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Monday, June 16, 2014

Contamination by association

In keeping with the argument presented by Tim Atkinson, I encourage left-liberal science fiction writers to not "give house room" to known child molesters and rapists. Atkinson writes:
Now, there's a conversation to be had about how and whether to read authors with detestable views. I'm not pro-censorship, I'm pro-context. But putting someone prone to racist outbursts on a conservative voting slate for the shortlist for the prestigious Hugo Awards - that sends a entirely different message to the one I think you hoped it would.

Would Beale have gotten onto the shortlist for Best Novella - which he succeeded in doing - if he hadn't had this kind of support? We'll probably never know. But the point is that the Beale-boosting contaminated by association the conservatives-and-libertarians-overlooked-in-SF position the slate was intended at least in part to raise.

Correia mounts a mainly art-for-arts-sake defence for the inclusion of Beale on his slate (it's a long post so I'd suggest scrolling or searching for it). Unfortunately, he presses onto deny both the racism of Beale's statement and of the man himself, which seems at best naïve and at worst disingenuous in light of his public record....

I have been clear, I hope, that Correia is not supporting Beale over and above putting him on his Hugos slate and is on the record that he himself is not racist. My key point is that putting forward such a divisive, controversial figure (to put it mildly and in terms you might find acceptable) risks contaminating by implication conservative/libertarian positions in science-fiction.
I find Mr. Atkinson's concern about messages and contamination to be fascinating. Mr. Atkinson claims my comments made in response to a woman lying about me and repeatedly attacking me are "controversial" and risk "contaminating by implication conservative/libertarian positions in science-fiction" while completely ignoring the fact that, by the same metric, the liberal/left position in science fiction has undeniably been contaminated for 15 years by the documented public evidence that Marion Zimmer Bradley, one of the most influential and celebrated feminist authors that Pink SF/F has ever had, was an abusive, sexually aberrant child molester and incestuous rapist.

Marion Zimmer Bradley was convicted on a federal child pornography charge prior to her marrying the homosexual child molester Walter Breen and editing one of his books defending pedophilia. Bradley's own daughter has publicly stated that her mother raped her on more than one occasion. One of Bradley's lesbian lovers testified in a 1998 legal deposition that she was aware Marion Zimmer Bradley sexually harassed and tortured her own daughter, and raped her own son as well.

SFWA purged me from its ranks for a single tweet, but has not yet seen fit to purge Marion Zimmer Bradley despite her many sex-related crimes dating back to the 1950s. They have not revoked the two Nebula nominations given to a known child molester and a magazine named after her. SFWA still features an RIP notice for Marion Zimmer Bradley, as well as a listing for Bradley's literary estate and the agent for that estate on its Internet site. (However, it is interesting to note that SFWA never awarded her any distinction as a Grand Master or Author Emeritus whereas she received the Lifetime Achievement Award from the World Fantasy Convention in 2000, which suggests that some SFWA officers were probably aware of her problematic history.) But SFWA's Nebula-winning members and former officers are still writing and publishing laudatory articles about the confirmed child abuser, some as recently as last week.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the 47 SFWA members who called for my expulsion and none of the 8 SFWA Board members who voted for it have ever openly condemned Marion Zimmer Bradley or called for the revoking of all awards and recognition given to her by various science fiction and fantasy organizations even though knowledge of her crimes has been a literal matter of public record for more than a decade. By the Left's own transitive logic of contamination-by-association, until they do, it must be assumed that Steven Gould, Rachel Swirsky, Lee Martindale, Matthew Johnson, Bud Sparhawk, Patrick Nielsen Hayden (a self-described racist), John Scalzi (a self-described rapist), the Toad of Tor, Jim Hines, Jo Walton, Deborah Ross, Amal El-Mohtar, and dozens of other left-leaning science fiction and fantasy writers are morally degenerate individuals who celebrate homosexuality, torture, child abuse, child molestation, incest, and rape.

It appears not to be a coincidence that their books are so often packed with sexual perversions and crimes. It is beyond irony, and well into dark parody, to discover that this inclusive and tolerant crowd has long included, tolerated, celebrated, and even honored a felonious feminist child molester. In light of these facts, I sent the following letter to Steven Gould, the President of SFWA, yesterday:

Dear Mr. Gould and the SFWA Board

I have three questions in light of the recent public statements that Marion Zimmer Bradley raped her daughter, and the legal depositions of Ms Bradley and Elizabeth Waters which are posted on SFF.net and indicate Marion Zimmer Bradley:
  1. was aware of her husband's criminal sexual molestation of several underage boys
  2. tortured and sexually molested her own daughter
  3. raped her own son
First, as a tolerant and inclusive organization, does the behavior which SFWA tolerates include abnormal sexual behavior such as homosexuality, child abuse, torture, and incestuous rape by its members? Second, will the SFWA Board be purging Marion Zimmer Bradley from SFWA's historical membership list and removing all references to her, her estate, and her estate's agent from the SFWA web site? Third, will the SFWA Board be retroactively expunging from the Nebula Awards list Marion Zimmer Bradley's 1976 Best Novel nomination for The Heritage of Hastur and Mary C. Aldridge's 1990 Best Short Story nomination for "The Adinkra Cloth", published in Marion Zimmer Bradley's Fantasy Magazine.

As a former life member of SFWA expelled by the current SFWA Board for a tweet deemed inappropriate, I should be very interested to hear SFWA's formal position on homosexuality, child molestation, torture and incestuous rape by its members. I look forward to reading your response.

Sincerely,
Vox Day

Some may find it shocking to learn that even after learning about the extent of Marion Zimmer Bradley's crimes, members of the SFWA are still defending the woman and her work. I can't say I'm even surprised.
In addition to the lives she harmed, MZB’s works saved the lives of other people by speaking to them when other works and other people would not and/or did not.

Truly.

Rachel E. Holmen, who worked as an editor for Marion Zimmer Bradley’s Fantasy Magazine said about Marion: "When she visited cons, ten or twenty young women an hour would stop by with stories along the lines of “Your books saved my life.”"

There are other writers being published now who may speak to those same hearts, but if MZB is still the author that would help them, then I think it’s important that her work be available to do so. This doesn’t diminish her very real (and very severe) failings.

Rachel’s quote points out why we need diverse books by diverse writers that speak to diverse audiences.

Additionally, MZB gave a start to a lot of women writers—a higher percentage than anyone else in the genre at the time. Those writers helped pave the way for even more female voices in the genre.
Keep in mind that the SF/F Left openly states that science fiction needs books by child molesters and rapists. Because diversity. And equality. And it remains enthusiastic about Marion Zimmer Bradley's depraved legacy.
"Great to see MZB's Legacy Continue!"
- Jim Hines, Hugo Award-winning SFWA member
I certainly wouldn't say so. Would you? The Left always claims the Right is a collection of racist white supremacists. But how seriously can you take the accusations made by collection of child-molesting perverts? The only rape culture to be found in science fiction and fantasy is on the SF/F Left.

UPDATE: Deidre clarifies her position on Marion Zimmer Bradley and makes it clear that she is NOT defending the woman.
The entire reason I posted about Marion Zimmer Bradley at all is that she did unconscionable things and enabled unconscionable things and Tor.com was whitewashing that. Full stop.

Even if you disagree with me about almost everything else, we probably agree that suicide, in general, is a sad loss of life. There are a lot of people who've had rough childhoods who feel suicidal and who have attempted suicide. If MZB's books help keep a few of them living long enough to get through that dark patch, then I think that is a good thing.

It does not change the fact that I think she belonged in prison.
Now, I think she's wrong as I do not believe the child molester's books saved a single life, the various claims of attention-seeking drama queens notwithstanding. But regardless, it is clear that she is not defending Marion Zimmer Bradley, she is not claiming that the woman's actions are justified by the impact of her books, and she should not be criticized for doing so. To the contrary, she should be lauded for calling out the ghastly MZB-glorifying actions of Tor.com and others.

Labels: ,

130 Comments:

Blogger Eric Wilson June 16, 2014 2:32 AM  

Is liberalism a weird form of Stockholm's Syndrome?

Blogger Wes June 16, 2014 2:56 AM  

The vilification of Vox and simultaneous adoration of Bradley demonstrates that the pinkshirts are nothing more than putrid hypocrites, all their moral preening aside.

The problem is not that Vox is a racist; the problem is that he's not a member of the Pinko Brigade.

It's really that simple.

Blogger Brad Andrews June 16, 2014 2:59 AM  

Anyone who disagrees with the left is a racist or whatever term they decide to sling. It isn't the true views of the individual that matter, it is the fact they won't stay in the proper line.

Talk about fascism....

Anonymous Tiger Blood June 16, 2014 3:01 AM  

Brave, Brave, Sir Tim has stopped taking comments on the thread in question.

Anonymous Smokey June 16, 2014 3:08 AM  

"When she visited cons, ten or twenty young women an hour would stop by with stories along the lines of “Your books saved my life.”"

Let me guess, these are the same kind of women that post on long essays on Tumblr nowadays saying how such and such YA novel with lesbian, transsexual, black, strong, independent womyn "saved their life" when they were on the verge of overdosing on pills because someone on the Internet and/or real life had the temerity to call them out on their bad life choices.

Blogger buzzardist June 16, 2014 3:10 AM  

These people are evil, and they will not be content until they have dragged all of us into the same evil in which they mire themselves. There is nothing left except to continue shining the brightest lights possible into the darkness that they try to maintain in order to hide their evil from wary eyes and to shun their unrepentant perversion in every way possible.

Anonymous Smokey June 16, 2014 3:18 AM  

Also, LOL:

UPDATE: I am no longer taking comments on this thread. What I've received so far doesn't inspire me to hope for a meeting of minds, so I'm stopping it here before an exchange of views becomes an argument.

Translation: People are actually trying to start a proper discussion in the comments, instead of blindly agreeing about everything I said. This is unacceptable.

Becomes even more hilarious when you go through his actual reasons for refusing to accept any more comments:

- a discussion about whether Beale's comments were offensive or not.

Because God forbid that an actual discussion of the topic should occur! The horror!

Yet, I would bet that if someone were to post a comment saying what a bad, bad racist Vox is, and blindly agreeing with everything Tim said, he would allow it through, no problem. Someone should try doing that, just as an experiment.

Anonymous Adsignatos D. June 16, 2014 3:30 AM  

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. (Romans 1:28ff)

Right on the nose that one.

Anonymous Apollo June 16, 2014 3:38 AM  

Hey Vox, your books saved my life.

Now, since a few people saying that to MZB apparently nullified her child molestation and rape, surely me saying it to you makes up for all your racism and stuff. Forward this news of your saving my life on to the SFWA and get ready for your apology cake and invitation back into the pinkshirted fold.

Anonymous kh123 June 16, 2014 3:40 AM  

"Brave, Brave, Sir Tim has stopped taking comments on the thread in question."

Right on schedule. Pavlov rejoiced.

Anonymous VD June 16, 2014 3:43 AM  

Forward this news of your saving my life on to the SFWA and get ready for your apology cake and invitation back into the pinkshirted fold.

(laughs) So brave. Thank you for this.

Anonymous Ulmer Miller June 16, 2014 3:44 AM  

I know you've made some mention of it prior, but how's part two coming along? Also, was Gor Gor named after that GWAR song of the same name?

Anonymous VD June 16, 2014 4:03 AM  

I know you've made some mention of it prior, but how's part two coming along?

Slower than I'd like, but it's coming. It's slower because I'm having to delve deeper into five different cultures. There isn't quite as much information on orc command-and-control and their order of battle as there is on the Roman legions.

Also, was Gor Gor named after that GWAR song of the same name?

Totally.

Blogger Brad Andrews June 16, 2014 5:37 AM  

OT: I am trying to remember the name of a series of short stories that covered transfer gates. One story was about one going to a heavy gravity planet and the final one was about 6-digit aliens that had taken over the system, wondering why it used a 10- or 5-digit code.

(This is at least SF related.)

Any ideas?

Anonymous Sigh June 16, 2014 5:46 AM  

Yet more proof, if any were needed, that if you're on the Left you can do no wrong, and if you're on the Right you can do no Right.

Blogger Rantor June 16, 2014 5:58 AM  

It seems that MZB's Wikipedia entry is missing some details ... Nothing about her being a rapist

Blogger Ron June 16, 2014 5:59 AM  

When someone justifies a criminal and trivializes their crime, they murder the victims a second time. There is a reason we do not praise monsters and tear down their statues.

As far as I man concerned, you can take the works of MZB and destroy them, those who justify her are simply some of the most selfish self centered monsters alive. They are not even in the category of "human beings". Such people deserve nothing, no consideration, no decency, no benefit of the doubt, nothing.

There may be things worse than a mother raping her own son and her own daughter, but thank God I am not sick enough to conceive of them save for one:

Justifying and praising the works of a woman who has raped her own son and daughter.

Blogger Dark Herald June 16, 2014 6:10 AM  

Larry Corriea's one honest critic can't come to terms with an FDR that, " In reality he was more like Danny DeVito's version of the Penguin."

Margaret Sanger was both an outright racist and a passionate eugenicist.

Marion Zimmer Bradley's perversions are unacceptable to a modern world where, Two Girls, One Cup is legal to own, (If you don't get the reference, you don't want to).

Trying to get a liberal to even look at these facts is like trying to get across the concept of up to the inhabitants of E. A. Abbot's Flatland. It' like there is no frame of reference. Their two dimensions are all that is real or even possible.

The left's CrimeStop capability never ceases to amaze me, maybe this is too the good. It's the only source of childlike wonder I seem to have left.

Anonymous jack June 16, 2014 6:11 AM  

Because: Popcorn
And, no, Vox, your books did not save my life. I can take care of that myself, thank you.

It's hard to believe how much this SFWA thing keeps giving, and giving, and giving.....

Anonymous That was easy June 16, 2014 6:14 AM  

"There isn't quite as much information on orc command-and-control and their order of battle as there is on the Roman legions."

Well if leftards/atheistards and sci-fi movie aliens are any guide, they are all controlled by one menacing figure who does all the thinking and the rank and file are just mindless drones.

Anonymous YIH June 16, 2014 6:17 AM  

Smokey:
"When she visited cons, ten or twenty young women an hour would stop by with stories along the lines of “Your books saved my life.”"
Call me crazy, but I'm still trying to wrap my brain around that one.

Anonymous VD June 16, 2014 6:22 AM  

It's hard to believe how much this SFWA thing keeps giving, and giving, and giving.....

Yeah, they probably should have reviewed the Great Japanese Naval debate before deciding to target me. How many more skeletons like these have the freakshows attempted to bury? I don't know, but I'm looking forward to finding out.

Anonymous joe doakes June 16, 2014 6:25 AM  

" . . . whether to read authors with detestable views." That was the whole point of Sad Puppies, to show that Liberals expressly vote based on views and not reading, that the quality of the work doesn't matter, only the opinions of the writer. The campaign was a brilliant success - the case was proven repeatedly.

" . . . Beale-boosting contaminated by association . . . the slate was intended at least in part to raise." No, dummy, the slate wasn't attempting to raise awareness of the existence of conservatives, Liberals are perfectly aware of conservatives and expressly withhold awards from books written by conservatives BECAUSE they were written by conservatives, i.e., wrong-thinkers. The word "contaminated" reveals the criteria and proves the point all over again.
.

Anonymous Salt June 16, 2014 7:57 AM  

It's going to be fun watching SFWA members begin distancing themselves, heading step by step towards the exit.

Blogger IM2L844 June 16, 2014 7:59 AM  

My cup of adjectives and appellations runneth over.

Anonymous Anonymous June 16, 2014 8:03 AM  

What are the chances? AUDIO: Hillary defends accused child-rapist...AUDIO: Hillary defends accused child-rapist...

Anonymous JOTS June 16, 2014 8:27 AM  

I look forward to writers proudly (as they would be, obviously) displaying their answers to Daniel's alternate form of Vox's pink list.
"
1. Stories should be clever when resorting to tropes that might seem familiar to the reader.
2. They should avoid the political naïveté of the past.
3. It should take pains not to fall into mainstream stereotypes, such as the white male protagonist.
4. It is a big world, and there is a lot demand for stories based on cultures other than the time-worn.
5. People are people.
6. Characters should reflect the diversity of humanity or risk rejection by most readers.
7. Women and minorities should be released from stereotypical support roles.
8. The future is about progress. Be progressive.
9. Be inclusive of the spectrum of sexual identity. Default heterosexuality is a writerly barrier that must be overcome.
10. The ancient structures of fantasy and science fiction are under exciting renovation, because what they lacked in the past were three-dimensional characters. That means the critical but formerly ignored relationships between people need to be prominent.
"

Let them proudly mark their books appropriately, I would welcome such information up front. I see no reason for Tim and his warren to dislike the concept of a 'goodthink' banner atop every pink sf/f book. It's a win-win.
They are making the classic rabbit mistake of thinking that Vox can't come up with a good concept because...Vox. They should examine Daniel's re-jigged version (because PC ++goodwording) and adopt it as an empowering concept allowing each author to proclaim their goodthink. And each reader to pay and read accordingly.

Perhaps Joe would tell us what the problem would be? Why not allow the reading public to judge a book by its cover? Do you not trust them?

Blogger Joe A. June 16, 2014 8:28 AM  

The Irrational Atheist and The Return of the Great Depression really have contributed to saving my life, I suspect...

Anonymous Robert in Arabia June 16, 2014 8:42 AM  

The SFWA sounds a lot like the faculty senate at any major university. Not people with whom one wants to be associated.

Blogger IM2L844 June 16, 2014 8:44 AM  

The Irrational Atheist and The Return of the Great Depression really have contributed to saving my life, I suspect...

Over the course of the few years I've been reading here, I recall several people popping in just to convey similar sentiments.

If only Vox raped and tortured children instead of being a realist, all would be forgiven.

Blogger Keith Glass June 16, 2014 8:55 AM  

Nearly 20 years ago, I had one of MZB's "caretakers" as a house-guest, ahead of a Filk con I was Head of Security on.

Later that year, I attended the MZB-themed "Darkover" con. In retrospect, I recall that I heard all sorts of things about her work, and not a word about her, or her life.

Guess I understand why that is, now. . . .

Anonymous Rabbit Response Squad June 16, 2014 8:55 AM  

NAMBLA is the next big thing...

The Right to Pedistry is the new Gay Marriage of the 2020s...

The queers lower the age of consent to say, age 10... and POOF... no more child rape.

MZB was just a trendsetter.

Anonymous Daniel June 16, 2014 8:56 AM  

I really don't think it is fair for you to defend victims of child rape without providing the members of SFWA a safe plan of exit from the organization. Between the cases of elder abuse and child rape, it isn't enough to provide the SFWA's member-victims with awareness that they are being preyed upon. There must be an intervention. I call on the United States Senate to review the SFWA's non-profit status, and to review the possibility that they are operating as a front for child pornography rings. There are lessons learned from the Second Mile scandal that could benefit the SFWA.

Anonymous bob k. mando June 16, 2014 8:57 AM  

formal position on homosexuality, child molestation, torture and incestuous rape by its members. I look forward to reading your response.
Sincerely, Vox Day




oh, you naughty, NAUGHTY boy.


Eric Wilson June 16, 2014 2:32 AM
Is liberalism a weird form of Stockholm's Syndrome?



yes. is that supposed to be a trick question?
http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2014/06/15/president-carrington/

Blogger J. Sullivan June 16, 2014 9:01 AM  

I can't exactly say you've saved my life, but you and John C. Wright have both helped me (unknowingly by the two of you, I am sure) get through my long, dark time of cynicism and helped bring me back to the Church.

I thank you both.

Anonymous Anonymous June 16, 2014 9:02 AM  

She advanced the cause of leftism. That's all that matters, all that ever matters.

One funny thing is, they occasionally purge one of their own for far smaller offenses than this, just for practice and keeping the troops in line. But when they're told that one of theirs is corrupt, they can't help but circle the wagons. I think the reason is simple: each leftist considers himself to be in the inner circle, so he'll always be the purging, not the purged, as long as those decisions are internal. But if they start bowing to external pressures -- especially from those hated conservatives! -- then he might be next.

I assume all these people will be taking back everything nasty they ever said about homosexual priests who had sex with teenage boys. Many of those priests inspired people, helped the poor and hungry, and saved souls, so we have to see their actions in context. If the occasional boy committed suicide after being groomed into a homosexual relationship, well, omelettes and eggs, you know.

Anonymous Anonymous June 16, 2014 9:14 AM  

By the way, something I've wondered: why do they think they're scoring points by using Vox's real name instead of his published pseudonym? They obviously think they are, but I don't get why.

Anonymous Athor Pel June 16, 2014 9:17 AM  

Just finished the prose part of The Glass Bead Game.

Very funny.

I say that with two meanings. One being that I laughed at the end, and two that I feel like I've been had.

Blogger Rick67 June 16, 2014 9:18 AM  

He closed comments after what? 5-6 responses? The one by Joel Solomon was excellent; intelligent, logical, and informed. It's not like he closed the comments after 50-100 people said "commie skum!" or variations thereof. Classic concern trolling. And utterly pathetic and unimpressive.

Blogger Sharon Secor June 16, 2014 9:19 AM  

That was a perfect letter, Vox. Pitch and tone exactly right, faultlessly polite, simple and straightforward, firm and logical. Honestly, I don't expect that they'll answer. After all, what can they say? A truthful, sane answer could only admit that they wronged you. I must admit, however, I hope that they do answer, because I can already see that they won't take the truthful, honest path. I'm looking forward to their twisted justification of their behavior and the means by which they attempt to contort commonly accepted reality so as to appear perfectly correct in casting your "offensive" tweet as being more heinous than ongoing child rape and sexual torture. I feel a little guilty about looking forward to how much they will hurt themselves during these vile contortions, how batshit insane and depraved they will make themselves look so very publically, and how long those words will remain on the internet, haunting them, proving their irrelevance and flat out ugliness.

Anonymous VD June 16, 2014 9:24 AM  

Honestly, I don't expect that they'll answer.

Ah, I can see it now: "SFWA refuses to denounce child abuse, rape".

Blogger William Hughes June 16, 2014 9:26 AM  

When I was a lad I read a book by MZB about a swordsman abducted from his sailboat and made to fight in a tournament. Red Moon?

This revelation of hers makes me look at my thirty year old collection of tattered paperbacks with deep suspicion. I can't help but look at some of the Darkover stuff and think, did she she do some of this to her own child?

Anonymous Thales June 16, 2014 9:33 AM  

They'd be happy to have their daughters give oral sex to keep SF pink.

Anonymous Edjamacator June 16, 2014 9:38 AM  

Well, hey, what's a little child rape among leftists? It's not like it's a crime or anything, right? And don't you know, the crime of actually being a non-leftist (and therefore racist, homophobe, etc) is far worse than anything else. So really, you just have to keep the right perspective.

Anonymous FangFan June 16, 2014 9:48 AM  

1. If the actions of dead people invalidate current institutions, looks like Thomas Jefferson was a rapist... so sat goodbye to youro precious constitution and 2nd ammendment.

2) It is a fact that MZB allegedly engaged in consensual sex that was STATUARY rape. Look up what "statuary" means. It means non-violent i.e nonrape-rape. Meanwhile the blog owner here advocates violent nonconsensual rape of a wife by a husband, i.e. rape-rape.

Blogger IM2L844 June 16, 2014 9:50 AM  

why do they think they're scoring points by using Vox's real name

Because liberals are spoiled children. It's tantamount to "neener-neener."

Anonymous hygate June 16, 2014 9:50 AM  

The reason given for ending comments:

"UPDATE: I am no longer taking comments on this thread. What I've received so far doesn't inspire me to hope for a meeting of minds:

- two mildly hostile misunderstandings
- two wrong-headed attempts to establish equivalence between Beale and Jemisin's comments.
- a discussion about whether Beale's comments were offensive or not.

As I think the one thing all parties would agree on is that this is not getting any of us anywhere, let's stop here."

Has someone earlier in the thread noted, Atkinson ended the comments because the commenters did not accept his premises. Horror of horror, they challenged them and that is something that cannot be allowed.

Anonymous Dr. Kenneth Noisewater June 16, 2014 9:54 AM  

If only Vox raped and tortured children instead of being a realist, all would be forgiven.

Isn't that a Satanist sacrament?

Anonymous AXCrom June 16, 2014 9:57 AM  

Fangfan,

From Merriam-Webster:
Full Definition of STATUARY
1: sculptor
2a: the art of making statues
b : a collection of statues

Did you mean statutory? Looks like CurtD has a new handle.

Anonymous Krul June 16, 2014 9:58 AM  

As a former life member of SFWA expelled by the current SFWA Board for a tweet deemed inappropriate, I should be very interested to hear SFWA's formal position on homosexuality, child molestation, torture and incestuous rape by its members.

Why is homosexuality on this list? You know they openly approve of that.

Anonymous hygate June 16, 2014 9:59 AM  

I especially like the, "you don't want people to associate right-wing SF with raciss do you!?" concern trolling.

I had occasion to google Jerry Pournelle (actually bing) this morning. The second auto completed line presented is "jerry pournelle racist." I assume that is because in Footfall he and Niven had cannabilism and some of the characters engaging in it, in order to survive, not all, were black. I have seen commentary that this alone is racism.

Jemison herself has called Heinlein a straight out racist or words to that effect.

To the pink SF brigade the racism of non-pink SF is an underlying premise in their thinking.

Anonymous Krul June 16, 2014 10:00 AM  

FangFan - 2) It is a fact that MZB allegedly engaged in consensual sex that was STATUARY rape. Look up what "statuary" means. It means non-violent i.e nonrape-rape. Meanwhile the blog owner here advocates violent nonconsensual rape of a wife by a husband, i.e. rape-rape.

So let me get this straight. You approve of pedophilia and pederasty, provided the children give their consent. Is this correct?

Anonymous LOL June 16, 2014 10:02 AM  

It is a fact that MZB allegedly engaged in consensual sex that was STATUARY rape. Look up what "statuary" means.

She, um, had forcible sex with the garden gnome in her front yard?

Wouldn't put it past her, the pervert.

Blogger jaericho June 16, 2014 10:10 AM  

"Great to see MZB's Legacy Continue!"
- Jim Hines, Hugo Award-winning SFWA member


Is this the same Jim Hines who has a Rape Resources category on his website and says that he trained hundreds of hours to be a crisis counselor? It would be a little ironic if it was.

Anonymous Krul June 16, 2014 10:20 AM  

FangFan - Meanwhile the blog owner here advocates violent nonconsensual rape of a wife by a husband, i.e. rape-rape.

Take two people, person A and person B.

Person A has said that marriage constitutes consent, meaning that "rape" within wedlock is impossible. This has been construed by others as advocacy of marital rape.

Person B openly advocates and actively commits rape. Not marital rape, but rape of minors including her own children.

Now. Do you really think you're going to fool anyone into thinking that these two are morally equivalent?

Anonymous Leonidas June 16, 2014 10:20 AM  

Somehow I never knew any of this about Bradley. But then, after hearing all about how amazing her stuff was, I put down Mists of Avalon about 1/4 of the way through because it was terrible. I've read literally thousands of fiction novels, and I can count the number I haven't actually finished on my fingers and toes. Bradley made that list with distinction. Funny thing is, it's been so long now that I can't even remember why it was so terrible - only that it was.

Unlike, say, Throne of Bones, which I simply couldn't put down. It saved my life... from boredom, anyway.

Anonymous Josh June 16, 2014 10:20 AM  

2) It is a fact that MZB allegedly engaged in consensual sex that was STATUARY rape. Look up what "statuary" means. It means non-violent i.e nonrape-rape. Meanwhile the blog owner here advocates violent nonconsensual rape of a wife by a husband, i.e. rape-rape.

Are you Todd Akin?

Anonymous bob k. mando June 16, 2014 10:23 AM  

FangFan June 16, 2014 9:48 AM
2) It is a fact that MZB allegedly engaged in consensual sex that was STATUARY rape ... It means non-violent i.e nonrape-rape.




a - it was NOT consensual
b - you mean STATUTORY rape. and if you don't want statutory rape to be rape, the first thing i suggest you do is go down to the prison and free all the 19 year old 'men' who have been imprisoned for consensual sex with 17 year old 'girls'.
c - child molesters ALWAYS say that the child 'wanted it'.
d - we have it on good feminist authority that ALL penis-in-vagina sex is rape ... funny how the definitions change to suit the current leftist argument du jour.
e - Ann Morgan?




Krul June 16, 2014 9:58 AM
Why is homosexuality on this list? You know they openly approve of that.



*dope slap*

Vox knows what he's doing. i know what he's doing. Gould probably knows what he's doing.

think on it. think on the HISTORY of the issues.

think on the proclivities ( and the attempted normalization thereof ) of the parties in question.

Blogger vandelay June 16, 2014 10:30 AM  

Where was Hines' comment from?

Anonymous NateM June 16, 2014 10:30 AM  

It is a fact that MZB allegedly engaged in consensual sex that was STATUARY rape. Look up what "statuary" means. It means non-violent i.e nonrape-rape. Meanwhile the blog owner here advocates violent nonconsensual rape of a wife by a husband, i.e. rape-rape.

You just went full Retard.

"Statuary Rape". That marble was tough... well if she didn't want to be raped she shouldn't have been wearing that toga with her breast exposed

Anonymous Krul June 16, 2014 10:33 AM  

Including homosexuality is counterproductive, bob. In the first place, the SFWA already openly endorses homosexuality, so there's no question. In the second, inclusion of homosexuality on the list will allow the SFWA and any pinks to avoid the issue by saying they feel no obligation to dignify the ravings of a "homophobe" with an honest answer.

They can say that anyway, of course, but including homosexuality (of which they openly approve) next to the other items (of which they don't openly approve) adds credibility to their evasion.

Anonymous Anonymous June 16, 2014 10:33 AM  

"It's going to be fun watching SFWA members begin distancing themselves, heading step by step towards the exit."
Salt,
I bet they double down!

Anonymous Anonymous June 16, 2014 10:35 AM  

"It is a fact that MZB allegedly...."
Far as I got..

CaptDMO.

Anonymous VD June 16, 2014 10:40 AM  

If the actions of dead people invalidate current institutions, looks like Thomas Jefferson was a rapist... so sat goodbye to youro precious constitution and 2nd ammendment.

First, you have no evidence that Thomas Jefferson raped anyone. Second, Thomas Jefferson did not write the U.S. Constitution or the Second Amendment. Marion Zimmer Bradley's acts do not invalidate SFWA, the fact that SFWA still celebrates Marion Zimmer Bradley and refuses to cut its ties to her despite knowing of her evil actions invalidates SFWA.

It is a fact that MZB allegedly engaged in consensual sex that was STATUARY rape.

Ann Morgan, you are a remarkably stupid and evil woman. You are trying to simultaneously argue that a three year-old girl can consent to sex with her mother, but an adult woman does not consent to sex with her husband when she marries him.

And every time you comment, I'm going to remind everyone that you are pro-child molestation.

Is this the same Jim Hines who has a Rape Resources category on his website and says that he trained hundreds of hours to be a crisis counselor?

Yep, it's McCreepy. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets off on it. Hell, the guy looks like a cartoon of a molester.

Where was Hines' comment from?

An Amazon review of a Bradley-related book. 2007, I believe.

Anonymous bw June 16, 2014 10:43 AM  

gave a start to a lot of women writers—a higher percentage than anyone else in the genre at the time. Those writers helped pave the way for even more female voices in the genre.

Anything - including child rape/molestation and beyond - to secure the female imperative, and its subsequent results on the human race.
Anything.
Self-loathing, Murderous, Ab-humans. And lo, in the upside down thought-speak of Orwell/Blair, they called it "progress".
As exemplified by the petulant, childish, excusing word games involving "non-rape rape".


Anonymous Trimegistus June 16, 2014 10:45 AM  

I've said this on Ace's blog but couldn't find any takers: we need a systematic program of digging into the personal lives of all leading liberals -- especially editors, news producers, network and studio executives, and others with genuine influence (the "journalists" are just sockpuppets who repeat what they're given). It would be useful to have. Info which is public but not well-known (as with MZB's rapist history) can be fired off at once to collect a few scalps and destroy some careers.

Stuff which is not known to the public can be used for more effective leverage. How would CBS's coverage of Obama change if one of their senior producers knew that his statutory-rape history could be made public if he doesn't go along?

Anonymous Anonymous June 16, 2014 10:52 AM  

I think that is exactly what occurs now. They have the dirt, and it is a small part of the complete lack of courage.

Anonymous Anonymous June 16, 2014 10:59 AM  

Why is homosexuality on this list? You know they openly approve of that.

That's the best part. Remember, you can't actually engage a leftist rationally. The goal here isn't to get them into a rational discussion, make them see that they've been hypocrites, get them to apologize, and have everyone learn a little something. They're not capable of any of that, because they don't do rational, nor do they do apologies.

So what's the point? To give them rope, to help them look stupid. Including homosexuality on the list will send them into a tizzy of hate-speech accusations and trying to draw fine distinctions between that and the other items on the list. And in all of the blather that's sure to result from including that one word on the list, they still will not be condemning child rape, which just makes them look worse and worse. "Why are they making such a big deal about that, when there are bigger issues here? Why won't they come out against raping children? What do they have to hide?"

Anonymous buzzcut June 16, 2014 11:01 AM  

Statuary rape is not as hot as Ann Morgan would have us all believe. After a while it's kind of boring and you just feel stupid doing it.

Anonymous Giraffe June 16, 2014 11:02 AM  

1. If the actions of dead people invalidate current institutions, looks like Thomas Jefferson was a rapist... so sat goodbye to youro precious constitution and 2nd ammendment.

No it doesn't, silly. It may change how we view him, and if SWFA gave Thomas Jefferson any awards, they should rescind them. Cause he a racist rapist. An author being a rapin' raciss' doesn't unwrite the books they wrote, it just affects the HONOR one might or might not give them.

2) It is a fact that MZB allegedly engaged in consensual sex that was STATUARY rape. Look up what "statuary" means. It means non-violent i.e nonrape-rape. Meanwhile the blog owner here advocates violent nonconsensual rape of a wife by a husband, i.e. rape-rape.

Oh Noes! Vox is a rapin' raciss too! I shall not vote for him!

Blogger Pulp Herb June 16, 2014 11:03 AM  

@Rabbit Response Squad:

NAMBLA is the next big thing...

The Right to Pedistry is the new Gay Marriage of the 2020s...

The queers lower the age of consent to say, age 10... and POOF... no more child rape.

MZB was just a trendsetter.


I'm not sure if you meant this as satire or prediction. Given I'm on record as expecting the first state court case revoking a minister's ability to legally marry a couple because he refuses to do gay marriages by 2020 I certainly read it as the latter. Except for the age 10 bit. I seem to remember reading of a NAMBLA slogan, "Before eight or it's too late."

Anonymous Stickwick June 16, 2014 11:16 AM  

cailcorishev: She advanced the cause of leftism. That's all that matters, all that ever matters.

Yes, and have you ever noticed how much leftists are like women in this regard? When a woman ostensibly disqualifies a guy for having an incorrect opinion, it's really just because she doesn't find him attractive; on the flip side, when a woman finds a man sufficiently attractive, she'll excuse all kinds of horrible things. Likewise, leftists will overlook all sorts of nasty things, if they find a person otherwise appealing or useful to their cause. It's why Alec Baldwin got a pass for his "homophobic" behavior for so long, but Mr. Chik fil-A didn't. It's only until the behavior becomes so egregious -- or egregious behavior becomes public -- that no one can reasonably be seen to support the person that they'll purge him/her from the ranks.

Blogger The Deuce June 16, 2014 11:21 AM  

Why is homosexuality on this list? You know they openly approve of that

Presumably to expose who these people are even further, when they inevitably work themselves into an insane sanctimonious rage over Vox comparing homosexuality to child rape and torture, while being unable to show any anger over actual child rape and torture at all.

We will also be able to point out that, while they pretend indignation over Vox associating homosexuality with child abuse by his words, they aren't bothered by Bradley and Breen associating the two by their actions.

Anonymous YimYam June 16, 2014 11:46 AM  

I don't necessarily care for Vox's position on many things.... but this concern trolling is getting obnoxious.

Tim Atkinson, I hope you read this. Maybe you're getting alot of pats on the back for leading this charge, but at what cost?
You're like one of those ladies that live in my neighborhood that try to shame and guilt other neighbors away from associating with that one family on the street that they don't like. It's more than embarrassing.... it's disgusting.

You know that they lack the spine to just stand their own ground so they need to drum up as much support as they can. You're that lady, Tim

You do this pathetic, embarrassing thing of trying to say "oh golly.... you don't want to associate with Vox, because you know what that will mean for you."

But you're one of the people that's creating the whole situation.
You don't like what Vox says so you scream "Racist!!"
That doesn't take so to fake concern for others you yell, "Racist!! Look out!!"
But you don't really care if they look out or not. You just need people to agree with you. Because you lack the strength to do this on your own.

The concern of "Racist! Look Out!" doesn't work for you so then you try to be more sly about it.
"Hey, you know.... I might have to point and yell 'RACIST' at you too if you don't avoid all association with that Vox."

Unbelievable.
Tim Atkinson, you are a coward.
And you don't have to agree with or even like Vox to admit that.

Let's say this.
If both you and Vox had no external support for what you both are saying. If you had no cheers and back pats for "doin the right thing" which of you do you think would stay the course?
You know and I know you would wilt like a rose on blacktop in the middle of July.

You're not motivated by "Vox, you say disgusting things and i disagree with them"
You're motivated by, "Hey everyone! Look at me being disgusted at Vox and disagreeing with what he says."

Blogger IM2L844 June 16, 2014 11:52 AM  

the blog owner here advocates violent nonconsensual rape of a wife by a husband

Blatant lie or the pinnacle of ignorance. Which is it? Spoiled children are predisposed to attributing malicious intent to anyone who disagrees with them. My 3 year old granddaughter thinks I'm evil each time I insist, against her grandiose protestations, that her ideas are not great, but she'll eventually grow up. Most liberals never do.

Anonymous Randy M June 16, 2014 11:56 AM  

>Where was Hines' comment from?

>An Amazon review of a Bradley-related book. 2007, I believe.

I admire your thoroughness.

Anonymous bw June 16, 2014 11:58 AM  

risks contaminating by implication conservative/libertarian positions in science-fiction.

Translation: WE will define what an acceptable political idea is and is not; no one can be a libertarian and believe in inequality. That is not allowed, and there is no room for anyone describing themselves thus to exist on this planet.

NAMBLA is the next big thing...

The evidence suggests it has been for some time. As noted above, the political powers are simply blackmailed to do the bidding of the Elites - if they were not, they would never be in a position to wield the (surrogate) power.

All the Slavers need do is convince self-loathing, failed, hateful, and child rape-enabling abhumans like Atkinson to do most of the work for them. It is understandable that they would destroy themselves, but they musn't be allowed to destroy true men and women and what has always been living and beautiful.

There is no place in the universe for Tim Atkinson in the reset. None.


Anonymous Daniel June 16, 2014 11:59 AM  

They can say that anyway, of course, but including homosexuality (of which they openly approve) next to the other items (of which they don't openly approve) adds credibility to their evasion.

Think about it a little longer Krul. You are mistaking the bait for feeding the fish...this isn't Vox's first rodeo.

Anonymous Rolf June 16, 2014 12:09 PM  

Trimegistus - Investigating backgrounds of statists would not make any difference. They would dismiss all misbehavior uncovered as "private," and say it's irrelevant because they are not claiming they are trying to be moral busybodies and run your life like those on the right, so it's only the right that can be hypocrites for poor personal behavior, never anyone on the left, because they are tolerant and not so hate-filled, bigoted, and personal.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 June 16, 2014 12:12 PM  

I'd say that VD has a nice vice grip around these yahoo's balls. Including the female ones.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 16, 2014 12:26 PM  

Statuary rape...

And you people probably laughed at John Ashcroft. He was just trying to protect Lady Justice from leftist perverts.

Anonymous Tom Daschle cum Trent Lott June 16, 2014 12:30 PM  

they occasionally purge one of their own for far smaller offenses than this, just for practice and keeping the troops in line.

See also: "Politicians"

Anonymous Daniel June 16, 2014 12:39 PM  

Trimegistus - Investigating backgrounds of statists would not make any difference. They would dismiss all misbehavior uncovered as "private," and say it's irrelevant because they are not claiming they are trying to be moral busybodies and run your life like those on the right, so it's only the right that can be hypocrites for poor personal behavior, never anyone on the left, because they are tolerant and not so hate-filled, bigoted, and personal.

That's a good review of how a pinkshirt thinks, Rolf. But it is also irrelevant to how they are perceived. The key is to hold up the mirror, and when they can't see their own reflection, it merely proves to everyone else that they are indeed a dangerous vampire.

Anonymous FP June 16, 2014 12:43 PM  

"Marion Zimmer Bradley's perversions are unacceptable to a modern world where, Two Girls, One Cup is legal to own, (If you don't get the reference, you don't want to)."

They were just sharing some rocky road ice cream. MZB was just sharing a love of gnome statuary apparently.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 June 16, 2014 12:57 PM  

Still nothing on MZB at Wikipedia about how she engaged in child molestation. Just brief mention of her husband's and how she "accepted" it.

Anonymous Heinlein's Ghost June 16, 2014 1:07 PM  

Why is anyone talking about a long dead sexual predator when the SFWA's award ceremony is currently figureheaded by Samuel Delany? Here's all you need to know- an organization dedicated to child rape has a page in honor of outspoken child rape advocate SFWA/Nebula Grandmaster Samuel R. Delany. If you don't believe me go to their site and type in /delaney.html

Do you really think you can reason with these people?

Anonymous Krul June 16, 2014 1:10 PM  

Daniel - Think about it a little longer Krul. You are mistaking the bait for feeding the fish...this isn't Vox's first rodeo.

Now you mention it, I suppose including homosexuality along with the crimes might make it more likely for them to respond in outrage over "homophobia", thus bringing attention to the charge. Still, it looks like it would only redirect the discussion from SFWA's hypocritical acceptance of MZB to VD's "homophobia", facilitating their evasions. I'm not an expert in this stuff, obviously, but I'm trying to understand it well enough to follow along.

But the point is that the Beale-boosting contaminated by association the conservatives-and-libertarians-overlooked-in-SF position the slate was intended at least in part to raise.

Why are they trying so hard to separate VD from the rest of the avowed blues, anyway? What's so special about VD that they want to distance him from the rest of the Hateocracy?

Anonymous Harsh June 16, 2014 1:13 PM  

Why are they trying so hard to separate VD from the rest of the avowed blues, anyway? What's so special about VD that they want to distance him from the rest of the Hateocracy?

It's classic divide-and-conquer strategy. They figure (wrongly) that Vox is the easiest to ostracize and when that's done they'll move onto their next target until the blue team crumbles.

Anonymous rycamor June 16, 2014 1:14 PM  

Heinlein's Ghost... haven't you been reading here? Vox's tactic is purely about exposing the rot and forcing them to show their hand. The fact that you can't reason with them only makes them more predictable.

Anonymous u June 16, 2014 1:24 PM  

pedophobia

Anonymous patrick kelly June 16, 2014 1:28 PM  

"Why are they trying so hard to separate VD from the rest of the avowed blues, anyway? What's so special about VD that they want to distance him from the rest of the Hateocracy?"

They want to enjoy purple umbrellas and soccer without being associated with him.

Anonymous automatthew June 16, 2014 1:32 PM  

Krul: Now you mention it, I suppose including homosexuality along with the crimes might make it more likely for them to respond in outrage over "homophobia", thus bringing attention to the charge. Still, it looks like it would only redirect the discussion from SFWA's hypocritical acceptance of MZB to VD's "homophobia", facilitating their evasions. I'm not an expert in this stuff, obviously, but I'm trying to understand it well enough to follow along.

The target is not the same as the audience. And regarding the targets' ability to redirect the discussion, how well have they done that so far? Vox understands their behavior well enough to lay traps within traps within traps.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 16, 2014 1:43 PM  

Krul, I think cailcorishev got it right. This will cause them to go into conniptions differentiating gays from pedos, likely even trying to claim gays are less likely to be pedo's, at which point you can reply "but MZB was both..."

Anonymous Heh June 16, 2014 1:52 PM  

It's classic divide-and-conquer strategy. They figure (wrongly) that Vox is the easiest to ostracize and when that's done they'll move onto their next target until the blue team crumbles.

So Vox is the Italy of the SF Axis?

And Larry Correia is Germany and John C. Wright is Japan?

Kratman is Finland... smaller but highly professional and effective.

Anonymous NateM June 16, 2014 1:55 PM  

"Is this the same Jim Hines who has a Rape Resources category on his website "

Yup. Its a link to Ace Hardware.

But it Is strange that Walter Brern is recognized as the foremost pedophile in SFF and MZB isn't. Typical Male privilege.

Anonymous VD June 16, 2014 2:12 PM  

They figure (wrongly) that Vox is the easiest to ostracize and when that's done they'll move onto their next target until the blue team crumbles.

Quite the opposite. They know that I am impervious to their pressure. So, they need to isolate me and render me harmless lest others who don't agree with them see that their social pressure is impotent.

That's why Larry frightens them even more than I do. They can live with dismissing me as an extremist and an outlier even though they can't force me to back down. But Larry is an order of magnitude more popular than I am. So, some of them are trying to separate us and win him back to the herd lest we show that one can safely break away from the herd.

They don't realize that we are not the nucleus of a new and rival herd. They don't understand that we are not like them, we are not herd animals.

Anonymous Krul June 16, 2014 2:13 PM  

Heh - And Larry Correia is Germany and John C. Wright is Japan?

The Tetsubo is Germany and the Rapier is Japan? Nah.

Maybe if LC were a Zweihänder and JW were a ninjato.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 16, 2014 2:30 PM  

So Vox is the Italy of the SF Axis?

And Larry Correia is Germany and John C. Wright is Japan?


Possibly you have the sides confused. Of course, that would mean someone had to be France...

Anonymous Heh June 16, 2014 2:37 PM  

Possibly you have the sides confused. Of course, that would mean someone had to be France...

Nah. Axis strategy in WW2, such as it was, was not divide and conquer. That's among the reasons they lost.

Anonymous MendoScot June 16, 2014 2:43 PM  

Statuary rape...

...giving a whole new meaning to getting your rocks off.

facilitating their evasions

Down that road lies badness. Chance would be a fine thing.

Anonymous Trimegistus June 16, 2014 3:00 PM  

I'm still not certain whether child-rape or polygamy is the next Fundamental Human Freedom that liberals will discover they always have supported. It's a tough call: child-rape appeals to the gay perverts who are apparently now the ideological core of the left, but polygamy lets them make a closer alliance with Islamic terror organizations -- and plays to the overweight super-beta "polyamory" crowd so numerous in SF fandom.

My prediction: polygamy is the low-hanging fruit so they'll go for that first. Probably via a court case challenging existing definitions of marriage under the First Amendment (and using the gay marriage precedent). I'm guessing that will suddenly become an issue in 2015, leading up to the Presidential election of 2016 when a liberal candidate can get sworn in by an Imam now that Christian oppression of Muslim polygamists is finally ended.

They'll leave child-rape for later, after a few more years to propagandize. Expect a couple of "controversial" films and TV shows to tackle the subject over the next few years. Also expect some legal challenges to age-of-consent laws, probably involving lesbians or African immigrant arranged marriages.

Anonymous CorkyAgain June 16, 2014 3:17 PM  

NAMBLA is the next big thing...

Yep. I've been saying that for a while now. It's one of the few things left that has the "transgressiveness" necessary for signalling one's membership in the "enlightened" cultural elite.

Anonymous Anonymous June 16, 2014 3:22 PM  

Quite the opposite. They know that I am impervious to their pressure. So, they need to isolate me and render me harmless lest others who don't agree with them see that their social pressure is impotent.

Hmm... that sounds familiar.... #13 on Alinsky's Rules for Radicals

Blogger Tommy Hass June 16, 2014 3:22 PM  

I'm actually saddened that all of you, including Vox failed to get the sarcasm of the "statuary rape" guy. He was coming up with the most likely response these people would use.

Anonymous yammer June 16, 2014 3:30 PM  

Expect a couple of "controversial" films and TV shows to tackle the subject over the next few years.

You are already seeing this pal. The whole "stop bullying" campaign ... bullies are supposedly attacking "gays" who are in high school, even middle school. But how is a boy "homosexual" in Middle school unless he is having sex with another boy? Notice all the LGBT clubs you see in High Schools, Middle Schools, soon even Elementary Schools. Furthermore, consider most homosexuals are recruited by older men "queens" who purposely target teenage boys to have sex with. These boys grow up to be the next "queen" and the cycle continues. The gay population can only grow via recruitment, otherwise they go the way of the Shakers.

Anonymous DanG June 16, 2014 3:47 PM  

"Do you really think you're going to fool anyone into thinking that these two are morally equivalent?"

I have been refreshing and scrolling, hoping to see a reply to this.

Nothing.

C'mon FangFan, we know you have a really "good" answer to this. Please give it a try.

Anonymous Peter Pan June 16, 2014 3:47 PM  

What would be a truly unexpected move by SFWA, would be if they offered to restore Vox's membership in light of their organization's internal contradiction. If Vox declines the new membership, SFWA could point to his refusal as evidence of his intolerance and their own enlightened tolerance. These events would keep Vox as the bad guy, and even allow them to keep MZB on a pedestal.

If Vox accepts the offer, however, then SFWA can point to his letter as evidence that Vox is both hypocritical and an intolerant homophobe--hypocritical for criticizing an organization which he rejoined after the letter was written, and an intolerant homophobe for associating homosexuality with child molestation and rape. Vox's hypocrisy would allow them to keep MZB, and his perceived intolerance and homophobia would eventually allow them to purge him a second time.

Of course, either way SFWA will avoid addressing the fact that they honor, love, and continue to support a proven nasty like MZB. But the above scenarios will never play out because Vox is so utterly reviled by SFWA that his membership will never be offered back to him. And even if it was offered to him, I doubt Vox would accept it. If by some improbable chance the planets aligned for two impossibilities to occur, and SFWA offered to restore membership to an accepting Vox, the organization would immediately backtrack and rescind their offer. Once their gambit failed to produce the desired results (Vox's refusal), not only would they rescind it, but thenceforth they would deny the offer ever occurred.

Blogger Marissa June 16, 2014 4:22 PM  

The gay population can only grow via recruitment, otherwise they go the way of the Shakers.

Feminist cat ladies too. They groom their victims like vampires. The "reproduction" process is really quite similar and is a grotesque mockery of procreation.

Anonymous Amok Time June 16, 2014 4:41 PM  

"SFWA purged me from its ranks for a single tweet,"

I must have missed that tweet. What was the text of it?

Anonymous FL June 16, 2014 4:59 PM  

nonrape-rape... rape-rape.

You're positively disgusting. And lying and you know it. Rape is rape. However, MZB's daughter has accused her of incestuous rape by her own mother. You try to equate unequal things : indeed, logically there cannot be rape in marriage. The argument of violence is already punished in its own right. There is no need to add a separate crime definition of marital rape. Quite contrary to a woman being assaulted by a complete stranger, let's say by a man who told her he's called Scalzi. As far as your rape-rape is concerned : a woman who wants to withdraw consent can divorce. What legal recourse did MZB's daughter and son have? Could they withdraw their "consent" of having sex with their own mother? Could they "divorce" their mother? And, since when, and under which jurisdiction, can people (not only children, but even adults), consent to incest?

You're a despicable, pitiable human.

Anonymous Daniel June 16, 2014 5:28 PM  

I must have missed that tweet. What was the text of it?

He mistakenly described a self-declared full-savage to be similar to half-savages. I think it was akin to calling a full-blooded black an octaroon.

Blogger Deirdre Saoirse Moen June 16, 2014 6:37 PM  

"Why is anyone talking about a long dead sexual predator when the SFWA's award ceremony is currently figureheaded by Samuel Delaney?"

On the first half: Because it wasn't known until I posted Moira's emails on June 10th, 2014 that MZB had raped her own daughter. Until then, it was only documented that she enabled her husband's pederasty.

On the second half: The fact that Samuel Delaney was (I don't know if that's still true, but it was true by his own words) a NAMBLA member is something I didn't know about until the whole MZB story broke. I read Dhalgren ages ago, but haven't read his other work, so I haven't paid much attention to his history.

Since I haven't explicitly stated it elsewhere: I may be a pinko liberal who's all for whatever two (or more) consenting adults do that's safe and sane (and my definitions of safe and sane probably differ from yours), but I do not support NAMBLA or its goals.

I have been an Associate SFWA member for ages (one could argue that I'm doing it wrong), primarily to show support for the Emergency Medical Fund, the Writer Beware functions, and the oh, whatever the group is called that handles complaints about not being paid.

Anonymous kh123 June 16, 2014 6:41 PM  

"I have been refreshing and scrolling, hoping to see a reply to this."

Ann's at the mirror trying to build up the courage. Also, whichever ironic new handle to post under.

Anonymous The other skeptic June 16, 2014 7:38 PM  

It is interesting that what Eich did was infinitely less disgusting than what these two icons of some members of the SFWA have done.

1. Interesting in the sense of the behavior they will support (by failing to condemn it.)

2. Of course, Eich did nothing that is disgusting at all.

Anonymous ChicagoRefugee June 16, 2014 8:20 PM  

Let us not forget Samuel "Chip" Delaney - advocate for diversity in Sci Fi and NAMBLA apologist. Surely he deserves an honorable mention in this regard?

Anonymous Leon Trotsky June 16, 2014 8:30 PM  

Deirdre Saoirse Moen ...excited to join the blacklist?

Anonymous bob k. mando June 16, 2014 8:52 PM  

Krul June 16, 2014 10:33 AM
Including homosexuality is counterproductive, bob.



if we had a PM function i would man-splain this too you.

as it is, all i'm going to say is: it makes perfect sense and accomplishes exactly what Vox intends. it's not 'counterproductive' because you are misapprehending Vox's goals ( not to mention that it is ALSO the actual moral position ).




VD June 16, 2014 10:40 AM
Thomas Jefferson did not write the U.S. Constitution or the Second Amendment.



in point of fact, Jefferson didn't debate, sign or vote on the Constitution or any of it's first 10 amendments. he was in France, acting as ambassador at the time the Constitution was formulated.



VD June 16, 2014 10:40 AM
Ann Morgan, you are a remarkably stupid and evil woman.



did i call that or what?

i would place more emphasis on stupid than evil though. she's got a goal she wants to reach ( Xtians r b the debbil ) and, in typical female fashion, she's woman-splaining her way to it rather than actually trying to reason things out.



Krul June 16, 2014 1:10 PM
Why are they trying so hard to separate VD from the rest of the avowed blues, anyway?



divide and conquer your opponents piecemeal. it's easier to do when everyone on the right is atomized and not acting in cohort.

the flip side of this is the historical habit of marxists of generating dozens ( if not hundreds ) of 'different' organizations but if you investigate them you find that they share a majority of the directing committees. which in that case functions as the construction of a false majority and consensus.

for the secret history of the Left, check out David Horowitz and FrontPageMag.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/

Horowitz grew up a Red Diaper baby and was an overt Marxist until well up into the 80s. he knows all the history because he helped create much of it.

Anonymous The other skeptic June 16, 2014 8:57 PM  

Let us not forget Samuel "Chip" Delaney

Oh, you mean the person of color that Jemisin looks up to? Why does it not surprise me that she idolizes someone who diddles little boys or girls.

Blogger Deirdre Saoirse Moen June 16, 2014 9:41 PM  

Leon, I don't believe in shunning people. That doesn't mean I believe there's value in talking to everyone, just that I'm not going to let anyone other than myself determine who I could/should speak to. Or what I could/should speak about.

That always came with costs.

Anonymous Duh June 16, 2014 10:22 PM  

Edit it yourself then

Anonymous Leon Trotsky June 16, 2014 10:45 PM  

Deirdre ... You still have time to delete these comments. Or else risk being "contaminated"... because once they brand you a "racist/homophobe/ fascist" the there is no turning back other than total submission.

Anonymous rho June 17, 2014 12:27 AM  

They don't realize that we are not the nucleus of a new and rival herd. They don't understand that we are not like them, we are not herd animals.

That's a delicious metaphor. It covers quite a lot of territory and succinctly describes the philosophical divisions.

What's really funny is that they probably think of Christians as being sheeple who simply follow the herd, while they think of themselves as being rigorous, independent free-thinkers.

I appreciate Deirdre's position on this. And, from a biblical standpoint, it has precedent. God may use ungodly things or people for His purposes, and I am ill-prepared to judge when He is or is not doing so. Deirdre has spoken on this, and has clarified her position, and I think it's quite reasonable.

Anonymous tiredofitall June 17, 2014 1:58 AM  

"I'm actually saddened that all of you, including Vox failed to get the sarcasm of the "statuary rape" guy. He was coming up with the most likely response these people would use." - Tommy Hass

No dude, it was just a drive-by trolling by Ann Morgan concern troll extraordinaire.

Anonymous VD June 17, 2014 6:15 AM  

Go away, Ann Morgan. You're a sick, sexually deviant woman who defends child rape and pedophilia. There is NO PLACE for child molesters here.

Anonymous VD June 17, 2014 6:39 AM  

Go away, Snowflake/Ann Morgan. There is no place for child molesters here.

This is the seventh time you have tried to comment here today.

Anonymous Anonymous June 17, 2014 7:17 AM  

Q: What's more boring than a lefty troll?
A: A lefty troll who can't keep up with the conversation, so she repeats the same stupid lines others already posted a day or two ago.

Anonymous bob k. mando June 17, 2014 7:22 AM  

to Ann Morgan, the most terrible reality of all is the one in which anyone OTHER THAN an adult woman has any say or influence on events.

it's really the Narcissists inability to comprehend ( much less respect ) the boundaries of others.

Zimmer Bradley gets off on fondling her own daughter? okay, because 'children don't have erogenous zones'.

a husband wants to have sex with his wife? impermissible because it interferes with the woman's absolute control of the relationshit ... and therefore must be characterized in the most ludicrous terms possible ( so if the woman has just given birth after 20 hours of labor the husband can demand to maritally rape her? you sick Christian bastards! ).

the reason why Ann runs to the defense of all adult women everywhere ( the reason of the Sisterhood, actually ), regardless of the vileness of their actions is simple: possession of the One, True, Glittery Hoohaa.

it's the flip side of every specific woman being a special snowflake who should be able to demand undying and sexually exclusive access from the man of her dreams.

because she doesn't actually respect the existence of anyone else, when confronted with a story about a different woman the only way she processes it is by casting herself ( identifying with ) whoever the adult woman in the story is.

Anonymous bob k. mando June 17, 2014 8:21 AM  

is by casting herself ( identifying with ) whoever


should be

"casting herself AS"

and yes, i am nitpicking my own prose.

*tips hat*

Blogger Matt June 17, 2014 11:21 AM  

Vox, have you Stephen Goldin's thoughts on MZB? Her husband apparently molested his step-son and he called for expulsion from the SFWA.

Anonymous Jane Doe March 14, 2016 1:46 AM  

Have you read “If All Men Were Brothers, Would You Let One Marry Your Sister?” by Theodore Sturgeon? It’s posted online. It defends incest; in this society, everybody of all ages has sex with everyone else, and the result is utopia. When I first read it, I assumed it was a thought experiment intended to shock, I didn’t think he meant it seriously. But one article about MZB’s daughter quoted her as saying that MZB believed that molesting children young would mold their personality in a way she thought was a good thing. Now I wonder if Sturgeon was from the same school of thought.

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