneverything.net/Amnesty.shtml

Anonymous JohnR May 16, 2013 1:08 PM  

Read Fred Reed's latest and enjoy the pictures of Mexico that look better than Detroit...

America is dying. Europe is dead.

Anonymous JohnR May 16, 2013 1:09 PM  

Crispy beat me to it

Anonymous wcu May 16, 2013 1:11 PM  

The early church had nothing to do with communism whatsoever...check out ananias and sapphires sometime...

Blogger Scott May 16, 2013 1:22 PM  

As Dennis Miller noted, at this rate, Obama is going to admit he was born in Kenya sometime next week.

After reading Dreams from My Real Father I'm inclined to believe Obama's last name should really be Davis. There's enough evidence to make a reasonable case and to me it makes logical sense; the pieces fit together nicely from all perspectives. So in my view the Kenya thing is and has always been a convenient distraction.

Anonymous redsash May 16, 2013 1:32 PM  

Spot on insight V man. You're pretty good at detecting those whose synapses just don't fire quite right. I originally had positive feelings toward Senators Rubio and Paul, and on lots of issues I agree with them, but both seem to have bought into the false premise that you can't sent 12 to 20 million illegals packing. They are incapable of, or maybe simply refuse to recognize the power of the boot, the bullet, and the will.

Give the illegals 90 days to get their affairs in order and to leave. With no recourse to the courts, after 90 days, identify, arrest, and exile to one of the Aleutian islands, along with confiscation of all assets those who knowingly or unknowingly hire them. Produce a small bounty ($500 or more) for those who identify an illegal alien. For six months have the auditing branches of the IRS and state labor agencies identify the illegals and those who employ them. Have all of BATF, Federal Marshalls, DEA, ICE, and a goodly portion of the FBI enforce the above. Repeat the above as needed. Landmine the border, forget the damn fence, problem solved.

Blogger WATYF May 16, 2013 1:41 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger WATYF May 16, 2013 1:42 PM  

OT: Speaking of being unable to follow logic...

Utah school curriculum teaches kids to address social issues by using emotional rhetoric to manipulate people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGph7QHzmo8

Homeschool or..... be liberal??

WATYF

Anonymous RINO May 16, 2013 1:55 PM  

For six months have the auditing branches of the IRS and state labor agencies identify the illegals and those who employ them. Have all of BATF, Federal Marshalls, DEA, ICE, and a goodly portion of the FBI enforce the above.

You think the government should defend its people from invasion? You tyrant!

Anonymous Daybreaker May 16, 2013 1:58 PM  

Vox Day nailed this one. The truth is horribly simple.

Anonymous Daybreaker May 16, 2013 2:00 PM  

WATYF: "Homeschool or..... be liberal??"
-
Why the question marks?

Blogger LP2021 May 16, 2013 2:04 PM  

OT: there is a report floating around today that 2 possible terrorists in some kind of ID protection program have gone missing. Is this is the next F Flag and why would the American care if two alleged terrorists skipped town? Apparently, the current admin and the Turkish leader had a WH press conf.

Anonymous Noah B. May 16, 2013 2:10 PM  

Maybe the Justice Department will prosecute itself under the RICO laws.

Anonymous Stilicho May 16, 2013 2:20 PM  

both seem to have bought into the false premise that you can't sent 12 to 20 million illegals packing.

The thing about catch and release programs is that you increase the population be it fish or foreigners.

Easy enough to deny them all welfare, offer them 1st class tickets to Mexico City if they'll leave, fine anyone employing them $50,000 per illegal, per year (call it a tax!), no citizenship or voting rights (ever)for any illegal or child born here of illegals, etc. What we lack is political will.

Anonymous dh May 16, 2013 2:24 PM  

After reading Dreams from My Real Father I'm inclined to believe Obama's last name should really be Davis.

Really? What was the most persuasive piece of evidence? I was not moved. (But the book was well written).

Anonymous Skillet May 16, 2013 2:25 PM  

Mexico has a ton of potential. I think the biggest thing holding them back is corruption, both on local and national levels. The narcos really make it bad. But then again, our gubment is pretty rotten too. And if it werent for all the demand in the US for those drugs we insist on outlawing, the narcos would be out of business.

Anonymous FP May 16, 2013 2:31 PM  

"ahh, the smell of bullshite in the early afternoon traffic jam."

I sure hope El Rushbo is getting well paid. They're playing that damn Rubio ad during his show everyday, multiple times. The tagline being "no reform is de facto amnesty!" or something similar.

Anonymous FP May 16, 2013 2:33 PM  

"Mexico has a ton of potential."

Yeah, sure you betcha. If someone else moved it maybe. A great place in many ways but until they get past hacienda feudalism, it ain't going anywhere.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian May 16, 2013 2:53 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian May 16, 2013 2:54 PM  

The "Fred On Everything" article, linked ( http://www.fredoneverything.net/Amnesty.shtml ) above, is a mess.

Anonymous Stilicho May 16, 2013 3:09 PM  

The "Fred On Everything" article, linked ( http://www.fredoneverything.net/Amnesty.shtml ) above, is a mess.

Indeed. Summary: you can't stop the mingle.

Blogger Scott May 16, 2013 3:36 PM  

Really? What was the most persuasive piece of evidence?

The book is replete with damning information, a lot of it directly connecting Davis, Ann Dunham (his mom), and Obama. It's been several months since I read it, but I'd say the nude photos of his mother, then a teen, at Davis' house are pretty convincing. But even without them it all comes together with the pregnancy, the proximity, the questionable shotgun wedding to the Kenyan Obama, the quick departure of Ann Dunham, the non-relationship between them, the frequent visits of Barack and his grandfather to Davis' house (why else?). Also Obama's continued relationship with Davis and sharing of ideals: radical socialism/communism and racism.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian May 16, 2013 3:37 PM  

Not what I meant. Stilicho. Though, yes, it is hard to stop the mingle.

Fred states several things that are fabrications.

What, precisely, do folk opposed to immigration want to do? Set up extermination camps? It has been done, and got terrible reviews. Will we have the army push fifty-seven million people across the Mexican border at bayonet point—including huge numbers who are American citizens? A fair number of them since 1848?

Here he goes with the Gay Mustachio argument. Then he follows up with the get rid of all of them since 1848. I have yet to hear anyone make this argument (get rid of all here since 1848). We might as well go with my anecdotal observation that the some of the most vocal opponents against a new amnesty are precisely those of mexican descent that have been here for (legal immigrated several generations ago, or, as some here in Texas, have been here since the Texas Revolution and are truly native) a good while.

Both speak good English, but Spanish at home, which I suppose makes it their primary language, and this conservatives find threatening. I am not sure why.

Most conservatives would be happy if they spoke good english, and would not care what they spoke at home.

He sets up strawmen and knocks them down.

There are things to like about Fred's writing, but this one is a mess and is weak.

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 3:39 PM  

'Yeah, sure you betcha. If someone else moved it maybe. A great place in many ways but until they get past hacienda feudalism, it ain't going anywhere.'

By no where you mean.. the 7th largest economy in the world by 2020?

Hey... what does Goldman Sachs know...

Anonymous allyn71 May 16, 2013 3:44 PM  

Rubio is a fool that is getting played by Chucky Schumer and friends. He can't think it through and see that this bill is intended to destroy this country because he doesn't have the intellect to get past checkers. He is 2d in a 3d world.

Schumer et al. took his ignornace combined with ambition to offer him the rope he would hang himself with. In the process they kill off a potential presidential competitor by forcing him against the base on a wedge issue.

Since its founding the US has been the largest obstacle to world-wide government controlled by an elite. That example of individual liberty can not be allowed to stand as a comparison to statism. The undermining the institutions that support individual liberty has always been priority #1. The statist have realized one way to accomplish this is to breed and crowd out the historical consticuencies.

You don't keep producing Lipizzaner Stallions if you throw them out to pasture in the middle of a herd of 10,000 mustangs.

Anonymous Dr. Idle Spectator, Stanford Statistician May 16, 2013 3:47 PM  

I am more than a little familiar with the Mexican economy, it is far more fascist than the US economy, but less centrally controlled. They love straight up government protected monopolies and public/private partnership corporations. Whereas in the US, we'll just pass huge contracts to private enterprises that essentially do the same thing. The people awarding the contracts have the same effect as working for the enterprises that receive them.

No kidding. Look at the national oil company Petróleos Mexicanos (Pemex) or how Carlos Slim got his fortune in telephones. It might be a throw-back to the Mexican Revolution with the nationalization. Can't say I really blame them on that one.

But if there's Amnesty then they aren't here illegally! Then the fun begins: "estimate that about half of the eligible illegal immigrants would be eligible for Medicaid, and the other half would be qualified for the subsidized exchange benefits." What kind of fool would stay in Mexico and not take advantage of this if you needed medical care?

Exactly. If you give out free food, don't be surprised if people show up for free food. I think even elementary school children understand this concept.

Read Fred Reed's latest and enjoy the pictures of Mexico that look better than Detroit...

America is dying. Europe is dead.


That's because Detroit is full of black people and Mexico is full of Mexicans. There, I said it.

The "Fred On Everything" article, linked ( http://www.fredoneverything.net/Amnesty.shtml ) above, is a mess.

I ripped that column apart a while ago. His new column up, however, is much, much better.

Fred is 100% correct on that point of the IQ Wealth of Nations. The work is basically... incomplete. IQ is not the only thing you need to look at. I remember I posted this before regarding the Chechens. You need to put other traits on a bell curve (normal distribution) too besides just IQ.

I don't think it is a real stretch to say that Latin Americans are far more impulsive on average than Germans or Scandinavians. That has consequences for economic development. I mean, look how the EU ended up. Neurotic Germans supporting Impulsive Greeks? That went over REAL well.

Why did Fred skip Uruguay though? Did he run out of room? That is the wealthiest country in Latin America. Coincidentally, it is beside Buenos Aires, one of Latin America's finest cities that he mentioned in the column. It is also the whitest at 88% white, with less than 1% Amerindian. What a complete shocker! Ecuador, Peru, and Bolivia with the highest Amerindian populations have some of the worst development.

He's also right about the term "Hispanic" being misleading. Which type?

Blogger JaimeInTexas May 16, 2013 4:26 PM  

The sharing was voluntary. The passage in Acts refers to an accomodation based on specific historical circumstances. The only ones that are scratched and shown to be Marxists are Liberation Theology proponents, not Christians.

Anonymous Dr. Idle Spectator, Mesoamerican Studies May 16, 2013 4:46 PM  

Let's now turn our attention to Guatemala. I do this because: it is right next to Mexico, Mexico is having immigration and border problems with Guatemala, a lot of Guatemalans are illiterate in both English and Spanish, and it gives you an idea of how misleading the term "Hispanic" is.

Guatemalan ethnic groups:

Mestizo (aka Ladino) and European 59.4%
K'iche (Mayan) 9.1%
Kaqchikel (Mayan) 8.4%
Mam (Mayan) 7.9%
Q'eqchi (Mayan) 6.3%

Other Mayan Groups 8.6%
Achi
Akatek
Awakatek
Ch'orti'
Chuj
Itza
Ixil
Jakaltek
Mopan
Poqomam
Poqomchi'
Q’anjob’al
Q'eqchi'
Sakapultek
Tektitek
Tz'utujil
Uspantek

Indigenous non-Mayan 0.2%
Alaguilac
Pipil
Xinca

Other 0.1%

Now in theory, a Alaguilac person living along the Motagua River in eastern Guatemala is a "Hispanic" just like a wealthy Cuban living in Miami, Florida is.

Does anyone actually buy that?

Blogger WATYF May 16, 2013 5:32 PM  

WATYF: "Homeschool or..... be liberal??"
-
Why the question marks?


It's a rhetorical question, and a play off of Vox's "Homeschool or die" meme.

WATYF

Anonymous Daniel May 16, 2013 5:40 PM  

Things are turning around! Obama just appointed Danny Wuerffel as head of the IRS! As long as he does to the tax code what he did to the Seminoles, we are going to be sitting pretty in no time flat.

Anonymous Michael Falk May 16, 2013 6:01 PM  

What's this about a train?

Blogger Nate May 16, 2013 6:02 PM  

The train is fine.

Anonymous Idle Spectator, Mexican't May 16, 2013 6:33 PM  

Rubio better watch his Cuban ass.

Mexican Diego Fernandez de Cevallos freed by kidnappers

Diego Fernandez de Cevallos was a presidential candidate in 1994 and also president of the Mexican Senate. "The Prosecutor's Office had halted its investigation on the request of Mr. Fernandez de Cevallos' family, who said they wanted "space to negotiate with the kidnappers." Now that is playing with power.

I can't wait till political kidnapping like that comes to the United States with more immigration! Of course if you live in Phoenix or Los Angeles you probably already bumped into a scaled down version of it.

Anonymous Susan May 16, 2013 6:35 PM  

Nate, I agree with your basic political theory on Mexico, but until they get their hygiene problems as a nation solved, they are still a third world country by just about anyone's standards. Spoken by someone who lives in an illegal infested state.

Anonymous realmatt May 16, 2013 6:56 PM  

I don't care if they share religious or political beliefs. I just don't want to deal with too many non-whites.

It's that simple and always has been.

Anonymous Porky May 16, 2013 7:01 PM  

A friend moved to a wealthy enclave in Mexico. Lots of rich American and European retirees. Just moved back to the US when heads in styrofoam coolers started showing up in town.

Anonymous FP May 16, 2013 7:01 PM  

Nate: "By no where you mean.. the 7th largest economy in the world by 2020?"

Well, when Europe, US and Japan crash they'll have a shot then. If they can keep their current (narco) civil war under control. I'm sure border issues with Guatemala and Chiapas state won't be a problem at all.

IS: "Ecuador, Peru, and Bolivia with the highest Amerindian populations have some of the worst development."

Fred's comparison of Lima with Santiago and Buenos Aires brought forth a chuckle when I read it. Fujimori and the Shining Path are forgotten history apparently.

Anonymous realmatt May 16, 2013 7:15 PM  

I do admit that I prefer Mexicans and the like to Caribbean Hispanics. They're the most worthless form of Hispanic on the planet. Especially the ones born and raised here. Nothing annoys me more than their god awful accent while speaking Spanish, a language they don't even speak fluently and switch back and forth between English all the time. It makes me sick.

Anonymous Dr. Idle Spectator, Peruvian Studies May 16, 2013 7:21 PM  

Chiapas state won't be a problem at all.

I completely forgot about those guys down there. I don't blame them. They've been eating a shit sandwich from Mexico for too long. They were basically serfs up until the Mexican Revolution. Zorro! Zorro!

Peru is an odd one in Latin America. It's like half great, half shit.

Fred's comparison of Lima with Santiago and Buenos Aires brought forth a chuckle when I read it. Fujimori and the Shining Path are forgotten history apparently.

Alberto Fujimori is Peruvian Japanese. What a strange coincidence that someone of Asian descent ends up dominating a Latin American country. How weird.

Shining Path... didn't they ship those Maoist guys off to that Yanamayo Prison high in the Andes Mountains?

Anonymous E. PERLINE May 16, 2013 8:47 PM  

This week, we all had a good time, rubbernecking thru those bad patches like the IRS, etc.

But is anybody looking ahead? I still think the US is heading for that cliff.

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick May 16, 2013 9:05 PM  

OT: How has Vox not yet posted on the study that indicates that physically stronger men are more likely to hold right leaning views?

Anonymous rycamor May 16, 2013 9:28 PM  

Nate May 16, 2013 6:02 PM

The train is fine.


Yes, now that the blood and human refuse has been hosed off.

Anonymous zen0 May 16, 2013 9:56 PM  

Porky May 16, 2013 7:01 PM

A friend moved to a wealthy enclave in Mexico. Lots of rich American and European retirees. Just moved back to the US when heads in styrofoam coolers started showing up in town.


At least they care enough to put them in coolers. The meat for the meat shop shows up in the back of a toyota pickup. At least it has a canopy to keep some of the new dust off it. I guess its ok cuz it is about 7 am so it is only 70 or 72 degrees.

What could go wrong?

Anonymous rycamor May 16, 2013 10:29 PM  

zen0 May 16, 2013 9:56 PM

Porky May 16, 2013 7:01 PM

A friend moved to a wealthy enclave in Mexico. Lots of rich American and European retirees. Just moved back to the US when heads in styrofoam coolers started showing up in town.

At least they care enough to put them in coolers. The meat for the meat shop shows up in the back of a toyota pickup. At least it has a canopy to keep some of the new dust off it. I guess its ok cuz it is about 7 am so it is only 70 or 72 degrees.

What could go wrong?


And yet, it is still probably better for you than the antiseptic, ammonia-washed, pink-slime-glued hormone-pumped crap you can buy in the typical American grocery store.

Anonymous Daybreaker May 16, 2013 11:38 PM  

WATYF: "It's a rhetorical question, and a play off of Vox's "Homeschool or die" meme."
-
Thanks.

"Homeschool or die" is correct of course.

Anonymous A Visitor May 17, 2013 12:13 AM  

Having been to the 3rd world south of the border enough, I can assure you it will end badly for the U.S. Period.

When I was 11 and my brother was 8, we did the exact same thing at the middle school a few blocks from us. Right around 1990. Times have indeed changed...

I used to trespass on people's land back in the '90s and launch model rockets. My brother and I went paintballing there one night and almost got shot by a sheriff's deputy. True story.

Blogger Doom May 17, 2013 1:19 AM  

He only fails the test if you impose, you know, logic. He seems to be the sort of politician who is basing his actions on things other than logic, so you can't fault him for bleating populism when that works, and trying his hand at ill logic when that suits his wants.

What amazes me about minorities, to include the majority minority (women), is that they choose their own right over the best interests of their own. I mean, black politicians are generally hard core pro-aborts. They have eliminated much of their electoral potential. Women don't do that quite as directly as a group, there will always be a slight majority of women, but what the feminists have done is to ensure feminists end in a generation, save for a few fan girls coat-tail hangers-on that veer off the trail long enough to squat a couple of noise-makers.

Divine tragedy, or comedy dark as it may be. It is, in the darkest recesses of the darkest part of my heart... a secret evil little joy. *squirt* Ahhhh! *squirt* Nothing like watching them do it to themselves, in unison, all to my ends, even the better ends if the means don't match up. Whatever. I'm... almost... done... *squirt, squirt*

Anonymous Van May 17, 2013 10:53 AM  

Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, but the Pope's blaming of free market capitalism leads me to believe he blames free market capitalism. Most regulars here know we don't truly have free market capitalism, but the Pope didn't seem to make this observation.

Blogger Nate May 17, 2013 10:58 AM  

US centric naval gazing always brings a chuckle.

Anonymous Van May 17, 2013 11:04 AM  

The definitions I was taught in the late 80s were a combination of government/economic system and level of economic development.

1st World: developed capitalist (or quasi-capitalist) representative governments
2nd World: developed communist
3rd/4th: levels of un(der)developed, regardless of government style
5th: lost cause/basket case (ex. Sudan)

Anonymous Van May 17, 2013 11:06 AM  

If that's in response to me, please elaborate.

Anonymous rycamor May 17, 2013 11:25 AM  

A Visitor May 17, 2013 12:13 AM

Having been to the 3rd world south of the border enough, I can assure you it will end badly for the U.S. Period.

When I was 11 and my brother was 8, we did the exact same thing at the middle school a few blocks from us. Right around 1990. Times have indeed changed...

I used to trespass on people's land back in the '90s and launch model rockets. My brother and I went paintballing there one night and almost got shot by a sheriff's deputy. True story.


It's funny that you juxtapose these comments. The modern USA is the epitome of hand-wringing overbearing nanny-state hysteria, while most of South and Latin America still has these sorts of boyish freedoms you guys are lamenting. I grew up in Colombia, for 7 of my most formative years, and I still think back wistfully to the rambunctious, unpredictable freer nature of the society. Yes, there was plenty of insanity and danger, but for these countries it is generally not the insanity and danger of a soulless bureaucracy empowered by technology and big business to enact their most precious dreams of absolute control over every aspect of your life. They are dangers that are much more easily avoided if you are just minimally astute and know which people to avoid, how to protect yourself, and how to structure your life. The dangerous elements of these societies do not try to reach into every nook and cranny of your life.

Point being, I tend to agree with Nate on this one. At this point the dream of free Anglo-Saxon America is over. The Anglos have done themselves in with their simpering, submissive-ape behavior. What is coming brings problems, poverty, conflict, but I suspect in the end we will be freer for it, and even possibly better off, because if our elites keep having their way, we will all be living in Orwell's 1984, or the world of THX 1138, which of course, leads eventually to Soylent Green. I don't care how "safe" such a world makes me, I just do.not.want.

Blogger Nate May 17, 2013 12:14 PM  

"If that's in response to me, please elaborate."

Its in response to all the drama queens suggesting that america is somehow better than the rest of the world and that latin influence is going to be the end of civilization.

Anonymous Van May 17, 2013 12:37 PM  

Nate-

So not my comment about the Pope. Couldn't make sense of it as a response, but it came immediately after on what seemed like a dead thread. Van-centric navel gazing?

To your point, change the population and you change the civilization. Replace the Japanese with Sudanese, and you have Sudan located in a nominal Japan. So, yeah, it matters. Maybe I'm not clear on your point, though; I skimmed a lot of the comments.

Anonymous civilServant May 17, 2013 1:16 PM  

Its in response to all the drama queens suggesting that america is somehow better than the rest of the world and that latin influence is going to be the end of civilization.

Influence goes both ways. Mexico et al without United States employment and welfare state safety valve would be quite different from what it is now. When that employment and welfare state become ineffective will latin influence upon the United States be positive?

In a certain California State University student lunchroom one may observe a large mural dedicated to the rise of the Mestizo in America. It includes a sculptor reshaping the Statue of Liberty (using a hammer and chisel) into some Aztec god.

Blogger Doom May 17, 2013 3:45 PM  

Van,

Oddly, or not, his thoughts on free market capitalism are much similar to the remarks I hear from academics. Typical low-info stuff, either sheep bleatings or propaganda, depends on the speaker. I am not sure about which this pope is yet. I am apologetic in this way, I believe he has a political office to fill, and they usually try to avoid politics while holding it. This is a political statement given by a politician, essentially, surrounded by rather hostile socialist countries as well. Most popes, as I have watched, essentially wash their hands of most political alliances, suggesting a pox on both (or all) their houses. I'm sort of waiting for this one to balance that statement, but he may well and truly be a believer if free "government" money. Time will tell.

Anonymous Idle Spectator, Mexican't May 17, 2013 6:06 PM  

Note the total lack of self-awareness in which rycamor fails to see that he is posting his comment in English. That means he was educated enough to either learn it as a first or second language, or be born into that social class.


I'd say that eliminates a good portion of Latin America and Colombia right there. You know, the very immigrants the US is getting in huge numbers. A lot of them do not even speak Spanish.


I laughed, I really did.

Its in response to all the drama queens suggesting that america is somehow better than the rest of the world and that latin influence is going to be the end of civilization.

No, it will just be some bastardized version of civilization. Who knows how it will turn out. If we're lucky, it will be like Italian City States fighting each other. If unlucky, like Assyria near the end before it dissolved.

In a certain California State University student lunchroom one may observe a large mural dedicated to the rise of the Mestizo in America. It includes a sculptor reshaping the Statue of Liberty (using a hammer and chisel) into some Aztec god.

How wonderful. Maybe then the head-chopping will start.

Anonymous rycamor May 17, 2013 8:17 PM  

Mi querido señor Espectador,

Es cierto que a mi Ingles y la cultura del Inglaterra tradicional es lo que prefiero. Pero con el certeza que ese mismo cultura no se puede preservar (y ese cultura no tienes los cojones), entonces las culturas Latino-Americanos son menos mal que muchos otros culturas en el mundo. Entiendes?

Anonymous Idle Spectator May 17, 2013 8:58 PM  

Talking about having balls... How very traditionally Latino-Americanos. Next you'll be talking about having a dance-off and a telenovela watching marathon.

Being excited about the fact that there are worse cultures than in Latin America is like being excited you have one leg working. "At least I'm not like that guy with both legs missing from diabetes." "We are better than Angola and Cameroon!" Chris Farley voice: Laddy-freakinnnng-dah.


Now try Portuguese, you Spanish peasant.

Anonymous rycamor May 17, 2013 10:00 PM  

Yeah, I'm excited about it. Now you're using left-wing debate tactics.

Anonymous Idle Spectator May 17, 2013 10:39 PM  

rycamor is excited. Watch out world, here comes pants.

You are the Latin Americanized. I believe they are way more left-wing there.


You know, if the drug mule is a fit, you must stuff it...

Anonymous Van May 18, 2013 9:30 PM  

Doom,

So far, I think the Pope has made somewhat conflicting statements. This last one was concerning, but we'll wait and see.

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