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Saturday, November 21, 2015

Brainstorm: Urban tactics survival

It was a very interesting session tonight, although it ended rather abruptly when my computer locked up for some reason. It ended up going into more detail on martial arts and the law than I would have thought beforehand, but then, both experts agreed that the single most important aspect of surviving a terror attack is mindset.

Even if THEY are attacking, YOU are the predator. Move. React. Escape if you can, attack if you can't, but whatever you do, do not lie there motionless leaving all the initiative up to them!

The other thing I took away from it is that 12 feet is the line of delineation. If they're more than 12 feet away, don't assume they can hit a moving target. That's just two body-lengths. It is a LOT harder than it looks, even with a fully-automatic weapon. 12 feet or more, exit laterally at speed. Less than 12 feet, attack forward.

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47 Comments:

Anonymous kfg November 21, 2015 9:30 PM  

The rule has been 21 feet for some time, but it is being rethought:

http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2007/10/rethinking-the-21-foot-rule.aspx

Anonymous Geoff November 21, 2015 9:34 PM  

VD, do you have any thoughts on the age factor? Say a guy's pushing 50 years old. Granted, he's still pretty fit but has never done MMA before. Is there any point in starting now?

Blogger Carl Philipp November 21, 2015 9:35 PM  

Will a transcript be available for those who weren't able to attend? I bought my membership too late.

Blogger Cataline Sergius November 21, 2015 9:45 PM  

That's just two body-lengths. It is a LOT harder than it looks, even with a fully-automatic weapon.

In my experience a weapon on full auto is mostly good for turning ammo into noise.

Anonymous kfg November 21, 2015 9:49 PM  

@2 Geoff: "Is there any point in starting now?"

Only if you want to improve.

Blogger Durandel Almiras November 21, 2015 10:03 PM  

@2 - Never too late to start.

Anonymous kfg November 21, 2015 10:04 PM  

And ya'll should read every word of this site, if you haven't already:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/

This one is worth a look as well:

http://straightforwardinacrookedworld.blogspot.com/

OpenID tz November 21, 2015 10:08 PM  

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HROsqfsJkx8

Anonymous PhillipGeorge©2015 November 21, 2015 10:22 PM  

it's a few years ago but "high end" assassins purportedly are trained to pirouette and work concentrically outwards. The killer at Port Arthur has the highest kill to wound ratio of any false flag in history, [One of the few survivors did play dead - shot in the neck - the killer apparently was not interested in confirmation of kill and quickly moved on to new targets].
Joe Vialls died youngish but got his assessment out. A journalist who knew too much

Blogger Rob November 21, 2015 10:35 PM  

"VD, do you have any thoughts on the age factor? Say a guy's pushing 50 years old. Granted, he's still pretty fit but has never done MMA before. Is there any point in starting now?"

It's never too late to make your life better.

Anonymous BigGaySteve November 21, 2015 10:36 PM  

This week on Dr Who, An alien that cross dresses because the women of its species are more valuable provides the vital clue in a murder in a alien refugee camp in London , ripping off of the Harry Potter hidden streets.. Since the entire season so far seems to be pro refusegee I wonder when it was filmed.

Blogger Guitar Man November 21, 2015 11:05 PM  

What does that have to do with this post?

OpenID paworldandtimes November 21, 2015 11:30 PM  

a weapon on full auto is mostly good for turning ammo into noise.

US Army learned that in Vietnam, which is why in the 1980s they developed the M16A2 that does a three-round-burst rather than the ammo-wasting full auto.

PA

Blogger Phillip George November 21, 2015 11:53 PM  

perhaps preemptive candle lit vigils. If popular night spots employ groups doing candle lit vigils infront of them, condolences cards and fading flower arrangements potential Jihadis will pass on by thinking that place has already been done.

shmuck and awesomeness techniques

OpenID sigbouncer November 22, 2015 12:01 AM  

A person with a knife and intent wins against a gun from 18 feet the majority of the time.

If weaponless a nice trick is to extend your fingers (you get an extra 4-6 inches of reach this way) and go for the eyes and throat. Throwing something at the aggressor, even your own shoes, as you make your move to attack can be effective.

Learning and training pressure points is always good. ST9 and GB20 are two very effective striking areas. But don't get carried away with all pressure points. As many are not effective, nor can be performed accurately on a non compliant opponent.

Bottom line here. If you're not actively training or have prior trainings/experience in jobs such as bouncing, bodyguard work, mma, sanshou etc. Which require immediate action and decision making from a physical standpoint. Ones chances of surviving against armed individuals with intent and no remorse are slim. Experience is needed in some form of full contact fighting for muscle memory if nothing else.

The best advice is be aware of ones surroundings at all times. Get good at this and you are not likely to be in the wrong place at the wrong time more often than not.

Blogger Phillip George November 22, 2015 12:03 AM  

better still have everyone swear allegiance to the venue by having a shot of tequila on the way in and a pork cabana h'orderve. No-one could sneak a weapon through a vetting process like that.

Blogger SciVo November 22, 2015 12:39 AM  

OT: ISIS Delenda Est

Anonymous Leonidas November 22, 2015 1:07 AM  

@2

Say a guy's pushing 50 years old. Granted, he's still pretty fit but has never done MMA before. Is there any point in starting now?

One of my instructors started when he was 40. It's never too late. You can improve up until the day you die. I would recommend finding an instructor who has had older students before, though. Age changes your body, and having an instructor who understands that is helpful.

Anonymous Leonidas November 22, 2015 1:08 AM  

And my oldest active student just turned 63.

Blogger Were-Puppy November 22, 2015 1:43 AM  

@15 sigbouncer
A person with a knife and intent wins against a gun from 18 feet the majority of the time.

If weaponless a nice trick is to extend your fingers (you get an extra 4-6 inches of reach this way) and go for the eyes and throat. Throwing something at the aggressor, even your own shoes, as you make your move to attack can be effective.
---

I learned to throw 2 or 3 knives while lunging behind them with a 4th.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother November 22, 2015 2:07 AM  

Or make double knifehands.

Blogger SirThermite (VFM #0025) November 22, 2015 2:14 AM  

Definitely one of the most interesting Brainstorm sessions I've attended. The two tactical and counter-terrorism veterans who shared their knowledge (whose given names I'm refraining from mentioning even if they sounded like aliases based on Rainbow Six) both carried on like the consummate professionals they are even after your feed crashed. My utmost respect, gents. Thanks for providing thoughtful information that could save my life someday, or at the very least, additional incentive to harden my own mindset like prior Brainstorm guest Mike Cernovich has also spoken about.

Anonymous rienzi November 22, 2015 3:29 AM  

Back in the Vietnam era, while in the Navy, for about a year, I worked for a Seal who had been pulled out of the country. We never found out why, but he had a chest full of medals and decorations that would put a Napoleonic field marshal to shame.

We bugged him about "the best weapon" to which he told us: "Your feet". "If you find yourself in a dangerous situation, or in an unexpected fight, run away." "Never fight except totally on your own conditions." "Shoot from ambush, and preferably shoot them in the back."

Not the type of thing a bunch of young guys with raging testosterone wanted to hear.

Blogger Phillip George November 22, 2015 3:35 AM  

might not work quite every time but Nancy Wake, Special Operations Executive, WWII, is credited with breaking a German neck by just thrusting up under the man's chin with sufficient force - C1, C2 spinal # is more or less instant death.

+ being approached by a woman might just have given her the "element of surprise"

not withstanding the above, we know from reading the MSM that nothing is more disarming than telling your assailants you respect their opinions. Always good in a fire fight.

the other thing to do is simply yell "allah hu akbar" and start randomly trying to kill those immediately around you. There after recite a few Koranic texts and you should in a safe space called Europe.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling November 22, 2015 7:05 AM  

US Army learned that in Vietnam, which is why in the 1980s they developed the M16A2 that does a three-round-burst rather than the ammo-wasting full auto.

And now the Army is moving back to full auto capable M4A1s, for reasons I haven't investigated, although I've heard the 3 round burst trigger pull in semi-auto is awful.

Anonymous Outrun Your Friend November 22, 2015 7:23 AM  

Eagles of Death Metal has spoken out for the first time since Islamist gunmen opened fire during their performance at the Bataclan concert hall as part of six coordinated terror attacks in Paris.

"People were playing dead, and they were so scared," he added. "A great reason why so many were killed is because so many people wouldn't leave their friends.

Blogger Hammerli280 November 22, 2015 7:31 AM  

@25: I've heard the same reports about the three-round burst. Very inconsistent trigger pull. And it's a feature not needed by well- trained troops.

Blogger JACIII November 22, 2015 7:50 AM  

@27 It's a feature not needed in .308.

Anonymous Whitey McWhite November 22, 2015 8:24 AM  

rienzi: "Never fight except totally on your own conditions."

Draw the logical conclusion as to what unarmed Western civilians should do when attacked by surprise by well-armed and trained jihadis.

Anonymous Godfrey November 22, 2015 8:51 AM  

Unlike the movies, hitting a moving target is difficult.

Blogger roundeye November 22, 2015 9:35 AM  

Computer froze up? Should get a Mac (hehehe).

Blogger Were-Puppy November 22, 2015 9:43 AM  

@23 rienzi
We bugged him about "the best weapon" to which he told us: "Your feet". "If you find yourself in a dangerous situation, or in an unexpected fight, run away."
---

This is the same advice I've gotten from many martial art instructors, especially when knives are involved. They say they teach us the knife in case our backs are against the wall.

Blogger Were-Puppy November 22, 2015 9:45 AM  

@24 Phillip George
might not work quite every time but Nancy Wake, Special Operations Executive, WWII, is credited with breaking a German neck by just thrusting up under the man's chin with sufficient force - C1, C2 spinal # is more or less instant death.
---

May have been a fluke, but who knows? I once was in a fight and hit a guy with a really good uppercut and it knock him out for a few seconds.

But getting into that area, you're trying to get right into the persons centerline and have that opening. Not as easy as it sounds.

Blogger Nathan Bissonette November 22, 2015 10:19 AM  

Ditto the transcript request.

Blogger Nathan Bissonette November 22, 2015 10:19 AM  

Ditto the transcript request.

Blogger Artisanal Toad November 22, 2015 10:25 AM  

@23 +100

Always assume they're smarter than you.
Always assume they've got contingency plans you haven't thought of yet.
Always assume Mr. Murphy has a special plan just for you.
Mr. Murphy does not care about your hopes, dreams or family.

Blogger VD November 22, 2015 10:29 AM  

I bought my membership too late.

Send me your email please. I thought I got all the invites out to the new members in time. Please also check your spam trap.

Anonymous elmer t. jones November 22, 2015 10:41 AM  

You're gonna laugh but as a tall man I have received threats my entire life. I say threats because 99.999% of the time they are just chest-thumping at me. The guys who make these gestures don't phase me because I know from experience they are not going to do a damn thing. They are expecting me to return the bluster but acting cool and collected unnerves them. I am unafraid of the overt badass because he depends on getting a frightened reaction out of his targets.

But one simple tactic that prevents this nonsense is simply to dress well. Tough guys will bluster at other men who are poorly dressed. If you wear tshirts to show off your muscles you will attract morons, not women. A fine pair of gabardines, a classy shirt, and matching shoes and belt will ward off most self-preceived tough guys. Strange but true. Maybe because it puts you out of their social class.

It's the quiet unpretentious men who get my defense posture up. The biker, the gangbanger, the musclehead have signaled that they are "badasses" and won't risk having that carefully crafted persona destroyed by getting publicly humiliated by John Q. Milquetoast. Let them bluster and they won't harm you.

I have spent much of my life around urban blacks and Mexicans so have had to fine tune my response to these threats. Watching other guys handle it with aplomb was certainly instructive. Bullies won't launch a direct attack on a guy who is centered and unreactive to their macho displays.

Frankly I am terrified of HIV and would not mix it up with a stranger if running from it was an option.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2015 11:05 AM  

"Frankly I am terrified of HIV and would not mix it up with a stranger if running from it was an option. "

you know they sell boots now specifically rated to protect your feet from the tainted blood of the hippies you're stomping.

Anonymous elmer t. jones November 22, 2015 11:12 AM  

Wasn't trying to sound like Chuck Norris. I am getting old but still have to to deal with it. If I were to actually punch someone in the face in a real fight it would probably break my knuckles.

Even a minor amount of training and awareness could make the difference in a real situation. Distancing myself from the threat would be my first instinct. Avoiding many pubic venues in the first place is good prevention.

I think a lot of assault crime happens around retail store parking lots. Convenience stores also seem like a magnet to predators and imbeciles. I take my wife to the market and wait for her in the car. I see all manner of riff-raff prowling around on foot and in cars. Unfortunately her main Asian market is next to a public transit drop-off so I always go with her. I get approached by the bums as I sit there waiting for her. If there is a security guard or vehicle at a store you know they have had problems.

I am getting a revolver for concealed carry. I have avoided it all these years from the dread of knowing that I would probably end up using it and thinking an ass-beating would be preferable to the legal consequences of shooting someone.

Anonymous The Kurgan November 22, 2015 12:34 PM  

Geoff. Yes. Start. And I am getting close to 50, but no young jihad punk with a gun is going to delude himself I am an old harmless man unless he hits the detonation vest before I get to him.

Blogger Jack Hanson November 22, 2015 1:17 PM  

Hi, I'm the Jack from last night. I believe some of you had questions that we didn't get to - I'd be happy to answer them here.

Blogger Kirk Parker November 22, 2015 5:15 PM  

Jack: thanks for dropping by. I have not so much a question, but rather a plug for Jeff Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense, and wanted your take on that.

Also the observation, regarding awareness and speed: I remember reading of one guy (former military IIRC) at Luby's Restaurant who, after the assailant drove his truck through the window and then entered the restaurant, went "F*ck this!", grabbed his chair, threw it threw the window nearest him, and exited the place--before the shooting even started. Great response.

Blogger Jack Hanson November 22, 2015 6:01 PM  

Kirk,

Haven't read it, but Cooper is a decent resource. As with anything take what you can from the text, apply it in your training, and see what works for you and what doesn't.

And yeah, that's the kind of 'into the breach once more" mentality we were hitting on.

Blogger Geoff November 22, 2015 7:05 PM  

Thanks to all those who responded in the affirmative. Besides, being punched in this old face might actually be an improvement.

Blogger Curtis November 22, 2015 8:49 PM  

@2. Geoff VD, do you have any thoughts on the age factor? Say a guy's pushing 50 years old.

Many Americans still have ingrained in them the "gentleman's" rule of fighting. Most Americans could not even fathom and imagine for an instant, of shoving a thumb through the eye-socket, driving it to the back of the skull in viciousness. Don't wait until someone is trying to kill you, that yes, you can develop a mindset of extreme maiming. Mind over body. You have to develop the will. Make up your mind. And even if you have to use your teeth, it doesn't make you a pussy. Or, you can gentleman fight and die, or just lay there, and die. It took a viscous kick to the temple, crushing my zygomatic bone, that fortunately, I instantly developed that will, that saved my life. And I will never forget it.

Blogger Carl Philipp November 24, 2015 10:05 PM  

@37
Sent an email 2 days ago; hope it didn't get caught in your spam filter. Also, in the previous thread, somebody else posted right before the event started that they didn't get an email invitation.

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