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Friday, November 13, 2015

Star Wars worked

The good news is that the Strategic Defense Initiative appears to have worked well enough to deter potential enemies from planning to launch orbital missiles. The bad news is, there is a developing alternative to space-based attacks that even the U.S. Navy's superiority at sea can't do much about.
The Kremlin has confirmed “some secret data” was accidentally leaked when Russian TV stations broadcast material apparently showing blueprints from a nuclear torpedo, designed to be used against enemy coastal installations.

During President Vladimir Putin’s meeting with military officials in Sochi, where the development of Russia’s military capabilities were being discussed, a number of TV crews were able to capture footage of a paper that was certainly not meant for public viewing.

The presentation slide titled “Ocean Multipurpose System: Status-6” showed some drawings of a new nuclear submarine weapons system. It is apparently designed to bypass NATO radars and any existing missile defense systems, while also causing heavy damage to “important economic facilities” along the enemy’s coastal regions.

The footnote to the slide stated that Status-6 is intended to cause “assured unacceptable damage” to an adversary force. Its detonation “in the area of the enemy coast” would result in “extensive zones of radioactive contamination” that would ensure that the region would not be used for “military, economic, business or other activity” for a “long time.”

According to the blurred information provided in the slide, the system represents a massive torpedo, designated as “self-propelled underwater vehicle,” with a range of up to 10 thousand kilometers and capable of operating at a depth of up to 1,000 meters.
"Accidentally leaked." Right. Anyhow, this is particularly interesting because we had a submission for Riding the Red Horse vol. 2 that had to be withdrawn due to the fact that it was still under some sort of embargo by the naval service concerned. The torpedoes it described were not so massive, but they were fast and land-launched, and my impression was that they were designed to be used to deny control of the sea in places like the Persian Gulf, particularly around the Strait of Hormuz.

4GW isn't the only challenge facing the U.S. Armed Forces. The naval dominance enjoyed by the U.S. Navy since the dawn of the aircraft carrier is on the verge of ending, as the combination of aircraft-killing lasers and long-distance, land-launched torpedoes looks likely to render them as vulnerable, and therefore outdated, as battleships in WWII.

And since the United States is a maritime power, the loss of naval superiority necessarily means the loss of its superpower status.

Labels:

141 Comments:

Anonymous Quartermaster November 13, 2015 8:16 AM  

A number of years ago, John Keegan wrote a book, the title of which, as I recall, was "The Price of Admiralty." While not coming right out and saying it, he predicted the next capital ship was the Submarine. As they have become more capable, I think he had a point and is most likely right.

Blogger Hammerli280 November 13, 2015 8:19 AM  

Drawings are one thing. Hardware and software are quite another. And a mega-torpedo/mini sub will not be cheap or simple. Personally, I think the Russians are pulling another deception op.

Blogger Cataline Sergius November 13, 2015 8:20 AM  

Maybe there is something here. But I'm smelling old school Soviet Disinformation. The Accidental But Well Focused Leak is the big tell there.

OpenID paworldandtimes November 13, 2015 8:20 AM  

Ideally, the United States and Russia would cooperate as champions of Christian civilization. The second-best scenario is a balance of power between the two as rational antagonists. A unipolar world, as the past two decades have shown, is a disaster.

- PA

Blogger Tallen November 13, 2015 8:39 AM  

I would not discount space activity yet. Per Admiral Haney, US STRATCOM commander back in February: “U.S. national security space systems are facing a serious growing threat,” he added. “For example, multiple countries have developed and are frequently using military jamming capabilities designed to interfere with satellite communications and global positioning systems.”

The threat to our space-based communications, precision navigation and timing, and ISR capabilities is growing and space is no longer considered a benign domain.

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 13, 2015 8:39 AM  

The Saker asks, Did Russia just “gently” threaten the USA?

This so-called “leak” of “secret documents” is, of course, no leak at all. "This is a completely deliberate action. To imagine that a Russian journalist could, just by mistake, film a secret document (helpfully held up for him by a general) and then just walk away, get it passed his editor and air it is laughable. "

http://thesaker.is/did-russia-just-gently-threaten-the-usa/

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery November 13, 2015 8:41 AM  

Worst misinformation/deliberate leak/trolling ever.

To make your sooper sekrit plans believable to the enemy, you need to make them feel like they've had to work for it.

Operation Bodyguard didn't fool the Nazis into thinking we were landing at Calais by just flashing top secret docs at them saying "D-Day is targetting Calais. Don't tell Hitler! LOL - Eisenhower". They used a whole range of spoofed sigint and humint to make the Krauts build up a false picture in their minds and think they'd undercovered the Allies' masterplan through their own cleverness.

An enemy who has convinced himself of what you wanted him to believe is much less likely to catch on to the truth till it's too late.

Though maybe the Russians think the CIA is stupid.

Blogger BCM November 13, 2015 8:50 AM  

@7 "Though maybe the Russians think the CIA is stupid."

Well, the Cold War experience of running multiple traitors within the US has likely left them with a well founded justification for doing so.

Anonymous Soga November 13, 2015 8:53 AM  

Though maybe the Russians think the CIA is stupid.

Given SJWs in our government and SJWs like Anita Sarkesian talking to the UN about how eeeeeeevil vidja games are?

Why, I can't imagine the Russians being wrong on this one.

Anonymous Mr Hyde November 13, 2015 8:54 AM  

the entire idea of a doomsday weapon is that YOU TELL EVERYONE ABOUT IT!
-Dr Strangelove

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery November 13, 2015 8:54 AM  

BCM - could be.

The Russkies have always lacked finesse though. They're still running heterosexual honeypot stings as if it was the frickin' 50's. Nowadays, while your wife would be justifiably annoyed if you banged Anna Chapman, everybody else would high five you.

The KGB were never as good as the Stasi. Dunno if the East Germans ever had much of a foothold in America, but Britain and W. Europe was lousy with them.

Anonymous NorthernHamlet November 13, 2015 8:58 AM  

VD,

that had to be withdrawn due to the fact that it was still under some sort of embargo by the naval service concerned.

Can you explain this a bit more? How would that apply?

Anonymous Homesteader November 13, 2015 9:00 AM  

Russian nuclear sub somewhere off the Atlantic coast.

Russian nuclear torpedo somewhere off the Atlantic coast.

And the difference is...?

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery November 13, 2015 9:01 AM  

Soga - yes. But is the CIA run by SJW thickies? I dunno.

Rek - call it a covert threat if u will, and shouldn't been mistaken with disinformation

Depends if the threat is real or not. I'm sure subsea drones will become a major factor in 21st century warfare, but wouldn't be surprised if this particular Slavic superweapon turns out to be vaporware.

Also, strategically, what difference does it make? If Ivan dirty bombs a US port he's going to get an atomic wedgie care of Trident.

Blogger Salt November 13, 2015 9:09 AM  

If you cut the NWO globalists from the international scene, Russia and the US have more to cooperate on than lock horns.

Blogger Rek. November 13, 2015 9:12 AM  

@ Steve 15:

It isn't anything different than Putin laughing on german TV when asked about Nato's missile defense system. It's a game of you know that I know and I know that you know, just in case everybody wasn't sure.

Blogger Nate November 13, 2015 9:18 AM  

"The naval dominance enjoyed by the U.S. Navy since the dawn of the aircraft carrier is on the verge of ending, as the combination of aircraft-killing lasers and long-distance, land-launched torpedoes looks likely to render them as vulnerable, and therefore outdated, as battleships in WWII."

They were out dated 10 years ago. there is a reason the term "Missile magnets" exists.

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau November 13, 2015 9:19 AM  

Dr. Pournelle's Co-Dominium resurrected.

Blogger Nate November 13, 2015 9:20 AM  

"The Russkies have always lacked finesse though. They're still running heterosexual honeypot stings as if it was the frickin' 50's. Nowadays, while your wife would be justifiably annoyed if you banged Anna Chapman, everybody else would high five you."

Dude.

No.

I don't know where you got this from... but the KGB doesn't do finesse? one could argue that the entire social justice movement was tied to KGB operations dating back to the 50s.

Blogger Were-Puppy November 13, 2015 9:22 AM  

When I read this, I had a Pavlovian response to get into the hallway, get on the ground, bend over, and kiss my @ss goodbye.

Blogger James Dixon November 13, 2015 9:25 AM  

> The Saker asks, Did Russia just “gently” threaten the USA?

I don't think there's anything "gentle" about it. But all they're doing is attempting to restore the status quo of mutually assured destruction. With our current incompetents in office, I can see why Russia might think we'd try a first strike.

> Though maybe the Russians think the CIA is stupid.

That's been a historically safe bet to make.

Blogger bob k. mando November 13, 2015 9:27 AM  

VD
since the dawn of the aircraft carrier is on the verge of ending, as the combination of aircraft-killing lasers and long-distance, land-launched torpedoes looks likely to render them as vulnerable, and therefore outdated, as battleships in WWII.


i'm not actually sure these supersonic torps are a major threat to a carrier.

sure, one carrying a nuke is a threat to a ( whole ) carrier ( group ).

but i don't know that the guidance systems up are to targeting through the hypersonic bubble. if you note, the early cavitating torps were inertial guidance only, newer ones are thought to be terminal guidance ( what, if any, system is used earlier in the pathing is not noted ).

my guess is that there are significant difficulties in crossing the shock barrier in order for the torp to observe the outside world. as such, a cavitating torp would only be a threat to an individual ship if fired Line of Sight.

what a hell of threat, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

Anonymous Trimegistus November 13, 2015 9:27 AM  

Thing is, anything which can end US maritime supremacy also makes it possible to deny everyone else maritime supremacy. If the US can't project power to the China Sea . . . then neither can China.

Anonymous Nathan November 13, 2015 9:28 AM  

@5

Different type of threat. Disruption of comms isn't the same as death from above (denial vs destruction), not to say that it doesn't cause problems and lethal ones on the battlefield at that. Or wider problems to the economy. For instance, a merchant really doesn't want to be using a satellite line to process transactions if the satellite is over Korea and it's Dear Leader's Birthday...

OpenID malcolmthecynic November 13, 2015 9:29 AM  

The good news is that the Strategic Defense Initiative appears to have worked well enough to deter potential enemies from planning to launch orbital missiles.

Hold on...I was reliably informed in AP U.S. History that Reagan only thought it would work because he had Alzheimer's and was crazy. He can't possibly have been right. Surely you jest?

Blogger Salt November 13, 2015 9:30 AM  

one could argue that the entire social justice movement was tied to KGB operations dating back to the 50s

Yuri Bezmenov said that, prior to the Soviet demise, a KGB study was done as to the effectiveness of the pan they unleashed back in the late 40s, early 50s. They were astounded as the results were beyond their wildest expectations.

Years ago, Pravda said to the west and the US in particular, "don't go down that road". Made me laugh as that road had been paved, signs pointing "this way", all along by the old Soviet regime. The US is/has become a global destabilizing force - brought to you by the KGB.

Anonymous 0007 November 13, 2015 9:31 AM  

IIRC the US had nuc torps way back when, although they were really designed as deep-strike anti-sub weapons. My memory says they were in the .5-1.0 kiloton range. Shooting one into a port-city would certainly have been a day ruin-er for anyone living there.

Anonymous Soga November 13, 2015 9:32 AM  

Where is the GDI and their ion cannon satellite when we need them?

Blogger DadOfTen November 13, 2015 9:34 AM  

Seeing as how the USA and Russia have had suitcase nukes and nuclear artillery shells since before Ronald Reagan, isn't it ridiculous to assume that this is the first time they were loaded into the payload of a torpedo?

As far as I know the Russians came up with the supercavitating torpedo (VA-111 Shkval) first capable of going over 200 knots or 370 km/h. Wikipedia says it was initially designed for a nuclear warhead. So I have no doubt they know how to deliver a nuclear torpedo. This is grade school stuff for them. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery November 13, 2015 9:35 AM  

Nate - yes, their psyops and long term propaganda campaigns were clever. It's the bread and butter stuff, like recruiting and running agents and collecting info, where they weren't so effective. Crude bribery and sex stings were/are their usual tools. That's the spying equivalent of Nigerian email fraud.

The KGB wasn't great at slipping people past MI5 and DST. That's why they outsourced much of that work to the Stasi in the W. European theatre. Those devious Germans were a lot better at human intelligence.

Anonymous DT November 13, 2015 9:36 AM  

Meh...I've been around too long to believe Russian weapons claims until there's some hard proof. They are capable of building good equipment. But usually later then anticipated, in fewer numbers then projected (when the system is actually good), and with key weaknesses that render them at best a match for what the U.S. had 10-20 years ago.

Doesn't mean there aren't very real threats to the U.S. at multiple levels. Just that I'm not sure I buy a radar evading, sonar evading, attack sub evading, super sized nuclear warhead torpedo that travels with an escort of sharks armed with lasers on their foreheads.

Besides, striking a nation's sea port in any way with a nuke or radiological bomb is a good way to trigger a massive retaliatory nuclear strike. Having a torpedo like that doesn't mean Putin is willing to invoke the wrath of an Ohio class ballistic missile sub.

That is, of course, if he's not on the defensive because someone like John "we need a war" McCain (D) convinced America that oppressing ethnic Russians from self determination was a good idea. If we do ever put Putin in a corner over something he really cares about...well...Fallout 4 is good training material I guess for citizens of both nations.

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery November 13, 2015 9:42 AM  

DadOfTen - the Russians came up with the supercavitating torpedo (VA-111 Shkval) first capable of going over 200 knots or 370 km/h. Wikipedia says it was initially designed for a nuclear warhead

Used to great effect in Tom Kratman's excellent Carrera novels.

Tom Kratman books are like Tom Clancy's novels after an experimental testosterone injection caused them to grow massive atomic balls.

Blogger Cail Corishev November 13, 2015 9:42 AM  

They were out dated 10 years ago. there is a reason the term "Missile magnets" exists.

Yeah, it's surely been at least that long since I read a War Nerd article about a war game where a USMC general wiped out the US fleet in the Persian Gulf with some fishing boats.

Blogger VD November 13, 2015 9:55 AM  


Can you explain this a bit more? How would that apply?


We got a submission. We were going to run it. Then the author contacted us and informed us that his superiors told him that he could not run it, as the information was not for public disclosure.

Blogger Dexter November 13, 2015 9:58 AM  

They've been predicting the end of the aircraft carrier since 1945... but the aircraft carrier has always adapted.

If your aircraft carrier is within range of "land-based torpedoes"... you're doing it wrong.

Blogger Orville November 13, 2015 9:59 AM  

I don't think there's anything "gentle" about it. But all they're doing is attempting to restore the status quo of mutually assured destruction. With our current incompetents in office, I can see why Russia might think we'd try a first strike.

This. There is a contingent in the US that no longer believes in MAD and is pushing for a first strike. The Russian leak makes sense to try and reaffirm MAD to the US regardless of whether it is vaporware or not.

Personally, this looks far more doable than the various SDI schemes of brilliant pebbles or lasers. Stripping out life support and crew spaces would greatly reduce the size and cost. Reactors have been downsized and simplified for unattended space based systems for a further reduction in size. The Russians have mastered the downsizing of nukes for their MIRV'd rockets, so a 1 MT bomb could easily fit on the passenger side of a mini-Cooper.

Heck, you could even park one of these bad boys on the bottom of a harbor and leave it there, and trigger it months later with an ELF signal since you don't need to surface to receive those.

Blogger James Dixon November 13, 2015 10:05 AM  

> i'm not actually sure these supersonic torps are a major threat to a carrier.

They not for use against carrier groups. They're for use against coastal cities. They're a deterrent threat.

Blogger ncartist November 13, 2015 10:09 AM  

18. Nate November
I don't know where you got this from... but the KGB doesn't do finesse? one could argue that the entire social justice movement was tied to KGB operations dating back to the 50s.

Correct. The Peace Movement during the Reagan administration was also a Soviet operation.

Blogger Dexter November 13, 2015 10:14 AM  

There is a contingent in the US that no longer believes in MAD and is pushing for a first strike.

Pshaw. I am more concerned about the contingent that no longer believes in the United States, and is pushing for nuclear disarmament.

Blogger Dexter November 13, 2015 10:15 AM  

And of course, the Russians never believed in MAD.

Blogger Orville November 13, 2015 10:19 AM  

And of course, the Russians never believed in MAD. I'm not saying they did. They did and still do have a massive civil defense system, while we arguably haven't had one since the mid-60's.

I'm just saying in the game of poker a good bluff is just as good as a good hand.

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales November 13, 2015 10:29 AM  

@27

"Where is the GDI and their ion cannon satellite when we need them?"

Nod Militant: Down with GDI!

Anonymous That Would Be Telling November 13, 2015 10:30 AM  

It's generally recognized that the Soviet implantation of "PC" and the like happened much earlier, it was the #1 priority for the US after getting diplomatic recognition in 1933, with a lot of effort preceding that. Willing Accomplices: How KGB Covert Influence Agents Created Political Correctness and Destroyed America is the best single account I've come across about it. Before buying such a book, you can look at the history of Willi Münzenberg, even Wikipedia can't or hasn't whitewashed him. Didn't matter that he was purged in the late '30s, by then the infection he mightily helped along was near fatal.

Blogger ajw308 (#98) November 13, 2015 10:34 AM  

The defector who wrote Tower of Secrets said the KGB's Special Operations Group was driving entity behind the anti-nuke & green movement.

Blogger Nate November 13, 2015 10:41 AM  

"They've been predicting the end of the aircraft carrier since 1945... but the aircraft carrier has always adapted."

the aircraft carrier has been obsolete for about 15 years. At a minimum.

Blogger Cataline Sergius November 13, 2015 10:41 AM  

@16 Nate

They were out dated 10 years ago. there is a reason the term "Missile magnets" exists.

You can find the first of the "Aircraft Carrier is Obsolete" articles dating from 1946.

There has always been some new wonder weapon that is going to take them out.

The interesting thing is that it's quite possible all of them could have worked.

Nobody tried. It wasn't worth it to anybody. Destroy a strategic asset of the United States and congratulations you are now a strategic threat. Nobody wanted to find out what was contained in that mystery can.

Regardless, I am reasonably confident that the Navy can handle high tech near peer threats. They are built for it. Its the 3GW world they live in.

What they aren't built for is low tech. In the run up to OIF, they hauled General Van Riper out of his vat of rubbing acid and had him play the war-gaming OPFOR. The Ripper blew the battle plan completely out of the water by using nothing but low tech methods that were heavily reliant upon field expedient, field martyrdom operations.

In effect brining 4GW to the open water.

Eventually they fired the Ripper and they were right to do so. Saddam didn't have that kind of pull with jihadists.

But the Caliphate does and actually wants to be viewed as a strategic threat to the United States. I have short story along those lines called, Third Wave. Waves of water borne Jihadists attacking a US carrier task force, in a modern kamikaze martyrdom op.

Blogger Nate November 13, 2015 10:41 AM  

Aircraft carriers are a national penis extension.

Blogger Nate November 13, 2015 10:44 AM  

"There has always been some new wonder weapon that is going to take them out. "

You guys think because no one has sunk one of ours that they are unsinkable. In reality no one attacks them because no one wants a conventional war with the US.

it has less to do with sinking air craft carriers.. and more to do with not wanting to get nuked.

Blogger ncartist November 13, 2015 10:48 AM  

And of course, the Russians never believed in MAD. I'm not saying they did. They did and still do have a massive civil defense system, while we arguably haven't had one since the mid-60's.

Washington DC gleefully agreed with the peace movement (a Soviet controlled movement btw) that Fallout shelters were meaningless and everyone would die or life would be meaningless; remember, nuclear winter.

So "our" government and the elites used the monies to pay for their bunkers/fallout shelters: here and here

Blogger Rez Zircon November 13, 2015 10:53 AM  

Nate says, "I don't know where you got this from... but the KGB doesn't do finesse? one could argue that the entire social justice movement was tied to KGB operations dating back to the 50s."

One could indeed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLqHv0xgOlc

Blogger Dexter November 13, 2015 10:54 AM  

Nobody said they can't be sunk, retard.

That they can be sunk does not mean they are useless and obsolete.

Blogger Rez Zircon November 13, 2015 10:57 AM  

The other day someone pointed out (it might have been here, I don't recall) that while Europe has historically consisted of more or less the nations of today, not so the Middle East -- what we have today are, other than Egypt, Turkey, and Iran, conglomerations of tribes that don't like each other very much but have been forced to be a country together. What argument might be made for redrawing boundaries such that each tribe becomes an independent country? the idea being to shrink both the desire and the resources to misbehave -- reduce what each tribe has to work with as well as reducing frictions over "who owns this country". Thoughts?

Blogger Alexander November 13, 2015 10:59 AM  

@28

Precisely this.

This isn't supposed to be 'oh, Russia has a big scary new weapon' - at least to the people in charge of our weapons. It's supposed to be 'just a reminder, New York City, Boston, Miami, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Seattle aren't exactly invulnerable. Do you really want to risk escalation over Syria?

Especially with so much of our military is now run by people with no military experience, they're not going for subtle. They want it crystal clear while having the barest fig leaf of 'no, that wasn't provocation. Silly journalist!'

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 November 13, 2015 11:03 AM  

@38 Indeed.

Blogger Josh November 13, 2015 11:03 AM  

Nobody said they can't be sunk, retard.

That they can be sunk does not mean they are useless and obsolete.


Naval strategy has been consumed by the supercarrier in the same way that NFL strategy has been consumed by the quarterback: they're so valuable that the entire focus is on protecting them to the exclusion of almost everything else.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 November 13, 2015 11:07 AM  

@1

This is my understanding of submarines: Submarines can't take and hold sea lanes. They can *kill*, and do so spectacularly, but they can't hold ocean territory. Their primary advantage works against them this way. It's They are assassins and spies, not infantry; taking and holding something requires a visible presence, which submarines don't have and can't risk making.

Blogger ajw308 (#98) November 13, 2015 11:10 AM  

Er, I meant the KGB's Active Measures Group.

Blogger pyrrhus November 13, 2015 11:12 AM  

@55 In the modern world of hypersonic cruise missiles, torpedoes and lasers, no Navy will be able to "hold" anything....

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau November 13, 2015 11:20 AM  

The Aicraft Carrier has been obsolete since the Falkands War. It was a near run thing that none of the Argie Exocets hit the HMS Hermes. Maggie would have lost the War and been run out of office.

Blogger Alexander November 13, 2015 11:24 AM  

An EMP attack or two, a chained series of attacks on the satellite network, another advancement in laser defense...

... and we're back to the Dreadnought Races!

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery November 13, 2015 11:30 AM  

Skylark - respectfully, that is pish.

We wouldn't have been able to fight the war without aircraft carriers. Our task force would've been slaughtered without air cover.

The Falklands War proved how useful carriers are when you need to fight far away from home.

Blogger bob k. mando November 13, 2015 11:35 AM  

24. malcolmthecynic November 13, 2015 9:29 AM
Hold on...I was reliably informed in AP U.S. History that Reagan only thought it would work because he had Alzheimer's and was crazy.



really? that was a major part of my course study in ... AP Math. how much Reagan and, to a lesser extent, America sucked.

every. single. fucking. day.

a minimum of a 20 min sermon about how bad Reagan / US was. in a trig class.



30. DT November 13, 2015 9:36 AM
Just that I'm not sure I buy a radar evading, sonar evading,



don't be absurd. whale song can be heard 6000 miles away.

a cavitating torp is going to set off sonar stations MUCH further away than that. you'll probably get loop echoes from multiple trips around the planet.

that is the ( current ) problem with cavitating torps. their very use defines who sent them.

and remember, while 300 kts is VERY fast for water travel ... military *aircraft* travel at +1,000 kts. sats are faster yet.

IF a cavitating torp is sent from any significant distance
THEN we're ( the military ) going to have an 'early warning' at least as great as with an ICBM attack.

frankly, i wouldn't be surprised if the Pentagon has run some tests for cavitating torp interdiction from a supersonic bomber. after all, you drop a nuke ( big depth charge ) in front of the torp and ... bloop ... no more torp.



54. Josh November 13, 2015 11:03 AM
Naval strategy has been consumed by the supercarrier



a - *US* naval strategery. nobody else has credible carrier groups.
b - well, duh, super carriers are the next best alternative to having a large air base in theater. better in some ways, because they're mobile. until you can mitigate the impact of air power in conventional combat ( or conventional combat itself ), supercarriers are going to be a thing.

Blogger Nate November 13, 2015 11:38 AM  

"That they can be sunk does not mean they are useless and obsolete."

tell us genius... how does the super carrier help you fight a 4G war?

oh right.

it doesn't.

Which is why its useless and obsolete.

Blogger YIH November 13, 2015 11:41 AM  

I'm surprised such ''nuke torpedoes'' don't already exist. They quite likely do, the technology for such (ship or sub launched) weapons has existed for oh, 60+ years or so? Several countries could have or likely did develop such weapons.

Blogger James Dixon November 13, 2015 11:45 AM  

Somewhat off-topic for this thread, but since it concerns 4GW, maybe not: http://www.techtimes.com/articles/106404/20151113/fallout-4-flaming-sword-is-real-shishkebab-gets-working-model-irl-video.htm

Vox needs to get one of these and have that picture retaken.

> So "our" government and the elites used the monies to pay for their bunkers/fallout shelters: here and here

They'd already had them long before that. The Greenbrier in White Sulphur Springs was the location of one.

Blogger Chiva November 13, 2015 11:45 AM  

The Navy is expanding its' capabilities with the LCS class vessels. Also the introduction of the over the horizon surface to surface missile to LCS vessels shows someone in the Navy is thinking ahead.

Blogger Nate November 13, 2015 11:47 AM  

"
They'd already had them long before that. The Greenbrier in White Sulphur Springs was the location of one."

Still is.

Blogger Nate November 13, 2015 11:50 AM  

I would still love to see a team put a stupid fast player at QB and turn them in loose in a true triple option offense. Teams would adjust eventually but the first few times you did it you would kill someone.. like the Wildcat

Blogger Cataline Sergius November 13, 2015 11:50 AM  

@47 Nate

I thought that was what I'd said. Apologies for not having been clearer on that point.

Anonymous Ain November 13, 2015 11:51 AM  

I would have assumed that Russia has nuclear torpedoes. I assume we have them too.

William Lind predicted that if we got into a war with China, they would nuke our aircraft carriers. Interesting.

Anonymous DT November 13, 2015 11:52 AM  

@61 Just that I'm not sure I buy a radar evading, sonar evading,

don't be absurd. whale song can be heard 6000 miles away.

a cavitating torp is going to set off sonar stations MUCH further away than that.


Exactly. That's why I DO NOT buy it :-)

The sharks with freakin' lasers...maybe. After all, PutinIsHitler(TM) and we all know evil leaders like Reagan prefer lasers.

Blogger James Dixon November 13, 2015 11:52 AM  

> Still is.

Yes, but the facilities were so obsolete I'm not sure anyone plans on using them. I suppose they could have been renovated in the past 20 years though. That's at least how long it's been since I last knew about them.

Blogger DadOfTen November 13, 2015 12:11 PM  

61. bob k. mando Excellent point. So they either launch the noisy torpedo only 100 km from San Francisco, or they launch a long range quiet torpedo from anywhere they want. It sounds workable to me either way. I bet they can make a quieter torpedo go 100 km. Or as has been suggested, drop one off on the bay floor, or accidentally drop one off a cargo ship, and have it go off later. I do know that we have very very sensitive detectors deployed to stop such things, So it would be an act of war. That's the trouble with nukes. Just deploying them gets all kind of negative press..

Blogger Nate November 13, 2015 12:12 PM  

" I suppose they could have been renovated in the past 20 years though. "

I was there in 06... and I would describe what I saw as... robust.

Blogger bob k. mando November 13, 2015 12:23 PM  

66. Nate November 13, 2015 11:47 AM
Still is.



supposedly decommissioned after the national reveal. kind of hard to maintain a 'secret' facility if you're running public tours through it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Greek_Island

of course, that doesn't address the possibility of "fake cover as cover".



70. DT November 13, 2015 11:52 AM
The sharks with freakin' lasers...maybe.


that would be more realistic.

[ /sperg ]

Blogger Matamoros November 13, 2015 12:25 PM  

The big problem with the "leaked" plans, and other Russian advanced weaponry is that it is all based on Western technology - which they have to import.

Russia is really, the city of Moscow, and the rest is fly over country. They simply do not have the high tech industry to deliver these weapons without all the Western tech and software.

Not that the Russians aren't good with computers, but first you have to have the chips and technology to work with.

Blogger James Dixon November 13, 2015 12:33 PM  

> The big problem with the "leaked" plans, and other Russian advanced weaponry is that it is all based on Western technology - which they have to import.

Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan will all be looking for another defense partner in the not too distant future when we decide we can't protect them.

Blogger bob k. mando November 13, 2015 12:37 PM  

72. DadOfTen November 13, 2015 12:11 PM
So they either launch the noisy torpedo only 100 km from San Francisco



at 300 clicks, that's still 20 min out. iow, pretty much the same warning time as an ICBM sent with love, from Russia.



72. DadOfTen November 13, 2015 12:11 PM
I bet they can make a quieter torpedo go 100 km.


um, no.

you have two separate issues.

1 - you're firing a rocket motor underwater. that's the only thing that produces sufficient thrust, there's no way around this. that ALONE would be heard by a sensitive sonar station on the other side of the planet

2 - the whole point of the cavitating torp is the vaporized water that provides the lubrication between the torp and the sea proper.

IF you go under the cavitation speed THEN you lose the cavitation bubble ... and lose all your range due to massively increased drag ... which was the whole point in the first place. note that it is a requirement that cavitation torps be up to operating speed BEFORE they first impact the water:
http://www.articlesextra.com/supercavitation-torpedoes.htm

and that cavitation bubble is also going to be a super noisy sonuvabitch.

do away with the rocket motor and cavitation bubble and guess what you've got? that's right, a conventional torpedo such as we've had since WW2.

and nobody is wetting their panties over those.

Blogger rick November 13, 2015 12:58 PM  

"They've been predicting the end of the aircraft carrier since 1945... but the aircraft carrier has always adapted."

the aircraft carrier has been obsolete for about 15 years. At a minimum."


The aircraft carrier became obsolete when submarines became more durable at sea, and their torpedoes became deadly accurate.

Accordingly, submarines are now capital ships. Carriers, are as Nate says, one big penis extension...and a means to spend money.

A friend once told me, "A submarine can survive in surface ship [carrier] dominated waters, but a surface ship [carrier] cannot survive in submarine dominated waters."

Our Navy's hubris is without limit. It thinks it cannot be beat.

He who has the most subs wins.

Blogger Orville November 13, 2015 1:03 PM  

Enough with the supercavitating atomic dildo. Your big 10Km nuke torpedo works best slowly and quietly. These things are for killing cities and ports, not carriers. We "might" be able to stop an SLBM launched offshore, though I have little confidence in the systems currently inplace. Plus they could only handle a few, not hundreds of missiles. The park and wait in harbor, or park and wait off shore of target is the ideal situation. An assassin in the trees picking off cities.

Blogger White Devil November 13, 2015 1:11 PM  

bob k. mando
and that cavitation bubble is also going to be a super noisy sonuvabitch.
As you said, with the speed of sound underwater and electronic communication, it's not stealthy. What will be stealthy is dressing the nuke up as a whale and beaching it. If someone notices the carcass is radioactive, it will be chocked up to our reckless dumping into the oceans.

OpenID bc64a9f8-765e-11e3-8683-000bcdcb2996 November 13, 2015 1:32 PM  

"Accidentally leaked." Right."
Like stealth bombers. let folks see one or two, pronounce them "invisible", and SAY you have 300 of them!
CaptDMO

Blogger Joe Keenan November 13, 2015 1:37 PM  

Nukes are useless as their use (regardless of configuration employed to deliver them) assures your own destruction.

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery November 13, 2015 1:41 PM  

What will be stealthy is dressing the nuke up as a whale

Blogger bob k. mando November 13, 2015 1:54 PM  

83. Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery November 13, 2015 1:41 PM
What will be stealthy is dressing the nuke up as a whale



godDAMNIT, Steve.

zee goggles, ze do nothing.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar November 13, 2015 2:04 PM  

Secret weapons? What is this a doomsday machine? You're not supposed to keep those a secret for reasons that should be all too obvious.
Nuclear torpedoes have been in the arsenal of the Soviet Union and the Untied States since the 1960's. There was a movie called "The Bedford Incident" made during the height of the Cold War about a destroyer that accidently launches depth charges against a Soviet submarine and they retaliate with a nuclear torpedo. They end with movie with the doomed crew waiting for the nuclear torpedo to hit them and blow them up. It was one of those Dr. Strangelove films made by Hollywood to get The United States to unilaterally disarm and let the Soviets win The Cold War.
Senator McCarthy was only wrong about how many and how high The Communists had infiltrated the United States. FDR insured that the highest levels of the Government was heavily infiltrated by traitors and moles. The jewish media was always on the side of our enemies. They're supporting Islam today because they are our stated enemy. The jews are always our enemies, no matter what side they claim to be on.

Blogger DadOfTen November 13, 2015 2:14 PM  

77. bob k. mando Interesting stuff.

Of course the real problem is why would a country want to nuke us? A large number of nukes would be insanity because we would massively retaliate. If a country could put one nuke near San Francisco and one near NYC by torpedo or tug boat and blow out our electrical grid for a few months, that would cripple us, but what does it do for whoever "them" is? Anyone capable of the act could do it and convince us terrorists did it. Buy what does any country gain? Even the North Koreans need us healthy to provide them the bribes of grain we send over or their populace dies. Pakistan, Russia, China - they all are too closely tied to us economically. Iraq, Iran, Libya? Who gains enough to do it?

Blogger Tom Kratman November 13, 2015 2:19 PM  

This is funny, in a sort of rolling on the floor way. The idea of using nuclear torpedoes to attack coastal cities and installations is from the 50s, the _early_ 50s, IIRC. The drawbacks should be obvious, as in, first you have to get a sub close enough. Yeah, yeah, "stealthy...ooo...shiny...ooo." Ever look into the submerged ranges of those various extremely quiet AIP boats. Colombia might be able to get one close enough. That they can prevent us from operating at will and safely in their coastal waters doesn't mean they can operate in or near ours. (Sure, a sneak attack is possible, but harder to pull off than it is to say, and our probable revenge would be pretty frightful, if extinction is frightful). And surprise is tough to pull off.

As for carriers and laser and whatnot. It's not that simple. In the first place, for the same reason the tank has survived and the small motor torpedo boat didn't make the battleship obsolete, the carrier will survive, too, at least into the reasonably foreseeable future. That reason? Redundant carrying capacity. If there is a defense (lasers, as previously mentioned, say) the carrier can mount it and power it. As for it's reason to exist, the airplane, there are tactical and technical and techno-tactical solutions to technical problems. Take third world country B, soon to be on the receiving end of a US punitive expedition. Let's make them cleverer than 99% of the world, and assume they've put some serious thought and money into something other than looking more powerful than they are (No, Venezuela, I am not just looking at you.) How many lasers can they afford? Enough to deploy them in full depth? One doubts. So they have a line of defense around their perimeter and maybe something around their capital region. Our problem then becomes punching a hole in that line of defense and neutralizing the capital defenses. Masses of cruise missiles? Crowbars from space? Take our losses so long as we get the hole? Nukes, so we don't have to get that close? And after the hole is punched, pour through and bomb the shit out of them.

The potential enemy's big weapon there isn't lasers, it's our own miserably and disgustingly weak and idiotic civilization's inability to deal with truth, as exemplified by losses and as illustrated by the popular reaction to (that idiot) Rumsfeld's observation that "You go to war with the army you have.".

Blogger Were-Puppy November 13, 2015 2:21 PM  

@51 Rez Zircon
The other day someone pointed out (it might have been here, I don't recall) that while Europe has historically consisted of more or less the nations of today, not so the Middle East -- what we have today are, other than Egypt, Turkey, and Iran, conglomerations of tribes that don't like each other very much but have been forced to be a country together. What argument might be made for redrawing boundaries such that each tribe becomes an independent country? the idea being to shrink both the desire and the resources to misbehave -- reduce what each tribe has to work with as well as reducing frictions over "who owns this country". Thoughts?
---

Didn't Uncle Joe Biden already travel this road? Or to put simply, why would any boundaries drawn by outsiders be different than the boundaries that are there now?

Blogger White Devil November 13, 2015 2:23 PM  

Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery
What will be stealthy is dressing the nuke up as a whale
Hot damn. I heard about the Chinese getting fatter, but I had no idea of the strategic implications!

OpenID dreadilkzee November 13, 2015 2:28 PM  

The technical changes are rendering 'superpower' to be mute.

That said to Tom Kratmen's point, one carrier could carry a shit load of drones.

Blogger Were-Puppy November 13, 2015 2:32 PM  

@83 Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery
What will be stealthy is dressing the nuke up as a whale
---

That cavitated my cranium XD - and they weren't even dressing up.

Blogger Were-Puppy November 13, 2015 2:37 PM  

I wonder what the environmental effect would be if Russia used this type of weapon against a coastal city. Would the radiation get in and disperse around the ocean?

Blogger Cataline Sergius November 13, 2015 2:41 PM  

@87 Tom Kratman

I agree with you but ...actual question here...what about going dumb instead of smart?

Use Van Riper's approach to taking down a carrier?

Blogger Noah B #120 November 13, 2015 2:41 PM  

"I would have assumed that Russia has nuclear torpedoes. I assume we have them too."

Russia had nuclear torpedoes deployed and on board subs at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis. The technology exists currently to deploy unmanned weapons that blur the lines between mines and torpedoes, remain dormant for long periods of time, and attack on command.

On the aircraft carrier subject, here's an analogy that might be helpful. Think of an aircraft carrier as a switchblade and nukes as a Glock. Sure, you can intimidate a lot of people and get your way most of the time waving a switchblade in their face. Try that with a guy carrying a Glock and you're history.

Blogger Noah B #120 November 13, 2015 2:44 PM  

Also, aerogels look like a good candidate for anti-laser armor. They add bulk but not much weight.

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 13, 2015 2:48 PM  

@29. Steve

"The KGB wasn't great at slipping people past MI5 and DST ..."

Care to give a date range for that. How long was Kim Philby feeding info to the Soviets?
How about FDR's administration eaten up to the core with Soviet spies?

Blogger Salt November 13, 2015 2:53 PM  

There was a movie called "The Bedford Incident" made during the height of the Cold War about a destroyer that accidently launches depth charges against a Soviet submarine and they retaliate with a nuclear torpedo.

Great film, the cat and mouse game played in the waters around Greenland. It wasn't depth charges the Bedford used, but a torpedo launched from its ASROC unit; a rocket propelled launching system where the torp is air guided above its target, deploys parachute, and the torp drops in the water above the target as so close a distance it cannot be evaded.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 13, 2015 2:53 PM  

Oh, you just _had_ to bring up MC 02, didn't you?

That can work, too, but there are a couple of nuances that make ir less on point than it might, at first, appear. One was that ot was, after all, a wargame hence people don't usually act as they would in real life: no danger = no friction. Then, too, because it was a wargame, players could be pretty sure it was going to involve a war in a way that you can't be sure of in the real world. No downside to pre-emption, since there was no price to pay for it. Van Riper was able to more or less just declare some things to be true that would not necessarily have been unknown to us, nor ignored by us; things like how the enemy would direct aircraft (lights, not radio) or his fleet of small boats or his huge park of cruise missiles.

That doesn't mean that it couldn't happen in real life, just that it's not as obvious or easy as all that.

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 13, 2015 2:56 PM  

Carriers are obsolete only when the enemy is technologically advanced with [a near] comparable military. They are definitely useful otherwise. Ask the congressional-military-industrial complex.

Blogger Dave November 13, 2015 3:07 PM  

@Tom Kratman - "our probable revenge would be pretty frightful, if extinction is frightful)."

I worry that our present political ruling class would lose their nerve to use nukes in retaliation. First, how long if ever to determine the responsible parties. Second, building a UN coalition. Third, what would we target

Blogger Cataline Sergius November 13, 2015 3:08 PM  

@99 Tom Kratman

Thank you. Good to hear.

My story remains reasonably sound then. Third Wave is told from the Jihadi's view point. I'm going off old Kamikaze survivor's accounts for the psychological angle.

I served under the Ripper a couple of times. Not fun. You could always tell when he was arriving as a new CG, it was invariably proceeded by mass retirement ceremonies.

Anonymous BigGaySteve November 13, 2015 3:15 PM  

torpedo or tug boat and blow out our electrical grid for a few months, that would cripple us, but what does it do for whoever "them" is?

The population reduction crowd. Even if it is small no food aid goes out to the 3rd world from the US. If its big 80-90% of the US starves to death, die verse city hit hardest. I hope everyone has at least a month of freeze dried food for the next round of black riots, when the edited video of the high on PCP groid with a knife shot dead in Chicongo comes out. Also get yourself an 8 man tent version of https://www.uvpaqlite.com/ and a water filter(or plans on how to make one from supplies at a DIY store)


And a mega-torpedo/mini sub will not be cheap or simple. Personally, I think the Russians are pulling another deception op.

The Knot See plan was to suicide mission 2 subs to deliver nukes, but the dutch kept sabotaging their supplies. The US snatched up all the top Knot See scientists at the end of WWII

They're still running heterosexual honeypot stings as if it was the frickin' 50's

They do gay underage ones also, just ask Mike Lawlor who wrote the Connecticut gun registration law.

That's the spying equivalent of Nigerian email fraud.

Dear esteemed Sir/maam. I have pictures of you snorting cocaine off a naked 14yo. Please send secretes in exchange for currencies.

I am more concerned about the contingent that no longer believes in the United States, and is pushing for nuclear disarmament

South Africa dismantled its nukes before whites ceded power, now we have a mulatto moslem fingering the red button.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 13, 2015 3:16 PM  

Dave, how long did it take us to figure out who plotting 9/11? Yeah, anonymity at that level is usually not too airtight.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 13, 2015 3:20 PM  

I suspect he'd have been a lot like KC Leuer or CW Dyke in the Army. If you loved soldiering, if your heart was in the right place, and if you weren't a total idiot or a malingering pussy, then serving under them was a blast.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 13, 2015 3:21 PM  

rather, who plotted.

Anonymous BGS November 13, 2015 3:22 PM  

a wargame hence people don't usually act as they would in real life:

In the military and in civilian disaster drills people keep forgetting that REAL WORLD INJURIES COME FIRST over fake injuries. Every disaster drill I have been in I had to resist the urge to bitch slap people. They also do an hours worth of treatment in the time it takes to write it down.

OpenID true-poser November 13, 2015 3:23 PM  

Ok, this is a strange duck.

This is primarily an anti-civilian weapon, because the US nuclear potential is hardly concentrated at coasts.
Yes, it will deal a serious blow to the coastal bases, but US has plenty of fleets and even more bases around the world.
And if nukes are out, civilians matter, but slightly. As long as ~0.1% of US population lives, it will rebuild.

It kinda reminiscences Sakharov's T-15 nuclear torpedo meant to generate devastating tsunamis, but as guidance systems advanced greatly in last 50 years, there's no sense in such a crude approach.

In case of a massive launch, SOSUS (still in place, as far as I know) will certainly pick it up, and the signature will give it out immediately.
How many supertorpedoes will be needed to saturate the defenses - hell if I know. But as you need a fleet of specially modified ships/submarines to launch them covertly somewhere near to US, usual ICBMs will hit their respective targets on both hemispheres first.

Regarding aircraft carriers. Carriers are indispensable in colonial wars (let's call things their names). They provide an isolated, defensible base for your aircraft, without any babah with a mortar and a death wish getting close and blowing up your precious planes (Kabul, 1988, for instance).

However, making a new, specialized, untested and nuclear-based solution just to eliminate CBGs is just embezzlement. Russia doesn't have that much money on this (and didn't have even in Soviet times). Granit's swarm capability was made exactly for attacking CBGs. Unfortunately, who kills whom will remain a speculation, because if such things will happen, it'll most possibly mean an all-out nuclear war and most of us will never know the outcome.

So, reinstating MAD? I'm cautiously optimistic about this. The less people are afraid of the bomb, the more chance it'll fly.

Blogger DJ | AMDG November 13, 2015 3:24 PM  

I can only hope it was Tom Mays. I can't wait for his next full length novel.

Anonymous Forrest Bishop November 13, 2015 3:26 PM  

The Russians didn't say anything about a supercavitating torpedo. (On a side note I independently 'invented' this back in the 1970's and probably still have my unpublished notes.) The "leaked" picture is probably also a diversion. (duh) A 10,000km- range torpedo probably can't carry enough chemical fuel to operate an ordinary propeller, which is what the picture seem to depict. Maybe it uses the subcritical warhead as as a thermal source. (?) Seems dicey.

But there is a very, very quiet and fuel efficient underwater propulsion system first invented by a German in the 1930's or so. The latest incarnations are used for wide-area ocean surveying and can run for months on battery. The idea is simple, it's like an underwater sailplane that blows a bit of tank to become negatively-buoyant, glides down into the depths, then shifts its CG forward a bit, adds a bit of buoyancy to make itself positively buoyant, and 'glides in reverse' back up to the surface. Each propulsion cycle can cover several km, depending on water depth. Cheap and slow, but it can also 'orbit' offshore, perhaps even for years.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 13, 2015 3:28 PM  

Forrest, check out the Meg Class SSKs in the Carreraverse.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 13, 2015 3:30 PM  

It's one of the really important reasons to run regular fairly unscripted live fire exercises, Steve; without the element of real danger all tactical training is going to give some very wrong ideas.

Blogger Dave November 13, 2015 3:33 PM  

In 9/11 we knew what planes were used, who was on the planes, and the communications from the flight that crashed in PA. Also radiation to work around. A dirty bomb in Manhattan won't be so quickly or easily sorted out.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 13, 2015 3:42 PM  

We don;t know what info we'll have collected that was ignored. Or who's going to stand up and say, "I'm Spartacus." Or any of a number of fairly mundane police techniques that may reveal it. ISTR, for example, that it's possible trace where the nuclear material came from with considerable certainty.

So three bombs, say, go off - New York, Balitmore, and LA, say - a dozen terrorist organizations claim responsibility, and we obliterate the Islamic world. What's the downside here that I'm missing?

Anonymous LurkingPuppy November 13, 2015 3:52 PM  

I would expect the ‘extensive zones of radioactive contamination’ to be far more problematic to countries whose populations and/or economies depend heavily on seafood (e.g. East and Southeast Asia, not so much the U.S. or Europe). I don't think they're aiming this paper munition at us in the West.

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 13, 2015 3:57 PM  

Guys, think oil refining.

Blogger Dave November 13, 2015 4:01 PM  

We don;t know what info we'll have collected that was ignored.

Excellent snark


and we obliterate the Islamic world.

Soon to include half of Europe.

Anonymous Forrest Bishop November 13, 2015 4:08 PM  

@113. Tom Kratman
So three bombs, say, go off - New York, Balitmore, and LA, say - a dozen terrorist organizations claim responsibility, and we obliterate the Islamic world. What's the downside here that I'm missing?

They forgot DC.

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 13, 2015 4:18 PM  

IIRC, about 65% of oil processing in these uSA is in the Texas-Louisianna coast.

DC? What would they do anything to DC?

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 13, 2015 4:19 PM  

IIRC, about 25% to 35% of oil refining is in the Texas-Louisianna coast.

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery November 13, 2015 4:31 PM  

JaimeInTexas - MI5 was on to Philby and his merry band of Bolshevik boy-lovers by 1955 at the latest. According to all accounts I've read the KGB had little success (directly) recruiting in Britain after that. Especially after 1968.

Were-Puppy, White Devil, Bob K Mando - I regret nothing!

Anonymous Forrest Bishop November 13, 2015 4:36 PM  

@110. Tom Kratman
Forrest, check out the Meg Class SSKs in the Carreraverse.

Searching on Carrera author:
Misty Carrera is the author of Big and Beautiful (3.77 avg rating, 13 ratings, 2 reviews, published 2012), The Contract (2.27 avg rating, 11 ratings, 1 r.
Um.

Author - Andrea Carrera. 46 likes • 1 talking about this. A multicultural Children's and YA Fantasy & Science Fiction author. www.carreraandrea.com
Gag.

Nicci Carrera (Author of Love Caters All) Nicci Carrera lives to write contemporary and spicy love stories with sassy heroines and sexy heroes. Nicci believes the perfect man makes lots of bread….
Getting warmer.

Inside Out [Juliet Carrera] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Fiction. Lesbian Studies. When hidden passions are brought to light and long-held ...
FFS.

Tom Kratman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Tom Kratman is a United States science fiction author specializing in the subgenre of military science fiction. [1 ... A Desert Called Peace (Carrera) Series. “He was nominated for a Hugo award in 2015.”

Ah ha. 6 Carrera books to search through and I haven’t read much SF since John Campbell died.
Is a Meg Class SSK something like this-

It had been laying asleep on the bottom of the ocean since before the last war, far from inquiring fishing nets, waiting there for coded infrasound. When that signal shook it awake, its nanoamp processor commanded the main computer on. A vector interrupt then to SURFACE switched on the ballast tank pumps for a moment, enough to give it positive buoyancy. As it glided up out of the abyss, it checked all of its sensors and systems again, not only the ones for radiation. Everything was nominal, and it still had 90% battery. Nearing the surface, it acquired GPS, and listened just long enough to receive its coded orders…

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery November 13, 2015 4:46 PM  

Forrest - Misty Carrera is the author of Big and Beautiful

I liked her other book, A DESSERT CALLED PEACE.

Blogger Christopher Yost November 13, 2015 4:46 PM  

A propulsion system akin to the "caterpillar" idea. Perhaps something like what the Sea Shadow may have.

Quietly sit and wait as the bombs-on-a-sled mosey their way to their positions and.....witness the hell on earth that is the response.

Or...

Preposition your mobile sneak-mines in the areas where the navy would likely be (aircraft have ranges so too, then, do CVNs) and....watch as you annihilate an entire carrier group and the civilian government call it "fair play".

The absolute ass-whupin' that'll ensue afterwards will be fun to watch, though.

Everybody on here is talkin' as if they're the only ones or, at best, belonging to a few that even think about these things.

Like the various branches and the planners, designers, etc., within' 'em aren't just like us except smarter.

(usually)

Anonymous BGS November 13, 2015 4:50 PM  

They forgot DC.

Baltimore DC & Phillly its one thing to hit a coastal city another to have the capacity to swim up the bays.

Anonymous LurkingPuppy November 13, 2015 5:01 PM  

@118: IIRC, about 65% of oil processing in these uSA is in the Texas-Louisianna coast.
@119: IIRC, about 25% to 35% of oil refining is in the Texas-Louisianna coast.

Yeah, but we're talking about Russia. Russia is the world's malware capital; if they wanted to strike at U.S. oil production or refining, they could do so in such a way that our local Soviet agents (both paid and emeritus) would shut it all down forever: hack the plant control systems to (a) damage the hardware and (b) release oil (or other pollution) into the environment, and the eeevil Western oil companies are at fault for the mess and will have to foul up their systems with NSA-approved crypto products (which won't help protect against attacks even when they work properly) and put in all sorts of other safeguards before they begin operating again. Or in short, a Russian malware attack could make us lose at the moral level as well as the physical level.

Whereas if Russia nukes U.S. oil production or refining facilities, they are responsible for much worse ecological damage, they lose at the moral level, and they get a thermonuclear enema for it. And then we rebuild the oil production, probably using slant drilling from on-shore.

I still see this as more effective against China and the other fishing-dependent Asian countries. The fisheries won't come back once they're nuked.

Anonymous Forrest Bishop November 13, 2015 5:09 PM  

@123. Christopher Yost

A propulsion system akin to the "caterpillar" idea. Perhaps something like what the Sea Shadow may have.

The caterpillar drive is impractical, inefficient, and noisy (heat, em, and acoustic). It probably doesn't scale down too well to torpedo size, either. The acoustic noise comes from the electric generator needed to run the thing. It's similar to the problem with ion thrusters for spacecraft- they look great on paper until you trace the wiring back to the generator.

The "underwater glider" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_glider doesn't have any of these issues. "In 2004, the US Navy Office of Naval Research began developing the world's largest gliders, the Liberdade class flying wing gliders, which uses a blended wing body hullform to achieve hydrodynamic efficiency. They were initially designed to quietly track diesel electric submarines in littoral waters, remaining on station for up to 6 months."

Blogger Christopher Yost November 13, 2015 5:15 PM  

Which is why I wrote "akin" in that sentence. ;)

Also, the best way to keep a secret is to tell people you failed.

Anyone know what the Sea Shadow is rockin'?

Anonymous Forrest Bishop November 13, 2015 5:33 PM  

@127. Christopher Yost
Anyone know what the Sea Shadow is rockin'

It used propellers.

Blogger Chiva November 13, 2015 5:39 PM  

I think the Sea Shadow was scrapped.

Blogger TheRedSkull November 13, 2015 6:01 PM  

If the Russians torpedo the coasts, they'll be doing us a favor. Neo-carry on.

Blogger James Dixon November 13, 2015 7:52 PM  

> What's the downside here that I'm missing?

The bottom drops out of the glass market?

Anonymous Quartermaster November 13, 2015 7:54 PM  

@55
Denying the sea lanes to your enemy is as important as holding them open for yourself. The Submarine can quite efficiently deny the lanes to your enemy. We put a ring of steel around Japan which did more to end the war than jumping between island chains. The Japs simply didn't have what was needed to prosecute the war. We could do far more damage quicker now. For example, we could sweep the seas of anything flying a Chinese flag within 60 days, for example, with the Red Chinese being unable to anything about it. Their entire economy dies within 2 months.

Subs will also allow you to hunt other subs. At present their sub fleet is not a high threat as, except for natural circ reactors (which we trained them to build , alas), they are still back in the 60s.

Frankly, if I'd be building fast attack subs until I could keep a minimum of 50 boats at sea in war time ops.

@65
LCS is called the “Little Crappy Ship” for good reason. So far they've been pieces of trash. Take a trip over to Commander Salamander's place and have look around. He's dealt with the mess known as LCS for several years now.

@87
That's long been our enemy's greatest weapon.

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 13, 2015 8:24 PM  

@130

Which coasts? @130

Which coasts?

Blogger Hammerli280 November 13, 2015 9:07 PM  

A couple of observations...

First, the Persian Gulf is terribly small. I can well believe someone thought of long-range torpedoes. Getting one to hit the ship you want, instead of a tanker or dhow, is another matter.

Second, CV vulnerability has been trumpeted for years - usually by people who wanted the money for their pet projects. Even today, a carrier battle group with sea room is a tough target. Give me a fully capable air wing, equivalent to 1990, and I'll crush nearly any threat.

Third, getting a large unmanned sub to work will be like getting a large unmanned aircraft to work. I can assure you that is not easy. BTDT.

Blogger bob k. mando November 13, 2015 10:24 PM  

86. DadOfTen November 13, 2015 2:14 PM
If a country could put one nuke near San Francisco and one near NYC by torpedo or tug boat



stop trying to move the goalposts.

we're talking about what is supposed to be a "new", "unstoppable" nuclear delivery system.

stealth nuclear bomb delivery ( suitcase nukes OR a bomb pretty much as big as you want in a mislabeled shipping container ) and sneak bomb attacks have been a known threat for more than 50 years.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075765/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourth_Protocol



86. DadOfTen November 13, 2015 2:14 PM
Who gains enough to do it?



i dunno? somebody tired of funding millionaire children to hold campus hunger strikes over fake racist incidents?

remember, pretty much the whole planet gives us goods ... for which we give them fake paper money / T-bills in exchange.

one day, China or India or Russia or whoever else may just get tired of playing the game.

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 13, 2015 10:25 PM  

Theatre or tactical nuclear torpedo only needs detonating close enough.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 13, 2015 10:54 PM  

DC was in the book, rather than Baltimore, but I thought getting a torpedo up the Potomac might be iffy.

Anonymous Forrest Bishop November 13, 2015 11:23 PM  

@137. Tom Kratman

DC was in the book, rather than Baltimore, but I thought getting a torpedo up the Potomac might be iffy.

It doesn't necessarily need to. Rendezvous offshore with a fishing or pleasure boat like the drug lords supposedly do with their 'homemade' submarines. There's also the ever-popular Econoline van. Which of your books has goodies like the Meg Class SSK (whatever that is)?

Blogger Tom Kratman November 14, 2015 10:06 PM  

I think they pop up first in The Lotus Eaters, then again in Come and Take Them and The Rods and the Axe.

It doesn't really matter much, but I came up with the idea of moving underseas by changing buoyancy - effectively gliding - and how to do so on my own, circa 1996 or so, while trying to solve a problem with a particular aspect of the defense of a narrow isthmus with a canal running through it. I find it kind of funny, as I do the similarities (which aren't perfect) between LSAT and the F-26 rifle.

Blogger Tom Kratman November 14, 2015 10:14 PM  

"I worry that our present political ruling class would lose their nerve to use nukes in retaliation."

I missed this the first time, Dave. In any case, that is precisely how you get a President Buckman.

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