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Saturday, November 07, 2015

Hitler's 125 IQ

It's rather remarkable to see that the entire Nazi leadership was nearly a standard deviation more intelligent than the average Ashkenazi Jew, especially when we are so often informed that the reason for Jewish success is their exceedingly high level of intelligence. That being said, I suspect the average IQ of the current Israeli leadership is even higher; the same clearly cannot be said of the current U.S. or German leaderships.
As I recall from what I’ve read on Hitler and internal Nazi politics, of the above list, particularly “close associates” of Hitler would include: Goering; Ribbentrop; Speer; and until his “betrayal,” Hess. Their average IQ is 129.

While there was never much love lost between Hitler and the German military establishment, the closest military connection to Hitler from that list would be Keitel, who was infamous for his toadying behavior towards the Fuhrer. His IQ also happened to be precisely 129.

(Incidentally, while Jodl is regarded as far more competent than Keitel – he is the guy who actually made OKW command structure run – it’s interesting to note his IQ was actually lower than that of his boss, if marginally so).

In practice, Goering’s IQ during his time as Nazi bigwig might have actually been lower, due to his morphine addiction. On the other hand, there are suspicions that Speer was in fact considerably cleverer than his test scores indicated, because he was playing the “dumb dreamer architect” type so as to pretend ignorance of the death camps and avoid execution (if so he was successful). So these two factors might cancel out.

Adjusting for the Flynn effect – but only modestly, since the most useful (not rules-dependent) forms of intelligence haven’t improved all that radically, and we have an IQ of around 125 for Hitler normed to today’s Greenwich standards.
While I was initially skeptical of the idea of estimating Hitler's IQ by those of his associates, on second thought, the fact that the average IQ in the Digital Ghetto was above 140 forces me to admit that it's not a completely unreasonable basis for an estimate. It also fits with the available evidence; it's pretty clear from reading Mein Kampf that Hitler was bright, but not highly intelligent.

For obvious reasons, the most successful popular leaders tend to be within the 30-point communications window of the norm. I would expect that Stalin was north of 130 IQ, both on the basis of his writing and his erratic, introverted behavior; unlike Hitler and Churchill, he had no need to rely upon personal popularity with the masses.

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65 Comments:

Anonymous Difster November 07, 2015 8:37 AM  

I wonder if there is any correlation between IQ and a tendency toward sociopathy.

Blogger Cataline Sergius November 07, 2015 8:50 AM  

Interesting.

So much for the Hitler as mad genius thing.

Blogger ncartist November 07, 2015 8:52 AM  

Having seen a few of Hitler's artworks and reading that he had completed approximately two thousand watercolors within a two year period before applying to the art academy, I reckon Hitler was an intelligent man, a hard working, dedicated person, and a capable artist. The excuse the academy used to reject him was that his work was uninspired: that is a vague, hard to prove/disprove, even explainable reason; and it is not one any school can justify using for an entry position: an academy is about training and education. The rejection excuse makes me wonder about the tribal makeup of the intelligentsia governing the school: no goyim allowed?

From what I've seen, I'd say Hitler was a better artist than most of the "artists" who have graduated from universities in the past few decades.

Blogger Cataline Sergius November 07, 2015 8:52 AM  

@1, Possible.

After all sociopaths are made not born. And if you are a high IQ child, you are automatically a white monkey, to the other children.

Blogger S1AL November 07, 2015 8:58 AM  

Vox, why don't you believe Churchill to be particularly intelligent? Genuine question. From his writings and various verbal commentary I've always thought he was, at minimum, incredibly insightful.

Blogger ncartist November 07, 2015 9:17 AM  

@4
After all sociopaths are made not born. And if you are a high IQ child, you are automatically a white monkey, to the other children.

Correct.

Anonymous NateM November 07, 2015 9:19 AM  

Seems pretty reasonable that Hitler's IQ would at least be close. He may not have been a great tactician, but he WAS a great manipulator of people. And he seemed to handpick men around him who he could manipulate and use to his own ends. To do that he'd have to be at LEAST at their level of intelligence, and/or have some great leverage over them, and if they were more intelligent than he, probably both.

Anonymous Suburban_elk November 07, 2015 9:30 AM  

125. Not bad, old man, not bad at all.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother November 07, 2015 9:34 AM  

I think the Holocaust is the art academy's fault.

Blogger ncartist November 07, 2015 9:45 AM  

9. Stg58/Animal Mother
I think the Holocaust is the art academy's fault.

Hitler could have been one of the twentieth century's foremost artists...who's to say otherwise given the history of the past century's art.

Blogger Matamoros November 07, 2015 9:57 AM  

Thought I read somewhere that Hitler was about 160 IQ. Given his various abilities in many areas, this would not surprise me - architect, artist, military genius, rebuilding the German economy, etc.

Again, the two latest and best books on this seem to be John Mosier's "Hitler vs Stalin 1941-1945", and R.H.S. Stolfi's "Hitler, Beyond Good and Evil"

Of course given that a 100 IQ was regarded as normal in the U.S. back when, and it has been upgraded (as noted), somewhere between 140-160 normed for current U.S. standards would seem to about right.

Stalin was a low grade killer in a State Bolshevik where murder was the norm. He connived his way to the top against Trotsky - whom he had killed - and killed millions in his gulags.

Mosier goes into his "military genius" and finds him lacking greatly. The Soviets lost 30 million men to Germany's 2.5 million (on all fronts for the entire war). Hardly a genius.

The Bolsheviks/Communists killed, according to accounts I've read, about 120 million Russians, Ukranians, etc. This is why Russia now does not have the population to flesh out a major military.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother November 07, 2015 10:02 AM  

I think the Holocaust is the art academy's fault.

Anonymous RedJack #22 November 07, 2015 10:03 AM  

@1 Vox posted something like this once. The definition of "imbecile" used to be around 80 IQ, or twenty points off the norm. If you have a 130, or even as someone here posted, 160 IQ, think about the difference between them and normal people, and normal people and imbeciles.

Not every high IQ person is a sociopath, it takes more than that, but many sociopaths have a high IQ. It is just one more thing to make them see themselves as not part of the society of man, or as something more than man.

Blogger Desiderius November 07, 2015 10:14 AM  

"I would expect that Stalin was north of 130 IQ"

Likewise, although IQ is not the most pertinent measure of what made him unique and accounted for his rise. He was an apex predator in the most primal sense. Young Stalin by Montefiore is a good account. Red Pill on steroids, red in tooth and claw.

Likewise, Churchill's intellect was not well captured by conventional measures. Massive holes in aptitude and understanding punctuated by tremendous peaks of intuitive insight, leavened by a tremendous wealth and breadth of lived experience. From comically awful student to first-rate experimental scientist of reality.

Blogger Rantor November 07, 2015 10:48 AM  

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Blogger Rantor November 07, 2015 10:52 AM  

ccording to Rotty at pumpkinperson.com, Hitler dictated Mein Kampf to Hess (IQ 120) who had to rewrite much of it so it made sense... It seems all the Nazi leaders tried at Nurenburg were given IQ tests. Results listed in the Unz article... Which cites pumpkinperson's estimate of Hitler's verbal IQ of 120 and performance 133.

For those of us ilk smarter than Hitler, Stalin, or Obama for that matter, what is holding us back?

Blogger The Other Robot November 07, 2015 11:05 AM  

If you have a 130, or even as someone here posted, 160 IQ, think about the difference between them and normal people, and normal people and imbeciles.

Since it takes brain mass to be able to understand social situations and have empathy of other people, I suspect that high IQ often involves a trade-off in neurons devoted to an inbuilt understanding of social situations and empathy for others vs those devoted to high verbal and performance IQ.

Blogger Hammerli280 November 07, 2015 11:07 AM  

I'm not sure I'd rate Hitler that highly. I believe Hitler to have been around 115-120. His real strength was in political triangulation, and in good estimation of his peacetime opponents. His grand strategy (I wound up doing a paper on it) assumed the opposition would not respond preemptively.

Blogger Hammerli280 November 07, 2015 11:09 AM  

@16 Rantor: Common decency. The Ilk may be Dread, but we are also Decent.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 07, 2015 11:11 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 07, 2015 11:14 AM  

Pumpkin Person recently estimated Hitler's IQ to be 130.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 07, 2015 11:23 AM  

@3, ncartist

Having seen a few of Hitler's artworks and reading that he had completed approximately two thousand watercolors within a two year period before applying to the art academy, I reckon Hitler was an intelligent man, a hard working, dedicated person, and a capable artist.

I think he was manic-depressive.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 07, 2015 11:25 AM  

In early life I'd expect he was somewhat bright and very conscientious. Probably this conscientiousness led to a nervous breakdown later on, and thereafter the manic depression.

Anonymous BGS November 07, 2015 12:12 PM  

Hitler could have been one of the twentieth century's foremost artists...who's to say otherwise given the history of the past century's art

The tribe hates realistic art, since it can be objectively rated. Much of modern art is a money laundering scheme, you need to move $10million have the recipient sell a canvas someone took a dump on.

Blogger The Kurgan November 07, 2015 12:17 PM  

@1
Shhhhh.... Don't tell anyone!

Blogger kudzu bob November 07, 2015 12:40 PM  

@4
sociopaths are made not born

A highly questionable assertion, given what we know about the genetically determined nature of such traits as handedness, introversion vs. extroversion, and intelligence. Studies of twins separated at birth certainly indicate otherwise.

Anonymous Discard November 07, 2015 12:50 PM  

There is movie titled "Max", about Hitler, the young artist.

Anonymous Takin' a Look November 07, 2015 1:17 PM  

-BGS

Yep, Lasha Darkmoon and Kevin MacDonald have both gone into detail about it.

Of course; NArspALT. Kunstler does a decent job with landscapes.

Blogger The Other Robot November 07, 2015 1:55 PM  

It is amusing that Putin has affirmed the notion that a country can act to 'protect' its co-ethnics.

Blogger Desiderius November 07, 2015 2:14 PM  

"Since it takes brain mass to be able to understand social situations and have empathy of other people, I suspect that high IQ often involves a trade-off in neurons devoted to an inbuilt understanding of social situations and empathy for others vs those devoted to high verbal and performance IQ."

Exactly. See:

http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

IQ also involves the overall facility (rate, among other things) of the brain to rewire itself (learn), So overall capacity for mastery in any field is higher, but one would still expect some people who have devoted all their resources to narrow mastery to have blindspots, and most dangerously, to underrate their severity, absent some sort of humility algorithm (such as Christianity well-practiced).

Anonymous REG November 07, 2015 2:18 PM  

23. Aeoli Pera:

Hitler was a soldier, corporal I think, in WW1. Was very angry with the Jews; because, he blamed them for the surrender. Maybe PTSD.

Anonymous Takin' a Look November 07, 2015 2:33 PM  

-REG

Actually, Hitler was very angry with the "cucks" of the day and regarded Jews as those "odd dudes with the funny hats and sidelocks"....

at least initially. The excesses of the Weimar Republic, the assassination of Walther Rathanau by his own people for telling them they had a duty to the German Goy and the rise of Jewish Bolshevism all combined to harden his heart to them.

Blogger Hammerli280 November 07, 2015 2:51 PM  

@31 REG:

Hitler wasn't so much directly anti-Semitic as anti-communist. The anti-Semitisn came from considering communism a Jewish plot.

Anonymous lsq78 November 07, 2015 3:04 PM  

@11
Hitler a military genius? Ugh. How about no? He was only successful militarily as long as he let his generals lead the show. Otherwise it's blunder after blunders mixed with stupid obstination.

Blogger Max November 07, 2015 3:09 PM  

I dont think Hitler was stupid. Stupid people do not rise to the height of political power from nowhere and having nothing. If you read Mein Kampf his thoughts are actually quite coherent even if misguided. He has some real insights into public speaking which he discovered himself (stupid peopel do not have capacity to synthesize complex knowledge like that)

He did make a lot of strategic and tactical blunders though. Especially during the War. Did he really have syphilis and his mental capacities degenerated over time? Or it was just limits of his horizons and wisdom (he stuck his nose in too many areas where he was incompetent )

Anonymous Full-Fledged Fiasco November 07, 2015 3:09 PM  

"and we have an IQ of around 125 for Hitler"

muh science

"there are suspicions that Speer was in fact considerably cleverer than his test scores indicated, because he was playing the “dumb dreamer architect” type so as to pretend ignorance of the death camps and avoid execution"

lmao. Why are you linking to this shit?

Blogger Thordaddy November 07, 2015 3:12 PM  

There is certainly a strong correlation between very high IQ "whites" (>140 IQ) and their desire for total annihilation.

Blogger kudzu bob November 07, 2015 3:32 PM  

@37
There is certainly a strong correlation between very high IQ "whites" (>140 IQ) and their desire for total annihilation.

Perhaps not as strong as you think. The IQ sweet spot for Political Correctness is probably somewhere between, say, 120 and 140. A score much lower than that means that anyone exposed to Leftist propaganda about racial and sexual egalitarianism isn't smart enough to understand it well enough to internalize it, whereas the +140 crowd that encounters Political Correctness is often able to figure out that they are being lied to.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 07, 2015 3:44 PM  

"Hitler a military genius? Ugh. How about no? He was only successful militrily as long as he let his generals lead the show. Otherwise it's blunder after blunders mixed with stupid obstination."

The well read will recognize where this comes from:

Everyone, at least everyone of enlightened sensibilities, knows that Hitler was a military ignoramus, and every bad idea affecting the German armed forces in World War II was his, while every good decision was either the General Staff’s or the sainted Erwin Rommel’s. Very often, as evidence believed to arise to the level of absolute proof, something like the above map will be produced. In effect, “Of course Hitler was a military ignoramus; see how he failed to designate, assemble, and sustain a main effort, a Schwerpunkt.. He gets an F for failure to produce Mass.”

The problem is that that’s not quite true. To a really frightening extent – especially if, like me, you’re part Jewish – many of the good ideas were Hitler’s (or he saw the merit in someone else’s idea) while many of the bad ones belonged to the General Staff or even the sainted Rommel. A few examples: Eben Emael, the Sichelschnitt through the Ardennes, the stand fast order in Russia in 1941 that saved the German Army? Yeah. Hitler. Conversely: The unimaginative plan to redo Schlieffen, expanded? Halder of the General Staff. The first halt order before Dunkirk? Rundstedt asked for it. Rommel? He never understood his place in the war in North Africa nor what could and could not be provided to him. And Kursk? Hitler thought it such a bad idea it made him ill, but he allowed the General Staff to talk him into it. His responsibility? Yes, clearly, but it was not his original lack of judgment.

Anonymous Takin' a Look November 07, 2015 3:56 PM  

To a really frightening extent – especially if, like me, you’re part Jewish – many of the good ideas were Hitler’s

No, what's truly frightening is you would have been a Shtetl of Mettle fighting for Hitler back in the day.

Bryan Mark Rigg Rape!!!

Blogger kudzu bob November 07, 2015 4:00 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Eric November 07, 2015 4:30 PM  

That being said, I suspect the average IQ of the current Israeli leadership is even higher; the same clearly cannot be said of the current U.S. or German leaderships.

Merkel is pretty intelligent, she's just not very wise.

Obama might have average intelligence. Maybe.

OpenID joeholocaust November 07, 2015 4:32 PM  

@24 This is spot on. Just another racket of the tribe
On intelligence, measuring with accuracy is a mug' game, just like forecasting GDP numbers down to thousandths of a point. While I believe that Hitler and Mussolini were more intelligent than Churchill and FDR by some degree, I believe that H&M totally eclipsed the latter two by what they were able to accomplish with the hands they were dealt and intelligence is only part of the answer to why? or how? The west has many people who would rate highly in IQ testing and yet they are so oblivious to what is going on around them or in the world. Some of those at the highest levels of power and influence seem to have little to no grasp of cause and effect or to recognize patterns or trends when they don't accord with the current fashionable beliefs.

OpenID joeholocaust November 07, 2015 4:39 PM  

@42 I think she is smart enough to know better. In her case, I think she knows exactly what she is doing. She is committing crimes against Germany and causing damage that rivals the firebombings of WWII but on a longer timeline with harder to repair damage. Merkel truly is another smiling face of EVIL and an agent of White Genocide.

Blogger rcocean November 07, 2015 6:05 PM  

If Hitler had an IQ of 125 what does that prove exactly? No one who met him thought he was dumb. In fact, all his Generals were impressed by remarkable ability to remember facts and figures off the top of his head. In real life, the ability to memorize is an incredible advantage. I have no idea how it relates to IQ, having never took the test.

Blogger rcocean November 07, 2015 6:10 PM  

I think if you gave them an IQ test, 5 of the 6 members of the 1925 Politburo would have exceeded Stalin - the only exception would be Tomsky, the only actual Russian "worker" in the bunch. Everyone else ended up dead. Guess having a high IQ isn't everything.

Anonymous Dave November 07, 2015 6:12 PM  

What I marvel at is Hitler's talent for setting traps that anyone not named Churchill would walk right into. He organized a convention of union leaders, then arrested them all in their hotel rooms. He called the SA leaders together for an important meeting, now known as the Night of Long Knives. He gave Stalin a vast expanse of Eastern Europe to lure the Soviet Army out of its well-fortified western border into an open frontier twice as long. And so on. It's like he was playing chess while every else played Candy Land.

Blogger rcocean November 07, 2015 6:14 PM  

"While I believe that Hitler and Mussolini were more intelligent than Churchill"

Naah, I don't believe that at all. FDR? Yes, LoL. Churchill? Nope.

Anonymous Rhys O'Reilly November 07, 2015 6:28 PM  

@ kudzu bob:

The IQ sweet spot for Political Correctness is probably somewhere between, say, 120 and 140.

Apart from this gross over estimation your post was spot on. Perhaps your IQ is above 140 so you estimate others higher or you've not spent much time around true believers but its those on the south side of 120 who are the biggest adherents to political correctness.

If you remember Vox posted a link a few months ago to an informal determination that there was a ceiling among the professions and academia of 120; an intelligence beyond that actually made it harder to get hired due to not fitting in with the culture. Given that academia and most professions are hives of political correctness and that they favor people above 100 but not above 120 IQ then your sweet spot for political correctness would be around 120.

110 - 120IQ is midwit territory. Smart enough to know they're better than the unwashed masses, smart enough to have been the smartest (or one of the smartest) in their school. Just smart enough to grasp the complex handwaving that makes up political correctness without being smart enough to see the holes in it.

Blogger The Other Robot November 07, 2015 6:42 PM  

the stand fast order in Russia in 1941 that saved the German Army? Yeah. Hitler.

I wonder if Paulus was not his decision as well.

Blogger Thordaddy November 07, 2015 6:51 PM  

It takes the >140 IQ "white" (deracinated Caucasian) to contemplate metaphysical certainty versus physical uncertainty and then PURPOSELY DEFER to the belief in self-annihilation.

Anonymous Joe November 07, 2015 6:52 PM  

Apologies for the O/T.
It seems that non-religious kids are more altruistic and generous than religious kids, according to some social research:
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822%2815%2901167-7

Anonymous Discard November 07, 2015 7:38 PM  

52. Joe: I saw that somewhere. Big Gay Steve was there and wrote (paraphrased), Yeah, they're generous with other peoples' stuff.

Myself, I reject most anything a psychologist says unless it's racist, sexist, xenophobic or homophobic. That's the only time when they really have to get their story straight. Otherwise, they can just make stuff up and it all be published.

Blogger Geir Balderson November 07, 2015 9:01 PM  

After Hitler had conquered France, he could have stopped, sued for piece with Britain and then consolidated and built up his empire. He pretty much had the good part of Europe. After a time, he would have had most of his super weapons such as the V2, atomic bombs and jet aircraft. In 1946 or so he could have taken the rest of the World. Easy peasy and no MIddle East problems.

Blogger dfordoom November 07, 2015 9:05 PM  

54. After Hitler had conquered France, he could have stopped, sued for piece with Britain

That's assuming Britain had a sane leader, not a bloodthirsty warmongering lunatic like Churchill.

Blogger Eric November 07, 2015 9:14 PM  

the stand fast order in Russia in 1941 that saved the German Army? Yeah. Hitler.

Hitler always gave the "stand fast" order, so when it worked out he was benefiting from the wisdom of the broken clock.

The one thing you can say for Herr Hitler is he was bold. That's probably the right attitude to take by default, but his inflexibility in posture got him into a lot of trouble.

Blogger ncartist November 07, 2015 9:18 PM  

54. After Hitler had conquered France, he could have stopped, sued for piece with Britain
The Kaiser made the offer during WWII. Britain was stopped cold and the Kaiser offered Britain a reset to pre-war conditions; at that point the Jews stepped in and offered the Balfour Agreement; the rest is history.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 07, 2015 9:53 PM  

Eric:

Not exactly. He gave the first standfast order when Wehrmacht leadership was panicking. He simply saw the problem more accurately than they did. There were, however, two offshoots of that. One was that he saw them as prone to both panic and unsound military judgment. (Which is funny because Hitler was prone to panic, too.) The other was that, because of both item one and his own better judgment in that instance, he tended to stick to stand fast when he should have. That said, it was possible for a senior officer to verbally fight it out with Hitler and, proving his point, get a standfast order rescinded.

In any case, any number of incorrect standfast orders later on doesn't change that the first one was completely correct.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 07, 2015 9:56 PM  

rather, should not have.

Blogger Hammerli280 November 07, 2015 10:18 PM  

@54 Geir:

Hitler tried to secure peace. Churchill wasn't buying.

If you dig into Hitler's grand strategy, he was well aware of the decisive influence Anglo-American seapower had on the First World War. His intent was to build a land empire that was self-contained and thus immune. Churchill understood that Hitler had to be stopped before reaching that critical mass...and was therefore not at all interested in peace.

Blogger The Other Robot November 07, 2015 11:57 PM  

This guy seems crazy.

Blogger newanubis November 08, 2015 4:44 AM  

When I see reference to I.Q. it always seems to be misleading as a measurement. For instance, if it is generally understood to be 'of superior cognitive ability' would that not also apply musically, athletically, artistically?

Also, I wonder what price tag folks might put on the of sale their own individual iq points...or what we pay as a percentage of our net worth toward buying more.

Blogger newanubis November 08, 2015 4:53 AM  

When I see reference to I.Q. it always seems to be misleading as a measurement. For instance, if it is generally understood to be 'of superior cognitive ability' would that not also apply musically, athletically, artistically?

Also, I wonder what price tag folks might put on the of sale their own individual iq points...or what we pay as a percentage of our net worth toward buying more.

Blogger JP November 09, 2015 3:12 AM  

Since it takes brain mass to be able to understand social situations and have empathy of other people, I suspect that high IQ often involves a trade-off in neurons devoted to an inbuilt understanding of social situations and empathy for others vs those devoted to high verbal and performance IQ.

You're probably right, though not in the way you think. Intelligence makes you an outcast. Being an outcast means you get less social interaction (the kind you want anyway). That in turn leads to awkward behaviour and a lack of empathy. Because why would you care whether your bully lived or died? Why would you care about "society" when "society" doesn't want to talk to you? I don't think intelligence guarantees sociopathy, rather the way in which an intelligent person is treated will turn them into psychopaths.

If I may offer my own life as an example: I scraped my way into Mensa and I am quite broadly read, so obviously I'm a know-it-all and elitist prick. Couple that with being poor, slightly overweight and not particularly good looking, and you get a kid who didn't have any real friends for most of his life. One day at school a guy who bullied and made fun of me on a regular basis had a seizure. His girlfriend and I were the only ones present and she begged me to help her move him. I told her I don't care whether he dies and left. Yes, that makes me the bad guy in the situation, but I just didn't care because a decade of hearing what a fucktard I am made me that way.

I only really got better when I met the girl who would become my wife. Now I'll go out of my way to help people or even just shoot the shit with them. One can never underestimate how important positive social interaction is to someone.

Blogger bob k. mando November 10, 2015 11:11 AM  

Hitler's main "judgment" problem was his increasing use of quack doctors as the war went on.

doctors who were poisoning him.

by the end of the war, he was using meth and opiates constantly and had drug induced parkinson's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WlJ3jax0Q0

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