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Thursday, October 17, 2013

God is not mocked

I couldn't help but think of Galatians 6:7 when I read about the tragic death of this father on his misguided trek in remembrance of his dead son.  "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

I can't link to the story, for some reason, but the headline is: Oregon Father’s Memorial Trek Across Country Ends in a Family’s Second Tragedy. So you can probably find it on Google or wherever.

The American elites have declared that there is nothing wrong with what God calls abomination. The usual suspects will insist, in defiance of both traditional morality and secular logic, that there is no such thing as objective universal morality while simultaneously insisting that homosexuality normal and it is wrong to say otherwise.

But at the end of the day, God's Game, God's Rules. Are they arbitrary? Perhaps. So is the intentional grounding rule. That doesn't make them nonexistent and it doesn't mean we can safely ignore them, given that we are warned about what the wages of sin are.

That being said, I very much doubt that the grieving father was struck down by God simply because he was on a personal crusade to popularize the acceptance of a particular form of sin; the ironic malice involved tends to strike me as the handiwork of a very different supernatural being.

This is something many Christians don't seem to understand. Evil revels in grief, pain, and suffering. Not good. And not God.

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343 Comments:

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Blogger JohnG October 17, 2013 1:24 PM  

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour - 1P5:8.

Blogger Guitar Man October 17, 2013 1:25 PM  

Here you go

Anonymous Jeromus October 17, 2013 1:27 PM  

This is why John says, " Little children, keep yourselves from idols." The heart is an idol factory that will worship anything but God.

Anonymous Anonymous October 17, 2013 1:32 PM  

Is this about the guy who wanted to dribble a soccer ball to Brazil or some such nonsense and got killed about 100 miles from home because he was dribbling a soccer ball in the middle of a highway?

If so, God has a sense of humor. Killed for stupidity by stupidity.

Anonymous Salt October 17, 2013 1:33 PM  

The Bell tolls, and it tolls for thee.

Blogger JartStar October 17, 2013 1:33 PM  

Evil revels in grief, pain, and suffering. Not good. And not God.

Well said. It's one thing to predict that actions are going to lead to suffering, it's another to be gleeful at the suffering.

Anonymous Anonymous October 17, 2013 1:33 PM  

Thanks, Guitar Man. Not the same guy.

Anonymous Bah October 17, 2013 1:35 PM  

Bah, why is the most obscure and least harmful advocate of perversion struck down?

When is everyone in the TV and movie industry going to be run over by a truck, as they so richly deserve?

Anonymous George of the Hole October 17, 2013 1:36 PM  

The desire to insert one's wiener into another's poopy-hole is not something to be celebrated.

Anonymous a. scientist October 17, 2013 1:37 PM  

whatever, you ghouls. Tea Party "Christians" in this country would hang gay people from fences!

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 1:40 PM  

Your country needs more floral decoration.

Anonymous Nathan October 17, 2013 1:41 PM  

a. scientist,

Evidence, please. Last time I checked, the Tea Party was a much maligned movement based around the idea that government taxed too much and spent too much. So, supply proof. Feelings don't count.

Blogger RobertT October 17, 2013 1:43 PM  

Agreed. Well said. I personally have always had the opinion that God doesn't feel death is the tragic event that we humans do. After all, the only way out of this mess is through that door.

Blogger JartStar October 17, 2013 1:44 PM  

I personally have always had the opinion that God doesn't feel death is the tragic event that we humans do.

Jesus wept.

Anonymous a. scientist October 17, 2013 1:44 PM  

OK, tea-tard: Matthew Shepard.

Anonymous Anonymous October 17, 2013 1:44 PM  

a. scientist, I'm not a Tea Party Christian, but I'm open to hanging openly gay people from fences. Or trees. Or gallows.

Anonymous Josh October 17, 2013 1:47 PM  

OK, tea-tard: Matthew Shepard

Killed by his former lover and drug dealer.

Blogger Random October 17, 2013 1:49 PM  

a. scientist:

The Matthew Shepard that was killed during a meth deal gone bad? But hey, why not just tar your ideological enemies with whatever brush is handy, it's easier than living in the real world or dealing with those pesky facts.

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 1:49 PM  

http://arts.heraldtribune.com/2013-10-15/uncategorized/why-matthew-shepard-was-killed/

What about him?

Anonymous a. scientist October 17, 2013 1:49 PM  

Killed by homophobia. Killed by the same forces that bully kids every day in colleges and high schools. So much for their freedoms, eh tea tard?

Anonymous VD October 17, 2013 1:49 PM  

OK, tea-tard: Matthew Shepard.

A gay man murdered by another gay man. What does that have to do with either Christianity or the Tea Party. You're a short sketch in Dunning-Kruger.

Anonymous a. scientist October 17, 2013 1:52 PM  

If Jesus had been real, he's accept gays more than he would accept phony "christians" like the average American tea-tard. Go build your golden idol of Sarah palin instead, and don't sully the name of a mythological figure. You tards just got your asses kicked yesterday. Want more?

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 1:52 PM  

So much for their freedoms, eh tea tard?

Personally, I would have restrained him from using drugs.

Killed by homophobia. Killed by the same forces that bully kids every day in colleges and high schools.

No. What else you got?

Blogger Markku October 17, 2013 1:53 PM  

Rage Against the Facts. Haven't seen that one in a while.

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 1:54 PM  

If Jesus had been real, he's accept gays more than he would accept phony "christians" like the average American tea-tard. Go build your golden idol of Sarah palin instead, and don't sully the name of a mythological figure. You tards just got your asses kicked yesterday. Want more?

Aw. That's cute.

Anonymous farmer Tom October 17, 2013 1:56 PM  

a. scientist

Get your story right. You are uniformed.

The Book of Matt


Anonymous Sigyn October 17, 2013 1:56 PM  

Tea Party "Christians" in this country would hang gay people from fences!

What is wrong with you? How dare you make such an accusation?!

Even Tea Party "Christians" know that most fences wouldn't be high enough for that! You need lampposts, or tall trees. And none of those wimpy little saplings the libs like in their urban sprawl, either; I'm talking real, honest trees with sturdy branches.

Anonymous a. scientist October 17, 2013 1:57 PM  

It's only a short jump for christian fanatics to go from "struck down by god" to "I struck him down for god." History proves this right.As does the gleeful nature of this post.

Blogger Markku October 17, 2013 1:57 PM  

By the way, a. scientist is almost certainly Tad. Because previously there was "a. man" writing here, that fit perfectly in the Tad pseudonym continuum.

Anonymous Josh October 17, 2013 1:57 PM  

Personally, I would have restrained him from using drugs.

Commie

Anonymous farmer Tom October 17, 2013 1:57 PM  

looks like I made a spelling error

uninformed

Anonymous Josh October 17, 2013 1:58 PM  

By the way, a. scientist is almost certainly Tad. Because previously there was "a. man" writing here, that fit perfectly in the Tad pseudonym continuum.

I think you're correct

Anonymous Michael Maier October 17, 2013 1:59 PM  

a.retarded.scientist: OK, tea-tard: Matthew Shepard.

I spit on your deluded playing of the Matthew Shepard card ... and my playing the Jesse Dirkishing card trumps the Hell out of it. Every time I read anyone spouting Matthew Shepard idiocy,I post Jesse Dirkishing's name. Everyone should.

Piss off.

Anonymous Spoos in August October 17, 2013 1:59 PM  

When AIDS was raging through San Francisco, before HIV had been identified, they refused to shut down the bathhouses. Similarly, it was viewed as unconscionable to stop accepting blood donations from gay men, never mind the children with hemophilia that would die.

I'm all for tolerance, but that sort of behavior is unacceptable.

Anonymous fish October 17, 2013 1:59 PM  

Did Golf Pro adopt a new moniker and slightly more aggressive posting demeanor?

Anonymous Poe Hunter International October 17, 2013 1:59 PM  

Vox/Markku: your poes are becoming progressively transparent

Anonymous Sigyn October 17, 2013 2:01 PM  

It's only a short jump for christian fanatics to go from "struck down by god" to "I struck him down for god." History proves this right.As does the gleeful nature of this post.

Don't get too cocky, guy. The American Family Assocation just put you on their super-secret hit list. Don't make the Sisters of Mercy follow suit.

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 2:01 PM  

By the way, a. scientist is almost certainly Tad.

I figured, but really, what difference does it make?

Commie

What are you, racist?

It's only a short jump for christian fanatics to go from "struck down by god" to "I struck him down for god."

Is that like a yoga move or something?

Anonymous Nathan October 17, 2013 2:02 PM  

Matthew Shepard: Ten years prior to the founding of the Tea Party, under circumstances that bring doubt to the homophobia story. Even if we take his story at face value, this is not evidence.

Guess those feelings are getting in the way of logic and "science."

Anonymous Josh October 17, 2013 2:02 PM  

looks like I made a spelling error

That's obviously because you're a stupid uneducated tea party fundie...

Or Nate's using your handle

Anonymous kh123 October 17, 2013 2:02 PM  

Someone got a little too far into their wine cellar.

Maybe today's the anniversary of the hobo assault between Market and Geary.

Anonymous tiredofitall October 17, 2013 2:03 PM  

"The desire to insert one's wiener into another's poopy-hole is not something to be celebrated." - George of the Hole

Well if you're counting a woman's "poopy-hole", then you've obviously not been married for longer than ten years, or have never gone to Spring Break in Cancun.

Blogger Phoenician October 17, 2013 2:04 PM  

But God is mocked, or would be if It existed, every time an idiot Dipshit decides he speaks for It.

Matthew 7:15-23

Anonymous MalcolmS October 17, 2013 2:04 PM  

@JartStar

re: Jesus wept.

I have often thought that Jesus wept because he knew he would be snatching Lazarus from paradise and bringing him to this vale of tears - a situation he knew from personal experience.

Anonymous Stickwick October 17, 2013 2:04 PM  

If Jesus had been real, he's accept gays more than he would accept phony "christians" like the average American tea-tard. Go build your golden idol of Sarah palin instead, and don't sully the name of a mythological figure.

*sigh* It's just not the same anymore. Almost makes me nostalgic for the Chimpy McHitlerburton days, when guys like a. scientist were so incensed by Bu$Hitler that they made an artform out of cramming every possible cliched insult into one epic panty-twisting snarkified declaration. With their guy in office now, we just get half-assed, weak-tea stuff like the above.

Anonymous Huckleberry - est. 1977 October 17, 2013 2:05 PM  

tea tards

Aww, someone's on the OFA Memo List...

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 2:05 PM  



Then don't.

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 2:05 PM  

@ Phoenician

Anonymous Sigyn October 17, 2013 2:05 PM  

Well if you're counting a woman's "poopy-hole", then you've obviously...never gone to Spring Break in Cancun.

I see I didn't miss anything by staying home and studying.

Anonymous Susan October 17, 2013 2:06 PM  

Harald, That guy was dribbling from Seattle down to Brazil. He got hit by being stupid on a stretch of hwy 101(Oregon coast). You never, ever walk on that highway. It is not made for walkers, only cars.

Blogger Markku October 17, 2013 2:06 PM  

I have often thought that Jesus wept because he knew he would be snatching Lazarus from paradise and bringing him to this vale of tears

I think he wept because he was affected by the sorrow of those around him. After all, that sorrow was a real thing, even if it was based on those people not knowing all the facts.

Anonymous mentalgymnastics October 17, 2013 2:07 PM  

Hey morons, you can't wail and gnash your teeth that the liberals and gays are winning civilization on the one hand and dance on the next gay dude's grave saying God did it, because either God is letting them win or he's striking them down in righteous fury.

But not both. Idiots.

Anonymous fish October 17, 2013 2:09 PM  

Hey morons, you can't wail and gnash your teeth that the liberals and gays are winning civilization on the one hand and dance on the next gay dude's grave saying God did it, because either God is letting them win or he's striking them down in righteous fury.

Sure they can! Stickwick nailed it....they're just mailing it in these days.

Anonymous Anonymous October 17, 2013 2:10 PM  

It's only a short jump for christian fanatics to go from "struck down by god" to "I struck him down for god." History proves this right.As does the gleeful nature of this post.

Bwahahaha, gleeful? What?

Anonymous the bandit October 17, 2013 2:11 PM  

> When is everyone in the TV and movie industry going to be run over by a truck, as they so richly deserve?

Given the implications of Vox's post, I'd say not until they are less effective at advocating perversions. It's easy to sacrifice a pawn, but one likes to preserve one's rooks where possible, at least until the end game.

Anonymous kh123 October 17, 2013 2:11 PM  

...Actually, no. Attacks by the homeless and zombified aren't something to be taken lightly.

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 2:12 PM  

@ malcolmthecynic

He's trying his retarded Very Short Sentences That Mean Nothing So You Can Make A Lot of Effort For No Reason. I guess he gets bored. I would be if I were him.

Anonymous Giraffe October 17, 2013 2:14 PM  

re: Jesus wept.

I have often thought that Jesus wept because he knew he would be snatching Lazarus from paradise and bringing him to this vale of tears - a situation he knew from personal experience.


I've also heard it said that He wept because He had performed many miracles and they still didn't have the faith that He could raise him.

Anonymous Anonagain October 17, 2013 2:15 PM  

I'm thinking the blithering faggotard known as Golf Perv has a cunning plan to get around his blathering limit by posting as a. scientist.

Anonymous Giraffe October 17, 2013 2:15 PM  

whatever, you ghouls. Tea Party "Christians" in this country would hang gay people from fences!

Can anyone point me to a reason why it would be wrong to hang these evolutionary dead ends from fences?

Anonymous Alexander October 17, 2013 2:16 PM  

... did you miss out on actually reading Vox's post, mentalgymnast?

Anonymous kh123 October 17, 2013 2:17 PM  

"When is everyone in the TV and movie industry..."

Am assuming you work in it. You know, the whole "dancing on the boss' grave".

A better question would be: When are the viewers who financially vote for these helping of evening pudding going to be struck down? Where's their Dresden?

Anonymous milady October 17, 2013 2:19 PM  

I'm confused. How does that verse relate to the story or this post? Not that I don't understand you general point about the absoluteness of God's laws, it's just I wouldn't make the connections you're making.

And before I get attacked for not knowing the Bible or being Christian, etc. My grandfather was a minister, I grew up reading and studying the Bible regularly, and I have completed several classes on how to read/interpret the Bible. So I'm not Biblically ignorant and it's also why I'm genuinely interested in the answer. I enjoy these types of discussions and I rarely get to have them.

Anonymous Zion's Paladin October 17, 2013 2:22 PM  

Can anyone point me to a reason why it would be wrong to hang these evolutionary dead ends from fences?

Because fences wouldn't work to effectively hang someone?

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 2:22 PM  

It was a general perspective on the social climate. America et al. making a mockery of God's laws and authority by asserting that contrary to God's word, homosexuality is actually totally fine. Not necessarily specific to the dude in the article himself.

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 2:23 PM  

^
@ milady

Anonymous earl October 17, 2013 2:24 PM  

Or as it is in real life.

Ignorance of the law doesn't count.

Just because you don't know it is a sin...doesn't get rid of the consequences.

Blogger Giraffe October 17, 2013 2:24 PM  

Because fences wouldn't work to effectively hang someone?

Fine, shoot them first.

Blogger Guitar Man October 17, 2013 2:26 PM  

Guy went on a trek to endorse an abominable lifestyle that destroys those who are caught up in it. God has killed people for other reasons in the Bible. Korah is an immediate example of what happens. Did God directly bring about this father's death? I can never answer that.

Anonymous Heh October 17, 2013 2:26 PM  

Tea Party "Christians" in this country would hang gay people from fences!

What is wrong with you? How dare you make such an accusation?!

Even Tea Party "Christians" know that most fences wouldn't be high enough for that! You need lampposts, or tall trees. And none of those wimpy little saplings the libs like in their urban sprawl, either; I'm talking real, honest trees with sturdy branches.


Maybe it would be from the really high fence the raciss Tea-tards plan to build along the southern border.

Anonymous Ferd October 17, 2013 2:27 PM  

" why not just tar your ideological enemies with whatever brush is handy,,,"

You had a typo there buckaroo! Bush not brush.

Anonymous a. scientist October 17, 2013 2:32 PM  

"God has killed people for other reasons in the Bible."

god kills all people. At least, according your wacko ancient holy books.

Blogger Bullitt315 October 17, 2013 2:34 PM  

“He was very open and very proud,” Mr. Hill said in an interview.
Apparently not so proud. All those people telling him how ok it was to be gay obviously didn't prepare him for the reality of being different in HS.

Anonymous Sigyn October 17, 2013 2:38 PM  

god kills all people. At least, according your wacko ancient holy books.

So that makes it okay! *whew* I thought I wasn't supposed to murder people--that's what my Christian ministers taught me--so I'm glad you cleared that up!

I think your head would look pretty over my fireplace. Except I don't have a fireplace. Maybe I'll get one installed just for the occasion.

Anonymous Sigyn October 17, 2013 2:41 PM  

Maybe it would be from the really high fence the raciss Tea-tards plan to build along the southern border.

No no no. You hang the Mexicans from that fence to deter them from trying to do the work Americans won't do. Gays get hung from trees in the playground, to deter NAMBLA from recruiting.

I swear, no wonder we're losing this war. Half our people don't even know the protocols.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 October 17, 2013 2:45 PM  

So a. scientist, tell me, where do you derive your morality from? You are taking a morally superior position here by stating that "god kills all people" after all.

I'm interested to see at what you attribute the source of your morality from. Because science has been unable to create a coherent moral code so far.

Anonymous GG October 17, 2013 2:45 PM  

VD, may I ask for your prayers? The Holy Spirit is very close to me, but so is the other guy. God is so gentle, so kind, so peaceful. God is good.

Also, thank you so much for calling me a moron. Seriously, you handed me a key and I am very grateful. Peace be upon you.

Anonymous Daniel October 17, 2013 2:49 PM  

Satan's malice is particularly evident in these things. He is the zombie in the ambulance, hungrily croaking "Send more paramedics!"

John Calvin, of course, disagrees:

"Let us suppose, for example, that a merchant, after entering a forest in company with trust-worthy individuals, imprudently strays from his companions and wanders bewildered till he falls into a den of robbers and is murdered. His death was not only foreseen by the eye of God, but had been fixed by his decree."

It is a rather brilliant sting: commit the murder, convince God's self-professing allies and authorities to declare Him the author of the crime, and advance the agenda of lawlessness by tossing another sacrificial martyred faggot onto the bonfire of transgression.

Then again, he wouldn't be Lucifer if his schemes weren't - in the earthly sense - brilliant above all.

Anonymous earl ragnar cheddarman October 17, 2013 2:50 PM  

"I think your head would look pretty over my fireplace. Except I don't have a fireplace. Maybe I'll get one installed just for the occasion." - Sigyn

Yesterday my head on impaled on a stake, then today someone else' head on your as yet un-built fireplace. Sigyn, it must be that you are carrying a man child, the testosterone is obviously diffusing across the placenta and into your brain.

sincerely

Ear Ragnar Cheddarman

Anonymous a. scientist October 17, 2013 2:51 PM  

"You are taking a morally superior position here by stating that "god kills all people" after all."

Actually I don't believe in murder. I don't even need a moldy old holy book to tell me it's rationally wrong.

Anonymous tehstoopidhurts October 17, 2013 2:53 PM  

"to tell me it's (murder) rationally wrong."

One of the more stupid statements of the thread...

Nicely done, a. hole.

Anonymous Sigyn October 17, 2013 2:53 PM  

Sigyn, it must be that you are carrying a man child, the testosterone is obviously diffusing across the placenta and into your brain.

I'm starting to wonder. I'm trying to agree and amplify by faking over-the-top psycho and I'm doing it wayyyy too easy.

Anonymous tiredofitall October 17, 2013 2:54 PM  

"I see I didn't miss anything by staying home and studying." - Sigyn

Just e. coli from the dirty water, and a possible UTI/STD from an even dirtier coed.

Anonymous Sigyn October 17, 2013 2:56 PM  

I don't even need a moldy old holy book to tell me it's rationally wrong.

But it's not. It's completely and perfectly rational to kill someone who's interfering with what you want, as long as you think you can get away with it.

By the way, those are real nice shoes there. Real nice. What size are they?

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 2:56 PM  

God kills all people. At least, according your incredibly wonderful ancient holy books that I cherish with all my heart.

It's true. We're all dead. God is Bender.

Actually I don't believe in murder. I don't even need a moldy old holy book to tell me it's rationally wrong.

Apparently, you need it to tell you that murder exists. Don't worry. Not everyone gets it right the first time.

We'll take it from the top: People murder. Murder is bad. Don't do it.

Anonymous Sigyn October 17, 2013 2:57 PM  

Just e. coli from the dirty water, and a possible UTI/STD from an even dirtier coed.

MPAI, then.

Anonymous dh October 17, 2013 3:00 PM  

What happens when your pro-fight back against the bully stance mixes with your ostracizing and marginalizing those who are outside of the acceptable norms of Christian society position?

Would you have supported the dad going to the school, finding the bullies who gave the son a hard time, and warning them that the would break their little faces?

Blogger Dystopic October 17, 2013 3:01 PM  

This is a tragedy. The grieving father had made mistakes; he was a sinner. Still, it's difficult not to feel a small amount of pity for him. To quote Chuck Palahniuk: "What you see at fight club is a generation of men raised by women." Both the father and the son were people who were poisoned against masculinity.

Despite being complicit in the mistakes his son had made, an argument can be made that he was also betrayed by our degraded culture, which told him over and over that his support of his son's behavior was desirable. Indeed, that same culture told the son that this was not only good, but normal too. The son discovered otherwise when he came out of the closet -- our culture lied to both the father and the son, and they both believed the lies. It's sad.

Anonymous Daniel October 17, 2013 3:03 PM  

"rationally wrong?"

Don't you mean cisinformed?

Anonymous Daniel October 17, 2013 3:06 PM  

Would you have supported the dad going to the school, finding the bullies who gave the son a hard time, and warning them that the would break their little faces?

Who wouldn't? I mean, besides McRapey. He would have sent his wife to do it.

Anonymous Anonymous October 17, 2013 3:07 PM  

No need for violence. God punishes by removing your kind from the planet. More accurately, he punishes by letting you remove yourselves from the planet.

Anonymous Strange Aeons October 17, 2013 3:09 PM  

I have an inquiry for any pro-gay participants in this discussion: it is reported that homosexual people have a suicide rate that is significantly higher (5x). The common assumption is to attribute this to bullying and homophobia but it has been discovered that the suicide rate among homosexuals remains consistent in countries where they are accepted. (ie, Netherlands)
If this is accurate, how can you rationally continue to blame external intolerance for gay suicides when the problem is clearly internal intolerance?
And even if you opt to deny the validity of these sociological observations, by creating such a touchy-feely-I'm ok, you're ok- politically correct society, aren't you driving evolution backwards by purging all the environmental opposition that only toughened previous generations? Encouraging a lifestyle with such a high suicide rate seems like a callous gamble with peoples lives, just to be seen as a crusader for social justice. Given that, perhaps the so-called "intolerant" have more care for gays than the Left.

Anonymous Daniel October 17, 2013 3:11 PM  

If this is accurate, how can you rationally continue to blame external intolerance for gay suicides when the problem is clearly internal intolerance?

I am proud.
This gun is loud.
Now blame the crowd.

Anonymous a. scientific poet October 17, 2013 3:12 PM  

Even atheists gotta give it
Homo genes don't make it
Queer is evolutionary over
Think about THAT before you bend over!

Anonymous bob k. mando October 17, 2013 3:13 PM  

Markku October 17, 2013 1:53 PM
Rage Against the Facts. Haven't seen that one in a while.



by "a while", you mean yesterday?




a. scientist October 17, 2013 2:32 PM
god kills all people. At least, according your wacko ancient holy books.



hah. no, idiot.



a. scientist October 17, 2013 2:51 PM
Actually I don't believe in murder.



a - not all killing is murder, this legal principle has been recognized for thousands of years
b - whether you 'choose' to believe it or not, murder still exists

now, of course, the question of whether or not it is 'proper' to murder someone has nothing to do with whether or not you believe in murder, but we'll leave that discussion until after you've achieved a fourth grade reading level.

Blogger Guitar Man October 17, 2013 3:14 PM  

True, Dystopic, but at the same time, ignorance is never an excuse for sin. It isn't like I was laughing giddily at the tragedy of this story. On the contrary, he probably did believe that what he was doing was right and admirable. He would have been much better off had he gone to the Father for comfort over the death of his son instead of becoming a spokesman for the bullied gays.

Anonymous Golf Pro October 17, 2013 3:16 PM  

"The usual suspects will insist, in defiance of both traditional morality and secular logic, that there is no such thing as objective universal morality while simultaneously insisting that homosexuality normal and it is wrong to say otherwise."

I don't particularly think it is WRONG to say otherwise. However, I think it is somewhat irrational to say otherwise. Identifyig universal moral truths is a philosophical game many have played. The best that can be done is to say, I can't find any! Or, one can say, "God's Game, God's Rules." Of course, pinning existence and morality on a god is equally irrational as saying no God exists.

In the end, man will continue to do what he has always done: Apply basic intuitive moral claims to their lives, calling it God, then see these moral claims altered occasionally in the future as the mind and views of man changes.

Anonymous VD October 17, 2013 3:21 PM  

What happens when your pro-fight back against the bully stance mixes with your ostracizing and marginalizing those who are outside of the acceptable norms of Christian society position?

(laughs) I was wondering who was going to go there. There is no conflict. Social ostracism resulting from abnormal behavior is not bullying. Everyone should be treated with basic civility. You can treat someone decently while refusing to socialize with them or embrace their evil.

Would you have supported the dad going to the school, finding the bullies who gave the son a hard time, and warning them that the would break their little faces?

Absolutely. That being said, I very much doubt that he was bullied into suicide the way the young girl was. He wasn't pulled out of school, wasn't receiving psychiatric care, and so forth. Remember, many, many gays kill themselves despite their orientation being celebrated by their friends and families. There is a reason it was considered a psychological illness until recently.

Anonymous St. Trayvon Martin October 17, 2013 3:22 PM  

Aww, fuck. Golf Tard is back with this question begging tail-chasing bullshit. OK, only 3 more farts of his to endure.

Blogger Dystopic October 17, 2013 3:23 PM  

He would have been much better off had he gone to the Father for comfort over the death of his son instead of becoming a spokesman for the bullied gays.

I fully agree here. It would have been better if he did. Growing up, I remember the fiery sermons some ministers gave about the nature of sin, and it always seemed as if sin were a blatant, easily known evil. It isn't always that way. Sometimes it's subtle and difficult to even recognize as sinful, especially if one has allowed themselves to be taken in by a dishonest and morally bankrupt culture. That's the tragedy here.

Anonymous Golf Pro October 17, 2013 3:24 PM  

"Can anyone point me to a reason why it would be wrong to hang these evolutionary dead ends from fences?"

"Because fences wouldn't work to effectively hang someone?"

"Gays get hung from trees in the playground, to deter NAMBLA from recruiting."

These sorts of comments are sad. I wonder if they are meant to be funny. That would be even sadder.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 October 17, 2013 3:24 PM  

Actually I don't believe in murder. I don't even need a moldy old holy book to tell me it's rationally wrong.

A few points:

1) Killing and murder are two different things. Murder is a subset action of killing. So what are you opposed to: killing or murder?
2) Christians do not need "a moldy old holy book" either to tell us that murder is wrong. We know it is wrong just like you do. That "moldy old holy book" merely describes to us why it is wrong and how such a horrid thing came about.
3) You still have not answered my question: from source do you derive your morality from? Like it or not, without some source to point to, all you're doing is ensuring that morality is relative to whatever is deemed necessary at the current moment in time. At least Christians can say that this action is wrong because God says so. It makes morality static, even if a Christian fails to live up the expectations and responsibilities inherent in Christian morality.
4) Can you cite a book, chapter, and verse(s) where God explicitly states that murder is good?

Anonymous Golf Pro October 17, 2013 3:27 PM  

"2) Christians do not need "a moldy old holy book" either to tell us that murder is wrong. We know it is wrong just like you do. That "moldy old holy book" merely describes to us why it is wrong and how such a horrid thing came about."

I wonder if you can devise a reasonable explanation, without reference to God or the Bible, as to why murder ought to be considered wrong.

Blogger Dystopic October 17, 2013 3:28 PM  

I wonder if you can devise a reasonable explanation, without reference to God or the Bible, as to why murder ought to be considered wrong.

You first.

Anonymous bob k. mando October 17, 2013 3:32 PM  

Golf Pro October 17, 2013 3:24 PM
These sorts of comments are sad. I wonder if they are meant to be funny. That would be even sadder.




i'll bet you think rape should never be joked about either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5IoKVHNXmI

i used to have a friend with the surname Winebrenner. occasionally, people would ask him if he was Jewish. his stock response was, "No, my name is spelled 'ine' not 'ein'. My people were on the other side of the oven door.".

Anonymous zen0 October 17, 2013 3:32 PM  

I am curious to know if people who do memorial feats think they are somehow supernaturally protected from the usual laws of averages and or random accidents.

It reminded me of that woman who got raped and killed on some artsy-fartsy peace walk through Turkey a while back.

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 3:33 PM  

I have a friend who consciously decided that the solution to his failure with women and low self esteem was to be gay. To me, that's less consistent with the theory of 'they just can't help where they put their penis' and more consistent with my personal theory of 'need justification/outlet for my emotional problems'.

These sorts of comments are sad. I wonder if they are meant to be funny. That would be even sadder.

*playsviolin*

I wonder if you can devise a reasonable explanation, without reference to God or the Bible, as to why murder ought to be considered wrong.

No. There is none.

:O

Anonymous St. Trayvon Martin October 17, 2013 3:34 PM  

Only one comment left, Golf Tard. Here, I'll pull your finger. Fart it out quickly...

Anonymous damntull October 17, 2013 3:34 PM  

@Golf Pro
HAHAHAHAHAH AHA HA HA HAHAHAHAHAH!
Whew! out of breath ...
AAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAH!!! What a maroon!

Anonymous Sigyn October 17, 2013 3:38 PM  

I wonder if they are meant to be funny.

You'd have to have been there.

Anonymous Golf Pro October 17, 2013 3:45 PM  

"I wonder if you can devise a reasonable explanation, without reference to God or the Bible, as to why murder ought to be considered wrong.

You first."

There are any number of reasonable explanations for why murder ought to be considered wrong without reference to God. I was just wondering if any theists here had the stones to actually imagine one or two.

Anonymous Porky October 17, 2013 3:45 PM  

I wonder if you can devise a reasonable explanation, without reference to God or the Bible, as to why murder ought to be considered wrong.

Without reference to God one can devise a plethora of reasonable explanations as to why murder is right, wrong, great, awful, a great way to join a club, or simply part of a mating ritual.

What was your point?

Anonymous Golf Pro October 17, 2013 3:46 PM  

"I wonder if they are meant to be funny.

You'd have to have been there."

I think it would take more than that. I think it would take a fairly sick disposition to laugh at the idea of stringing up a person on a fence and killing them for no good reason. But that's just me.

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 3:47 PM  

The explanations are eminently reasonable, in the sense of casual pleasantries. They're just wrong.

Does it bother you that serpentine deceit is the thing you're best at, and you're still not very good at it? I'd think it over if I was you.

*

You know, together with the 'homosexuals can't help what they are and we should accept them' combined with 'women cannot be sexually accountable adults if drunk or whimsical' it seems to me that they've create a perfect dual justification for rapists (and everything else under the sun). After all, they're mentally incapacitated by their irrational and unbalanced lust and violence (and hell, they could just get drunk), and the urge to rape is just a natural desire, simply a biological feature of Who They Are.

Boom. I should have been a lawyer. Or a space pirate. Or a rugged space smuggler who dabbles in law and furry wookies. I keep my options open. Don't judge me.

Anonymous Golf Pro October 17, 2013 3:47 PM  

"Without reference to God one can devise a plethora of reasonable explanations as to why murder is right, wrong, great, awful, a great way to join a club, or simply part of a mating ritual.

What was your point?"

My point was to slake my curiosity. To discover if theists could be intellectually honest and harness their stones and actually consider a reasonable explanation sans God for why murder might be wrong. I'm finding that they neither possess that kind of honesty nor the stones.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 October 17, 2013 3:49 PM  

There are any number of reasonable explanations for why murder ought to be considered wrong without reference to God. I was just wondering if any theists here had the stones to actually imagine one or two.

You could teach Gohan how to DODGE!!!!

Blogger Dystopic October 17, 2013 3:49 PM  

There are any number of reasonable explanations for why murder ought to be considered wrong without reference to God.

Yet you failed to produce one. One of your more amusing debating tactics is to simply repeat the same thing over and over again in (slightly) different words.

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 3:50 PM  



Well, you should know better shouldn't you? Murder is Wrong. Your self-proclaimed morality is terribly ineffective.

Anonymous Porky October 17, 2013 3:51 PM  

My point was to slake my curiosity. To discover if theists could be intellectually honest and harness their stones and actually consider a reasonable explanation sans God for why murder might be wrong. I'm finding that they neither possess that kind of honesty nor the stones.

I just told you, Golfie. Without God it's perfectly reasonable to assume murder is wrong. It's also perfectly reasonable to eat babies dipped in chocolate fondue.

It's all relative, donchaknow.

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 3:51 PM  

^ @ GP

I think it would take more than that. I think it would take a fairly sick disposition to laugh at the idea of stringing up a person on a fence and killing them for no good reason. But that's just me.

Gah. Why's this comment box eating my quotations? Freaking grammar Nazis everywhere.

Anonymous St. Trayvon Martin October 17, 2013 3:51 PM  

So Golf Pro is done posting. Vox's blog, Vox's rules. Thank Allah!

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 3:52 PM  

My point was to slake my curiosity. To discover if theists could be intellectually honest and harness their stones and actually consider a reasonable explanation sans God for why murder might be wrong. I'm finding that they neither possess that kind of honesty nor the stones.

It's true. We possess the kind of honesty where we tell the truth. There is no workable moral explanation, outside of appeals to a superior moral agency.

Anonymous Sigyn October 17, 2013 3:54 PM  

I think it would take a fairly sick disposition to laugh at the idea of stringing up a person on a fence and killing them for no good reason.

It's a perfectly good reason. You're just clinging to some kind of outmoded, irrational morality that nobody here agrees with.

Sorry, dude, but these moral claims altered as the mind and views of man changed.

Anonymous Sigyn October 17, 2013 3:55 PM  

My point was to slake my curiosity. To discover if theists could be intellectually honest and harness their stones and actually consider a reasonable explanation sans God for why murder might be wrong. I'm finding that they neither possess that kind of honesty nor the stones.

Uh-oh, guys. We've been double-dog dared. Oh noes!

Anonymous Golf Pro October 17, 2013 3:57 PM  

"I just told you, Golfie. Without God it's perfectly reasonable to assume murder is wrong"

OK...tell me then, how would you make the reasonable case (sans God) that murder is wrong.

Anonymous Krul October 17, 2013 3:59 PM  

Golf Pro - To discover if theists could be intellectually honest and harness their stones and actually consider a reasonable explanation sans God for why murder might be wrong. I'm finding that they neither possess that kind of honesty nor the stones.

Neither do you. The difference is that you need such an explanation and they don't.

Blogger John Williams October 17, 2013 4:00 PM  

Come one, lighten up on Matthew Shepherd. He's the best they have. Well, really it's the fiction that they've wrapped him in, a story that could happen. Don't discount it just because it hasn't happened yet, it could.

Back in the early 90's there was a king/king homecoming pair elected by a school, somewhere. There was a whole high school where the majority approved and still one of the kings offed himself.

Remember when the Jet Blue male airline attendant popped the emergency exit and slid down the slide and ran away? You just knew he was gay. There's just something not right with them.

Anonymous St. Trayvon Martin October 17, 2013 4:00 PM  

What? Golf Pro -- where are your morals? Why are you violating Vox's rules on your limits to post... ? Is this moral or reasonable behavior, sir?

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 4:01 PM  

I'm still sad the comment box cannibalised my incredible, insightful and incisive post about something somewhere that I said before sometime. It's destroying me inside.

:(

Look at my emoticon. It's pathetic... Look away!

OK...tell me then, how would you make the reasonable case (sans God) that murder is wrong.

You can't. Therefore you need God, and everyone but us is wrong. :D

Oh, I never get tired of that... Ask it again!

Anonymous Anonymous October 17, 2013 4:01 PM  

@GP - what you fail to realize is that many good Christians have asked that very question, wrestled with it, and come to one immutable conclusion. Without God you cannot claim that murder is wrong. Without God you have an appeal to a subjective authority, or an appeal to the majority opinion - which, as history has proven, is as reliable as the wind. The burden is on you to make the case, not those who have contemplated and come to their own conclusions.

Anonymous Golf Pro October 17, 2013 4:02 PM  

"It's true. We possess the kind of honesty where we tell the truth. There is no workable moral explanation, outside of appeals to a superior moral agency."

This clearly isn't true. What you mean to say is that "there is no workable OBJECTIVE moral explanation outside of appeals to a superior moral agency that I accept." For example, you could say I rest my morals on the teachings of my sister. Or you could say I rest my morals on the teachings of the Humanist Manifesto II.

What's fascinating is that no theist here is even willing to attempt to even give a reasonable (not even "rational") explanation as to why murder may be wrong.

Anonymous Sigyn October 17, 2013 4:02 PM  

Porky, I love you to bacon bits and all, but are you seriously going to let Tad get you to do his homework for him?

Blogger Chris Ritchie October 17, 2013 4:03 PM  

Golf Pro - The burden of proof is on you. The people on this board are perfectly fine in their intellectual justification for appeal to authority outside of self to set standards. You need to prove why murder is wrong without an appeal to authority.

I'm guessing you're reticent because you know we've all been down that road before. You will present statements you believe will hold up under scrutiny while the Ilk here will tear those statements to intellectual shreds. I'm looking forward to this. Please start us off.

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 4:04 PM  


This clearly isn't true. What you mean to say is that "there is no workable OBJECTIVE moral explanation outside of appeals to a superior moral agency that I accept." For example, you could say I rest my morals on the teachings of my sister. Or you could say I rest my morals on the teachings of the Humanist Manifesto II.


Okay. :)

But ours is the best, and the only logically consistent and completely justifiable moral philosophy.


What's fascinating is that no theist here is even willing to attempt to even give a reasonable (not even "rational") explanation as to why murder may be wrong.


Because God said so. How's that?

Oh, you're too easy.

Anonymous St. Trayvon Martin October 17, 2013 4:04 PM  

Porky: Proverbs 26:4

Anonymous Golf Pro October 17, 2013 4:05 PM  

"Without God you cannot claim that murder is wrong. Without God you have an appeal to a subjective authority, or an appeal to the majority opinion - which, as history has proven, is as reliable as the wind. The burden is on you to make the case, not those who have contemplated and come to their own conclusions."

Is appealing to an explanation of morals not based on a god's will or the will of a set of gods always unreliable. In every case? I suppose I need to know what you mean by "reliable". But I think it's pretty clear that one could stand their moral values on something other than a god or gods and still satisfy the needs of society as well a christians.

Blogger Chris Ritchie October 17, 2013 4:05 PM  

@Mudz
"You can't. Therefore you need God, and everyone but us is wrong. :D

Oh, I never get tired of that... Ask it again!"

Made me laugh! I don't get tired of it either.

Anonymous St. Trayvon Martin October 17, 2013 4:05 PM  

how long did Vox's rules for the Tard last? 24 hours?

Anonymous Noah B. October 17, 2013 4:06 PM  

"OK...tell me then, how would you make the reasonable case (sans God) that murder is wrong."

In the secular framework, Hitler, Stalin, and Mao didn't really do anything wrong. They just had a different set of priorities than some people. Stop judging and just accept people for who they are. Because diversity.

Blogger Chris Ritchie October 17, 2013 4:08 PM  

"But I think it's pretty clear that one could stand their moral values on something other than a god or gods and still satisfy the needs of society as well a christians."

Evidence please. Please show us these societies.

Blogger Giraffe October 17, 2013 4:08 PM  

But I think it's pretty clear that one could stand their moral values on something other than a god or gods and still satisfy the needs of society as well a christians.

Sure, worked well in the Soviet Union and China. Only a couple hundred million dead.

Anonymous Sigyn October 17, 2013 4:10 PM  

What's fascinating is that no theist here is even willing to attempt to even give a reasonable (not even "rational") explanation as to why murder may be wrong.

What's fascinating is that you were asked to do it first, and have stubbornly refused. You should be equipped to defend your own position. Go for it.

Anonymous St. Trayvon Martin October 17, 2013 4:10 PM  

Vox: "God is not mocked" --> Golf Tard mocks God right in the very same thread.

Anonymous Sigyn October 17, 2013 4:12 PM  

Golf Tard mocks God right in the very same thread.

And he's getting an almighty public beatdown by God's own people right here.

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 4:13 PM  


Made me laugh! I don't get tired of it either.


He's hilarious. He has no scruples, expends all his efforts on trolling, and he still can't succeed at anything.

*

Is appealing to an explanation of morals not based on a god's will or the will of a set of gods always unreliable. In every case?

Not if it agrees with the explication of God's morals. So God would be the moral reference for that moral reference, making Him still the ultimate moral authority.

I suppose I need to know what you mean by "reliable".

Reliable = Can be relied upon.

But I think it's pretty clear that one could stand their moral values on something other than a god or gods and still satisfy the needs of society as well a christians.

No. Society is made up of people and we all need God.

*fingersnap*

Blogger Rantor October 17, 2013 4:13 PM  

A father leaves his partner and living children to walk around for two years? Self indulgent, egocentric creep. No better than a friend's husband who dumped her and two kids to ride a motorcycle around America. This self-centered jerk then gets lots of press for his great act of egotism. Only in America.

Anonymous Noah B. October 17, 2013 4:13 PM  

"Sure, worked well in the Soviet Union and China. Only a couple hundred million dead."

Pretty great places except for the killings.

Blogger slarrow October 17, 2013 4:15 PM  

Interesting how this Golf Pro person is trying to get his opponents to do his homework for him. The burden is on the non-theist to provide such a rationale, so he's begging his opponents to do so in the guise of baiting them for their alleged dishonesty and lack of courage. Transparent.

Here's the short case for knowing murder is wrong that includes God. We are created by God in His image and have the "law written on our hearts." Thus, to the extent that our intuition makes us recoil at the sight or thought of murder, it can be trusted that we are reacting according to that natural law. We can also see the tremendous damage that murder does not only to individuals but to the relationships between people that constitute society and conclude reasonably about the undesirability of the act. Finally, through experience with God and records of that experience (that "moldy old holy book"), we can be assured that these acts are not only undesirable but in fact wrong and evil, a break from the moral law God has established. So God does not merely tell us murder is wrong--God's law makes it wrong, and these avenues are how God lets us know.

So that approach validates intuition, reason, and divine revelation. Your challenge, which you'll duck, is to not only use intuition and/or reason for your explanation but also validate them as trustworthy first. Statements like "I'm sure I could cite several options" or "it's clear that it could be done" are what is known as "hand-waving." Do put up or shut up. Please.

Blogger Dominic Saltarelli October 17, 2013 4:19 PM  

Just when it seemed comment threads around here were getting high-brow and classy, this happens. Brings a tear to my eye, you guys make me proud.

Anonymous Anonymous October 17, 2013 4:24 PM  

Perhaps it's better to think of it like - taken home for his own sake. I'd be eternally grateful if I was prevented from even more shame - so seriously ignorant that my best intentions were wholly taken up into evil.

Depends on our view of 'this world' 'vale of tears' 'exiled children of Eve' 'prince of this world' 'world hates you' 'loves their life in this world' - you know the one that tortured and murdered it's creator and chief good! !

That some irredeemably wicked go on for along time, gravitating to Power spreading their B.O. and doing their worst doesn't say anything about God's inexorable judgment - look how slow it was from the murder of the prophets to their judgment AD 33 and 70.

-Perennial

Anonymous Sigyn October 17, 2013 4:25 PM  

Just when it seemed comment threads around here were getting high-brow and classy, this happens. Brings a tear to my eye, you guys make me proud.

Just consider it a playground--except with more NAMBLA recruiters in the trees.

Anonymous Ann Morgan October 17, 2013 4:29 PM  

VD wrote: **The American elites have declared that there is nothing wrong with what God calls abomination.**

First of all, there is no actual proof of God's existence, or what he might or might not call 'abomination'. Absent such proof, what your statement really means is that some people have declared that there is nothing wrong with what OTHER people claim - without proof - that God regards as abomination.

Secondly, the only really valid reason you have given why any and all things that God proclaims must be obeyed, up to and including rape, infanticide, and genocide, is that of fear. God will torture us forever if we don't obey. I can certainly get behind the fear thing and might physically comply with someone who has a gun pointed to my head. But he's definitely going to have to have a better reason than the gun for me to really agree that what he does or says is right, and I'm also definitely going to be spending a lot of my time trying to find a way to kill a person like that.

Anonymous St. Trayvon Martin October 17, 2013 4:31 PM  

Psst ... Ann ... you forgot to mention "bronze age tribe." http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ssdd

Anonymous Athor Pel October 17, 2013 4:33 PM  

Ok, here's the logic train for the slow learners.

Without God as decider of morality you only have mankind left as final arbiter.

How many people do you implicitly completely totally trust with your life, your wealth, your wife and children? Who are those people? Have you been burned by any of them in the past? Have any of those implicitly trusted people ever lied to you, for any reason?

Now ask yourself how many people completely trust you with their life, their wealth, their wife and children. Assuming that any exist, have you ever lied to any of those people? How many people regardless of how well they trust you have you betrayed in one way or another, small or large?

Now, what man's system of morals are you really going to trust with your life and the life of your family?

Guess what, you got nothing constant to hold onto without God. You only have man. And you know in your gut just what a poor specimen he really is through your own craven depravity. Which we all share by the way. Don't feel picked on. You're in good, but ultimately doomed without God, company.

Anonymous Porky October 17, 2013 4:33 PM  

Porky, I love you to bacon bits and all, but are you seriously going to let Tad get you to do his homework for him?

Why yes I am, Sigyn. You see, if we consider the ascetic rationale of Schopenhauer under the macroscopic gestalt of Neitzche's nihilism we can then infer a ...

...what's that?.... Golf Pro has hit his 5 posts already? .... aww, darn.

Anonymous Giraffe October 17, 2013 4:34 PM  

But he's definitely going to have to have a better reason than the gun for me to really agree that what he does or says is right, and I'm also definitely going to be spending a lot of my time trying to find a way to kill a person like that.

So, exalted genius, you are saying you don't like to take other people's word for it on moral matters.

That's why it requires God to have a moral law.

Anonymous Jou_ma_se October 17, 2013 4:34 PM  

It's only a short jump for christian fanatics to go from "struck down by god" to "I struck him down for god." History proves this right.As does the gleeful nature of this post.

Not American. I don't even have anything really against gays. I have no idea what the Tea Party is about. But you're a hateful a-hole bigot. More people have been killed by atheists and secularists than religious people. And atheist secularists continue to murder people in places like North Korea. As for "struck by God" to "I struck him down" makes no sense. People can use anything to justify their actions. Atheist killings in the 20th century prove this bigot.

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 4:40 PM  

First of all, there is no actual proof of God's existence, or what he might or might not call 'abomination'. Absent such proof, what your statement really means is that some people have declared that there is nothing wrong with what OTHER people claim - without proof - that God regards as abomination.

In order: The universe & logic, the Bible and Leviticus. So therefore we have given the justification you changed genders to request. Mahvellous, suh, simply mahvellous.

Secondly, the only really valid reason you have given why any and all things that God proclaims must be obeyed, up to and including rape, infanticide, and genocide, is that of fear. God will torture us forever if we don't obey. I can certainly get behind the fear thing and might physically comply with someone who has a gun pointed to my head. But he's definitely going to have to have a better reason than the gun for me to really agree that what he does or says is right, and I'm also definitely going to be spending a lot of my time trying to find a way to kill a person like that.

There is a much better reason to comply with God. He's God.

Ba-dum-pish!

And thus all your questions were answered, and yea, the light of heaven... well, ignored you, because you're an idiot.

Anonymous Sigyn October 17, 2013 4:40 PM  

So, exalted genius, you are saying you don't like to take other people's word for it on moral matters.

I think what she's saying is that no matter how many times you repeat yourself, la la la, she's not listening:

"First of all, there is no actual proof of God's existence..."

Anonymous GG October 17, 2013 4:52 PM  

VD, I asked for your prayers. I don't have the moral authority to speak for God, but God sure speaks to me. Screams, actually. He says, make him listen! You VD, you who call yourself VD while proclaiming God will not be mocked. Make YOU listen. Heck if I know why.

It's not the gays. God loves the gays, just like he loves any other sinner. I know what the mark of the beast is, I know what the abomination is. I see. If you are really a Christian you will know, too. There are dozens of verses about it in the bible and very few about homosexuality.

You are correct, it is God's game, God's rules, God's plan. The tricky part is trying to figure out what that is. All I know is that God is loving and kind and we are not to point fingers at gays.

"Social ostracism resulting from abnormal behavior is not bullying"

Fine. Perhaps you'd like to explain to Jesus about how that works? Social ostracism is one of the worst forms of bullying there is. It hurts, VD. It's not right.

Anonymous Anonymous October 17, 2013 4:52 PM  

and I'm also definitely going to be spending a lot of my time trying to find a way to kill a person like that.

That's been done by the way. And also...He is risen.

Blogger Doom October 17, 2013 4:55 PM  

My own devil inside is smiling greatly about this story. The devil's own may be treated as the devil wills, and so it has happened. Death in sin ensures at least some damage, but supporting sin and leading others into it? And in the false name of love? Oh... from an evil standpoint, this guy is Olympian. Further? His death will bring sympathy and empathy so that people ignore the sin. A true devil's advocate if I ever saw one.

Which is why, for the most part, I ignore such stories, and pray for my own soul after seeing such. In days of wisdom, such happenings were relegated to the wastes of nonity where they belong. Neither reported or even spoken of, the evil was allowed to die with the adherents of it, rather than broadcast to entrap souls in various sin.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 October 17, 2013 4:56 PM  

First of all, there is no actual proof of God's existence, or what he might or might not call 'abomination'.

And so She appears.

What kind of evidence are you referring too Ann? Scientific?

Because there is no scientific evidence to prove that Charles Darwin ever existed. At best, we have a corpse with a grave stone on it but that is not scientific proof he ever existed. In fact, I think he was a made-up figure to further some anti-religious fervor in order to cow the dumb masses into line.

Anonymous GG October 17, 2013 4:56 PM  

"First of all, there is no actual proof of God's existence..."

Sure there is. For one thing, I haven't yet been turned into a pillar of salt.

God is good. Some of his followers, not so much.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 October 17, 2013 5:00 PM  

All I know is that God is loving and kind and we are not to point fingers at gays.

I always love it when we are told by other Christians to not judge others or echo God's own phrases for the abominations that people commit.

Yes, it is true that God is loving and kind (in my mind, he let Israel slide way too much). But he is also just and seeks to administer justice on sinners for their unrepentant ways. This is because sin is inherently ungodly and goes against him.

Saying that God is only loving and kind pretty much removes the reason why Jesus had to come in the first place.

Anonymous Daniel October 17, 2013 5:01 PM  

First of all, there is no actual proof that this guy had a son, loved him, or got run over by an unmanned semi truck.

It's a bit terrible, but the funeral scene from Heathers will not leave my fevered skull.

Dads who insist on creating a public narrative as a means of exploiting grief are vessels for alien takeover. Grieving like that may be perfectly natural - what it isn't is right. He would walk around the world dragging a coffin, but couldn't find the time to intervene in bullying that (if it existed at all) he surely would have known about. His son was proud, right? - it isn't like he would have kept something like that to himself...

Anonymous GG October 17, 2013 5:05 PM  

"Saying that God is only loving and kind pretty much removes the reason why Jesus had to come in the first place."

I said nothing about God ONLY being loving and kind. Oh no, he can be quite terrifying. WE however, us as Christians, are instructed not to judge others. Ostracizing people is bullying, it's a particularily cruel form of bullying.

Blogger Dystopic October 17, 2013 5:07 PM  

First of all, there is no actual proof of God's existence, or what he might or might not call 'abomination'.

Correction: there is no proof you are willing to accept. Evidence for God's existence can be found. One of the central points in this discussion is the existence of morality and how it relates to God. That is a form of evidence (though admittedly not conclusive) in favor of God's existence. Some people claim to have personal religious experiences that prove God's existence to them. While you and I cannot independently verify them, it is possible that some of those experiences are genuine, and thus for those people God would be provable.

Now your second point is completely false. The Bible gives us a pretty clear picture of what He finds sinful.

Blogger JartStar October 17, 2013 5:14 PM  

Ostracizing people is bullying, it's a particularily cruel form of bullying.

So no matter what someone has done, they should never be ostracized by society?

Anonymous GG October 17, 2013 5:15 PM  

"I always love it when we are told by other Christians to not judge others or echo God's own phrases for the abominations that people commit."

It really depends on our motivation. If we are speaking God's word, intent is important. Do we intend to use those words to bully others, to ostracize them, to puff ourselves up as morally/intellectually superior?? In that case, the error is on our end.

Anonymous George of the Hole October 17, 2013 5:16 PM  

"First of all, there is no actual proof of God's existence..."

What, if anything, would you accept as proof?

Anonymous Daniel October 17, 2013 5:17 PM  

It really depends on our motivation.

And who are you to judge motives you can't possibly know?

Anonymous dh October 17, 2013 5:18 PM  

Absolutely. That being said, I very much doubt that he was bullied into suicide the way the young girl was. He wasn't pulled out of school, wasn't receiving psychiatric care, and so forth. Remember, many, many gays kill themselves despite their orientation being celebrated by their friends and families. There is a reason it was considered a psychological illness until recently.

I agree this case doesn't indicate that. It does happen, in the popular media that it is represented the same as the other case - i.e., serious bullying that leads to a proximate cause of death. It's hard to say if that's propaganda or really does happen.

Blogger Dystopic October 17, 2013 5:19 PM  

Ostracizing people is bullying, it's a particularily cruel form of bullying.

This is complete crap. By this sort of logic, I should be required to befriend people against my will, because otherwise I would be ostracizing them. Consider that you are basically stating that not liking someone and not wanting to interact with them is tantamount to actively persecuting them. You even describe it as "particularly cruel" such that you seem to view it as worse than persecution. That is a category error.

Anonymous Ann Morgan October 17, 2013 5:21 PM  

Dystopic: Claiming that there is 'no evidence I am willing to accept' is not a presentation of actual evidence. Your statement included the possibility that there is no evidence at all, since no evidence at all would definitely mean that there would be no evidence I would be willing to accept.

**Now your second point is completely false. The Bible gives us a pretty clear picture of what He finds sinful.**

Ah, no. The Bible gives a pretty clear picture as to what certain people living in the bronze age CLAIMED that God found sinful. It is not evidence of the existence of God or God's opinions any more than other documents, equally old, are evidence that people fought cyclops and mermaids and were turned into pigs.

Anonymous GG October 17, 2013 5:22 PM  

"So no matter what someone has done, they should never be ostracized by society?"

It depends, but actually, no. Jesus told us to love even the least among us. Naturally since we live in a fallen world, we have to lock up bad guys, defend ourselves, but nope, I do not believe we are supposed to ever ostracize anyone, not if you're going to call yourself a disciple of Christ anyway.

Anonymous dh October 17, 2013 5:22 PM  

Social ostracism resulting from abnormal behavior is not bullying.

I suppose it really is in the method of carrying out the sentence. I suppose there could be a way that children would ostracize a queer/gay/cis-unnormal teen or child that doesn't involve taunts and incivility. Like if there were two home school kids who were placed into public schools as part of a reality TV show, and they discovered a gay classmate, they would probably just quietly ignore that person.

Anonymous Catan October 17, 2013 5:24 PM  

Do we intend to use those words to bully others, to ostracize them, to puff ourselves up as morally/intellectually superior?? In that case, the error is on our end.

So there is never a reason to attempt to correct others' behavior if it is contributing to societal decay?

It seems that many in society are giving this job to the Government instead, and telling individuals that we are evil if we dare to take on the responsibility ourselves of using our intellect and wisdom to improve society in a libertarian way, WITHOUT Government.

Either you think individuals/society should police culture, or you think Government should. You can't believe that neither should, right? Then there is no longer disincentive for culturally destructive behavior.

So what say all you anti-judgies? How shall society police itself and its norms in your mind?

Or is your opinion that we can take our continued societal success for granted for some reason, and therefore we are now in the Age of Nonjudgment? I suppose that's exactly what the Postmodern Age means, eh? Nothing means anything, therefore the only evil is thinking things like society and decay actually have meaning.

Anonymous Ann Morgan October 17, 2013 5:25 PM  

**Ostracizing people is bullying, it's a particularily cruel form of bullying.**

**This is complete crap. By this sort of logic, I should be required to befriend people against my will, because otherwise I would be ostracizing them.**

I agree with Dystopic that the statement is crap. Ostracizing people is not bullying. However, the statement made by VD is also crap, if he thinks that the worst thing happening to homosexuals (not to mention those with too much or too little intelligence, the physically deformed, or anyone else who falls outside the norm) is simply 'being ostracized' then he is either severely deluded, or a flat out liar. Most people on the bottom of the social ladder in our schools probably DREAM of actually being ostracized.

Blogger JartStar October 17, 2013 5:25 PM  

I do not believe we are supposed to ever ostracize anyone, not if you're going to call yourself a disciple of Christ anyway.

So a proud member of MANBLA (or whatever that sick organization is called), who has never been convicted of a crime, openly promotes his way of life, is welcome to be an Elder or Deacon at your church the same as any other member?

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 5:26 PM  

Ann accepts it. He just doesn't have anything better to do than play at VP groupie.

I always love it when we are told by other Christians I don't think the assumption is merited in his case.

WE however, us as Christians, are instructed not to judge others. Then stop judging us for judging people, bigot. Alternatively, read the rest of the passage.

Ostracizing people is bullying, it's a particularily cruel form of bullying. That abusive, and I feel emotionally isolated from your moral stance. You're a terrible person.

*

The Bible gives a pretty clear picture as to what certain people living in the bronze age CLAIMED that God found sinful.

And they were completely correct, so there's no problem. Next.

Blogger slarrow October 17, 2013 5:27 PM  

GG, how do you reconcile your position with 2 Thessalonians 3:6, "But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us"?

Anonymous Catan October 17, 2013 5:27 PM  

It doesn't even necessarily have to come to correcting others' behavior, although in a free society, you can't forcefully correct someone's behavior, anyway. Unlike societies where Government polices behavior, where force is routinely used.

Like dh just laid out, there are ways to disapprove in a mature way.

Anonymous Sigyn October 17, 2013 5:27 PM  

GG. Honey. If ostracism is wrong, then God is wrong:

Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

You need to double-check your "revelations" against those of others before you go proclaiming them, honey. I'm not being sarcastic.

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 5:28 PM  

Most people on the bottom of the social ladder in our schools probably DREAM of actually being ostracized.

That's perfect! I believe we have just the solution. Ostracise them. They want it so badly.

Anonymous GG October 17, 2013 5:28 PM  

" By this sort of logic, I should be required to befriend people against my will, because otherwise I would be ostracizing them."

By what leap of logic do you conclude that I am forcing you to hold hands and sing kumbaya with the whole world?? You must be confusing me with Facebook.

I simply stated that ostracizing people from society is a cruel form of bullying. Doing it while calling yourself a Christian is especially bad, because many people reject Christ because of the cruelty and rejection they have received from other Christians.

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 5:30 PM  

I simply stated that ostracizing people from society is a cruel form of bullying. Doing it while calling yourself a Christian is especially bad, because many people reject Christ because of the cruelty and rejection they have received from other Christians.

As you are a Christian, this no doubt makes you happy to see God's prophecy being fulfilled, and His kingdom approach. And you probably know exactly what I'm talking about, and can quote me the scripture.

Anonymous St. Trayvon Martin October 17, 2013 5:32 PM  

Ann said it... "bronze age" ... Good little monkey.

Anonymous GG October 17, 2013 5:34 PM  

"You need to double-check your "revelations" against those of others before you go proclaiming them, honey. I'm not being sarcastic."

You are deliberately misunderstanding me and responding emotionally, rather than logically, something I'm sure VD has experienced before when he is being misunderstood.

Once again, I do not have the moral authority to speak for God, I simply speak my Truth as I know it. Take it or leave it.

Blogger JartStar October 17, 2013 5:34 PM  

Ann said it... "bronze age" ... Good little monkey.

160 IQ. Believe it.

Blogger Dystopic October 17, 2013 5:36 PM  

Claiming that there is 'no evidence I am willing to accept' is not a presentation of actual evidence. Your statement included the possibility that there is no evidence at all, since no evidence at all would definitely mean that there would be no evidence I would be willing to accept.

I presented possible evidence (though quite circumstantial) and you chose to ignore that. That is your own problem. You claimed that no proof at all exists, that is something you will have to provide evidence for. I provided counter-examples to demonstrate that proof may exist, which is sufficient to refute your assertion that there is definitively no proof.

In other words, you say proof does not exist, I say it is possible that it does exist, but it is not definitively known. This is a common fallacy in atheist arguments. It is the functional equivalent of saying "there is no proof that man is a murderer" when it is more accurate to say "I don't have proof that man is a murderer." Proof may exist, it just might be unknown to you. If there was a witness to the murder whom you do not know, that witness would have very definite proof of the murderer's identity.


Ah, no. The Bible gives a pretty clear picture as to what certain people living in the bronze age CLAIMED that God found sinful. It is not evidence of the existence of God or God's opinions any more than other documents, equally old, are evidence that people fought cyclops and mermaids and were turned into pigs.


We are talking specifically about the God of Abraham here, not Zeus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Unless you care to refute the entire Bible as referring to a different deity this argument is baseless. You're welcome to try.

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 5:38 PM  

I simply speak my Truth as I know it.

Probably why it's a big mess of bullshit.

160 IQ. Believe it.

I wouldn't.

Anonymous Ann Morgan October 17, 2013 5:38 PM  

George wrote: **What, if anything, would you accept as proof?**

Something which, at the least, precludes the possibility of having been created by present or past human beings, or by nature (however great the odds). Or simply being written accounts by those who could have been lying or deluded. As I've mentioned before a 3000 year old tablet engraved with the 10 commandments and made entirely of a pure, stable, transuranic element would definitely get my attention, as it would eliminate the possibility of liars, delusion, and present or past human beings. Although it would include the possibility of time travellers or aliens, as well as God. Though admittedly, sufficiently powerful time travellers, aliens, spirits, and other things that can demonstrate that they can accomplish certain tasks, whatever the means they might use to do it, would probably be deserving of the name 'God', at least in the terms of the power they wield.

It would also be more impressive if it were not the case that those who talk loudest about being 'Christians' are also those who most often advocate killing, rape, infanticide, genocide, and spew out obscenities about my speaking out my vagina. If that is the end result that the practice of their religion has on them, it doesn't seem to be very worthwhile.

Blogger Chiva October 17, 2013 5:38 PM  

Truth as you know it....then is it truth or opinion?

Blogger JartStar October 17, 2013 5:40 PM  

Hey GG, you probably missed my question, but will you answer it?

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 5:42 PM  

Something which, at the least, precludes the possibility of having been created by present or past human beings, or by nature (however great the odds).

The universe.

You seriously didn't know this?

As I've mentioned before a 3000 year old tablet engraved with the 10 commandments and made entirely of a pure, stable, transuranic element would definitely get my attention, as it would eliminate the possibility of liars, delusion, and present or past human beings.

Foolish condition. I dismiss it.

It would also be more impressive if it were not the case that those who talk loudest about being 'Christians' are also those who most often advocate killing, rape, infanticide, genocide, and spew out obscenities about my speaking out my vagina.

I'd be impressed if I cared.

Anonymous St. Trayvon Martin October 17, 2013 5:42 PM  

You had me at UFOs and dirty vaginas....

Blogger Dystopic October 17, 2013 5:43 PM  

... those who talk loudest about being 'Christians' are also those who most often advocate killing, rape, infanticide...

This is absolutely hilarious. Infanticide? Really? Because Christians protesting against abortion are all about killing babies. Ann, please continue to post -- your arguments are incredibly amusing.

Anonymous GG October 17, 2013 5:43 PM  

"As you are a Christian, this no doubt makes you happy to see God's prophecy being fulfilled, and His kingdom approach..."

No, actually I'm scared to death and asked for VD's prayers. I'll take all the prayers I can get, actually.

God wins the game every time and I trust Him, it's just scary stuff. On the other hand, the more I see of a fallen world, the more calm I become. God is good. All will be well.

Anonymous Mudz October 17, 2013 5:46 PM  

GG, don't be an ass. You're hopelessly incompetent, and there's a reason no-one's interested in demonstrating intelligent trolling technique to you. It's a waste of time on all counts.

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